Why no 'karate chops' in UFC-style fighting?
Charles A. Catalano
immediately comes to mind. Who hasn't seen some gi-clad "karate expert"
chopping through a stack of wooden boards?
Then, with all the "karate masters" who've competed in UFC -- from
Fred Ettish to Ryan Parker -- hasn't one of them used this supposedly
effective strike to beat an opponent, or even to TRY to beat their
opponent?
Richard Wu
: When one thinks about traditional karate, the famed "karate chop"
cuz they suck. i give credit to Ettish. he had heart. but Parker was
bragging months before his UFC that he's kick everybody's ass and that
his fighting style was the best. Parker showed the world that he's full
of shit, and i'm gonna stop right there with my insults because i know
that there are plenty of others on rec.martial arts flaming Parker.
in my honest opinion, i don't think there have been any quality fighters
representing karate in the UFC. I think any decent karate guy would do
better than those two.
Rick Shank
Matt Madsen <mma...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <4fas2h$g...@reader2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Charles A. Catalano <joe...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> When one thinks about traditional karate, the famed "karate chop"
>>immediately comes to mind. Who hasn't seen some gi-clad "karate expert"
>>chopping through a stack of wooden boards?
>> Then, with all the "karate masters" who've competed in UFC -- from
>>Fred Ettish to Ryan Parker -- hasn't one of them used this supposedly
>>effective strike to beat an opponent, or even to TRY to beat their
>>opponent?
>
>real use is to the throat (against a guy who doesn't realize he has
>a nice hard chin).
>
I somehow think it would be difficult to stop a knife hand to the side
or back of the neck with your chin. :^) In wing chun, knife hand
techniques are considered so dangerous, they are not taught to beginners
at all. It is reserved for primary or secondary (our equivalent of 1st
and 2nd degree black belt) and above. They don't want us killing each
other I guess. :^)
A chop to the side of the head can get pretty rattling too but I don't
know if you can take someone out with it like you can with the neck.
Rick
See, grapplers and strikers can disagree without pissing all over each
other.
--
Disclaimer: Not only are these NOT necessarily the opinions of the great company
I work for - AMD, they may not even be the opinions of this author. If you are
smart, you will take this post as the scribblings of a madman and ignore it.
"I know NUSSING, absolutely nussing." Sgt. Schultz
Matt Madsen
Charles A. Catalano <joe...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> When one thinks about traditional karate, the famed "karate chop"
>immediately comes to mind. Who hasn't seen some gi-clad "karate expert"
>chopping through a stack of wooden boards?
> Then, with all the "karate masters" who've competed in UFC -- from
>Fred Ettish to Ryan Parker -- hasn't one of them used this supposedly
>effective strike to beat an opponent, or even to TRY to beat their
>opponent?
The knife-hand ("chop") isn't very effective in general. It's only
real use is to the throat (against a guy who doesn't realize he has
a nice hard chin).
Matt Madsen
Matt Madsen
Rick Shank <ri...@lagrange.amd.com> wrote:
>In article <mmadsenD...@netcom.com>,
>Matt Madsen <mma...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>The knife-hand ("chop") isn't very effective in general. It's only
>>real use is to the throat (against a guy who doesn't realize he has
>>a nice hard chin).
>
>I somehow think it would be difficult to stop a knife hand to the side
>or back of the neck with your chin. :^)
Against a knife-hand to the front, you lower your chin; to the side,
you raise your shoulder. The "problem" with a knife-hand is that it
offers no advantage except in reaching those hard-to-reach places.
Those hard-to-reach places are easy to protect.
And if the guy gets a clean strike to the back of your head, you're
doing something very, very wrong. Besides, I think a normal fist
will transfer more energy (which is more important gernerally).
>In wing chun, knife hand
>techniques are considered so dangerous, they are not taught to beginners
>at all. It is reserved for primary or secondary (our equivalent of 1st
>and 2nd degree black belt) and above. They don't want us killing each
>other I guess. :^)
Or breaking your hands. Really though, the point of the reduced striking
area is to get in those neat nooks and crannies, and no one wants to
practice taking those blows. It's like practicing the last half-inch
of an arm-bar (snap!). _If_ you land a knife-hand to a vulnerable
spot, sure it's effective, but you can't land one against a relatively
conscious opponent.
>A chop to the side of the head can get pretty rattling too but I don't
>know if you can take someone out with it like you can with the neck.
A normal fist'll clock 'im jus' fine.
>Rick
Matt Madsen
pen...@rapidramp.com
Shimabuku could drive nails with his? Hm. He must not have known.
Probably couldn't break a jaw with a strike like than anyway - it was
only a nail after all, and nails don't hit back.
