No such thing as Panantukan...
Slasher2129
It IS western boxing mix with FMA. NOT a legit Filipino art. Everyone knows
that.
But if it works, then it's GREAT I'd love to study it, too. BUT don't try to
fool us thinking there is a legit FMA art called Panantukan.
Like I've said before "Panantukan/Suntukan/Panununtukan or Sumbaganay" All have
the same meaning in English, BOXING.
GET IT?
Myers4321
----And just who are YOU to say? If Guro Dan Inosanto wants to refer to a
filipino empty-hand method as "Panantukan", then I'm willing to believe him.
Just what is your background and authority to make such a pronouncement?
>It IS western boxing mix with FMA. NOT a legit Filipino art. Everyone knows
>that.
---Oh? Who is "everyone"? Guro Inosanto's certified instructors and their
students certainly consider it a "legit" Filipino art. I've never seen any
stats, but I'd be willing to bet that accounts for about 60-75% of people
practicing FMAs here in the states. And besides, Escrima is Spanish
swordsmanship mixed with FMA. Does that make it less "legit"? Modern Arnis
has lots of Karate and Jiu Jitsu mixed with FMA. Does that make it less
"legit"?
>But if it works, then it's GREAT I'd love to study it, too. BUT don't try to
>fool us thinking there is a legit FMA art called Panantukan.
----I'm not responsible for you being a fool. You seem to be taking care of
that all by yourself. But just for the sake of argument let's assume that what
we are calling "Panantukan" was created by Guro Lucky Lucaylucay in Hawaii
based upon his experience as a boxer and his training in FMAs. Let's
acknowledge that:
1. It was created by a filipino martial artist
2. It includes techniques that are recognizable as coming from FMAs
3. It uses terminology that comes from a filipino language.
4. It is taught with the same cultural sociological trappings as Escrima or
Arnis.
Given those things. How is it not a FMA?
>Like I've said before "Panantukan/Suntukan/Panununtukan or Sumbaganay" All
>have>the same meaning in English, BOXING.
----So what? "Arnis/Kali/Escrima/Panandata" all refer to non-specific FMAs as
well. The labels used for different systems have changed over the years.
Pekitia Tirsia once referred to itself as "Arnis", but now goes by "Kali."
No big deal.
>GET IT?
----All I "get" is that either you don't know what you're talking about, or you
have a rather limited definition of what makes up a FMA.
Keith
bu...@my-deja.com
knows
> that.
>
try to
> fool us thinking there is a legit FMA art called Panantukan.
>
Sumbaganay" All have
> the same meaning in English, BOXING.
>
>
It's always refreshing to hear someone call bullshit on the charlatans.
Do you know anything about Dumog or Lua? I read somewhere that dumog
was a technique used to bulldog a water buffalo for branding. I heard
that Lua was the method for folding a prisoner's body after he had been
beaten senseless in a more conventional way. Funny how these "martial
arts" pop up every now and then. What's next? Gator wrestling as a
martial art?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Myers4321
---Charlatans? Let's see, you just used that term to refer to people like Dan
Inosanto, Ted Lucaylucay, Rick Faye, Rick Tucci, Mark Stewart, Paul Vunak....I
could go on. Some of the top people in the field of FMAs. Better watch out
who you are calling "Charlatans."
Keith
bu...@my-deja.com
>
> ---Charlatans? Let's see, you just used that term to refer to people
like Dan
> Inosanto, Ted Lucaylucay, Rick Faye, Rick Tucci, Mark Stewart, Paul
Vunak....I
> could go on. Some of the top people in the field of FMAs. Better
watch out
> who you are calling "Charlatans."
>
> Keith
>
I don't recall naming anyone but if the shoe fits then wear it! I
suspect that all of these 4+ syllable words that these guys refer to
as "arts" are actually just terms used to denote different classes of
techniques. They are not arts unto themselves.
Zarathud the Reclining
bringing relatively obscure martial arts to the public. But, it's
somewhat galling to hear his disciples put him up as a near-deity.
Especially when I hear Inosanto misprounounce words from the various
Philippine languages. His book on the Filipino martial arts is
remarkable and an important, yet contains many inaccuracies that some
in the JKD clan continue to cite as fact.
The rest of this debate is so much semantics.
In article <8cj5v5$uev$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is
not a crime. -- Ernest Hemingway
bu...@my-deja.com
Zarathud the Reclining <na...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I'm in general agreement with you. Inosanto is to be lauded for
> bringing relatively obscure martial arts to the public. But, it's
> somewhat galling to hear his disciples put him up as a near-deity.
> Especially when I hear Inosanto misprounounce words from the various
> Philippine languages. His book on the Filipino martial arts is
> remarkable and an important, yet contains many inaccuracies that some
> in the JKD clan continue to cite as fact.
>
> The rest of this debate is so much semantics.
>
Inosanto. I have nothing against the man. By all accounts he's a real
nice guy. Concerning his book, I have a real problem with his
description of an encounter between an American GI whom he refers to
as "Christian" and a Moro warrior. He praises the Moro's tenacity in
battle after being shot several times but fails to mention that they
used opium to attain that level of tenacity. I have to believe that his
objective was to run down America and Christianity. He never gives the
name of the American soldier. Chances are that he doesn't know his
name. This American GI could have easily been Jewish or some other
religion but Inosanto chose to portray a Muslim/Moro against a
Christian/American. Apparently this is to show the superiority of Islam.
If this book was written and published specifically for Islamic
countries it would be understandable but It was written and published
in America. Now that I see what Inosanto thinks of Americans I won't
buy any more of his products or attend his seminars.
Myers4321
>suspect that all of these 4+ syllable words that these guys refer to
>as "arts" are actually just terms used to denote different classes of
>techniques. They are not arts unto themselves.
>
---So if I choose to practice western boxing but also include limb
destructions, angled punches not normally found in boxing, sweeps, takedowns,
elbow strikes, etc...and I practice it alone...no JKD, no Thai boxing....does
it not qualify as as art unto itself? I could call it something like
"combative boxing" or "street pugilism" and teach it in an organized manner and
it would be considered an art unto itself. I just choose to give credit to the
filipino portion of its origin and call it "Panantukan." I don't "deify" or
"worship" anyone. But the people I named are all people that are given much
respect within the martial arts community. Calling them "charlatans" doesn't
do anything but bring your own credibility into question.
Keith
Turiyan OG: original Gog Gold
Panantuka kind of looks a bit like yi quan doesnt it? :)
How many of the top FMA guys do MORO styles?
I know a guy that does. He has storys to tell about the supression in
real life, on the internet (mailing lists, ect) about moro styles.
The FMA on video is a joke. Moro styles move so fast you'd be wasting
tape trying to film it. And the american FMA is biased agaist the
moro styles because most of the FMA in the usa come from one part of
the filipines.
The term FMA is like refering to civilisations in south china sea's as
hong kong. Hong kong is just part of hundreds of islands connected by
subway and or ferry.
Moro empty hand would cream 90% of the short hand styles like wing
chun. Brings new meaning to "Sight unseen".
So, How much of this crap is made up?
True Buddha School is pure Atheism.
Its goals are total anNIHILation,
the highest aim of all virtue.
This is Nirvana.
In the beginning only death is real.
Immortality means dying first.
"I'm not sure what part of me intimidates you."
Booya -- go...@ij.net -- ICQ: 23934701
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When you stop believing in me, you will become me" -- Buddha
"Popular religion can be summed up as respect for
ecclesiastics." -- Spinoza
"One man rules better than several that come close to being one"
-- Thomas aquinas
"There exist no class distinctions in education." -- Confucious Analects Verse 22
afriKan
>
> I'm in general agreement with you. Inosanto is to be lauded for
> bringing relatively obscure martial arts to the public. But, it's
> somewhat galling to hear his disciples put him up as a near-deity.
