Chung Moo Doe is Chung Moo Quan
David J Wingrove
down to the Chung Moo Doe dojo nearby for the free lesson, and they gave
me a lot of propaganda. They never say the name John C. Kim in the
propaganda, but they constantly refer to him as Chong Su Nim "Iron" Kim
(tm). Chong Su Nim, they later say, is a title given to Iron Kim for
being the "Uncontested Champion of All Asia" as stated in the previous
post. Every bit of information about John C. Kim and Chong Su Nim
"Iron" Kim (tm) lines up, right down to when he came to the U.S. so I
assume they are the same person.
The art is definately genuine, or at least the instructor was highly
competant. Of course, I'd expect any 4th dan black belt to kick ass.
However, he said that black belt could be achieved in 2-4 years, which I
consider astonishingly short. Also, the prices between the Chung Moo
Doe school and the prices published in the Chung Moo Quan article do not
line up at all. The instructor I talked to said that the blackbelt
program is around $150 per month, and the price starts off at $55 per
month, but this could just be what they tell prospective students.
It is possible that the schools cleaned up their act, and that would
account for the name change of the art and the hiding of the real name
of John C. Kim.
It is also possible that the schools changed the name only to hide the
fact that they are the school that came into bad press previously.
It is also possible that the article posted is a personal vendetta by
the poster. I know no information about him or his reasons.
Needless to say, I am now highly credulous about this school. I can't
find any information on it whatsoever outside of the propaganda that was
given to me. Please send me what you know about the art itself or the
schools in the U.S.
Rob Shouse
>
>
>> Needless to say, I am now highly credulous about this school.
>>I can't find any information on it whatsoever outside of the
>>propaganda that was given to me. Please send me what you know
>>about the art itself or the schools in the U.S.
>
>recent accusations of the organization.
as is:
physically damaging teaching practices.
false advertising about teaching the three ultimte forms
known to man.
indictments of deliberate tax evasion.
top instructors moving from state to state when they get in
legal trouble.
top cmq officials claiming that bruce lee was killed by a
cmq seventh degree from asia with "injure with out touch".
the cmq organization claiming in the 1980s that all students
were registered in asia when they weren't.
NO CMQ PRACTIONER/APOLOGIST HAS ANY EVIDENCE THAT THEIR ART
EXISTED BEFORE THE 1950s.
David Rogers
> Needless to say, I am now highly credulous about this school. I can't
> find any information on it whatsoever outside of the propaganda that was
> given to me. Please send me what you know about the art itself or the
> schools in the U.S.
David,
Chung Moo Doe and Chung Moo Quan are indeed the same entity. John C. Kim
and "Iron" Kim are one and the same. Three of the four CMD shools in the
Houston area changed their names and disassociated themselves from the CMD
organization when the scandal first came to light. The fourth school went
out of business. The owners of the three schools that changed names are
all honest, well qualified instructors. They were shocked and dismayed
when the scandal was revealed. In fact, they had started the process of
pulling away prior to the scandal because of what they considered harsh
and unfair business practices of the parent organization.
Sadly, the art is suffering from the alleged corruption. It is like you
say a valid fighting style. I practiced for three years and found it to be
challenging and extremely beneficial. Unfortunately, it became cost
prohibitive for me to continue. The price structure is one of the
underlying factors in the recent accusations of the organization.
Good Luck and Merry Christmas,
David Rogers
--
As breathing is my life, I dare not dare to stop.-John Lennon
Mitch Brink
>Needless to say, I am now highly credulous about this school. I can't
>find any information on it whatsoever outside of the propaganda that was
>given to me. Please send me what you know about the art itself or the
>schools in the U.S.
DO NOT BE FOOLED! I just quit Chung Moo Doe after 1 1/2 years. It is
a cult. I am ashamed to have ever allowed myself to be ripped off
like this, but at least I got out. I watched decent people turn into
mindless zombies.
Chung Moo Doe advertises $55 per month. This is for their "basic
course". For $55/month, they teach you punch-kick for about 3 months,
and then tell you that's all you'll get in the basic course. What
they push is the "2 year black belt program". The 2 year program is
broken up into three 8-month tri-mesters at $1700 per tri-mester.
This requires a hefty down payment, and then a monthly payment of at
least $100. Test fees start at about $50, then shoot up. I was a
fifth section (the belt system goes white, then 1st through 6th
section, then 1st degree black). My 5th section test fee was over
$150 dollars.
In addition, they hold frequent "special classes." These classes are
not manditory, but if you don't pay the $200 for the 2 hour special
class, you will be ostricized by your instructors for not being
"serious."
Classes often consisted of working out to total exhaustion, which I
have no problem with. However, once you're tired and your mind is
weak, the instructors launch into lengthy lectures about how Chung Moo
Doe develops your health, and that's more important than anything. We
were told that Chung Moo Doe is more important than family or career,
because without perfect health, these other things could not be
enjoyed.
Whenever I asked questions regarding the lineage of the art itself, I
was given vague answers. It was obvious the instructors didn't know
or care.
Everyone is urged to enter an instructor's training course. I did
not, but my friends did. It consisted of 2 evenings of exercise (not
martial arts). The instructors worked the students through 2 hours of
push-ups, running, etc. for 2 hours each night. For this the students
paid $750 each. This was to "see if you have what it takes to be an
instructor."
When I left, the school had just introduced a new instructor from
Philly. Lo and behold, his name appears in the latest list of
indictments.
Chung Moo Doe's excuse for not participating in tournaments is "the
art is much too dangerous - no one could ever compete with us."
Stay away. I am very relieved to have escaped. I also make good
money, as does my wife, so the financial burden was not too great.
However, the 2 year program, including special classes, can run nearly
$8000 !!!! If anyone out there thinks a person deserves a black belt
after 2 years, I'll eat my belt. I watched single guys (the target
group of CMD) pay EVERYTHING THEY HAD just to go to this "school."
I am an engineer, and I work alot of hours. One time when the
instructor was trying to persuade me to go to a "special class," and I
told him I didn't have the cash this month, he said, "Well, if you
can't go out and get a second job, then I guess you're not hungry
enough, and maybe I'll start teaching the lower belts more moves than
you."
One last thing, the instructors WORSHIP Chong Su Nim "Iron" Kim. They
talk about him as if he is Jesus Christ. It is scary and ridiculous.
They tell myths about his abilities. Chong Su Nim went into the
mountains when he was 7 years old and lived by himself. He trained 24
hours a day just to keep warm. He caught rabbits with his bare hands.
He can hold T-position for 24 hours without even sweating. He has
beaten everyone in the world.
I hope anyone considering CMD will think twice. Research it, and you
will see it's not a real martial art, just a church of crap.
Steve Weigand
David Rogers <dro...@icsi.net> wrote:
>
>Three of the four CMD shools in the
>Houston area changed their names and disassociated themselves from the CMD
>organization when the scandal first came to light. The fourth school went
>out of business.
What are the names of the schools now? And what are the names of the
teachers? I'll be moving to Houston very soon (2 weeks). When I was
visiting there recently, I saw a Yellow Pages advertisement for one
of these schools which was titled, "Kung Fu", or something like that.
They were really playing up their Wushu and Bagua. I started saying to
myself, "Oh cool, that's a school I'm gonna have to look at when I get
down there." But then I saw the fine print, "(Formerly known as
Chung Moo Doe.)" That pretty much killed that idea. What are the names
of the other schools, so I know what to look out for?
Thanks,
- Steve Weigand
(wei...@marlin.ssnet.com)
RickSBD
writes:
>What are the names of the schools now? And what are the names of the
>teachers? I'll be moving to Houston very soon (2 weeks).
One of the schools that was formerly CMD is now "Champion Martial Arts."
In all fairness, although I haven't heard many good things about CMD
_technique_, the owner/instructor doesn't seem like the cult-zombie that
sounds typical of CMD groupies. He has a background in wrestling and is
currently studying Shin-Shin Jiu-Jitsu and is teaching some grappling
stuff.
David Rogers
> In article <drogers-1612...@ppp028-hou-tx.icsi.net>,
> David Rogers <dro...@icsi.net> wrote:
> >
> >Three of the four CMD shools in the
> >Houston area changed their names and disassociated themselves from the CMD
> >organization when the scandal first came to light. The fourth school went
> >out of business.
>
> What are the names of the schools now? And what are the names of the
> teachers? I'll be moving to Houston very soon (2 weeks).
Steve,
Sorry, I only know two of the school names: "Champions Martial Arts" and
"Martial Art Training Academy". They are both located in North Houston on
FM 1960. The other school is on Westheimer.
What style do you practice and have you ever practiced CMD?
I sincerely hope you are happy about moving here. I am a native Houstonian
(my children are fifth generation Houstonians) and I feel lucky to have
been born in my favorite city. Drop me a line when you get here, I love to
discuss martial art.
Merry Christmas,
David
Mitch Brink
instructors tried to contact me. Luckily, I've moved and have an
unlisted number, but he did call my former place of employment.
I will not be posting anything further, since it is obvious one of the
Pittsburgh students passed my article on to the instructors. And,
YES, I AM AFRAID OF THEM.
Anyone else who would like info please contact me through e-mail.
Jason Levy
dro...@icsi.net says...
I went to the one in Houston for one month when I lived there. This was
before I ever heard anything about the cult issue. I didn't like the
pressure to join the black belt program. I didn't like the fact the that
the monthly (non-black belt program) students had to practice in a back room
with only a 1st degree black belt as an instructor, while the black belt
students were in the main room with the head instructor. White belt students
who were in the black belt program were exposed to all kinds of techniques,
while monthly students who were at the same level were only taught a very
limited set of techniques.
I didn't really hang out long enough to know if this place was into the cult
aspect - the worshipping of John C. Kim, but I did hear a lot of crap about
his super-human abilities. Also, when I tried to find out more about the
history of the CMD, the instructors and the material were all very vague.
They did say that CMD is something like 1500 years old - kind of surprising
that the CMD'ers and John C. Kim seem to be the only ones who know or believe
this.
I don't know how the Westheimer school is now that they have disassociated
themselves with the parent organization of CMD, but I have to believe that
some of the things that made going to that school awkward must still be there
- the demeanor of the instructors/owners made me very uncomfortable and
skeptical. My basis for comparison was the TKD Master that I had in Dallas
prior to moving to Houston (I tried CMD just to try something different). By
the way, since I left Houston after 3 months, and returned to Dallas, I did
return to my old Master and his Chung Do Kwan TKD school.
This is just MHO, but I really would avoid that place like the plague.
Actually, I've been told about a very good TKD school in Houston (I found
this out after I moved, unfortunately). I don't know the name of the school,
but the Master's name is Kim Soo - apparently he's very well known, and you
shouldn't have trouble finding his school if you're interested.
Hope this helps...
Jason
Rob Shouse
>
>As soon as I posted my article exposing CMD last week, one of my
>old instructors tried to contact me. Luckily, I've moved and
>have an unlisted number, but he did call my former place of
>employment.
this sick tiger of an organization just can't change it's
stripes. posts i made while at work were copied and sent to my
employer from cmqists NATIONWIDE. several dozen letters were
sent all pretty much scripted. so much so that people from
different coasts mis-spelled my supervisors name the same way.
>I will not be posting anything further, since it is obvious one
>of the Pittsburgh students passed my article on to the
>instructors. And, YES, I AM AFRAID OF THEM.
the cmq organization has no power outside of it's contracts or
classrooms. the only pressure you feel is in your mind.
instructors/students aren't nearly as strong or fast as they
claim.
mike mckay even suggested that he would fix my "personal
problems" when he passed through illinois. albeit with an open
letter on the net. the people in charge of this organization
don't have what it takes to confront people who expose them for
what they are.
their version of "true marial arts" is based upon deception and
chameleon like tactics. decieve, change; and then decieve
again. from a claimed master of all asia; who isn't, to teaching a
1500 year old martial art; which they don't. now that these
aspects of their business have been exposed they claim to be
dis-associated with mr. i-need-a-new-alias kim. which kinda
leaves the cmq organization in a catch 22:
if mr. kim is in fact a criminal and no longer
leading those schools, where are the "good instructors"
getting their "exercises" from?
how is one to know if one is receiving "correct"
forms?
which part of the "true, right, correct" training
philosophy, which helps mr. kim live a long and
happy life, made mr. kim unable to keep his spouse
with him?
if mr. kim was deceptive in business practices,
for which the irs has indicted him; why should
anyone practice his version of martial arts?
all that he seems to teach people who are involved with him for
long periods of time is how to avoid paying taxes and move from
state to state when in legal trouble and make an idle threat from time
to time.
PHSnews
the IRS? I studied CMD for two years and enjoyed it. While it certainly
had its cult like aspects, it seemed pretty harmless. Expensive but
harmless. However, I am kind of surprised that John C. Kim would be
stupid enough to try to avoid taxes and am a little reluctant to believe
it right away. I've been listening to CMD's information for two years
afterall, so maybe I am a already corrputed. Finally, if anyone has
experience with both CMD and some other styles it would be great to hear
it. Most of the defending I see is from CMD students/instructors and most
of the blasting is from people who have either never set foot in a school
or left feeling disgruntled. Some more objective postings would be great.
Finally, anyone who has seen the National Instructors move would be hard
pressed to call CMD a joke. Perhaps there are better ways to reach the
level of profeciency these guys have, but they can certainly move and
believe it or not outside the classroom itself National Instructor Jerry
at least seems like a real nice, normal guy. Not a high priest of the
Kim Cult. Look forward to reading more. Thanks.
Rob Shouse
writes:
>Can someone tell me the date the John C. Kim was supposedly
>indicted by the IRS? I studied CMD for two years and enjoyed
>it. While it certainly had its cult like aspects, it seemed
>pretty harmless. Expensive but harmless.
that pretty much sums up the self-defense applications:
expensive and harmless.
>However, I am kind of surprised that John C. Kim would be stupid
>enough to try to avoid taxes and am a little reluctant to
>believe it right away.
one would think that mr. kim wouldn't be stupid enough to:
claim he's been the champion of all asia
without any evidence.
claim that he teaches a 1500 year old line of
royal martial arts without any evidence.
those things happened. mr. kim being indicted for tax fraud
has also happened.
>I've been listening to CMD's information for two years afterall,
>so maybe I am a already corrputed. Finally, if anyone has
>experience with both CMD and some other styles it would be great
>to hear it. Most of the defending I see is from CMD
>students/instructors and most of the blasting is from people who
>have either never set foot in a school or left feeling
>disgruntled. Some more objective postings would be great.
i guess by objective you mean pro-cmq. it's pretty difficult
to be objective about a martial art that's based upon
mis-information.
interesting... you forgot the strange coincidnces of:
individuals who post and try to be "objective"
don't include their names.
to be more precise, most of the defending comes from
people who have a financial interest in cmq or
scripted replies.
cmq styles look like they've been copied from other schools
with any of the underpinning philosophy removed. 9 times
out of 10 the "instructors" have no clue as to what their
teaching comes from and what the "movements" are really supposed
to be doing. not to mention the corrections of "movement" that
become so convoluted that "instructors" end up saying:
"...i don't know why it's done that way, but if
a higher belt said so, then do it..."
>Finally, anyone who has seen the National Instructors move would
>be hard pressed to call CMD a joke. Perhaps there are better
>ways to reach the level of profeciency these guys have, but they
>can certainly move
seen them move and they're a joke. anyone looks fast when you're
not trying to defend yourself. in terms of accuracy in
demonstrations, national instructors are extremely lucky to be
anywhere near accurate at their supposed blinding speeds.
if you want to talk about speed go to mainland china and watch
"real" pakua practioners "move".
>and believe it or not outside the classroom itself National
>Instructor Jerry at least seems like a real nice, normal guy.
>Not a high priest of the Kim Cult.
gee is this the same national instructor jerry that threatens
people over the net claiming that he has the strength of ten
men?
another example of a "true martial art" in action...
larry hotchkiss
>>I've been listening to CMD's information for two years afterall,
>>so maybe I am a already corrputed. Finally, if anyone has
>>experience with both CMD and some other styles it would be great
>>to hear it. Most of the defending I see is from CMD
>>students/instructors and most of the blasting is from people who
>>have either never set foot in a school or left feeling
>>disgruntled. Some more objective postings would be great.
>
>i guess by objective you mean pro-cmq. it's pretty difficult
>to be objective about a martial art that's based upon
>mis-information.
>
>interesting... you forgot the strange coincidnces of:
>
> individuals who post and try to be "objective"
> don't include their names.
>
> to be more precise, most of the defending comes from
> people who have a financial interest in cmq or
> scripted replies.
>
>cmq styles look like they've been copied from other schools
>with any of the underpinning philosophy removed. 9 times
>out of 10 the "instructors" have no clue as to what their
>teaching comes from and what the "movements" are really supposed
>to be doing. not to mention the corrections of "movement" that
>become so convoluted that "instructors" end up saying:
>
I currently study under an X instructor of CMQ. He is an honest and
caring man who has devoted much of his life to martial arts. He is very
knowledgable and humble. He does not call it CMQ but states that multiple
styles are combined in training. It is very unfortunate for the whole
martial art community that certian individuals and schools take advantage
of people but that does not necessarily mean all instructors/styles from
one of these schools are corrupt and full of s**t. I actually know very
little about the history of this corruption that ocurred in CMQ and I
could really care less, I found a man who is worthy of being my teacher
and I am happy in my studies. I find that the southern praying mantis I
studied previously compliments and works in well with my new studies.
Please don't let dishonesty sway you toward the belief that evryone
involved is corrupt or not qualified.
I am not trying to defend CMQ or its previous and maybe even current
actions. I am just trying to point at that there were and probably still
are some very good people stuck up in the system. HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Rob Shouse
if mr. kim would have stated that when he first started
this cmq mess then there wouldn't be an issue here.
how can any x-cmq instructor teach knowing that the
fundamental underpinnings to their "art" are based upon
lies?
how does this x-instructor know if what he is
teaching is dangerous to an individuals health or
not?
at what point has this individual decided he knows
what's best to teach?
what gives him the qualifications to decide if what
he's teaching is really "true martial arts"?
>It is very unfortunate for the whole martial art community that
>certian individuals and schools take advantage of people but
>that does not necessarily mean all instructors/styles from one
>of these schools are corrupt and full of s**t.
those certain individuals being the one who
apparantly invented cmq and the students who
occupy the highest positions in the cmq
organization.
this dead fish stinks from the head down...
>I actually know very little about the history of this corruption
>that ocurred in CMQ and I could really care less,
that's the sort of philosophy that causes wallets
to empty at an exceptional rate. especially when
bombarded by monthly "special" classes, outrageous
monthly fees, and ridiculous promotion fees.
all of which mr. kim and his highest belts feel
isn't necessary to report as income.
cmq "true martial arts training" at its best...
>I found a man who is worthy of being my teacher and I am happy
>in my studies. I find that the southern praying mantis I studied
>previously compliments and works in well with my new studies.
>Please don't let dishonesty sway you toward the belief that
>evryone involved is corrupt or not qualified.
what qualifications does a cmq instructor have to
teach what is claimed to be "true martial arts"?
none...
why should one throw their money away by giving it
to the cmq organization? it would be cheaper to
take the 8 martial arts it claims to teach
individually.
> I am not trying to defend CMQ or its previous and maybe even
>current actions. I am just trying to point at that there were
>and probably still are some very good people stuck up in the
>system.
if they realize mr. kim was never the champion of
all asia, there teaching is based uupon deception,
and have no clue as to what their actually showing
people; why are they still there?
could it be.... $MONEY$
larry hotchkiss
"true martial arts", I am not familiar with all the hype about CMQ you
seem to be familiar with. He simply teaches practical self defense
techiques derived from diferent styles. Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Chin-na,
Aikido, etc.
>>It is very unfortunate for the whole martial art community that
>>certian individuals and schools take advantage of people but
>>that does not necessarily mean all instructors/styles from one
>>of these schools are corrupt and full of s**t.
>
> those certain individuals being the one who
> apparantly invented cmq and the students who
> occupy the highest positions in the cmq
> organization.
>
> this dead fish stinks from the head down...
>
>>I actually know very little about the history of this corruption
>>that ocurred in CMQ and I could really care less,
>
> that's the sort of philosophy that causes wallets
> to empty at an exceptional rate. especially when
> bombarded by monthly "special" classes, outrageous
> monthly fees, and ridiculous promotion fees.
>
> all of which mr. kim and his highest belts feel
> isn't necessary to report as income.
>
> cmq "true martial arts training" at its best...
There you go making assumptions again, is $60 a month for the ability
to train 6 days a week too expensive. And those monthly special
classes.....I havn't heard about one of them yet. Maybe my money is no
good. Oh, and I'll have to make sure I get a copy of my
contract.....thats going to be tough though, since there isn't one.
>>I found a man who is worthy of being my teacher and I am happy
>>in my studies. I find that the southern praying mantis I studied
>>previously compliments and works in well with my new studies.
>>Please don't let dishonesty sway you toward the belief that
>>evryone involved is corrupt or not qualified.
>
> what qualifications does a cmq instructor have to
> teach what is claimed to be "true martial arts"?
> none...
>
> why should one throw their money away by giving it
> to the cmq organization? it would be cheaper to
> take the 8 martial arts it claims to teach
> individually.
>
As I said, he is an X instructor and has been for many years. And
as far as qualifications go.....who is to say anyone is qualified to
teach anything. Are you qualified to pass the judgements you are passing
on people and schools you know nothing about?
>> I am not trying to defend CMQ or its previous and maybe even
>>current actions. I am just trying to point at that there were
>>and probably still are some very good people stuck up in the
>>system.
>
> if they realize mr. kim was never the champion of
> all asia, there teaching is based uupon deception,
> and have no clue as to what their actually showing
> people; why are they still there?
>
> could it be.... $MONEY$
Have you studied CMQ? You seem very hostile. Do you think
it would be possible for an instructor of CMQ to get caught up in the
system like many of its students supposedly did? Has it ever ocurred to
you that they may be getting the same kind of treatment many of the
students reported getting? People do make mistakes (at least I do),maybe
your one of the special ones who don't, but I am willing to give my
instructor the benifit of the doubt and a second chance. He does not fit
the stereotype you have set forth and it feels like we are posting to
different messages. I have never heard any of the hype you have stated at
my school, but If I had I suppose I would have much the same doubt you
do.
This really isn't worth arguing about. You seem stuck on slamming my
school for all the hype created by a CMQ. I simply wanted to point out
that "a bad deed does not neccesarilly make a bad man". I wanted to
dispel the stereotype you have so neatly created and thrown all current
and ex CMQ practitioners and instructors into. Have a HAPPY HOLIDAY!
Rob Shouse
then how does your "instructor" translate the symbols
that appear above his school?
sounds like he grabbed a bunch of techniques and has
made his own home cooked brew of self-defense
techniques.
and you actually pay for this?
>>>It is very unfortunate for the whole martial art community that
>>>certian individuals and schools take advantage of people but
>>>that does not necessarily mean all instructors/styles from one
>>>of these schools are corrupt and full of s**t.
>>
>> those certain individuals being the one who
>> apparantly invented cmq and the students who
>> occupy the highest positions in the cmq
>> organization.
>>
>> this dead fish stinks from the head down...
>>
>>>I actually know very little about the history of this corruption
>>>that ocurred in CMQ and I could really care less,
>>
>> that's the sort of philosophy that causes wallets
>> to empty at an exceptional rate. especially when
>> bombarded by monthly "special" classes, outrageous
>> monthly fees, and ridiculous promotion fees.
>>
>> all of which mr. kim and his highest belts feel
>> isn't necessary to report as income.
>>
>> cmq "true martial arts training" at its best...
>
> There you go making assumptions again, is $60 a month for the
ability
>to train 6 days a week too expensive. And those monthly special
>classes.....I havn't heard about one of them yet. Maybe my money is no
>good. Oh, and I'll have to make sure I get a copy of my
>contract.....thats going to be tough though, since there isn't one.
how nice... in illinois the cmq schools are charging
upwards of $2400.00 for the "black belt" program, asking
for 1/3 up front.
your assumption that i was talking about you is wrong.
no contract, money on the side, hmmm... sounds like
what mr. kim and his top "instructors" have already
been indicted for...
>>>I found a man who is worthy of being my teacher and I am happy
>>>in my studies. I find that the southern praying mantis I studied
>>>previously compliments and works in well with my new studies.
>>>Please don't let dishonesty sway you toward the belief that
>>>evryone involved is corrupt or not qualified.
>>
>> what qualifications does a cmq instructor have to
>> teach what is claimed to be "true martial arts"?
>> none...
>>
>> why should one throw their money away by giving it
>> to the cmq organization? it would be cheaper to
>> take the 8 martial arts it claims to teach
>> individually.
>>
> As I said, he is an X instructor and has been for many years. And
>as far as qualifications go.....who is to say anyone is qualified to
>teach anything. Are you qualified to pass the judgements you are
passing
>on people and schools you know nothing about?
remember that the next time you have to go to the hospital
or require the services of anybody who has a skill.
am i qualified to pass judgement: yes. having spent several
years and several thousand dollars for cmq training i can
say, without hesitation, that cmq training is a complete
waist of time.
compared to the other martial arts that cmq "borrows" from,
cmq is completely gutless.
having listened to the bs stories spooned out by tom mcgee,
john liska, and mike mckay i can say, without hesitation,
that they are very poor martial art instructors who
care more about money than anything else as evidenced by
their continually "hitting" people up for lesson payments,
gifts, and favors.
>
>>> I am not trying to defend CMQ or its previous and maybe even
>>>current actions. I am just trying to point at that there were
>>>and probably still are some very good people stuck up in the
>>>system.
>>
>> if they realize mr. kim was never the champion of
>> all asia, there teaching is based uupon deception,
>> and have no clue as to what their actually showing
>> people; why are they still there?
>>
>> could it be.... $MONEY$
>
> Have you studied CMQ? You seem very hostile. Do you think
>it would be possible for an instructor of CMQ to get caught up in the
>system like many of its students supposedly did? Has it ever ocurred to
>you that they may be getting the same kind of treatment many of the
>students reported getting?
that doesn't make it right to abuse individuals because
you've been abused. there's no excuse for taking people's
money on false pretenses.
>People do make mistakes (at least I do),maybe your one of the special
>ones who don't,
there's a difference in making a mistake and perpetuating one.
mr. kim made a mistake by thinking he could fool the american
public with his scheme and the irs by not reporting taxes.
cmq instructors who say they've broken away from mr. kim but
still teach his "philosophy" and "martial arts", are
perpetuating the mistake that encompasses the agglomeration
of "movemet" and deception that is cmq/cmd
>but I am willing to give my
>instructor the benifit of the doubt and a second chance. He does not
>fit the stereotype you have set forth and it feels like we are posting
>to different messages. I have never heard any of the hype you have
>stated at my school, but If I had I suppose I would have much the same
>doubt you do.
but you have. national instructor jerry has made his
presence known on the net. and he does personify the
stereotype you've percieved i've described.
