Fairbairn's chin jab - good technique?
Steve
decendants a good technique? I searched the archives for this group
and found a post from a while back where someone said simply "doesn't
work", without saying why. Just to be sure we're talking about the
same thing, here's how it was shown to me years ago:
It's typically an opening move, so the hands would be in a natural
position, not up in a guard position. It's delivered with the rear
hand, without chambering, in an uppercut motion. The power comes from
the use of a drop-step and hip rotation.
It seems to me that it would be unexpected, powerful and difficult to
block as most people are expecting punches, if anything. Fortunately,
I've never been in a street fight so I've never had to try this for
real. But that also means I don't know for sure if it's a workable
technique. Is it?
-- Steve
a@b.c
"Steve" <takez...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1ced027e.03083...@posting.google.com...
Any strike that can snap the head hard/fast enough to rattle the brain can
cause a knockout. However, if a person's neck muscles are sufficiently
strong enough to prevent the head from moving they probably won't be put
down. It's a good technique if the opportunity is there.
Nicholas
BillMahoney68
>
>Is the uppercut chin jab as taught by Fairbairn and his combative's
>decendants a good technique
No.It's lame.
Punch.
In fights allowijng both palm strikles and punching(vale tudo) the fighters
punch.
CaUSE IN SPARRING these guys find punching causes damage at a far higher ratye.
Fairbairn was clueless.
>searched the archives for this group
>and found a post from a while back where someone said simply "doesn't
>work",
That was me.
Ill explain what I mean...
"Palm strikes domt work cause they are bullshit"
I fought in MMA fights with palm strikes alone.I was never hurt at all.Fists
friggin hurt.
> Just to be sure we're talking about the
>same thing, here's how it was shown to me years ago:
>
>It's typically an opening move, so the hands would be in a natural
>position, not up in a guard position. It's delivered with the rear
>hand, without chambering, in an uppercut motion. The power comes from
>the use of a drop-step and hip rotation.
>
>It seems to me that it would be unexpected, powerful and difficult to
>block as most people are expecting punches, if anything. Fortunately,
>I've never been in a street fight so I've never had to try this for
>real. But that also means I don't know for sure if it's a workable
>technique. Is it?
Most people expact a punch cause punches hurt more.
If you cant hurt someone with a fist, then you sure cant with a palm.
Gi
Badger South
BillMahoney68 <billma...@aol.com> wrote:
>>m: takez...@yahoo.com (Steve)
>
>>Is the uppercut chin jab as taught by Fairbairn and his combative's
>>decendants a good technique
>
>No.It's lame.
>Punch.
>In fights allowijng both palm strikles and punching(vale tudo) the fighters
>punch.
>CaUSE IN SPARRING these guys find punching causes damage at a far higher ratye.
>Fairbairn was clueless.
>
>>searched the archives for this group
>>and found a post from a while back where someone said simply "doesn't
>>work",
>
>That was me.
>Ill explain what I mean...
>"Palm strikes domt work cause they are bullshit"
>I fought in MMA fights with palm strikes alone.I was never hurt at all.Fists
>friggin hurt.
What I see in the 'palm-only' rules MMA (any kick, any sub, no
fists, no gloves) is:
o A cuffing slap-palm, pref the palm heel strikes just in front
of the ear, but really anywhere on the side of the head. They
look like arm blows. Would an open-handed shovel-hook work?
You really can't load up, b/c it's such a broad stroke it must
be quick and sneak in. Usually thrown when you're not able to
goto clinch for some reason, to fill movement-time.
o A straight palm thrown like a shot put.
You see these thrown from the seated position if you each have
a leg and are fighting for the leg sub. Usually thrown to get
some time to wiggle out of the leg sub, or wiggle in further
so you can stand/post out of it.
A Fairbairn palm suffers from not having a good way to gain
momentum (wind-up), even if you've grabbed the opponent. If you
can get the guy to be bending over forwards forcefully into the
uppercut palm, it might be pretty effective.
[A knee to the head in that position would be better, IMO. Aim
to hit on the side of the head; temple/ear, pref or just clip
the point of the jaw, or hit the jaw hinge. This avoids the
teeth. I've seen some ppl take heavy shots to the forehead, and
although it stuns, doesn't seem to KO.]
-B
--
ba...@virginia.edu
nemo
>>m: takez...@yahoo.com (Steve)
>
>>
>>Is the uppercut chin jab as taught by Fairbairn and his combative's
>>decendants a good technique
>
>No.It's lame.
>Punch.
>In fights allowijng both palm strikles and punching(vale tudo) the fighters
>punch.
>CaUSE IN SPARRING these guys find punching causes damage at a far higher ratye.
>Fairbairn was clueless.
No, Fairbairn wasn't clueless!
Fairbairn's techniques are for the street, not for the artificial
environment of MMA. And Fairbairn's techniques have been
tried and tested - not for some silly belt, but for one's life!
Now, with Gi's arrogance out of the way, we can get down to
discussing the technique. And, I must grudgingly admit, there is
a grain of truth wrapped deep inside Gi's arrogance: The
palm-heel uppercut (or, less effectively, jab) is NOT a
"heavy-impact" technique - certainly not when done as a pure
impact technique. Done as pure impact, it is rather weak and
will not deter a powerful opponent (although, like any jab, it
could create an opening for more serious blows).
No, the technique is a mild-to-moderate impact technique,
**followed through** as a head-snapper-backer. In other words,
the technique should not be done as pure impact (unless as a
setup for a heavier blow) but rather as a *combination* of impact
plus momentum (i.e., follow-through) in order to drive the
opponent backwards - or, better, backwards and downwards.
As an aside, I like transitioning the palm under chin to a
fingers-in-eyes push as an augmentation of the momentum follow
through! (BTW it doesn't really matter if the fingers
*accurately* find their target or not as long as the push drives
the opponent off-balance - preferably not just backwards but
backwards and downwards). Note especially that it is *not* two
separate blows - the eye-gouge/push is a *continuation* of the
palm-under-chin jab/uppercut.
Regards,
GreenDistantStar
<nemo ou...@erewhon.com (nemo outis)> wrote in message
news:tQv4b.66849$la.15...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> Fairbairn's techniques are for the street, not for the artificial
> environment of MMA.
MMA was spawned from the notion that most TMA's were artificially effective,
and this would appear to have been proved beyond all reasonable doubt.
Fairbairn's techniques are for the most part crash-course TMA techniques.
Some work, most don't.
And Fairbairn's techniques have been
> tried and tested - not for some silly belt, but for one's life!
'Tried and tested" ? By whom? Where? When? Whose testimony?
The answer usually is "Fairbairn told someone he was attacked in a train
somewhere by some unnamed German soldier sometime in the 1940s"
So when Fairbairn says an uppercut is a highly effective fighting move (it
is, but it's a low % shot, not for the weak [no leverage] and note that even
for pro boxers it's the most infrequently thrown punch) we should believe
him and his incontrovertable evidence rather than the evidence of all the
NHB fights ever held?
GDS
GreenDistantStar
"Badger South" <ba...@node7.unix.Virginia.EDU> wrote in message
news:biu0ao$3mq$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
> What I see in the 'palm-only' rules MMA (any kick, any sub, no
> fists, no gloves) is:
>
> o A cuffing slap-palm, pref the palm heel strikes just in front
> of the ear, but really anywhere on the side of the head. They
> look like arm blows. Would an open-handed shovel-hook work?
It would but your opponent would either have to have slow reaction times or
be caught somewhat unawares.
>
> You really can't load up, b/c it's such a broad stroke it must
> be quick and sneak in. Usually thrown when you're not able to
> goto clinch for some reason, to fill movement-time.
Not a good use of time imho. You're more likely to be counter-punched.
>
> o A straight palm thrown like a shot put.
> You see these thrown from the seated position if you each have
> a leg and are fighting for the leg sub. Usually thrown to get
> some time to wiggle out of the leg sub, or wiggle in further
> so you can stand/post out of it.
I can see that working.....
>
> A Fairbairn palm suffers from not having a good way to gain
> momentum (wind-up), even if you've grabbed the opponent. If you
> can get the guy to be bending over forwards forcefully into the
> uppercut palm, it might be pretty effective.
Sure, it works, but it's a low % shot so why would you take it when there
are better alternatives?
>
> [A knee to the head in that position would be better, IMO.
Yes, or an elbow or a good head-butt.
Aim
> to hit on the side of the head; temple/ear, pref or just clip
> the point of the jaw, or hit the jaw hinge.
A hard slap to the side of the head (ear), cupping the hand can burst the
eardrum and cause intense pain etc.
Personally I'd rather double-leg the guy into the ground......
This avoids the
> teeth. I've seen some ppl take heavy shots to the forehead, and
> although it stuns, doesn't seem to KO.]
What many look for is to KO the assailant instantly. It's rarely available
and attempts to do so often compromise your position.
GDS
BillMahoney68
>Date: 8/31/03 7:49
>
>>>Is the uppercut chin jab as taught by Fairbairn and his combative's
>>>decendants a good technique
>>
>>No.It's lame.
>>Punch.
>>In fights allowijng both palm strikles and punching(vale tudo) the fighters
>>punch.
>>CaUSE IN SPARRING these guys find punching causes damage at a far higher
>ratye.
>>Fairbairn was clueless.
>
>
>No, Fairbairn wasn't clueless!
>
>Fairbairn's techniques are for the street, not for the artificial
>environment of MMA. And Fairbairn's techniques have been
>tried and tested - not for some silly belt, but for one's life!
In wars men fought with weapons.
Anyone that fights near every day ovcer many years I have develops the ability
to know when someone is speaking from exzperience, and someone is guessing.
Fairbairns consculsions are the same ones that all smart guys that tried to
develop fighting techniques caME UP WITH *if* they didnt test their ideas.
Fairbairns stuff is intuitive.
Oddly,....
If you really fight you will find actually fighting is mostly counter
intuitive.
It is intuitive that a striker beats a grappler.
Intuitive to hug a man lying on you.
Intuitive to stand up and kick a guy under you.
Intuitive to throw wide punches.Intuitive to use palms and standing elbows, and
groin shots...
When tested it is found VERY fat that these ideas are mostly wrong.
Fairbairn never found that out, so he never tested it,
He just asked other fighters and martial artsist, and looked around at
anecdotal evidence.
He was wrong.
>
>Now, with Gi's arrogance out of the way, we can get down to
>discussing the technique. And, I must grudgingly admit, there is
>a grain of truth wrapped deep inside Gi's arrogance: The
>palm-heel uppercut (or, less effectively, jab) is NOT a
>"heavy-impact" technique - certainly not when done as a pure
>impact technique. Done as pure impact, it is rather weak and
>will not deter a powerful opponent (although, like any jab, it
>could create an opening for more serious blows).