> Especially when I hear Inosanto misprounounce words from the various
> Philippine languages. His book on the Filipino martial arts is
> remarkable and an important, yet contains many inaccuracies that some
> in the JKD clan continue to cite as fact.
>
> The rest of this debate is so much semantics.
>
> bu...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ---Charlatans? Let's see, you just used that term to refer to
> people
> > like Dan
> > > Inosanto, Ted Lucaylucay, Rick Faye, Rick Tucci, Mark Stewart, Paul
> > Vunak....I
> > > could go on. Some of the top people in the field of FMAs. Better
> > watch out
> > > who you are calling "Charlatans."
> > >
> > > Keith
> > >
> >
> > suspect that all of these 4+ syllable words that these guys refer to
> > as "arts" are actually just terms used to denote different classes of
> > techniques. They are not arts unto themselves.
Why get hung up about what something is being called ?. A punch
is a punch is a punch, regardless of the fillipino/chinese/japanese/
korean name for it.
Just get on the mat and perform dammit :) Judge the guru's
by their performance, not by their knowledge of the more obscure aspects
or naming conventions of a technique or art.
Bruce.
--
The mfw challenge: http://www.icon.co.za/~klette/
Zarathud the Reclining
who referred to what he did as "Filipino Judo". The JKD clan would
call it "kinomot" or "dumog". Which is more descriptive to an English-
speaking American? OTOH, "panantukan" sounds more exotic than
"Filipino Boxing". More exotic = more $$$. Just my opinion.
In article <38ED86B0...@cutthisspamblock.fdp.co.za>,
--
Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is
not a crime. -- Ernest Hemingway
Zarathud the Reclining
and you create something of your own and take on a pre-existing name,
doesn't that smack of charlatan-ism (is that a word?)? It does to me.
Unless, you are a native speaker of a Philippine language, I think
you're just dressing it up.
If you want to pay homage, tell your students where your influences
came from. Teach them the background and history.
In article <20000406203110...@ng-cf1.aol.com>,
myer...@aol.com (Myers4321) wrote:
> >I don't recall naming anyone but if the shoe fits then wear it! I
> >suspect that all of these 4+ syllable words that these guys refer to
> >as "arts" are actually just terms used to denote different classes of
> >techniques. They are not arts unto themselves.
> >
>
> ---So if I choose to practice western boxing but also include limb
> destructions, angled punches not normally found in boxing, sweeps,
takedowns,
> elbow strikes, etc...and I practice it alone...no JKD, no Thai
boxing....does
> it not qualify as as art unto itself? I could call it something like
> "combative boxing" or "street pugilism" and teach it in an organized
manner and
> it would be considered an art unto itself. I just choose to give
credit to the
> filipino portion of its origin and call it "Panantukan." I don't
"deify" or
> "worship" anyone. But the people I named are all people that are
given much
> respect within the martial arts community. Calling them "charlatans"
doesn't
> do anything but bring your own credibility into question.
>
> Keith
>
--
Chas
> Just get on the mat and perform dammit :) Judge the guru's
> by their performance, not by their knowledge of the more obscure aspects
> or naming conventions of a technique or art.
I don't quite agree with that.
In the first place, FMA/IMA is known for it's 'performance'- I don't
know any guru that isn't willing to step out on the fighting floor and
'prove' his art.
The second part is my quibble though- I think that the history, the
'obscure aspects' of an *art* are important. I want to know the
vocabulary; I want to know the techniques for obscure and obsolete
engagements- hell, we practice a response to a set of movements by
hereditary opponents the only proponents of which art are 7,000 miles
away <g>
It is like weapons; first, they must work- second, it's nice if they're
pretty- it gives you something to look at while waiting for the ambush
to set.
Chas
Chas
> I thought I was the only who didn't worship
> Inosanto. I have nothing against the man. By all accounts he's a real
> nice guy.
There are lots of 'nice guys'- Danny is one of the premier martial
artists in the US. That's not a matter of 'worship', that's a matter of
giving respect to the time, discipline, blood and hard work he's given
the art for forty years.
> Concerning his book, I have a real problem with his
> description of an encounter between an American GI whom he refers to
> as "Christian" and a Moro warrior.
Unfortunately, that story has a lot of holes in it that have been
discussed before (the story about the genesis of the .45ACP per
exemplar).
> He praises the Moro's tenacity in
> battle after being shot several times but fails to mention that they
> used opium to attain that level of tenacity.
That's an oversimplification (as well as the wrong drugs cited- it
wasn't 'opium'). It would be hard to cite another warrior culture to
match the 'intent' of the juramentados (although the Dog Soldiers of the
Southern Cheyenne come to mind).
> I have to believe that his
> objective was to run down America and Christianity.
Oh horseshit- Danny was a paratrooper; he is a patriot and he's put his
ass on the line for it. I don't know his personal religious stand, but
he wasn't denigrating anybody and that's an unfair calumny.
> He never gives the
> name of the American soldier. Chances are that he doesn't know his
> name. This American GI could have easily been Jewish or some other
> religion but Inosanto chose to portray a Muslim/Moro against a
> Christian/American.
Oh crap.
That story has been told for nearly a hundred years; Danny didn't make
it up. I have a catalog (somewhere) of Bannermans in the 1920's that is
selling kampilans with the juramentado scarf still tied to them (there
were a dozen or so available- at three times the price of any nihonto in
the catalog)- if memory serves, they mention the .45 story.
The defining characteristic of the Moros was their allegiance to the
more southern empire (Srivajaian/Visaijan (?)) rather than the
Spanish/Catholic occupation.
> Apparently this is to show the superiority of Islam.
Keeee-rap-
The Spanish derived arts (escrima, arnis de mano, espada y daga) are
very different from the Muslim arts- it was probably to draw that
distinction. It's only been in the last fifty years or so that the arts
have even influenced one another to much of a degree.
> If this book was written and published specifically for Islamic
> countries it would be understandable but It was written and published
> in America. Now that I see what Inosanto thinks of Americans I won't
> buy any more of his products or attend his seminars.
the more fool you then.
Chas
Russ Rader
> afriKan wrote:
> > Just get on the mat and perform dammit :) Judge the guru's
> > by their performance, not by their knowledge of the more obscure aspects
> > or naming conventions of a technique or art.
>
> I don't quite agree with that.
> In the first place, FMA/IMA is known for it's 'performance'- I don't
> know any guru that isn't willing to step out on the fighting floor and
> 'prove' his art.
> The second part is my quibble though- I think that the history, the
> 'obscure aspects' of an *art* are important. I want to know the
> vocabulary; I want to know the techniques for obscure and obsolete
> engagements-
Dan Inosanto trained under old-school guys like LaCoste, Illustrissimo,
etc. As you yourself know, the teaching methods of that old school are
more fast and loose, less structured, than the common Western variety.
Add into that the variety of dialects used in the Philippines. So Guru
Dan gets a word wrong here or there. BFD.
> hell, we practice a response to a set of movements by
> hereditary opponents the only proponents of which art are 7,000 miles
> away <g>
> It is like weapons; first, they must work- second, it's nice if they're
> pretty- it gives you something to look at while waiting for the ambush
> to set.
Yep. The first part is a "must", the second part is a "nice". The
cultural aspects are interesting, but they are not what I came to
learn. As somebody once said, "It's fighting, not folk-dancing!" ;-)
Russ
Zarathud the Reclining
Martial Arts", it was by Bob Dubljanin and appeared in Martial Arts &
Combat Sports, January 2000.
Here's a quote:
"To understand your martial art, you must understand the
philosophy of that martial art. To understand the
philosophy you must understand the culture it came from.
To understand the culture it came from, you must
understand the history of that culture."
-- Guro Cass Magda
As I understand it Cass Magda was (is?) an Inosanto student. He seems
to have written some good article on silat. Anyway, one of Inosanto's
own students seems to be of the opinion that the little details matter.
