wing chun vs. bak mei
clas...@aol.com
I have heard about the bak mei (white eyebrow) school of kung fu and that
it is a great style. It appears to be very difficult to find schools (I
have only seen two on the net - those in chattanooga, TN and NYC). Anyone
know of any other schools out there in bak mei? Also, how does Bak Mei
compare to wing chun? I have heard that the Bak Mei and wing chun styles
are "natural enemies" because the founder of bak mei developed the style
in part keeping in mind the need to protect himself from wing chun
stylists who opposed the Ching Dynasty. Anyone know more? Thanks
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David Williams
clas...@aol.com wrote:
: I have heard about the bak mei (white eyebrow) school of kung fu and that
: it is a great style. It appears to be very difficult to find schools (I
: have only seen two on the net - those in chattanooga, TN and NYC). Anyone
: know of any other schools out there in bak mei? Also, how does Bak Mei
: compare to wing chun? I have heard that the Bak Mei and wing chun styles
: are "natural enemies" because the founder of bak mei developed the style
: in part keeping in mind the need to protect himself from wing chun
: stylists who opposed the Ching Dynasty. Anyone know more? Thanks
No your posting of them being "natural enemies" is the first I've
heard of this story. Sounds fishy to me.
There was/is no animosity between the two styles.
--
David Williams mailto:d...@wingchun.com
Planet Wing Chun® http://www.wingchun.com/
Bay Area Wing Chun Association http://www.thesphere.com/SJWC
Rene Ritchie
David Williams wrote:
>
> clas...@aol.com wrote:
> : I have heard about the bak mei (white eyebrow) school of kung fu and that
> : it is a great style. It appears to be very difficult to find schools (I
> : have only seen two on the net - those in chattanooga, TN and NYC). Anyone
> : know of any other schools out there in bak mei? Also, how does Bak Mei
> : compare to wing chun? I have heard that the Bak Mei and wing chun styles
> : are "natural enemies" because the founder of bak mei developed the style
> : in part keeping in mind the need to protect himself from wing chun
> : stylists who opposed the Ching Dynasty. Anyone know more? Thanks
>
> No your posting of them being "natural enemies" is the first I've
> heard of this story. Sounds fishy to me.
>
> There was/is no animosity between the two styles.
Sounds like another fairy-tale taken as fact from "10 000 Years Green".
rgds,
--
Rene Ritchie
mailto:re...@sandtechnology.com mailto:re...@wingchunkuen.com
http://www.sandtechnology.com http://www.wingchunkuen.com
Andrej Magdič
clas...@aol.com je v članku <8727373...@dejanews.com> napisal ...
> I have heard about the bak mei (white eyebrow) school of kung fu and that
> it is a great style. It appears to be very difficult to find schools (I
> have only seen two on the net - those in chattanooga, TN and NYC). Anyone
> know of any other schools out there in bak mei? Also, how does Bak Mei
> compare to wing chun? I have heard that the Bak Mei and wing chun styles
> are "natural enemies" because the founder of bak mei developed the style
> in part keeping in mind the need to protect himself from wing chun
> stylists who opposed the Ching Dynasty. Anyone know more? Thanks
>
>
I heard a different story.
A Shaolin monk named Pak Mei (White Eyebrow) killed 4 brother monks to test
the effectiveness of hisnwe art. Consequently, his style was forbidden to
be taught in the temple and he was sent into exile with the founder of
white tiger.
Stan Olson
Stan:
Westerner say : no such thing as Bad publicity ... :)
The line between notoriety and notorious, is thinner
than we wish, then as now ...
Rene Ritchie
Hi,
Andrej Magdič wrote:
> I heard a different story.
> A Shaolin monk named Pak Mei (White Eyebrow) killed 4 brother monks to test
> the effectiveness of hisnwe art. Consequently, his style was forbidden to
> be taught in the temple and he was sent into exile with the founder of
> white tiger.
This is a fairy tale, which has apparently greatly tarnished the
reputation of Bak Mei and its practitioners. As far as I've heard, its
not at all based on historical fact.
mstrange
In article <5u6u6m$fnu$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, David Williams <wing...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>clas...@aol.com wrote:
>: I have heard about the bak mei (white eyebrow) school of kung fu and that
>: it is a great style. It appears to be very difficult to find schools (I
>: have only seen two on the net - those in chattanooga, TN and NYC). Anyone
>: know of any other schools out there in bak mei? Also, how does Bak Mei
>: compare to wing chun? I have heard that the Bak Mei and wing chun styles
>: are "natural enemies" because the founder of bak mei developed the style
>: in part keeping in mind the need to protect himself from wing chun
>: stylists who opposed the Ching Dynasty. Anyone know more? Thanks
>
>No your posting of them being "natural enemies" is the first I've
>heard of this story. Sounds fishy to me.
