Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
be...@bele.com
I have just started practicing Goju Ryu Karate, and have never
practiced any type of Martial Arts. I enjoy what I am doing very
much, however having investigated a little bit more about Martial Arts
I have come across the Wing Chun style.
As I am not very knowledgeable on understanding the differences in the
styles, I ask if anyone who perhaps knows a bit about the two could
explain me what differentiates one from the other. (Apart from one
being Japanese and the other Chinese)
Thank You
cmo...@hotmail.com
In article <352257b6...@news.hcl.com>, be...@bele.com wrote: > >
>Dear Bele, Wing Chun and Goju ryu both descend from the Shaolin
school/family of martial arts. Goju ryu in particular is derived from
several Shaolin sources: Monk Fist, White Crane, Tiger/Dragon fist, &c. The
principal reference source for the art of Goju is the Chinese/Okinawan text,
Bubushi. Wing Chun is a Shaolin system dating from the 18th century, and
shares many of the same source influences as Goju ryu. Wing Chun was
conceptualized and structured to be more economical in technique and movement
in contrast with the traditional forms of Shaolin. For more info check out
the wumenkuan kung-fu website at www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8069
sincerely, Cmotobu >
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Hyo1
I don't see that big a difference in the two styles, maybe except one is alot
more fluid in technique than the other. I had a Sensei that was taking Wing
Chun while teaching Goju out at a Dojo in Cheney Washington, he showed me
several things from Wing Chun and then I was invited to attend one of his
training sessions in Wing Chun, they are taught in a different way than one
another, but they're basically from the same origin, several of the blocks and
strikes in wing chun are the same as in Goju...
D.C.S.
IIias
Hyo1 wrote:
nope....not even close....
> several of the blocks and
> strikes in wing chun are the same as in Goju...
just for the record, there are no 'blocks' in WT/WC...only 8 passive
reactions...and what to an outsider might look like a block e.g. pak sao, is
actually not a block per se but an attack....
WT is desined to nullify the force/energy of the opponent and this can in no way
be achieved through blocks,
at least in the way they are practiced in most traditional Karate styles....
>
>
>
>
> D.C.S.
regards,
Ilias
Steve Godfrey
>I don't see that big a difference in the two styles, maybe except one is
alot
>more fluid in technique than the other. I had a Sensei that was taking Wing
>Chun while teaching Goju out at a Dojo in Cheney Washington, he showed me
>several things from Wing Chun and then I was invited to attend one of his
>training sessions in Wing Chun, they are taught in a different way than one
and
>strikes in wing chun are the same as in Goju...
>
>
>
Very good answer
Steve Godfrey
Limbo
>
> just for the record, there are no 'blocks' in WT/WC...only 8 passive
> reactions...and what to an outsider might look like a block e.g. pak sao, is
> actually not a block per se but an attack....
> WT is desined to nullify the force/energy of the opponent and this can
in no way
> be achieved through blocks,
> at least in the way they are practiced in most traditional Karate styles....
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > D.C.S.
>
> regards,
> Ilias
Shhhhh! They're "quei lo" man. ;)
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>From: IIias <ika...@ikaras.com>
>Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 06:40 EST
>Message-id: <3524BCAC...@ikaras.com>
>
>
>
>Hyo1 wrote:
>
>> >I have just started practicing Goju Ryu Karate, and have never
>> >practiced any type of Martial Arts. I enjoy what I am doing very
>> >much, however having investigated a little bit more about Martial Arts
>> >I have come across the Wing Chun style.
>> >
>> >As I am not very knowledgeable on understanding the differences in the
>> >styles, I ask if anyone who perhaps knows a bit about the two could
>> >explain me what differentiates one from the other. (Apart from one
>> >being Japanese and the other Chinese)
>> >
>> >
>> >Thank You
>>
>alot
>> more fluid in technique than the other. I had a Sensei that was taking Wing
>> Chun while teaching Goju out at a Dojo in Cheney Washington, he showed me
>> several things from Wing Chun and then I was invited to attend one of his
>> training sessions in Wing Chun, they are taught in a different way than one
>> another, but they're basically from the same origin,
>
>
>> several of the blocks and
>> strikes in wing chun are the same as in Goju...
>
>reactions...and what to an outsider might look like a block e.g. pak sao, is
>actually not a block per se but an attack....
>WT is desined to nullify the force/energy of the opponent and this can in no
>way
>be achieved through blocks,
>at least in the way they are practiced in most traditional Karate styles....
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> D.C.S.
>
> regards,
>Ilias
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>From: IIias <ika...@ikaras.com>
>Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 06:40 EST
>Message-id: <3524BCAC...@ikaras.com>
>
>
>
>Hyo1 wrote:
>
>> >I have just started practicing Goju Ryu Karate, and have never
>> >practiced any type of Martial Arts. I enjoy what I am doing very
>> >much, however having investigated a little bit more about Martial Arts
>> >I have come across the Wing Chun style.
>> >
>> >As I am not very knowledgeable on understanding the differences in the
>> >styles, I ask if anyone who perhaps knows a bit about the two could
>> >explain me what differentiates one from the other. (Apart from one
>> >being Japanese and the other Chinese)
>> >
>> >
>> >Thank You
>>
>> I don't see that big a difference in the two styles, maybe except one is
>alot
>> more fluid in technique than the other. I had a Sensei that was taking Wing
>> Chun while teaching Goju out at a Dojo in Cheney Washington, he showed me
>> several things from Wing Chun and then I was invited to attend one of his
>> training sessions in Wing Chun, they are taught in a different way than one
>> another, but they're basically from the same origin,
>
>nope....not even close....
>
>> several of the blocks and
>> strikes in wing chun are the same as in Goju...
>
>just for the record, there are no 'blocks' in WT/WC...only 8 passive
>reactions...and what to an outsider might look like a block e.g. pak sao, is
>actually not a block per se but an attack....
>WT is desined to nullify the force/energy of the opponent and this can in no
>way
>be achieved through blocks,
>at least in the way they are practiced in most traditional Karate styles....
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> D.C.S.
>
> regards,
>Ilias
>
Goju "blocks" are quite unlike Shotokan blocks. Since Goju Ryu (hard/soft
style) incorporates both hard and soft it does pratice hard blocks, but they
really are seldom used. It uses white crane style style parries (typically
with the back rather than front hand) and uses traps and sticky hands.
Ideally, punching at a Goju artist should feel like punching at a tar baby--
you are suddenly stuck up to your elbows and then he starts hitting you with
elbows and knees.
Goju is also an internal style.
The primary difference between Goju and its Chinese sister arts is that it
uses Japanese footwork and is almost always on the balls of the feet even when
receiving attacks. This tends to making it more aggressive, counterattacking
deep into attacks even to the point of torso contact. Needless to say this
almost always results in a throw or at least a shove.
MAllen5904
>Goju "blocks" are quite unlike Shotokan blocks. Since Goju Ryu (hard/soft
>style) incorporates both hard and soft it does pratice hard blocks, but they
>really are seldom used. It uses white crane style style parries (typically
>with the back rather than front hand) and uses traps and sticky hands.
>Ideally, punching at a Goju artist should feel like punching at a tar baby--
>you are suddenly stuck up to your elbows and then he starts hitting you with
>elbows and knees.
>
>Goju is also an internal style.
>
>The primary difference between Goju and its Chinese sister arts is that it
>uses Japanese footwork and is almost always on the balls of the feet even
>when
>receiving attacks. This tends to making it more aggressive, counterattacking
>deep into attacks even to the point of torso contact. Needless to say this
>almost always results in a throw or at least a shove.
Me:
I don't know stephie, Goju blocks aren't too much different
from Shotokan. They might tend to look more circlar to a Goju
stylist than they would from someone who knows little about
karate. In constrast, WC's are quite different because this
is a trapping hands style which the Okinowan/ Japanese
systems are lacking in the area of having anykind of trapping
skills. There is this Ki/Chi similariety but you'll find it more
so in WC because the system deals with sensitivity to your
opponent's energy,in constrast, Goju has a more rock um
sock um approach to fighting. WC, also, deals a lot on controlling
centerline where as in all my years in Goju this conscept never
was brought up. The point you make about Goju being more
aggressive is true but to a good WC practisioner this would
make it easier to defeat you because you're doing most of
the work for them. I like to see a good Goju person work out
on a WC Dummy. Haaaah ! now I'm being cruel ; )
Mallen
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 10:04 EST
>Message-id: <199804041504...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
>
>>Goju "blocks" are quite unlike Shotokan blocks. Since Goju Ryu (hard/soft
>>style) incorporates both hard and soft it does pratice hard blocks, but they
>>really are seldom used. It uses white crane style style parries (typically
>>with the back rather than front hand) and uses traps and sticky hands.
