Sera in the US
Chas
Forward to newsgroup (ba...@juno.com (Willem de Thouars), 16:41)
To:
gryp...@Worldnet.att.net (Chas Clements, Guru Tiga)
Pentjac Serak(Sera) Silat was first introduced on the East coast
by the late William Reeders , in Erie, Pennsylvania. The late Reeders
was instructed by Ness de Vries known as "Ventje" some years before the
second world war.
Ventje's son, Dolf de Vries is able to attest to this. The most accurate
information can be obtained through him, he presently resides in
Leewarden, The Netherlands. You can also acquire information directly
through the Cimande village in Ci Anjur, West Java Indonesia.
All these systems are also currently being practiced in Garut, West Java.
Presently Pendekar Antjok is the most qualified grandteacher in
Ci Calong, Ci Mande and Sera in Indonesia.
William Reeders and Maurice de Thouars were students of the late Ventje
de Vries. Paul de Thouars was a student of John de Vries.
Victor de Thouars was a student of Paul de Thouars. These four
are all outstanding teachers in the system of Serak.
Delightfully, I an always the skipper of my own ship and my arts that I
practice are more Chinese Shao Lin first and Pentjak Silat next.
I thank God, I am most certain not a wolf in sheeps clothing. My teachers;
Ang, Liong, Buk, Chen, Deerns, Welsh, Repew, Alston, Ling, Sardjono,
Atjo and Tanahci taught me many skills over many years of hard training.
I don't have to imitate anyone, I only want to be me. There is no
denying that Paul de Thouars was my inspirational teacher without taking away
from all my other teachers.
Sigung Willem de Thouars
Father of KunTao Silat de Thouars
Otter
Chas wrote:
>
> Forward to newsgroup (ba...@juno.com (Willem de Thouars), 16:41)
> To:
> gryp...@Worldnet.att.net (Chas Clements, Guru Tiga)
>
> Pentjac Serak(Sera) Silat was first introduced on the East coast
> by the late William Reeders , in Erie, Pennsylvania.
Thank you (& Mr. de Thouars) for the info.
Forgive my piecing bits of info & convoluted memories together to form
this question. Is Pentjac Serak Silat somehow related to a style of
pukulan (sp?) taught by the Wetzels (father & son)? The reason I ask
is, (a) sometimes your "extended name" of your art includes 'pukulan'
(b) I think I remember you and perhaps Wild Bill discussing something
about the Wetzel's pukulan a few months ago (c) I grew up about 1 1/2
hrs south of Erie, PA, and can vaguely remember a dojo in Rochester or
New Brighton, PA, run by somebody by the name of Wetzel with the words
"pukulan (something)" over the door.
Sorry for the generalities here. Just kinda curious.
Maybe I'll just go take a nap or something, then my thoughts won't be so
jumbled. But I doubt it.... :)
-- Otter
Chas
Otter wrote:
>
> Chas wrote:
> >
> > Forward to newsgroup (ba...@juno.com (Willem de Thouars), 16:41)
> > To:
> > gryp...@Worldnet.att.net (Chas Clements, Guru Tiga)
> >
> > Pentjac Serak(Sera) Silat was first introduced on the East coast
> > by the late William Reeders , in Erie, Pennsylvania.
>
> Thank you (& Mr. de Thouars) for the info.
> pukulan (sp?) taught by the Wetzels (father & son)? The reason I ask
> is, (a) sometimes your "extended name" of your art includes 'pukulan'
> (b) I think I remember you and perhaps Wild Bill discussing something
> about the Wetzel's pukulan a few months ago (c) I grew up about 1 1/2
> hrs south of Erie, PA, and can vaguely remember a dojo in Rochester or
> New Brighton, PA, run by somebody by the name of Wetzel with the words
> "pukulan (something)" over the door.
'Pukulan' means; 'pukul' to strike or collide, 'an' a suffix meaning
'study of', kind of like 'ology'.
Pukulan implies a rough brawling with lots of striking. More than that,
it implies the 'displante', the 'uprooting' of the opponent by colliding
with him in the body. this is why you see the shoulder strikes,
headbutts, hip strikes, knees and so on.
Pukulan is the art that teaches the kerampit, a knuckle duster hooked
knife related to the bagh-nagh and the jambiya. Again the art depends on
close pugging and uprooting.
I use the long formal name on formal occasions. By and large, I don't
post using internal honorifics because they don't relate to other styles
or whatever. It may be of interest to you, however, to know what they
mean;
Pukulan- as above
Kuntao- chinese arts as practiced on Indonesia
Silat- 'lightning' or 'blade', indigenous Indonesian martial art
Kilap- 'thunder' the manipulation of vulnerabilities of the opponent
Betawi- 'in the style of Betawi' old name for Djakarta- one of the
roughest ports on earth (sailing the 'seven seas' meant sailing in the
seas of Indonesia).
Bukti Negara- evidence of the continent of the body of knowledge of
Serak
Tongkat- carrier stick- carrier of the knowledge of Serak
KunLun Pai- animal hand of kunlun- the brotherhood of KunLun, a mountain
range
Willie Wetzel was a fine practitioner. I believe that he was killed by
his son some years ago. The base of the art is the same, the specifics
differ in some greater degree. Our common root is probably TjiMande
(cimande, lots of variations) Silat from Western Java- southern Sumatra.
TjiMande and TjiKalong are 'older brother' arts to Serak.
the de Vries name is part of the de Thouars extended family- Ness,
Johan, two Johns' were maternal uncles, grandfather, etc.
Our guru ratings are; Guru Muda, young guru (opts to learn how to
instruct)- Guru Satu, supervised instructor- Guru Dua, independant
instructor- Guru Tiga, leader of instructors- Guru Empat (Tuan), senior
leader- Maha Guru, lineage heir to the holy legacy art- Pendekar,
champion/ a fighting priest. One would be called the last three levels
by others, it is not seemly to publish a higher rank than 'tiga' or
maybe 'tuan' oneself. A self proclaimed 'pendekar' is a pendejo.
Hope this helped some,
Chas
Otter
Yep, sure did. And then some :)
Willie Wetzel must've been the same Wetzel from my (old) area...I can
remember everyone talking about "the son killing the father". I almost
feel cheated that I didn't at least go visit his school back then.
Again, many thanks!
-- Otter
Chas
Otter wrote:
>
> Yep, sure did. And then some :)
Well, it's a winter storm outside and I just got to nattering on-
> Willie Wetzel must've been the same Wetzel from my (old) area...I can
> remember everyone talking about "the son killing the father". I almost
> feel cheated that I didn't at least go visit his school back then.
You might remember in the past that I said that some of our practices
could get very dangerous to ones' sanity. A number of our more public
practitioners have acted out violently with very dire results.
I, myself, have been accused of being kind of sudden, what with one
little thing and another.
It must be hard to practice the way of the warrior on the off chance
that someone will assault one while one is selling office supplies.
Certain meditations and such are not appropriate to non-active warriors.
The affliction can come to a teacher because we are expected to do
things for the sake of maintaining the knowledge as well as what we
would do in our own practice.
>
> Again, many thanks!
>
> -- Otter
chas
Otter
Chas wrote:
>
> Otter wrote:
> >
> > Yep, sure did. And then some :)
>
> Well, it's a winter storm outside and I just got to nattering on-
Always feel free to natter away...it's good stuff.
>
> > Willie Wetzel must've been the same Wetzel from my (old) area...I can
> > remember everyone talking about "the son killing the father". I almost
> > feel cheated that I didn't at least go visit his school back then.
>
> You might remember in the past that I said that some of our practices
> could get very dangerous to ones' sanity.
Yep, I 'member...
> A number of our more public
> practitioners have acted out violently with very dire results.
> I, myself, have been accused of being kind of sudden, what with one
> little thing and another.
> It must be hard to practice the way of the warrior on the off chance
> that someone will assault one while one is selling office supplies.
> Certain meditations and such are not appropriate to non-active warriors.
> The affliction can come to a teacher because we are expected to do
> things for the sake of maintaining the knowledge as well as what we
> would do in our own practice.
> >
It's unfortunate that happens. But, we must be thankful that someone is
willing to risk that for the sake of preserving the the rest of the body
of knowledge, I suppose.
-- Otter
Todd D. Ellner
In article <3523A5...@wcoil.com>, Otter <Otter> wrote:
>Forgive my piecing bits of info & convoluted memories together to form
>pukulan (sp?) taught by the Wetzels (father & son)?
same root as "pugilism" and means "hitting", more or less. Someone who
uses the workd pukulan probably is or studied with a Dutch-Indo
practitioner (such as the de Thouars or Wetzel families).
Todd
--
Todd Ellner | Shame is Pride's cloke.
tel...@cs.pdx.edu | --William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
(503)493-4431 |
Chas
Todd D. Ellner wrote:
> The word "pukulan" is of Dutch-Indonesian provenance. It comes from the
> same root as "pugilism" and means "hitting", more or less. Someone who
> uses the workd pukulan probably is or studied with a Dutch-Indo
> practitioner (such as the de Thouars or Wetzel families).
> Todd
brawling' as opposed to the more refined 'royal' arts. Also an
implication of civilian rather than military usages; the streetman
rather than the noble warrior for the king.