>
>There was/is no animosity between the two styles.
I believe it revolves arround Leung Sheung. I was always told that he was a
former Bei Mei master, who converted to Wing Chun when Yip Man defeated him.
Bei Mei (Pak Mei, or Ngor Mei) is an internal tiger system. It incorporates
the five animals of southern Shaolin. It is an aggresive system, powerful
southern "internal" explosive strikes. (in fact, according to legend, it was
with a technique called catapulting that the Monk Bei Mei killed the head
abbot of the Shaolin temple before the Manchu's attacked.)
I know that the Bei Mei master here in Chattanooga has a strong dislike for
Wing Chun. (I made the mistake of mentioning a desire to learn WC and was
told how it was bad, the people practicing it were killing themselves, etc.)
This leads me to believe some of the animosity stories over WC and BM.
Except for surface evaluations, I can in no way talk about Bak Mei. I was not
with them long enough to even be considered a poor student. It was pretty
cool, but I never got into the real system very deeply, being a "beggar"
system student when I was there.
The style was invented prior to WC, as the monk Bei Mei already was practicing
when the temple was burned, and legend says that Ng Mui invented WC later.
Hope that helps, or makes for good laugh.
Michael
Rene Ritchie
Hi Michael,
mstrange wrote:
> I believe it revolves arround Leung Sheung. I was always told that he was a
> former Bei Mei master, who converted to Wing Chun when Yip Man defeated him.
Leung Sheung also reportedly knew Lung Ying Mor Kiu (Dragon), Choy Lai
Fut, and Weng Chun (Always Spring). I believe he was teaching Choy Lai
Fut when Yip Man and he crossed arms.
> Bei Mei (Pak Mei, or Ngor Mei)
Ngor Mei = Emei, a mountain in Sichuan where Bak Mei was supposed to
have gone and taught Shaolin, first called Emei Shaolin (Ngo Mei Siu
Lam) and later Bak Mei. Other stories say he was from Emei and learned
Yuegaquan which he later created Bak Mei (Baimeiquan) from.
> is an internal tiger system.
Whatever internal means ;)
> It incorporates
> the five animals of southern Shaolin. It is an aggresive system, powerful
> southern "internal" explosive strikes. (in fact, according to legend, it was
> with a technique called catapulting that the Monk Bei Mei killed the head
> abbot of the Shaolin temple before the Manchu's attacked.)
I think in legend he broke Jee Shim Sim See's head with his belly. This
is just a fairy tale, tho.
> I know that the Bei Mei master here in Chattanooga has a strong dislike for
> Wing Chun. (I made the mistake of mentioning a desire to learn WC and was
> told how it was bad, the people practicing it were killing themselves, etc.)
And many people think the sink/raise/spit/swallow Bak Mei posture is
also bad. Heck, we're all dying anyway 8)
> This leads me to believe some of the animosity stories over WC and BM.
Nothing historical to this, however.
> Except for surface evaluations, I can in no way talk about Bak Mei. I was not
> with them long enough to even be considered a poor student. It was pretty
> cool, but I never got into the real system very deeply, being a "beggar"
> system student when I was there.
>
> The style was invented prior to WC, as the monk Bei Mei already was practicing
> when the temple was burned, and legend says that Ng Mui invented WC later.
The above is also legend. We can trace Wing Chun back to the Hung Suen
of the mid 1800s and Bak Mei back to Cheung Lai Chuen around the turn of
the century. Everything else is still shrouded in legend, I think.
mstrange
In article <3412E7...@NOSPAMwingchunkuen.com>, Rene Ritchie <re...@NOSPAMwingchunkuen.com> wrote:
>Hi Michael,
Hello. :)
>Leung Sheung also reportedly knew Lung Ying Mor Kiu (Dragon), Choy Lai
>Fut, and Weng Chun (Always Spring). I believe he was teaching Choy Lai
>Fut when Yip Man and he crossed arms.
That was the one instance of conflict that I was aware of where a Bei Mei
practitioner and a WC guy crossed hands.
>> is an internal tiger system.
>Whatever internal means ;)
Exactly.
>> southern "internal" explosive strikes. (in fact, according to legend, it was
>> with a technique called catapulting that the Monk Bei Mei killed the head
>> abbot of the Shaolin temple before the Manchu's attacked.)
>I think in legend he broke Jee Shim Sim See's head with his belly. This
>is just a fairy tale, tho.