An alternate explanation is that there have never been any masters of
anything in UFC. That would explain a lot of the problem. Hm......
Drew Shintani
: Charles A. Catalano (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: : When one thinks about traditional karate, the famed "karate chop"
: : immediately comes to mind. Who hasn't seen some gi-clad "karate expert"
: : chopping through a stack of wooden boards?
: : Then, with all the "karate masters" who've competed in UFC -- from
: : Fred Ettish to Ryan Parker -- hasn't one of them used this supposedly
: : effective strike to beat an opponent, or even to TRY to beat their
: : opponent?
: cuz they suck. i give credit to Ettish. he had heart. but Parker was
: bragging months before his UFC that he's kick everybody's ass and that
: his fighting style was the best. Parker showed the world that he's full
: of shit, and i'm gonna stop right there with my insults because i know
: that there are plenty of others on rec.martial arts flaming Parker.
: in my honest opinion, i don't think there have been any quality fighters
: representing karate in the UFC. I think any decent karate guy would do
: better than those two.
richard:
people practice ma on a recreational level and get pretty good at it.
they compete to test their skills but only in an environment they're
familiar with. they don't cross-train and they grow up thinking they're
pretty good until they come against someone who fights no-rules for a
living and then whamo! like so many gracie victims their world crashes
in and all their training has been a lie. i guess the moral of the story
is don't think a recreational martial artist belongs in the same ring as
a someone who does it for a living.
drew
John Jermanis
>It's interesting to hear that the knifehand is ineffective. I wonder why
>Shimabuku could drive nails with his? Hm. He must not have known.
>Probably couldn't break a jaw with a strike like than anyway - it was
>only a nail after all, and nails don't hit back.
Hmmm... I can break boards really easy with an ax kick. Maybe I should
use that technique in a lot more of my fights.
>An alternate explanation is that there have never been any masters of
>anything in UFC. That would explain a lot of the problem. Hm......
Yep, the UFC is beneath true masters. Real masters demonstrate their
skills against inanimate objects, not other people.
John
Dave Weinstein
I always thought the benefits of a knife edge strike were reduced area of
impact, and angle of attack. You can, of course, strike the same areas
with fists, and debatably to greater effect as far as striking force goes.
But-- If I am close, and cannot take the time to turn my body and throw a
punch(with any real force), I can execute a knife edge while turning to
face my opponent, and with skill, make it a good hit while getting myself
back facing the opponent. If I can avoid getting my arm trapped, I can
also use the arm to block once it is up there.
Dave
HntrRos
real use is to the throat (against a guy who doesn't realize he has
a nice hard chin).>>
What of such strikes to the back of the neck? Yes, they may not be very
effective against a skilled opponent, but there is a nerve ending around
there(I recall an incident from gradeschool whereinwhich one diminutive
bully(a supposed black-belt) attacked a far larger child- and was nearly
killed when this attack was launched).
fe...@clark.net
Joshua Thaler
: I always thought the benefits of a knife edge strike were reduced area of
: Dave
Dave, the reason is simple. If the Gracies didn't work to keep good
karate guys out of the UFC, we would see like half the people dead from
karate chops. My sensei can break like five cement blocks with his karate
chops. Do you think if Gracie were shoot in and my sensei chops him on
the head? result two dead Gracies because he'd be split in half!!
Joshua Thaler
humor impaired. If you agreed with what I said, you've been
watching too many Ginsu knife commercials.
Evan Schlesinger
The Gracies have no control over who enters the UFC since they sold their
share of SEG, and second, they have had some fairly good "karate guys" in the
UFC, and they got thrashed.
EVAN
NO TAGLINES NECESSARY
an...@map.com
I just think that the 'karate chop' technique is only truly effective if in
close and you have time to execute it (i.e. meditation before breaking the 5
cinder blocks). In a real fight you can't summon your chi, adrenaline, or
whatever else you call on to make the shuto truly powerful as your opponent is
just as good as you (or better in the case of the karate guys in the UFC). The
karate guys don't have the proper circumstances in the UFC fights to use the
chop (no cinder blocks just sitting their while they do their kibuke breathing)
Just a thought, don't flame me please.
Andy
R. A. Holt
Last time i checked cement blocks did not move a whole hell of lot.
I think you see no chops is because the're so slow compared to other strikes.
Same for fancy kicks. ( I do like some kicks, mae kin keri, yoko keri, ma washi keri)
Also chops are relativeliy easy to block as compared to punches.
L8r RAH
Marc Kompaneyets
: In article <4g8tei$i...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
: Joshua Thaler <jth...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
: >Dave Weinstein (bon...@shellx.best.com) wrote:
: >
: >: I always thought the benefits of a knife edge strike were reduced area of
: >: impact, and angle of attack. You can, of course, strike the same areas
: >: with fists, and debatably to greater effect as far as striking force goes.