No, it matters. Read Inosanto's book again. He makes a big deal about
the cultural importance. So when he mangles the language, it seems
very incongruous. Now, I've met him and he is indeed a nice guy. That
has nothing to do with any of this.
In article <38EE1EAB...@ford.com>,
--
Zarathud the Reclining
on here. It is only by knowing the tiny details that you get the full
value of an art.
In article <38EE169F...@home.com>,
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> afriKan wrote:
> > Just get on the mat and perform dammit :) Judge the guru's
> > by their performance, not by their knowledge of the more obscure
aspects
> > or naming conventions of a technique or art.
>
> I don't quite agree with that.
> In the first place, FMA/IMA is known for it's 'performance'- I don't
> know any guru that isn't willing to step out on the fighting floor and
> 'prove' his art.
> The second part is my quibble though- I think that the history, the
> 'obscure aspects' of an *art* are important. I want to know the
> vocabulary; I want to know the techniques for obscure and obsolete
> engagements- hell, we practice a response to a set of movements by
> hereditary opponents the only proponents of which art are 7,000 miles
> away <g>
> It is like weapons; first, they must work- second, it's nice if
they're
> pretty- it gives you something to look at while waiting for the ambush
> to set.
>
> Chas
Myers4321
>and you create something of your own and take on a pre-existing name,
>doesn't that smack of charlatan-ism (is that a word?)?
----No it doesn't. A previous poster on this thread pointed out that
"panantukan" is a general term for "filipino boxing" just as "Escrima",
"Arnis", and "Kali" are general terms for FMAs. Remy Presas took elements of
Karate, Jiu Jitsu, and several FMAs and came up with a new creation. He chose
to use the pre-existing term of "Arnis." Does that make him a charlatan?
>Unless, you are a native speaker of a Philippine language, I think
>you're just dressing it up.
---So you have to be a native speaker to use Filipino terms? That's silly!
>If you want to pay homage, tell your students where your influences
>came from. Teach them the background and history.
----Who ever said that Panantukan instructors don't do that? Now the likely
question coming from students would be "but if it has all this history and
background that is Filipino...why doesn't it have a Filipino name?"
Keith
Myers4321
>the cultural importance. So when he mangles the language, it seems
>very incongruous. Now, I've met him and he is indeed a nice guy. That
>has nothing to do with any of this.
----So you are suggesting that since Guro Inosanto is an instructor of a
Filipino martial art he should know every dialect used in the Phillipines and
be able to pronounce every term with a native accent? Get real!
Keith
Chas
>As somebody once said, "It's fighting, not folk-dancing!" ;-)
Sounds like a man of uncommon perception and acuity to me ;-))
Chas
Zarathud the Reclining
Maybe I'll type this slow, because it seems you don't read too fast.
;-) He pushes cultural matters. He can't even take the time to
pronounce words properly? Words from his parents' native tongue?
In article <20000408082533...@ng-fu1.aol.com>,
--
Zarathud the Reclining
accepted name, "arnis". He later incorporated other arts. These arts
are subordinate to his arnis and are expressed in terms of arnis.
The other 2 points, well, you just don't get it. When one elderly man,
born in Bohol, showed me some moves, I asked what that was. "Boxing",
he said. Years later, in Huntington Beach, I would see students of Ted
Lucaylucay doing very similar things. They said it was "panantukan".
"What does the word mean?", I asked. No one knew.
Why are they using a word that has no meaning for them? It does seem
to sell the art better, though.
In article <20000408082059...@ng-fu1.aol.com>,
bu...@my-deja.com
> accepted name, "arnis". He later incorporated other arts. These arts
> are subordinate to his arnis and are expressed in terms of arnis.
>
> The other 2 points, well, you just don't get it. When one elderly
man,
> born in Bohol, showed me some moves, I asked what that was. "Boxing",
> he said. Years later, in Huntington Beach, I would see students of
Ted
> Lucaylucay doing very similar things. They said it was "panantukan".
> "What does the word mean?", I asked. No one knew.
>
> Why are they using a word that has no meaning for them? It does seem
> to sell the art better, though.
Well said Z. Using an exotic name makes it sound like something
different from (superior to) Western Boxing. Good marketing strategy.
Russ Rader
>I read a magazine article not long ago. Titled "The Southeast Asian
>Martial Arts", it was by Bob Dubljanin and appeared in Martial Arts &
>Combat Sports, January 2000.
>
>Here's a quote:
>
> "To understand your martial art, you must understand the
> philosophy of that martial art. To understand the
> philosophy you must understand the culture it came from.
> To understand the culture it came from, you must
> understand the history of that culture."
> -- Guro Cass Magda
>
>As I understand it Cass Magda was (is?) an Inosanto student. He seems
>to have written some good article on silat. Anyway, one of Inosanto's
>own students seems to be of the opinion that the little details matter.
Yeah, and Cass Magda is (was, whatever) one of many of Guru Dan's students,
in a program (JKD Concepts) that encourages every student to go their own
way. That is Cass Magda's way. Fine by me. I'm not interested in culture,
head games, art, or any of that. I'm interested in learning self-defense,
and that's it. That is my way.
>No, it matters. Read Inosanto's book again. He makes a big deal about
>the cultural importance.
He's a Visayan. Filipino culture is going to be more important to him than
it would be to me.
>So when he mangles the language, it seems
>very incongruous.
I don't speak dozens of languages fluently either, so I'm not going to judge
him for that. Saying "strike #1" works for me; I don't need to know how to
say it in 50 Filipino dialects.
>Now, I've met him and he is indeed a nice guy. That
>has nothing to do with any of this.
We agree on something.
Russ
Russ Rader
>> The other 2 points, well, you just don't get it. When one elderly
>man,
>> born in Bohol, showed me some moves, I asked what that was. "Boxing",
>> he said. Years later, in Huntington Beach, I would see students of
>Ted
>> Lucaylucay doing very similar things. They said it was "panantukan".
>> "What does the word mean?", I asked. No one knew.
>>
>> Why are they using a word that has no meaning for them?
Because their teacher told them it was called panantukan, and they went with
it, and then trained? If they were interested in learning how to fight,
instead of a cultural exchange program, that sounds understandable to me.
>Well said Z. Using an exotic name makes it sound like something
>different from (superior to) Western Boxing. Good marketing strategy.
Boxing that uses elbows, knees, low kicks, whatever. Sounds different from
Western boxing to me. It's Filipino style boxing; the word is panantukan.
Get over it.
Did you two get sexually abused by a Filipino as a child, or what?
Russ
Slasher2129
>Western boxing to me.
Well isn't that kickboxing? Why not call it kickboxing then.
>It's Filipino style boxing; the word is panantukan.
>Get over it.
There you go again. WRONG! "Panantukan" means boxing. So is "Panununtukan,
Sumbaganay, Tapongulay, Tuk-apanay and the list goes on." Not Filipino style
boxing unless you call it "Sipa Panantukan" (translation: kickboxing)
Does it makes sense?
BTW, "Suntukan" is a Tagalog word for Panantukan w/c means BOXING. Not
kixkboxing. :)
bu...@my-deja.com
> Boxing that uses elbows, knees, low kicks, whatever. Sounds
different from
> Western boxing to me. It's Filipino style boxing; the word is
panantukan.
> Get over it.
>
> Did you two get sexually abused by a Filipino as a child, or what?
>
> Russ
Obviously we do have mental problems since we're not JKD stylists.
Panantukan sounds like something that was recently assembled together
instead of a fighting tradition that was distilled through experience
over several generations. Is that what it is? Be honest!
afriKan
>
> afriKan wrote:
> > Just get on the mat and perform dammit :) Judge the guru's
> > by their performance, not by their knowledge of the more obscure aspects
> > or naming conventions of a technique or art.
>
> 'obscure aspects' of an *art* are important.
Once again I am guilty of assuming that what I want out of MA is
what everybody wants out of MA. If you want the history and the
details, fair enough.
afriKan
>
> Here's a quote:
>
> "To understand your martial art, you must understand the
> philosophy of that martial art. To understand the
> philosophy you must understand the culture it came from.
> To understand the culture it came from, you must
> understand the history of that culture."
> -- Guro Cass Magda
>
"To defeat a marital art, you must ignore the philosophy of that
art, forget about the culture it came from, and disregard the
history of that culture. Only that way will it come down to
a contest of strength and skill between one man and another"
-- Guru Bruce Klette
I know I am stirring a bit, but I
actually believe in my quote far more than I do in his :).
Myers4321
some sense. There are many languages and dialects in the Phillipines. What
makes you think that a particular word he may mispronounce was from one that
his parents spoke? Are experts in Chinese martial arts expected to know all of
the variations of the language spoken in China? They sure haven't in my
experience. I stand by my original statement. You can type it as slowly as you
want, but it still doesn't change the fact that your point is unfounded.
Keith
>When you get to the sixth grade, try reading the post again.
>Maybe I'll type this slow, because it seems you don't read too fast.
>;-) He pushes cultural matters. He can't even take the time to
>pronounce words properly? Words from his parents' native tongue?
From the original post:
>> >No, it matters. Read Inosanto's book again. He makes a big deal>about
>> >the cultural importance. So when he mangles the language, it seems
>> >very incongruous. Now, I've met him and he is indeed a nice guy.
>That
>> >has nothing to do with any of this.
My original reply:
Myers4321
>accepted name, "arnis". He later incorporated other arts. These arts
>are subordinate to his arnis and are expressed in terms of arnis.
----The fact remains that he has blended elements from systems that are not
Filipino. He created a new system and used a general term already in use to
describe it. No one considers him a "charlatan" for having done so.
>The other 2 points, well, you just don't get it.
----No, I think you are the one that doesn't get it. Why are you so hung up on
a name? What you don't seem to get is that such a thing as "Panantukan" DOES
exist.
You may not like the way it is described, but that doesn't change the fact that
it is taught as an independant system in its own right.
When one elderly man,
>born in Bohol, showed me some moves, I asked what that was. "Boxing",
>he said.
-----Maybe he was using the English term because you were an English speaker.
Or maybe western boxing was fairly new to him and the label "panantukan" was
not in use at the time. Or maybe it's just not a popular term used in the
Philippines. So what? The fact remains that it exists as a independant method
in its own right here in the states. It is given a Filipino name to reflect
that part of its roots. Sure it sounds "cooler" and may have more marketing
appeal than just calling it "Filipino Boxing." So what? Several systems
changed from "Arnis" to "Kali" because they thought it had better marketing
appeal. So what?
Years later, in Huntington Beach, I would see students of Ted
>Lucaylucay doing very similar things. They said it was "panantukan".
>"What does the word mean?", I asked. No one knew.
----I have heard it translated literally as "fist fighting." So they didn't
know how to translate the word. So what? Most people don't know how to
translate the word "Kali" either. So what?
>Why are they using a word that has no meaning for them? It does seem
>to sell the art better, though.
---Do you know the exact translation for every Filipino word used in your
system? I've talked to mid-ranked students in Karate and asked them what style
of Karate they were learning...and they didn't know if it was Shotokan,
Shito-ryu, etc. Are you basing your comments on contact with just a couple of
students of unknown experience?
Keith
Myers4321
>different from (superior to) Western Boxing. Good marketing strategy.
----It IS different from western boxing. And it IS superior to sport-oriented
boxing on the street. Your exact same argument could be turned around.
Imagine that it was just referred to as "boxing." Then the western sport
boxers could say the same things you guys are saying. "It ain't boxing....they
do all that other martial artsy stuff. They're just calling it boxing to
appeal to guys in the west that know boxing is the best method for fighting.
Its not really boxing because they didn't learn it in a boxing gym and fight
any real contests. They are a bunch of charlatans because they never held any
kind of boxing title." Why are you guys so hung up on a word?
Keith
Myers4321
>>Western boxing to me.
>
----OK. Just for you....we will now declare that the official adapted
translation of the word "panantukan" is "Filipino kickboxing." Happy now?
>There you go again. WRONG! "Panantukan" means boxing. So is "Panununtukan,
>Sumbaganay, Tapongulay, Tuk-apanay and the list goes on." Not Filipino style
>boxing unless you call it "Sipa Panantukan" (translation: kickboxing)
----SO WHAT?!! "Arnis" in the original spanish is "Arnes." "Escrima" in the
original spanish is "Esgrima" and is translated as "fencing." Terms have
always been shortened and adapted to be used in new ways. I have always had
the impression that "Panantukan" was a term used to refer to empty-hand
fighting in general. It can be taught independant of weapons and doesn't
necessarily always use the same methods as the weapons work. Therefore it is
given a separate name rather than just calling it "Escrima Empty-hand
fighting." Its a term of convenience that has been adapted in its use. So
what? It doesn't change the fact that this system DOES exist. Why are you
Myers4321
----That's your judgement call, not mine! I don't practice JKD either. :-)
>Panantukan sounds like something that was recently assembled together
>instead of a fighting tradition that was distilled through experience
>over several generations. Is that what it is? Be honest!
----Honestly...I do not know how far back in history Panantukan as taught here
in the states reaches. I do not believe the story that says that it has
existed for generations in the Philippines and was responsible for many of the
changes we see in modern sport boxing. I suspect that it is of rather recent
formulation. But that does not change the fact that it IS a fighting tradition
based upon experience. On the one hand you have the western boxing elements
that have been refined and developed over generations of real contact fighting
in the ring. On the other hand you have the FMA elements that have been
refined and developed over generations of fighting experience themselves. Put
those two together and you have something new that draws upon the best elements
of two different cultures. The western element provides a very mobile and
powerful base, while the SEastern component provides the martial "add-ons" that
turn a sporting system into a very lethal street system.
If you think that Panantukan is just western boxing dressed up with an exotic
name, then you haven't seen all that Panantukan offers.
Keith
Chas
> Chas wrote:
> > The second part is my quibble though- I think that the history, the
> > 'obscure aspects' of an *art* are important.
> Once again I am guilty of assuming that what I want out of MA is
> what everybody wants out of MA. If you want the history and the
> details, fair enough.
In our art, the bottom line- always- is absolute pragmatism. The
'traditions' that have evolved are, at their base, martially oriented.
A few examples; we have several moves that look as if they have no
utility until it is understood that they are for a man wearing a 'battle
sarong'- obviously, the sarong restricts certain movements of the leg
and also provides some utility in the sorts of blocking for the lower
body caused by the tightening of the cloth on a long step. When you know
that, the movements utility is much more apparent.
Certain conventions of weapons' handling look useless until you realize
that in Indonesia, many of the weapons were poisoned- the Indonesians
have one of the greatest pharmacopoeia of herbals, animal and insect
sources and free mineral sources known to exist on the planet. A lot of
the evasions, distractions and other weapons responses are predicated on
not even being touched in the least by a possibly poisoned weapon.
One of our valued posters was talking about the 'chambering' that is
taught in some Indonesian styles- weapons are carried in the sash rather
than hanging on a belt- the folds of cloth provide a multitude of
weapons hiding places- the chambering brings the hand back to draw the
weapon. It is also used to trap a hand that is already in contact with
the body and begin a manipulation of joint trapping and stressing. If
one didn't know about the high incidence of weapons carry in the
Indonesia, the move would look superfluous.
Our 'bow' is not a genuflection of some sort, it is the first move of
defense. The wary approach to a king or other authority is because
sometimes they'll kill you if you're not watching- the shrug of the
shoulders in an early movement is to drop your burden from the burden
stick (tongkat) and free the weapon to fight along the trail when
surprised by thieves.
It goes on.
I think it is a mistake to ignore the compilation of useful martial
knowledge accumulated by generations of fighters. Seeing as one doesn't
know what knowledge will be useful and what is not when one starts in an
art, it is better to have a faith that ones' teachers are fighting men
with useful knowledge to share.
This idea may not be useful for all arts, but they're useful for mine.
Chas
Russ Rader
>
>> Boxing that uses elbows, knees, low kicks, whatever. Sounds
>> the word is panantukan.
>> Get over it.
>>
>> Did you two get sexually abused by a Filipino as a child, or what?
>>
>> Russ
>
Obviously, you have a serious dislike of certain Filipino arts. Why?
Because they use boxing as part of their art? Because they are of possibly
recent origin? So what? They use what works, and they are willing to
change to accomodate new methods. Sounds great to me.
What art do you do, BTW?
>Panantukan sounds like something that was recently assembled together
>instead of a fighting tradition that was distilled through experience
>over several generations. Is that what it is? Be honest!
I don't know. I don't care. Would it help me in a fight? That's what I
care about.
Russ
Russ Rader
<20000408192610...@ng-ci1.aol.com>...
>>Boxing that uses elbows, knees, low kicks, whatever. >Sounds different
from
>>Western boxing to me.
>
>Well isn't that kickboxing? Why not call it kickboxing then.
Your argument sounds like this: Yakitori is meat on a stick. Shish kabob
is meat on a stick. Why don't those damned Japs just call it shish kabob?
Russ
bu...@my-deja.com
Lameco Eskrima
Alex
Chas heeft geschreven in bericht <38F09320...@home.com>...
>afriKan wrote:
>> Chas wrote:
>> > The second part is my quibble though- I think that the history, the
>> > 'obscure aspects' of an *art* are important.
>> Once again I am guilty of assuming that what I want out of MA is
>> what everybody wants out of MA. If you want the history and the
>> details, fair enough.
>I think it is a mistake to ignore the compilation of useful martial
>knowledge accumulated by generations of fighters. Seeing as one doesn't
>know what knowledge will be useful and what is not when one starts in an
>art, it is better to have a faith that ones' teachers are fighting men
>with useful knowledge to share.
>This idea may not be useful for all arts, but they're useful for mine.
To add my two cents, I would agree that, for instance, there are many
moves hidden in Taekwondo/Karate forms, that add to the martial art's
library of fighting knowledge.
The problem comes with decyphering these moves, and with teachers/instructors
who may themselves not be aware of their meanings or significance.
Neither will their students be, when they themselves become instructors.
What's more, these moves of unknown origin may subsequently performed
in a very flowery or artistic manner, which makes it nearly impossible
to decypher their original meanings.
This has happened over and over in Karate, for instance, where in Shotokan,
many of the "Bunkai" (analysis/application of the style) is very basic and
bare bones.
It is also even more the case in Wushu (the acrobatically inclined, governemnt
sponsored version of Kung Fu), but at least there the proponents of the original
arts are still alive to say different.
On the other hand, if you look at Taekwondo, then you see it's largely derived
from Shotokan, which is largely derived from Shorin Ryu, which is largely
derived from Bai He Chuan, Five Ancestor Fist and other Kung Fu styles.
So, in these cases, the true meanings behind "superfluous" moves, may
have been lost for generations, if not centuries.
Just some food for thought.
Alex
Slasher2129
>from
>>>Western boxing to me.
>>
>>Well isn't that kickboxing? Why not call it kickboxing then.
>
>Your argument sounds like this: Yakitori is meat on a stick. Shish kabob
>is meat on a stick. Why don't those damned Japs just call it shish kabob?
>
>
>Russ
Your exactly right.
But let me explain it this way. PANANTUKAN is a BOXING word in one of many
Filipino dialects.
BOXING is the English word for PANANTUKAN.
BOXING is fist fighting and so is PANANTUKAN.
If you use "elbows, knees, low kicks, whatever" according to the statement
given above. Then might as well call it "Sipa (kick in Filipino)
Suntukan/Panantukan (boxing in Filipino)" or Muay Thai if you prefer it.
Panantukan means boxing. PERIOD!!! I've ask this many, many times to alot of
filipino who lives in the Philippines and here before. It's not a legit
Filipino art. It's a marketing strategy to make money.
cate...@my-deja.com
Myers4321
One last time:
>But let me explain it this way. PANANTUKAN is a BOXING word in one of
many>Filipino dialects.
----Perhaps is doesn't necessarily have to mean "sport boxing" with rules and
gloves?
>BOXING is fist fighting and so is PANANTUKAN.
---"Fist fighting" is a rather general term. It doesn't necessarily refer to
"sport boxing" with rules and gloves. Used as a general term, it can refer to
any kind of empty-hand fighting.
>If you use "elbows, knees, low kicks, whatever" according to the statement
>given above. Then might as well call it "Sipa (kick in Filipino)
Suntukan/Panantukan (boxing in Filipino)" or Muay Thai if you prefer it.
----"Sipa" in some systems refers specifically to a cross/oblique kick from the
rear leg. In your micro-analysis of words wouldn't this suggest that your
kickboxing style only has one kick? "Esgrima" is a spanish word commonly
translated as "Fencing." If it is going to be applied to a FMA shouldn't it be
"Mano Y Baston Escrima" in order to adhere to the semantic purity you are
suggesting? If we called it "Muay Thai" wouldn't that piss off the MT people?
They would have a much stronger argument and far more justification that what
you have. How can you even suggest that, based upon the semantic purity you
are trying to force upon it now? Its rather inconsistent.
>Panantukan means boxing. PERIOD!!! I've ask this many, many times to alot of
>filipino who lives in the Philippines and here before. It's not a legit
>Filipino art. It's a marketing strategy to make money.
---I asked this before and got no answer, so I'll ask it again: Modern Arnis
is a combination of FMAs, Karate, and Jiu Jitsu. It used the preexisting term
of "Arnis" to describe it. Is it any more of a "legit Filipino art" than
Panantukan? Just how do you define "legit?" I asked another question that
was also ignored, so I'll ask it again. The Panantukan I learned was created
by a Filipino, uses Filipino terminology, and is taught in the same
cultural/sociological format as any other FMA. How is it NOT a FMA? You
keep saying the same things over and over. But the only way you back up your
argument is to say "I ask these other people and they told me this." Maybe
you're just asking the wrong people!! Panantukan exists and is legit. PERIOD!
There have been 2 videotapes and a book produced covering it as a martial art.
If you can't see past a silly word definition argument, then fine...that's
your problem. But you could at least be consistent in how you enforce your
semantic rules.
Keith
apoweyn
to something, not to describe it in it's entirety. People object
to the term, because it literally means "boxing." Yet it
contains kicks as well, so they assert that it should be
"kickboxing" (sipa panantukan). Well, it also uses elbows. Does
it then become "siko sipa panantukan" or something? The label
very soon becomes less of a name and more of a synopsis, making
the label useless.
First, panantukan is TRANSLATED to mean "boxing." Like any other
translation, it's an approximation. If you asked a Filipino
individual whether Mike Tyson practiced panantukan, I doubt that
they would say, "yes."
Second, the term "boxing" is in no way more complete. How is the
actual word "boxing" in any way descriptive of the physical
execution that we now know as boxing? It isn't. So it was a
label that someone, somewhere along the line, applied to this
physical activity. If someone who had never seen or heard of
boxing heard the term, do you honestly think that they would be
able to accurately picture the physical activity? Of course not.
Was it a term that came into use in recent years? Probably.
Does that, in any way, detract from it's meaning. Absolutely
not. Every term in the world was new at one time or another.
That's how language evolves. When email was invented, they
coined a term to REFER to it, not to accurately describe it. The
term "email" does sod all as far as explaining what it is. But
we accepted the term, and now we understand to what it refers.
Does the fact that the term is new in any way detract from the
technology? No. Is the technology based on technology that came
before it? Of course.
In the same way, panantukan is based on things that came before
it. The styles and practices that lead a practitioner to label
something panantukan are rooted in time and experience. So how
is it invalid?
Start down that road, and you invalidate every name there is.
Jeet kune do (way of the intercepting FIST) uses feet. Tae kwon
do (way of FEET and FISTS) features elbow strikes in its forms.
Jujutsu (the GENTLE method) has moves that aren't so "gentle."
So what is it that you want, exactly?
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Dustin Laurence
light! People have been LYING to me for years too!! We've got to get the
word out on this SCAM before more people are taken in!!!!
There is NO such thing as karate, either! SUPPOSEDLY it means "empty
hand," but I've seen karate guys and they KICK all the time! !!!!!
Idiots--they just use the word their GREEDY instructors used without
thinking.
They ain't NO sech thing as "boxe Francaise" either; I've seen them
"savate" guys and they KICK too. Morons! They even use "boxing" for
their kicking art! Guess the French NEVER saw REAL boxing like in VEGAS
so they didn't know the word meant punching with the fist only!!!!! Oh,
well, what do FROGS know about English anyhow.
IIRC chuan fa means something like fist-way, and those guys KICK and GRAB
too!!!! I guess all those guys are just CRETINS for not figuring all this
out. CRETINS or LYING GREEDY FAKES. Geeze, Chinamen must be stupid to
use "fist" for the name while they're using their feet, elbows, knees, and
open hand!!!!!!
The British, too; they saw the Chinese KICKING and THROWING, and STILL
called it "boxing". The "boxer" rebellion, indeed! And those IGNORANT
TEA-SIPPING SAVAGES claim to speak *English*--guess they never visited the
good old US of A so they could learn what "boxing" means!!!!! Those
simps outta get out of their castles and see more GOOD AMERICAN BOXING
like Don King promotes!!!
OK, I feel better now that we settled that one. Just as soon as I get my
breath back, I'm gonna expose all those "submission wrestling" guys next.
Geeze, wrestling means using the AAU rules, and DONT YOU FORGET IT!!!!
Them Greeks tried to call their gruntin-and-pantin-on-the-ground stuff
WRESTLING, too, and I happen to know they DIDN'T use AAU rules in their
so-called "olympics!!!!! And their "olympics" weren't sanctioned by the
IOC, either--a real travesty for them marble-carvin' panty-waists to use a
great, hallowed name like THE OLYMPICS!!!! WE GOTTA STOP THEM TOO!!!!
Dustin, Beware! Ignorance is everywhere! We must be vigilant....
--
"I regard you as one of the largest obstacles to
the free dissemination of information to the world
aquarist community that has ever existed."
-- Richard Sexton, <4i406o$o...@gold.interlog.com>
Daniel Winsor - HESE
>
>Dustin, Beware! Ignorance is everywhere! We must be vigilant....
Dude, you've GOT to get more fiber in your diet...
---
Dan Winsor
Slasher2129
>
>---Man! I ask again: WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO HUNG UP ON A WORD????
>One last time:
>
>>But let me explain it this way. PANANTUKAN is a BOXING word in one of
>many>Filipino dialects.
>
>----Perhaps is doesn't necessarily have to mean "sport boxing" with rules
>and
>gloves?
OK, so let me read this for you. Here with me a Filipino-English dictionary by
Leo James English C.Ss.R. Copyright 1986 Printed by Kalayan Press Mktg. Ent.,
Inc. 58 Kalayaan St., Diliman, Quezon City, Philippines that I've purchased a
year ago.
SUNTOK (Panantukan) - a blow, punch or hit with the FIST.
Panantukan is Suntok in another Filipino local dialect.
So it is boxing.
>>BOXING is fist fighting and so is PANANTUKAN.
>
>---"Fist fighting" is a rather general term. It doesn't necessarily refer
>to
>"sport boxing" with rules and gloves. Used as a general term, it can refer
>to
>any kind of empty-hand fighting.
See above.
>
>>If you use "elbows, knees, low kicks, whatever" according to the statement
>>given above. Then might as well call it "Sipa (kick in Filipino)
>Suntukan/Panantukan (boxing in Filipino)" or Muay Thai if you prefer it.
>
>
>----"Sipa" in some systems refers specifically to a cross/oblique kick from
>the
>rear leg. In your micro-analysis of words wouldn't this suggest that your
>kickboxing style only has one kick?
Sir. Sipa means KICK it's not an oblique kick. It can be any kind of kick.
SIPA - a kick; a striking with the foot. Taken from "Filipino-English
dictionary by Leo James English C.Ss.R. Copyright 1986"
So it's NOT a specific kick (oblique kick) like what you've said. Remember that
not all what your instructor tells you is right. If he tells you to jump off
the bridge will you do it? For some obvious reason I won't. Will you? If he
tells you that Panantukan means dancing will you believe him?
>"Esgrima" is a spanish word commonly
>translated as "Fencing." If it is going to be applied to a FMA shouldn't
>it be
>"Mano Y Baston Escrima" in order to adhere to the semantic purity you are
>suggesting? If we called it "Muay Thai" wouldn't that piss off the MT people?
>
>They would have a much stronger argument and far more justification that
>what
>you have. How can you even suggest that, based upon the semantic purity
>you
>are trying to force upon it now? Its rather inconsistent.
Read Philippine martial art history for these. It's been legit for the last 300
years and so. And where does Panantukan exist at that time? I don't know, don't
ask me. Oh yes, I remember....... Panantukan means boxing and not a Filipino
art. There's no such thing as Panantukan Filipino martial art. Only Panantukan
which means boxing in general.
>
>>Panantukan means boxing. PERIOD!!! I've ask this many, many times to alot
>of
>>filipino who lives in the Philippines and here before. It's not a legit
>>Filipino art. It's a marketing strategy to make money.
>
>---I asked this before and got no answer, so I'll ask it again: Modern
>Arnis
>is a combination of FMAs, Karate, and Jiu Jitsu. It used the preexisting
>term
>of "Arnis" to describe it. Is it any more of a "legit Filipino art" than
>Panantukan? Just how do you define "legit?" I asked another question
>that
>was also ignored, so I'll ask it again. The Panantukan I learned was created
>by a Filipino, uses Filipino terminology, and is taught in the same
>cultural/sociological format as any other FMA. How is it NOT a FMA?
Arnis is a legit Filipino martial art compare to Panantukan w/c actullly means
boxing and not a Filipino art. Read above again. Suntok/Panantukan means
boxing.
The word Arnis was and is an official martial art of the Philippines. The head
or president at that time (Marcos regime) of a big Arnis organization is Gen.
Fabian Ver (a high ranking official of the Philippine government) who put Arnis
as a P.E. curiculum for most school in the Philippines at that time. And where
do you put Panantukan today in the Philippines? In the BOXING ring.
Whether you call it Modern Arnis it's still Arnis. And Filipinos in general in
the Philippines don't call it Modern Arnis just "Arnis". Yes w/ Karate and Jiu
Jitsu. But when you fight with your sticks do you apply your Karate and jiu
Jitsu. NO, you use your sticks.
Karate and jiu Jitsu are just supplements and not part of Arnis. Modern Arnis
is LEGIT in it's OWN right but not Panantukan. I have to say this as many times
as i want but like i've said over and over again, PANANTUKAN means boxing, just
boxing in general and not a Filipino art.
>You
>keep saying the same things over and over. But the only way you back up
>your
>argument is to say "I ask these other people and they told me this." Maybe
>you're just asking the wrong people!! Panantukan exists and is legit.
>PERIOD!
So you mean to say I have to ask Japanese, Spanish, Egyptian people rather than
asking it to some Filipinos??? DOH!
> There have been 2 videotapes and a book produced covering it as a martial
>art.
> If you can't see past a silly word definition argument, then fine...that's
>your problem. But you could at least be consistent in how you enforce your
>semantic rules.
>
>Keith
PANANTUKAN is not a legit art. It only means "BOXING" in general, folks.
Dustin Laurence
monkeys wouldn't unnerstand, and I've found more REVELATIONS about this
here scam.
I checked my dictionary, and guess what?!? There ain't NO SUCH THING as
boxing, either!?! I jes' looked up 'box', and guess what? It MEANS a
shrub! A little ol' plant!
Well, OK, it can also mean slap or blow, but there were about a hunnerd
other defynitions too, and none of them had to do with hitting someone.
Besides, a box is on the ear or the side of the head!?! I seen Mike
Tyson, and he's a pretty mean fighter but I didn't see him hit his
opponent in the ear once! Well, SURE he bit it, but that isn't a "box".
He also hit that guy in the face and gut a bunch o' times, but those don't
count as 'boxes' either. So Mike wasn't "boxing". THERE AIN'T NO SUCH
THING!!!
Dustin, better read Swift to get fresh material
apoweyn
If your objection is with the term, that's your right. And it's
their right to use it anyway.
If your objection is that the art being practiced under that name
is illegitimate, then you're unlikely to resolve the dispute with
a dictionary. If it's an empty-hand system that draws upon
legitimate FMA practices and concepts, then panantukan is as good
a name as any.
But since we're on the subject, how do you feel about these
terms, also applied to empty-handed FMA?:
pangamot
pananjakman
mano mano
Russ Rader
<20000410173942...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
>
>Read Philippine martial art history for these. It's been legit for the last
300
>years and so. And where does Panantukan exist at that time? I don't know,
don't
>ask me. Oh yes, I remember....... Panantukan means boxing and not a
Filipino
>art. There's no such thing as Panantukan Filipino martial art. Only
Panantukan
>which means boxing in general.
Have you considered the fact that in some cultures in Asia, "boxing" means
fighting in general? You ever heard of Chinese Boxing as a general term for
kung fu? You think it doesn't involve kicks?
>Karate and jiu Jitsu are just supplements and not part of Arnis. Modern
Arnis
>is LEGIT in it's OWN right but not Panantukan. I have to say this as many
times
>as i want but like i've said over and over again, PANANTUKAN means boxing,
just
>boxing in general and not a Filipino art.
I would still bet on a panantukan practitioner to beat a Modern Arnis
practitioner in a fight. Unless, perhaps, the Arnisador beats the "boxer"
upside the head with a Tagalog-English dictionary.
Russ
Myers4321
>by>Leo James English C.Ss.R. Copyright 1986 Printed by Kalayan Press Mktg.
Ent.,
>Inc. 58 Kalayaan St., Diliman, Quezon City, Philippines that I've purchased a
>year ago.
>SUNTOK (Panantukan) - a blow, punch or hit with the FIST.
>Panantukan is Suntok in another Filipino local dialect.
>So it is boxing.
----OK. So you still want to play the semantics game. I looked some stuff up
for you in my Spanish dictionary:
1. esgrima (escrima): fencing
2. arnes (arnis): armor, coat of mail; harness
Now according to your rigid standards of semantic use, neither of those terms
should be used to refer to a Filipino martial art because they are not very
descriptive of what is really going on. Especially "arnis."
But you continue to ignore such points and instead want to adhere to these
silly word games. I guess my previous comment about "Mano Y Baston Escrima"
went completely over your head.
>>----"Sipa" in some systems refers specifically to a cross/oblique kick from
>>the>>rear leg. In your micro-analysis of words wouldn't this suggest that
your
>>kickboxing style only has one kick?
>
>
>
>Sir. Sipa means KICK it's not an oblique kick. It can be any kind of kick.
>SIPA - a kick; a striking with the foot. Taken from "Filipino-English
>dictionary by Leo James English C.Ss.R. Copyright 1986"
>So it's NOT a specific kick (oblique kick) like what you've said. Remember
>that>not all what your instructor tells you is right. If he tells you to jump
off
>the bridge will you do it? For some obvious reason I won't. Will you? If he
>tells you that Panantukan means dancing will you believe him?
----Notice I said "in some systems" Not everyone goes by exact dictionary
definitions like you do. Someone told you that Panantukan does not exist and
you have taken that idea and run with it despite all the evidence to the
contrary. So I should be asking you those questions: If someone told you to
jump off a bridge would you do it? If someone told you that Panantukan
referred ONLY to western boxing would you believe it? Obviously you would. I
believe that Panantukan exists because I HAVE STUDIED IT and I PRACTICE IT!!!
It is not exactly the same as western boxing. But you seem to keep ignoring
that point.
>Read Philippine martial art history for these. It's been legit for the last
>300>years and so. And where does Panantukan exist at that time?
----I guess that's about as close as you're going to come in defining what you
mean by "legit," since I've asked you several times and you've just ignored
the question. So it seems something has to have a 300 year history in the
Philippines to be legit?
OK, then I guess Modern Arnis as formulated by Remy Presas isn't legit because
its only about 25-30 years old...and Serrada Escrima as formulated by Angel
Cabales isn't legit because its only about 50 years old...and Lameco Escrima as
formulated by Edgar Sulite is even less legit because its only about 15 years
old.
Panantukan means boxing and not a Filipino>art. There's no such thing as
Panantukan Filipino martial art. Only
>Panantukan>which means boxing in general.
----Why can't you get it thru your thick head that word uses change?
Especially when used by non-native speakers. The Filipino's are a perfect
example. Look at all the spanish words that have been incorporated that no
longer mean exactly what they originally did. You see this thru-out the
martial arts as Dustin pointed out. Use a little common sense! Tai Chi Chuan
means the "grand ultimate fist", but it certainly includes more than punching!
Karate means "empty hand", but I've certainly seen them use "empty feet" as
well! Heck, I've even seen them use weapons!! Panandata is a term now used to
refer to a weapons system in general. Doesn't it makes sense that Panantukan
would come to be used to mean a empty-hand system in general?
>Arnis is a legit Filipino martial art compare to Panantukan w/c actullly>means
>boxing and not a Filipino art. Read above again. Suntok/Panantukan means
>boxing.
----You read above. Arnis means armor, harness, or coat of mail. So I guess
it can't be a legit FMA either. Escrima means fencing. I guess it can't be a
legit FMA either. At least by your standards.
>The word Arnis was and is an official martial art of the Philippines. The
>head>or president at that time (Marcos regime) of a big Arnis organization is
Gen.
>Fabian Ver (a high ranking official of the Philippine government) who put
>Arnis>as a P.E. curiculum for most school in the Philippines at that time.
---Ah....are you suggesting that the spanish word "arnes" has been adapted and
given a new meaning? Imagine that!!!
And>where>do you put Panantukan today in the Philippines? In the BOXING ring.
----I don't know. I've never been to the Philippines. But I do know that in
the US it is part of the curriculum in some of the biggest and most successful
FMA academies. There have been videos and a book on it. That makes it legit
here, despite whatever its status may be in the Philippines.
>So you mean to say I have to ask Japanese, Spanish, Egyptian people rather
>than
>asking it to some Filipinos??? DOH!
---No genius. I'm suggesting that perhaps you should be asking the Filipinos
that actually practice it and teach it!
>PANANTUKAN is not a legit art. It only means "BOXING" in general, folks.
----That's right folks. And Escrima is not legit because it only means spanish
fencing. And Arnis is not legit because it refers to spanish armor. And this
guy is not legit because he obviously has a screw loose! :-)
Keith
apoweyn
the Philippines for 300 odd years, and are therefore "legit."