>
>No, the technique is a mild-to-moderate impact technique,
>**followed through** as a head-snapper-backer.
It wont snap back a head.
I am coming at you attacking.
You hit my chin with a palm, you wont knock my head up.I am coming at you too
hard.
A chin jab at a driving attacker(whoich attackers always seem to be) wont be
noticed.
It will only snap a head back if you get a guy that is not tihght and not
moving.
All attackers are tight.
>
>As an aside, I like transitioning the palm under chin to a
>fingers-in-eyes push as an augmentation of the momentum follow
>through! (BTW it doesn't really matter if the fingers
>*accurately* find their target or not as long as the push drives
>the opponent off-balance -
You havent tried this vs a committed attack.
I welcome you to do this in my vale tudo class.
It wonmt work.
Not once.
I guarentee it.
>. Note especially that it is *not* two
>separate blows - the eye-gouge/push is a *continuation* of the
>palm-under-chin jab/uppercut.
You are sreaking as a theorist, not a fighter.
Fighters know hitting exact targets are hard.They just throw and hope.
Gi
nemo
>
>You are sreaking as a theorist, not a fighter.
>Fighters know hitting exact targets are hard.They just throw and hope.
>Gi
You are a game-player - that's what MMA is. Yes, it's quite a
physical, rough game, but it's just a game nonetheless.
It is you who is the theorist, playing your MMA game. Fairnbairn
had a lifetime of experience where it matters - on the streets.
Regards,
Bill
>>You are sreaking as a theorist, not a fighter.
>>Fighters know hitting exact targets are hard.They just throw and hope.
>>Gi
>
Applegate or Fairbairn by bleed out in 12 seconds of 1st threatening
twitch of the lip.
Perk
BillMahoney68
>illmah...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote:
>
>>
>>You are sreaking as a theorist, not a fighter.
>>Fighters know hitting exact targets are hard.They just throw and hope.
>>Gi
>
>You are a game-player - that's what MMA is. Yes, it's quite a
>physical, rough game, but it's just a game nonetheless.
Street fights are childish posturing.
I laugh at them, but avoid them myself, because I only fight when Im paid to.
My fights are not a game in the least.They are the most series thing in the
world cause they are for money.
>
>It is you who is the theorist, playing your MMA game. Fairnbairn
>had a lifetime of experience where it matters - on the streets.
Fairbairn is a fraud.
A real fighter can see through him.
You are not a real fighter, therefore you are not equipt with the needed tools
to discern reality from fiction.
Herein lies our conflict.
Gi
BillMahoney68
Words.
You know where I am.
So do all Fairbairns heirs, the Bradley Steiners and his ilk.
Yet they are nowhere to be found.
http://www.sssfighting.com
Gi
Steve
> >m: takez...@yahoo.com (Steve)
>
> >
> >Is the uppercut chin jab as taught by Fairbairn and his combative's
> >decendants a good technique
>
> No.It's lame.
> Punch.
> In fights allowijng both palm strikles and punching(vale tudo) the fighters
> punch.
> CaUSE IN SPARRING these guys find punching causes damage at a far higher ratye.
Ok, that may be. But how many of them actully try other strikes? If
they learned standup by boxing, then they'll naturally use fists. You
can't develop a good chinjab while wearing a boxing glove.
> >searched the archives for this group
> >and found a post from a while back where someone said simply "doesn't
> >work",
>
> That was me.
> Ill explain what I mean...
> "Palm strikes domt work cause they are bullshit"
> I fought in MMA fights with palm strikes alone.I was never hurt at all.Fists
> friggin hurt.
So the problem isn't that the chinjab is difficult to land, it's just
difficult to land it with enough force to make it effective?
BTW, I didn't know they had bouts where only palm strikes were
allowed. What would be the reason for such a match?
<snip>
> Most people expact a punch cause punches hurt more.
> If you cant hurt someone with a fist, then you sure cant with a palm.
> Gi
I was beginning to suspect that. You can't really practice the
chinjab as I learned it against a heavy bag. But even an untrained
stiff like me can get some power behind a 1-2 combo on the bag. If
punches are more natural and effective, I wonder why Fairbairn and
Applegate made the chinjab such a staple in their training? Perhaps
it had to due with battlefield helmets. If you throw a right cross
and the guy's head moves, you're likely to smash your fist into a
helmet. But an open palm that travels up the torso to the underside
of the chin can't get into too much trouble along the way. Another
reason may be that it's easier to teach open-hand strikes to beginners
because they don't have to be as precise in aligning the wrist to
prevent hurting themselves.
I guess the only way I'll ever know for sure is to get my ass into a
gym and try it out. Why does knowledge have to be so painful?
-- Steve
Fraser Johnston
> BTW, I didn't know they had bouts where only palm strikes were
> allowed. What would be the reason for such a match?
Pancrase. It is Japanese. Enough said.
Fraser
Grappler240
>physical, rough game, but it's just a game nonetheless.
>
no...we are men.
you are a pussy ass little punk who talks too much and doesn't step up enough.
G240
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"You can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it,for all I care."
-Gichoke
BillMahoney68
I have sparred open hand 1000 times.
> If
>they learned standup by boxing, then they'll naturally use fists. You
>can't develop a good chinjab while wearing a boxing glove.
Dude,
You are telling a guy about palm strikes that competed in a sport in which the
principle strike is the palm strike.
I fought semi pro for years palm striking.
I won the new england championship belt in the palm strike MMA division.
It is not theory in my book.Ive hit innunerable guys innumerable times on the
chin with palm strikes.
Ive done it standing, on the ground, in sparring and in competetion.
And my matxches are all on tape.
Telling me about palm striking is like telling a thaiboxer about knees a BJJer
about chokes or Liberator about paranoid schizophrenia.
Fairbairn was WRONG.
I assure you that this conclusion is not based on theiry.But rather it is an
immutable fact to anyone that has 1/10th the time fighting weith palm strikes
as I have.
Palm strikes hurt.
Fists break things.
I am a man that KNOWS.
Learn from my experience ok?
Dont trust some bullshit some fol wrote in a book 50 yrars ago.Come to my
school and Ill show you 100 tapes of palm only matches, 100 tapes of fist
matxhes, then we can experiment with chin jabs, slaps, heels to the ribs, etc.
I EXPERIMENTED IN DETAIL AND AT GREAT LENGTH UPON TRAINING FOR MY FIRST PALM
ONLY MATCH.
Me and my partners hit eachj other 1000 times in all kinds of position, all
kinds of ways with palms almost daily for years.
Then I started getting more closed fist fights, but get this... in many drills
at my school we still use full force palms.
They hurt, but they dont send guys to the ER like punches with vale tudo
gloves.
I assure you that ANYONE that fights in pancrade(common word for palm only MMA
matxches) has experimented EXTENSIVLY with palm application.
I copuld lapse into a hyper technical dissertation on exactly how palms changes
the striking game, but you dont need to know that stuff unless you are going
into a palm only match.
JUST ACCEPT THAT FISTS WORK BETTER.
Following is the ONLY reasons why a palm shopuld be used.
1 You have broken your fist
2 You have him under control and he is hiding access to targets other than his
skull (ex... you have low mount, he has his face in your chest and he is
hugging you, you MIGHT wanna palm strike his skull instead of punch it,
depending on the state of your fists, though punches cause more damage.
3 He is in your guard or has side on you, and his head is so high and tight on
your body that you cannot angle your hand to get your fist into him(ex he is is
your guard, he has his face in your chest, he is high on you, you might wanna
slap him ears because punchuing would put your finger knuckles into his head
which may hurt you.
>
>So the problem isn't that the chinjab is difficult to land, it's just
>difficult to land it with enough force to make it effective?
Both.
It has less reach, you hand ios larger than the fist so it is more easily
blocked, you will hurt your fingers ALOT using your palm if your fingers get
caught on his arm.AND it just doesnt cause that much damage when it lands.
Remember.
It is about DAMAGE not pain.
Dont assume the carjacker is a wuss that will fold to pain, just DAMAGE him
instead.
>BTW, I didn't know they had bouts where only palm strikes were
>allowed. What would be the reason for such a match?
Because when we use fists guys bleed alot and faces break, which upsets the
sensitive folk.
Gi
BillMahoney68
>From: takez...@yahoo.com
> If
>punches are more natural and effective, I wonder why Fairbairn and
>Applegate made the chinjab such a staple in their training?
They were probably clueless.
I've seen so many supposedly brilliant grandmasters so completely idiotic
techniwues that Ive lost count.
It is a waste of time to wonder why.
If Fairbairn seems to have more cred than Gi does, do this.
Find a guy that will box you bare knuckle, do so.
Then do a round with slapping.
I assure you, you will agree with me 100% in just 2 minutes.
You know what makes a cult?
Well, alot of things, but most of all it takes an unimpeachable, untestable
source.
Why should we do this?
Because our leader SEZ so
Why is this true?
Because he SEZ so.
And why would he lie? OBVIOUSLY he must know the truth, right?
In my old JKD school a guy said
"We know groundfighting cant be that important, because bruce lee didnt train
it much...so why are we still borthering with so much groundfighting?"
And look out for this..
"I teach palm strikes in my anti rape class cause I was taught to do so by an
accredited instructer"
It is hard to believe me, cause to believe me is to believe that WORLD RENKOWN
self defense experts are completelky full of shit.
To accept Gichokes words is to accept that the people TEACHING the world about
fighting have not even an iota of understanding of the very thing that they are
said to masters of.
NOTHING is above reproach.
In 1993 the UFC happened and we found out that 99.9% of what we were taught by
experts was wrong.
The world is full of charlatans that dont know shit EVEN WITHIN their area of
expertise.
They never themselves tested their knowledge and they learned from other men
that never tested it.
There is an antirape course near me that gets huge press.Their been rapes up
here in the news of late and women are seeking out courses.
The ABC affiliate and the states number one paper have covered the course
extensively.
The course is taught by a TKD blackbeklt that one day decided she could make
more money in the self defense fad.
She went to a few seminars, learned bullshgit from men that have never been in
a real fight and now she teaches the states women how not to get raped.
In fact, to a man that knows, what she is teaching will make any woman MORE
LIKELY to get raped.
She teaches things that will get them killed.
My 11 year old neice could rape this woman.
I am serious.She couyld.
She knows how to drop a right hand on the nose, shoot a double leg, get mount
and pound toil her victim turns over.
And thats exactly what woukld happen if she attacvked that phoney.
Worst of all is that this woman doesnt klnow shes teaching shit.
I hope one day to meet her and get the chance to tell her.
Gi
Badger South
GreenDistantStar <GreenDis...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>"Badger South" <ba...@node7.unix.Virginia.EDU> wrote in message
>news:biu0ao$3mq$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
>
>> What I see in the 'palm-only' rules MMA (any kick, any sub, no
>> fists, no gloves) is:
>>
>> o A cuffing slap-palm, pref the palm heel strikes just in front
>> of the ear, but really anywhere on the side of the head. They
>> look like arm blows. Would an open-handed shovel-hook work?
>
>It would but your opponent would either have to have slow reaction times or
>be caught somewhat unawares.
>
>>
>> You really can't load up, b/c it's such a broad stroke it must
>> be quick and sneak in. Usually thrown when you're not able to
>> goto clinch for some reason, to fill movement-time.
>
>Not a good use of time imho. You're more likely to be counter-punched.
I'm limiting this to 'palm-only' rules MMA. This is what
Mahoney's league requires. Open hand only, no gloves. Elbows
and Headbutts not permitted. This is what I see watching those
kinds of matches on video.
-B
Dougie®
wrote:
>My 11 year old neice could rape this woman.
>I am serious.She couyld.
I don't know if I'd pay to see that...
Fraser Johnston
> I am serious.She couyld.
> She knows how to drop a right hand on the nose, shoot a double leg, get
mount
> and pound toil her victim turns over.
> And thats exactly what woukld happen if she attacvked that phoney.
> Worst of all is that this woman doesnt klnow shes teaching shit.
> I hope one day to meet her and get the chance to tell her.
> Gi
Props to you for turning your 11 year old niece into a stone cold killer.
Bet they guys at school don't give her shit. ; )
Fraser
GreenDistantStar
"BillMahoney68" <billma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030901004643...@mb-m16.aol.com...
clipped
Good post...very little to add except that the TKD BB teaching rape defense
is endemic here.
There was a TV story recently about a *suspected* rapist who just moved into
a town where the local are so paranoid about him they have taken to hiding
from him and taking rape defense classes.
They showed the classes. Wall-to-wall Ettish-fetishers. I thought the same
thing - what these girls are being taught would get them killed.....pathetic
half-kicks and punches/palm strikes...it was horrible...and some McDojo is
cleaning up to boot!
To Joe Public, a martial artist is anyone who turns up in a pair of jammies
and has a belt; preferably black.
If Carlos Newton walked in in a T-shirt and a pair of shorts and said "who
wants to learn how to fight?" he probably wouldn't get a gig.
GDS
GreenDistantStar
"Dougie®" <dougee...@canada.REMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:j8k5lvk3qr694u6oe...@4ax.com...
>
> I don't know if I'd pay to see that...
It would require um, er...a 'device' I suppose.
Could be worth watching....
Richard Lancashire
> > Fairbairn's techniques are for the street, not for the artificial
> > environment of MMA.
>
> MMA was spawned from the notion that most TMA's were artificially effective,
> and this would appear to have been proved beyond all reasonable doubt.
> Fairbairn's techniques are for the most part crash-course TMA techniques.
> Some work, most don't.
Crash-course, yes. TMA - well, among other arts, he was 2nd/3rd dan in
judo (not sure) when he developed his stuff, and also trained with
boxers (see Applegate's book). Not much more TMA than a fair few MMA
guys, really.
> And Fairbairn's techniques have been
> > tried and tested - not for some silly belt, but for one's life!
>
> 'Tried and tested" ? By whom? Where? When? Whose testimony?
>
> The answer usually is "Fairbairn told someone he was attacked in a train
> somewhere by some unnamed German soldier sometime in the 1940s"
Utter crap, Peter. This is the same sort of fingers-in-the-ears stuff
that you hear from the worst TMA guys. It was stuff he learned between
the wars, twenty years of police work in Shanghai - which, by all
accounts, was not a nice place. He was a well-known, widely
experienced martial artist who was apparently pretty handy with a
bayonet too.
> So when Fairbairn says an uppercut is a highly effective fighting move (it
> is, but it's a low % shot, not for the weak [no leverage] and note that even
> for pro boxers it's the most infrequently thrown punch)
Pro boxing is a different game than fighting. You don't drive an SUV
round town the way you drive an F1 round Imola, do you? :P
> we should believe
> him and his incontrovertable evidence rather than the evidence of all the
> NHB fights ever held?
Because he wasn't training people in a system geared towards two
people approaching each other across a ring, knowing more or less
precisely what the other guy is going to do. I do BJJ, I love it, and
I have the benefit of a MA background to appreciate its power and
elegance more than most beginners. But if you have a week or two to
train someone for fighting situations, I'd go with easily-remembered
sucker punches, very simple moves and plenty of self-confidence. By
comparing the system with an experiment that tests a different
variable, you're not being very rigorous.
The weakness of much combatives training is that it develops a
crash-course into a whole system, with the result that you cover too
much breadth and not enough depth - too many possible situations and
not enough skill development for a 'proper' martial art. Similarly,
for practical 'on-the-street' use, many schools cover too much depth
and not enough breadth - judo schools that don't consider punches, for
instance.
His system is a crash-course of what he considered the
easiest-to-remember techniques. To the original poster - it's a
first-shot attempt, if you do use it be sure to keep on attacking
before you even feel it land. If it knocks them out, great. If you can
be bothered to learn some good boxing punches, use them instead;
deeper study is rewarding.
Cheers
Rich
GreenDistantStar
"Richard Lancashire" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ad6f59.03090...@posting.google.com...
> Crash-course, yes. TMA - well, among other arts, he was 2nd/3rd dan in
> judo (not sure) when he developed his stuff, and also trained with
> boxers (see Applegate's book). Not much more TMA than a fair few MMA
> guys, really.
Yes Rich, I know this.
> Utter crap, Peter.
I will elaborate further then.
This is the same sort of fingers-in-the-ears stuff
> that you hear from the worst TMA guys. It was stuff he learned between
> the wars,
So why are his books illustrated with Nazis as assailants?
twenty years of police work in Shanghai - which, by all
> accounts, was not a nice place.
Maybe. Maybe he was Chief Wiggum there. There were definitely no Nazis ;o)
He was a well-known, widely
> experienced martial artist who was apparently pretty handy with a
> bayonet too.
I'd believe that. So is Steven Seagal, and what that guy can do to a
burrito, you don't wanna know.
> Pro boxing is a different game than fighting.
Most 'fighting' is either hopeless flailing or utter dominance. The
principles of boxing form some of the best methods ever devised to fight
with fists in a stand-up fight.
They are very useful in 'fighting' no matter how you wish to define it.
You don't drive an SUV
> round town the way you drive an F1 round Imola, do you? :P
I'm afraid I do :)
> Because he wasn't training people in a system geared towards two
> people approaching each other across a ring, knowing more or less
> precisely what the other guy is going to do. I do BJJ, I love it, and
> I have the benefit of a MA background to appreciate its power and
> elegance more than most beginners.
OK, but does what he teaches work in the environment for which it was
created?
I don't think I'd be too sure about answering 'yes' to that one at all.
But if you have a week or two to
> train someone for fighting situations, I'd go with easily-remembered
> sucker punches, very simple moves and plenty of self-confidence.
I agree, to an extent. It just might be we disagree only about what those
moves are.
By
> comparing the system with an experiment that tests a different
> variable, you're not being very rigorous.
Thank you, that's quite true. I'd still maintain conversely that the proof
of Fairbairn's methods is lacking.
MMA etc may not be the perfect or even a likely simulacra of what you may
encounter, but it's more realistic
to imagine a 150lb guy put a 240lb assailant to sleep mata leon than it is
to see him KO'ing him with an uppercut.
If someone says that ain't so, I must ask for proof - it's a claim if you
like and I'd like to see it verified.
>
> The weakness of much combatives training is that it develops a
> crash-course into a whole system, with the result that you cover too
> much breadth and not enough depth - too many possible situations and
> not enough skill development for a 'proper' martial art. Similarly,
> for practical 'on-the-street' use, many schools cover too much depth
> and not enough breadth - judo schools that don't consider punches, for
> instance.
Not a bad point.
> His system is a crash-course of what he considered the
> easiest-to-remember techniques.
OK. A crash course. So if it were you, would you teach this OR would you
teach a good takedown, mount, arm-bar and rear-naked?
To the original poster - it's a
> first-shot attempt, if you do use it be sure to keep on attacking
> before you even feel it land. If it knocks them out, great.
And if it doesn't you're f***ed?
If you can
> be bothered to learn some good boxing punches, use them instead;
> deeper study is rewarding.
Now ya talkin' :)
Cheers
Peter
Bill
wrote:
>>: Bill perk72120
>
>>
>>>>You are sreaking as a theorist, not a fighter.
>>>>Fighters know hitting exact targets are hard.They just throw and hope.
>>>>Gi
>>>
>>
>>
>>Applegate or Fairbairn by bleed out in 12 seconds of 1st threatening
>>twitch of the lip.
>
>Words.
>You know where I am.
>So do all Fairbairns heirs, the Bradley Steiners and his ilk.
>
Murder is probably a death penalty even where you live Gi.
As well as cruelty to animals and such.
I doubt they would want to have to kill you to help you understand
the difference between tapping and extreme blood letting.
Perk
Robert Low
>OK, but does what he teaches work in the environment for which it was
>created?
>I don't think I'd be too sure about answering 'yes' to that one at all.
The 'environment' was non-athletes with minimal training
having to deal with other non-athletes who had (with
luck) even less training. I don't think he was too
concerned with teaching a 130lber to deal with a cleanheaded
240lb roided biker from hell. (And he did adapt with
experience; his later material discards various things
you can find in 'Get Tough', on the grounds that they don't
work well enough.) Remember, selection only works to
the extent that there's pressure; a technique doesn't
have to be any better than it needs to be to beat the
guy you'll face if it's going to survive.
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
nemo
>>: nemo ou...@erewhon.com (nemo outis)
>
>>illmah...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>You are sreaking as a theorist, not a fighter.
>>>Fighters know hitting exact targets are hard.They just throw and hope.
>>>Gi
>>
>>You are a game-player - that's what MMA is. Yes, it's quite a
>>physical, rough game, but it's just a game nonetheless.
>
>Street fights are childish posturing.
>I laugh at them, but avoid them myself, because I only fight when Im paid to.
>
>My fights are not a game in the least.They are the most series thing in the
>world cause they are for money.
You have just admitted that you play a game. You play it for
money but that doesn't change its character - it's still a game.
You have asserted the ridiculous: a contest, a simulacrum, a
reflection, an echo, a shadow, is somehow more real than the
reality itself. No, it isn't
You probably think "practicing" by jerking off is better than
fucking!
>Herein lies our conflict.
There is no conflict - you are merely ignorant and I am trying to
instruct you.
Regards,
nemo
>>You are a game-player - that's what MMA is. Yes, it's quite a
>>physical, rough game, but it's just a game nonetheless.
>>
>
>no...we are men.
>
>you are a pussy ass little punk who talks too much and doesn't step up enough.
>
I don't play games, you mean.
And, no, I won't visit you or invite you to come visit me in
controlled conditions in some gym.
But anytime you want, accost me on the street. No need to phone
ahead, or even to call out. Just do it! You may not learn much
about the reality of the streets from the experience, but your
widow may be able to draw some inferences.
Regards,
Grappler240
>As well as cruelty to animals and such.
>I doubt they would want to have to kill you to help you understand
>the difference between tapping and extreme blood letting.
translation: they can't fight HtH any better than most "martial artists"...so
they'd ambush you like any untrained thug instead of facing you man to man.
Grappler240
>ahead, or even to call out. Just do it!
you're about as scary as a wet diaper, bitch.
nemo
>>Murder is probably a death penalty even where you live Gi.
>>As well as cruelty to animals and such.
>>I doubt they would want to have to kill you to help you understand
>>the difference between tapping and extreme blood letting.
>
>translation: they can't fight HtH any better than most "martial artists"...so
>they'd ambush you like any untrained thug instead of facing you man to man.
>
>G240
You really, really do have a "contest mentality," don't you?
Either that or you haven't quite worked through your teenager
stage of macho dominance fights.
No, G240, that isn't how it works in the real world outside the
artificial situation of the octagon. You see, on the street most
fights are between unequals, not equals. The combatants may
differ in size, skill, experience, numbers, age, sobriety,
armament, and a host of other dimensions. The venue is often
uncontrolled, messy, and dangerous, and, indeed, the entire
situation is vague, undefined, and open-ended with respect to any
variable or contingency.
The trick on the street is not to **beat** an unarmed equal under
safe and controlled conditions (that's a cakewalk by comparison),
but **to survive with minimal damage** an encounter with one (or
more!) who may be much superior (in both known and unknown
dimensions) and who may have added advantages such as choosing
the time and place and attacking by surprise. Compared to that,
the octagon is as safe and predictable as going to church.
"Survive" does not encompass just minimizing physical injury, but
financial, psychological, legal and other damage. The street is
a far, far, more complicated and more rigorous situation than the
octagon, with far, far higher penalties for failure.
Regards,
nemo
>>But anytime you want, accost me on the street. No need to phone
>>ahead, or even to call out. Just do it!
>
>you're about as scary as a wet diaper, bitch.
I'm glad you have decided not to tangle with me (whether from
fear or scorn is uninteresting to me - I have little time to
waste on changing the opinions of fools).
Eviscerating a 'roided-up macho fool, with all the legal hassle
that would entail, just to bring enlightenment to his dying
moments, would be rather an inconvenience for me.
Regards,
Robert Low
>translation: they can't fight HtH any better than most "martial artists"...so
>they'd ambush you like any untrained thug instead of facing you man to man.
You say that as if it's not the sensible way to
approach the problem...
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
Robert Low
nemo outis <nemo ou...@erewhon.com> wrote:
>Eviscerating a 'roided-up macho fool, with all the legal hassle
Don't eviscerate the roided up macho fool---that just
gets him mad!
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
nemo
>
>nemo outis <nemo ou...@erewhon.com> wrote:
>>Eviscerating a 'roided-up macho fool, with all the legal hassle
>
>Don't eviscerate the roided up macho fool---that just
>gets him mad!
I do have such fun with this persona I've created. You'd think
the MMA boys would get it: it's the same posturing as the pro
wrestlers.
Now maybe if I added a really "mean" tattoo, and perhaps a
headband worn as a biker rag...
Regards,
Chas
>..... It was stuff he learned between
> > the wars,
> So why are his books illustrated with Nazis as assailants?
Get Tough was written for the war effort. Earlier books, also for the
English market, used other models.
> twenty years of police work in Shanghai - which, by all
> > accounts, was not a nice place.
> Maybe. Maybe he was Chief Wiggum there. There were definitely no Nazis ;o)
He formed the 'Flying Squad', which was the SWAT team of the time. Shanghai
was one of the roughest cities on the planet- that's why they called getting
conscripted being 'Shanghaied'; smacked in the head and wake up as a sailor.
They didn't do a lot of 'submissions', because they didn't need them.
Mostly, they just shot you.
Fairbairn was one of the first to go to a .45 as opposed to the police .38,
to carry a small fighting knife (as a police officer), to make
'hand-to-hand' a specific training objective for cops; lots of good
innovations we still use today.
> I'd believe that. So is Steven Seagal, and what that guy can do to a
> burrito, you don't wanna know.
And, if you try to take it away from him, it's even better.
Chas
Chas
> they'd ambush you like any untrained thug instead of facing you man to
man.
As if cops operated by any 'honor' system like 'man-to-man'.
It is to laugh; la.
Chas
Bill
wrote:
>>Murder is probably a death penalty even where you live Gi.
>>As well as cruelty to animals and such.
>>I doubt they would want to have to kill you to help you understand
>>the difference between tapping and extreme blood letting.
>
>translation: they can't fight HtH any better than most "martial artists"...so
>they'd ambush you like any untrained thug instead of facing you man to man.
>
>G240
That's Gi worship speak.
Or cop speak saying no one should be armed in defense
so ring fighting makes reality.
You would think you would have learned something with all the cop
experience you claim.
My attitude is and I train for
"You fuck with me or my family I "will" face you straight in the eye
as I cut your heart out. I'd shoot first if time and range permits.
I can hand to Hand with most."
But that's the difference between Gi and me. Why would I start out
slow only to have to up the anti. I would slow down as safety permits
Gi wants to wrassle. Two different focuses. One is for defense the
other for sport. The sport can cross over to a point and produces some
tough bastards. The tougher the bastard the more I cut.
Weapons training isn't for play, you have to hold back.
Ignore the weapons and your fucked when the time comes.
But you already knew this.
Fuck your weak ambush statement. It's a fluke and you know it Bro
Perk
TimR
> >>You are sreaking as a theorist, not a fighter.
> >>Fighters know hitting exact targets are hard.They just throw and hope.
> >>Gi
> >
>
>
> twitch of the lip.
>
Wait a sec here. Am I remembering wrong, or is Fairbairn's press
release a little too good?
I thought he had worked in the police in Hongkong and had participated
in more than 500 violent arrests - at least that's what the bio used
to say. I've always figured the average cop gets more street
experience on any given Saturday night than the average TMA black belt
in a career.
I always figured he had some practical experience, but also some
appreciation of how hard it was to impart some quick combat skill to
newbies, which is what he dealt with both on the police training area
and the military. His personal TMA's were judo and pakua, which is
probably where the palm heel stuff came from.
If you watch any TV show or movie about cops, they punch people all
the time. I believe in real life you couldn't possibly do that.
You'd be breaking your hands. That's why they have batons and saps.
He probably figured you couldn't teach a recruit to punch hard without
breaking his hands and being on workman's comp, but you probably could
teach him to palm heel somebody a little less hard but with less risk.
Of course, I could have the wrong guy entirely. If so, never mind.
Grappler240
truth hurts. It's the only way you can win...cause you DONT train to fight.
stick with your TMAs.....it's all you can handle.
Grappler240
the fairbairn/sykes dagger is my favorite knife design. I have one that is the
sharpest knife I own.
Robert Low
>>Don't eviscerate the roided up macho fool---that just
>>gets him mad!
>
>I do have such fun with this persona I've created. You'd think
>the MMA boys would get it: it's the same posturing as the pro
>wrestlers.
>Now maybe if I added a really "mean" tattoo, and perhaps a
>headband worn as a biker rag...
I suggest a spiderweb on the neck; for real verisimilitude,
you also require a heart with 'Mother' written across it,
though. (O, I also suggest using the lick'n'stick variety,
rather then the inky needle in the flesh one. But maybe
that's just me.)
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
Dougie®
wrote:
>so they'd ambush you like any untrained thug instead of facing you man to man.
Dude, there is a difference between survival and contest. When
it comes to survival I'll kill you any way I can and not feel bad
about it in the morning. I have a lot to live for.
Dougie®
wrote:
>You have just admitted that you play a game. You play it for
>money but that doesn't change its character - it's still a game.
Odd how games like BJJ, boxing, Judo, Wrestling etc are often
more effective than TMA.
Bill
wrote:
>>Fuck your weak ambush statement.
>
>truth hurts. It's the only way you can win...cause you DONT train to fight.
>
>stick with your TMAs.....it's all you can handle.
>
>G240
>
I'll stick with integrity and willingness to tell the truth.
The truth is you don't have a clue about me!
The truth is you ride both sides of the fence even if you don't want
to admit it. Your a cop who talks of weapons skills and the need.
Then you claim the opposite when the weather changes.
So far all of the converts to BJJ and weapons folks can tell the
difference between survival fight tactics and h2h without it.
Seems your a minority of one. This time...the weather will change and
when your flashing your self made famous cop skilz you will wave the
other flag!
Perk
nemo
>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:45:11 GMT, nemo ou...@erewhon.com (nemo outis)
>wrote:
>
>>You have just admitted that you play a game. You play it for
>>money but that doesn't change its character - it's still a game.
>
> Odd how games like BJJ, boxing, Judo, Wrestling etc are often
>more effective than TMA.
Any of them can be very effective - IF the situation one
encounters on the street happens to correspond more or less to
the conditions for which they are suitable.
The street situations for which ANY unarmed martial art or
sporting skill (MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc.) are suitable tend
to be the less serious ones: one-on-one, unarmed, no
interference, opponent is equal or less than you in skill, size,
experience and fitness, opponent will settle for dominance rather
than killing you, etc. For those situations, yeah, MMA will do.
But they are precisely the situations which wouldn't much matter
if you lost anyhow - a few scrapes and bruises to body and ego.
On the street one doesn't always know going in what the situation
really is, how good the opponent is, or how many, etc., etc.
There is a high degree of uncertainty about many street
situations. Close with that scrawny little old Filipino guy in
order to apply your marvelous MMA skills and you may find that
you have been carved like a Christmas turkey before you
reconsider your rashness (that's if you make it out of the ER!).
Those who treat the street like a sporting contest may have some
initial or sporadic success, but, if they persist or if they are
unlucky, they will discover what "Vale Tudo" really means, and
that it can mean **a hell of lot more** than blows, headbutts,
chokes, throws, and locks!
Regards,
Dougie®
wrote:
>The street situations for which ANY unarmed martial art or
>sporting skill (MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc.) are suitable tend
>to be the less serious ones: one-on-one, unarmed, no
>interference, opponent is equal or less than you in skill, size,
>experience and fitness, opponent will settle for dominance rather
>than killing you, etc. For those situations, yeah, MMA will do.
>But they are precisely the situations which wouldn't much matter
>if you lost anyhow - a few scrapes and bruises to body and ego.
Overall in physical confrontation these sport arts tend to be
on the upper eschelon of effectiveness.
>On the street one doesn't always know going in what the situation
>really is, how good the opponent is, or how many, etc., etc.
>There is a high degree of uncertainty about many street
>situations. Close with that scrawny little old Filipino guy in
>order to apply your marvelous MMA skills and you may find that
>you have been carved like a Christmas turkey before you
>reconsider your rashness (that's if you make it out of the ER!).
We're not talking weapons here. But, hey, don't assume that
MMA guys don't train for them too. Not saying they use MMA to deal
with it, arts that are weapon specific perhaps.
>Those who treat the street like a sporting contest may have some
>initial or sporadic success, but, if they persist or if they are
>unlucky, they will discover what "Vale Tudo" really means, and
>that it can mean **a hell of lot more** than blows, headbutts,
>chokes, throws, and locks!
The problem with your reasoning is that you work in an
environment that never trains. When I say that I mean you work the
knife the club the stick you may work in theory but how often do you
get to use it? Of course you can't go around stabbing people and that
is understood but these sport art guys are out there working what they
know and practicing it to a level that many weapons-only people will
never know.
I know a 250lb guy who learned that if he threw his forearms
up to ward off the knife slash(palms in so the back the arm is out) he
could crash in and did serious damage. He learned it in a bar fight at
The Ridout Tavern here in town. The guy he fought had no clue what to
do when his opponent got past that knife. That was his error. He
though that they never would get past the knife.
Steve
billma...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote in message news:<20030901003154...@mb-m16.aol.com>...
> >: takez...@yahoo.com
> >Ok, that may be. But how many of them actully try other strikes?
>
> I have sparred open hand 1000 times.
>
> > If
> >they learned standup by boxing, then they'll naturally use fists. You
> >can't develop a good chinjab while wearing a boxing glove.
>
> Dude,
> You are telling a guy about palm strikes that competed in a sport in which the
> principle strike is the palm strike.
> I fought semi pro for years palm striking.
> I won the new england championship belt in the palm strike MMA division.
> It is not theory in my book.Ive hit innunerable guys innumerable times on the
> chin with palm strikes.
> Ive done it standing, on the ground, in sparring and in competetion.
> And my matxches are all on tape.
My mistake. I didn't know about those types of matches or your
experience with them.
> I EXPERIMENTED IN DETAIL AND AT GREAT LENGTH UPON TRAINING FOR MY FIRST PALM
> ONLY MATCH.
> Me and my partners hit eachj other 1000 times in all kinds of position, all
> kinds of ways with palms almost daily for years.
>
> Then I started getting more closed fist fights, but get this... in many drills
> at my school we still use full force palms.
> They hurt, but they dont send guys to the ER like punches with vale tudo
> gloves.
That speaks volumes.
> >So the problem isn't that the chinjab is difficult to land, it's just
> >difficult to land it with enough force to make it effective?
>
> Both.
> It has less reach, you hand ios larger than the fist so it is more easily
> blocked, you will hurt your fingers ALOT using your palm if your fingers get
> caught on his arm.AND it just doesnt cause that much damage when it lands.
> Remember.
> It is about DAMAGE not pain.
> Dont assume the carjacker is a wuss that will fold to pain, just DAMAGE him
> instead.
Good points. I'm going to have to rethink how I'm spending my
training time. After training all these years from theory, I have
more questions than answers. I've reached the point where I'd rather
have some basic punches that I know I can land effectively, than all
those 'super deadly street techniques' that I have to trust will work
when I need them. Matt Hume has a gym about 1/2 hour from where I
live. I think I'll go check him out.
Thanks for all the input Gi.
-- Steve
Todd Christensen
Oh, Gerry. GAWD. Talk about posturing.
When was the last time YOU killed sombody? you argued your self into a
corner. er... circle. What ever. So just shut up. You don't have to
agree with the MMA premis. But shut up already. Widow. Jeez.
Todd Christensen
> "BillMahoney68" <billma...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030901004643...@mb-m16.aol.com...
>
> clipped
>
> Good post...very little to add except that the TKD BB teaching rape defense
> is endemic here.
>
> There was a TV story recently about a *suspected* rapist who just moved into
> a town where the local are so paranoid about him they have taken to hiding
> from him and taking rape defense classes.
>
> They showed the classes. Wall-to-wall Ettish-fetishers. I thought the same
> thing - what these girls are being taught would get them killed.....pathetic
> half-kicks and punches/palm strikes...it was horrible...and some McDojo is
> cleaning up to boot!
>
> To Joe Public, a martial artist is anyone who turns up in a pair of jammies
> and has a belt; preferably black.
>
> If Carlos Newton walked in in a T-shirt and a pair of shorts and said "who
> wants to learn how to fight?" he probably wouldn't get a gig.
>
> GDS
2 weeks after 9/11 the local news had a story about a flight attendant
- a *black belt* - that was teaching her fellow attendants how to
defeat hijackers.
With TKD.
"I am prepared." She said, " They would know what hit them. I know how
to disarm a man with a knife."
The footage was her *disarming* a padded dude in a dobak.
He had a rubber knife.
The disarm?
A jump spin back kick.
Oh. Brother.
Imagine that. On a plane. Against a guy willing to comit suicide. The
knife duct taped to his hand.
People are so fucking stupid.
Chas
> Oh, Gerry. GAWD. Talk about posturing.
Hard to be the 'Silent Moody Gunfighter with a Heart of Gold (tm)' on a
newsgroup- much less when dealing with the MMA sport crowd.
> When was the last time YOU killed sombody?
Well gee, Todd; what a tacky question.
As an example; last night, one of my neighbors was confronted by a gang. She
called me, I went down and confronted them with a claw hammer.
No big thing; no 'posturing', nobody dead, no referee, no rules, no bell-
Possessed of a whole different set of 'intentions' though.
--
Chas
'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
http://www.chasclements.com
http://www.kuntaosilat.net
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/silatknifefighting.htm
Badger South
Robert Low <mtx...@linux.services.coventry.ac.uk> wrote:
>GreenDistantStar <GreenDis...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>OK, but does what he teaches work in the environment for which it was
>>created?
>>I don't think I'd be too sure about answering 'yes' to that one at all.
>
>The 'environment' was non-athletes with minimal training
>having to deal with other non-athletes who had (with
>luck) even less training. I don't think he was too
>concerned with teaching a 130lber to deal with a cleanheaded
>240lb roided biker from hell. (And he did adapt with
>experience; his later material discards various things
>you can find in 'Get Tough', on the grounds that they don't
>work well enough.) Remember, selection only works to
>the extent that there's pressure; a technique doesn't
>have to be any better than it needs to be to beat the
>guy you'll face if it's going to survive.
>--
>Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
In defense of WF, he was tasked with teaching a large number of
guys something the thought they could do with no training, in a
desperate sitch. Maybe his chief emphasis was abruptness, high
rage and heavy follow through, and he taught that through this
palm/knee sequence? ;-)
-B
Badger South
Bill <perk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 01 Sep 2003 16:41:50 GMT, grapp...@aol.comnojunk (Grappler240)
>wrote:
>
>>>Fuck your weak ambush statement.
>>
>>truth hurts. It's the only way you can win...cause you DONT train to fight.
>>
>>stick with your TMAs.....it's all you can handle.
>>
>>G240
>>
>I'll stick with integrity and willingness to tell the truth.
>The truth is you don't have a clue about me!
>
>Perk
OK, dude, time to put up a pic on Gunn's page. Give us a clue.
;-)
-B
Chas
> In defense of WF, he was tasked with teaching a large number of
> guys something the thought they could do with no training, in a
> desperate sitch. Maybe his chief emphasis was abruptness, high
> rage and heavy follow through, and he taught that through this
> palm/knee sequence? ;-)
In case you hadn't noticed, the underside of the chin is one of the few
'unarmored' places on a combat soldier- the other being his testicles.
You certainly don't want to hit the head, and probably not the torso (with
your hand).
WF was a jujutsu player, boxer, Shanghgai 'Ox' style- about as much of a
well rounded MMA fighter as the day produced.
Badger South
Chas <ch...@chasclements.com> wrote:
>"Badger South" <ba...@node7.unix.Virginia.EDU> wrote
>> In defense of WF, he was tasked with teaching a large number of
>> guys something the thought they could do with no training, in a
>> desperate sitch. Maybe his chief emphasis was abruptness, high
>> rage and heavy follow through, and he taught that through this
>> palm/knee sequence? ;-)
>
>In case you hadn't noticed, the underside of the chin is one of the few
>'unarmored' places on a combat soldier- the other being his testicles.
>You certainly don't want to hit the head, and probably not the torso (with
>your hand).
Very good point.
>WF was a jujutsu player, boxer, Shanghgai 'Ox' style- about as much of a
>well rounded MMA fighter as the day produced.
Well, notice I was trying to defend him. Tough assigment.
-B
--
ba...@virginia.edu
Chas
> >WF was a jujutsu player, boxer, Shanghgai 'Ox' style- about as much of a
> >well rounded MMA fighter as the day produced.
> Well, notice I was trying to defend him. Tough assigment.
Not a 'tough assignment'.
Fairbairn stood up for anybody on the planet; a grappler, a boxer, a systems
fighter, a gunfighter, a knife-fighter, a fighter with the truncheon/club.
It's pretty fucking arrogant for some people to believe that they, or
anybody they know, could beat one of these guys from stand-up, much less if
you found out he was pissed at you and coming over.
His book 'Scientific Fighting (or some such) was printed in 1932 or so- and
it was the culmination of his works prior- manuals and such. He wrote 'Get
Tough' almost ten years later- and particularly for the combat soldier.
Same with Donn Draeger; Marine, BB's in a half dozen arts; wrestler, boxer.
I don't know what anybody would have to show him that he would find
surprising in today's martial art.
These guys were bad to the fucking bone.
Bill
What is Gunn,s Page?
I'll look a pic up and post it.
Perk
nemo
>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:21:30 GMT, nemo ou...@erewhon.com (nemo outis)
>wrote:
>
>>The street situations for which ANY unarmed martial art or
>>sporting skill (MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc.) are suitable tend
>>to be the less serious ones: one-on-one, unarmed, no
>>interference, opponent is equal or less than you in skill, size,
>>experience and fitness, opponent will settle for dominance rather
>>than killing you, etc. For those situations, yeah, MMA will do.