Most likely. The catapulting story comes from the Bei Mei sifu here in town.
I do not know about the other version. (exept from my Hung Gar days, when they
pretty much hold that Bei Mei is the black angel of death. ;-) )
>> This leads me to believe some of the animosity stories over WC and BM.
>
>Nothing historical to this, however.
Or at least is is one sided, or possible just a matter of ego "I am better
than you".
>> The style was invented prior to WC, as the monk Bei Mei already was
> practicing
>> when the temple was burned, and legend says that Ng Mui invented WC later.
>
>The above is also legend. We can trace Wing Chun back to the Hung Suen
>of the mid 1800s and Bak Mei back to Cheung Lai Chuen around the turn of
>the century. Everything else is still shrouded in legend, I think.
Yep. In fact I have heard a version where Ng Mui, Mui Hin, etc. all got
together to create Fu Hok, to defeat Bei Mei. Never heard that one before.
Pretty cool idea though. Incorporate all of the historic figures into your
lineage.
Ciao.
Michael
God, son of god Homo causey truth
On Sun, 07 Sep 1997 21:47:47 GMT, mstr...@voy.net (mstrange) wrote:
>
>Most likely. The catapulting story comes from the Bei Mei sifu here in town.
>I do not know about the other version. (exept from my Hung Gar days, when they
>pretty much hold that Bei Mei is the black angel of death. ;-) )
Whats wrong with killing?
>>> This leads me to believe some of the animosity stories over WC and BM.
>>
>>Nothing historical to this, however.
>
>Or at least is is one sided, or possible just a matter of ego "I am better
>than you".
>
>
>>> The style was invented prior to WC, as the monk Bei Mei already was
>> practicing
>>> when the temple was burned, and legend says that Ng Mui invented WC later.
>>
>>The above is also legend. We can trace Wing Chun back to the Hung Suen
>>of the mid 1800s and Bak Mei back to Cheung Lai Chuen around the turn of
>>the century. Everything else is still shrouded in legend, I think.
>
>Yep. In fact I have heard a version where Ng Mui, Mui Hin, etc. all got
>together to create Fu Hok, to defeat Bei Mei. Never heard that one before.
>Pretty cool idea though. Incorporate all of the historic figures into your
>lineage.
>
>Ciao.
>
>Michael
I like the new information that eddie chong has to contribute to the legends/history.
-----Its not arrogance when your always right------
ftp://ftp.wavefront.com/pub/techint/spook/crimeftr.zip
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"A free man is one that exists for his own sake, while the slave, as such,
exists for the sake of another."
--Thomas Aquinas
Rene Ritchie
Hi,
??? wrote:
> I like the new information that eddie chong has to contribute to the legends/history.
Chong sifu did a great service bringing Pan Nam sifu's accounts to the
western world. The stories about Yat Chum Um Jee and Cheung "Tan Sao" Ng
provide a new perspective on Wing Chun development. Its too bad his IKF
article got a bit muddled. The Chinese material on the Pan Nam history
is very interesting.
Rene Ritchie
Hi,
mstrange wrote:
> Most likely. The catapulting story comes from the Bei Mei sifu here in town.
> I do not know about the other version. (exept from my Hung Gar days, when they
> pretty much hold that Bei Mei is the black angel of death. ;-) )
I think that comes from the pulp fiction novels of the Qing dynasty like
"10 000 Years Green" where Bak Mei turns on and kills several other of
the elders. This has given an unwarrented stigma to many Bak Mei
stylists throughout the years, I imagine. Its too bad people take these
stories as factual. Sort of like taking the mini-series "North & South"
as factual.
> Or at least is is one sided, or possible just a matter of ego "I am better
> than you".
There's always that. You can find a lot of Wing Chun/Choy Lai Fut
rivalry historically, however, whereas with Bak Mei is doesn't seem so.
> >The above is also legend. We can trace Wing Chun back to the Hung Suen
> >of the mid 1800s and Bak Mei back to Cheung Lai Chuen around the turn of
> >the century. Everything else is still shrouded in legend, I think.
>
> Yep. In fact I have heard a version where Ng Mui, Mui Hin, etc. all got
> together to create Fu Hok, to defeat Bei Mei. Never heard that one before.
> Pretty cool idea though. Incorporate all of the historic figures into your
> lineage.
Oh, they love it. Five Elders were quasi-demi-godal folk heroes who,
like Shaolin, were linked into almost every southern system in one way
or another. Great marketing (to stir up the anti-Qing factions or
recruit students), great romance, instant credibility. Unfortunately,
its done a lot to obscure the actual histories of many arts.
