Katana hand positions
Keith Wood
there one way which is seen as proper?
I have looked at several books (at the local Barnes & Noble) - and
have seen a number of different positions.
Most books show an inch or so of the Tsuka (hilt) below the left hand,
and a couple of inches between the two hands. Adrian Paul of
Highlander (the TV show) has his left hand actually touching his
right. (Not that art is supposed to exactly imitate life or
anything...)
Finally, I have a book by Dave Lowry entitled "Bokken - Art of the
Japanese Sword" - and in it he states "there is only one proper way to
hold the bokken" - and that (concerning the left hand) "it is
important that the little finger not actually be wrapped around the
weapon itself, but curled tightly beneath it. The left thumb should
be wrapped around the ring finger." Notwithstanding, his photo
illustration of this point shows the left thumb wrapped around the
index finger... Is this written description of positioning for the
(obviously wooden) Bokken true as well for the Katana???
Anyway, at this very early stage of my Katana education, I can easily
learn either method - but I'd prefer to be traditional...
Thanks!
Keith
PS: I also wanted to know if there are any Kata in which both the
Katana and the Wakizashi are used simultaneously...
Christopher Lau
: Is the way one holds a Katana a matter of personal preference - or is
: there one way which is seen as proper?
: I have looked at several books (at the local Barnes & Noble) - and
: have seen a number of different positions.
: Most books show an inch or so of the Tsuka (hilt) below the left hand,
: and a couple of inches between the two hands. Adrian Paul of
: Highlander (the TV show) has his left hand actually touching his
: right. (Not that art is supposed to exactly imitate life or
: anything...)
Holding the sword with hands touching is absolutely *wrong* unless your
hilt happens to be too short. The correct way to hold the sword is
with as much space as possible between your hands. Some schools
(in particular those descended from Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu)
advocate the little finger off the bottom of the hilt, but other
styles advocate the little finger either on or slightly above the
kashira (butt cap), but all are in agreement that hands should be apart.
As for Highlander, before Adrian Paul had any Japanese sword training,
he consistently holds the sword incorrectly. He has since had some
training and usually starts out holding the sword correctly now, but
always slips back into an incorrect grip at least once per episode..
I guess bad habits really do die hard.. Also, none of the sword
fights are in any way realistic- it's all Hollywood Ryu TV-do, meant
to look good on camera, but is all but unusable for real fights
because of all the Mack truck-sized holes left in their defense..
: Finally, I have a book by Dave Lowry entitled "Bokken - Art of the
: Japanese Sword" - and in it he states "there is only one proper way to
: hold the bokken" - and that (concerning the left hand) "it is
: important that the little finger not actually be wrapped around the
: weapon itself, but curled tightly beneath it. The left thumb should
: be wrapped around the ring finger." Notwithstanding, his photo
: illustration of this point shows the left thumb wrapped around the
: index finger... Is this written description of positioning for the
: (obviously wooden) Bokken true as well for the Katana???
As I've said, some schools advocate little finger off the bottom of
the hilt, others advocate finger on the hilt. Reasoning for where the
little finger goes varies- Katori Shinto Ryu people claim that the
extra 1/2" gives you more leverage, and also happens to put your
bottom hand in a position where it can easily cup the bottom of the
hilt for a thrusting attack. Other Ryu claim that the finger on the
hilt gives a more secure grip because you normally grip with the
bottom fingers of that hand, some further suggest gripping such that
the little finger goes above the knot on the kashira to prevent the
cap from loosening or the cords from unraveling.. While all these
explanations have merit, it's unlikely that in a real fight that an
extra 1/2" either way is going to make much of a difference- the most
important feature is that the hands are spread apart as far as the
hilt allows- this allows the most leverage and control possible. If
you try a cut with a sword both ways, hands apart and hands together,
you'll note that while hands apart may feel a bit awkward at first,
you have a lot more control over the blade (you use your arms and upper
body for the cut- correct), whereas with hands together, the sword will
move faster, but it will just flop all over the place (using your
wrists- incorrect)..
As for thumb position, none of my instructors have mentioned anything
nor have they commented when inspecting my grip- I've always put my
thumb where it felt most comfortable and the grip felt most secure-
for me, that's between the index and middle fingers.
: Anyway, at this very early stage of my Katana education, I can easily
: learn either method - but I'd prefer to be traditional...
It's more important to be *correct* than traditional.. Tradition is
good, but you learn more when you know *why* you should be doing something
rather than just because your instructor did it that way and his
instructor before did it that way.. ad nauseum, ad infinitum..
: Thanks!
: Keith
: PS: I also wanted to know if there are any Kata in which both the
: Katana and the Wakizashi are used simultaneously...
--
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Mr. Unix | This article contains my own opinions, not BNR's.
-- | Bring back Trudeau!
cc...@bnr.ca | (613)-763-8392
Neal Nelson
>Is the way one holds a Katana a matter of personal preference - or is
>there one way which is seen as proper?
>
>I have looked at several books (at the local Barnes & Noble) - and
>have seen a number of different positions.
>
>Most books show an inch or so of the Tsuka (hilt) below the left hand,
>and a couple of inches between the two hands. Adrian Paul of
>Highlander (the TV show) has his left hand actually touching his
>right. (Not that art is supposed to exactly imitate life or
>anything...)
>
>Japanese Sword" - and in it he states "there is only one proper way to
>hold the bokken" - and that (concerning the left hand) "it is
>important that the little finger not actually be wrapped around the
>weapon itself, but curled tightly beneath it. The left thumb should
>be wrapped around the ring finger." Notwithstanding, his photo
>illustration of this point shows the left thumb wrapped around the
>index finger... Is this written description of positioning for the
>(obviously wooden) Bokken true as well for the Katana???
>
>learn either method - but I'd prefer to be traditional...
There are a few different ways of holding a katana, depending on what
school you follow. The way I have been taught it is to have the left
hand as close to the botton of the hilt as possible without the little
finger going off the end. The reason for this is that you are able to
strike with the hilt when in close.
The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, I believe, advocates the style
where the litte finger goes off the end of the hilt. I'm not sure why
this is. Maybe it is to gain as much leverage as possible.
Please don't look to the Highlander TV series to get hints on
swordsmansip as the sword work is awful and makes me cringe whenever
I see it. If the hands are held too close together there can be no
leverage, which forms the basis of cutting with the katana.
As for thumbs being wrapped over fingers, I have never heard of this
either. I know of two general styles of grip: The first, which is what
I was taught is to grip firmly with the little finger, a little less
with the next and a little less with the next and not at all with the
first finger. This sounds rather strange to the uninitiated but does
provide a very secure but not too tight grip.
The other grip which I have heard of from some friendds who study
a school of Iaijutsu which I can't remember the name, is to hold
firmly with the first finger and successivly less with the others in
turn. This is completely the opposite to the method I was taught and I can
only surmise that it was because the school was probably a later
non-battlefield oriented style, where the flexibility of the grip was
paramount rather than the power and security.
I can't see why you should do anything differently for a bokken than a
katana, as it is just a practice version of it not a weapon in it's own
right. After all, if you had a stick would you rather pretend it was a
sword and limit yourself to sword moves or use proper stick techniques
as you would with a Jo or Hanbo.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Neal Nelson G4PRR nne...@esoc.esa.de
European Space Operations Centre nne...@esoc.bitnet
Darmstadt, Germany C=DE;A=DBP;P=ESA;O=ESOC;S=NELSON;G=NEAL
Bella Kinney
>Is the way one holds a Katana a matter of personal preference - or is
>there one way which is seen as proper?
>
>I have looked at several books (at the local Barnes & Noble) - and
>have seen a number of different positions.
>
>Most books show an inch or so of the Tsuka (hilt) below the left hand,
>and a couple of inches between the two hands. Adrian Paul of
>Highlander (the TV show) has his left hand actually touching his
>right. (Not that art is supposed to exactly imitate life or
>anything...)
Don't take anything that guy on tv does for Waza...
>Finally, I have a book by Dave Lowry entitled "Bokken - Art of the
>Japanese Sword" - and in it he states "there is only one proper way to
>hold the bokken" - and that (concerning the left hand) "it is
>important that the little finger not actually be wrapped around the
>weapon itself, but curled tightly beneath it. The left thumb should
>be wrapped around the ring finger." Notwithstanding, his photo
>illustration of this point shows the left thumb wrapped around the
>index finger... Is this written description of positioning for the
>(obviously wooden) Bokken true as well for the Katana???
>
It's tough to get stuff right from a book. There is only one way to hold
a bokken in Kendo Kata and what you have discribed is not it.. Though
other Ryu might have grips like discribed above ..We were working on the
basics the other day in the dojo, for the benifit of a beginner having
his first lessons in Kamai and ettiquet (as well as for a little review
for those of us with a little more experience), The grip we are taught is
with the left hand gripping the weapon by middle, ring, and pinky and the
pointing finger meeting the thumb not crossing it. The grip should be
firm, so as to allow the Men cut ( vertical cut to the face protector) to
be preformed with the left hand alone, but with the right hand providing
direction to the sword in motion. Bella
>Anyway, at this very early stage of my Katana education, I can easily
>learn either method - but I'd prefer to be traditional...
>
>
>
Donald J. Sherrard
holding the katana, but not much. A good book to read would be The Book
of Five Rings, by Miyamoto Musashi. He gives a fairly detailed
description of holding the sword, if I recall, and since he was one of
Japan's greatest swordsmen, I would trust his opinion. Basically,the
hands should be a little less than a hand's width apart, and the pinky and
ring finger gripping, while the middle and forefinger are loose. Also,
the back of the hand should be in line with the forearm, i.e., the wrist
should not be bent.
Kim A Taylor
: Finally, I have a book by Dave Lowry entitled "Bokken - Art of the
: Japanese Sword" - and in it he states "there is only one proper way to
: hold the bokken" - and that (concerning the left hand) "it is
: important that the little finger not actually be wrapped around the
: weapon itself, but curled tightly beneath it. The left thumb should
: be wrapped around the ring finger." Notwithstanding, his photo
: illustration of this point shows the left thumb wrapped around the
: index finger... Is this written description of positioning for the
: (obviously wooden) Bokken true as well for the Katana???
Well in the words of David himself, that book is about Aikido sword so be
careful applying it to other ken schools. I see a lot of folks have
answered you on this one, here's another viewpoint from Yokoyama sensei
of Kochi city in Japan (a student of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu). He states
that your right hand should be jammed right up close to the tsuba (guard)
and your left hand no more than two fingerwidths below the right. This
puts as much of your hands as possible over the tang of the blade which
is more secure than having the left hand down at the end where you create
extra stress in the handle.
: Anyway, at this very early stage of my Katana education, I can easily
: learn either method - but I'd prefer to be traditional...
Listen to your sensei and do what he tells you to do.
: Thanks!
: Keith
: PS: I also wanted to know if there are any Kata in which both the
: Katana and the Wakizashi are used simultaneously...
Hyo Ho Niten Ichi Ryu
Katori Shinto Ryu
Shindo Muso Ryu "Shinto Ryu" sword
and a couple other schools all contain two sword katas. Both the events
outlined in my sig will contain instruction in two sword katas if you're
that interested.
Kim Taylor
Niten Ichi Ryu
Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu
Shindo Muso Ryu
Whatever else I get talked into
--
============================================================================
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or ext. 6717
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============================================================================
Donny CHAN
cc...@bmers2dd.bnr.ca (Christopher Lau) wrote:
]As for Highlander, before Adrian Paul had any Japanese sword training,
]he consistently holds the sword incorrectly. He has since had some
]training and usually starts out holding the sword correctly now, but
]always slips back into an incorrect grip at least once per episode..
Speaking of on-screen swords, anyone watched the Christopher Lambert
movie _The Hunted_? (I know, dumb question.) In that movie, the old
swordsmith taught Lambert's character to hold the ninjatou with the butt
end of the hilt between the thumb and index finger, instead of the usual
way that swordsmen, Japanese and otherwise, hold their swords. Is this
ninja way of holding the ninjatou historically real, or only exist in
modern ninja stories?
]: PS: I also wanted to know if there are any Kata in which both the
]: Katana and the Wakizashi are used simultaneously...
The legendary Miyamoto Musashi encouraged the Nitou Ryuu of using two
swords, but did he mean two katanas, or one katana and one wakizashi?
Donny CHAN
crs...@inforamp.net (Donny CHAN) wrote:
]In article <4ksfut$9...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>,
] cc...@bmers2dd.bnr.ca (Christopher Lau) wrote:
]]As for Highlander, before Adrian Paul had any Japanese sword training,
]]he consistently holds the sword incorrectly. He has since had some
]]training and usually starts out holding the sword correctly now, but
]]always slips back into an incorrect grip at least once per episode..
]Speaking of on-screen swords, anyone watched the Christopher Lambert
]swordsmith taught Lambert's character to hold the ninjatou with the butt
]end of the hilt between the thumb and index finger, instead of the usual
]way that swordsmen, Japanese and otherwise, hold their swords. Is this
]ninja way of holding the ninjatou historically real, or only exist in
]modern ninja stories?
In case my above question sounded ambiguous: I meant, the ninjas in the
movie held their swords with the blades "under" their fists, while
swordsmen usually hold their swords with the blades "over" their fists.
Is there any advantage with holding the sword in this style, or is it
just tradition, or is it fictional?
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| crs...@inforamp.net (Donny CHAN) |
| University of Toronto Mechanical Engineering 9T3+1 ERTW |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| I don't know if the days of year and a half are too |
| long or too short to admire a person. |
| But I composed this melody with all my love for him. |
| When I completed this melody, I made up my mind. |
| I must confess to him my love. |
| |
| Me, a Warrior of Leda? |
| I flew over the land of Ashanty, to reach to my stolen |
| melody. |
| Let me return to my own world. |
| Ringhum, Yoni, please help me! |
| I shall never let it take the Heart of Leda! |
| |
| - ASAGIRI Yohko, Genmu Senki Leda (1985) |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Neal Nelson
[Snip]
>Speaking of on-screen swords, anyone watched the Christopher Lambert
>movie _The Hunted_? (I know, dumb question.) In that movie, the old
>swordsmith taught Lambert's character to hold the ninjatou with the butt
>end of the hilt between the thumb and index finger, instead of the usual
>way that swordsmen, Japanese and otherwise, hold their swords. Is this
>ninja way of holding the ninjatou historically real, or only exist in
>modern ninja stories?
Ninpo Kenjutsu uses the normal grip for both hands, that is gripped mainly
with the little fingers and then successively less with each finger up
until the first finger isn't gripping at all. This is easily seen
as the first fingers tend to point away from the sword.
A grip using the thumb and first finger wouldn't be too good as if one
was unfortunate enough to have to use a Ninjato, which wasn't at all
common contrary to popular belief. Ninjato techniques tend to have
little cutting in them and more of a sawing action, which needs a good
grip for thrusting.
>The legendary Miyamoto Musashi encouraged the Nitou Ryuu of using two
>swords, but did he mean two katanas, or one katana and one wakizashi?
If two swords were to be used, it would be more practical to
use a Katana and a Wakazashi as two Katana would probably prove
unwieldy. The Katori Shinto Ryu do have two sword techniques and they
do this with such a configuration. This would be what a Samurai would
carry anyway, although it was just as common to carry a Tanto instead
of the Wakazashi.
Hicksc
>> ]: Katana and the Wakizashi are used simultaneously...
>> The legendary Miyamoto Musashi encouraged the Nitou Ryuu of using two
>> swords, but did he mean two katanas, or one katana and one wakizashi?
This group is sometimes read by Kim Taylor, who is one of afew students of
the Niten ichi ryu in North America. The third set of kata in this style
are katana and wakizashi. You might flag him down witha post in
rec.org.sca.
ST
Kim A Taylor
: >> ]: PS: I also wanted to know if there are any Kata in which both the
: ST
Hi Steve
The Hyo Ho Niten Ichi Ryu does indeed use the katana and wakizashi in the
third set (nito seiho) which consists of a whole 5 katas, chudan, jodan,
gedan, hidari waki gamae and migi waki gamae.
