Lets talk Shotokan
Brad Webb
|> Any Shotokan guys out there familiar with David Woods or Frank Smith?
|> Woods is by far the fastest/toughest shotokan guy I have ever seen and
|> he says that Frank Smith is beyond him. Just wondering if anyone else
|> knew of these guys.
|>
|> - Matt
|>
I'd heard of Frank Smith, but not David Woods. Where's he from, who
does/has he trained under?
I'd appreciated any info. Thanks.
Brad.
--
Brad Webb, reply to:erw...@rwasic33.aud.alcatel.com (mine bounces)
Japan Shotokan Dallas,TX. Nortel, Inc. (214)684-1737
(214) 231-4922 Me represent NT? I think not.
Seek perfection of character. Don't make them laugh so hard.
ERIC
>
>Any Shotokan guys out there familiar with David Woods or Frank Smith?
>Woods is by far the fastest/toughest shotokan guy I have ever seen and
>he says that Frank Smith is beyond him. Just wondering if anyone else
>knew of these guys.
>
>- Matt
>
I know of Frank Smith. He use to train with Nishiyama in the 60's. He
was, maybe still is, an animal, a real bone crusher. He didn't use to
be that way until one day at L.A. Central, Enoeda Sensei (another bone
crusher) came to visit Nishiyama Sensei. While sparring with Frank,
Enoeda decided to connect with one of his roundhouse kicks (I hope some
of those folk that think that a roundhouse kick is worthless take
note). The kick broke Frank's jaw and sent him to the hospital. He got
to have his jaw wired shut for some time. After this incident Frank
decided that he could also play this "game". He, Ray Dalke, & James
Yabe were able to stand toe to toe with the best that the world had,
including Japan, and win!! Yes, Frank Smith was (is?) the best. Big
(6'1", 6'2", something like that. about 200lbs), strong, fast, and
basically a killer, loved to hit (they all did at that time).
Brad Webb
|> Can anyone tell me how he would do against someone like Avi Rokah or Paul
|> Vance?
I've never met Frank Smith, but from what I'd heard he'd
just stomp all of us... Avi's timing is damn good, but
from the stories Frank's was just as good(if not better).
And Avi and Ron fight nightly....
And Frank was much stronger, bigger, meaner....
Nothing against Avi or Ron cause they work mother hard & bust my
butt every time we train together.
A friend tells of the one time he got to watch Frank Smith win
some type of ISKF tourny... Apparently my friend took a photo
of Frank just as the match started... He said that Frank looked like
he was just going eat his opponent alive.
Brad "Screams, what screams."
Brad Webb
|> Can anyone tell me how he would do against someone like Avi Rokah or Paul
|> Vance?
I assumed you were talking of F Smith.
Brad "I hope I didn't make an ASS U ME"
ERIC
>some type of ISKF tourny... Apparently my friend took a photo
>of Frank just as the match started... He said that Frank looked like
>he was just going eat his opponent alive.
That's because that's the way all the old timers were taught. It
was straight ahead, tear your opponent's head off, training. There were
many injuries, hense the reason that they don't train like that any
more. The rest of the world still does. But here in the good ol USA,
litigation capital of the universe, it's too dangerous to teach this
way.
ERIC
>break-your-bones roundhouses I discussed on another post, and boom!
Sure
>enough, Smith's jaw is broken. Now here's the punchline: time out is
called,
>Smith calmly walks over and asks for a towel, blood coming out of his
mouth.
>He wraps the towel around his head and jaw, goes back on the mat and
resumes
>kumite. Comment among the dignitaries: (imitate proper Japanese
growl and
>approving nod) "good spirit!"
I've never heard this part of the story, but I don't doubt it a
bit. The old timers were indeed animals. My old instructor, Enzo
Ortega, trained with these guys in the late 60's early 70's, and he fit
right in with this group. When it comes to sparing, he almost
salivates, absolutely loves it. His big goal was to beat Frank, and at
one point he felt he could of. Unfortuneatly Frank didn't have his gi
and declined Enzo's invitation. We'll never know what would have
happened. Enzo had been beaten (literally) many times by Frank (8
broken noses to be exact). Can you tell me how sure you are of these
last details of the fight between Frank and Enoeda, the part about
wrapping the towel around and continuing?
