Ninjutsu, "Ninjitsu" Teachers
kenda...@my-dejanews.com
I am a licensed Bujinkan instructor (yes, "big deal, "so what?", etc.), and I
am interested in tracing the origins of some of the other ninjutsu, or
"ninjitsu" schools on the web. My efforts at finding the lineage, history,
origins and such have been extremely frustrating, and have been met with both
hostility and far less than truthful answers to very basic questions.
With all the negative attitudes and disrespect shown to many teachers of
ninjutsu or "ninjitsu", I am seeking to "find out for myself" about schools
claiming Koga Ryu training, etc. I do not feel that the Bujinkan Dojo has the
monopoly on truth anymore than anyone else does.
To eliminate unnecessary messages, I acknowledge the legitimacy of Genbukan
Dojo under Tanemura Sensei, the Jinenkan Dojo under Manaka Sensei, Kasumi-An
Dojo under Hayes Shihan and of course the Bujinkan Dojo under Maasaki Hatsumi
Soke.
I DO NOT want to read posts from anyone screaming that so-and-so is a liar, a
cheat, a fraud, etc. The web is full of that stuff. I've already heard from
many that do not personally know any of these teachers, yet have a negative
opinion of them. I desire to give others the benefit of the doubt, and hear
what they have to say. Who I do want to read posts from are the Grandmasters,
the Sensei, and the actual students of: Ashida Kim Horano Hoshino Frank Dux /
Dux Ryu Koga Yamabushi Ryu Robert Bussey / Warrior International "Tiger"
Tanaka Ron Duncan The Nindo Ryu The Tabu Tora Ryu The Tew Ryu James Loriega
Jiekendo.Ninja.Clan / Heohomiji
I would also like for anyone claiming to provide training in the ninpo,
ninjutsu, "ninjitsu" arts to provide a post, too. Lastly, I ask anyone
responding to please be polite and respectful to the forum or newsgroup. Ken
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
LEESENSEI
Kendall, I am sure you mean well, but this is probably a very bad idea to post
this on the newsgroups. Even if your intentions are otherwize, this is very
likely just to lead to more arguing and flame wars that are completely
unneccesary. The phrase, "let sleeping dogs lie", comes to mind. There is
really no reason to bring this issue up again.
I am not trying to censor what you post etc. but by the same token, you will
not be able to control what happpens to this thread when you start getting
replies from different groups like the Ashida Kim students and the Nindo ryu
etc. My suggestion would be to let this drop and leave the other groups alone.
Leave them to their own training and just worry about yours.
If you want a little reference to how pointless this issue can become, then
just do a Deja News search on some of the different Nindo Ryu, Ninjutsu threads
that have been on this newsgroup. While such flame wars may be more
entertaining than the current trolls about Gracie Jujutsu, they are just as
pointless and ultimately harmful to all that are involved.
Anyway, that is my oppinion for all that it is worth.
Lee Drew
Birmingham Bujinkan Dojo
netl...@hotmail.com
Be sure to take the condescending attitude with you!
In article <7630qe$m90$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kenda...@my-dejanews.com
> this on the newsgroups. Even if your intentions are otherwize, this is very
> likely just to lead to more arguing and flame wars that are completely
> unneccesary. The phrase, "let sleeping dogs lie", comes to mind. There is
> really no reason to bring this issue up again.
>
> I am not trying to censor what you post etc. but by the same token, you will
> not be able to control what happpens to this thread when you start getting
> replies from different groups like the Ashida Kim students and the Nindo ryu
> etc. My suggestion would be to let this drop and leave the other groups
alone.
> Leave them to their own training and just worry about yours.
>
> If you want a little reference to how pointless this issue can become, then
> just do a Deja News search on some of the different Nindo Ryu, Ninjutsu
threads
> that have been on this newsgroup. While such flame wars may be more
> entertaining than the current trolls about Gracie Jujutsu, they are just as
> pointless and ultimately harmful to all that are involved.
>
> Anyway, that is my oppinion for all that it is worth.
>
> Lee Drew
> Birmingham Bujinkan Dojo
Well, Lee You are right again. I'm just too new to expect anything other than
being "flamed". You are correct, no matter what my intentions are somebody is
going to take it the wrong way. (case in point) I'm working towards having my
messages "nuked" ASAP. Thanks to Mats, I've known about the Koga Ryu History
in Japan for some time. With so many people claiming to be "Koga", I was
interested in finding their connection. So far, it has been mostly been
making them extremely angry. It is a complete waste of time. Thank you very
much for your concern, wisdom, and helpful advice. Being flamed does not
bother me at all, because people can get real brave and tough with enough
distance and electronic stuff to hide behind. "Every wolf suffers fleas, 'tis
easy enough to scratch!"
Gambatte Kudasai,
kage_n...@my-dejanews.com
kenda...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Greetings,
> I am a licensed Bujinkan instructor (yes, "big deal, "so what?", etc.), and I
> am interested in tracing the origins of some of the other ninjutsu, or
> "ninjitsu" schools on the web.
Here's one for you. http://www.nindoryu.com
Note the name of the school is Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai. There are nine separate
systems in Nindo Ryu - Gendai Ninjutsu is but one of them.