There is also one kaewaza to gedan called koyonouchi (the "red leaves cut").
The other two sets are itto seiho (12 kata) and the kodachi seiho (7 kata).
Later headmasters of the school added two sets of nito seiho (5 kata
each) and I've seen a set of bo kata associated with the school although
I have not had the chance to learn anything about it.
The current headmaster is Imai Masayuki.
There will be an interview with my sensei (Haruna Matsuo of Musashi Dojo
in Ohara, Okayama) in the next Journal of Asian Martial Arts which
mentions Niten Ichi Ryu as well as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.
There was also an article on Niten a few issues ago in Furyu if anyone
wants to see about getting a back issue. Just look up their web page for
information.
Kim.
Karl Friday
of the grip, since this is the medium by which sword, mind and body are joined.
In fact the term "te no uchi" (literally, "inside the hand"--in other words, the grip)
is used, by extension, to refer to skill in general: "show me your grip" (te no uchi o
misero) was a common way to challenge a swordsman to spar or duel.
Kendo, and many iaido schools, grip the hilt with both hands placed closely together.
I suspect that this derives from kendo, brought about by the extra-long hilt of the kendo
shinai and the hand/wrist protectors (kote) worn by kendo-ists. The width of the gloves
forces one to spread one's hands out a little, even if the gloves themselves are actually
touching. Moreover, gripping the shinai hilt at its extremes would be awkward, and would
create a considerable descrepancy in elbow extension between the right and left arms
when striking at long range.
Most of the classical schools I have observed--including the Kashima-Shinryu, the
Katori Shintoryu, and at least one version of the Shinkage-ryu, among others--spread
the hands as widely as possible. The right hand grips the hilt just below the tsuba (guard)
while the left is positioned such that the little finger rests half on and half off the blade.
The left hand is considered the critical one. This position is believed ideal for the flow
of energy (ki) into the weapon and maximizes leverage and freedom of rotational
movement for the wrists. It also prevents the hilt from snagging on sleeves or other
parts of clothing.
Karl Friday
Associate Professor
Dept. of History
University of Georgia
Christopher Lau
: In article <4kum7f$b...@sam.inforamp.net>,
: crs...@inforamp.net (Donny CHAN) wrote:
: ]In article <4ksfut$9...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>,
: ] cc...@bmers2dd.bnr.ca (Christopher Lau) wrote:
: ]]he consistently holds the sword incorrectly. He has since had some
: ]]training and usually starts out holding the sword correctly now, but
: ]]always slips back into an incorrect grip at least once per episode..
: ]Speaking of on-screen swords, anyone watched the Christopher Lambert
: ]swordsmith taught Lambert's character to hold the ninjatou with the butt
: ]end of the hilt between the thumb and index finger, instead of the usual
: ]way that swordsmen, Japanese and otherwise, hold their swords. Is this
: ]ninja way of holding the ninjatou historically real, or only exist in
: ]modern ninja stories?
: In case my above question sounded ambiguous: I meant, the ninjas in the
: movie held their swords with the blades "under" their fists, while
: swordsmen usually hold their swords with the blades "over" their fists.
: Is there any advantage with holding the sword in this style, or is it
: just tradition, or is it fictional?
I take it that you're referring to the reverse grip where the top hand
holds the sword such that the little finger is closest to the guard..
In all my iai and kenjutsu training, the only time I've come across the
grip is in the act of resheathing the sword (the examples that come to
mind are the third kata of the old seitei gata, and most iai kata of
the Katori Shinto Ryu- you hold the sword normally but reverse grip to
perform noto), never in actual combat. If you try it, you'd find that
this kind of grip really can't generate much power or control in a cut,
and it's as awkward as hell because your wrist and arm aren't meant to
bend in that direction.... I have a feeling that this grip was created
by Hollywood rather than descended from any martial tradition..
c4
Rob Del Greco
: ]: PS: I also wanted to know if there are any Kata in which both the
: ]: Katana and the Wakizashi are used simultaneously...
: The legendary Miyamoto Musashi encouraged the Nitou Ryuu of using two
: swords, but did he mean two katanas, or one katana and one wakizashi?
Musashi encouraged a katana and wakizashi in A Book of Five Rings. He referred
to them as the long and companion blades.
Robert Del Greco delg...@ios.com
__________|________________________________________
|__________|_______________________________________/
|
There can be only one. http://www.ios.com/~delgreco
Randell Jesup
>>Speaking of on-screen swords, anyone watched the Christopher Lambert
>>movie _The Hunted_? (I know, dumb question.) In that movie, the old
>>swordsmith taught Lambert's character to hold the ninjatou with the butt
>>end of the hilt between the thumb and index finger, instead of the usual
>>way that swordsmen, Japanese and otherwise, hold their swords. Is this
>>ninja way of holding the ninjatou historically real, or only exist in
>>modern ninja stories?
>
>with the little fingers and then successively less with each finger up
>until the first finger isn't gripping at all. This is easily seen
>as the first fingers tend to point away from the sword.
Actually, most (all? probably not quite all) schools of kenjutsu
use that sort of grip, though the forefinger is wrapped around the hilt -
I've never seen a kenjutsuka stick the forefinger out - I've only seen that
in "ninja" movies and on the covers of some ninja books. (I've studied
Itto-Tenshin Ryu Kenjutsu, and have had exposure to iaido and kendo, as
well as being a long-time participant on the iaido/kenjutsu/kendo mailing
list.)
>A grip using the thumb and first finger wouldn't be too good as if one
>was unfortunate enough to have to use a Ninjato, which wasn't at all
>common contrary to popular belief. Ninjato techniques tend to have
>little cutting in them and more of a sawing action, which needs a good
>grip for thrusting.
Kenjutsu is almost entirely cutting, though thrusts are certainly
used.
>>The legendary Miyamoto Musashi encouraged the Nitou Ryuu of using two
>>swords, but did he mean two katanas, or one katana and one wakizashi?
>
>If two swords were to be used, it would be more practical to
>use a Katana and a Wakazashi as two Katana would probably prove
>unwieldy. The Katori Shinto Ryu do have two sword techniques and they
>do this with such a configuration. This would be what a Samurai would
>carry anyway, although it was just as common to carry a Tanto instead
>of the Wakazashi.
The answer is perhaps more like "it depends". Nito Ryu does
use one short and one long, but that doesn't mean that Musashi meant that
in A Book of Five Rings. I'll also note that in one-on-one combat,
the accounts are that he didn't use two blades, though if he had to
fight a bunch of people to get away after a duel he's draw a second
blade. He comments somewhere that the reason to practice with two
blades is so that you can use a blade in either hand, according to need,
or something close to that (it's been a while).
--
Randell Jesup, Scala US R&D, Ex-Commodore-Amiga Engineer class of '94
Randel...@scala.com
#include <std/disclaimer>
Exon food: <offensive words censored by order of the Senate>
Rick Cook
>There are a few different ways of holding a katana, depending on what
>school you follow. The way I have been taught it is to have the left
>hand as close to the botton of the hilt as possible without the little
>finger going off the end. The reason for this is that you are able to
>strike with the hilt when in close.
The schools I am familar with all hold the right hand close to the tsuba
(usually with the forefinger touching and the web of the thumb and
forefinger far enough back that you could fit a small egg into the gap) and
the left hand at the bottom of the hilt. The Araki ryu actually has the
little finger off the end of the hilt and curled behind it, but that's
something that varies from school to school.
What does not vary in any of the schools I am aware of is to get as much
distance as possible between the left and right hands on the grip since
this is an important source of power.
The other thing is that the hands are twisted inward ("like wringing out a
towel" is the usual description) for control and power.
>The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, I believe, advocates the style
>where the litte finger goes off the end of the hilt. I'm not sure why
>this is. Maybe it is to gain as much leverage as possible.
Leverage is part of it. In the Araki Ryu we are taught that this serves as
a backstop when you thrust to get better penetration as well.
>Please don't look to the Highlander TV series to get hints on
>swordsmansip as the sword work is awful and makes me cringe whenever
>I see it. If the hands are held too close together there can be no
>leverage, which forms the basis of cutting with the katana.