>>Ideally, punching at a Goju artist should feel like punching at a tar baby--
>>you are suddenly stuck up to your elbows and then he starts hitting you with
>>elbows and knees.
>>
>>Goju is also an internal style.
>>
>>The primary difference between Goju and its Chinese sister arts is that it
>>uses Japanese footwork and is almost always on the balls of the feet even
>>when
>>receiving attacks. This tends to making it more aggressive,
>counterattacking
>>deep into attacks even to the point of torso contact. Needless to say this
>>almost always results in a throw or at least a shove.
>
>Me:
>
> I don't know stephie, Goju blocks aren't too much different
>from Shotokan.
The beginner blocks ARE Shurite (Shotokan). We have talked about this before,
and your idea of Goju seems very basic to me, essentially like Shotokan is to
Shuri-te. Okinawan karate is very subtle, perhaps it didn't make it across the
Pacific intact.
>They might tend to look more circlar to a Goju
>stylist than they would from someone who knows little about
>karate. In constrast, WC's are quite different because this
>is a trapping hands style which the Okinowan/ Japanese
>systems are lacking in the area of having anykind of trapping
>skills.
Okinawan karate uses soft trappling blocks much more than most people think.
Shotokan is pretty much alone in its crude hard block approach.
Except for beginners, Goju blocks are all soft and trapping. We practice
sticky hands and push hands just like the Chinese styles. Goju is essentially
a Chinese style with Japanese feet. The energy trapping, absortion, and
reflection is very Chinese.
Blocking with the back hand is very Chinese.
> There is this Ki/Chi similariety but you'll find it more
>so in WC because the system deals with sensitivity to your
>opponent's energy,in constrast, Goju has a more rock um
>sock um approach to fighting. WC, also, deals a lot on controlling
>centerline where as in all my years in Goju this conscept never
>was brought up.
Centerline is not usually mentioned explicitly, but it is implicit in footwork
and blocks. Goju is a very interesting system because it combines the very
subtle trapping parries with extremely hard and fierce striking techniques.
The idea is to draw the opponent forward while racing in at him, and then hit
him with multiple massive strikes at point blank range.
>The point you make about Goju being more
>aggressive is true but to a good WC practisioner this would
>make it easier to defeat you because you're doing most of
>the work for them. I like to see a good Goju person work out
>on a WC Dummy. Haaaah ! now I'm being cruel ; )
The blocking practice works fine, but we just keep breaking off pieces of them
when we forget and add in the Go (hard) parts.
Peter C. Everett
StephieXXX (steph...@aol.com) wrote:
: The beginner blocks ARE Shurite (Shotokan). We have talked about this before,
: and your idea of Goju seems very basic to me, essentially like Shotokan is to
: Okinawan karate uses soft trappling blocks much more than most people think.
: Shotokan is pretty much alone in its crude hard block approach.
: ...
It seems to me that at higher levels, all the hard-linear styles incorporate
more soft-circular techniques, while the soft-circular styles eventually
develop hard-linear power later on. The style of TKD that I do would be
considered "hard" even by Shotokan standards, yet high-level practitioners
incorporate a surprising degree of softness and internality.
I think people are too quick to classify entire styles by what the
beginners learn. Perhaps that makes sense, since the great majority
of students only study for a short while, and observers of advanced
students have a hard time seeing what is really going on.
Enjoy,
Peter C. Everett
IIias
StephieXXX wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
> >From: malle...@aol.com (MAllen5904)
> >Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 10:04 EST
> >Message-id: <199804041504...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
> >
> >>Goju "blocks" are quite unlike Shotokan blocks. Since Goju Ryu (hard/soft
> >>style) incorporates both hard and soft it does pratice hard blocks, but they
> >>really are seldom used. It uses white crane style style parries (typically
> >>with the back rather than front hand) and uses traps and sticky hands.
> >>Ideally, punching at a Goju artist should feel like punching at a tar baby--
> >>you are suddenly stuck up to your elbows and then he starts hitting you with
> >>elbows and knees.
> >>
> >>Goju is also an internal style.
> >>
> >>The primary difference between Goju and its Chinese sister arts is that it
> >>uses Japanese footwork and is almost always on the balls of the feet even
> >>when
> >>receiving attacks. This tends to making it more aggressive,
> >counterattacking
> >>deep into attacks even to the point of torso contact. Needless to say this
> >>almost always results in a throw or at least a shove.
> >
> >Me:
> >
> > I don't know stephie, Goju blocks aren't too much different
> >from Shotokan.
>
> The beginner blocks ARE Shurite (Shotokan). We have talked about this before,
> and your idea of Goju seems very basic to me, essentially like Shotokan is to
> Shuri-te. Okinawan karate is very subtle, perhaps it didn't make it across the
> Pacific intact.
>
> >They might tend to look more circlar to a Goju
> >stylist than they would from someone who knows little about
> >karate. In constrast, WC's are quite different because this
> >is a trapping hands style which the Okinowan/ Japanese
> >systems are lacking in the area of having anykind of trapping
> >skills.
>
> Okinawan karate uses soft trappling blocks much more than most people think.
what's a soft trapping block? ;-)this sounds inconsistent to me....
> Shotokan is pretty much alone in its crude hard block approach.
>
> Except for beginners, Goju blocks are all soft and trapping. We practice
> sticky hands and push hands just like the Chinese styles.
what exactly is sticky hand training in Goju Ryu?what does it involve? how does it
compare to WT's chi sao?
> Goju is essentially
> a Chinese style with Japanese feet.
I find it difficult to picture chi sao with a japanese-like footwork
approach....ideas anybody?
> The energy trapping, absortion, and
> reflection is very Chinese.
>
> Blocking with the back hand is very Chinese.
and effective....
>
>
> > There is this Ki/Chi similariety but you'll find it more
> >so in WC because the system deals with sensitivity to your
> >opponent's energy,in constrast, Goju has a more rock um
> >sock um approach to fighting. WC, also, deals a lot on controlling
> >centerline where as in all my years in Goju this conscept never
> >was brought up.
> Centerline is not usually mentioned explicitly, but it is implicit in footwork
> and blocks.
here we go again with blocks...could we be talking about the same thing here?
in WT centerline theory is emphasized right from the start...
you learn to occupy it and exploit any deviations from it...
when you occupy it first and a strike comes in, you establish contact and give
in....
you don't block....there are no blocks in WT....
> Goju is a very interesting system because it combines the very
> subtle trapping parries with extremely hard and fierce striking techniques.
> The idea is to draw the opponent forward while racing in at him, and then hit
> him with multiple massive strikes at point blank range.
interesting idea....sounds like the chain punches in WT....
>
>
> >The point you make about Goju being more
> >aggressive is true but to a good WC practisioner this would
> >make it easier to defeat you because you're doing most of
> >the work for them. I like to see a good Goju person work out
> >on a WC Dummy. Haaaah ! now I'm being cruel ; )
> The blocking practice works fine,
there is one main reason why it doesn't....unless the block is in the opposite
direction of the hit,it deviates from the centerline...and this is something that a
WT practitioner is extremely well trained for...
all traditional karate/tae kwon do blocks deviate from the centerline....
> but we just keep breaking off pieces of them
> when we forget and add in the Go (hard) parts.
regards,
Ilias
JundokanNE
><BR>
>what exactly is sticky hand training in Goju Ryu?
It is called "Kakie" (Kar Key AY), it is derived from the Chinese systems. Our
kata Tensho is also derived from the Chinese kata Rokugoikishu, which was
developed by a Buddhist Nun. Sound familiar??? Perhaps there is more in
common with WT than you are led to believe.
Martin Scott Goldberg
jundo...@aol.com (JundokanNE) says:
Perhaps you believe in fairytales, the Nun origin of wing chun is nothing
but a legend. Truth is it can't be traced back legitimately past the
redboats. Feel free to visit www.wingchunkuen.com (The Wing Chun
Archives) for more info.
This stuff about Goju and Wing Chun being similar is getting rediculous.
I regularly work out with several Goju people, and many arts emphasize
"soft" and might have their own form of "trapping", however the mechanics
and structure between these two arts is completely different. There
are thousands of Chinese martial arts, and to say it's similar because
it's derived from the "chinese systems" is like saying earth is exactly
the same as Jupiter because they're both of the planetary persuasion.
TKD and Copoeria both use similar principles in emphasis of the legs
and elusive kicking, etc. However they are completely different systems.