One of the insights that took me a long time was the torso applications
of colliding in the pukulan art; I had approached it more as pummeling.
When I saw it as the sophisticated art that it is, positionally, it was
a nice jump.
chas
Eric Bovelander
SALAM PERGURUAN :
My name is Eric Bovelander,
I like to coment a little on the items that are writen down about Pencak
Silat.
Let me introduce myself first :
I'm the chief instructor and representative (Pembawa Aliran) off the
Dutch branch
of Perguruan P.S. Padjadjaran. Our headoffice (pusat) is in Bogor
Indonesia.
Also I'm boardmember in the Dutch National Pancak Silat Organisation
(NPSB).
Besides that I'm International Referee in Pencak Silat Olah Raga and
Pencak Silat Seni.
I like to comment on some names and items you all use :
Pukulan means just :
Hitting or punching (the Dutch Indies people made this word to an "art")
> Silat- 'lightning' or 'blade', indigenous Indonesian martial art
Silat just means the art of fighting !
> Kilap- 'thunder' the manipulation of vulnerabilities of the opponent
Kilap doesn't mean anything, however KILAT is lightning.
> Bukti Negara- evidence of the continent of the body of knowledge of Serak
There is a traditional P.S. system called Bakti Negara on Bali, this
hasn't anything to do with SERAK.
Serak is a traditional style from the village Jasinga in the Banten
area.
It means "PASRAH" and the founder is Eyang H.Isak ( alias H. Muhroji)
> Tongkat- carrier stick- carrier of the knowledge of Serak
A "Tongkat" is just a stick, I have never seen it used by my Serak
teachers in Indonesia.
> Our common root is probably TjiMande (cimande, lots of variations) Silat from Western Java- southern Sumatra.
> TjiMande and TjiKalong are 'older brother' arts to Serak.
Cimande is the oldest style in West-Java, it was founded by Eyang
Chairudin (alias Mbah Kair).
Cimande is a little village in the Bogor area, one of the "Kampungs" in
the Cimande village is the Kampung Tarikolot. Tarikolot has two place to
train "Penca Cimande" these are : "Cimande Girang" (means on top off the
mountain) and "Cimande Hilir" (means downstream).
In both of these systems are diverent training methods. You start with
the first, and if you're good enough you go on to the next.
My teacher is H. Nazarrudin in the Cimande Girang area.
The systems in Cimande Girang are :
Salancar, Luk Paku, Alip, Bale Rante and Jalak Pengkor
In Cimande Hilir you have "Madi" and "Kari"
The meaning of Cimande is : "CAI IMAN ANU HADE" This is in the native
Sundanees language.
Pencak Silat Cikalong is founded by Raden H.Ibrahim Djajaperbata (alias
Mohammed Kosim)in the Cianjur area, exactly in the "Kampung Wetan" in
the village "Cikalong" and (and he is buried in "Perdalaman Cikundul".
The name and movements of Cikalong doesn't have anything tho do with a
"Kalong" (in english a BAT),Cikalong is just the village where its
origin is, its true there are a lot off bats, that's because its a
mountain area with lots of caves.
In pencak Silat Cikalong there are also two diverent systems, these are
"Cikalong Wetan" and "Cikalong Kulon".
My teacher is Raden Popoh in the Cipatat area, he is a Grandmaster in
the direct lineage of Raden H.Ibrahim.
Cikalong Kulon is a younger system and it was the inspiration for
another style caled "Sahbandar" , a lot of pencak silat Sahbandar you
can find in the Garut area.
By the way,
lots of teachers like :
Ario, Baron, Ottens , Beynon, Ingram, Terlinden, de Vries, Liem Hiong
Ling, Paulus, de Thouars,and some more served together in Irian Jaya
(former New Guinea) in the Dutch Army, or Dutch Police Force.
The native population are Papua's do you think there doing Pencak Silat
?
Maybe the teachers learned from eachother, because what I have seen its
all very similar.
It is certainly posible that they learned some movements in other
places, but in my opinion natives don't give away there skills and
techniques to the agressor !
What I want to say is : Traditional pencak silat you have to learn in
Indonesia !
I'm not a better fighter or instructor then other people, but I just
opened my eyes to see reality !
I HOPE NOT TO OFFEND ANYONE WITH THESE COMMENTS, IF I DO, I'M SORRY !!!
BUT THIS IS THE WAY I LEARNED IT, I SEE IT, AND BELIEVE IT !
everybody is welcome to give comment on this, its just a little piece of
my knowledge.
If you want you can learn a lot from the old books that are writen by
experts,
not modern books like the book from Draeger, its to modern and just an
overview.