> My efforts at finding the lineage, history,
> origins and such have been extremely frustrating, and have been met with both
> hostility and far less than truthful answers to very basic questions.
I have met with the same frustrations, but eventually I found several
satisfactory sources. Our research section may be of help in your search as
well. Likewise you will find the reference section has several books on the
history of ninjutsu by Steven Turnbull. Unfortunately, at least one is out of
print, but I am searching for used copies. If you would like for me to
contact you when I find an extra, just email me through my web page, and I'll
put you on the list.
> With all the negative attitudes and disrespect shown to many teachers of
> ninjutsu or "ninjitsu", I am seeking to "find out for myself" about schools
> claiming Koga Ryu training, etc. I do not feel that the Bujinkan Dojo has the
> monopoly on truth anymore than anyone else does.
What a refreshing sentiment!
> To eliminate unnecessary messages, I acknowledge the legitimacy of Genbukan
> Dojo under Tanemura Sensei, the Jinenkan Dojo under Manaka Sensei, Kasumi-An
> Dojo under Hayes Shihan and of course the Bujinkan Dojo under Maasaki Hatsumi
> Soke.
>
> I DO NOT want to read posts from anyone screaming that so-and-so is a liar, a
> cheat, a fraud, etc. The web is full of that stuff. I've already heard from
> many that do not personally know any of these teachers, yet have a negative
> opinion of them. I desire to give others the benefit of the doubt, and hear
> what they have to say.
Are you sure you're posting to the correct group? :-)
> Who I do want to read posts from are the Grandmasters,
> the Sensei, and the actual students of: Ashida Kim Horano Hoshino Frank Dux /
> Dux Ryu Koga Yamabushi Ryu Robert Bussey / Warrior International "Tiger"
> Tanaka Ron Duncan The Nindo Ryu The Tabu Tora Ryu The Tew Ryu James Loriega
> Jiekendo.Ninja.Clan / Heohomiji
There's no need to rehash our story. You can find that on our "founder" page
at nindryu.com. We also have a techniques page that will give you an
indication of how we approach self-defense in the more prevelent our nine
schools. If you would like a personal demonstration of our way of doing things
in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu, please contact the Nindo Ryu dojo in your area.
If no one is near to you, then perhaps we can include your dojo as an official
stop on our next Nindo Ryu Tour of Force.
> I would also like for anyone claiming to provide training in the ninpo,
> ninjutsu, "ninjitsu" arts to provide a post, too. Lastly, I ask anyone
> responding to please be polite and respectful to the forum or newsgroup. Ken
Thanks for the open post, Ken. Hope to hear from you soon.
--
Houston Haynes - Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu
Respect the Living. Honor the Dead. Be patient. Be honest. Train hard.
And with no other choice, fight well, and persevere.
http://www.nindoryu.com/instructors/haynes.htm
kenda...@my-dejanews.com
mountain", yes? I have the book you recommend, thanks. I posted a message
yesterday withdrawing my inquiry because of the rude replies to what I
thought was a polite posting. I am impressed by your mature attitude. I
gather that too many immature children have nothing better to do with their
time and the computer mommy and daddy bought for them then to take potshots.
Hatsumi Soke urges us to respect all other martial arts, and that is at the
heart of my questions. My path is not the only one! Thank you very much for
responding like a gentleman and a true follower of the way of the warrior!
You made my day. I've checked out your website, and I find nothing offensive
at all about it. I will contact you personally to give you my URL.
Domoarigato gozaimasu!
Ken
(in order to make certain my previous message appears in this string, here's a
copy)
Greetings, After posting what I thought was a polite and respectful message
to this forum, I received nothing but negative responses to asking about the
various other "ninjutsu / ninjitsu" schools. I am a published writer, and am
currently writing a book about the subject of ninjutsu in modern America.
Since it was hard to contact many of those teaching Koga Ryu ninjutsu on my
list, I foolishly thought it would be a good idea to try to find links to
include interviews from other teachers. It seems no matter how respectful and
sincere I tried to be, I seem to have come across as some kind of attacker. I
have studied many martial arts for over 25 years, and have never seen such
venom. In Japan, I have not found anyone who can find me a Soke from the Koga
Ryu. I was obviously a complete idiot for thinking I could find someone who
would share his or her genuine information with me. I must be mentally
challenged to consider that "if they found an authentic teacher of the Koga
Ryu, then so could I". As my fellow Budo Ka understand, a martial art is dead
with no-one to keep its' past alive. I wanted to enhance my knowledge by
having an expert in Koga Ryu enlighten me with the particular style of waza
of this ancient school. A living, breathing teacher or student can best tell
me something about why this school is so unique. Instead, all I got was
anger, and (often) threats for asking simple questions. I understand that
Koga Ryu is most likely a secret school unwelcome to outsiders like myself,
yet I can readily find teachers claiming Koga Ryu certification advertising
for students. I thought only to include everyone in my book, not just the
ones I have some small experience with. Since asking for someone to interview
like Mr. Frank Dux, etc. is so very offensive to so many, I hereby retract my
inquiry. I will not defame the Koga Ryu in any way in my book, because the
ones I have been contacted by that claim to be teachers could not possibly be
true followers judging by their anger, hatred, improper language, lack of
self-control, ignorance and complete lack of manners. I apologize to all
these people that were so deeply hurt by me asking for more knowledge. I am
very unworthy and obviously stupid, so bear with me while I try to "nuke" my
previous messages. I will not post anymore! Rest assured, those who I
offended are the clear winners in this matter, because I just won't try to do
anything like this ever again. They are smarter, tougher, and I just can't
take being beat-up on a computer screen anymore. I will fight when need be,
but I can't win a fight against a puff of smoke because its' not really
there. You win guys. It should make for an amusing chapter, at any rate.