>
>Moral:
>(1) yes, JKA old-timers are nuts. This kind of thing was routine.
Undoubtedly!!! And indeed it was!!!! Good to hear the rest of the
story. Thanks..
Eric
QUARK
>From: eric...@ix.netcom.com (ERIC )
>Subject: Re: Lets talk Shotokan
>Date: 2 Oct 1995 20:11:22 GMT
Well, it's a little more subtle than a mean, hungry look in the eye. These
guys were taught by a generation of Japanese teachers to whom the concept of
"austere discipline" is a way of life. The psychological training comes from
old traditions of swordsmanship, where concepts of zanshin, sen (initiative),
suki (lapses or gaps) and the like are very important. When you hear an
old-timer say something like "make the whole body an eye", he's talking about
this kind of awareness. It takes into account both sharp observation/accute
peripheral vision and intuitive penetration of the global state of affairs
both.
Hence, when Frank Smith is squaring off on an opponent and his eyes are
wide-open and he looks ready to pounce, it is a reflection of his own
psychological awareness. If you carefully observe the eyes of a world-class
karateka, such as the old-time JKAers, you'll notice this awe-inspiring
global gaze when they do kumite or kata both. Kanazawa Hirokazu's eyes during
sparring seem to fill the entire room. It's a marvelous thing. You'll see
the same phenomenon observing, say, a self-portrait of swordsman Musashi
Miyamoto's face: look at the gaze. The awareness of seeing "in all eight
directions" is emphasized even in a painting.
Q.
John William Price
Is Frank Smith with Nishiyama Sensie now.
If not, why not.
Who is the Shotokan person to look out for now??
Brad Webb
|> Osu Eric and Brad and everyone else.
|>
|> Is Frank Smith with Nishiyama Sensie now.
|> If not, why not.
Yes & no. Yes, he is a Nishiyama student and will always be.
No, he does not currently train with Sensei (AFAIK) because of
personal reasons.
|>
|> Who is the Shotokan person to look out for now??
|>
My personal favorite is Gusto Gomez out of Argentina.
He's big enough(6'2"), fairly fast, strong as an ox, hard headed,
and a great gentleman.
I watched a brazilian split his face in 94. The doctors wouldn't
let him keep fighting until it got sewed up, so he had them patch
that puppy right there, no pain killer, just sew it shut so he
could keep going.
Most of the other people I like are retired. Like Frank Brennen &
Ronnie Christopher out of Britain. (They just retired in 94/95.)
The Brazilians have a good base, as well as the east europeans.
In the US we have a good number of people, but the base is divided
by two things: distances & politics(so much).
In shotokan politics you have Nishiyama, Okazaki, Dalke,
Hassell, Yamazaki, Kanazawa, etc.
For distances:
Take Italy, if you want to get a national team together and
work out every weekend, you can do it for cheap. Maybe 25/50
bucks a trip(by train). Pick a central location, every body
leave Friday night, get there ready to work Sat Morning.
8 to 12 hours sleeping train travel at most, usually less.
In the US Nishiyama has Avi Rokah, Dalke has Kev Warner, Okazaki
has people like Johnny Caluda, & each sensei has more.
I don't know the other peoples organizations well enough to
talk about them.
Anyway enough BS... TTFN
Brad.
Puckman25
thanks to the original poster. Incidentally, can anyone tell me
where(regions, states, cities) the best Shotokan schools are in the U.S.
ERIC
Price) writes:
>
>Osu Eric and Brad and everyone else.
>
>Is Frank Smith with Nishiyama Sensie now.
>If not, why not.
>
>
Hi there. No, Frank hasn't been with Nishiyama Sensei for many years
now. I don't even think that he visits Nishiyama. It seems that almost
all the old time great from L.A. have fallen away from Nishiyama. I
have never really gotten a good explaination for the parting of the
ways, but it's not uncommon as I have seen many people take exception
(being kind here) with Nishiyama Sensei. The last that I heard about
Frank Smith was that he was teaching at Ray Dalke's dojo out in
Riverside, Calif. The only one of the old timers that I know of that
still trains with Nishiyama Sensie is James Yabe. As far as who is the
one to watch out for I really can't say. I may be a pompus ass, but I
don't think that much of anyone that I've seen lately. Don't get me
wrong, it's not that I'm better than the rest. I'm simply comparing
what I see today (in the U.S.) with what I saw back in the 70's.