But, as most of you already know, those are largely generic
terms. There are many specific systems that aren't that old, as
Myers4321 pointed out. Serrada, Lameco, and Modern Arnis aren't
that old. The system that I studied, Doce Pares, is not that
old. I was told by Ciriaco Canete that the term Doce Pares was
coined at a meeting in Cebu in, I believe, 1964 (though I could
be mistaken on the date, but not by 300 years). The system that
he since named Eskrido is newer still. And eskrido isn't even a
filipino word. It's a combination of japanese and filipino
terminology. But I would dissuade anyone from telling Ciriaco
Canete that it is, therefore, illegitimate.
Slasher seems to have a chip on his shoulders about this
panantukan. And if it's because he came across some group that
claims to practice it, and they're imposters milking an art that
he's devoted real time and practice to, then I can totally
understand why he'd have a problem. But to dismiss the term, the
style, and all of the WORTHY practitioners that operate under
that name is simply small minded.
Zarathud the Reclining
didn't speak the same language to have a common notation for movement.
I'm not saying any individual has to learn a language in order to learn
an art well -- necessarily. But, if you're going to lecture on culture,
is it unreasonable to take the little time to pronounce a word
correctly? For instance, in Tagalog, just changing the accent on a
2-syllable word changes the meaning from "vinegar" to "vomit". Hey, if
a person is a teacher, he/she should master the material.
In article <8cob53$fml$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
"Russ Rader" <rlr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Zarathud the Reclining wrote in message
<8cmhi3$hfq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >I read a magazine article not long ago. Titled "The Southeast Asian
> >Martial Arts", it was by Bob Dubljanin and appeared in Martial Arts &
> >Combat Sports, January 2000.
> >
> >Here's a quote:
> >
> > "To understand your martial art, you must understand the
> > philosophy of that martial art. To understand the
> > philosophy you must understand the culture it came from.
> > To understand the culture it came from, you must
> > understand the history of that culture."
> > -- Guro Cass Magda
> >
> >As I understand it Cass Magda was (is?) an Inosanto student. He
seems
> >to have written some good article on silat. Anyway, one of
Inosanto's
> >own students seems to be of the opinion that the little details
matter.
>
> Yeah, and Cass Magda is (was, whatever) one of many of Guru Dan's
students,
> in a program (JKD Concepts) that encourages every student to go their
own
> way. That is Cass Magda's way. Fine by me. I'm not interested in
culture,
> head games, art, or any of that. I'm interested in learning
self-defense,
> and that's it. That is my way.
>
> >No, it matters. Read Inosanto's book again. He makes a big deal
about
> >the cultural importance.
>
> He's a Visayan. Filipino culture is going to be more important to him
than
> it would be to me.
>
> >So when he mangles the language, it seems
> >very incongruous.
>
> I don't speak dozens of languages fluently either, so I'm not going to
judge
> him for that. Saying "strike #1" works for me; I don't need to know
how to
> say it in 50 Filipino dialects.
>
> >Now, I've met him and he is indeed a nice guy. That
> >has nothing to do with any of this.
>
> We agree on something.
>
> Russ
>
>
--
Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not
a crime. -- Ernest Hemingway
Zarathud the Reclining
In article <38F04EC5...@cutthisspamblock.fdp.co.za>,
afriKan <b...@cutthisspamblock.fdp.co.za> wrote:
> Zarathud the Reclining wrote:
> >
> > Here's a quote:
> >
> > "To understand your martial art, you must understand the
> > philosophy of that martial art. To understand the
> > philosophy you must understand the culture it came from.
> > To understand the culture it came from, you must
> > understand the history of that culture."
> > -- Guro Cass Magda
> >
>
> "To defeat a marital art, you must ignore the philosophy of that
> art, forget about the culture it came from, and disregard the
> history of that culture. Only that way will it come down to
> a contest of strength and skill between one man and another"
> -- Guru Bruce Klette
>
> I know I am stirring a bit, but I
> actually believe in my quote far more than I do in his :).
>
> Bruce.
>
> --
> The mfw challenge: http://www.icon.co.za/~klette/
>
--
Zarathud the Reclining
the other side of the "absorb what is useful" cliche. As Chas notes in
a juru what the unitiated takes as a salute is actually a defensive
move. Now imagine a student who decides that's a superfluous detail.
He goes off and teaches this to others. The dilution begins.
Zarathud the Reclining
No judgement here. If you're out to sell your art, that's your
business.
The 3 elders whom I consider my closest teachers all told me not to take
money. One I've been with for 17 years now. Every time I visit, he and
his wife insist I have something to eat. One well-known kali teacher
upbraided me. He said I was blindly loyal to this other teacher. I
told him I was loyal, but not blind. My teacher has, for all these
years treated me as family. That deserves loyalty. Money will never
buy that experience.
Zarathud the Reclining
already have a word for it in their own language. Presumably, there's
some restaurant in Japan that wants to make their own yakitori dish
sound exotic to Japanese, so they might start calling it by a foreign
name. It's done all the time.
In article <8cqkqs$g0e$2...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
"Russ Rader" <rlr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Slasher2129 wrote in message
> <20000408192610...@ng-ci1.aol.com>...
>
> >>Boxing that uses elbows, knees, low kicks, whatever. >Sounds
different
> from
> >>Western boxing to me.
> >
> >Well isn't that kickboxing? Why not call it kickboxing then.
>
> Your argument sounds like this: Yakitori is meat on a stick. Shish
kabob
> is meat on a stick. Why don't those damned Japs just call it shish
kabob?
>
> Russ
>
>
--
Zarathud the Reclining
> ---Man! I ask again: WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO HUNG UP ON A WORD????
> One last time:
>
> >But let me explain it this way. PANANTUKAN is a BOXING word in one of
> many>Filipino dialects.
Not hung up on it at all. Why, when your first language is English, do
you go out to find a name you can't even pronounce right?
Russ Rader
>Yup. We are in agreement. The numbering system is a way for folks who
>didn't speak the same language to have a common notation for movement.
Actually, I think the numbering came from the Western sword fighting arts
that the Philippines absorbed. At least, I've never seen an art from a
Malay culture other than the Philippines that used a numbering system.
>I'm not saying any individual has to learn a language in order to learn
>an art well -- necessarily. But, if you're going to lecture on culture,
>is it unreasonable to take the little time to pronounce a word
>correctly?
Maybe he pronounced the words the way they were taught to him by his
teachers? Maybe he didn't sweat the words, because he was too busy learning
how to fight?
>For instance, in Tagalog, just changing the accent on a
>2-syllable word changes the meaning from "vinegar" to "vomit". Hey, if
>a person is a teacher, he/she should master the material.
The martial arts material, or spelling bee material?
Russ
Myers4321
>> One last time:
>>
>> >But let me explain it this way. PANANTUKAN is a BOXING word in one of
>> many>Filipino dialects.
>
>Not hung up on it at all. Why, when your first language is English, do
>you go out to find a name you can't even pronounce right?
---WOW! You are pretty amazing! You can hear me pronouncing words as I sit
here in front of my computer! What am I saying now? :-)
Keith
Chas
> So, over time, as each generation forgets or ignores one detail, This is
> the other side of the "absorb what is useful" cliche. As Chas notes in
> a juru what the unitiated takes as a salute is actually a defensive
> move. Now imagine a student who decides that's a superfluous detail.
> He goes off and teaches this to others. The dilution begins.
I believe that's true.
I can generate a 'willing suspension of disbelief' pretty easily (as you
can see from some of the other posts ;-) I think that one should take
the advisements of one's teachers without demur until the action has
been practiced and refined- _then_, if it is unsuitable, discard it.
I believe it is presumptuous/non-productive for a student to believe
that he is a better arbiter of what is useful than someone with a proven
track record of fighting. My own training has been with fighters, not
'dancers', so I had a good model that what they were teaching had a good
affect for my training. It is probably less useful if one is studying
with a 3rd generation dojoblackbelt who has never used his art in life.
Chas