Bujinkan techniques compared to Nindo Ryu techniques
festus
Recon1324
regarding techniques, forms, weapons training, etc.
Thanks.
Shinobi
news:19990725100607...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
> I would like to correspond privately with someone from the Nindo ryu
> regarding techniques, forms, weapons training, etc.
I'm a member of the Nindo ryu and would like to compare my techniques with
yours. Mine are probably better cause they are Gendai and yours are not
cause they are to traditional and outdated!
Nindo Joe
Houston Haynes
Shinobi - you're the biggest pencil-necked fraud of them all (beside
LEESENSEI perhaps). Go back to your porn cites and stay there. Someday
you'll just go blind and not find your computer any more. RMA will raise in
a collective sigh of relief on that day.
Go away and play children. The adults here have adult things to talk
about...
Shinobi wrote in message <8Bjn3.2123$1H6.8...@news.optonline.net>...
NINDOJOE
Shinobi scribbled with their crayola using my screen name in the post...
.>I'm a member of the Nindo ryu and would like to compare my techniques with
>yours. Mine are probably better cause they are Gendai and yours are not
>cause they are to traditional and outdated!
>
>Nindo Joe
I have not said anything derogatory about the Togakure,the nine ryus that
compose it,or the Bujinkan. Only select members who consistantly try to
undermine my instructor and organization. As i've stated previously, my forte'
in Nindo Ryu is NOT in the Ninjutsu division, rather in the other styles that
are in the organization.
At least Gichoke's trolling is amusing and isn't taken seriously by most of us
on RMA, but when you claim to me in any way, you're just pathetic.
BTW, I also do Traditional Kobujutsu so I guess i'm outdated too!
To anyone else who reads this, please note that "Shinobi" is the author of the
previous post,not me.
Thank you for your time.
Joseph P. Rebelo II
NIND...@aol.com
Tatsumaky
BH
Genbukan Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho
Houston Haynes
>Where do the Ninjutsu techniques in Nindo ryu come from?
...from a qualified instructor - come to class.
If you can't come to class, then buy the book...
http://www.nindoryu.com/techniques/vidclip.htm
>Thanks
No prob
H3
>
>BH
>Genbukan Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho
Xanathos
"I'm a member of the Nindo ryu and would like to compare my techniques with
yours. Mine are probably better cause they are Gendai and yours are not
cause they are to traditional and outdated!
Nindo Joe"
I can attest that the individual who calls himself shinobi is NOT a Nindo Ryu
member and is definitely NOT Nindo Joe.
Anyone who would care to look up shinobi will realize he id decidely AGAINST
Nindo Ryu
Adam Souza
New Bedford Nindo Ryu
JSteve3453
interesting, I think the question was where do your ninpo waza come from, you
know what ryuha?
One other question you list godai stuff in your requirements, where did they
come from?
Ni...@ninja.com
wrote:
>Recon, If you want to compare Nindo Ryu techniques - come to class.
>
>Shinobi - you're the biggest pencil-necked fraud of them all (beside
>LEESENSEI perhaps).
Well Houstie, it's like this.....
I've trained with Shinobi and, although you may be right about him
being pencil-necked ;) , I can assure you that he is no fraud and that
he can kick ass. Also I've had the pleasure of training briefly with
Lee, and I can vouch for the quality of his taijutsu as well. Having
seen the crap you pass off as techniques on the nindo web site, I'm
afraid it is all too clear who the fraud is......Boss Nass Febres and
yourself.
Go back to your porn cites and stay there. Someday
>you'll just go blind and not find your computer any more. RMA will raise in
>a collective sigh of relief on that day.
Guess again, RMA is waiting for the day when you get in a real fight
and wind up in traction. I hope the ten-year old kid that kicks your
ass breaks your fingers so you can't type.
>
>Go away and play children. The adults here have adult things to talk
>about...
You are counting yourself among the adults? How delusional you are!
Mark
Bujinkan Dojo
Ni...@ninja.com
wrote:
>Tatsumaky wrote in message <19990727124423...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
>>Where do the Ninjutsu techniques in Nindo ryu come from?
>
>...from a qualified instructor - come to class.
So just what are this instructor's qualifications? A valid question
if you expect someone to attend class. Unless of course this is just
your way of not answering yet another simple question. Here's the
answer as to where the techniques came from - from watching Ninja 3
The Domination 17 times in a row.
>
>If you can't come to class, then buy the book...
>
>http://www.nindoryu.com/techniques/vidclip.htm
Are you still hawking that glorified pack of asswipe?
M
Tatsumaky
...from a qualified instructor - come to class.
If you can't come to class, then buy the book...
http://www.nindoryu.com/techniques/vidclip.htm
>Thanks
No prob
H3
>
>BH
>Genbukan Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho
Mr. Haynes you seem to have misunderstod the question as I suppose I have
misunderstood your strange defensivness by using sarcasm. As far as "coming to
class" I am a student of Tanemura sensei and have my own training group under
him. In more detail I notice in your site you talk about atemi-do, ninjutsu,
etc. My question is of what origins (ryu-ha) does the Nindo ryu include
Ninjutsu techniques?
BH
GWNBF/KJJR
Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho
Houston Haynes
>misunderstood your strange defensivness by using sarcasm.
I misunderstand nothing. My defensiveness is not strange. Your feigned
naivite is, however...
>As far as "coming to class" I am a student of Tanemura sensei and have my
own training
>group under him.
Did you train under him as a white belt on up, or did you convert from
another group?
>In more detail I notice in your site you talk about atemi-do, ninjutsu,
etc.
>My question is of what origins (ryu-ha) does the Nindo ryu include Ninjutsu
techniques?
But you see - that's the whole point.
Preoccupation with lineage is YOUR concern - not ours.
We are concerned with technique that works, and proper, modern strategies in
which to employ them. If you want to learn that in that method - come to
class.
If you enjoy learning from your teacher and see no void in your training [no
pun intended] - then that is the best form of happiness.
To quote Hatsumi Tono: "Anyone who deploys combat techniques seeking real
efficiency is, after all, deploying Ninjutsu." - Dojo Magazine, issue 191,
page 15, stated in an interview at the Madrid Taikai, Spain, 1993
:-)
>BH
>GWNBF/KJJR
>Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho
It is interesting that you mention Tanemura sensei. He was one of the
masters that assisted Shihan Dai Febres with some of Nindo Ryu Ninjutsu back
in the 80's. At the second world ninja summit, Tanemura demonstrated
taisabaki that was different than the way Shihna Dai Febres had originally
learned. It MAY have actually come from Tanemura's Ba Gua training [I think
it's called "walking the circle"], but it gave some new insights into
defensive movement, and would come to influence Nindo Ryu from that time
forward.
Likewise, Higuchi sensei was influencial in "civilizing" much of what we
did, including converting many of our combat techniques to fit other roles,
such as taihojutsu. He taught different hojo techniques, as well as some
counters to the standard iai and ken practices. Those were couched in the
trappings of ninjutsu, but could have come from any of his other arts, as
with Tanemura's form of taisabaki that he taught at that time.
[Side note - I must say the same thing COULD go for Hatsumi's teachings, as
he also holds ranks in Shito ryu karate, aikido, kobudo, and other
disciplines.]
Today, everyone is disavowing Higuchi as a traditional ninjutsu teacher. I
personally could care less whether or not the Japanese masters will own up
to current political differences. At the time Shihan Dai Febres met, knew
and trained with them, they were much more open with their teachings. Those
days have passed and we are lucky to have been there then.
Everyone barking about Nindo Ryu in the newsgroups keeps trying to impose
today's Takamatsuden model as the way it was back in the 70's and 80's. That
form of selective memory exposes the "new guard" to the people WHO WERE
THERE. GET OVER IT.
Bottom Line - If you're looking for traditions - look elsewhere. We don't
want any part of politics disguised as "tradition."
Tatsumaky
>Mr. Haynes you seem to have misunderstod the question as I suppose I have
>misunderstood your strange defensivness by using sarcasm.
I misunderstand nothing. My defensiveness is not strange. Your feigned
naivite is, however...
Believe what you like. My question was straightforward and you reacted
defensively. You still did not answer the question of where the "Ninjutsu" in
Nindo ryu came from. It is probably because while you spend alot of time trying
to discredit the Togakure ryu you forget that the only thing you have in Nindo
resembling Ninjutsu came from Togakure ryu.
>As far as "coming to class" I am a student of Tanemura sensei and have my
own training
>group under him.
Did you train under him as a white belt on up, or did you convert from
another group?>>
My personal martial arts history started in 1977 at the age of 7 in korean Tang
Soo Do. In 1986 I was a student of Mr. