Is Goshin Do/Jitsu legitimate?
David Neal
A friend of mine takes this style in Greensboro, NC. He's been having
trouble getting the facts on the history of the style, and asked if
I'd inquire for him.
His instructor, Ralph Porfilio, says that he learned it from some guy
named Durant in Erie, PA, and claims that Durant learned it in Japan.
But Porfilio can't/won't explain who Durant's sensei in Japan was, or
what that instructor's lineage was. He doesn't know what rank Durant
was promoted to in Japan (if any) and by whom. Neither can/will
Porfilio state what exactly the style was called in japan (for
instance, kung-fu, kempo, goju, isshin-ryu, etc.). All he'll say it
that it's the exact same style as the Samurai did.
Also, the katas are always being changed, and Porfilio doesn't know
what the names of them mean and gives vage, conflicting stories about
where they came from. This all sounds kinda fishy. Or maybe he's (my
friend) is just missing a bunch of information.
Is anyone on here familiar with this style? Can anyone give my friend
some insight or information on the style?
Thanks
Sendim
David Neal <37...@aol.com> escreveu no artigo
<346eec42...@news.nr.infi.net>...
...doubts about goshin do/jitsu...
There is a book from Kenji Tokitsu ("La Voie du Karate") where it is said
that "goshin do/jitsu" are a "way-of-doing" more than a style in
themselves:
goshin = self-defense; jutsu = techniques, method; do = path, the Way
"Goshin" is a notion for setting apart "sports-karate" and
"self-defense-karate". As for "do/jitsu", it is just the distinction we
already do between "karate-jutsu" and "karate-do", "ju-jitsu" and "ju-do",
"aiki-jitsu" and "aiki-do", "ken-jutsu" and "ken-do"...
Kenji Tokitsu is 7th dan and created a style, Shorin-mon (previously
"Shaolin-mon") which tries, in fact, to go back to the goshin spirit. They
use the old versions of Shotokan kata, and incorporate in their training a
lot of Tai ji quan, Aikido and Kendo notions. The training is not as hard
as in the typical Japanese styles, because it is more oriented towards
"aging well" than "being a champ".
I don't practice this style myself, but am familiar with Kenji Tokitsu
ideas and methods, and have some friends who practice Shorin-mon.
Therefore, if the way your friend describes his training under Mr. Porfilio
seems to be the one I told you about, he may be pretty sure the style is
"somehow near" Shorin-mon.
If you allow me, I would like to add that it is a sad thing when a martial
art instructor can't trace is "lineage" or can't give you at least a resumé
of his style history. However, sometimes you may indeed find people who can
teach you a lot of god things, even if they don't impress you with their
theoretical knowledge... Only time and a very attentive mind can tell...
Miguel Sendim
David Neal
On 6 Nov 1997 18:26:08 GMT, "Sendim" <mop3...@mail.telepac.pt> wrote:
>If you allow me, I would like to add that it is a sad thing when a martial
>art instructor can't trace is "lineage" or can't give you at least a resumé
>of his style history. However, sometimes you may indeed find people who can
>teach you a lot of god things, even if they don't impress you with their
>theoretical knowledge... Only time and a very attentive mind can tell...
Yes. My friend is starting to think something is amiss. But he does
say that he feels he is learning some efffective techniques. He's just
increasingly at a loss trying to explain his style to other martial
artists, since all of them can honestly trace their "lineage" back to
Japan (or in the case of TKD, to Korea). He can't even name the
founder of his style...
Any thoughts?
David Neal
On 7 Nov 1997 16:16:36 GMT, gosh...@aol.com (GoshinTn) wrote:
>As to the question on Goshin it is a real art ? and GM Durant is very real.
> My sensai studied under J. Durant for several years, but since his death I
> seen severl splinter arts come out . I've studied Goshin Jutsu Karate for 22
> years now and the katas haven't change and no one I know , knows who this
> person is in N.C, but I have seen several bad notes on that school posted in
> this newsgroup.
That's odd. Perhaps there are two Durants? According to my friend, Mr.
Porfilio states that he is the head of the Goshin system. The only way
I can see that no one else in Goshin has ever heard of Porfilio is if
there are maybe two totally different styles around, with totally
different histories, but coincidentally the same name. Odd though that
the Durant name comes up in both...
My friend has been told that the katas he is learning from Mr.
Porfilio are the same ones done by the samurai outside their castles
centuries ago, and are being taught today unchanged from that time in
the Goshin system.
Does this sound like the same system you're studying?
David Neal
GoshinTn
there are not two Durannts I've meet him a few times and He Is Very Real and
since his death who knows what happen, any and all are using the name goshin
and starting their own system , so when that happens I guess they are the head
of that system? I guess?
Sendim
Hello, GoshinTn !
I've been looking for a style named Goshin Jutsu in my "papers", but so far
I wasn't able to go beyond what I wrote some days ago.
Could you tell me something more about it ?
Best regards
Miguel Sendim
A.H.Diamantstein
does this system contain the term "Samurai kata?"
A.H.