: >: But-- If I am close, and cannot take the time to turn my body and throw a
: >: punch(with any real force), I can execute a knife edge while turning to
: >: face my opponent, and with skill, make it a good hit while getting myself
: >: back facing the opponent. If I can avoid getting my arm trapped, I can
: >: also use the arm to block once it is up there.
: >
: >
: >: Dave
: >
: > Dave, the reason is simple. If the Gracies didn't work to keep good
: >karate guys out of the UFC, we would see like half the people dead from
: >karate chops. My sensei can break like five cement blocks with his karate
: >chops. Do you think if Gracie were shoot in and my sensei chops him on
: >the head? result two dead Gracies because he'd be split in half!!
: The Gracies have no control over who enters the UFC since they sold their
: share of SEG, and second, they have had some fairly good "karate guys" in the
: UFC, and they got thrashed.
: EVAN
: NO TAGLINES NECESSARY
Dude,...everybody knows that the Gracies, like totally, control the UFC,
so stop "joshing" around. Anyway, no good karatey guy will enter the UFC,
'cause they can't use their deadliest weapuns. Like what if a Gracie was
told that he could use any of his weapuns like lying on the floor like a
bitch and waiting for the time to run out. Do you think that a Gracie
would fight? Heck no!! I disagree with Josh on one thing, though. I just
don't think that a karatey knife-punch would split a Gracie in half. I
just think it would be messyer than that...brains and organs everywhere.
Karatey roolz!!!
Marc :P
Sean Hartigan
: <<The knife-hand ("chop") isn't very effective in general. It's only
: real use is to the throat (against a guy who doesn't realize he has
: a nice hard chin).>>
The UFC is a sport, where the objective is to knock the other guy
out or make him submit. Most open-hand karate techniques are
designed to be used against soft targets, like the throat (as
the above poster mentions). They're not particularly useful in a
situation where you don't want to kill or permanently injure
your opponent.
I have a personal theory about this issue, actually. I've known a few
people who've developed serious infections from punching someone
in the mouth with no gloves. If you cut your fist on someone else's
teeth, you'll probably get an infection that would kill you in
a pre-antibiotic age. Punching to the head was thus a _real bad_
idea back in the old days. Thus, the development of all kinds
of ways to hurt your opponent without dying a few days later
yourself of blood poisoning.
I have no idea if this is right or not, but it's my theory, and
I'm proud of it, dammit.
-- Sean H.
AgentSav
> in my honest opinion, i don't think there have been any quality fighters
>: : representing karate in the UFC. I think any decent karate guy would
do
>: : better than those two.
Have you ever thought that "decent fighters" don't treat martial arts as a
sport. The reason there are no "karate chops" is because there is a
complete lack of control displayed by competition fighters.
---------------- "Play for plays sake, kill to survive"-------Hanshi
Shudin P. Delane
Ebola
:
: Like what if a Gracie was
: bitch and waiting for the time to run out.
Hahahhahahahahahah! Ok people! I know that some of you will talk crap to
me for this, but when I read this, I BURST into laughter! Dude (Marc) I
HAD to give you props for having me CRACK UP when I read the above!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE EBOLA VIRUS
This virus is considered to be the second most devastating virus of the
20th century. Below is an electron scanned micrograph of a single virus
particle:
___
\ \
\ \
\ \
\ \
\ \
\ \
\ \
\ \
\ \
______ \ \
/ __ \ ) )
| | |__| / /
| | / /
| \___/ /
\_____/
Fig. 1: Ebola virus particle. Zaire subtype. Unfixed diagnostic specimen
from first vero cell passage to first human blood specimin examined in
the 1976 epidemic. The above sample is a filamentous virion,
unpenetrated, magnified 35,000 times by negative contrast medium (sodium
phosphotungstate).
Below is a description of the final stages of the disease's path
in a human host:
"He leans over, head on his knees, and brings up an incredible quantity
of blood from his stomach and spills it onto the floor. The only sound is
a choking from his throat as he continues to vomit blood and black matter
while unconscious. Then comes a sound like a bedsheet being torn in half,
which is the sound of his bowels opening and venting blood from the anus.
He is bleeding from every orifice in his body."
Machupo AIDS
Marburg Toxic Shock Syndrome
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Lassa Cholera
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EBOLA RESTON......EBOLA SUDAN......EBOLA ZAIRE......And NOW......EBOLA TAI!