Aikido and Wing Chun share many of the same "principles" as well, though
I wouldn't sit there and say they're the same. Goju may have it's
roots to a speicifc art or a handful of arts in the thousands that
exitst in China. This doesn't make it automatically the same as all
chinese arts. Likewise this "sensitivity training" issue - most good
arts have some kind of sensitivity training and development, all over
the world, regardless of place of origin. And as far as this nonsense
about "using the back hand" making it very "Chinese", Wing Chun doesn't
have a back hand. We always use both hands simultaniously in every single
movement.
Marty
WWCKFA -- www.wwckfa.com
IWCKFF
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Sun, Apr 5, 1998 15:31 EDT
>Message-id: <6g8m5p$31$1...@uwm.edu>
>
>jundo...@aol.com (JundokanNE) says:
>
>
>>>
>
>>>what exactly is sticky hand training in Goju Ryu?
>>
>>It is called "Kakie" (Kar Key AY), it is derived from the Chinese systems.
>Our
>>kata Tensho is also derived from the Chinese kata
Actually Tensho was developed by Miyagi fairly late in his life to counter the
effects of too much Sanchin.
>
>This stuff about Goju and Wing Chun being similar is getting rediculous.
>There
>are thousands of Chinese martial arts, and to say it's similar because
>it's derived from the "chinese systems"
Specifically it comes fairly directly from white crane less than 100 years
ago.
> And as far as this nonsense
>about "using the back hand" making it very "Chinese", Wing Chun doesn't
>have a back hand. We always use both hands simultaniously
> in every single movement.
That is the point. Most Japanese/Okinawan styles block with the forward arm.
It is unusual to use two hand parries (which are sometimes abbrviated to just
the back hand.)
John DeVirgilio
On 5 Apr 1998, JundokanNE wrote:
> ><BR>
> >what exactly is sticky hand training in Goju Ryu?
>
> It is called "Kakie" (Kar Key AY), it is derived from the Chinese systems. Our
> kata Tensho is also derived from the Chinese kata Rokugoikishu, which was
> developed by a Buddhist Nun. Sound familiar??? Perhaps there is more in
> common with WT than you are led to believe.
>
There is little doubt that Wing Chun and Goju ryu have a common
source. Although Wing Chun pre dates Goju ryu they both have roots
from the Fukien White Crane system. By oral tradition the Fukien
White Crane was developed by a women. The famed nun, Ng Mui, was
probably no more than a practitioner of this system.
The three battles concept (or three facing angles, or three angles/six
ideas) can be found in all three systems. This practice is no more
than creating stepping momentum in the three usual fighting angles (
front, left, right).
I personally have found many similarities between the systems and
would encourage all interested parties to visit with the Fukien White
Crane teachers. There are, however, differences in certian White Crane
variants that use the crouched (compressed box) postures.
Cheers,
John F. Di Virgilio
HntrRos
steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) writes:
:Most Japanese/Okinawan styles block with the forward arm.
:It is unusual to use two hand parries (which are sometimes :abbrviated to just
the back hand.)
You would block a punch with both of your hands?
A CMA practitioner did that to a jab in an early UFC,
then blocked the straight right that followed with
his jaw.
---
"Oh wearisome Condition of Humanity!
Borne vnder one Law, to another bound:
Vainely begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sicke, commanded to be sound:
What meaneth Nature by these diuerse Lawes?"
- Fulke Greville
---
.
Hyo1
>Actually Tensho was developed by Miyagi fairly late in his life to counter
>the
>effects of too much Sanchin.
>>
It was derived from several Chinese systems, Miyagi changed it (as well as
Sanchin) and put it into Goju...
D.C.S.
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Mon, Apr 6, 1998 01:07 EDT
>Message-id: <199804060507...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>
>steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) writes:
>
>:Most Japanese/Okinawan styles block with the forward arm.
>:It is unusual to use two hand parries (which are sometimes :abbrviated to
>just
>the back hand.)
>
>You would block a punch with both of your hands?
>A CMA practitioner did that to a jab in an early UFC,
>then blocked the straight right that followed with
>his jaw.
>
move you to set up the punch that follows. It is very dangerous to put any
body energy into a block against a jab. It is simpler just to avoid it, or
even to use a strike to injure the hand or wrist.
The purpose of double parrying style blocks is usually to trap the hand or
energy forward. There is not much forward energy in a jab, so there is nothing
to trap.
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Mon, Apr 6, 1998 03:16 EDT
>Message-id: <199804060716...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Chinese systems, so that fact alone isn't very useful.
Which Chinese art has which kata that is like Tensho?
I think Miyagi made this one up on his own.
MAllen5904
stephie wrote:
>The beginner blocks ARE Shurite (Shotokan). We have talked about this
>before,
>and your idea of Goju seems very basic to me, essentially like Shotokan is to
>Shuri-te. Okinawan karate is very subtle, perhaps it didn't make it across
>the
>Pacific intact.
Me:
I'm sorry if I'm pissing you off. Through our discussions
in the past you know I think Goju is a beautiful art and I
still practise many of the Katas I've learned about twenty
years ago as a kid. You may bring into this discussion how
Tensho and Mawashi hand movements are similar to WC
but if you trained in both arts you would see a difference.
Much of the difference is about energy and sensitivity to this
energy. Goju people don't spend hours doing Chi Sao drills
blind folded. In stead, you can walk into their dojos and
watch them trade round house kicks to each other tighs
for conditioning. Is each other's way of training better or
worse ? No, they're different. They both use a different
type of energy. A low block is a low block is a low block
no matter what style uses it. In addition, it does the same thing.
The differense being the type of energy being used to execute
this low block. I might seem to have basic opinion of Goju but
thats because to me it seems kindda primative ( not meant in
a bad way) and Gung/Kung- fu seems to be more advanced in
developing this certain feel I've searched for and found.
However, I'll always support you on Goju fighters are the
toughess guys/gals out there.
Mallen
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Mon, Apr 6, 1998 12:16 EDT
>Message-id: <199804061616...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
>
>stephie wrote:
>
>>The beginner blocks ARE Shurite (Shotokan). We have talked about this
>>before,
>>and your idea of Goju seems very basic to me, essentially like Shotokan is
>to
>>Shuri-te. Okinawan karate is very subtle, perhaps it didn't make it across
>>the
>>Pacific intact.
>
>Me:
>
> I'm sorry if I'm pissing you off. Through our discussions
>in the past you know I think Goju is a beautiful art and I
>still practise many of the Katas I've learned about twenty
>years ago as a kid. You may bring into this discussion how
>Tensho and Mawashi hand movements are similar to WC
>but if you trained in both arts you would see a difference.
>Much of the difference is about energy and sensitivity to this
>energy. Goju people don't spend hours doing Chi Sao drills
>blind folded.
We do them in almost every advanced class and it seems like hours. We close
our eyes instead of blindfolds, but I for one don't cheat. The way we trap and
uses energy is the same. Advanced Goju is very internal.
>Instead, you can walk into their dojos and
>watch them trade round house kicks to each other thighs
>for conditioning.
I have actually never seen a round house to the thigh thrown in my dojo. We do
however, practice very hard and accurate striking. Some people and dojos are
more into body conditioning than others. In mine, we tend to think that it is
smarter just to get out of the way.
As I said, our experiences of goju are very different. Yours sounds like a
beginner class taught by a green belt who has been left on his own for a few
years and is making things up because he is bored and doesn't know any advanced
stuff.
>Is each other's way of training better or
>worse ? No, they're different. They both use a different
>type of energy. A low block is a low block is a low block
>no matter what style uses it. In addition, it does the same thing.
>The differense being the type of energy being used to execute
>this low block.
I am not sure about the reference here, but we have a variety of low blocks (in
our terminology block include all modes of intercepting strikes).
Goju "low block" responses go from hard to soft.
1. break the foot off with a knee strike
2. strike with a single knuckle into the ankle
3. knock the foot to the side
4. scoop the foot up
5. grab the gi bottom and hang on
6. brush to foot past
7. brush it past and press up/down/ left/ right
8. brush it past, catch it and throw it back
9. brush it past and trap it with the elbow
10. brush it past, trap if with the elbow, and twist the hips with the intent
of tearing it off at the knee.
>I might seem to have basic opinion of Goju but
>thats because to me it seems kindda primative ( not meant in
>a bad way) and Gung/Kung- fu seems to be more advanced in
>developing this certain feel I've searched for and found.
>However, I'll always support you on Goju fighters are the
>toughess guys/gals out there.