David Neal
Thanks, everyone for their replies. My friend is still hoping to learn
more about the history of this style. Here are some of the specific
questions he asked me to post:
1. Does anyone know if this instructor in Greensboro, Ralph Porfilio,
studied under the J Durant who lived in Erie?
2. What rank, if any, did Porfilio earn under Durant?
3. Did Durant really study in Japan? Under whom, and what lineage did
that instructor have?
4. What rank was Durant was promoted to in Japan? If he was 10th Dan
when he died, who promoted him to that station?
5. What exactly the style was called in japan (for instance, kung-fu,
kempo, goju, isshin-ryu, etc.). All Porfilio will say it that it's the
exact same style as the Samurai did.
6. What do the names of the katas mean? For instance, the first four
katas are called Hajimente, Futasu, Ichi Bondo and Mitsu. What do
these names mean?
If anyone could provide some information on this style, their help
would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
Devhop
The only art that I have heard of that sounds like this is an art that was
originally taught by William Chow and passed on to Bill Chun, Sr. I believe
that Mr. Chun has passed away but his son, Bill Chun, Jr. is now teaching the
art. It is called Go Shin Jitsu, and it means "way of self defense" or
"method of self defense" if my notes are right.
Sendim
Hello, David Neal !
This Goshin Do/Jutsu question is becoming very interesting !
Have you seen yet JDTate and AHDiamantstein posts ?
Best regards
Miguel Sendim
medic
In article <346e7c1a...@news.nr.infi.net>, 37...@aol.com (David Neal)
wrote:
GM Gerand Durante who died in 1991/92 taught an art called Goshin jitsu kyo
jujo. This style/art is now headed by his son Dai Soke Durante in PA. The
style incorporate much of the daito ryu aikijitsu teachings as well as many
karate teachings, most of which seem to be Shotokan in orgin or thereabouts.
There are many arts/styles that are off shoots of this art style including Tatsu
Do Aikijitsu, Tatsu Do Karate, Goshin Senjitsu, Goshin Do etc. There is an
organization run by Dai Soke in PA. Need more info, just ask.
David Neal
According to my friend, yes and no. Verbally, yes, the instructor
specifically claims that he's teaching the same stuff as the samurai
did outside their castles, as opposed to all other "modern-day"
styles, which he claims are not traditional. But, no, he resists any
suggestion to put the history (including the
handed-down-from-the-samurai part) of the Goshin Do system in writing.
My friend just told me that Porfilio has even forbidden his students
from posting a web page about the school. Hmmmm
Todd D. Ellner
In article <34664353...@news.nr.infi.net>,
David Neal <37...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Nov 1997 16:24:11 -0800, "A.H.Diamantstein"
><Hen...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>does this system contain the term "Samurai kata?"
>from posting a web page about the school. Hmmmm
So, where is this school, and when do they hold classes?
Todd
--
Todd Ellner | The man who never alters his opinion is like the
tel...@cs.pdx.edu | stagnant water and breeds Reptiles of the mind.
(503)557-1572 | --William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
David Neal
On 9 Nov 1997 19:17:46 GMT, me...@unknown.address.com (medic) wrote:
>
>GM Gerand Durante who died in 1991/92 taught an art called Goshin jitsu kyo
>jujo. This style/art is now headed by his son Dai Soke Durante in PA. The
>style incorporate much of the daito ryu aikijitsu teachings as well as many
>karate teachings, most of which seem to be Shotokan in orgin or thereabouts.
>There are many arts/styles that are off shoots of this art style including Tatsu
>Do Aikijitsu, Tatsu Do Karate, Goshin Senjitsu, Goshin Do etc. There is an
>organization run by Dai Soke in PA. Need more info, just ask.
Thank you so much for the information.
Is there a samurai influence on the system? Mr. Porfilio has
apparently stated quite clearly to present and prospective students on
a number of occasions that the style and katas were done by the
samurai and were handed down through Durant to him. Honestly, is that
really true? It does sound a little far-fetched that the Japanese
would teach an enemy American GI their most sacred martial arts
traditions. Can you tell us who Durant's sensei was in Japan? How
long did he study there, and how and by whom did he get promoted after
returning to the US?
Thanks!
GoshinTn
I working on getting more detailed information on the Goshin Jutsu style, when
I started karate in the mid 70's it was called Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo, I
studied under Joe Brague who studied directly with G.M. Durant in Erie Pa. A
few years later after I started Sensai Brague and G.M. Durant had a falling
out but by then my sensai was an 6th dan under Durant, so kept teaching his
students under the name of Goshin Jutsu Karate, what the other masters under
Durant did,is unknown to me, and really it doesn't matter..The Goshin Jutsu
karate system has several schools and hunderds of students and blackbelts all
under Joe Brauge,who is one of the few true martial arts masters in the USA
medic
At this time the history I have is somewhat brief, but a Renshi I trained with
in this style is to get back to me. The word passed down to the students and BB
is that the GM trained in Japan in and around the end of WWII. He supposedly
initially went AWOL from the military for a period when he started training. The
system in regards to samuri kata is unknown to me. The only info in response to
samuri were the fighting techniques that they did learn in regards to self
defense, ie such as daito ryu aikijitsu skills, Iaido, and Atemies etc. The
katas in the style off shoot that I trained in included all of the following:
Heinan 1-5, Taikayoku 1-3, Tekki 1-3, Kuru runfa, Saifa, Nijushiho, Rohaidai,
Inchi Bo, Tensho, Jion, etc. GM Durante's given name Japanese name was
supposedly Kyote Durante????. I hope to have more info soon as I can not find
some ancient info on the style I thought I had.
