Wu Tu Nan and the Yangs
Mark S Goldberg
place in Yang style history.
It seems in my reading, that he was a well skilled top student of the
second of YLC's sons, and should have by virtue of his skill been a lineage
holder as he seems ( I'm supposing here) that to have greater skill than
YCF.
So what was his skill level ( a difficult question, humor me), why wasn't
he recognized as a lineage holder and developer of Yang style taiji in his
own right, as he apparently wasn't what did he do on his own martial wise
besides live to a ripe old age of 105.
I did read in Smith's book that he cleaned CMC's clock in a bout but I've
forgotten other accounts which described that and other bouts.
Mark 'gee, it's not in encarta' Goldberg
D.E.J.A.
Mark S Goldberg wrote in message <383C49E2...@monmouth.com>...
> I did read in Smith's book that he cleaned CMC's clock in a bout but I've
>forgotten other accounts which described that and other bouts.
> Mark 'gee, it's not in encarta' Goldberg
What book of Smith's?
Usually you cite references.
Mark S Goldberg
"D.E.J.A." wrote:
Which was why I was asking the questions: I remember reading in Smith's
chinese masters and methods about a friendly match with one Tu Hsin-Wu which
CMC lost but I can't remember where I read that one about Wu Tu Nan- I thought
it was Smith's but I don't remember.
Anyway- Wu seems to have been quite skilled; perhaps others will offer up
some information.
Mark
Christopher Williams
Wu Tunan practiced Wu style tai chi ( not named after him ) from Wu
Jianquan, the son of the founder of the Wu style, and four years under Yang
Shaohou. He lived to be over 98 years old, and was still practicing at that
age.
cw
Mark S Goldberg
Christopher Williams wrote:
I think he lived to 104 or 5, died in 1989 I believe. I have a video with him
and some other old timers giving some tips to Jet Li, which I'm guessing was
shot in china around 1979 or so. Back to the historical issues- I thought he
was a student of Yang Shao hou for like 10-15 yrs?? Am I wrong?
Was he not a highly skilled Yang stylist- a trained fighter who was by the
1920's certainly superior to YCF in skill and who developed long after YCF
grew fat, lazy ( YCF besides this might have had cancer or some serious
chronic ailment that killed him at 51) he was healthy, strong, a scholarly,
solitary sort who had the martial skills and temperment to perhaps keep
developing.
That's where I surmised that he was a true Yang stylist representative
worthy of a lineage title etc.
I realize that I might be more than incorrect in my history and
understanding based on that incorrect series of assumptions, so don't anybody
get nervous here- I'm just wondering.
Mark' wasn't in britannica either'Goldberg
Christopher Williams
>was a student of Yang Shao hou for like 10-15 yrs?? Am I wrong?
Yes.
In an interview with Zeng Weiqi published in China Daily, Nov 11, 1981
issue, Wu Tunan, vice chairman of the Beijing Wushu Association, stated
that he had Wu Jianquan as a teacher for eight years, and Yang Shaohou for
four years.
> Was he not a highly skilled Yang stylist- a trained fighter who was by
the
>1920's certainly superior to YCF in skill and who developed long after YCF
>grew fat, lazy ( YCF besides this might have had cancer or some serious
>chronic ailment that killed him at 51) he was healthy, strong, a scholarly,
>solitary sort who had the martial skills and temperment to perhaps keep
>developing.
You have to realize that back in the 1800'sand early part of the 1900's
people didn't consider themselves Wu stylists or Yang stylists, that's
primarily a Western convention that we have invented for convenience and to
start arguements over. If you followed the principles of tai chi in your
form, you were considered a Wudang stylist, which included all family
variants.
>
> That's where I surmised that he was a true Yang stylist representative
>worthy of a lineage title etc.
Lineage title is an interesting concept, mostly created to make money off of
gullible Westerners who don't know what a lineage title is...
> I realize that I might be more than incorrect in my history and
>understanding based on that incorrect series of assumptions, so don't
anybody
>get nervous here- I'm just wondering.
Hope more of a response helps.
cw
Mark S Goldberg
Christopher Williams wrote:
> Lineage title is an interesting concept, mostly created to make money off of
>
> gullible Westerners who don't know what a lineage title is...
>
> cw
What struck me was that here was this very skilled internalist( yang or wu)
who lived a long productive life. As a fighter, as an internalist, was he the
highly skilled one who others sought to emulate; to study from; was he involved
in challenge matches that placed him in a position at the top of those who were
considered top stylists?
I don't particularly know what to make of the various'kings' of the art.
What I would like to know is something about those who are deferred to as being
at the top and what history told us as to what they practiced and who they
trained, how well there students performed etc.
It gets muddier I realize but I didn't really want to get in a pissing
contest about titles, just that it seemed that he was ( again, to my perhaps
incorrect remembrance of history) perhaps highly skilled, well trained, a
gifted fighter.
Now- where do I correct my impressions here.
Mark' concepts aside'Goldberg
Mark S Goldberg
>
>
> ...You have to realize that back in the 1800'sand early part of the 1900's
> people didn't consider themselves Wu stylists or Yang stylists, that's
> primarily a Western convention that we have invented for convenience and to
> start arguements over. If you followed the principles of tai chi in your
> form, you were considered a Wudang stylist, which included all family
> variants.
