Parker Kenpo vs. Tracy Kenpo

[Damien Martin]

I am interested in hearing anyone's opinions in regards to the
comparison of the Parker system of Kenpo and the Tracy system of Kenpo.
I have studied both systems for about 2 years each and have found major
differences between the two. They seem like night and day. I would like
to hear what your views are between the two styles if you have studied
both systems. I would also like to hear your views if you study Parker
Kenpo only or Tracy Kenpo only. I am interested in learning what others
have experienced in the two systems. I have other comments for the two
systems, but I will keep them to myself until I hear from others. Thank
you and I look forward to hearing from all of you out there in net land.

Yours in the M.A.,

Damien Martin

[FistlawUKS]

I have also studied both Parker's and Tracy's systems and I think Parker's
is much better. Tracy's system came from a more primitive version of Mr
Parker's (around 1960), as can be seen in Mr Parker's first book: "Kenpo
Karate, Law of the Fist and Empty Hand". The techniques don't have the
checking and the hidden moves in them. Since the Tracy brothers split, Mr
Parker formulated, revised, and organized his system into what is
documented in the Infinite Insights Into Kenpo series and what is
practiced today. Tracy's system is often referred to as "Retarded Kenpo"
because of it's lack of development since the split. Personally, I got
bored with Tracy's Kenpo after 3 years. There was nothing new to learn
after I reached 2nd degree brown.

Joseph Abello
United Kenpo Systems/Worldwide Kenpo Karate Association
Joseph Abello
United Kenpo Systems/Worldwide Kenpo Karate Association

[Gus Parera]

I am interested in learning what others
>have experienced in the two systems. I have other comments for the two

>systems, but I will keep them to myself until I hear from others. Thank

>you and I look forward to hearing from all of you out there in net land.

>
>Yours in the M.A.,
>
>Damien Martin

Damien I have also trained in both Primarily in the Old Old Tracy's as it
was in the mid 70's and Parkers.

While Mr. Parkers movements were shortend he incorporated more checks
which is good. Tracys leans more toward the power side. and has kept all
of the chinese influense, which Mr. Parker took out (Parker Was very
disapointed with the Chinese comunity after they did not accept him for
being polinesian. )

Over All they are both viable systems with much in common. I recognize
tech in Parkers system and say hey thats ....... example Lone Kimono and
Swinging Gate, Kimono grab. All same tech different angles.

I am interested in your feed back please respond.

Like I say I have trained with Both Mr. Parker and Mr. Tracy Although I
am 3 Dan under Mr. Tracy I have much respect for Mr. Parkers system.

Gus Parera a.k.a. The Cleaner, RCC...@prodigy.com
Tiger & Dragon Kenpo & Shootfighting
13774 South West 84th Street,
Miami, FL 33183-4017
(305) 388-5153

[Gus Parera]

Tracy's system is often referred to as "Retarded Kenpo"
>because of it's lack of development since the split. Personally, I
got
>bored with Tracy's Kenpo after 3 years. There was nothing new to learn
>after I reached 2nd degree brown.

Wasn't That a nice thing to say about fellow Kenpo stylist.

Well Maybe you should take a new look at Tracys We are evolving or is it
regressing for we are now reclaiming our ground work through
shootfighting. I say reclaiming since Mr. Parker did not think ground
work was nessesary enough to keep it in the "New and improved Kenpo
system".

Gee are the Graicies proving him wrong.

[Damien Martin]

Gus this is in response to both of your replys. First I would like to
address the ground fighting. I do know that you are located at the Bart
Vale studio and I do know that you are a Tracy Studio. I do not believe
you know enough about Parker kenpo to make any claims as to what it
offers or doenst offer. You may have visted an offshoot of the Tracy
system that claimed to be Parker kenpo, which I have seen a lot of. Mr
Parker researched ground fighting before many of todays martial artists.
He studied judo before he became a kenpo practitioner. He also taught
ground fighting principles to his upper students and had plans to
introduce this topic to the kenpo community at large, but unfortunately
he died before it came to fruition. Just a note: He also introduced the
Gracie's grandfather to the USA in the 60's or 70's, not sure of exact
date. He knew of the importance of ground fighting. Now back to the
comparison of Parker kenpo to Tracy kenpo. I have met Al Tracy at a few
seminars at my old studio in CT. I asked him about Parker and all I
heard was disrespectful bashing of his former instructor. Come on now,
you are upset that someone is bashing the Tracy system. Tracy put down
the man who showed him everything Tracy knows about kenpo. Lets show
some respect. Now I do have to say that I was a former instructor in the
Tracy system and began teaching when I was a purple belt. I believe that
a purple belt doesnt know enough to teach, but this is what the Tracy
system does in order to fill their shcools. This is very detrimental
because you have a lot of students who think they can defend themselves
when all they have is a false sense of security. I was thrown out
because I began to explore the Parker system. I was thrown at as a third
brown belt. I saw all of what the Tracy system offers including up to
the fifth black requirements. I can say that the Tracy system is void of
all the rules and principles of the Parker system. The Parker system is
a system of motion not a system of useless techniques that comprise of
the artistic side of the art that Tracy claims. I am no fool, believe me
I did extensive research in this matter. The Tracy system keeps
techniques based on tradition. Look at all the masters in the recent
past and you will see that each of them studied more than one art and
tried to improve. None of them wanted to regress. This seems to be the
case in Tracy kenpo. I even have video tapes of Tracy teaching kenpo and
of a couple of his seminars and he spends much time bashing Parker. He
bashes a system he does not fully understand because he relys on second
hand info. I have seen an ad for Tracy's new video, Tracy vs American
kenpo, see who has the watered down system. What a joke, I would like
to see what kenpo he used for the comparison. I can assure you it was
not the real Parker kenpo as practiced by only a few in the nation. I
say a few because Parker did not teach the real art to many because he
was very exclusive with who he taught. I have to say sadly that the
motivation may have been that Parker did not think that many of these
individuals were worthy. That is why many of the so called Parker
practitioners really dont look good. This may be where Tracy gets his
info because it surely isnt based on the real Parker system. I have
spent two years in the Parker system and now have a better command of my
motions than I ever had in the Tracy system.

Well enough for now till next time.

p.s.: ask Al Tracy if he still remembers kicking me out in CT
The best thing he ever did!!!!!!!

Damien Martin

[Damien Martin]

Thanks for the personal e-mail. Sorry I havent responded to it yet so
I'll respond here. I have to agree with you. Parker's system is a
system of motiion and once you learn all the rules and principles of
motion you have an infinite number of combinations at your disposal. Its
amazing at how you reinforce your retention by learning reverses and
opposits all over the system without have to do the same technique on the
other side because you already did in another technique. I also love the
fact that you have to find this out for yourself which forces you to
think about why you do something and not blindly accept something. Yes
the Tracy system is a dead art that is void of all these physics of
motion and many times uses motion that makes no sense at all and is not
practical. One other thing I loved finding out about was that the forms
were taught to reinforce these rules and were never intended to be
artistic for the sake of looking good. I live by this motto: He who
knows how will always remain the student, He who knows why will always
remain the instructor. Till next time, keep the responses coming.

Damien Martin

[Damien Martin]

Thanks for the personal e-mail was for fistlaw Mr. Abello. Sorry.

[Mark Dalen]

In <3kcgv4$1i...@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> RCC...@prodigy.com (Gus
Parera) writes:

>Well Maybe you should take a new look at Tracys We are evolving or is
it
>regressing for we are now reclaiming our ground work through
>shootfighting. I say reclaiming since Mr. Parker did not think ground
>work was nessesary enough to keep it in the "New and improved Kenpo
>system".
>
>Gee are the Graicies proving him wrong.
>
>
>Gus Parera a.k.a. The Cleaner, RCC...@prodigy.com
>Tiger & Dragon Kenpo & Shootfighting
>13774 South West 84th Street,
>Miami, FL 33183-4017
>(305) 388-5153
>
>

Mr. Parker developed a couple of interesting concepts. One is the
universal symbol, usually shown as a 2 dimensional view. In his
Infinite Insights Book, it is clear that this is actually a 3
dimensional model. Mr. Parker left many avenues for his students to
pursue, but made it very clear (to those that pay attention) that Kenpo
techniques that work standing up, also work on the ground, or even while
transitioning to the ground.