>>But they are precisely the situations which wouldn't much matter
>>if you lost anyhow - a few scrapes and bruises to body and ego.
>
> Overall in physical confrontation these sport arts tend to be
>on the upper eschelon of effectiveness.
Yes, MMA does give a high degree of effectiveness for a very
narrow class of encounters for a certain limited class of
practitioners. But it breeds an unwarranted presumption in its
practioners that what they know is the alpha and omega of martial
arts which will work in any situation (somewhat redolent of the
attitude of WCers in years gone by). Such arrogance causes them
to rush in where angels, if not actually fearful of treading,
would be a good deal more circumspect and judicious.
It is almost exclusively practiced by a limited class of people
(fit young men) and for only a small portion of their lives. And
it takes an inordinate amount of effort and dedication. (One
tenth, - no, one hundredth - the effort applied to pistol or
knife will equip one far better and for a far wider range of
situations.)
> We're not talking weapons here. But, hey, don't assume that
>MMA guys don't train for them too. Not saying they use MMA to deal
>with it, arts that are weapon specific perhaps.
Who the fuck says we're not talking weapons here? As far as I'm
concerned, unarmed MA is for giving me enough time to get my
blade into action (or, I suppose, maybe for dealing firmly but
unroughly with overly-boisterous drunk old Uncle Vinnie at my
cousin's wedding).
>>Those who treat the street like a sporting contest may have some
>>initial or sporadic success, but, if they persist or if they are
>>unlucky, they will discover what "Vale Tudo" really means, and
>>that it can mean **a hell of lot more** than blows, headbutts,
>>chokes, throws, and locks!
>
> The problem with your reasoning is that you work in an
>environment that never trains. When I say that I mean you work the
>knife the club the stick you may work in theory but how often do you
>get to use it? Of course you can't go around stabbing people and that
>is understood but these sport art guys are out there working what they
>know and practicing it to a level that many weapons-only people will
>never know.
You are both presumptuous and unwise to pontificate in a vacuum
on what my weapon training methods are or are not and what I may
or may not have done for real. There are more things in heaven
and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
> I know a 250lb guy who learned that if he threw his forearms
>up to ward off the knife slash(palms in so the back the arm is out) he
>could crash in and did serious damage. He learned it in a bar fight at
>The Ridout Tavern here in town. The guy he fought had no clue what to
>do when his opponent got past that knife. That was his error. He
>though that they never would get past the knife.
Well, to put your mind at rest, if someone tried something like
that with me, he would have chosen a very ugly and unpleasant,
albeit extremely effective, form of assisted suicide.
Regards,
nemo
>nemo ou...@erewhon.com (nemo outis) wrote in message
> news:<iiH4b.70342$la.16...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca>...
>> In article <20030831233345...@mb-m02.aol.com>,
> grapp...@aol.comnojunk (Grappler240) wrote:
>> >>You are a game-player - that's what MMA is. Yes, it's quite a
>> >>physical, rough game, but it's just a game nonetheless.
>> >>
>> >
>> >no...we are men.
>> >
>> >you are a pussy ass little punk who talks too much and doesn't step up
> enough.
>> >
>>
>> I don't play games, you mean.
>>
>> And, no, I won't visit you or invite you to come visit me in
>> controlled conditions in some gym.
>>
>> But anytime you want, accost me on the street. No need to phone
>> ahead, or even to call out. Just do it! You may not learn much
>> about the reality of the streets from the experience, but your
>> widow may be able to draw some inferences.
>>
>> Regards,
>
>Oh, Gerry. GAWD. Talk about posturing.
>
>When was the last time YOU killed sombody?
Gentlemen don't ask other gentlemen that sort of question.
Regards,
Dougie®
wrote:
>Yes, MMA does give a high degree of effectiveness for a very
>narrow class of encounters
I think overall those encounters are more than likely to
happen.
>Who the fuck says we're not talking weapons here?
I was in the previous statement.
> As far as I'm
>concerned, unarmed MA is for giving me enough time to get my
>blade into action
Ditto. I carry all the time. But there are other aspects that
MA might be needed for.
>You are both presumptuous and unwise to pontificate in a vacuum
>on what my weapon training methods are or are not and what I may
>or may not have done for real. There are more things in heaven
>and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Wasn't talking about you in particular. Don't know why you're
taking that so personally.
>Well, to put your mind at rest, if someone tried something like
>that with me, he would have chosen a very ugly and unpleasant,
>albeit extremely effective, form of assisted suicide.
Sure. A bar fight ends you up in jail. If that's what floats
your boat then so be it.
Robert Low
Todd Christensen <to...@quesinberry.com> wrote:
>"I am prepared." She said, " They would know what hit them. I know how
>to disarm a man with a knife."
>
>The footage was her *disarming* a padded dude in a dobak.
>He had a rubber knife.
>
>The disarm?
>A jump spin back kick.
It would work. It's hard to keep hold of a knife
when your sides hurt that much. (OK, it's hard
to do anything with the knife duct taped to our
hand when they hurt that much.)
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
Badger South
http://www.pbase.com/gunncb/rma
Email: gun...@inet.net.nz
-B
--
ba...@virginia.edu
nemo
>>You are both presumptuous and unwise to pontificate in a vacuum
>>on what my weapon training methods are or are not and what I may
>>or may not have done for real. There are more things in heaven
>>and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
>
> Wasn't talking about you in particular. Don't know why you're
>taking that so personally.
Nothing particularly personal about it - I'm just an irritable
old man who dislikes sloppy thinking and sloppy writing. You
said, without qualifying whether it was a generic or specific
"you," that: "The problem with your reasoning is that you work in
an environment that never trains." And I think it is a valuable
corrective to point out that you know nothing of my methods or
my experience. You are either speculating wildly about me in
particular or making overly broad generalizations :-)
>>Well, to put your mind at rest, if someone tried something like
>>that with me, he would have chosen a very ugly and unpleasant,
>>albeit extremely effective, form of assisted suicide.
>
> Sure. A bar fight ends you up in jail. If that's what floats
>your boat then so be it.
In the immortal words of Pedro in For Whom the Bell Tolls, "I
don't provoke." I am no longer a young man and have left the
impetuosity of youth behind. After a long and eventful life I
have an acute sense of my vulnerability and fragility - despite
all my training - and I do not take precipitate risks over
trifles. I am not easily drawn into fights, especially the silly
ego/macho fights so common with young men. But I have become much
nastier over the years and now, if I do fight, I do not do so by
half measures. I will not lose!
Regards,
PS One of the greatest problems of the street is deciding
when an encounter is over. I have "resumed" fights after a
hiatus of a year or more - fights the opponent thought were long
over and had probably forgotten. My opponent - no, make that my
victim - hadn't accurately assessed my determination to
ultimately prevail.
Grappler240
>The truth is you don't have a clue about me!
awwww...did i hurt you feewings, wittle guy.....
like I said...truth hurts. Maybe one day you'll learn how to fight for real.
until then....stay in your little hole there in Gravel Ridge...where you
belong.
_ berge @hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
>I thought he had worked in the police in Hongkong
Shanghai.
BillMahoney68
>
>>>illmah...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>You are sreaking as a theorist, not a fighter.
>>>>Fighters know hitting exact targets are hard.They just throw and hope.
>>>>Gi
>>>
>>>You are a game-player - that's what MMA is. Yes, it's quite a
>>>physical, rough game, but it's just a game nonetheless.
>>
>>Street fights are childish posturing.
>>I laugh at them, but avoid them myself, because I only fight when Im paid
>to.
>>
>>My fights are not a game in the least.They are the most series thing in the
>>world cause they are for money.
>
>
>You have just admitted that you play a game.
Yeah, and it's called pin the tail on the ho.
I play with your mother.
No pants required.
>You play it for
>money but that doesn't change its character - it's still a game.
A punch is a punch.
But when money rides on it I go against the grain.
>
>You have asserted the ridiculous: a contest, a simulacrum, a
>reflection, an echo, a shadow, is somehow more real than the
>reality itself. No, it isn't
Reality is two highschool rolling around in the dirt slipping out of headlocks
til they get all muddy sand quit.
I can hunt pigeons everyday, anywhere.
It dont mean shit.
When the top killers decide to fight they do it in a ring and make the rabble
pay to watch.
Im way past wrecking guys like you.
>
>You probably think "practicing" by jerking off is better than
>fucking!
I dont practice jerking off.I perfected it when I was 12.
Now I'm a pro.
>
>>Herein lies our conflict.
>
>
>There is no conflict - you are merely ignorant and I am trying to
>instruct you.
There is indeed a conflict.
It exists somewhere between the inards of your thick skull and the outer world
as others know it.
Gi
Grappler240
>>money but that doesn't change its character - it's still a game.
>
> Odd how games like BJJ, boxing, Judo, Wrestling etc are often
>more effective than TMA.
or what about those silly little games the Dog Bros. play???
;-)
Bill
wrote:
>>I'll stick with integrity and willingness to tell the truth.
>>The truth is you don't have a clue about me!
>
>awwww...did i hurt you feewings, wittle guy.....
>
>like I said...truth hurts. Maybe one day you'll learn how to fight for real.
>
>until then....stay in your little hole there in Gravel Ridge...where you
>belong.
>
You aint man enough to hurt any feelings.
Got anything of value to add?
I'll go where I want When I want.
Nothing your going to do about it either son!
Perk
Grappler240
I can hurt your mother's asshole pretty well, though....
>Got anything of value to add?
do I ever???
>I'll go where I want When I want.
>Nothing your going to do about it either son!
I prefer sonny or whippersnapper.
;-P
Bill
>I can hurt your mother's asshole pretty well, though....
>
At least you admit women are about all you can hurt!
Finally the truth
Perk
BillMahoney68
> But that's the difference between Gi and me.
*That* and also the huge difference in penis size.
>Gi wants to wrassle. Two different focuses.
I am open to new ideas.,
You come to my school.
YOU can make the rules.Or wave em completely.
> One is for defense the
>other for sport
Words.
>. The sport can cross over to a point and produces some
>tough bastards. The tougher the bastard the more I cut.
Only in your fantasy world.
>Weapons training isn't for play, you have to hold back.
Cars beat weapons.
I run you over as you cross the street.
But as long as we're fantasizing....
I turn you into a newt.
Gi
Grappler240
>>
>
>At least you admit women are about all you can hurt!
>Finally the truth
>
well...she actually seems to enjoy it....and she pays well....
BillMahoney68
YOU'RE WELCOME.