Not to mention other socalled specialists who are calling themself
Pendekar or whatever
and making videotapes witch are all alike, but just use other names!
Look for historical things, there is a lot !
Hope to here something
Hormat kami :
ERIC BOVELANDER
Pompenmaker 2
5506 CM Veldhoven
phone and fax :+31-40-2537777
mailto:er...@xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ericb/
Chas
Eric Bovelander wrote:
>
> SALAM PERGURUAN :
>
> My name is Eric Bovelander,
> Hope to here something
>
> Hormat kami :
>
> ERIC BOVELANDER
Everyone should know that my personal attempt to define words in the
languages of the Javanese/Indonesians are subject to mistake and that
those mistakes are my own and not the fault of anyone else. As I have
been translating from oral information, and as I have been relating
words to their martial usages among we practitioners only, many of the
words have multiple meanings and usages. It may also have been a fault
of my hearing or my notetaking capability.
My apologies to anyone that might have been misled, the mistakes are
mine alone.
My profound thanks to Mr. Bovelander for his information and interest in
Pentjak Silat practiced in the US.
Dengan Hormat
Chas Clements
Eric Bovelander
> Everyone should know that my personal attempt to define words in the
> languages of the Javanese/Indonesians are subject to mistake and that
> those mistakes are my own and not the fault of anyone else. As I have
> been translating from oral information, and as I have been relating
> words to their martial usages among we practitioners only, many of the
> words have multiple meanings and usages. It may also have been a fault
> of my hearing or my notetaking capability.
>
> My apologies to anyone that might have been misled, the mistakes are
> mine alone.
>
> My profound thanks to Mr. Bovelander for his information and interest in
> Pentjak Silat practiced in the US.
>
> Dengan Hormat
> Chas Clements
OK Chas,
by the way you're answering my comment, you show that you have the right
spirit to be a "Pesilat"
It's not you're or anybody's fault, but just the way of circumstances.
My filosofy is : if you like what you do, why bother, not anybody has
the time to travel and do research.
My interest in Pencak Silat is worldwide, I had a lot of discussions in
the past with people al over the world.
I'm just fortunate to speak Bahasa Indonesia, and have been several
times in Indonesia just for research and training.
I hope to meet some of you , because I have plans to visit the U.S in
the near future, and while staying there I hope to visit some Pencak
Silat schools.
Hormat Kami
Eric Bovelander
ps. the comments where not personal to you Chas , but in general !
Chas
Eric Bovelander wrote:
> I hope to meet some of you , because I have plans to visit the U.S in
> the near future, and while staying there I hope to visit some Pencak
> Silat schools.
Please join us at your convenience, we would enjoy extending our
hospitality and fellowship while you are here.
>
> Hormat Kami
>
> Eric Bovelander
>
> ps. the comments where not personal to you Chas , but in general !
I would like to do a good job on my 'glossary'- none of the Indonesian
languages are commonly used here and mistrakes are really easy to make.
Thanks again for your interest.
Chas
David_Boylan
In article <35311A...@xs4all.nl>, er...@xs4all.nl says...
>
>SALAM PERGURUAN :
>
>My name is Eric Bovelander,
>
>
>Hormat kami :
>
>ERIC BOVELANDER
>5506 CM Veldhoven
>phone and fax :+31-40-2537777
>mailto:er...@xs4all.nl
>http://www.xs4all.nl/~ericb/
>
hi eric,
What differnces do you notice in the PS systems that you are familiar
with and what do you notice are the same in the above group?
Dave
Todd D. Ellner
In article <35311A...@xs4all.nl>, Eric Bovelander <er...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>My name is Eric Bovelander,
>Pukulan means just :
>Hitting or punching (the Dutch Indies people made this word to an "art")
Yup, that's what I've always heard. Comes from the same root as "pugilism".
What they told me was that someone who used the term was probably a Dutch-
Indo or had trained with them.
>> Bukti Negara- evidence of the continent of the body of knowledge of Serak
>There is a traditional P.S. system called Bakti Negara on Bali, this
>hasn't anything to do with SERAK.
>Serak is a traditional style from the village Jasinga in the Banten
>area.
Paul de Thouars is a Dutch-Indonesian immigrant to the United States and
a Serak practitioner. He created a style called Bukti Negara as a personal
expression of his practice and as a shorter and more limited curriculum
for American students who are very mobile and don't stick around in one
place for 10+ years.
>A "Tongkat" is just a stick, I have never seen it used by my Serak
>teachers in Indonesia.
Tongkat is another personal expression of the de Thouars family. It is
currently in the charge of Victor de Thouars.