> This really isn't worth arguing about. You seem stuck on slamming
>my school for all the hype created by a CMQ. I simply wanted to point
>out that "a bad deed does not neccesarilly make a bad man". I wanted
to >dispel the stereotype you have so neatly created and thrown all
current >and ex CMQ practitioners and instructors into.
how many times must a man repeat a bad deed until he is
seen for what he really is? that's your call. you can
choose to see what you want and ignore everything else.
actually what you percieve as a stereotype embodies the
essence of cmq, unfortunately. the image that cmq is now
"ok" has been projected several times in the past to no
avail. your statements would hold more water if national
instructor jerry hadn't made his wild accusations, challenges
and claims...
it's a shame you've been involved with this organization for
the amount of time you have and don't know:
what the terms chung moo and quan come from, what they
mean and how poorly they're translated to fit the cmq
organization's ends.
where you're "movement" comes from and even worse
don't care; but strangely enough, care enough to
defend it's validity.
all the "interesting" comments national instructor
jerry has made on the net.
cmq is based upon mis-information
it didn't come from a 1500 year old lineage of royal
martial arts.
mr. kim was not the champion of all asia.
you choose to take the position that you've found an individual in this
organization that has overcome the above points, yet still teaches
things he knows very little about in regards to origin, effect, and
philosophical underpinnings. all this for cash and no contract.
the image of the self-portrait you've painted conflicts with what you're
saying it represents.
David Rogers
It is a decided waste of time to debate the validity of CMQ/CMD or the
talent and character of ex-CMD instructors with certain individuals in
this group. They, like apparently the majority of former CMQ/CMD students,
spent huge sums of money for the privelege of being abused by the CMD
organization and certain instructors. They are too emotionally involved to
converse objectively. So, it becomes pointless to argue with them. If what
they experienced is true, it is completely understandable that they feel
as they do , and are so relentlessly unforgiving. I would be too. I
wouldn't practice 5 minutes in a school that promoted the kind of behavior
that they describe.
I was lucky enough to practice CMD in Houston where the schools and
instructors happened to be civilized. They did charge extremely large sums
of money for the black belt programs and tests, at the behest of the
parent organization. That is the reason I left. These practices among
other things caused these schools to break with the franchise and become
independent, teaching under different names. This has caused them no small
amount of trouble with the CMD organization. These instructors are decent
hard working individuals and extremely talented martial artists. The
opinions in this regard, of people who don't know these instructors, are
irrelevant.
As to the CMD claims of a "1500 year old line" and Kim as the "all Asia
champion", perhaps that is a pack of lies. The art as I learned it is
still a strong art. The instructors I practiced under are still strong
martial artists. Of all the schools and styles that I have observed or
studied since then, as talented as the instructors are, in my opinion,
none of them could touch my former CMD instructors in a combat situation.
I applaud the continued endeavors of these former CMD instructors and am
happy that the fall-out from the CMD scandal hasn't diminished their
efforts.
Good luck in your practice and have a Merry christmas,
David rogers
larry hotchkiss
You have turned this into a pissing match of "my instructor is better
than yours and your school is no good". My instructor is NOT in "this"
organization as you have put it. And you know nothing about his
activities before, during and after CMQ yet you insist all people who got
sucked in are bad.
Okay I give in....your right...... since you spent thousands and
were part of the organization I have a hard time believing that you gave
it up...after all no one else could ever have been involved and be worthy
you must be as corrupt and brainwashed as all the rest.
As far as cash and no contracts go....I pay by check...and I even
get an invoice to remind me payment is due if I wish to continue my
studies. I suppose you got a big ol contract you paid big bucks for....is
there a cluase where you can take a couple months off for a car accident
where you were injured or couldn't continue to train? What about if the
school goes under, do you get a partial refund? Probably not...havn't
learned much from your last experience I guess.
I am done with this thread...think what you will...after all, we are
all entitled to our own opinions, and you definately have yours. If you
would like to continue this please respond by E-mail...I would honestly
like to hear your story with all the details...where you trained, how
much you paid etc.
Larry.
larry hotchkiss
>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>rec.martial-arts)
>
>Larry,
>It is a decided waste of time to debate the validity of CMQ/CMD or the
>talent and character of ex-CMD instructors with certain individuals in
>this group. They, like apparently the majority of former CMQ/CMD students,
>spent huge sums of money for the privelege of being abused by the CMD
>organization and certain instructors. They are too emotionally involved to
>converse objectively. So, it becomes pointless to argue with them. If what
>they experienced is true, it is completely understandable that they feel
>as they do , and are so relentlessly unforgiving. I would be too. I
>wouldn't practice 5 minutes in a school that promoted the kind of behavior
>that they describe.
>
It is nice to actually have someone understand the point I was
trying to make. My school has none of the hype related to CMQ and they
dont even call it CMQ. It is a shame schools like that exist but it is
nonetheless a reality. I was simply trying to point out that the
organization did have, and maybe still does, some individualls who are
very honest. I simply attempted (very poorly I guess) to get the fact
that instructors as well as students may have unwillingly got tangled up
in CMQ. I am not hoping to dispell the rumors/truths about the JC Kim
schools, simply trying to dispell the rumor that once a CMQ instructor
always a CMQ instructor.
As far as the style goes, I have not heard the mention of the CMQ
style in our school, only the systems/styles our movements are derived
from. I can sympathize with those who have been taken advantage of, and I
can understand their hatred. There are many people out there who have
worked very hard to get away from that stereotype and I don't think its
fair/right to throw them back in without knowing them or their schools.
Well, I will leave it at that. I wish the world were filled with more
people like you as apposed to the hatemongers who are constantly
bickering about one styles best and holding a grudge against many for the
actions of a few. Have a HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Larry
Rob Shouse
>better than yours and your school is no good". My instructor is
>NOT in "this" organization as you have put it. And you know
>nothing about his activities before, during and after CMQ yet
>you insist all people who got sucked in are bad.
he still uses the cmq affiliation and teaches those
movements. that's where his experience comes from.
and the organization he's recieved his qualifications
from has misrepresented itself with regards to it's
martial origins and it's "master's" accomplishments.
it's your decison to follow someone who's teaching
experience is based upon a core history that's
non-valid.
as far as comparisons go; cmq's version of it's
8 martial arts can't hold a candle to the original
styles. you've chosen to take this discussion to
the level of a cmq instructor being inferior to
instructors of "valid" styles... i agree.