I am very grateful to Lee Sensei for his levelheaded advice. I am very dumb,
and a slow learner, so I appreciate him taking time to teach me about what
the real world of newsgroup posting is all about. I was naïve to think it was
a useful tool for gathering information. I since have learned my lesson. It
is very rare that anyone with something useful to say bothers with these
forums. I respect Lee san for being that kind of rare person.
Sincerely,
Ken
kage_n...@my-dejanews.com
kenda...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Haynes san, Thanks for the polite message. Your bugo means "shadow of the
> mountain", yes?
"yama" can be translated as either "mountain" or "death" depending on the
kanji.
:-)
> I have the book you recommend, thanks. I posted a message
> yesterday withdrawing my inquiry because of the rude replies to what I
> thought was a polite posting. I am impressed by your mature attitude.
Muchas gracias.
> I gather that too many immature children have nothing better to do with their
> time and the computer mommy and daddy bought for them then to take potshots.
I used to let myself get wrapped up in that never-ending downspout, but I
don't spend time in that element any more. Life is too much fun, and there's
too many important things to do.
> Hatsumi Soke urges us to respect all other martial arts, and that is at the
> heart of my questions. My path is not the only one!
I have a lot of respect for Hatsumi and his teachings. The people in your
orgs that I've had the honor of meeting in person were nothing but kind and
generous at those meetings. (Even amongst the venom and vitriol on the 'net,
I've managed to make a few friends on all sides of the debate, so it was not
a completely wasted effort.) I believe that is the sentiment amongst the
majority of true martial artists. What we have encountered here is a small,
vocal minority.
> Thank you very much for
> responding like a gentleman and a true follower of the way of the warrior!
> You made my day.
And you just made mine. This mutual admiration society *has* to stop. :-)
(I... I love you man! (Can I have your Bud Lite now?))
> I've checked out your website, and I find nothing offensive
> at all about it. I will contact you personally to give you my URL.
Cool. I look forward to it. I have a message out to Shihan Dai Febres to see
if he has the URL's for the Koga groups in NY. When I get them, I'll be sure
to pass them on.
Best,
Houston Haynes - Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu
Respect the Living. Honor the Dead. Be patient. Be honest. Train hard.
And with no other choice, fight well, and persevere.
http://www.nindoryu.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
xixix...@my-dejanews.com
> Respect the Living. Honor the Dead. Be patient. Be honest. Train hard.
> And with no other choice, fight well, and persevere.
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
fyi, and not a shot at Nindoryu, this is held to be an eclectic mix of stuff
rather than a traditional form of Ninpo just to place the proper
perspective.....
--
Bakeneko
Genbukan and Jinenkan, you will probably have to get a copy of the Bugei Ryuha
Daijiten or borrow one from somebody. Many people in the Bujinkan have one, so
ask around. Unless you can read Japanese you will probably want to make friends
or hire a Japanese foreign exchange student from a nearby college to help you
read and research. The BRDJ is the starting point for many researchers into
Japanese martial arts and it is very complete in it's listings. If a school
that claims to be of Japanese origin (and ninjutsu is a Japanese martial art)
is not in it, then that is somewhat like someone claiming to be an American
citizen without a birth certificate. Look up the name of any school claiming to
be ninjutsu and see if it is in the book. Anyone who thinks that there are
Japanese martial arts that the Japanese are not aware of existing should read
the article "Are you in a martial arts cult?" by Wayne Muromoto in the prior to
most recent issue of Furyu.
The BRDJ is not the final word in marital arts, being very brief in its
descriptions in order to cover all the arts. You will have to do further
research if and when you should actually find an art taught in America that is
not treated as dead or never existing by the BRDJ. Every time I look I am
disappointed yet again. As of right now, I have never found a so called
ninjutsu school outside of the three in the Bujinkan that is acknowledged by
any Japanese source or can trace itself back to Japan.
Be warned, 'gendai ninjutsu' or 'modern interpretations' of ninjutsu are
animals of a different type altogether. Out and out fakes take karate or TKD
and do it in black gis, claiming to be ninjutsu arts hundreds of years old.
Gendai (meaning modern) is the same thing, but the teachers state that this is
what they think the ninja would do today. They have no link and do things in
quite a different manner. It might be that they are decent martial arts in
their own right, but you have to ask that if they have to use the 'ninja' name
(when they have no link to it) to attract students what does that say about
them? And if they are not willing to go to the trouble of learning real
ninjutsu before using the name, how far can you trust them- especially since
they will only admit that they are not ninjutsu as we think of it when directly
asked or backed into a corner.
The problem with 'interpretations' of ninjutsu is that the quality of the
interpretation is dependent on the quality of the teacher, and in the case of
most (in fact all the ones I have seen so far) it is not good. For an example,
Houston Hayes of the Nindo ryu, head of it's websight and writer of the so-
called history in it has claimed that 'yama' can mean 'death' in Japanese.
Check that with a native speaker. This lack of competence in things like this
is only a small symptom of the problem that pervades their 'interpretation.'
Most of us would be much happier if they just claimed to be a modern martial
art and not associate themselves with the Bujinkan, Genbukan, etc and stopped
the silly stories such as their founder Carlos Febres being offered a high rank
in the Bujinkan (never happened) and such. If you want karate they may be ok,
but they are not Bujinkan and are no way like what we, or any real mainland
Japanese art, is like.
Don Roley
Ryugaskai, Ibaraki, Japan
kage_n...@my-dejanews.com
bake...@aol.com (Bakeneko) wrote:
> If you want to try to research ninjutsu schools outside of the Bujinkan,
> Genbukan and Jinenkan, you will probably have to get a copy of the Bugei
> Ryuha Daijiten or borrow one from somebody. Many people in the Bujinkan
> have one,
<snip>
Make sure you have the original edition. The subsequent revisions remove some
important observations that you only get from the original.
> The problem with 'interpretations' of ninjutsu is that the quality of the
> interpretation is dependent on the quality of the teacher, and in the case of
> most (in fact all the ones I have seen so far) it is not good. For an example,
> Houston Hayes of the Nindo ryu, head of it's websight and writer of the so-
> called history in it has claimed that 'yama' can mean 'death' in Japanese.
> Check that with a native speaker. This lack of competence in things like this
> is only a small symptom of the problem that pervades their 'interpretation.'
Methinks thee dost protest too much.
Did you notice the smiley? :-) there's no need to check with a native speaker,
Don. Anyone on the 'net with a link to the online Japanese-English dictionary
could find that out in two seconds. I put that obvious misnomer out there to
see who in the Bujinkan would jump on it. You train in traditional ninjutsu
_in Japan_ and didn't see the trap? Nice going.
Anyone that uses language skills evaluation to evaluate martial skill is
deluded. It is curious, though, that none of the standard respondants in the
US have sounded off - sounds like a conspiracy to me... :-)
> Most of us would be much happier if they just claimed to be a modern martial
> art and not associate themselves with the Bujinkan, Genbukan, etc and stopped
> the silly stories such as their founder Carlos Febres being offered a high
> rank in the Bujinkan (never happened) and such.
Your happiness depends on yourself, not the actions of others. If we do not
make you happy, then you must check with the man in the mirror, and ask why
your own happiness depends on the actions of others.
>If you want karate they may be ok,
> but they are not Bujinkan and are no way like what we, or any real mainland
> Japanese art, is like.
Nice comma splice. I would recommend English grammar lessons to go with your
Japanese martial arts training. Seems like you're beginning to forgot how to
be an American. That, of course, doesn't mean you're a bad martial artist.
> Don Roley
> Ryugaskai, Ibaraki, Japan
Peace, Happiness and Joy in your search, wherever it may lead,
Bakeneko
<<Make sure you have the original edition. The subsequent revisions remove
some
important observations that you only get from the original.>>
No, the later editions corrected mistakes that appeared in the earlier ones.
This is the purpose of later editions. All the native language speakers that I
know of say that the later the edition, the less mistakes in it. Certainly this
is why the compiler, Watatani Kiyoshi, meant to do. And in a recent trip to the
used book stores in Kanda I saw both the first edition and a couple of the
fourth editions for sale. They were all in the same condition, but the later
editions were selling for 10,000 yen and the first was only 6,000 yen.
Obviously the higher price of the later editions indicate a greater demand,
which in turn indicates the later editions are thought of more highly than the
cheaper first editions.
But then again, it is not like Houston Haynes or anyone else in the Nindo-ryu
can evaluate or read these works themselves. I have seen their history section
and it is obvious that they are not proficient in Japanese or have a deep
understanding of it's history and culture.
I must say it is nice to see that Haynes has not tried to dispute any of my
statements about how the Nindo-ryu is a karate like style created by people
with no training in Ninjutsu from Japan. And that it is merely what they
*think* the ninja would do. Despite an attack on my grammar skills, they did
not dispute what I said and that is refreshing. Of course, with no experience
with Japanese ninjutsu (outside of one seminar under Shoto Tanemura) you have
to question just how much on the mark they are, and their motives for calling
it ninjutsu, only admitting that it is their 'interpretation' when pressed. I
wish they would be more up front and refer to themselves as a modern
interpretation, rather than using the Japanese term 'gendai'.