>
> cw
What I wanted to clarify for myself was given the political climate, was he
worthy of note with his internal skills. Was he a gifted fighter.
To say as you do'if you followed the principle in your form you were
considered a wudang stylist'is to beg the question:
wu or yang- was he at the top; amongst the top or do we all get to play
denial games and cavil.
Mark'deceived westerner'Goldberg
Christopher Williams
Mark S Goldberg wrote in message
>
>worthy of note with his internal skills. Was he a gifted fighter.
He was the vice chairman of the Beijing Wushu Association. To have that
title after the Cultural Revolution meant that , yes you had to be good, and
your reputation could transcend the rapidly changing political see-saw of
the times. And yes, they accepted challenges, though I doubt anyone fought
him when he was in his nineties...
> To say as you do'if you followed the principle in your form you were
>considered a wudang stylist'is to beg the question: wu or yang- was he at
the top; amongst the top or do we all get to play
>denial games and cavil.
sorry, I guess the history thing got beyond you. Why yes, he was considered
among the top. I thought you had figured it out by the inference.
Let me repeat, he was considered very good, among the top stylists of his
time.
cw
Mike Sigman
Christopher Williams wrote in message <81if88$39i$1...@news.sasquatch.com>...
>
>Wu Tunan practiced Wu style tai chi ( not named after him ) from Wu
>Jianquan, the son of the founder of the Wu style, and four years under Yang
>Shaohou. He lived to be over 98 years old, and was still practicing at that
>age.
Wu Tu Nan was never known for great Taiji skill. He was mainly "famous" in
his later years due to his claims for Taiji helping him live so long.
Unfortunately, Wu's dying at "104 years of age" is laughed at in many
circles because too many people are aware that when he came back from the
provinces (he and other TCC teachers were sent to areas where they had no
teachers) he had gained 20 years of age. It seems that he was really only
in his eighties when he died.
Wu was also a communist official, a point people tend to overlook. I know
teachers who have studies and known Wu who think that Wu was not a very
truthful person (email me if you're in the states and want to go meet some
of them). The meeting between Wu and Chen Fa Ke basically boiled down to
Wu telling everyone at the meeting that "Tai Chi Chuan" was going to be
defined by the 13 postures (peng, lu, ji, an, tsai, lieh, jou, kao, look
left, look right, step forward, step back, central equilibrium). Chen Fa
Ke told Wu that if this was the definition of Taiji then Chen Fa Ke didn't
do Taiji.
What Chen Fa Ke didn't say was that the "13 Postures" is plagued by the fact
that Yang Lu Chan apparently forgot (or deliberately hid) the original
saying (remember, YLC was illiterate and there were too many things to do
other than memorize poems and sayings). The original saying is "peng lu ji
an tsai lieh jou kao teng shan zhe kong huo". So basically Chen Fa Ke
was having Wu Tu Nan on about the saying. :^)
Wu Tu Nan was also quick to point out that Chen style couldn't be Taiji
because they do Pao Chui (there are a few forms with this name, BTW). It
seems that Wu is made to look silly by the recent revelation that the Yang f
amily secretly practiced Pao Chui themselves and wouldn't show non-family
members.
Mike Sigman
Mark S Goldberg
Mike Sigman wrote:
>
>
> Wu Tu Nan was never known for great Taiji skill. He was mainly "famous" in
> his later years due to his claims for Taiji helping him live so long.
> Unfortunately, Wu's dying at "104 years of age" is laughed at in many
> circles because too many people are aware that when he came back from the
> provinces (he and other TCC teachers were sent to areas where they had no
> teachers) he had gained 20 years of age. It seems that he was really only
> in his eighties when he died.
Hmm...so I've been suckered by tai-chi again?? I'm getting to be something
of an expert at getting hit by that technique:)))
Theres another reason to be suspicious about the glorious health benefits as
a raison de tre for tai-chi practice. You get to live long but you have to
tell blown up tales about it or you can't be in the club.
>
> ...What Chen Fa Ke didn't say was that the "13 Postures" is plagued by the
> fact
> that Yang Lu Chan apparently forgot (or deliberately hid) the original
> saying (remember, YLC was illiterate and there were too many things to do
> other than memorize poems and sayings). ... original saying is "peng lu ji
> an tsai lieh jou kao teng shan zhe kong huo". So basically Chen Fa Ke
> was having Wu Tu Nan on about the saying. :^)
>
> Wu Tu Nan was also quick to point out that Chen style couldn't be Taiji
> because they do Pao Chui (there are a few forms with this name, BTW). It
> seems that Wu is made to look silly by the recent revelation that the Yang f
> amily secretly practiced Pao Chui themselves and wouldn't show non-family
> members.
>
> Mike Sigman
Well...that about raps my question up. I did read the tai-chi magazine
article on Nan and it was the usual here's the master gloss ala tai-chi
mag...now I now why.
Thanks
Mark'curses, fooled again'Goldberg