I have seen a fair number of schools of iai, both here and in Japan and I
have never _ever_ seen any that hold the sword in the way Paul does. I wish
someone would show him how to hold the blasted thing.
>
>As for thumbs being wrapped over fingers, I have never heard of this
>either. I know of two general styles of grip: The first, which is what
>I was taught is to grip firmly with the little finger, a little less
>with the next and a little less with the next and not at all with the
>first finger. This sounds rather strange to the uninitiated but does
>provide a very secure but not too tight grip.
This is the way I was taught as well. I believe Mushashi mentions this in
"The Book of Five Rings" also.
--RC
Donny CHAN
nne...@esoc.esa.de (Neal Nelson) wrote:
]>Speaking of on-screen swords, anyone watched the Christopher Lambert
]>movie _The Hunted_? (I know, dumb question.) In that movie, the old
]>swordsmith taught Lambert's character to hold the ninjatou with the
]>ninja way of holding the ninjatou historically real, or only exist in
]>modern ninja stories?
]Ninpo Kenjutsu uses the normal grip for both hands, that is gripped
mainly
]with the little fingers and then successively less with each finger up
]until the first finger isn't gripping at all. This is easily seen
]as the first fingers tend to point away from the sword.
*Munch*
]Ninjato techniques tend to have little cutting in them and more of a
]sawing action, which needs a good grip for thrusting.
Entschuldigen Sie. I knew my description was ambiguous as soon as I read
my previous message. What I meant was, in the movie, a ninja holds his
sword with his fingers wrapped around the hilt of his sword, but his
sword points in the direction opposite to the usual way other swordsmen,
Japanese or otherwise, hold their swords. Thus, the ninja's thumb and
first fingers are at the "pummel" end of the sword, rather than under
the square hand-guard (tsuba). My question was: is this reversed way of
holding the ninja sword historically accurate?
W. Johnson
different kenjutsuka the same reasons for the rear hand resting on the
tsuka kashira. First, the leverage for strikes against an armored
opponent is greater than that for an unarmored one, and requires a
greater moment arm between the hands. Secondly, in armor, both the tsuki
and the koto age geri (slicing up thrusting cut against the inside wrist)
require manipulation of the kashira. Tsuki to shinchu is easy in an
unarmored encounter, but in armor, it is a different story. Even small
movements of the head and chin send the blade off on a tangential
trajectory. With a grip on the kashira, control of the kissaki through
the technique is much easier. It is also different for kendo, by the way,
again, control of the kissaki is not important, so long as contact is
made for the point/score. In fact, a lot of people woudl be bummed if teh
shinai *didn't* skip off after contact,OUCH,GAG,COUGH!!! :-)
I wonder if Kim Taylor, or another senior swordsman could comment on
this??
THanks.
Osu,
<)(>Wild BIll the Tuchuk
W. Johnson
I just saw an advertisement for a nito ryu video by John Hamilton. Have
you seen this? Is it a good buy? Also, do you have any tapes in your
inventory about nito ryu?
Thanks
Wild Bill
Julian Frost
> I take it that you're referring to the reverse grip where the top hand
> holds the sword such that the little finger is closest to the guard..
> In all my iai and kenjutsu training, the only time I've come across the
> grip is in the act of resheathing the sword (the examples that come to
> mind are the third kata of the old seitei gata, and most iai kata of
> the Katori Shinto Ryu- you hold the sword normally but reverse grip to
> perform noto), never in actual combat. If you try it, you'd find that
> this kind of grip really can't generate much power or control in a cut,
> and it's as awkward as hell because your wrist and arm aren't meant to
> bend in that direction.... I have a feeling that this grip was created
> by Hollywood rather than descended from any martial tradition..
There are Katas that include this "reverse" grip, as taught by Mitsuzuka
Sensei. The katas use this grip for thrusting to the rear when the saya
is grabbed from behind, and the grip is not changed for the next movement
which is a thrust to the front.
I don't think Shindo Munen Ryu was created by Hollywod! :-)
Julian
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Demon Buddha
>
>I take it that you're referring to the reverse grip where the top hand
>holds the sword such that the little finger is closest to the guard..
I believe this is so.
>If you try it, you'd find that
>this kind of grip really can't generate much power or control in a cut,
>and it's as awkward as hell because your wrist and arm aren't meant to
>bend in that direction....
Actually this can be a very effective way of cutting. Not as powerful
I will admit, but in certain circumstances it works well enough.
>I have a feeling that this grip was created
>by Hollywood rather than descended from any martial tradition..
Uh, actually no. Shidare Yanagi Ryu repertoire incorporates some of these
techniques. I've not seen them anywhere else I will confess.
-Andy V.
--
"I have a high art; I hurt with cruelty those who would damage me."
-Archilocus, 650 BCE
Kim A Taylor
: I take it that you're referring to the reverse grip where the top hand
: holds the sword such that the little finger is closest to the guard..
: In all my iai and kenjutsu training, the only time I've come across the
: grip is in the act of resheathing the sword (the examples that come to
: mind are the third kata of the old seitei gata, and most iai kata of
: the Katori Shinto Ryu- you hold the sword normally but reverse grip to
: perform noto), never in actual combat. If you try it, you'd find that
: this kind of grip really can't generate much power or control in a cut,
: and it's as awkward as hell because your wrist and arm aren't meant to
: bend in that direction.... I have a feeling that this grip was created
: by Hollywood rather than descended from any martial tradition..
The Shindo Munen Ryu as taught by Takeshi Mitsuzuka contains ONE kata
with this grip used on the draw and during the kata, it's called Utsu
Semi, flying cicada (love the names of this ryu). It's pretty flash, I
performed the set for some iaidoka in England a few years ago and when I
came to this one I heard "we'd better have that one again" from somewhere
in the back.
It is a draw from the reversed grip, a stab back, stab forward, back on
the other side, flip the sword into usual position and cut kiri otoshi.
Practical?? It was invented by a real samurai and they wouldn't make up a
kata just for show would they? ;-).
Kim Taylor.
: c4
: --
: Christopher Lau | Nortel Wireless Networks / Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
: Mr. Unix | This article contains my own opinions, not BNR's.
: -- | Bring back Trudeau!
: cc...@bnr.ca | (613)-763-8392
--
Kim A Taylor
: Kendo, and many iaido schools, grip the hilt with both hands placed
closely together. : I suspect that this derives from kendo, brought about
by the extra-long hilt of the kendo : shinai and the hand/wrist protectors
(kote) worn by kendo-ists. The width of the gloves : forces one to spread
one's hands out a little, even if the gloves themselves are actually :
touching. Moreover, gripping the shinai hilt at its extremes would be
awkward, and would : create a considerable descrepancy in elbow extension
between the right and left arms : when striking at long range.
You'll get an argument from the kendo folks here Karl, the grip is left
hand right at the end, little finger half on half off, and the right hand
at the tsuba. Then they tell you to stand square on, straighten both
elbows and strike properly.
Bloody sadists, the sensei all have short left arms I think.
Kim Taylor
: Karl Friday
: Associate Professor
: Dept. of History
: University of Georgia
--
Byron Holz
basic stance of Aikido (sankaku) and the sword grip which I thought would be
worth mentioning. He believes that the hand grip should directly mirror the
way that the feet "grip" the group.
In the stance, both feet can be imagined lying on a straight line bissecting
the person. Each foot is turned outward slightly such that this line runs
from the ball of the foot (beneath the big toe) to the outside of the heel.
Similarly, in the sword grip, the palms are placed on the hilt so that the
top of the hilt traces a line from the ball of the palm beneath the index
finger to the outside of the heel of the palm. In much the same way that a
moderately wide stance provides stability without overextension, the hands
are spaced out so that the entire hilt is utilized, but not so far that any
part of either hand is extending past the hilt where it cannot aid in
movement.
All the fingers remain on the hilt, and aid in moving the blade. I was
pleased to find that this corresponded very closely to my studies of
percussion. The way the hilt lays across the palm is very similar to the
way that a drumstick should be held. A good percussionist stives to use all
of his/her fingers to aid in motion, thus minimizing the stress on the hand
muscles. Many percussionists have developed serious muscule/tendon problems
from strenuous playing while putting too much stress on one part of the
hand over another (letting the pinky float free without doing any work is a
common culprit). Many readers may be wondering at this point what this
has to do with sword work, but it has shown me that grips which leave one or
more of the fingers floating free are probably wasting energy and risking
undue stress on the hand.