Some people have tried to be nice to the Nindo-ryu, but no one who has had
significant experience in Japanese ninjutsu has said that the two arts are
really even close to each other. So people attracted to the art based on the
reputation of people like Hatsumi, Tanemura and Manaka would probably be very
disappointed if they showed up for class with the Nindo-ryu. Jeff Mueller
perhaps had the best description of the Nindo-ryu as compared to ninjutsu from
Japan and people like Kendall should look up his description and comparison of
the two styles. And he may want to ask Jeff as to how he was treated and how he
views his experience of participating with the Nindo-ryu tour de force. If
Kendall still wants to participate, I would suggest keeping a video copy of the
experience so that he can dispute any lies about his behavior just like Jeff
experienced. Of course, Jeff was very willing to come to the slander's school
and discus the matter with him which led to a hasty apology and retraction.
Don Roley, Ibaraki Japan
xixix...@my-dejanews.com
kage_n...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <19981230082149...@ng49.aol.com>,
> bake...@aol.com (Bakeneko) wrote:
> > If you want to try to research ninjutsu schools outside of the Bujinkan,
> > Genbukan and Jinenkan, you will probably have to get a copy of the Bugei
> > Ryuha Daijiten or borrow one from somebody. Many people in the Bujinkan
> > have one,
>
> <snip>
>
> important observations that you only get from the original.
>
--
with all do respect my nindo ryu friend, Ninpo is a very subtle art in the
higher levels and it is quite a claim to make to intrepret it into something
else...... and while you may teach a very effective ecclectic mix of things
(wouldn't know, havent it in fairness to you), but I would be very dubious as
too how much of a resemblance to Ninpo it really has.....
i would one would like to hear what actual Ninpo training you've had and how
you then interpreted it into Nindo.....
Bear in mind it is not my intention to embarrass or insult you, in fact
despite all the grief I give TKD and GJJ, I like to see the Ninpo community
free of all the bickering they suffer from and would like to offer you an
oppurtunity to explain your origins to allow the rest of us some clarity
regarding your background....
zeeb
Ellis Amdur
(Bakeneko) wrote:
> Houston Haynes, writing about the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, stated,
> <<Make sure you have the original edition. The subsequent revisions remove
> some
> important observations that you only get from the original.>>
>
> No, the later editions corrected mistakes that appeared in the earlier ones.
> This is the purpose of later editions. All the native language speakers that I
> know of say that the later the edition, the less mistakes in it.
Certainly this
> is why the compiler, Watatani Kiyoshi, meant to do. And in a recent trip
to the
> used book stores in Kanda I saw both the first edition and a couple of the
> fourth editions for sale. They were all in the same condition, but the later
> editions were selling for 10,000 yen and the first was only 6,000 yen.
> Obviously the higher price of the later editions indicate a greater demand,
> which in turn indicates the later editions are thought of more highly than the
> cheaper first editions.
This is not exactly correct that the later additions were always more
accurate - although it is true in regards to koryu - old martial arts.
Watatani was writing and mailing inserts to the last addition almost to
the day of his death. It IS definitely true that the later editions had
far more material and expanded research.
However, regarding more modern martial arts, which had extensive
organizations, Watatani, as a younger man, was far more blunt and not
concerned about political sensitivities. His main interest was the old
martial traditions, and one gets the sense that, as an old man, quibbling
about the historical veracity of things he had little interest On
Shorinji Kempo, for example, where, in the earlier edition, he states that
Nakamura (So Doshin) created Shorinji Kempo from his own studies of Hakko
Ryu Jujutsu and personal ideas. In the later edition, he simply
reproduces the publicity literature of the organization, claiming direct
lineage from a line of the Shaolin temple. (I've seen some of the early
literature from the organization written in the 1960's, before the boom in
Chinese martial arts in Japan, and at one point, the writer claimed that
Hsing I and PaKua never existed in China - they were fabrications made up
by Sato Kimbei, - Sato was teaching these arts after a couple of years of
study with Wang Shu Chin, and he had previously written an article
debunking the claims of Shorinji Kempo).
Regarding Ninjutsu, if I recall correctly, in the earlier edition, he
referred to Hatsumi studying with Takamatsu, who had created his martial
art(s) from Ninja Gokko ("ninja play," a rather scornful word with the
nuance of "cowboys and Indians"). In the latter edition, he simply
reproduces the explanations given by Hatsumi's organization. Watatani was
a boyhood friend of Takamatsu.
BTW, for some clear-eyed comments on Watatani, on ninjutsu and on research
of Japanese martial arts, see Laszlo Able's interviews in Aki News
#95-96. Able was very close to Watatani in the last years of his life,
and is, perhaps, the best non-Japanese researcher of archaic martial
arts.
Best
--
Ellis Amdur
EdgeWork
eam...@halcyon.com
http://www.enso-company.com/edgework.html
Bakeneko
questions. Certainly Watatani was friends with Hatsumi and they exchanged
letters. And later Watatani changed the section on Togakure ryu, while still
stating that it was all built on Toda Shinryuken's oral traditions and that the
genealogy was probably not 100% accurate. But the reasons why are ones I still
can't say with complete confidence.
Did Watatani make friends with Hatsumi, despite thinking that he taught a
phony art and changing his story later to remain on his good side? Or was he
influenced by works by Nawa Yumio and Koyama Ryutaro, both of whose works came
after the first editions and which support the claims of the Togakure ryu?