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Kompaneyets
: : Marc Kompaneyets (mkom...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
: :
: : Like what if a Gracie was
: : told that he could use any of his weapuns like lying on the floor like a
: : bitch and waiting for the time to run out.
Well...glad you liked my teen-ager karate moron imitation. BTW...what's up
with your sig? I've seen big fans of Cholera and the Plague before but
never of Ebola.:)
: Hahahhahahahahahah! Ok people! I know that some of you will talk crap to
JOE GASPER
Aside from the "karate chops", do you train ? If so, what style, and where ?
Joe
Paul Browne
: In article <4g8tei$i...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
: Joshua Thaler <jth...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
:
: > Dave, the reason is simple. If the Gracies didn't work to keep good
: >karate guys out of the UFC, we would see like half the people dead from
: >karate chops. My sensei can break like five cement blocks with his karate
: >chops. Do you think if Gracie were shoot in and my sensei chops him on
: >the head? result two dead Gracies because he'd be split in half!!
: The Gracies have no control over who enters the UFC since they sold their
: share of SEG, and second they have had some fairly good "karate guys" in the
: UFC, and they got thrashed.
: EVAN
: NO TAGLINES NECESSARY
...Ya but notice that Royce Gracie no longer competes in UFC since
"they sold their share of SEG" and they "have no control over who enters
the UFC", in other words in the early days Royce's brother could handpick
Royce's opponents, when this was no longer true, no Royce in UFC...
On the second point, I defy anyone to name a fairly good "karate
guy" in UFC cos there haven't been any. But if you're a Gracie fan watch
a tape of Moreira in the last UFC running..."Gracie Jiu Jitsu in action"
hehehe
PB
Charles
have been experienced "champions" in their own right. "Karate expert"
Fred Ettish, you may recall, appeared in UFC II, and obviously knew
what the heck he was getting himself into. Ditto Ryan Parker. yet
karate practitioners have not fared well in that shit-hits-the-fan,
no-excuses-wanted format. Why not?
I doubt that I, were I one of Royce's brothers and having "pull" in
the selection of opponents, would have "set up" the totally-anticipated
match between Royce and Ken Shamrock starting in the VERY FIRST UFC.
In <4hpj37$d...@mycroft.westnet.com> pbr...@westnet.com (Paul Browne)
writes:
Martelle Michael B
: Evan Schlesinger (esc...@merle.acns.nwu.edu) wrote:
: : In article <4g8tei$i...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
: : Joshua Thaler <jth...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
: :
: : >
: : > Dave, the reason is simple. If the Gracies didn't work to keep good
: : >karate guys out of the UFC, we would see like half the people dead from
: : >karate chops. My sensei can break like five cement blocks with his karate
: : >chops. Do you think if Gracie were shoot in and my sensei chops him on
: : >the head? result two dead Gracies because he'd be split in half!!
I cant' believe some moron thinks this. Not only are chops legal, and
always have been in UFC, but they're a crap technique. Look at Muay Thai,
and Pancrase. There's a reason why it never gets used there.
: : The Gracies have no control over who enters the UFC since they sold their
Sean Hartigan
If you know anything about traditional karate, you know that karate
is not a punching/kicking art. I've said this many times on
this newsgroup, but I don't think anyone believes me. :)
The open-hand techniques that characterize traditional karate
are designed to be used against soft targets to maim and kill.
They involve things like crushing windpipes, breaking necks, and
puncturing eyeballs. Only a psychotic lunatic would try to use
techniques like this in a sport tournament like the UFC, even
if they weren't banned by the rules (which they are).
You can't judge the effectiveness of karate by what you see in
the UFC, because karate is not designed for sport. The best mix
for the UFC (as we have seen) is a combination of boxing, the
most highly refined sport striking style, and some form of
sport wrestling. Styles _designed_ for a sport environment.
As for the usefulness of the "chop" (shuto) in the UFC, in my experience
the shuto is an "iffy" technique that is best used against people of
lower skill level than yourself. A shuto to the temple or side
of the neck from the right person will take most people out, but
it's a hard technique to land (and even harder to land with
power).
Against someone who is really not up to your level, though, it could
be a good way to drop them without necessarily crippling or killing
them -- or breaking your hand on their noggin or giving yourself
a dangerous infection by cutting your knuckles on their teeth.
-- Sean H. (karateka and judoka)
mehi...@gmail.com
> When one thinks about traditional karate, the famed "karate chop"
> immediately comes to mind. Who hasn't seen some gi-clad "karate expert"
> chopping through a stack of wooden boards?
> Then, with all the "karate masters" who've competed in UFC -- from
> Fred Ettish to Ryan Parker -- hasn't one of them used this supposedly
> effective strike to beat an opponent, or even to TRY to beat their
> opponent?