-Byron Holz
Swarthmore College Aikikai
Keith Wood (ke...@cognisense.com) wrote:
: Is the way one holds a Katana a matter of personal preference - or is
: there one way which is seen as proper?
: I have looked at several books (at the local Barnes & Noble) - and
: have seen a number of different positions.
: Most books show an inch or so of the Tsuka (hilt) below the left hand,
: and a couple of inches between the two hands. Adrian Paul of
: Highlander (the TV show) has his left hand actually touching his
: right. (Not that art is supposed to exactly imitate life or
: anything...)
: Finally, I have a book by Dave Lowry entitled "Bokken - Art of the
: Japanese Sword" - and in it he states "there is only one proper way to
: hold the bokken" - and that (concerning the left hand) "it is
: important that the little finger not actually be wrapped around the
: weapon itself, but curled tightly beneath it. The left thumb should
: be wrapped around the ring finger." Notwithstanding, his photo
: illustration of this point shows the left thumb wrapped around the
: index finger... Is this written description of positioning for the
: (obviously wooden) Bokken true as well for the Katana???
: Anyway, at this very early stage of my Katana education, I can easily
: learn either method - but I'd prefer to be traditional...
: Thanks!
: Keith
Rick Cook
>I take it that you're referring to the reverse grip where the top hand
>holds the sword such that the little finger is closest to the guard..
>In all my iai and kenjutsu training, the only time I've come across the
>grip is in the act of resheathing the sword (the examples that come to
>mind are the third kata of the old seitei gata, and most iai kata of
>the Katori Shinto Ryu- you hold the sword normally but reverse grip to
>perform noto), never in actual combat.
There are one or two advanced Araki ryu kata that use this kind of grip,
but they deal with drawing and striking with the left hand without shifting
grip. Very unusual and not usually taught until at least nidan.
--RC
Christopher Lau
: Christopher Lau (cc...@bmers2dd.bnr.ca) wrote:
: : I take it that you're referring to the reverse grip where the top hand
: : holds the sword such that the little finger is closest to the guard..
: : In all my iai and kenjutsu training, the only time I've come across the
: : grip is in the act of resheathing the sword (the examples that come to
: : mind are the third kata of the old seitei gata, and most iai kata of
: : the Katori Shinto Ryu- you hold the sword normally but reverse grip to
: : perform noto), never in actual combat. If you try it, you'd find that
: : this kind of grip really can't generate much power or control in a cut,
: : and it's as awkward as hell because your wrist and arm aren't meant to
: : bend in that direction.... I have a feeling that this grip was created
: : by Hollywood rather than descended from any martial tradition..
: The Shindo Munen Ryu as taught by Takeshi Mitsuzuka contains ONE kata
: with this grip used on the draw and during the kata, it's called Utsu
: Semi, flying cicada (love the names of this ryu). It's pretty flash, I
: performed the set for some iaidoka in England a few years ago and when I
: came to this one I heard "we'd better have that one again" from somewhere
: in the back.
: It is a draw from the reversed grip, a stab back, stab forward, back on
: the other side, flip the sword into usual position and cut kiri otoshi.
: Practical?? It was invented by a real samurai and they wouldn't make up a
: kata just for show would they? ;-).
Thanks Kim, (and also Rick, Julian, and anyone else who mentioned this
kata).. I stand corrected then.. However, it looks like it's used only
for stabbing, not cutting (I am correctly interpreting "usual position"
as switching back to a normal forehanded grip am I not??). This grip
might allow you to slash, but your arm is in the wrong position to really
cut with any power, but all these ninja movies seem to show them taking
down all manner of opponents while holding their swords in this manner...
: Kim Taylor.
: --
: ============================================================================
: Kim Taylor Guelph School of Japanese Sword Arts
: kata...@uoguelph.ca July 12 to 21, 1996
: 824-4120 ext. 6225 email: in...@openlrng.uoguelph.ca
: or ext. 6717
: Dept. Animal Science Join iai...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
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: TREVOR JONES. Email kata...@uoguelph.ca for more details
: ============================================================================
c4
Cosmoboy
Heathen Kfr...@uga.cc.uga.edu (Karl Friday) wrote:
>Kendo, and many iaido schools, grip the hilt with both hands placed closely together.
>I suspect that this derives from kendo, brought about by the extra-long hilt of the kendo
>shinai and the hand/wrist protectors (kote) worn by kendo-ists. The width of the gloves
>forces one to spread one's hands out a little, even if the gloves themselves are actually
>touching. Moreover, gripping the shinai hilt at its extremes would be awkward, and would
> create a considerable descrepancy in elbow extension between the right and left arms
>when striking at long range.
Huh? I know for a fact that we don't hold close together - this would
be moronic as you would lose the leverage that is oh so important. I
personally don't feel any awkwardness that comes with an average sized
(39) competition shinai - and I have relatively short arms. As for
the elbow discrepancies, the elbow shouldn't be straight at the end,
anyways,
Such is written, the Word of Truth at the Exalted Temple of the One Most Holy:
Me! Cosmoboy.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
To protest the US government's attempts at censoring the Internet, I am
including the words "fuck you" in all of my letters and articles on the
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Telecommunications Deregulation Act is struck down or repealed.
Please do not be offended at my use of the word "fuck"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Kim A Taylor
: Thanks Kim, (and also Rick, Julian, and anyone else who mentioned this
: kata).. I stand corrected then.. However, it looks like it's used only
: for stabbing, not cutting (I am correctly interpreting "usual position"
: as switching back to a normal forehanded grip am I not??). This grip
: might allow you to slash, but your arm is in the wrong position to really
: cut with any power, but all these ninja movies seem to show them taking
: down all manner of opponents while holding their swords in this manner...
That's right, no cuts just stabs with this grip. I suspect the ninja in
the movies are using some kind of ki power to generate enough strength
with their hands in that position to cut, not to mention overcoming the
disadvantage in reach you created.
Kim "never got beyond technique myself" Taylor
Michael L. Weishaar
>
> My Aikido sensei frequently makes an interesting connection between the
> basic stance of Aikido (sankaku) and the sword grip which I thought would be
> worth mentioning. He believes that the hand grip should directly mirror the
> way that the feet "grip" the group.
>
I have a bad habit of leaving my index finger pointing away instead of
resting on the handle.
One of the better quotes I read, and I can't remember where, was that
you should grip the sword like a baby grips your finger.
-Michael
> -Byron Holz
> Swarthmore College Aikikai
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
raahsieW leahciM | Michael Weishaar
moc.tom.gic@raahsiew :liame | email: weis...@cig.mot.com
raahsiew~\moc.tom.gic.www\\:ptth | http://www.cig.mot.com/~weishaar
Rick Cook
>Thus, the ninja's thumb and
>first fingers are at the "pummel" end of the sword, rather than under
>the square hand-guard (tsuba). My question was: is this reversed way of
>holding the ninja sword historically accurate?
There is such a grip which is sometimes used. There is also what is called
"Merchant's Style", which involves holding the sword like that. It's not
common but it does exist.
--RC
Rick Cook
>
>That's right, no cuts just stabs with this grip. I suspect the ninja in
>the movies are using some kind of ki power to generate enough strength
>with their hands in that position to cut, not to mention overcoming the
>disadvantage in reach you created.
I have seen some slicing cuts with this grip with the sword laid along the
forearm. You can generate a certain amount of power with hip rotation this
way.
Araki ryu doesn't use this cut but be have vestiges of it in some of our
kata, notably the noto in Kaishaku.
--RC
Tommy L. Cadwell
Taylor) writes:
>It is a draw from the reversed grip, a stab back, stab forward, back
on
>the other side, flip the sword into usual position and cut kiri
otoshi.
>
>Practical?? It was invented by a real samurai and they wouldn't make
up a
>kata just for show would they? ;-).
>
>Kim Taylor.
>
>: c4
>: --
>: Christopher Lau | Nortel Wireless Networks / Bell-Northern
Research Ltd.
>: Mr. Unix | This article contains my own opinions, not
BNR's.
>: -- | Bring back Trudeau!
>: cc...@bnr.ca | (613)-763-8392
>
>--
>======================================================================
=====
>Kim Taylor Guelph School of Japanese Sword
Arts
>kata...@uoguelph.ca July 12 to 21, 1996
>824-4120 ext. 6225 email: in...@openlrng.uoguelph.ca
>or ext. 6717
>Dept. Animal Science Join iai...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
>U. of Guelph, Guelph Ontario Send to:
LIST...@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA
>Canada N1G 2W1 Command: SUBSCRIBE IAIDO-L
yourname
>======================================================================
=====
>
>COME VISIT US MAY 18-21, 1996 TO PRACTICE IAIDO AND NITEN ICHI RYU
>KENJUTSU WITH OUR VISITORS FROM JAPAN, MATSUO HARUNA, MASAKAZU OSHITA,
AND
>TREVOR JONES. Email kata...@uoguelph.ca for more details
>
>======================================================================
=====
>
I would argue that this martial arts "paterns" that are tought to
students of a discipline tend to be highly artistic and highly
combat-ineffective. As anyone will tell you (if they fight much that
is), combos requiring more than 3 strikes almost invariably fail
because there is too much opurtunity for an appropriate parry,
counterstrike or even just pure disengagement, and 3-strike combos
often fail as well, but not as often. I know SCA and Melee fighters
(groups that fight with heavier-than-fencing weapons weapons in
free-style form) that are considered mediocre, good or masterful, that
can EASILY take down a kin-do master. This is because the SCA and
Melee people fight blow for blow, whereas the kin-do master tries to do
some elaborate patern. The SCA and Melee people have more REAL
fighting hours, even if they have less "practice" hours. The kin-do
master looks cooler, but also looks dead after 10 or 20 seconds.
Although there are appropriate counters to certain strikes that may
resemble paterns, most sword fighting of any kind is mostly improv, as
I'm sure most fencers and other swordsmen reading this will agree.
Samurai were certainly skilled, but I seriously doubt the ones that
lived a long time used paterns in battle: they fought it strike by
strike. Fencing tends to be the same way to in my experience.
Rob Del Greco
: There are Katas that include this "reverse" grip, as taught by Mitsuzuka
: is grabbed from behind, and the grip is not changed for the next movement
: which is a thrust to the front.
How can you stab to the front with a reverse grip? I'm having trouble
visualizing.
__
\ | \ Robert Del Greco
| | \ Masters Fencing Academy
===========| |---------------------------------------------------
| \ | / delg...@ios.com
| |__/ http://www.ios.com/~delgreco
Daeymion Chiba City Bbs (Rpg/SCA/MA) -Sysop
: >Please don't look to the Highlander TV series to get hints on
: >I see it. If the hands are held too close together there can be no
: >leverage, which forms the basis of cutting with the katana.
:
: I have seen a fair number of schools of iai, both here and in Japan and I
: have never _ever_ seen any that hold the sword in the way Paul does. I wish
: someone would show him how to hold the blasted thing.
Perhaps ;] , Over the course of four centuries paul has found a more
efficent and deadly way of fighting with the katana, perhaps its with all
that Cross-training he did, helps develop the ultimate sword style ;].
(This was a joke.)
-Daeymion
Daeymion Chiba City Bbs (Rpg/SCA/MA) -Sysop
: Kim A Taylor (kata...@uoguelph.ca) wrote:
: : Christopher Lau (cc...@bmers2dd.bnr.ca) wrote:
:
: : : I take it that you're referring to the reverse grip where the top hand
: : : holds the sword such that the little finger is closest to the guard..
: : : In all my iai and kenjutsu training, the only time I've come across the
: : : grip is in the act of resheathing the sword (the examples that come to
: : : mind are the third kata of the old seitei gata, and most iai kata of
: : : the Katori Shinto Ryu- you hold the sword normally but reverse grip to
: : : perform noto), never in actual combat. If you try it, you'd find that
: : : this kind of grip really can't generate much power or control in a cut,
: : : and it's as awkward as hell because your wrist and arm aren't meant to
: : : bend in that direction.... I have a feeling that this grip was created
: : : by Hollywood rather than descended from any martial tradition..
:
: : The Shindo Munen Ryu as taught by Takeshi Mitsuzuka contains ONE kata
: : with this grip used on the draw and during the kata, it's called Utsu
: : Semi, flying cicada (love the names of this ryu). It's pretty flash, I
: : performed the set for some iaidoka in England a few years ago and when I
: : came to this one I heard "we'd better have that one again" from somewhere
: : in the back.
:
:
: : Practical?? It was invented by a real samurai and they wouldn't make up a
: : kata just for show would they? ;-).
: kata).. I stand corrected then.. However, it looks like it's used only
: for stabbing, not cutting (I am correctly interpreting "usual position"
: as switching back to a normal forehanded grip am I not??). This grip
: might allow you to slash, but your arm is in the wrong position to really
: cut with any power, but all these ninja movies seem to show them taking
: down all manner of opponents while holding their swords in this manner...
:
When used with the reverse grip, it is held against the arm and
slightly behind the back to be used "properly". The great power in it
comes from the arcing motion of the blade combined with the distance.
mainly it is used against overly agressive opponents, So that as they
come forward, The blade comes across them nicely as you "sidestep" or
Move backwards,(I have used it in Sparring with bokken, but as of yet i
have never used it in a sword fight ;], and it can be done with enough
force to knock a person moving forward wearing armour to "Fly" backward
onto their arse. )
Another combination would be Swing the blade forward and slightly parry
the opponents blade and while the opponent is coming forward The blade
will then be pointed straight at him in which case a thrust would hurt
quite alot.
: c4
: --
: Christopher Lau | Nortel Wireless Networks / Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
: Mr. Unix | This article contains my own opinions, not BNR's.
: -- | Bring back Trudeau!
: cc...@bnr.ca | (613)-763-8392
-Daeymion
(Chiba City Bbs (MA/SCA/RPG) - Sysop)
Donny CHAN
]>As for thumbs being wrapped over fingers, I have never heard of this
]>either. I know of two general styles of grip: The first, which is what
]>I was taught is to grip firmly with the little finger, a little less
]>with the next and a little less with the next and not at all with the
]>first finger. This sounds rather strange to the uninitiated but does
]>provide a very secure but not too tight grip.
]
]This is the way I was taught as well. I believe Mushashi mentions this
in
]"The Book of Five Rings" also.
I once read from somewhere, maybe a Chinese martial arts story, that
holding a sword in one hand is like holding a bird. Hold it too tight,
and the bird dies. Hold it too loose, and the bird escapes.
Hmm. Don't try this with your pet hamster. 8)
Julian Frost
> Julian Frost (jfr...@eclectic.ss.uci.edu) wrote:
> : There are Katas that include this "reverse" grip, as taught by Mitsuzuka
> : Sensei. The katas use this grip for thrusting to the rear when the saya
> : is grabbed from behind, and the grip is not changed for the next movement
> : which is a thrust to the front.
>
>
> How can you stab to the front with a reverse grip? I'm having trouble
> visualizing.
The right hand is reversed, the left hand is in a normal grip. In this
particular Kata, the edge of the sword is uppermost.
The kata is (as simply as I can explain it) performed as follows:
1) Step forward with right foot
2) Step forward with left foot (at this point, imaginary opponent grabs
the saya from behind)
3) Right hand grips Tsuka (handle) close to the Tsuba (hand guard) in a
reversed grip.
4) Right hand draws the sword out of the scabbard and as soon as the tip
of the sword is clear of the scabbard mouth, thrusts directly back (just
clearing your left arm -- hopefully!)
5) After pulling the blade out of the opponent, the tip of the sword is
allowed to drop and swing down such that it points to the front (edge
uppermost).
6) The left hand grips the handle in a normal grip, and the right foot
steps forward as you thrust to the front.
7) Pull the blade out of the opponent and turn clockwise to face the rear
again (moving your right foot "through" so that it is again the
forward foot), and thrust -- again with the blade uppermost.