No why cant the rest of you abandon your long held beliefs when I tell you too?
Gi
Grappler240
>> One is for defense the
>>other for sport
>
>Words.
>
he is good at words.
not much else, though.
BillMahoney68
>
>>> One is for defense the
>>>other for sport
>>
>>Words.
>>
>
>he is good at words.
>
>not much else, though.
You're half right.
Gi
Dougie®
wrote:
>No why cant the rest of you abandon your long held beliefs when I tell you too?
'cause I like the knife?
Kevin Lowe
billma...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote:
> >d technique?
> >From: takez...@yahoo.com
>
> > If
> >punches are more natural and effective, I wonder why Fairbairn and
> >Applegate made the chinjab such a staple in their training?
>
> They were probably clueless.
> I've seen so many supposedly brilliant grandmasters so completely idiotic
> techniwues that Ive lost count.
> It is a waste of time to wonder why.
>
> If Fairbairn seems to have more cred than Gi does, do this.
> Find a guy that will box you bare knuckle, do so.
> Then do a round with slapping.
> I assure you, you will agree with me 100% in just 2 minutes.
Well, I saw one guy winded and nearly dropped by a palm hit to the chest
- through a chest pad - by a blue belt in a SMKF class I was in.
Granted the guy was small, and so not exactly rigorous test equipment.
But the hit did the job.
How many sumo matches are won by palm KOs? I've never seen it or heard
about it happening, but I'm by no means a sumo expert. Does anyone
know? You'd expect it to happen there if it happens anywhere grappling
is allowed.
Overall, though, I'd rather wear a palm than a clenched fist any time I
had the choice.
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
Dougie®
wrote:
>Nothing particularly personal about it - I'm just an irritable
>old man who dislikes sloppy thinking and sloppy writing.
Hey, if you need to pick apart the general to build yourself
up then by all means knock yourself out. It's not upsetting and people
reading know the truth.
>PS One of the greatest problems of the street is deciding
>when an encounter is over. I have "resumed" fights after a
>hiatus of a year or more - fights the opponent thought were long
>over and had probably forgotten. My opponent - no, make that my
>victim - hadn't accurately assessed my determination to
>ultimately prevail.
You're the man.
=)
Chas
> How many sumo matches are won by palm KOs?
They sure do break collarbones regularly; separate the ac joint, and just
stop one of them rhinos dead in his 'shoot' to be thrown.
The palm strike is not only for the percussion, but to 'stick' the hand to
the body. It comes out of grappling in armor (yoroi kumi uchi) where the
manipulation of the opponent has to be done against smooth broad surfaces.
They plant the hand and then push/pull/turn with the friction of the whole
hand against the flesh.
Paul Tanenbaum
> ...
> 2 weeks after 9/11 the local news had a story about a flight attendant
> - a *black belt* - that was teaching her fellow attendants how to
> defeat hijackers. With TKD.
>
> "I am prepared... I know how to disarm a man with a knife."
>
> The footage was her *disarming* a padded dude in a dobak.
> He had a rubber knife.
>
> The disarm? A jump spin back kick.
Well, how else you gonna get over the seats? A double leg?
"And in the news tonight, there was an attempted hijacking,
with one fatality - a stewardess suffered a broken neck
when she dove at the perp and speared an upright seat back.
Authorities are investigating, saying they found on her
person printed notes from an internet cult called "rma",
with statements such as 'boxing and wrestling, these are
proven to work, it's ON VIDEO, you have to learn takedowns' "
---
Paul T.
Richard Lancashire
> > This is the same sort of fingers-in-the-ears stuff
> > that you hear from the worst TMA guys. It was stuff he learned between
> > the wars,
>
> So why are his books illustrated with Nazis as assailants?
Because it was written for people who would probably be facing
soldiers. Ever tried a right hook on someone wearing a Landwehr
helmet?
... on second thoughts, please don't answer that. :P
> > Pro boxing is a different game than fighting.
>
> Most 'fighting' is either hopeless flailing or utter dominance. The
> principles of boxing form some of the best methods ever devised to fight
> with fists in a stand-up fight.
> They are very useful in 'fighting' no matter how you wish to define it.
But two pro boxers facing each other in a ring do not fight the way
they would fight out of the ring. They pace themselves for rounds,
they play to opponents' weaknesses (obtained from studying prior form
on video), they have spent weeks working up to that one point. To say
that a certain punch isn't seen often in pro fights is fairly
meaningless. Would you expect the same ratio of jabs to hooks in the
ring as in the street?
> > You don't drive an SUV
> > round town the way you drive an F1 round Imola, do you? :P
>
> I'm afraid I do :)
Point conceded. :P
> > Because he wasn't training people in a system geared towards two
> > people approaching each other across a ring, knowing more or less
> > precisely what the other guy is going to do. I do BJJ, I love it, and
> > I have the benefit of a MA background to appreciate its power and
> > elegance more than most beginners.
>
> OK, but does what he teaches work in the environment for which it was
> created?
> I don't think I'd be too sure about answering 'yes' to that one at all.
Maybe, but I'd be less sure about answering yes to any other style.
> > By
> > comparing the system with an experiment that tests a different
> > variable, you're not being very rigorous.
>
> Thank you, that's quite true. I'd still maintain conversely that the proof
> of Fairbairn's methods is lacking.
Well, I'll grant that people who used it and survived live to sing its
praises outnumber those who died trying. :P
But he worked with boxers, wrestlers, other MAists, developing and
refining his ideas as best he could. Ring fighting with top-level
athletes didn't come into it, I grant you.
> MMA etc may not be the perfect or even a likely simulacra of what you may
> encounter, but it's more realistic
> to imagine a 150lb guy put a 240lb assailant to sleep mata leon than it is
> to see him KO'ing him with an uppercut.
I agree, but how much training and practice would that guy need to do
so?
And again, consider the circumstances they were trying to prepare them
for. Armed, similarly-sized and trained people - not many 240lb
Germans on guard duty, they were all in Russia dying for their
country. It's a quick knock-out (or knock-down, at least) of someone
who's hopefully not paying full attention, then sprint for the
hills/for the front line/for your weapon, not a contest to see who
ends up choked out or broken-armed. If they (say) have a knife in
their belt, you have to hit them to make room, not work from rear
guard.
> If someone says that ain't so, I must ask for proof - it's a claim if you
> like and I'd like to see it verified.
Wouldn't argue with the conclusion based on the premises of fully
aware, resisting and trained opponents. Which is all (as far as I
know) you have trained. There is a world of suckerpunching and set-ups
to drop untrained people fast that just isn't covered, as far as I've
seen, in BJJ - its strength is that it prepares for the worst, not the
commonest, situations. Please note, this is meant as no criticism -
any martial artist who's serious must cover the ground game, and cover
it well.
> > His system is a crash-course of what he considered the
> > easiest-to-remember techniques.
>
> OK. A crash course. So if it were you, would you teach this OR would you
> teach a good takedown, mount, arm-bar and rear-naked?
To soldiers preparing to invade Europe, more or less *totally*
untrained men, given about a half-hour (since you have to consider all
sorts of other lessons, like prisoner control and restraint)? The
former. Given a month, the former followed by the latter.
> To the original poster - it's a
> > first-shot attempt, if you do use it be sure to keep on attacking
> > before you even feel it land. If it knocks them out, great.
>
> And if it doesn't you're f***ed?
Don't be silly :P. If it doesn't you've hit them and can carry on.
> If you can
> > be bothered to learn some good boxing punches, use them instead;
> > deeper study is rewarding.
>
> Now ya talkin' :)
Fairbairn gets a raw deal, largely because of Lethalo and Defendu and
all these combatives styles making claims they shouldn't. He didn't
claim to turn people into lean, cut, unbeatable fighting machines
(unlike some combatives people), he gave untrained, scared guys a
second chance, drawing on more applied martial arts experience than
most people here. He developed a knife that's still a weapon of choice
for special forces today, and methods of sentry removal that worked
better than any others yet tried.
To say he pulled his stuff out of thin air and then proved its
effectiveness by claiming to have killed Nazis with his bare hands
does the man a great disservice, and lumps him in with a crowd he'd
avoid like the plague.
Cheers
Rich
Richard Lancashire
> translation: they can't fight HtH any better than most "martial artists"...so
> they'd ambush you like any untrained thug instead of facing you man to man.
Uh, duh. Training soldiers is about their survival, not Darwinian
selection for macho stupidity.
:P
rich
Richard Lancashire
> Overall in physical confrontation these sport arts tend to be
> on the upper eschelon of effectiveness.
They also self-select for athleticism and aggression, of course.
Compare beginner's classes at a tai chi and a muay thai school; you
think that in fights it would be 50/50?
> We're not talking weapons here. But, hey, don't assume that
> MMA guys don't train for them too. Not saying they use MMA to deal
> with it, arts that are weapon specific perhaps.
Many don't. I do, and you can tell that many don't.
> I know a 250lb guy who learned that if he threw his forearms
> up to ward off the knife slash(palms in so the back the arm is out) he
> could crash in and did serious damage. He learned it in a bar fight at
> The Ridout Tavern here in town. The guy he fought had no clue what to
> do when his opponent got past that knife. That was his error. He
> though that they never would get past the knife.
How's the knife grappling going? :)
Cheers
Rich
Paul Tanenbaum
> truth hurts. It's the only way you can win...cause you DONT train to fight.
A couple of years ago, Tito Ortiz, mma poster boy, was in London
for a tournament, and got stomped in THE STREET later in the evening.
He doesn't train to fight - he trains to play in Speedos.
That's the only way he can win - the truth hurts -
> stick with your TMAs.....it's all you can handle.
Tito should stick with ring sports... it's obviously all he can handle.
---
Paul T.
Grappler240
>for a tournament, and got stomped in THE STREET later in the evening.
>
cite??
Paul Tanenbaum
> ....
> Now why cant the rest of you abandon your long held beliefs
I'm trying, Gich, I'm trying.
For instance, I have long held the belief that L. Ron Hubbard
is a shlockmeister summa cum laude.
I am trying to abandon this belief, on your say so.
But it's hard.
---
Paul T, a humble grasshopper trying to empty his cup
Paul Tanenbaum
> ....
> Palm strikes hurt.
> Fists break things.
> ... in many drills at my school we still use full force palms.
> They hurt, but they dont send guys to the ER like punches with vale tudo
> gloves.
> Following is the ONLY reasons why a palm should be used.
> 1 You have broken your fist
> 2 You have him under control and he is hiding access to targets other than his
> skull (ex... you have low mount, he has his face in your chest and he is
> hugging you, you MIGHT wanna palm strike his skull instead of punch it,
> depending on the state of your fists, though punches cause more damage.