Scroppokai
>GM Gerand Durante who died in 1991/92 taught an art called Goshin jitsu kyo
>jujo. This style/art is now headed by his son Dai Soke Durante in PA. The
>style incorporate much of the daito ryu aikijitsu teachings as well as many
>karate teachings, most of which seem to be Shotokan in orgin or thereabouts.
>There are many arts/styles that are off shoots of this art style including
>Tatsu
>Do Aikijitsu, Tatsu Do Karate, Goshin Senjitsu, Goshin Do etc. There is an
>organization run by Dai Soke in PA. Need more info, just ask.
>
>
>
>
>
So now, Goshin jitsu kyo jujo also includes Daito-ryu,along with Shotokan
karate? With whom did Durant study Daito-ryu, or Shotokan? This all sounds
highly suspect to me.
Contrary to much Western martial mythology, there's no close relationship
between karate and AJJ except in the minds of those self-appointed soke's, and
grandmasters, whose histories, teachers, and credentials are neither known nor
verifiable.
Students whose teachers cannot provide factual information on the backgrounds
of their arts should exercise extreme discretion, and look for legitimate
teachers and schools to further their martial training with.
BK
David Neal
On 12 Nov 1997 07:11:16 GMT, scrop...@aol.com (Scroppokai) wrote:
>I seriously doubt that Mr. Durant studied any Daito-ryu in Japan at that time,
> or later (even IF he did, his rank could not have been sufficient to make him
> a "grandmaster" of any sort). He may have likely studied some karate, aikido,
> or judo. Judo by the way has a series of kata called "goshin jutsu" many
> American servicemen studied these arts. Some even got blackbelts, but very few
> ever became "masters".
We were wondering how any American would have been learning any REAL
traditional martial arts there during WWII, since were were at war
with Japan...why would they teach thier enemies their secrets???
>Also, contrary to popular belief Aiki-jitsu, Aikijujutsu, etc... IS NOT a
> mixture of karate punches and kicks with aikido, and/or judo. AND Karate was
> NOT practiced by the Samurai.
Hmm, well this is clearly a claim that Mr. Porfilio makes, this
"handed-down-from-the samurai" thing.
My friend is saddened to discover that his "sensei" is perhaps not
what he represented himself to be. He feels betrayed that he had been
lied to. He says that there are a lot of other problems at the school
involving an apparent lack of ethics on Porfilio's part, and now, with
this new information, he feel it's not the right place for him and his
family. He is going to look for another school.
David Neal
On 12 Nov 1997 06:54:12 GMT, scrop...@aol.com (Scroppokai) wrote:
>>GM Gerand Durante who died in 1991/92 taught an art called Goshin jitsu kyo
>>jujo. This style/art is now headed by his son Dai Soke Durante in PA. The
>>style incorporate much of the daito ryu aikijitsu teachings as well as many
>>karate teachings, most of which seem to be Shotokan in orgin or thereabouts.
>>There are many arts/styles that are off shoots of this art style including
>>Tatsu
>>Do Aikijitsu, Tatsu Do Karate, Goshin Senjitsu, Goshin Do etc. There is an
>>organization run by Dai Soke in PA. Need more info, just ask.
>>
>So now, Goshin jitsu kyo jujo also includes Daito-ryu,along with Shotokan
> karate? With whom did Durant study Daito-ryu, or Shotokan? This all sounds
> highly suspect to me.
This is what I can't get anyone to answer, even Durant's staunch
supporters. There is apparently NO ONE who can trace Durant's
lineage. It sounds to me like he just learned some basic karate in the
army, along with all the other grunts, then came back to the states
and declared himself some kind of bogus "grandmaster". What does
"goshin jitsu kyo jujo" mean, anyway? I've never heard of a style by
that name taught in Japan...
>Contrary to much Western martial mythology, there's no close relationship
> between karate and AJJ except in the minds of those self-appointed soke's, and
> grandmasters, whose histories, teachers, and credentials are neither known nor
> verifiable.
>
>Students whose teachers cannot provide factual information on the backgrounds
> of their arts should exercise extreme discretion, and look for legitimate
> teachers and schools to further their martial training with.
I agree. Sadly, my friend (the student of Porfilio's for whom I posted
these queries) has come to the conclusion that he's been duped. He
will be looking for another place to train.
wwtwo...@gmail.com
JQ
> I took under Ralph back in the early 90's? when he was on Colesium Blvd. He always use to say he taught "the hand to hand part of the Samuri" He said Tamashiwara a lot back then. I barely remember him ever really talking about where he learned. He liked to say he Americanized it so we would have a better understanding of what was going on. sorry I can't help more.
--
Kocho Sensei JQ
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Yes there are Japanese Ryu that use Goshin do jitsu in their names.