>By the way, lots of teachers like :
>Ario, Baron, Ottens , Beynon, Ingram, Terlinden, de Vries, Liem Hiong
>Ling, Paulus, de Thouars,and some more served together in Irian Jaya
>(former New Guinea) in the Dutch Army, or Dutch Police Force.
>The native population are Papua's do you think there doing Pencak Silat?
>Maybe the teachers learned from eachother, because what I have seen its
>all very similar.
>It is certainly posible that they learned some movements in other
>places, but in my opinion natives don't give away there skills and
>techniques to the agressor !
The de Vries and de Thouars families are cousins. Rudy Terlinden was
a long time associate of Paul de Thouars and is listed as a student of
his in an old Dutch magazine article which my teacher has. Jim Ingram
has been a friend of Willem de Thoaurs for a long time. It is quite
possible that a lot of what they do looks similar because they have
been associated with each other.
As for "don't give away skills and techniques to the agressor" I dunno.
The Dutch were there for several hundred years and got involved with
every other cultural practice. No reason why they wouldn't learn Silat
as well.
>What I want to say is : Traditional pencak silat you have to learn in
>Indonesia !
That's debatable. The Indonesian government has been doing its best to
turn Silat into Tae Kwon Do - a standardized national sport rather than
an effective fighting tradition. To the extent to which they succeed
you are more likely to find traditional Silat out in the countryside
and overseas rather than in the mother country. It's a lot like other
cultural practices. Emigrants tend to be more conservative about them
than people in the country in which they originated. I don't know to
what extent this will be or is true of Pencak Silat, but it's not so
simple as "go to the source".
>I HOPE NOT TO OFFEND ANYONE WITH THESE COMMENTS, IF I DO, I'M SORRY !!!
> BUT THIS IS THE WAY I LEARNED IT, I SEE IT, AND BELIEVE IT !
I'm not offended, but I think you've swallowed some things which are not
complete. It's not worth fighting over, but it is worth discussion and
sharing a virtual beer or two over while we do.
>If you want you can learn a lot from the old books that are writen by
>experts,
I'd love to get some of these books whatever language they are in.
>not modern books like the book from Draeger, its to modern and just an
>overview.
Draeger, for all that he did, spent most of his time in or around the
capital. He had flaws as a scholar (including an obsession with secrecy)
and is prominent chiefly by being the only author on the subject writing
in English.
>Not to mention other socalled specialists who are calling themself
>Pendekar or whatever
>and making videotapes witch are all alike, but just use other names!
Such as?
regards,
Todd
--
Todd Ellner | Drive your cart and your plow over the bones of the dead.
Chas
Todd D. Ellner wrote:
>
> In article <35311A...@xs4all.nl>, Eric Bovelander <er...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >A "Tongkat" is just a stick, I have never seen it used by my Serak
> >teachers in Indonesia.
> Tongkat is another personal expression of the de Thouars family. It is
> currently in the charge of Victor de Thouars.
As I understand it, the 'tongkat' is a particular kind of stick- a
laminated, hook ended burden bearing stick. Maha Guru Victor took the
name to mean the 'carrier of the knowledge of Serak'- the full name of
the system would be Pukulan Pentjak Silat Kilap Tongkat.
In fact, the bow from the first djuru consists of 'rolling the stick (to
free the hooks), dumping the load off of one side and using the weight
of the other burdent to drive the stick in speed.
Now, they seem to use the 'kilat', 'khilap', 'kilap' and sometimes
'gilap' (the brightening) almost interchangeably- signifying the 'hand
of thunder'- the manipulation of the vulnerabilities of the opponent.
> >By the way, lots of teachers like :
> >Ario, Baron, Ottens , Beynon, Ingram, Terlinden, de Vries, Liem Hiong
> >Ling, Paulus, de Thouars,and some more served together in Irian Jaya
> >(former New Guinea) in the Dutch Army, or Dutch Police Force.
> >The native population are Papua's do you think there doing Pencak Silat?
I have wondered what the arts are called that are done by the 'real
primitives'- I know that much of what we do is derived and
'sophisticated' from what they do- mostly under the aegis of the
Muslims. The 'sharp stick' cultures; headhunters, cannibals- constantly
at war, must have some great technic.
Most of the de Thouars family were killed by the Japanese- Willem was in
a Japanese concentration camp in Thailand and then in two more prison
camps under Sucarno before escaping. They were leaders of the resistance
against the Japanese and against the nationalist dictator.
>
> >Maybe the teachers learned from eachother, because what I have seen its
> >all very similar.
> >It is certainly posible that they learned some movements in other
> >places, but in my opinion natives don't give away there skills and
> >techniques to the agressor !