> Okay I give in....your right...... since you spent
>thousands and were part of the organization I have a hard time
>believing that you gave it up...after all no one else could ever
>have been involved and be worthy you must be as corrupt and
>brainwashed as all the rest.
perhaps this will help correct your blatant error in
logical deduction.
i paid for lessons because i thought they had value.
after discovering that the cmq organization:
didn't register it's students in asia as it claimed.
complained when i refused to pay $500.00 a month for
olympic course lessons.
said i'd be walking dead if i left.
said i couldn't live my life because i wouldn't have
anywhere to turn to for "true direction."
had no clue as to what the symbols above their school
stood for and consistently mistranslated them.
was completely inferior regarding it's pakua teaching
methods, and everything else for that matter.
was pushing the story that bruce lee was killed by
a seventh degree from asia with injure without
touch.
claims to teach injure without touch.
claims to teach the three ultimate forms known to man.
tried to get me into an instructor course with a price
tag of $100,000.00
even though i'm probably going out on a limb here, we'll
assume you can see why i left.
> As far as cash and no contracts go....I pay by check...and
>I even get an invoice to remind me payment is due if I wish to
>continue my studies. I suppose you got a big ol contract you
>paid big bucks for....is there a cluase where you can take a
>couple months off for a car accident where you were injured or
>couldn't continue to train? What about if the school goes under, >do
you get a partial refund? Probably not...havn't learned much
>from your last experience I guess.
perhaps if you used more tense modifiers this would make
sense. obviously it's necessary to spell everything
out for you. regarding cmq i wasn't allowed a copy of my
contract, that was several years ago. my current training
doesn't involve money or contracts so your poor attempt
at character assasination does not apply.
Rob Shouse
<wc...@winternet.com> writes:
>
>At 08:30 AM 12/24/95 -0600, you wrote:
>>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following
newsgroups:
>>rec.martial-arts)
>>
>>Larry,
>>It is a decided waste of time to debate the validity of CMQ/CMD
>>or the talent and character of ex-CMD instructors with certain
>>individuals in this group. They, like apparently the majority
>>of former CMQ/CMD students, spent huge sums of money for the
>>privelege of being abused by the CMD organization and certain
>>instructors. They are too emotionally involved to converse
>>objectively.
interesting that the term objectively is used only
in the context of how good these new x-cmq schools are.
it's a shame the lens of objectivity isn't used by
"new cmq" students to evaluate where their movements
came from.
>>So, it becomes pointless to argue with them. If what they
>>experienced is true, it is completely understandable that they
>>feel as they do , and are so relentlessly unforgiving.
actually cmq apologists are as skilled in debate as they
are in martial application and understanding. i guess points
would have to be discussed before they were argued. as usual
though, cmq apologists just don't care where there martial
learning came from or what it's based upon. any discussion
of these issues demonstrates the total lack of credibility
that cmq training (old or "new and improved") has.
>>I would be too. I wouldn't practice 5 minutes in a school that
>>promoted the kind of behavior that they describe.
> It is nice to actually have someone understand the point I
>was trying to make. My school has none of the hype related to
>CMQ and they dont even call it CMQ. It is a shame schools like
>that exist but it is nonetheless a reality.
as is the reality that cmq training is less than fifty years
old and is being made up as time goes along.
>I was simply trying to point out that the organization did have,
>and maybe still does, some individualls who are very honest. I
>simply attempted (very poorly I guess) to get the fact that
>instructors as well as students may have unwillingly got tangled
>up in CMQ. I am not hoping to dispell the rumors/truths about
>the JC Kim schools, simply trying to dispell the rumor that once
>a CMQ instructor always a CMQ instructor.
what a lovely story. reminds me of when the cmq school out
here changed instructors and moved. "... those other
instructors were bad and shouldn't have done what they
did..." followed by the pitch for the $30,000.00 olympic
course fee and how bruce lee was killed by a 7th degree with
injure without touch.
fast forward to the early nineties. "...those other
instructors did what they had to do... we're different
..." followed by a pitch for a $2400.00 black-belt
program ($800.00 down) and "special" class fees every
month.
and now "...we're not affiliated with mr. kim anymore
(the prices are the same), we're not a cmq school...".
the moves, forms, and instruction methods ae the same.
the name's changed. it doesn't make this "new" style
any more valid historically than the "old" style. it's
still a poor agglomeration of moves from different
styles without the corresponding philosophical roots.
the self defense applications are poor at best and the
weapons "movements" are a joke.
>As far as the style goes, I have not heard the mention of the
>CMQ style in our school, only the systems/styles our movements
>are derived from. I can sympathize with those who have been
>taken advantage of, and I can understand their hatred. There are
>many people out there who have worked very hard to get away from
>that stereotype and I don't think its fair/right to throw them
>back in without knowing them or their schools. Well, I will
>leave it at that. I wish the world were filled with more people
>like you as apposed to the hatemongers who are constantly
>bickering about one styles best and holding a grudge against
>many for the actions of a few.
speaking off hate mongers maybe national instructor jerry
can give a couple of lessons. i like the way he claims
to have the strength of ten men... (NOT).
you seem to keep forgetting to comment about this current
"new" cmq icon's net comments. i'll repost them for you...
PHSnews
Can someone tell me the date the John C. Kim was supposedly indicted by
the IRS? I studied CMD for two years and enjoyed it. While it certainly
had its cult like aspects, it seemed pretty harmless. Expensive but
harmless. However, I am kind of surprised that John C. Kim would be
stupid enough to try to avoid taxes and am a little reluctant to believe
it right away. I've been listening to CMD's information for two years
afterall, so maybe I am a already corrputed. Finally, if anyone has
experience with both CMD and some other styles it would be great to hear
it. Most of the defending I see is from CMD students/instructors and most
of the blasting is from people who have either never set foot in a school
or left feeling disgruntled. Some more objective postings would be great.