Outside the U.S. there are a whole host of greats. There is a guy by
the name of Gomez from Argentina that is great!!! He is very good at
kumite, good timing, good power. Not very flashiy, but very effective.
There are many great over in Europe, especially Italy. I haven't seen
very many from Japan, but I would assume that there are still at least
one or two good people over there (read humorously).
ERIC
writes:
That's a tuff one, as everyone has their own opinion as to what
constitutes being the best. Nishiyama in L.A. still turns out your
better than average karateka, but the quality of competitors recently
isn't as good as the past. He still has a great kata competetor in
Albert Cheah (my sensei), but he would like to retire from competition
(I think). Ron Vance and Avi Rokah (sp?) still seem to do well in
kumite. There is a very good instructor in the Chicago area, Western
Springs to be exact. Name's Enzo Ortega. He is one of Nishiyama's old
studends. He use to train with Frank Smith, Ray Dalke, etc. He is a
warrior in every sense. Still teaches the old way. If you want to be
tuff in kumite, it's the only way to train. Albert Cheah is in Orange
County, Calif. He is a very good instructor for basics and kata.
Eric
ERIC
I am very intrigued with all your post. You obviously know a great deal
about Shotokan. Where do you train, and who is your sensei? All your
post have been dead on. Good job.
Eric.
Scott Berner
The BEST Shotokan comes from the school of Sensei George Alexander. He's
out west. I have some of his tapes on traditional forms and the
interpretation of same that are very satisfying to the serious student of
martial arts. He and George Dillman are a lot alike. Got any tapes to trade?
noah
amba...@worldweb.net
> It's about time we had some quality Shotokan discussions on here. My
> thanks to the original poster. Incidentally, can anyone tell me
> where(regions, states, cities) the best Shotokan schools are in the U.S.
>
>
>>>>
amba...@worldweb.net
Richard Mak
10-15 years ago. Just wondering if anyone knew of them and where the
instructors are today.
--
--------------------------------
Richard Mak (r...@proteon.com)
Martin Kunert
Who is the Shotokan person to look out for now??
>>
Avi Rokah
ERIC
Price) writes:
>
>Augsto Gomez,
>
>Is my Idol.
>
>I have a couple of viseo tapes of him at the ITKF worlds in Montreal
and
>Italy.
>
>The guy can fight from both his left and right side. His punches and
>kicks are equal on both sides.
>
>His spirit, well I haven't seen anything like it before.
>
>Most of all, he is good, he knows it, and does it he act cocky? No. He
>bows and says Osu whenever pointed at. Never jumps around when he wins
a
>fight.
>
>To me, he seems to be what ITKf represents.
>
>Of course Brad I seen you fight, and gotta say your' a smart fighter.
I
>was looking at the tape where you clipped the Italian fighter in the
>privates (by mistake) and to keep him from dropping (and from earning
a
>penalty point) you caught him and help him up. Nice move.
>
>Eric, see you later. But, I am impressed.
>
>To other Shotokan people, Osu
>
>John Price
>
>
>By the way I like gomez's fighting, not his big ugly mug
No doubt about it, Gomez is a world class karateka. He's tuff, quick,
great timing, and a real gentleman. A friend of mine went down to meet
him just after he had won kumite in Montreal. My friend, Enzo Ortega,
is not easily impressed as he use to be one of the head hunters in
Nishiyama's dojo, and trained with the likes of Frank Smith, Ray Dalke,
James Yabe, etc. But he was thoroughly impressed by Gomez's speed,
power, and timing. After meeting him (he asked for an autograph for his
6 year old son, and Gomez was gracious enough to oblige), Enzo was then
impressed at how nice he is. We need more karatekas like Sampi Gomez.
Eric...
george weller
> Avi Rokah
Dunno if you guys have seen Kanazawa's top competitor, but he is
incredible. His hand speed, timing, etc is something to behold.
Alejandro Castro and Murakami (don't know his first name) were sparring at
our dojo some time back and it was definitely a match I will never forget.
Murakami is the current SKI world champion, I'm not sure how often he
competes in other organization's tournaments, but the last time he entered
the Las Vegas Okazaki tournament, he won.