I think that some of the problem is that Goju includes a very wide range of
technique. It is clear that at one end in Tensho is very soft and subtle and
that at the other end, Sanchin and some of the strikes are very brutal. In
fact it is this range that gives Goju its unique power in fighting. I suppose
there are dojos out there that are isolated from the Japanese/Okinawan
mainstream that don't practice the subtle end, but that is not what goju is
really about.
Go to any dojo that has instructors who train in Japan and you will see another
goju. Make sure you see an advanced class too.
>
MAllen5904
>Which Chinese art has which kata that is like Tensho?
>I think Miyagi made this one up on his own.
>
>
Me:
Miyagi was an artist. Tensho demonstrates that he
saw a certain beauty and effectiveness in the Chinese
Tan and Pac Sao. Add verticle shuto and cranebeak styled
wrist strikes, some elements of grappling to heavy duty breathing and you have
an awesome Goju Kata. Can't say I would fight that way but it is pretty; )
Mallen
StephieXXX
>Message-id: <199804061731...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Odd, but guess what came out in the aforementioned mugging. I must have been
doing a lot of Tensho.
Steve Godfrey
> Miyagi was an artist. Tensho demonstrates that he
>saw a certain beauty and effectiveness in the Chinese
>Tan and Pac Sao. Add verticle shuto and cranebeak styled
>wrist strikes, some elements of grappling to heavy duty breathing and you
have
>an awesome Goju Kata. Can't say I would fight that way but it is pretty; )
>
> Mallen
The application is very practicle and dangerous if understood. Tensho is
one of my favorites. It is beuatiful and effective. Very subtle and
requires a trained I to see the applications of the kata.
Steve Godfrey
>
>
JundokanNE
>Which Chinese art has which kata that is like Tensho?<BR>
>>>I think Miyagi made this one up on his own.<
Miyagi Sensei invented Tensho kata from a form called Rokugoikisho(also known
as Rokkishu) that he learned while studying in Fukien Province during his visit
there in 1915,after the death of his sensei, Higashionna Kanryo. From 1917 to
1921 he carried out research that led to the development of the Tensho kata.
As to his development to augment "the effects of Sanchin", may I ask what
"effects of Sanchin?" Sanchin, as well as all Goju Kata if taught properly are
very healthy for you.
HntrRos
steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) writes:
:>You would block a punch with both of your hands?
:>A CMA practitioner did that to a jab in an early UFC,
:>then blocked the straight right that followed with
:>his jaw.
:>
:It is not clear you want to block a jab at all, since it is
:probably trying to move you to set up the punch that follows.
If you don't block a jab, you'll likely get hit.
In a later UFC, the same brawler (who is trained
by a fairly well-renowned boxing trainer, actually-
Jesse Ferguson?) knocked down former UFC champion
and former professional boxer Don Frye with his first jab.
BJJ black-belt Carlos Barreto was knocked down
and nearly out by the first jab of a big puncher
in a Brasilian event. The popular boxing sideshow
"Butterbean" Esch was recently knocked down
by an opponent's first punch- a jab.
As many boxers will attest to, jabs can hurt;
they can even stun or offbalance a fighter or
knock him down. Vitor Belfort and Don Frye
have devastated people quickly with the jab
in the UFC.
:It is very dangerous to put any
:body energy into a block against a jab.
What do you mean?
:It is simpler just to avoid it,
Oh, yes. Jabs are very easy to avoid,
in comparison to real punches like
the reverse punch or the backfist.
Why bother using your hands when
you can just hop out of the way of all
of your opponent's jabs?
(Jabs can be evaded, but I wouldn't
be so confident about it. You're no
Pernell Whittaker, and you probably
don't even move your head much.)
:or even to use a strike to injure the hand or wrist.
Easier said than done, especially when you're
refering to a jab. You don't have much time to
react, and when you do, his strike will generally
have more force and speed and a better angle
behind it. Even if you connect, you may not
stop the punch, and, if you're counterpunching
simultaneously, you may be left without a hand
guarding your face. Perhaps you could do this if
you're much faster and much more skilled than your
assailant, but, again, I wouldn't count on it.
While I concede that both of these can be effective,
I don't think they're very pragmatic or dependable solutions.
IMHO it's better (for most p/k'ers, in general) to counterpunch,
move, and keep the rear palm up to block. (Or you might check
it passively with your palm, or check the hand/arm non-passively
and move in, or do any number of fairly reliable things.)
I'd hardly say it's "simpler" to evade (especially without
a good deal of head movement!) or punch the jabber's
hand (maybe if you're Sugar Ray Robinson : ) - but then
it's easier to punch the jabber's jaw, and keep him
from jabbering for a bit).
Just curious- can you do these things regularly
in sparring? Do the people at your dojo practice
jabbing, avoiding jabs, and stopping jabs by
punching jabbing hands frequently, at high speed,
in sparring? Can you describe what you think
a jab is, and how it's done?
:The purpose of double parrying style blocks is usually
:to trap the hand or energy forward
A trap isn't a block, so I'm left to wonder what you're
refering to. Can you describe it in more detail?
Blocking a punch with two hands, under most circumstances,
seems like a very risky proposition to me.
:There is not much forward energy in a jab,
Do you know how a boxer throws a jab?
A textbook jab has good forward energy.
According to Shannon Briggs, Foreman
hit him so hard with the left jab that
he "thought he saw God." Have you
ever seen a boxer's head snap back
from a jab? Remember those examples
I gave in the beginning; a jab can knock
a seasoned professional fighter down or out!
A jab can have a good deal of forward energy.
:so there is nothing
:to trap.
The arm is there (albeit for a short time), isn't it?
(Of course, I know nothing about trapping, so I'll
defer to those who do.)
HntrRos
steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) writes:
:I am not sure about the reference here, but we have a variety
:of low blocks (in our terminology block include all modes of :intercepting
strikes).
:Goju "low block" responses go from hard to soft.
:1. break the foot off with a knee strike
:2. strike with a single knuckle into the ankle
:3. knock the foot to the side
...
:10. brush it past, trap if with the elbow, and twist the hips
:with the intent of tearing it off at the knee.
And then beating him over the head with it?
With due respect, many of these seem quite implausible,
made only moreso by your silliness.
MAllen5904
stephie:
>As I said, Miyagi made up the kata.
>
>Odd, but guess what came out in the aforementioned mugging. I must have been
>doing a lot of Tensho.
Me:
To be honest with you tensho's shoulder dislocation is
one of my favorite technique. Tried to sell it to this NG
a few months back as a form that can be applied to ground fighting but got no
buyers. Now that you might be alittle ruffled, what do you think ?
Mallen
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Mon, Apr 6, 1998 23:02 EDT
>Message-id: <199804070302...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>
>steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) writes:
>
>:I am not sure about the reference here, but we have a variety
>:of low blocks (in our terminology block include all modes of :intercepting
>strikes).
>:Goju "low block" responses go from hard to soft.
>:1. break the foot off with a knee strike
>:2. strike with a single knuckle into the ankle
>:3. knock the foot to the side
>...
>:10. brush it past, trap if with the elbow, and twist the hips
>:with the intent of tearing it off at the knee.
>
>And then beating him over the head with it?
>
>With due respect, many of these seem quite implausible,
>made only more so by your silliness.
>
doubt if you do a hard style the soft ones, and if you do a soft style the hard
ones, and if you do bjj, all of them?
StephieXXX
>Message-id: <199804070252...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
>
>steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) writes:
>
>:>You would block a punch with both of your hands?
>:>A CMA practitioner did that to a jab in an early UFC,
>:>then blocked the straight right that followed with
>:>his jaw.
>:>
>:It is not clear you want to block a jab at all, since it is
>:probably trying to move you to set up the punch that follows.
>
>If you don't block a jab, you'll likely get hit.
It is a positional question. You need to maintain position.
If you block a jab without position, you will get hit by the second strike.
>In a later UFC
who cares? I saw it on the WWF the other night too.
>
>:It is very dangerous to put any
>:body energy into a block against a jab.
>
>What do you mean?
>
>:It is simpler just to avoid it,
>
>Oh, yes. Jabs are very easy to avoid,
>in comparison to real punches like
>the reverse punch or the backfist.
It is not that they are easier to avoid, it is more that there is not much you
can do with them. If the guy really lunges at you, you can use his commitment
against him.
>Why bother using your hands when
>you can just hop out of the way of all
>of your opponent's jabs?
>
I didn't say you couldn't use your hands to help avoid the jabs.
Just that there is not much point in trapping them.