> The de Vries and de Thouars families are cousins. Rudy Terlinden was
> a long time associate of Paul de Thouars and is listed as a student of
> his in an old Dutch magazine article which my teacher has. Jim Ingram
> has been a friend of Willem de Thoaurs for a long time. It is quite
> possible that a lot of what they do looks similar because they have
> been associated with each other.
This may be non-PC to say, but it affects the art, so I say it; In a
mixed race culture, the children go with the mother. In the art, it
derives through the maternal uncle- brother of the mother of the
practitioner.
The 'platerans', mixed ethnic Chinese (usually muslim) and indigenous
peoples, did both the kuntao and the silat. The Dutch-Indonesians,
especially those of wealth and influence- education, studied the silat
and sometimes the kuntao. The poorer Dutch-Indonesians studied the silat
and did pukulan, sometimes mainpo (which can be on many levels) and more
'mannerist' arts.
The Dutch never did come as agressors; they came and traded and did
business. They married into the indigenous peoples and adjusted to the
culture. There were such tremendous feuds, wars, hereditary grudges and
so on between the various (estimates range from 1500 to 3500) separate
cultures/peoples/tribes, that the Dutch and the Muslims were cohesive
elements.
Agression against the Indonesians has never been particularly successful
by anyone; get along with them or go away. It's still that way.
> As for "don't give away skills and techniques to the agressor" I dunno.
> The Dutch were there for several hundred years and got involved with
> every other cultural practice. No reason why they wouldn't learn Silat
> as well.
>
> >What I want to say is : Traditional pencak silat you have to learn in
> >Indonesia !
(snipped Todds' good points)
There are still a thousand styles never seen here- there are
practitioners, steeped in their culture who do an art we have never
seen- there is literature, art, movement and dance, instrumentality,
that we will never understand- but,
what we have will do admirably until all that comes along.
> >I HOPE NOT TO OFFEND ANYONE WITH THESE COMMENTS, IF I DO, I'M SORRY !!!
> > BUT THIS IS THE WAY I LEARNED IT, I SEE IT, AND BELIEVE IT !
> I'm not offended, but I think you've swallowed some things which are not
> complete. It's not worth fighting over, but it is worth discussion and
> sharing a virtual beer or two over while we do.
I'm up- first pitchers' on me ;-)
Eric gets to choose the beer- he seems the connoisseur
> >not modern books like the book from Draeger, its to modern and just an
> >overview.
> Draeger, for all that he did, spent most of his time in or around the
> capital. He had flaws as a scholar (including an obsession with secrecy)
> and is prominent chiefly by being the only author on the subject writing
> in English.
He sure was a hell of a man in person. He cut trail where nobody'ed been
before. He was the only thing we had twenty five - thirty years ago.
> >Not to mention other socalled specialists who are calling themself
> >Pendekar or whatever
Just for an understanding from a knowledgeable man such as yourself;
define 'pendekar', please. As I don't know anyone who calls *himself* a
'pendekar', but only as are named that by someone else, I have heard it
defined about three ways now.
> >and making videotapes witch are all alike, but just use other names!
> Such as?
?
> regards,
> Todd
Best wishes and regards,
Chas
Dr. Philip H.J. Davies
Wassalam, Eric
I found your comments on Silat as played in Indonesia and the US very
interesting, although as others have already commented, some of them
(particularly the Bakhti Negara/Bukti Negara distinction) warrant some
clarification. I can't really invoke much in the way of formal status or
official standing, apart from the fact that I've been in the martial arts
trade for 21 years, I'm Assistant Chief Instructor under Paatje Richard
Kudding in the Flying Dragon Institute which teaches a form of Kuntao Macan
brought to the west by the late Paatje Carel Faulhaber (way back in 1954),
and I currently live & work in Singapore and hang out with the local
martial artists here.
My interest in writing is to address to issues which appear sidelong in
your post, and again appear subject to some clarification.
A number of the terms you refer to are indeed odd constructions, but I am
concerned that they may in some cases be matters of dialect forms, while
your comments appear to be confined to translations in contemporary
standard Bahasa Indonesia (based primarily on pasar melayu), a creature
which didn't really exist in quite the same way when Indos like de Vries,
de Thouars, and late Paatje Carel Faulhaber (who brought our perguruan of
Kuntao Macan to the west in 1954), left Indonesia. The result was folk
using a mixed bag of dialects from Javanese and Pasar Melayu through to
Makassarese (as it then was). *Some* of the terminological variations you
refer to may be dialect forms. As far as I know, no one has systematically
tried to chase down dialect variations in the subject, especially with the
emphasis of the current 'associations' on standardisation and
'modernisation' (not to mention the nationalist agenda that gets
piggybacked on a lot of contemporary Silat).