The limited emphasis on groundwork also follows the philosophy of Kenpo
and Black Dot Focus (I'll leave it to you to research this topic if you
don't know what it means). The American Kenpo practioner is always
aware of other possible threats. The inherent weakness in
groundfighting is that both parties tend to get tied up. I understand
that the Gracies have some views of this, but I am not really familiar
wiht how they handle multiple attackers. Ed Parker's Kenpo strikes the
opponent to the ground (as opposed to take downs) which should result in
only one party on the ground.

I have studied Ed Parker Kenpo for 3 years, and have recently started
working out with a Gracie practioner. I admire what they do, though I
don't see anything in thier system that is not also in Kenpo, if you
simply change the angle of execution.

I have never studied Tracy's Kenpo, but I know a number of folks who
have, and have moved to Ed Parker's Kenpo. All of those people report
that Ed Parker's system is more effective. I have never met anyone who
left the Ed Parker system for Tracy's system, so I'd be very interested
in comments from those who have studied both, especially if they went
from Parker to Tracy.

Mark Dalen
Ed Parker's Kenpo System
Ventura Kenpo

[FistlawUKS]

You're probably right. Maybe I'm looking at Tracy's Kenpo through the
eyes of one instructor's teachings. Sorry for the unfair judgement.

[Damien Martin]

I must also appologize to Gus for being rude. I have much anger towards
Al Tracy that should not have been vented toward Gus. I can only offer
my sincerest appologies. I dont mean to directly offend anyone. I can
only state my opinions based on my experiences. Which up to this point
they were not positive in the Tracy system. I dont believe that the
entire system is bad only that certain things in the system I disagree
with. Sorry again if I offended anyone.

Sincerely,

Damien Martin

[Halcyon Skinner]

In article <3kcgv4$1i...@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>, RCC...@prodigy.com
(Gus Parera) wrote:

> Tracy's system is often referred to as "Retarded Kenpo"
> >because of it's lack of development since the split. Personally, I
> got
> >bored with Tracy's Kenpo after 3 years. There was nothing new to learn
> >after I reached 2nd degree brown.
>
> Wasn't That a nice thing to say about fellow Kenpo stylist.
>
> Well Maybe you should take a new look at Tracys We are evolving or is it
> regressing for we are now reclaiming our ground work through
> shootfighting. I say reclaiming since Mr. Parker did not think ground
> work was nessesary enough to keep it in the "New and improved Kenpo
> system".
>
> Gee are the Graicies proving him wrong.
>

You ought to keep an eye on Ernie Verdecia in UFC V. One of his goals
for the competition is to promote the Apache system of Kenpo Karate.
Based on Parker's Kenpo, Apache Kenpo Karate integrates elements of
kickboxing, and shootfighting to round out the Parker system. It sounds
similar to what you are talking about, and I'd be interested to hear how
it compares.

--
Hal Skinner <hal...@gate.net> Visualize whirled peas.
--

[DRAYGIN]

Obviously you have not trained in Parker's style from a direct source or
you would know your statmen was inacurate to an extreme. Just because not
all the instructors are proficient in the ground work doesn't mean it was
the. All the ground work is in the techniques, you need an instructor who
can show you how to aplie it. I'm sure your instructor would be
dissapointed to see your lack of respect to The Father of American Karate.
Although being a Tracies style, you don't get full advantage of Parkers
System anyway. Good luck with the Shootfighting, but if you want to know
how to groundfight with Kenpo, talk to Frank Trejo. It's all there and
more.

By the way, Gracie never got in the ring with Zane Frazier. That's when
Parker will prove Gracie wrong.

Please don't take it as an insult just because I disagree. I've noticed
many in rec. martial arts can't take criticism.

[Mitch]

The contention that Tracy-style Kenpo is a "dead art" is inane.
The strikes, blocks, trips, sweeps, throws, et cetera taught in the Tracy
system comprise the basics of nearly every P/K martial art. In at least
my instructor's studio, principles of motion for every aspect of effective
execution is very much a part of the training, right form the beginning.
If my motion is off, my sifu always asks me such questions as, "where's
your power coming from?" (how should you be moving to instill power into
the technique), "are you balanced there?", "where's attacker #3?", "why
would you want your right foot in that position?" (it's ending up in) and
many, many more. Whether he's teaching Parker's most "current" methods of
movement I do not know, but they are clearly important and demonstratedly
effective. (For example, see other arts!)