>
>(Jabs can be evaded, but I wouldn't
>be so confident about it. You're no
>Pernell Whittaker, and you probably
>don't even move your head much.)
>
>:or even to use a strike to injure the hand or wrist.
>
>Easier said than done, especially when you're
>refering to a jab. You don't have much time to
>react, and when you do, his strike will generally
>have more force and speed and a better angle
>behind it.
Well hopefully not, or else you will lose.
>Even if you connect, you may not
>stop the punch, and, if you're counterpunching
>simultaneously, you may be left without a hand
>guarding your face. Perhaps you could do this if
>you're much faster and much more skilled than your
>assailant, but, again, I wouldn't count on it.
Well, if you're not faster or more skilled, you are probably
going to lose.
>While I concede that both of these can be effective,
>I don't think they're very pragmatic or dependable solutions.
>IMHO it's better (for most p/k'ers, in general) to counterpunch,
>move, and keep the rear palm up to block. (Or you might check
>it passively with your palm, or check the hand/arm non-passively
>and move in, or do any number of fairly reliable things.)
It is just a question of who has positional advantage. If you don't have it,
you don't want to extend in a punch or move in.
>
>I'd hardly say it's "simpler" to evade (especially without
>a good deal of head movement!) or punch the jabber's
>hand (maybe if you're Sugar Ray Robinson : ) - but then
>it's easier to punch the jabber's jaw, and keep him
>from jabbering for a bit).
That depend on how long his arms are. I spar with some gorillas. Their hands
are always within reach.
>
>Just curious- can you do these things regularly
>in sparring? Do the people at your dojo practice
>jabbing, avoiding jabs, and stopping jabs by
>punching jabbing hands frequently, at high speed,
>in sparring?
It is the primary sparring practice that we do. It is done at a greater
distance than boxers use. Basically our strategy is to stay out of range,
until we can gain some positional or temporal advantage and then enter quickly
to torso contact range. The "kill zone" is a bad place to hover, even if the
enemy is in range too. From far range, we use jabs to provoke movement, or to
cover our own movement. The key is to know the ranges very precisely.
Boxing rules artificially hold boxers in the most dangerous place. More and
more we see clinching used as strategy to defeat that. Close, take one shot,
and clinch before you get counter punched. It is not a bad strategy, but a lot
better if the "rules" allow you to elbow strike instead of clinch.
> Can you describe what you think
>a jab is, and how it's done?
Jabs are strikes with the forward hand. Usually they are
very quick strikes, ususally with minimal body movemet.
We do them with minimal hand movement, and use internal energy to strengthen
the strike at the last moment.
>
>:The purpose of double parrying style blocks is usually
>:to trap the hand or energy forward
>
>A trap isn't a block, so I'm left to wonder what you're
>refering to. Can you describe it in more detail?
Just terminolgy, we call them all blocks even though they are different. We
see them as a spectrum.
>
>Blocking a punch with two hands, under most circumstances,
>seems like a very risky proposition to me.
Not necessarily with both at once, one passes the "block" to the other. It
leaves both hands up and ready.
>
>:There is not much forward energy in a jab,
>
>Do you know how a boxer throws a jab?
>A textbook jab has good forward energy.
>According to Shannon Briggs, Foreman
>hit him so hard with the left jab that
>he "thought he saw God." Have you
>ever seen a boxer's head snap back
>from a jab? Remember those examples
>I gave in the beginning; a jab can knock
>a seasoned professional fighter down or out!
Jabs are very dangerous. You can certainly break facial bones with one, even
with no commitment. Boxers put more body movement into jabs. You could
probably even trap that sort of strike.
>
>A jab can have a good deal of forward energy.
It can hit very hard but it does not project energy the same way as a punch.
That is the great advantage of jabs. They are relatively safe to throw.
>
>:so there is nothing
>:to trap.
>
>The arm is there (albeit for a short time), isn't it?
>(Of course, I know nothing about trapping, so I'll
>defer to those who do.)
You can grab the arm, but it is fairly dangerous unless you have some
advantage. If you do, you need to use some sort of joint manipulation.
Trapping is more about controlling your opponents body energy.
Richard Lancashire
StephieXXX wrote:
> > Miyagi was an artist. Tensho demonstrates that he
> >saw a certain beauty and effectiveness in the Chinese
> >Tan and Pac Sao. Add verticle shuto and cranebeak styled
> >wrist strikes,
> As I said, Miyagi made up the kata.
Which form is it that is basically the same as the White Crane form?
:oP
Rich
MAllen5904
Stephie:
>As I said, our experiences of goju are very different. Yours sounds like a
>beginner class taught by a green belt who has been left on his own for a few
>years and is making things up because he is bored and doesn't know any
>advanced
>stuff.
Me:
stephie this isn't nice. I catch ya in unfamilar water and you resort
to criticism and insults. I trained in American and later Nisei Goju
under Peter Urban recieving my BB at eighteen from the late
Frank Ruiz. I trained with the likes of Eddy Andujar, Marty Manuel, and the
Artesi bros. Non of these people come close
to being bored green belts, but rather great artist and instructors
of Goju on the east coast.
you:
>I am not sure about the reference here, but we have a variety of low blocks
>(in
>our terminology block include all modes of intercepting strikes).
>Goju "low block" responses go from hard to soft.
>1. break the foot off with a knee strike
>2. strike with a single knuckle into the ankle
>3. knock the foot to the side
>4. scoop the foot up
>5. grab the gi bottom and hang on
>6. brush to foot past
>7. brush it past and press up/down/ left/ right
>8. brush it past, catch it and throw it back
>9. brush it past and trap it with the elbow
>10. brush it past, trap if with the elbow, and twist the hips with the intent
>of tearing it off at the knee.
Me:
Thankyou, you made my point with your list of techniques.
Goju is an aggressive art which use quick explosive,multiple
strikes to over whelm your opponent. In contrast WC is a passive
art where you redirect the force away fro the center of the body
and all other portions of the main body and limbs give way to
strong techniques in order to set up strikes to the overextended,
off balanced attacker. Its true Goju as many other systems do this
to a small extent but there is too much hard in Goju to really
compare it to WC. As I have mentioned to Steve through E-mail,
Aikido is probably a system that would make a better comparision
for Aikido uses the same type of energy. I can't see any Goju
people ever give way to anything.
Mallen
HntrRos
steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) writes:
:>:10. brush it past, trap if with the elbow, and twist the hips
:>:with the intent of tearing it off at the knee.
:>
:>And then beating him over the head with it?
:>
:>With due respect, many of these seem quite implausible,
:>made only more so by your silliness.
:>
:Which ones in particular seem implausible.
These:
:>:2. strike with a single knuckle into the ankle
(You're going to stop a kick by doing that?
Ludicrous.)
:>:1. break the foot off with a knee strike
(This isn't usually practical. How low is the block
supposed to be?)
:>:5. grab the gi bottom and hang on
(How is this going to stop a kick?)
:>:10. brush it past, trap if with the elbow, and twist the hips
:>:with the intent of tearing it off at the knee.
(Do you honestly expect to injure the leg by doing that?)
---
"Oh wearisome Condition of Humanity!
Borne vnder one Law, to another bound:
Vainely begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sicke, commanded to be sound:
What meaneth Nature by these diuerse Lawes?"
---
Steve Godfrey
And so goes the deterioration of what was a good thread
Steve Godfrey
HntrRos wrote in message
<199804070252...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) writes:
>
>:>You would block a punch with both of your hands?
>:>A CMA practitioner did that to a jab in an early UFC,
>:>then blocked the straight right that followed with
>:>his jaw.
>:>
>:It is not clear you want to block a jab at all, since it is
>:probably trying to move you to set up the punch that follows.
>
>If you don't block a jab, you'll likely get hit.
>In a later UFC, the same brawler (who is trained
>by a fairly well-renowned boxing trainer, actually-
>Jesse Ferguson?) knocked down former UFC champion
>and former professional boxer Don Frye with his first jab.
>BJJ black-belt Carlos Barreto was knocked down
>and nearly out by the first jab of a big puncher
>in a Brasilian event. The popular boxing sideshow
>"Butterbean" Esch was recently knocked down
>by an opponent's first punch- a jab.
>
>As many boxers will attest to, jabs can hurt;
>they can even stun or offbalance a fighter or
>knock him down. Vitor Belfort and Don Frye
>have devastated people quickly with the jab
>in the UFC.
>
>:It is very dangerous to put any
>:body energy into a block against a jab.
>
>What do you mean?
>
>:It is simpler just to avoid it,
>
>Oh, yes. Jabs are very easy to avoid,
>in comparison to real punches like
>the reverse punch or the backfist.
>Why bother using your hands when
>you can just hop out of the way of all
>of your opponent's jabs?
>
>(Jabs can be evaded, but I wouldn't
>be so confident about it. You're no
>Pernell Whittaker, and you probably
>don't even move your head much.)
>
>:or even to use a strike to injure the hand or wrist.
>
>Easier said than done, especially when you're
>refering to a jab. You don't have much time to
>react, and when you do, his strike will generally
>have more force and speed and a better angle
>behind it. Even if you connect, you may not
>stop the punch, and, if you're counterpunching
>simultaneously, you may be left without a hand
>guarding your face. Perhaps you could do this if
>you're much faster and much more skilled than your
>assailant, but, again, I wouldn't count on it.
>
>While I concede that both of these can be effective,
>I don't think they're very pragmatic or dependable solutions.
>IMHO it's better (for most p/k'ers, in general) to counterpunch,
>move, and keep the rear palm up to block. (Or you might check
>it passively with your palm, or check the hand/arm non-passively
>and move in, or do any number of fairly reliable things.)
>
>I'd hardly say it's "simpler" to evade (especially without
>a good deal of head movement!) or punch the jabber's
>hand (maybe if you're Sugar Ray Robinson : ) - but then
>it's easier to punch the jabber's jaw, and keep him
>from jabbering for a bit).
>
>Just curious- can you do these things regularly
>in sparring? Do the people at your dojo practice
>jabbing, avoiding jabs, and stopping jabs by
>punching jabbing hands frequently, at high speed,
>in sparring? Can you describe what you think
>a jab is, and how it's done?
>
>:The purpose of double parrying style blocks is usually
>:to trap the hand or energy forward
>
>A trap isn't a block, so I'm left to wonder what you're
>refering to. Can you describe it in more detail?
>
>Blocking a punch with two hands, under most circumstances,
>seems like a very risky proposition to me.
>
>:There is not much forward energy in a jab,
>
>Do you know how a boxer throws a jab?
>A textbook jab has good forward energy.
>According to Shannon Briggs, Foreman
>hit him so hard with the left jab that
>he "thought he saw God." Have you
>ever seen a boxer's head snap back
>from a jab? Remember those examples
>I gave in the beginning; a jab can knock
>a seasoned professional fighter down or out!
>
>A jab can have a good deal of forward energy.
>
>:so there is nothing
>:to trap.
>
>The arm is there (albeit for a short time), isn't it?
>(Of course, I know nothing about trapping, so I'll
>defer to those who do.)
>
>---
>"Oh wearisome Condition of Humanity!
>Borne vnder one Law, to another bound:
>Vainely begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
>Created sicke, commanded to be sound:
>What meaneth Nature by these diuerse Lawes?"
>
>- Fulke Greville
>---
>
>
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Tue, Apr 7, 1998 10:24 EDT
>Message-id: <199804071424...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>
>Stephie:
>
>>As I said, our experiences of goju are very different. Yours sounds like a
>>beginner class taught by a green belt who has been left on his own for a few
>>years and is making things up because he is bored and doesn't know any
>>advanced
>>stuff.
>
>
>Me:
>
> stephie this isn't nice. I catch ya in unfamilar water and you resort
>to criticism and insults.
I am sorry that it came out like an insult, but you do keep telling me what I
practice. The goju I practice is very different than the American one you
practice. And the one you describe does resemble the beginner style of the one
I practice. That is simply the case. We practice a variety of what we
consider advanced techniques that you claim to have never heard of in goju.
How else would you describe it? I am certain that goju is quite effective
either way.
> I trained in American and later Nisei Goju
>under Peter Urban recieving my BB at eighteen from the late
>Frank Ruiz. I trained with the likes of Eddy Andujar, Marty Manuel, and the
>Artesi bros. Non of these people come close
>to being bored green belts, but rather great artist and instructors
>of Goju on the east coast.
But non of them have close contact with Japanese or Okinawan instructors
either. As nisei implies, they are second generation, and separated themselves
from the old country.
Americna Goju. If you refer to what you practice as American Goju, there would
be less confusion.
>
>you:
>
>>I am not sure about the reference here, but we have a variety of low blocks
>>(in
>>our terminology block include all modes of intercepting strikes).
>>Goju "low block" responses go from hard to soft.
>>1. break the foot off with a knee strike
>>2. strike with a single knuckle into the ankle
>>3. knock the foot to the side
>>4. scoop the foot up
>>5. grab the gi bottom and hang on
>>6. brush to foot past
>>7. brush it past and press up/down/ left/ right
>>8. brush it past, catch it and throw it back
>>9. brush it past and trap it with the elbow
>>10. brush it past, trap if with the elbow, and twist the hips with the
>intent
>>of tearing it off at the knee.
>
>
>Me:
>
> Thankyou, you made my point with your list of techniques.
>Goju is an aggressive art which use quick explosive,multiple
>strikes to over whelm your opponent. In contrast WC is a passive
>art where you redirect the force away fro the center of the body
>and all other portions of the main body and limbs give way to
>strong techniques in order to set up strikes to the overextended,
>off balanced attacker.
I guess that makes goju a passive-aggresive art?
> Its true Goju as many other systems do this
>to a small extent but there is too much hard in Goju to really
>compare it to WC.
That apparently is true of your goju (American Goju), but not Japanese Goju.
The most significant part of the art is the subtle control of body energy. The
hards stuff is separate.
>As I have mentioned to Steve through E-mail,
>Aikido is probably a system that would make a better comparision
>for Aikido uses the same type of energy. I can't see any Goju
>people ever give way to anything.
I practice aikido, as do many of my instructors. We consider the goju trapping
movements very similar to the aikido harmonizing movements. So much so, that
we sometimes do aikido exercise in goju class.
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Tue, Apr 7, 1998 14:03 EDT
>Message-id: <199804071803...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
>
>steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) writes:
>
>:>:10. brush it past, trap if with the elbow, and twist the hips
>:>And then beating him over the head with it?
>:>
>:>With due respect, many of these seem quite implausible,
>:>made only more so by your silliness.
>:>
>
>:Which ones in particular seem implausible.
>
>These:
>
>:>:2. strike with a single knuckle into the ankle
>
>(You're going to stop a kick by doing that?
>Ludicrous.)
Oh? no! You get out of the way first, and try to injure the ankle.
>
>:>:1. break the foot off with a knee strike
>
>(This isn't usually practical. How low is the block
>supposed to be?)
We do a lot of low kicks. If someone kicks at your groin, you can move off
center slightly, cover your groin and and strike into the kick with your knee.
You probably won't succeed in breaking off the foot, but there is no harm in
trying.
>
>:>:5. grab the gi bottom and hang on
>(How is this going to stop a kick?)
You get out of the way first, usually by stepping forward. You use the gi to
hold the foot up, and perhaps reap out the standing leg.
>
>:>:10. brush it past, trap it with the elbow, and twist the hips
>:>:with the intent of tearing it off at the knee.
You step in too and end up with one arm wrapped around the leg locking it
straight. If you twist sharply you put great force on the joint.
>
>(Do you honestly expect to injure the leg by doing that?)
>
yes.
LaughingBoy
On 6 Apr 1998 16:16:02 GMT, malle...@aol.com (MAllen5904) wrote:
>stephie wrote:
>
>>The beginner blocks ARE Shurite (Shotokan). We have talked about this
>>before,
>>and your idea of Goju seems very basic to me, essentially like Shotokan is to
>>Shuri-te. Okinawan karate is very subtle, perhaps it didn't make it across
>>the
>>Pacific intact.
>
>Me:
>
> I'm sorry if I'm pissing you off. Through our discussions
>in the past you know I think Goju is a beautiful art and I
>still practise many of the Katas I've learned about twenty
Mallen,
Why do you even wast your time? If you have a thought or point, it's
not valid. Why don't you just go back to your "green belt" Goju
instructor and quit making logical, thoughtful posts? Or at the very
least, if you HAVE to make a post, at least insult the other person
and their style before you finish! Gad!
MAllen5904
>>
>> I'm sorry if I'm pissing you off. Through our discussions
>>in the past you know I think Goju is a beautiful art and I
>>still practise many of the Katas I've learned about twenty
>
>
>Mallen,
>
>Why do you even wast your time? If you have a thought or point, it's
>not valid. Why don't you just go back to your "green belt" Goju
>instructor and quit making logical, thoughtful posts? Or at the very
>least, if you HAVE to make a post, at least insult the other person
>and their style before you finish! Gad!
Me:
Sorry, I'm not following your drift. I haven't insulted anybody's
style. Having gotten a bb in Goju and a sash in WC I don't see
a similarity is all I'm saying. Half my instructors are in the BB hall of fame
at least once if not twice so the green belt remark doesn't
faze me.
Mallen
StephieXXX
>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Wed, Apr 8, 1998 11:31 EDT
>Message-id: <199804081531...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
teachers didn't teach me, what sort of subtle things were not in MY style, and
what things WE didn't practice in class. Just because your American Black Belt
Hall of Fame teachers didn't teach you the subtle stuff, doesn't mean that mine
don't teach it, or that it is not part of the style. I find it astonishing
that you have never done sticky hands practice in Goju class at Shodan level.
MAllen5904
stephie:
>I just didn't understand why in post after post you kept telling me what MY
>teachers didn't teach me, what sort of subtle things were not in MY style,
>and
>what things WE didn't practice in class. Just because your American Black
>Belt
>Hall of Fame teachers didn't teach you the subtle stuff, doesn't mean that
>mine
>don't teach it, or that it is not part of the style. I find it astonishing
>that you have never done sticky hands practice in Goju class at Shodan level.
Me:
You're definately a woman ! Where in any of my posts did
I ever single out your particular school ? I made a broad
generalization of the style of Goju as I know it from my personal
experiance in relation to WC as I know from my personal experiance. I'll leave
out the Latin for the argument you
just submitted but in English its call an appeal for pity. Have
another type of argument ? This one I'm not buying. You're
better then this.
Mallen
StephieXXX
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>From: malle...@aol.com (MAllen5904)
>Date: Thu, Apr 9, 1998 01:00 EDT
>Message-id: <199804090500...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
teachers. I was trying to explain my exasperation at your characterization of
Japanese and Okinawan Goju on the basis of your American experiences. I
consider the style "Goju ryu" to be specifically Japanese/Okinawan. There is
fairly good consistency among these groups though they might not admit it. I
think that it would be more appropriate to refer yours as "Amerian Goju" and
not be surprised that the Japanese style is different.
I would also point out that my experience is broader than one dojo. I have
practiced at many dojos representing several different Japanese Goju groups.
MAllen5904
>It was not an argument. It was an explanation of why I "insulted" your
>teachers. I was trying to explain my exasperation at your characterization
>of
>Japanese and Okinawan Goju on the basis of your American experiences. I
>consider the style "Goju ryu" to be specifically Japanese/Okinawan. There is
>fairly good consistency among these groups though they might not admit it. I
>think that it would be more appropriate to refer yours as "Amerian Goju" and
>not be surprised that the Japanese style is different.
>
>I would also point out that my experience is broader than one dojo. I have
>practiced at many dojos representing several different Japanese Goju groups.
Me:
I hope I catch ya before your fun in the sun vacation. Do
you who Peter Urban's Teacher was ? Have a good week
off and I hope you can get by without an attempted mugging
or worse. God ! you must be beautuful to get that much
attention ; ) Makes ya want to envy the ugly ones ?
Be Well !
Mallen
Judy P. Hill
StephieXXX wrote in message
<199804090737...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>It was not an argument. It was an explanation of why I "insulted" your
>teachers. I was trying to explain my exasperation at your characterization
of
>Japanese and Okinawan Goju on the basis of your American experiences. I
>consider the style "Goju ryu" to be specifically Japanese/Okinawan. There
is
>fairly good consistency among these groups though they might not admit it.
I
>think that it would be more appropriate to refer yours as "Amerian Goju"
and
>not be surprised that the Japanese style is different.
>
>I would also point out that my experience is broader than one dojo. I have
>practiced at many dojos representing several different Japanese Goju
groups.
Just a comment, as I have periodically followed this thread, Why would
Stephie be familiar with sticky hands or sticky fingers as some call it? Why
don't you ask her something like, aren't you familiar with the intent of
Tensho? I believe the thread started out asking advice of the differences
between the styles, not that she had an active knowledge of both and the
terminology used for similiar drills and exercises.
the wharf rat
LaughingBoy
>
> Me:
>
> Sorry, I'm not following your drift. I haven't insulted anybody's
>style. Having gotten a bb in Goju and a sash in WC I don't see
>a similarity is all I'm saying. Half my instructors are in the BB hall of fame
>at least once if not twice so the green belt remark doesn't
>faze me.
Sorry I was being vague. I was just being facetious. I also thought
the comment about your Goju instructors being green belts, yada, yada,
yada - was quite demeaning.
You can't carry on a dialog with the person that you are discussing
this thread with. No matter how many valid points, thoughts, ideas,
theories, facts, insights, questions or comments you have about a
thought you're having...you will always be wrong arguing with this
person.
No slam/flame intended.
StephieXXX
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Goju Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Fri, Apr 10, 1998 00:57 EDT
>Message-id: <uDYcFSDZ9GA.202@uppubnews03>
>
>
>Just a comment, as I have periodically followed this thread, Why would
>Stephie
As a Goju-Ryu practioner,
>be familiar with sticky hands or sticky fingers as some call it? Why
>don't you ask her something like, aren't you familiar with the intent of
>Tensho? I believe the thread started out asking advice of the differences
>between the styles, not that she had an active knowledge of both and the
>terminology used for similiar drills and exercises.
Because, as I am trying to explain, Goju-ryu is very directly related to White
Crane Style, practices sticky hands exercises as a normal part of practice, and
calls the concept and practice "sticky hands". It is a basic part of Goju
practice, even at the brown belt level, at appears in midlevel kata as well as
tensho.
The only question is why someone who has studied with numerous hall of fame
American Goju instructors has never heard of this in a Goju contexts. My only
conclusions are he was not pay attention or that is that it is not taught in
American Goju. Since Mallen normally seems prette astute, I hypothosized that
this aspect did not make it across the Pacific. This seems more likely than
an American Goju stylist telling me it is not taught in Japanese Goju when I
just said it was.
>
>
Limbo
In article <199804141504...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) wrote:
> Because, as I am trying to explain, Goju-ryu is very directly related to White
> Crane Style, practices sticky hands exercises as a normal part of
practice, and
> calls the concept and practice "sticky hands". It is a basic part of Goju
> practice, even at the brown belt level, at appears in midlevel kata as well as
> tensho.
>
> The only question is why someone who has studied with numerous hall of fame
> American Goju instructors has never heard of this in a Goju contexts. My only
> conclusions are he was not pay attention or that is that it is not taught in
> American Goju. Since Mallen normally seems prette astute, I hypothosized that
> this aspect did not make it across the Pacific. This seems more likely than
> an American Goju stylist telling me it is not taught in Japanese Goju when I
> just said it was.
I didn't know Goju-ryu had Chi Sao.
Joyotpaul Chaudhuri
Goju Ryu Karate two person work and wing chun's chi sao
are quite different things. Different structure, function and
dynamics. I am not raising any issues on better or worse...
just no relationship at all. Joy Chaudhuri
Joyotpaul Chaudhuri
Joyotpaul Chaudhuri wrote in message
>
>At 04:30 AM 4/16/98 +0000, Joy wrote:
>> Goju Ryu Karate two person work and wing chun's chi sao<BR>
>>are quite different things. Different structure, function and<BR>
>>dynamics. I am not raising any issues on better or worse...<BR>
>>just no relationship at all.
Jundokanne replies:
>
>not true, the kakie excercises are very close to the Chi Sao. The
reference to
>the American Goju is most likely pointed at the fact that when the founding
>fathers of American Goju broke away, he was a low ranking black belt, and I
>dear say that he did not know the entire style.. Thus he only brought a
portion
>of the style over to be "Americanized" This is also reference to the fact
that
>the Japanese Goju style did not have the entire style when it was founded.
>Yamaguchi only trained for brief periods with Miyagi.
>So most Okinawan Goju styles practice the kakie (sticky hands) excercises.
> ----------------------------------------------------
Several styles have a form of sticking of some kind or another. That does
not make it
anywhere close to wing chun sticky hands. I understand what you are saying
about changes
in the transmission of Goju. Things can look similar but are not necessarily
the same.
Different principles and different structures and mechanics makes for
different systems.
I only drop in now and then so I may not see your reply. Best wishes,
joy chaudhuri
StephieXXX
>From: pho...@mindspring.com (Limbo)
>Date: Tue, Apr 14, 1998 16:20 EDT
>Message-id: <phonsao-1404...@user-38lc3qe.dialup.mindspring.com>
>
> I didn't know Goju-ryu had Chi Sao.