By way of illustration, a major perguruan silat here in Singapore is called
Seligi Tunggal -- 'Single Strike'. 'Tunggal' is standard Malay for
'single' or 'solitary', but the word Seligi is, I understand, a dialect
word from the obscure group of islands whence the perguruan originates.
On the question of pukulan, I suspect that this is a function of local,
idiomatic usage. I have encountered a number of people (unconnected with
the de Vries &c mainstream in the Western branch) who employ the term
pukulan in a very narrow, and strictly defined form as distinct from Silat.
My own guru in Kuntao Macan was originally taught a form of poekoelan
harimau by his father from age 5. Indeed, Paatje Faulhaber often stressed
the influence of pukulan (rather than silat) on his Kuntao style. A
peranakan Chinese friend of mine from Medan, Sumatra, residing in Toronto
also referred to pukulan (and showed me some of it), and finally the local
Singapore guru in a system called cekak serantau also learned a 'pukulan'
system from a Maduranese relative. All three describe pukulan in similar
terms: it consists not of 'banyak bunga-bunga', forms performed in the
manner of kesenian tulen, but rather blocks of short combinations similar
to jurus; it is typically a relatively 'hard' and aggressive category of
system'; and although all three performed very different combinations from
their respective pukulan forms, the common thread of short sequencing and
aggressiveness was noticeable. All three also stressed that the use of the
term 'pukulan' was a local idiom, all three agreeing on Medan, two on
western/central Java, and the guru Cekak Serantau adding Madura to the list
as well.
When asked why pukulan seems to have dropped off the map in Indonesian
martial arts, my colleague from Cekak Serantau speculated that most
perguruan pukulan tend to be very closed shops, and because of their
emphasis on self-defence have no interest in participating in the current,
competition-oriented persatuan since they don't do kesenian or ohla raga.
Be that as it may, the idiomatic form 'pukulan' certainly seems to have
fallen into disuse in the contemporary Indonesian mainstream.
As regards the suggestion that the only place to learn Silat being
Indonesia (with which I would be inclined on basic intuition to agree
with), I'd be inclined to point out a cautionary lesson from the Chinese
arts. Of one wishes to learn traditional, old-style, self-defence oriented
Chinese boxing, one does *not* for the most part go to China. The assorted
purges during the 1960s, the programme to standardise and make the art
essentially a form of gymnastics in the 1970s and 1980s, and the shift to
tournament fighting san da during the 1980s and 1990s means that there is
ver little left of the 'real thing' in the mainland (not none; it's just
buried under a lot of other stuff). Chinese boxing became a classic
illustration of what us sociologists call the 'Hartz-Horowitz fragmentation
thesis', in which the emigre communities became the last bastion of the
traditional forms, rather than the home communities. Now, what I see
amongst a lot of perguruan silat, the published information from the
various Indonesian associations, and amongst my Indonesian friends and
acquaintances is a shift in emphasis away from Silat as a life and death
self-defence issue and into performance oriented kesenian and competition
ohla raga. There exists a possibility that the ilmu tulen, the really old,
hard-line core of the art, its 'biji', may be more likely to survive in
emigre perguruan than 'modernised', 'standardised' and (pardon the phrase)
'competitionised' forms of the art. But that's only a speculative
hypothesis and a *potential* state of affairs.
With best wishes from Singapore
Phil
Eric Bovelander <er...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
<35311A...@xs4all.nl>...
> SALAM PERGURUAN :
>
> My name is Eric Bovelander,
>
> I like to coment a little on the items that are writen down about Pencak
> Silat.
>
> Let me introduce myself first :
>
> I'm the chief instructor and representative (Pembawa Aliran) off the
> Dutch branch
> of Perguruan P.S. Padjadjaran. Our headoffice (pusat) is in Bogor
> Indonesia.
> Also I'm boardmember in the Dutch National Pancak Silat Organisation
> (NPSB).
> Besides that I'm International Referee in Pencak Silat Olah Raga and
> Pencak Silat Seni.
>
> I like to comment on some names and items you all use :
>
> Pukulan means just :
> Hitting or punching (the Dutch Indies people made this word to an "art")
>
Chas
I have been writing a glossary of martial arts terms from our art for
some years now. It draws from sources of Bahasa, Bugis, Batak, Badui,
Maccasserese, Chinese, Sundanese and so on. For a couple of my teachers,
English is a fifth language- and no martial arts training was conducted
in that language. They don't (for my purposes) differentiate between
which language is which very much, so I have a very selective audience
to whom I write (until now- on the net).