Unfortunately, we don't have him around to ask anymore, just what other people
say about him. And even those works are not easy to get one's hands on- issues
#95 & 96 of the Aiki news are not for sale as back issues anymore. (Perhaps Mr.
Amdur is natsukashii for Mito Komon episodes and the like and would like to
discuss a trade with me?)
In any case the BRDJ is a good place to start, no matter what copy you use. If
a ninjutsu school being taught in America is not even listed in it, or treated
as if no one was still practicing it, then you can save yourself further
research right there. If the later editions were more friendly and they still
don't treat a school's claims as legitimate then that is even more reason not
to bother with further study and consider it a dead end. This will eliminate
the Jienkendo-ryu, Hsien ryu, Fuma-ryu, Koga-ryu and a heck of a lot of other
arts that claim to be teaching Japanese ninjutsu but are little more than con
men in black karate outfits. Again, if you think that a Japanese art like
ninjutsu can exist outside of Japan with the Japanese not being aware of it's
existence, then you should read the article by Wayne Muromoto in issue #8 of
Furyu magazine.
Don Roley
Ellis Amdur
A Non-Scholarly Commonsense View of Ninjutsu/Ninpo
The People who became Ninja
If you consider Japan from about the tenth century through the Warring
States period, you will see a gradual expansion of population and military
control of the country.
It would be a mistake to view the Japanese as a single ethnic group,
however. A consideration of the early Shinto texts refers to various
clans, that probably represent successive waves of immigration/invasion
into the country. The last, and most successful were the Yamato, probably
related to Turkic horse-nomads.
Earlier population groups were either absorbed through conquest or
inter-marriage (most notably the Kyushu matriarchal clans, still existant
in attenuated form in the Fujiwara - who functioned as regents to the
Imperial family), or pushed into the mountains and isolated population
centers.
Most well-known of the early groups were, of course, the Ainu in the
far North, and the Matagi, who became hunting people (the Ainu are still
hanging on, intermarried, with much of their culture destroyed,
functioning more as tourist attractions in Hokkaido/the Matagi still exist
in isolated villages, fairly assimilated into mainstream Japanese culture,
but still hunting, particularly black bear).
A generic term for other groups was Sanka. These were aboriginal
mountain people, who led a somewhat nomadic life, traded with the lowland
people in bamboo wares and mountain foodstuffs. Not much is known about
the Sanka, although they were probably fairly wide-spread in the mountain
regions.
It is believed that in times of strife, when social controls loosened,
Sanka managed to łinfiltrate˛ society, particularly as conscripts and
volunteers in the military. There is a belief, in fact, that Hideyoshi,
whose background is very obscure, and whose vivid personality is
remarkably different from the other generals of the period, was a Sanka
who rose through the ranks.
I think that it is most likely that the Ninja clans were Sanka groups
that were under a lot of economic/ecological pressure. As the population
expanded up the mountain valleys, the nomadic Sanka got locked in to
specific isolated geographical areas, and they no longer could follow game
and foodstuffs with impunity. Locked into one area, they had to develop
other ways of surviving. (The Apaches would be a group in a similar
situation in 19th century U.S.)
In addition, they were not simply locked in because other people were
around them. These people were aggressive land-takers, and as is usually
the case, the farmers regarded hunter-gatherers as less-than human.
Pushed into an embattled mode of hard-ship, the Sanka likely developed
fighting skills based on stealth and ambush, the same skills used in
hunting. (Note a similar example in South Africa when the Bantu and Boer
pushed the !Kung/Bushmen off the best land into the desert. The !Kung
became masters of survival, the best trackers, perhaps, in the world, and
fought a vicious guerilla war against the Bantu and Boer. They also hired
out to one group or another, as they continued to do in modern times -
functioning as scouts for the Boer army in South Africa and also in
Namibia).
Were the Ninja Just Sanka?
Because of the constant strife throughout Japan, there were always
losing factions and warriors on the run. Some of them surely escaped to
the mountains, not only singly but in groups. Just as black slaves were
absorbed into various Indian tribes in the U.S., particularly the
Seminoles, similarly, bushi groups or even clans could have been absorbed
into one or another sanka/ninja clan, adding their military skills to the
group.
What was the role of Shugendo?
Shugendo is a syncretic religion, mixing Buddhism, Taoism, and native
Shinto, along with wonder-working magic practices. It was the religion of
the poor - itinerant mountain ascetics moved from place to place,
offerring charms and spells and incantations. Their esoteric practices,
related to mikkyo (derived from Tibetan Buddhism), became the łspiritual
underpinning of ninjutsu.
What did Ninja do and what didnąt they do?
During the Warring states period, it is fairly sure that ninja acted
was guerillas and spies, again much as Indian scouts were used in the
U.S.A. in the 19th century or !Kung in South Africa in the 19th and 20th.
It is VERY unlikely that most of the dramatic stories of spy-craft are
true, however. Probably, kuniochi, women ninja, functioning as
prostitutes, were the main source of information. Why? Because you
couldnąt move around Japan with impunity. Imagine a country with all the
in-bred suspicion of outsiders that you find in Appalacian hill-country.