8) Pull the blade out, turn counter-clockwise, allow the tip of the sword
to drop again and swing it all the way ontop of your head as you step
forward with the right foot. The grip of the left hand is changed, as is
that of the right (too hard to explain right now!) and you end up in
Jodan posture.
9) Slide forward with the right foot, and cut shomen
10) Turn counter-clockwise, step forward with the right foot, cut shomen
again.
11) Assume Seigan posture, then Chudan posture, then yoko-chiburi, then noto.
That's all... Corrections welcome!
Julian "Got to get outside quick to catch my ride to a seminar!" Frost
Donald J. Sherrard
> students of a discipline tend to be highly artistic and highly
> combat-ineffective. As anyone will tell you (if they fight much that
> is), combos requiring more than 3 strikes almost invariably fail
> because there is too much opurtunity for an appropriate parry,
> counterstrike or even just pure disengagement, and 3-strike combos
> often fail as well, but not as often. I know SCA and Melee fighters
> (groups that fight with heavier-than-fencing weapons weapons in
> free-style form) that are considered mediocre, good or masterful, that
> can EASILY take down a kin-do master. This is because the SCA and
> Melee people fight blow for blow, whereas the kin-do master tries to do
> some elaborate patern. The SCA and Melee people have more REAL
> fighting hours, even if they have less "practice" hours. The kin-do
> master looks cooler, but also looks dead after 10 or 20 seconds.
> Although there are appropriate counters to certain strikes that may
> resemble paterns, most sword fighting of any kind is mostly improv, as
> I'm sure most fencers and other swordsmen reading this will agree.
> Samurai were certainly skilled, but I seriously doubt the ones that
> lived a long time used paterns in battle: they fought it strike by
> strike. Fencing tends to be the same way to in my experience.
>
there is such a thing as a reverse grip on the sword, as used by Samurai,
and was not invented by hollywood, which I think she established. In
fact, I learned a similar draw and thrust movement from my Aikido Sensei
during one of our weapons classes. However, I would like to contest your
claim that an average SCA fighter could EASILY take down a kin-do master.
Firstly, I'm not sure I know what a kin-do master is. I know of Kenjutsu,
Kendo, and Iaido, but I've never heard of kin-do. I assume you mean
some sort of Japanese sword master. If you mean Kendo, then
your post makes no sense, since Kendo, like fencing, consists mostly of
competition matches between two people, not "elaborate patterns."
Secondly, I have never seen elaborate patterns in any sword style.
I am familiar with Iaido and Kenjutsu from my six years in Aikido, and
neither use very complex techniques. Iaido has a draw and cut mentality,
ONE cut for the most part, not too elaborate. Kenjutsu is extremely
practical, and as far as I can tell uses a very small number of basic
cuts. There are some lengthy katas (or taigi, as we say, I'm unsure of
the difference) which contain the same cuts executed in different
directions. However, there is sparring between two opponents in kenjutsu
as well, though that is usually a one attack one cut sort of thing. A
battle between skilled Samurai did not last any longer than that. Iaido
is the only art I mentioned that has no sparring, and it has nothing
that could be construed as eleborate patterns. So, your post apparently
does not apply to any of these arts. A master of any of them could easily
handle a member of the SCA. I think the one attack one cut I mentioned
would pretty much be the result of such a competition.
Donald J. Sherrard
> Julian Frost (jfr...@eclectic.ss.uci.edu) wrote:
> : There are Katas that include this "reverse" grip, as taught by Mitsuzuka
> : Sensei. The katas use this grip for thrusting to the rear when the saya
> : is grabbed from behind, and the grip is not changed for the next movement
> : which is a thrust to the front.
>
>
> How can you stab to the front with a reverse grip? I'm having trouble
> visualizing.
>
Make a fist. Hold it in front of your chest with your thumb towards you
and your pinky away from you. Imagine a blade extending from your fist,
away from your chest. Now move your hand away from you chest, keeping the
thumb facing you and the pinky facing away. Congratulations! You've just
simulated stabbing to the front with a reverse grip!
P.S. This post is meant to be humourous, not mean spirited, so no flames
please!
Rick Cook
>I once read from somewhere, maybe a Chinese martial arts story, that
>holding a sword in one hand is like holding a bird. Hold it too tight,
>and the bird dies. Hold it too loose, and the bird escapes.
>
needs to be under control as well.
--RC
Cosmoboy
tcad...@ix.netcom.com (Tommy L. Cadwell ) wrote:
>I would argue that this martial arts "paterns" that are tought to
>students of a discipline tend to be highly artistic and highly
>combat-ineffective.
Maybe taichi sword, but then again, it wasn't meant for combat so
you're wrong here.
>As anyone will tell you (if they fight much that
>is), combos requiring more than 3 strikes almost invariably fail
>because there is too much opurtunity for an appropriate parry,
>counterstrike or even just pure disengagement, and 3-strike combos
>often fail as well, but not as often.
>
Seeing as how a REAL swordfight would last less than 3 strokes at the
MOST, of course its unrealistic to use 'patterns' in combat.
>I know SCA and Melee fighters
>(groups that fight with heavier-than-fencing weapons weapons in
>free-style form) that are considered mediocre, good or masterful, that
>can EASILY take down a kin-do master. This is because the SCA and
>Melee people fight blow for blow, whereas the kin-do master tries to do
>some elaborate patern. The SCA and Melee people have more REAL
>fighting hours, even if they have less "practice" hours. The kin-do
>master looks cooler, but also looks dead after 10 or 20 seconds.
>
Hmm. seeing as how a duel between two swordsmen in Japan would last
less than 2 seconds at a maximum I don't see howwhat you are saying
applies to real combat.
SCA? I'm sorry, but this is not a realistic representation of combat
- in SCA, if you lose, you're still alive - in reality, you lose
you're dead. It is a totally different mindset - why do you think the
Japanese were so obsessed with death? SCA - Hmph.
Randell Jesup
>> I would argue that this martial arts "paterns" that are tought to
>> students of a discipline tend to be highly artistic and highly
>> is), combos requiring more than 3 strikes almost invariably fail
>> because there is too much opurtunity for an appropriate parry,
>> counterstrike or even just pure disengagement, and 3-strike combos
>> (groups that fight with heavier-than-fencing weapons weapons in
>> free-style form) that are considered mediocre, good or masterful, that
>> can EASILY take down a kin-do master. This is because the SCA and
[Much well-written rebuttal of the quote above deleted]
I'll add that "patterns" (kata) aren't necessarily meant to be
executed in combat. They're to train your mind and muscles to react
correctly without thought in various situations, as well as to drill in
the correct way to execute various actions. Drilling in techniques without
putting them in context is incomplete - I'm sure most fencers would agree.
>that could be construed as eleborate patterns. So, your post apparently
>does not apply to any of these arts. A master of any of them could easily
>handle a member of the SCA. I think the one attack one cut I mentioned
>would pretty much be the result of such a competition.
In fact, some kenjutsu sensei I've known were/are SCA fighters.
One in particular was the late Sensei Fred Tart, of the Sandia Budokan in NM.
He was a long-term knight in the SCA (which involves more than just martial
prowess). He was a very high dan in Itto-Tenshin Ryu Kenjutsu (I remember
him joking about someone, saying roughly "hey, he's just a lowly rokudan"
(with a smile). I think he was the highest ranked (or equal-highest) of
Lovret's students. I understand he died a few years ago of a heart attack
during a demo. He was also a quite accomplished kyudo-ka; studying under
the kyudo bow-making master in Colorado. One of the nicest people I've ever
met.
He said nothing disparaging about the ability of the best SCA fighters
that I know of (most aren't highly skilled, of course, which is one reason why
there are knighthoods and master-of-arms titles handed out). Certainly he was
not "easy meat" to any SCA fighter - given his rank in the SCA and a short
discussion with him, I'd guess he was better than 95% of SCA fighters, and
quite possibly more.
It is a different game, but one closely akin to kenjutsu. Iaidoka
and (to a lesser degree) kendoka would have learning to do to take up SCA
fighting - and kenjutsuka as well, just they would need less adjustment.