Rene Ritchie
Hi,
God, son of god Homo causey truth wrote:
> The homepages seem to have a mind of thier own.
Seems like. I think Chong sifu may be concentrating on Bak Mei more
these days in any event.
> It would be interesting to find out how many styles were represented at the opera.
That we know of, the relevent ones were:
Northern Opera & Shaolinquan from Cheung Ng (Zhang Wu)
Fujian Weng Chun Kuen (Always Spring Boxing) from "Jee Shim"
Hybrid Fujian "Wing Chun" (Praise Spring) from "Leung Bok-Lao"
> I have some info
> to contribute pertaining to the pole form but I need to do more research.
What info? The pole form is probably the easiest part of Wing Chun to
trace. Fujian Weng Chun -> Hung Suen Wing Chun.
God, son of god Homo causey truth
On Mon, 08 Sep 1997 11:45:42 -0500, Rene Ritchie <re...@NOSPAMwingchunkuen.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>??? wrote:
>
>> I like the new information that eddie chong has to contribute to the legends/history.
>
>Chong sifu did a great service bringing Pan Nam sifu's accounts to the
>western world. The stories about Yat Chum Um Jee and Cheung "Tan Sao" Ng
>provide a new perspective on Wing Chun development. Its too bad his IKF
>article got a bit muddled. The Chinese material on the Pan Nam history
>is very interesting.
The homepages seem to have a mind of thier own.
It would be interesting to find out how many styles were represented at the opera. I have some info
to contribute pertaining to the pole form but I need to do more research.
-----Its not arrogance when your always right------
God, son of god Homo causey truth
On Mon, 08 Sep 1997 23:08:26 -0400, Rene Ritchie <re...@NOSPAMwingchunkuen.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>God, son of god Homo causey truth wrote:
>
>> The homepages seem to have a mind of thier own.
>
>Seems like. I think Chong sifu may be concentrating on Bak Mei more
>these days in any event.
>
>> It would be interesting to find out how many styles were represented at the opera.
>
>That we know of, the relevent ones were:
>
>Northern Opera & Shaolinquan from Cheung Ng (Zhang Wu)
>Fujian Weng Chun Kuen (Always Spring Boxing) from "Jee Shim"
>Hybrid Fujian "Wing Chun" (Praise Spring) from "Leung Bok-Lao"
>
>> I have some info
>> to contribute pertaining to the pole form but I need to do more research.
>
>What info? The pole form is probably the easiest part of Wing Chun to
>trace. Fujian Weng Chun -> Hung Suen Wing Chun.
I messed up. Correction: Not the pole form. The sticky poles techniques.
I have to dig up my notes.
-----Its not arrogance when your always right------
ftp://ftp.wavefront.com/pub/techint/spook/crimeftr.zip
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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from aquiring valor and high spirit in order that they may not want to cast
off their inquitous domination."
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God, son of god Homo causey truth
On Mon, 08 Sep 1997 23:08:26 -0400, Rene Ritchie <re...@NOSPAMwingchunkuen.com> wrote:
>What info? The pole form is probably the easiest part of Wing Chun to
>trace. Fujian Weng Chun -> Hung Suen Wing Chun.
>
Concernining the sticky pole techniques:
Chen family 2 man sticky spear: Sa-Quang Daiza Fa
Tang ho discovered the "Negative talisman spear axioms" manuscript in 1795.
"Stick and follow"
Yang "peerless yang" lu-chang was said to be skilled with spear and could uproot oppenents.
Rene Ritchie
God, son of god Homo causey truth wrote:
>
>
> >
> >God, son of god Homo causey truth wrote:
> >
> >> The homepages seem to have a mind of thier own.
> >
> >Seems like. I think Chong sifu may be concentrating on Bak Mei more
> >these days in any event.
> >
> >> It would be interesting to find out how many styles were represented at the opera.
> >
> >That we know of, the relevent ones were:
> >
> >Northern Opera & Shaolinquan from Cheung Ng (Zhang Wu)
> >Fujian Weng Chun Kuen (Always Spring Boxing) from "Jee Shim"
> >Hybrid Fujian "Wing Chun" (Praise Spring) from "Leung Bok-Lao"
> >
> >> I have some info
> >> to contribute pertaining to the pole form but I need to do more research.
> >
> >trace. Fujian Weng Chun -> Hung Suen Wing Chun.
>
No worries. I think pole sticking would also be fairly simple. The pole
doesn't play, it finishes, or clears and finishes. Sticking pole is
probably just the attempt to integrate sticking hands concepts to the
pole. There are legends which speak to this (Wong Wah-Bo modifying the
Siu Lam Luk Dim Boon Gwun according to WCK methods).