As to the techniques for each belt, I can't imagine why these
wouldn't be regarded as essential and invaluable. First, as I'm sure you
know, most if not all of the current Parker system individual "techniques"
are included in the Tracy system, only in the Tracy system the additional
techniques from the "early" Parker system are still present. Regardless,
*what* do they teach? They teach such things as employing and responding
to grabs, locks, chokes, strikes of all kinds, and so on -- all the things
we had BETTER learn if we hope to survive street encounters.

And I have seen my sifu and his brother (both 3rd degree black) in
action. They trained only in the Tracy system. If anyone thinks they can't
defend themselves, he's got another thing coming (especially if he attacks
one of them!). The same can be said of somewhat lower ranking members of
my studio as well. (By the way, purple belts do not teach in my sifu's
studios! Nor do even the brown belts -- only black.)

I have NO IDEA whether either the Parker or the Tracy system of
Kenpo is "better" than the other. I won't waste my time participating in
that useless debate. The one opinion with which I am willing to express
agreement is heard in this group ad nauseum when people start bickering
about who's style is better (or who's penis is larger -- similar debate
as far as I can tell):

"IT'S THE STUDENT (AND TEACHER)."

-- Mitch

[Gus Parera]

First I must apolligise for loosing my temper in my responses to
priviouse posts, I have had personal problems and out side stress which
gets taken out on the net. And I have limmited knowlege for I have only
trained Fifteen years in kenpo

I don't think we should be arguing which method of kenpo is better, on
the contrary we should support each other and share ideas.

The school I trained at is primarily a Tracys school but my Instructor
Bart Vale trained with Mr. Parker to 5th Black. My instructor is a
fighter; we learned the hard way. You did not see the tech. you felt it.
His quest for knowlege took him where ever he could find it. He trained
with Parker, Tracy, Palamore, and others. And when some little Japanese
guy grabbed his leg and almost tore it off, he went to Japan to learn
shootfighting with Fujiwara and Sorenaka. Then he came home and worked
it on us. So I know the Art of kenpo I was taught is effective, I have
felt it. and I have had many oppertunities to aplly it working as a
bouncer in a
Miami, night club.

Who knows the the Real kenpo?

We all do!

Kenpo is made to fit the person, the person is not made to fit the art!
When some thing does not work you are asked to find a solution by working
on it and trying it.

To my experiance Both Mr. Parker and Mr. Tracy have shown ME that spirit.

I asked Mr. Tracy what happens to attackers hand in Prance of the Tiger,
he din't tell me, he said "lets do it and find out".

I aked Mr. Parker why he stepped foward insted of back in short one and
he said throw the punch again and you will see why. (I threw the punch
and the inward block became a hammer fist to my nose) You guys know this
stuff.

Lets forget the differances between Mr. Parker and Mr. Tracy The two MEN

might have had their differances but they both had one thing in common
and that is an incredible Love for Kenpo.

Peace
Gus

Who said "when a fist hits flesh that is Karate" Can some one clarify my
on this quot?

Gus Parera a.k.a. The Cleaner, RCC...@prodigy.com

Tiger & Dragon Kenpo & Shootfighting (305) 388-5153
"Such a Beautiful Web" said the Fly, So lovely to see yet deadly to
touch.

[Adam Diament]

In article <3klinq$v...@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>
RCC...@prodigy.com (Gus Parera) writes:

>
> Who said "when a fist hits flesh that is Karate" Can some one clarify my
> on this quot?
>

According to an Ed Parker Seminar I went to years ago, it was Ed Parker
himself who made this quote

[Lakedaimon]

Hi,

The actual quote is:

"When pure knuckles meet pure flesh, that's pure Karate, no matter who
executes it or whatever style is involved."
Ed Parker

Lake

[Gus Parera]

Thank you Lake

[Cat in da Hat]

DRAYGIN (dra...@aol.com) wrote:
: Obviously you have not trained in Parker's style from a direct source or

: you would know your statmen was inacurate to an extreme. Just because not
: all the instructors are proficient in the ground work doesn't mean it was
: the. All the ground work is in the techniques, you need an instructor who
: can show you how to aplie it. I'm sure your instructor would be
: dissapointed to see your lack of respect to The Father of American Karate.
: Although being a Tracies style, you don't get full advantage of Parkers
: System anyway. Good luck with the Shootfighting, but if you want to know
: how to groundfight with Kenpo, talk to Frank Trejo. It's all there and
: more.
:
: By the way, Gracie never got in the ring with Zane Frazier. That's when
: Parker will prove Gracie wrong.

R U very sure?

The same Zane Frazier eliminated in the first round by
Fatty "Let him hit me" Kevin Rosier?

From UFC 1 it looked like Gordeau showed us all how a real hitter hits
and Kevin was wishing he hadn't 'let' Gordeau hit him.

As for Gordeau ...

Another Kenpo (I don't know much about White Tiger or any Kenpo for that
matter) stylist was Keith Hackney.

Also eliminated by Gracie.

: Please don't take it as an insult just because I disagree. I've noticed

: many in rec. martial arts can't take criticism.

No offence taken in this quarter, its just that saying that Zane Frazier
would have done Gracie is nonsense plain and simple.

Lets get real,

ORI.

[DRAYGIN]

ORI wrote

>No offence taken in this quarter, its just that saying that Zane Frazier
would have done Gracie is nonsense plain and simple.

Zane did not go down from a strike, if you check it out he was having a
major asthma atack before even entering the ring. When he was taken out he
was hardley affected by the strikes thrown by Rosier. He ended up in the
hospital for the asthma. So what it comes down to is Frazier was never
fighting anywhere near full capacity. Even without taking that into
consideration, he put a serious pounding on Rosier, had it been Royce,
well I already said, wait till they get in the ring.
By the way, Hackney's style is quite different and thanks for the
rebuttle.

-BOB-

[Ron Pritchett]

Does anyone know how I can reach the Ed Parker Karate "Home Office"? I need to
find a member of theirs here in Atlanta... please e-mail

---
#include <std_bs.hpp>

Ron Pritchett

[jgarr...@gmail.com]

I dont understand what I have just read. I have studied Trays Bros Kenpo since I was 8. Thats 25 years of experience. Respect and honor has always been a big factor in the art I love. I had to memorize the kenpo creed even tho I was learning Tracy Bro and not American. I have ran barefoot on gravel and had to stand in a horestance for over a hour with my butt a inch from the ground geting hit with a escrma stick. Just fot 1st Dan and learn all katas blocks punches self defense kenpo hands move left sided and be just as good as good I was right sided That thought me respect and honor. In my kata and self defense moves all my stances are low but in my Kenpo hands moves my stances are not. It is all using someones momentum against them and using pressure points.

The beauty of Kenpo is that it is always changing and evolving.In a real life situation i would not use a single self defense move I have memorized.But a combonation of everything i have learned.

I just dont understand why if the art is always changing and evolving how one form of the style can be better than the other. Once you proficent it is up to you to decide how to use it.

[srgme...@gmail.com]

Hi my name is Don C, I’ve practiced in both Parker’s and Tracy’s Kenpo. I got my 1st Black in Tracy’s Kenpo back in 84. I like and follow principles from both systems, but definitely seen differences in both. Al Tracy actually learned from Ed Parker, but he preserved much of the older Kenpo that came from Mr Chow and Mr Mitose before Parker; and Ed Parker created a lot of change and improvements in the Kenpo system.
In Al Tracy’s Kenpo, it was less defensive and more offensive There was more full movements with the strikes, and less checks, and the stances were more open like from stances and back stances in other styles, which in my opinion was better if you were more offensive, like in tournament fighting, with being less defensive if your opponent got past your guard.
In Ed Parker’s Kenpo, there was a check in front and behind every strike. Even the stances were more defensive in posture with the neutral bow, sod and hard , forward and reverse bows. Also, with all the strikes in each technique, they were all brought in closer in a small area, with you getting very close to the opponent, and striking with multiple strikes closer at mostly weak areas. Also noted that with all the strikes and checks in a technique, he tried to add additional strikes in between the techniques strikes.
That’s my observation of the difference between the two systems, and I still love and practice both.