However, much of the physical training, the strategy, the mental centering,
etc would shorten the time to learn SCA fighting (and other non-sword martial
arts (and fencing) would help too).
To be blunt, the person quoted up top (name deleted) is a fool.
FYI, I'm (in order of taking them up), a fencer, an (inactive) SCA
fighter, a kenjutsuka (when I get a chance - rarely) (with some iaido and
kendo thrown in), and I've done a bit of SCA fencing long ago.
--
Randell Jesup, Scala US R&D, Ex-Commodore-Amiga Engineer class of '94
Randel...@scala.com
#include <std/disclaimer>
Exon food: <offensive words censored by order of the Senate>
Kim A Taylor
: In <4l34sk$7...@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> kata...@uoguelph.ca (Kim A
: Taylor) writes:
: >Practical?? It was invented by a real samurai and they wouldn't make
: up a
: >kata just for show would they? ;-).
: I would argue that this martial arts "paterns" that are tought to
: students of a discipline tend to be highly artistic and highly
: combat-ineffective.
Oh dear, if my jodo sensei were to read this and think that's what I
meant my life is in danger! Hey sensei, I really don't think kata are
useless, honest! I've seen you swing that thing! ;-)
As anyone will tell you (if they fight much that
: is), combos requiring more than 3 strikes almost invariably fail
: because there is too much opurtunity for an appropriate parry,
: counterstrike or even just pure disengagement, and 3-strike combos
: often fail as well, but not as often.
Interesting, perhaps that's why most koryu kata are three strikes or
less?? Most of the Niten Ichi kata are one swing by each partner and
someone is "dead".
I know SCA and Melee fighters
: (groups that fight with heavier-than-fencing weapons weapons in
: free-style form) that are considered mediocre, good or masterful, that
: can EASILY take down a kin-do master.
The art of having relatives?
Kim "useless sword patterns taught here" Taylor
--
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Donny CHAN
<Pine.A32.3.92a.96042...@homer08.u.washington.edu>,]On 19 Apr 1996, Rob Del Greco wrote:
]> How can you stab to the front with a reverse grip? I'm having trouble
]> visualizing.
]>
]Make a fist. Hold it in front of your chest with your thumb towards you
]and your pinky away from you. Imagine a blade extending from your fist,
]away from your chest. Now move your hand away from you chest, keeping the
]thumb facing you and the pinky facing away. Congratulations! You've just
]simulated stabbing to the front with a reverse grip!
]
]P.S. This post is meant to be humourous, not mean spirited, so no flames
]please!
[BABYLON 5 SPOILER ALERT]
Last Saturday's episode of Babylon 5 had a Narn who held a long knife with the
reverse grip. But it was a knife, not a sword. Later, a second Narn used a
katar, the hilt of which is perpendicular to the blade.
Rick Cook
> Later, a second Narn used a
>katar, the hilt of which is perpendicular to the blade.
>
combination.
--RC
Stephen O Gombosi
Donald J. Sherrard <sher...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>> I know SCA and Melee fighters
>> (groups that fight with heavier-than-fencing weapons weapons in
>> free-style form) that are considered mediocre, good or masterful, that
>> can EASILY take down a kin-do master.
>Firstly, I'm not sure I know what a kin-do master is. I know of Kenjutsu,
Well, based on my knowledge of Japanese slang it has something to do with
somebody's groin. I'd say it's probably just another phallo-cinematic
reference - no doubt employing a reverse grip.
Steve
Paul Gorman
: Donny CHAN wrote:
: >I once read from somewhere, maybe a Chinese martial arts story, that
: >holding a sword in one hand is like holding a bird. Hold it too tight,
: >and the bird dies. Hold it too loose, and the bird escapes.
The film 'Scaramouche' actually (I think).
Michael L. Weishaar
I also heard that you should hold your sword like a baby holds your
finger.
-Michael
--
Randell Jesup
eq...@westminster.ac.uk (Paul Gorman) wrote:
>: >I once read from somewhere, maybe a Chinese martial arts story, that
>: >holding a sword in one hand is like holding a bird. Hold it too tight,
>: >and the bird dies. Hold it too loose, and the bird escapes.
>
>The film 'Scaramouche' actually (I think).
The oldest reference I know of is to a fencing master ~300 years ago.
I forget the name, even though I heard it last night.
Demon Buddha
Michael L. Weishaar <weis...@cig.mot.com> wrote:
>I also heard that you should hold your sword like a baby holds your
>finger.
>
Yes, or as John Denora used to put it: "You hold the sword as id you were
holding a small bird".
IOW you don't clench down with a suicide grip on the tsuka as this will
greatly impair your ability to move with fluidity.
Gotta be loose as a goose.
--
"I have a high art; I hurt with cruelty those who would damage me."
-Archilocus, 650 BCE
HEATH JULIE
In article <4lo9v1$e...@badger.wmin.ac.uk>,
>: >I once read from somewhere, maybe a Chinese martial arts story, that
>: >holding a sword in one hand is like holding a bird. Hold it too tight,
>: >and the bird dies. Hold it too loose, and the bird escapes.
>
>The film 'Scaramouche' actually (I think).
Yes, it is in 'Scaramouche.' What a wonderful fencing movie! Didn't
care much for the book though, I'm afraid.
--
Julie Anne Heath, M.A. -=Who needs rhetorical questions?=-
Department of Buying and Contracting
http://stripe.Colorado.EDU/~jheath/Home.html
John Husvar
Some...@who.knows.where.org wrote: (Sorry, lost track of the
attributions when they got 5-deep.:)
> >: >I once read from somewhere, maybe a Chinese martial arts story, that
> >: >holding a sword in one hand is like holding a bird. Hold it too tight,
> >: >and the bird dies. Hold it too loose, and the bird escapes.
Funny you should mention that. I wrote to a friend not long ago:
(more or less accurate quote)
"I learned from some of the people at the Todd Curn to ease my grip on
the weapon. Now I'm learning to hold it lightly and let it find a place
where it's comfortable, holding it tightly enough to be secure but
loosely enough it can do it's job. (Something employers, lovers, parents,
etc. would do well to learn, no?)"
There seems to be a very Zen kind of feel those rare times when it all
comes together and the blade seems to float to the target, almost without
thought or effort: See the target-touch the target--and the intermediate
steps somehow seem to disappear.
Or is this old beginner imagining things again?
--
It's beat and bind and cut and thrust,/ It's arm and hand and breath./
It's eye and nerve and steel and blood,/ The swordsman's dance of death.
-- M. Longcor: The Swordsman
John Husvar SCA: Johan Wagenfahrer the Cripple Chet vinh hon song
nhuc
Thomas R. Ayles
John Husvar <jhu...@winc.com> wrote:
>re or less accurate quote)
>"I learned from some of the people at the Todd Curn to ease my grip on
>the weapon. Now I'm learning to hold it lightly and let it find a place
>where it's comfortable, holding it tightly enough to be secure but
>loosely enough it can do it's job. (Something employers, lovers, parents,
>etc. would do well to learn, no?)"
>
>There seems to be a very Zen kind of feel those rare times when it all
>comes together and the blade seems to float to the target, almost without
>thought or effort: See the target-touch the target--and the intermediate
>steps somehow seem to disappear.
Well thought, well spoken. The all too rare moment of movement without
thought of the move.
>Or is this old beginner imagining things again?
>--
>It's beat and bind and cut and thrust,/ It's arm and hand and breath./
>It's eye and nerve and steel and blood,/ The swordsman's dance of death.
> -- M. Longcor: The Swordsman
>John Husvar SCA: Johan Wagenfahrer the Cripple Chet vinh hon song
>nhuc
Where did you find this poem? I thought I was reading a Kipling until I
say the credits. Goes well at a bardic circle, no?
Thomas (also in the SCA)
Cheung Tam
: >: Donny CHAN wrote:
: >: >I once read from somewhere, maybe a Chinese martial arts story, that
: >: >and the bird dies. Hold it too loose, and the bird escapes.
I read in a Japanese Swordsmanship book that one should hold the sword
like an egg.
I wonder which of these two statements came first . . . . . . ? :)
Later . . . .