> 3 He is in your guard or has side on you, and his head is so high and
> tight on your body that you cannot angle your hand to get your fist
> into him(ex he is is your guard, he has his face in your chest, he is
> high on you, you might wanna slap him ears because punchuing would put your
> finger knuckles into his head which may hurt you.
>
> >
> >So the problem isn't that the chinjab is difficult to land, it's just
> >difficult to land it with enough force to make it effective?
>
> Both.
> blocked, you will hurt your fingers ALOT using your palm if your
> damage when it lands.
All true, but it's really a matter of horses for courses.
Learning to punch bare knuckle takes a lot of practice, to
protect the hand and wrist and hit precision targets. Wearing
pillows covers a multitude of sins, and doesn't prepare you for that.
When I do bare fist bag work, I place quarter sized bits of
masking tape all over it, and hit them with just the single
index finger knuckle. How many people are going to bother
training like that?
Fairbairn was trying to provide a quick and dirty fighting
system, something he thought would be useful within a short
time, not training serious ring players. So he recommended
palm strikes as a compromise.
Your objections are valid and interesting, but it's sort of an
apples and oranges comparison.
> Remember. It is about DAMAGE not pain.
> Dont assume the carjacker is a wuss that will fold to pain,
> just DAMAGE him instead.
Like with a finger lock? Where you get the best of both worlds -
---
Paul T.
Tron Furu
"Steve" <takez...@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:1ced027e.03083...@posting.google.com...
> Is the uppercut chin jab as taught by Fairbairn and his combative's
> decendants a good technique? I searched the archives for this group
> and found a post from a while back where someone said simply "doesn't
> work", without saying why. Just to be sure we're talking about the
> same thing, here's how it was shown to me years ago:
>
> It's typically an opening move, so the hands would be in a natural
> position, not up in a guard position. It's delivered with the rear
> hand, without chambering, in an uppercut motion. The power comes from
> the use of a drop-step and hip rotation.
Shouldn't somebody knowledgeable in e.g. Aiki Jutsu (not me; I know of it
from Aikido, where it is no longer explicitly taught, though) jump in here
and point out that this - the Shomen Ate - is the basic move of this family
of styles? As described, the power is in the step, but not only: There is
(supposed to be) power in the arm raised 90 % extended, like lifting a sword
for a cut, contacting the opponent on the way up and applying som sort of
"lifting power" that destabilizes the opponents footing/posture. This sort
of thing ought to be familiar in (some?) chinese styles, and maybe from
wrestling, too; judo and ju jutsu, if taught correctly, anyway. Not so much
a punch as a very hard shove.
Wasn't Fairbairn educated in pre-competition Judo? Looks like it. Much of
the techniques are throws, some ground techniques, a little atemi, and
stabdard ukemi waza ...
TF
Bill
wrote:
>>>I can hurt your mother's asshole pretty well, though....
>>>
>>
>>At least you admit women are about all you can hurt!
>>Finally the truth
>>
>
>well...she actually seems to enjoy it....and she pays well....
Pays?
You accept payment from the dead?
Your strange allright, at least they don.t get sick when they see yiu
I guess.
Perk
Bill
wrote:
>>
>>> One is for defense the
>>>other for sport
>>
>>Words.
>>
>
>he is good at words.
>
>not much else, though.
>
>G240
At least I am good at something, whats your excuse?
Perk
Bill
wrote:
He lies well. Give em credit!
Perk
Bill
Lancashire) wrote:
Picture talking to three monkeys when you try to explain this.
Hear not, see not, and talk alot
Perk
Grappler240
it took you this long to figure that out???
;-P
Grappler240
>At least I am good at something, whats your excuse?
>
I ate paint chips as a kid...
I grew up under power lines....
okay...you caught me....I got no excuses....
Kirk Lawson
>
> Is the uppercut chin jab as taught by Fairbairn and his combative's
> decendants a good technique?
Depends on how you hit him.
Of course, hitting an attacker ANYWHERE is better then not hitting him at all.
Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
GreenDistantStar
"Richard Lancashire" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ad6f59.03090...@posting.google.com...
> "GreenDistantStar" <GreenDis...@bigpond.com> wrote
> Because it was written for people who would probably be facing
> soldiers.
Oh Rich....you don't believe that, do you? Maybe he wrote the 'Spot' books
too ;>
Ever tried a right hook on someone wearing a Landwehr
> helmet?
A mace would help here.
> But two pro boxers facing each other in a ring do not fight the way
> they would fight out of the ring.
But they fight on the street using what they've learned in the ring.
They pace themselves for rounds,
> they play to opponents' weaknesses (obtained from studying prior form
> on video), they have spent weeks working up to that one point.
That's just the fight in front of them.
To say
> that a certain punch isn't seen often in pro fights is fairly
> meaningless.
I don't think that's so.I think you've got this around the wrong way.
Uppercuts are not used frequently in most pro fights, and it's a rare bout
that ends in an uppercut KO. Lewis' KO over Grant is a good example of one
that worked. On the street, you are not likely to be in a position to throw
one and make it work.
Would you expect the same ratio of jabs to hooks in the
> ring as in the street?
Look at how many punches are thrown in the type of pro fight you have
described. How many in a street fight?
> Well, I'll grant that people who used it and survived live to sing its
> praises outnumber those who died trying. :P
How many survived due to uppercuts? Bugger-all I'd imagine.
> > MMA etc may not be the perfect or even a likely simulacra of what you
may
> > encounter, but it's more realistic
> > to imagine a 150lb guy put a 240lb assailant to sleep mata leon than it
is
> > to see him KO'ing him with an uppercut.
>
> I agree, but how much training and practice would that guy need to do
> so?
Not a lot. I trained with some guys tonight as we ran through these very
moves.
The guy I spent most of the class with was a complete newbie - first night.
By the end of the class, he had a pretty good handle on it and could likely
pull it
off if he had to. In six months time you could bet the house on it.
>
> And again, consider the circumstances they were trying to prepare them
> for. Armed, similarly-sized and trained people - not many 240lb
> Germans on guard duty, they were all in Russia dying for their
> country. It's a quick knock-out (or knock-down, at least) of someone
> who's hopefully not paying full attention, then sprint for the
> hills/for the front line/for your weapon, not a contest to see who
> ends up choked out or broken-armed. If they (say) have a knife in
> their belt, you have to hit them to make room, not work from rear
> guard.
Quick KOs are rare. If that's all you come up with and it fails (and it most
likely will) you are fucked.
Working from behind your opponent is just fine thank you. It's hard to stab
someone if they have taken your back and
are ploughing elbows into your spine.
>
> > If someone says that ain't so, I must ask for proof - it's a claim if
you
> > like and I'd like to see it verified.
>
> Wouldn't argue with the conclusion based on the premises of fully
> aware, resisting and trained opponents. Which is all (as far as I
> know) you have trained. There is a world of suckerpunching and set-ups
> to drop untrained people fast that just isn't covered, as far as I've
> seen, in BJJ - its strength is that it prepares for the worst, not the
> commonest, situations. Please note, this is meant as no criticism -
> any martial artist who's serious must cover the ground game, and cover
> it well.
Sure enough. It does help to know how to punch/strike correctly which
increases your chances of a
one hit encounter. Even then, it's highly likely that it won't happen and
any system that advocates this
must have a plan B.
> > OK. A crash course. So if it were you, would you teach this OR would you
> > teach a good takedown, mount, arm-bar and rear-naked?
>
> To soldiers preparing to invade Europe, more or less *totally*
> untrained men, given about a half-hour (since you have to consider all
> sorts of other lessons, like prisoner control and restraint)? The
> former. Given a month, the former followed by the latter.
Half an hour? Little of significant benefit can be imparted in half an hour.
Give 'em a bottle of whiskey and tell 'em to keep their heads down.
> Don't be silly :P. If it doesn't you've hit them and can carry on.
So you hit them and they smile back at you. What then my friend....what
then....?
> Fairbairn gets a raw deal, largely because of Lethalo and Defendu and
> all these combatives styles making claims they shouldn't. He didn't
> claim to turn people into lean, cut, unbeatable fighting machines
> (unlike some combatives people), he gave untrained, scared guys a
> second chance, drawing on more applied martial arts experience than
> most people here. He developed a knife that's still a weapon of choice
> for special forces today, and methods of sentry removal that worked
> better than any others yet tried.
>
> To say he pulled his stuff out of thin air and then proved its
> effectiveness by claiming to have killed Nazis with his bare hands
> does the man a great disservice, and lumps him in with a crowd he'd
> avoid like the plague.
Fairbairn has a lot of gung-ho fans here and in NZ. They run paramilitary
training camps etc.
I thought it only took half an hour? :)
Peter
Kirk Lawson
> And Fairbairn's techniques have been
> > tried and tested - not for some silly belt, but for one's life!
>
> 'Tried and tested" ?
Yes.
> By whom?
By Fairbairn and a number of men he trained, many of them Chinese, i.e., the
Shanghai PD.
> Where?
On the Tong (gang) controled streets of Shanghai. Drug dealers, assasins,
rapists, you know the type. Their enforcers were called "The Hatchet Men."
> When?
1920's to 1930's or so.
> Whose testimony?
The Shanghai Municipal Police force of the International Settlement and the
street gang members that they beat up.
> The answer usually is "Fairbairn told someone he was attacked in a train
> somewhere by some unnamed German soldier sometime in the 1940s"
Not in this case.
> So when Fairbairn says an uppercut is a highly effective fighting move (it
> is, but it's a low % shot, not for the weak [no leverage] and note that even
> for pro boxers it's the most infrequently thrown punch) we should believe
> him and his incontrovertable evidence rather than the evidence of all the
> NHB fights ever held?
Yes.
Kirk Lawson
>
> >>You are sreaking as a theorist, not a fighter.
> >>Fighters know hitting exact targets are hard.They just throw and hope.
> >>Gi
> >
>
> Applegate or Fairbairn by bleed out in 12 seconds of 1st threatening
> twitch of the lip.
>
> Perk
Applegate, in particular, was something of a noted Knife Fighter (as opposed to
a Knife Duelist). Real life knife experience under his belt.
Kirk Lawson
> >It is you who is the theorist, playing your MMA game. Fairnbairn
> >had a lifetime of experience where it matters - on the streets.
>
> Fairbairn is a fraud.
> A real fighter can see through him.
> You are not a real fighter, therefore you are not equipt with the needed tools
> to discern reality from fiction.
>
> Herein lies our conflict.
> Gi
Now you're just trolling, gi.
Grappler240
>Now you're just trolling, gi.
aint nuthin' wrong with a little trollin'.