I have always solicited assistance (help, please)) from anyone. The
responses that I have had, have been tinged with all sorts of agendas.
It is no wonder that this place generated the most formidable fighting
arts in the world; these people are downright squabbly :-)
I am open to any criticism of my scholarly application or my martial
art. I have only what I have- if I had more, I'd be older.
Selemat pada tua
Chas
boy I hope that means 'best wishes to all'
musakti
Chas <gryp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<6gu63e$8...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
> As I understand it, the 'tongkat' is a particular kind of stick- a
> laminated, hook ended burden bearing stick. Maha Guru Victor took the
> name to mean the 'carrier of the knowledge of Serak'- the full name of
> the system would be Pukulan Pentjak Silat Kilap Tongkat.
> In fact, the bow from the first djuru consists of 'rolling the stick (to
> free the hooks), dumping the load off of one side and using the weight
> of the other burdent to drive the stick in speed.
Well, I don't want to sound like a language police ;-) but I'll venture my
opinion anyway.
In everyday modern Bahasa Indonesia tongkat is (any kind of) stick. The
hook ended that you mentioned (walking cane??) may be more apt to be termed
'tekken', in Sundanese and Javanese dialects. Or perhaps you meant the
stick that is used by traditional roving traders to carry their wares. In
this case, I think the popular term (again borrowed from Javanese-Sundanese
dialects) is 'pikulan'.
Of course I am sure that anyone on the receiving end of your stick would
not care less about the term ;-)
DIHAPUS
> The Dutch never did come as agressors; they came and traded and did
> business. They married into the indigenous peoples and adjusted to the
> culture. There were such tremendous feuds, wars, hereditary grudges and
> so on between the various (estimates range from 1500 to 3500) separate
> cultures/peoples/tribes, that the Dutch and the Muslims were cohesive
> elements.
> Agression against the Indonesians has never been particularly successful
> by anyone; get along with them or go away. It's still that way.
Beg to differ, but I think this proves that history is indeed in the eye of
the beholder.
The way my history teacher taught me from primary school is that the Dutch
(and other Europeans) came initially to trade (1602 is often cited as
milestone, when the Dutch East India Company is found). But the trade
method is less than desirable ie. clove monopoly (which we Indonesian
unfortunately imitate until 2 weeks ago when the IMF insist that it is
dismantled), setting up favorable sultans often at the expense of the
'rightful heir' and outright use of force.
Then, if I'm not mistaken in the 19th century? the East Indian Company went
bankrupt and the Indonesian archipelago is under the direct control of the
sovereign of Holland. I think it is colonialism and perhaps agression as
well.
As for assimilation , as I understand it, the colonials devised a scheme
to separate the people according to their heredity: the Europeans, the
Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, Indians) and the Indigeous
(Pribumi-inlander) each with separate rights and treatments (ie. no
indigeous is ever allowed to ride in a first class train or attend the
European school). I always suspect that the south African apartheids learn
directly from this practice. So my point is that the Europeans have very
little incentive to mix with the pribumi except when they take a local
concubines (nyai) and many 'half breed' (Indo) is descended from such
union. Many books I read mention that the 'indos' are socially lower than a
European 'purebred' but still is way above the pribumis.
I also like to mention an old history book photograph that my teachers
often showed us in order to illustrate the plight of the pribumi. It shows
a public swimming pool in Bandung (?) with large warning at the entrance
said something like "No inlander or dog is allowed inside".
I'm writing it not out of bitterness or anything. After all its a thing of
the past. Just like I said, history is in the eye of the
beholder...........
Apologize for not being MA related
DELETED
> I'm up- first pitchers' on me ;-)
> Eric gets to choose the beer- he seems the connoisseur
I don't drink beer, but I will opt for a glass of coke instead ;-)
DELETED
> > >Not to mention other socalled specialists who are calling themself
> > >Pendekar or whatever
>
> Just for an understanding from a knowledgeable man such as yourself;
> define 'pendekar', please. As I don't know anyone who calls *himself* a
> 'pendekar', but only as are named that by someone else, I have heard it
> defined about three ways now.
Agreed, pendekar in a silat means different things for different people,
school, area etc.
My apology for a long winded answer that may have no
substances.............
Salam
Oki
Chas
musakti wrote: (snipped a very informative post)
> My apology for a long winded answer that may have no
> substances.............
>
> Salam
> Oki
The stick that we speak of is the third that you mention- a deliberate
burden bearing stick- laminate with small notches on the end to hold the
lines.
It is not for me to say anymore than the history told to me which is
written by the men I trust; to do less would be to be ungrateful.
Again, as always- thank you for your assistance and graciousness.
Chas
I was kidding about the beer- I'll join you in a black pop.