The miliary blocks most roads and inspects everyone who passes. If you
think youąll be inconvenienced if you fit a łprofile˛ at the airport,
imagine if there were no civil rights, and ANY outsider was a suspect.
Prostitutes were one of the only types of people who could be moved around
- it wouldnąt be surprising that a woman with an odd accent would be in a
brothel - somebody probably sold her there.
Japan was divided up in many groups, instantaneously recognizable by
dialect. The dialect in one area was radically different than another.
Imagine trying to infiltrate Georgetown in Washington, D.C., when all you
speak is łebonics˛ or łhillbilly dialect˛ or less radically, attempt to
affect an upperclass background with a Pittsburgh accent (łIąm gun dantawn
to worsh cloze˛ ). People couldnąt move around the country with
impunity. There were registries, there were military checkpoints, and
there was incredible suspicions.
To understand how intense these suspicions are, an acquaintance of mine
in Japan was a private investigator. He went to a mountain village, and
spoke with a woman - of samurai background, she let him know. Referring
to another family down the road, she said, łTheyąre really not of this
area. They donąt fit in. But what do you expect, they moved in only
three hundred years ago.˛
So it is fair to regard the Ninja as the equivalent of a military
irregular, used for observation, tracking, guerilla actions. Most of the
romantic tales, however, are simply that - stories. Feature travelling as
a priest, for example, and having your bag searched, and there is your
black ninja suit. . . or your sword, that only ninja carry. End of
mission.
What Happened to the Ninja?
In the Edo period, there was no use for mountain groups with varying
abilities to disrupt society by their skills or even existance.
Therefore, just like in America, most of the ninja clans were surely
destroyed in military slaughter. Others, more favored, perhaps, were
absorbed into the police forces or prison system.
So did any survive? Consider what has happened to indigenous people
through contact with civilization. Many !Kung can no longer make fire
with a bow - since matches were introduced, they stopped teaching their
kids. Hunter groups in South America have lost the ability to track. How
many people can still use sliderules now that we have calculators? Using
a sliderule would be the equivalent of a koryu.
It takes a very short time for a culture to be absorbed into a
dominent one. In America, Hmong, surely one of the most independent,
unwilling to assimilate people in the history of the world, are łlosing˛
their children to rap music and MacDonalds. I look at photos of my
Eastern European Jewish ancestors, just 3 generations ago, and they look
from another planet to me.
There are some photos of Sanka taken by an anthropologist pre-World War
II. They look like Dyak from Borneo. Bare-breasted women, the men and
women, slender and not very tall, even compared to ordinary Japanese.
Before World War II, there was tremendous poverty, particularly in rural
areas - the tradestuffs that the Sanka used to get supplies were no longer
bought, and the country increasingly restricted by the military. The Sanka
began to starve in the hills. To the best of anyoneąs knowlege, the Sanka
drifted down into the cities, and swelled the ranks of the burakamin - the
so-called untouchable underclass, who function, even today, as
day-laborers, garbagemen, etc.
How about Ninja Ryu - fighting systems?
How many of you, whose fathers fought in wartime, went through the
complete regimen of basic training, taught by him? How about through three
generations? My father was a spy in the Special Intelligence Services of
the FBI and he told me some great stories, but he didnąt teach me his
skills. It wouldnąt make sense as there was no context. Iąm sure he
would have taught me if we were in an embattled situation, but we were
not.
There were three hundred years of enforced peace in Japan followed by
one hundred years of modernization. No one needed ninja. Martial arts,
for most of us, is a leisure activity - not a means of
survival/livelihood. It is pretty hard to imagine that improverished,
mountain people, barely scraping by through ekeing out a few crops, or
gathering stuff to sell could or would maintain whole fighting traditions
that had no utility at all. How many American Indians still could kill a
buffalo from horse-back with a bow and arrow?
Also, all it takes is one generation, one son or daughter who doesnąt
want to learn, doesnąt practice. End of tradition.
The objection might be raised that, how about Koryu? There are old
martial traditions still in Japan. The answer is that these traditions
were public. Maniwa Nen Ryu, for example, is practiced in the village of
Maniwa by lots of people - itąs the town cultural activity, there is a
club in the high school. Katori Shinto Ryu never went underground nor did
any other of the sword schools that have survived.
Ninjutsu, on the other hand, supposedly continued in secret. This
makes sense if it were part of a revolutionary movement or deliberate
maintenance of a culture in opposition ot the mainstream (think of
capoeira in Brazil - however, people were certainly aware of capoeira,
even if they didnąt know exactly what the capoeirista were doing). It is
extremely dubious that there were groups handing down, in secret,
sophisticated traditions of ninjutsu, which were not used for hundreds of
years, and which could not be revealed in public. Itąs dubious, not only
logistically, but also logically - why maintain something like that?
Thus, there are more than a few families that have scrolls in their
possession of ninjutsu traditions, but they have no idea how to read them,
much less do the art.
How about the People who Practice Even Today?
It is fair to say that with the exception of Dr. Hatsumiąs group and
itąs off-shoots, none of the other groups have ANY credibility in Japan,
and in fact, no one has heard of them.
The last individual whom there is any sort of consensus (and many
people express considerable doubt even here) that he was a practitioner of
ninjutsu was Fujita Seiko, another great researcher like Watanani, but
also a formidible martial artist. He is said to have done some system of
ninjutsu, possibly from the Koga tradition. He did have students, but it
is still unclear to anyone I know if they learned ninjutsu, or only the
koryu that he also practiced. I read an interview with him where he said
that when the American Military had moved into his area after WWII, he was
waiting in his room with a crossbow. He planned to shoot the first
soldier who invaded the house and then had planned an escape over the
rooftops. To his surprise (and disappointment, perhaps?), the Americans
treated the population correctly, and he put his weapon away.
Regarding his successor students, rather than violate the privacy of
the individual whom I know, (he is a significant teacher of koryu in
Japan) I will only say that there are some people doing research with him
who hope to get more explicit information about what Fujita taught. He has
a group of students, but I do not know if he learned any ninjutsu from
Fujita, or if he did, if he is teaching it to another generation.
Dr. Hatsumi is regarded by the mainstream (researchers and
practitioners in koryu) as a reconstructor and fabricator, as well as a
researcher - depending on the person, this has various decrease of
positive or negative approbation. Some give him some respect for his
skill, others think he's doing "showtime" martial arts. Although he is
called a ninja in martial arts journals (the Japanese equivalents of Black
Belt), this is not true among scholars. He was a member of the Kobudo
Shinkokai (the major authoritative group for Koryu) for a time, but
according to Donn Draeger, was disinvited when he was not able to provide
the historical substantiation to support his claims of an unbroken
lineage.
To make my own prejudices clear, Iąve met Dr. Hatsumi and Mr.
Tanemura. I did not like Dr. Hatsumi, and I did like Mr. Tanemura. I
believe that the follower/successors to these two men are sincere and
dedicated, and have brought a real creative energy to their practice. I
think they are łfor real˛ in the sense that they practice intensely and
continue to research, and some, like Steve Jennum, even lay it on the line
in NHB competition. From what I have observed of practice and demos, what
I felt in my visit in 1977 to Dr. Hatsumi's dojo with his first foreign
student, Terry Dobson (deceased), and what I have read of Japanese
history, I do not believe that they are łfor real˛ in the sense of an
unbroken tradition for ninjutsu. I think that Dr. Hatsumi is an immensely
talented, creative man and using what he learned from his various
teachers, and reconstructing through research and practice, created a
modern-day "ninjutsu." I doubt that it looks much like what was practiced
in the mountains 400 years ago, but that, of course, is just my opinion.
Mike Sigman
Ellis Amdur wrote:
> It would be a mistake to view the Japanese as a single ethnic group,
> however. A consideration of the early Shinto texts refers to various
> clans, that probably represent successive waves of immigration/invasion
> into the country. The last, and most successful were the Yamato, probably
> related to Turkic horse-nomads.
> Earlier population groups were either absorbed through conquest or
> inter-marriage (most notably the Kyushu matriarchal clans, still existant
> in attenuated form in the Fujiwara - who functioned as regents to the
> Imperial family), or pushed into the mountains and isolated population
> centers.
> Most well-known of the early groups were, of course, the Ainu in the
> far North, and the Matagi, who became hunting people (the Ainu are still
> hanging on, intermarried, with much of their culture destroyed,
( snip nice post and I agree that even back in the 1960's in Japan the most
anyone could find of "true ninja skills" was reconstituted and refabricated
stuff as per Ellis' opinion [shared by many in Japan] in re Dr. Hatsumi)
Ellis, I wonder if you've seen the interesting article in the June 1998
Discover magazine, " Japanese Roots" by Jared Diamond? It's an interesting
article about the derivation of Japanese ethnic stock. You can read the
article by simply entering <Discover> in your navigator, which will take you
to Discover magazine's website. Go to the "archives" portion and enter some
of the above info on the article and the article itself will appear. Worth
reading.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Gian Piero Costabile
Tsai593
...er...ah....yeah...
Shinobi
>c'e' qualche personas interessata al ninpo,
>Genbukan e Bujinkan!??
>Write....Write...
>gian...@tin.it
No speak eh Spanish, sorry!
Bujinkan!
Hertac
>Subject: Re: Ninjutsu, "Ninjitsu!!!
>From: "Shinobi" <shi...@optonline.net>
>Date: 1/9/99 6:00 PM PST
>Message-id: <bRTl2.9$Q14....@news.optonline.net>
Jarle Thorsen
>I think it's Italian because of his .it ending address. However, I recall
>Gian Piero Costabile saying "che" somewhere and I know that "che cabron"
>is Portoguese for "you faggot". Maybe "che" exists in both languages. What
>does Gian Piero himself have to say?
Maybe (probably) he doesn't speak English ?
--
Jarle Thorsen
Instructor in Tenshin Dojo, Genbukan Ninpo
http://www.emsoy.com/ninpo/
Gian Piero Costabile
Gian Piero Costabile ha scritto nel messaggio