Since then I have been blasted for being a CMD apologist (that terminology
is kind of frightening), a scripted debater, and some other things
primarily because I left my name off of my last posting. Woops. First
posting of my life, didn't know the rules. Paul Chapple.
Rob, man, you sound really pissed off. Me too, but more at myself than at
the school. As a reasonably intelligent adult I should have been able to
figure out that it was too much money - or at least find another school in
less than two years. I spent six grand on CMD training and quit when I
saw guys who couldn't defend themselves take and pass first degree tests.
Okay, my name is Paul Chapple and I quit. (Granted no one called me
walking dead which no doubt did not endear these people to you.)
By objective postings, I really did mean someone who could tell me, "I
took CMD and am now in a [fill in the blank] school and I know that CMD
doesn't work because of these specific reasons. I am admitting right up
front I don't have the basis to make a comparison. I am seriously looking
around at other schools/disciplines and I am trying to avoid the mistakes
I made last time. When I left the CMD school I was in great shape, six
grand poorer, and probably a little better able to defend myself. I know
I am looking for more than that. But all this anger seems counter
productive.
Also, I really would like to know when John Kim was indicted. Even if the
guy isn't a gifted martial artist and is just a con man, he is a helluva
con man. (I don't own a ranch in California and that six grand I spent
came hard.) Most good con men are smart enough not to get caught. I just
figured that if he was smart enough to fool me (and you) he wouldn't get
tripped up by the IRS. So, I guess my curiousity as to the date is: I
want to read the news accounts and say to myself, how could you be so
stupid? That's all. This isn't a clever way of casting doubt on whether
he was or wasn't indicted. If he was, I just want to know when.
Finally, I defended National Instructor Jerry in my only other posting. I
met the guy after one of those costly special lessons. He told a pretty
funny story after the class about being a punk kid and going into John
Kim's first school and being impressed by this little oriental guy who
could do things that he had never seen before. I related to the
experience and liked him. If he is currently also on the internet making
claims of having the strength of 10 men and issuing fight challenges,
that's too bad. He seemed normal. Of course, if someone accepts his
fight challenge I would like to see the fight. Like I said, I have no
basis for comparison and that would certainly provide one.
Julian Frost
> I am not hoping to dispell the rumors/truths about the JC Kim
> schools, simply trying to dispell the rumor that once a CMQ instructor
> always a CMQ instructor.
I am not, and have never been a student of CMQ/CMD, so I have no axe to
grind with regard to having once been "bitten" by CMD/CMQ. However, I
have seen numerous CMQ/CMD classes and was sent the promotional video of
the CMD National Instructor's Demonstration ("infront of 5,000
spectators"), and, having practised judo, Iaido and Aikido for a number
of years, I asked a few questions based on what I have learned from my
own teachers, and on the tapes and classes of CMD that I have seen. To
date, I have yet to receive ONE reply with the answers to my questions.
So please allow me to ask one question:
> As far as the style goes, I have not heard the mention of the CMQ
> style in our school, only the systems/styles our movements are derived
> from.
Given that John Kim's lineage has been a fabrication, and that he has
lied about his previous martial arts training, and that his students do
*not* do Aikido (as they claim), and do *not* do Iaido, Kendo, or
Kenjutsu (as they claim) and do *not* do Judo (as they claim), how is it
that an instructor in Chung Moo Doe, who leaves the organization because
of the political problems, but who continues to teach the movements and
techniques of Chung Moo Doe, is now teaching a "valid" art?
Julian
--
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( | INET: jfr...@eclectic.ss.uci.edu
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Brad Webb
Yet could they not learn from thier mistakes? Also you and I and some
others saw the promo tape, that doesn't mean that his instructor doesn't
teach better than that.
What they are trying to teach is still a young art, made from the
mind of a man, "who has not yet been able to site a recognized lineage".
And therefore, it is called by some a hoax. If the art is valid, give it
40+/- years.
My personal beef is the propaganda stuff.
Brad.
--
Brad Webb, reply to:erw...@rwasic33.aud.alcatel.com (mine bounces)
Japan Shotokan Dallas,TX. Nortel, Inc. (214)684-1737
(214) 231-4922 Me represent NT? I think not.
Seek perfection of character. Don't make them laugh so hard.
Jeff Frane
However, I am kind of surprised that John C. Kim would be
>stupid enough to try to avoid taxes and am a little reluctant to believe
>it right away.
The reality is that lots of people who are intelligent make a stab at
avoiding taxes. Sometimes (lots of times) they get away with it;
other times they get caught. Greed can screw up the brain something
fierce. As I recall, offhand, some big-time scammers lately (who got
caught) include Leona Helmsley and the Rev Sun Myung Moon, both of
whom were presumably fairly intelligent, both of whom had buckets of
money already and both of whom spent time in the slammer for tax
evasion.
--Jeff Frane
Jim Walters
: As soon as I posted my article exposing CMD last week, one of my old
: instructors tried to contact me. Luckily, I've moved and have an
: unlisted number, but he did call my former place of employment.
: I will not be posting anything further, since it is obvious one of the
: Pittsburgh students passed my article on to the instructors. And,
: YES, I AM AFRAID OF THEM.
If you are truly afraid that they will assault you simply for expressing
your opinion of them, then perhaps it is time you go to court and get a
restraining order against them.
--
Jim Walters
jwal...@clark.net "Putting the DOH! in Aikido"