If you don't practice at least brown belt level goju. why would you.
If you do, either you don't pay attention in class, or you should check you
instructor's credentials.
StephieXXX
>Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>Date: Thu, Apr 9, 1998 20:20 EDT
>Message-id: <6gjokr$bjd$1...@news.jumpnet.com>
I am going to have to start taking these as compliments. I guess you just
don't think one person could know so much. You know rat, it is not so hard,
there are some people who are much, much smarter than you are.
MAllen5904
>(StephieXXX) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> Because, as I am trying to explain, Goju-ryu is very directly related to
>> Crane Style, practices sticky hands exercises as a normal part of<BR>
>practice, and<BR>
>> calls the concept and practice "sticky hands". It is a basic part of
>> practice, even at the brown belt level, at appears in midlevel kata as well
>> tensho.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The only question is why someone who has studied with numerous hall of
>> American Goju instructors has never heard of this in a Goju contexts. My
>> conclusions are he was not pay attention or that is that it is not taught
>> American Goju. Since Mallen normally seems prette astute, I hypothosized
>> this aspect did not make it across the Pacific. This seems more likely
>> an American Goju stylist telling me it is not taught in Japanese Goju when
>> just said it was.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I didn't know Goju-ryu had Chi Sao.<BR>
Me:
Hi stephie ! You brought your computer on your
fun in the sun vacation ? Oh well, you deserve the abuse.
No, we never did chi sao, lop sao, and doan chi like
drills in the goju I took. We were blind folded and people would form a circle
around us and given a number and when this number
was call out this person would come in with a given attack and we
would have to block and counter this. We did Judo like push
pull type drills for throws. That's just about it for sensitivity.
Mostly, we did Kata and application of the kata and free fighting.
The school was big on conditioning. We would hold each other
and trade three way knee strikes to each other's legs. That was
basically the extent of our learning as not to bore people too much. I agree
you must train in a exceptionally good school.
As always have a good day, and try to enjoy your Vacation.
we'll be here. I also, have AOL and it goes screwy every
once in a while ( I know you know) so excuse some of the
connected wording and unfinished posts that might pop up
until I straighten this thing out.
Mallen
the wharf rat
In article <199804150949...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
No, it's just that the inconsistencies in your biography,
arguments, and posting style indicate that "stephie" may be more
than one person. Probably not, though; a complicated construct is
difficult enough to maintain that such errors do creep in.
Limbo
In article <199804150944...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) wrote:
> >From: pho...@mindspring.com (Limbo)
> >Date: Tue, Apr 14, 1998 16:20 EDT
> >Message-id: <phonsao-1404...@user-38lc3qe.dialup.mindspring.com>
> >
> > I didn't know Goju-ryu had Chi Sao.
>
> If you don't practice at least brown belt level goju. why would you.
>
> If you do, either you don't pay attention in class, or you should check you
> instructor's credentials.
Because to a friend of mine who had a brown belt in goju-ryu, chi sao
looked like a "funny dance". I guess his instructor didn't have the
credentials or he didn't pay attention in class.
Limbo
Limbo
In article <199804151152...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
malle...@aol.com (MAllen5904) wrote:
>
> Me:
>
> Hi stephie ! You brought your computer on your
> fun in the sun vacation ? Oh well, you deserve the abuse.
> No, we never did chi sao, lop sao, and doan chi like
> drills in the goju I took. We were blind folded and people would form a circle
> around us and given a number and when this number
> was call out this person would come in with a given attack and we
> would have to block and counter this. We did Judo like push
> pull type drills for throws. That's just about it for sensitivity.
> Mostly, we did Kata and application of the kata and free fighting.
> The school was big on conditioning. We would hold each other
> and trade three way knee strikes to each other's legs. That was
> basically the extent of our learning as not to bore people too much. I agree
> you must train in a exceptionally good school.
> As always have a good day, and try to enjoy your Vacation.
> we'll be here. I also, have AOL and it goes screwy every
> once in a while ( I know you know) so excuse some of the
> connected wording and unfinished posts that might pop up
> until I straighten this thing out.
>
> Mallen
>
Thanks again Mallen, for clearing up this mess. I didn't think goju folks
did chi sao but I thought maybe they had something like it....guess not.
Then again did you get your "brown belt" or "check your instructor's
credentials"? Oh that's right you take "American Goju".
Be good,
Limbo
Joyotpaul Chaudhuri
> I didn't know Goju-ryu had Chi Sao.
Its not wing chun's chi sao. joy chaudhuri
Paul Erickson
On 15 Apr 1998 09:49:21 GMT, steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) wrote:
>I am going to have to start taking these as compliments. I guess you just
>don't think one person could know so much. You know rat, it is not so hard,
>there are some people who are much, much smarter than you are.
But not blindly arrogant though.
_____________________________
Paul R. Erickson
ARCLIGHT ENTERPRISES INC(DE)
Texas MBA 1998, Marketing
"A Spartan never asks how many of the enemy there are, only where they are."
-Charlie Beckwith, SFOD-D
JundokanNE
> Goju Ryu Karate two person work and wing chun's chi sao<BR>
>are quite different things. Different structure, function and<BR>
>dynamics. I am not raising any issues on better or worse...<BR>
>just no relationship at all.
not true, the kakie excercises are very close to the Chi Sao. The reference to
Wild Bill
steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) wrote:
>>Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>>From: wr...@jump.net (the wharf rat)
>>Date: Thu, Apr 9, 1998 20:20 EDT
>>Message-id: <6gjokr$bjd$1...@news.jumpnet.com>
>>
>>In article <199804090500...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
>>MAllen5904 <malle...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> You're definately a woman
>>
>> If not several.
>
>don't think one person could know so much. You know rat, it is not so hard,
>there are some people who are much, much smarter than you are.
How does he know this? Did you send pictures?!!!! I didn't get any !!!! I
want pictures too!!! :-00
SOrry, couldn't help myself. The Kami made me do it, yeah, thats it,
thats the ticket!:-)
WIld Bill
(Prferably bikini, thanks) ( Oww, Owwww quit it , owww)
MAllen5904
>Thanks again Mallen, for clearing up this mess. I didn't think goju folks<BR>
>did chi sao but I thought maybe they had something like it....guess not.<BR>
>Then again did you get your "brown belt" or "check your instructor's<BR>
>credentials"? Oh that's right you take "American Goju".<BR>
><BR>
>Be good,<BR>
>Limbo<BR>
Me:
I trained in Goju under Peter Urban's American Goju out
of NY. For some time I trained at the Olympic Center in Vineland
NJ under Joe Artesi and Sparred with greats like Eddy Andujar
a World Kick Boxing Champion who is now a Doctor. We broke
away in the early seventies with Frank Ruiz under the Nisei
system which went back to the more traditional path intended.
Marty Manuel, another great guy I trained with still has things going at the
Olympic Center.
Mallen
Steve Godfrey
And thus goes the deterioration of another good thread.
Steve Godfrey
Paul Erickson wrote in message <3535dd10...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On 15 Apr 1998 09:49:21 GMT, steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) wrote:
>
>>I am going to have to start taking these as compliments. I guess you just
>>don't think one person could know so much. You know rat, it is not so
hard,
>>there are some people who are much, much smarter than you are.
>
don griffen
steph, thanks for the pics you are a hotty
don griffen
mallen, do you know a man named zulu or monroe / they train in that
goju system
TravIsGod
>steph, thanks for the pics you are a hotty
She didn't actually send you pics, did she? Post 'em!
Trav
Steve Godfrey
And the deterioration has now been completed. Welcome to the new wine and
dine Stephie thread. All little peons with nothing to learn and no good
ideas are now welcome to try their luck with Stephie. GO TO A DATING THREAD
GUYS. THIS IS REC.MARTIAL ARTS
Steve Godfrey
Wild Bill wrote in message <6h5h4i$292$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>...
>steph...@aol.com (StephieXXX) wrote:
>>>Ryu Karate versus Wing Chun
>>>From: wr...@jump.net (the wharf rat)
>>>Date: Thu, Apr 9, 1998 20:20 EDT
>>>Message-id: <6gjokr$bjd$1...@news.jumpnet.com>
>>>
>>>In article <199804090500...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
>>>MAllen5904 <malle...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> You're definately a woman
>>>
>>> If not several.
>>
>>I am going to have to start taking these as compliments. I guess you just
>>don't think one person could know so much. You know rat, it is not so
hard,
>>there are some people who are much, much smarter than you are.
don griffen
trav, i gave her my word i wouldnt post them , theres a few bikini shots
that are pretty revaling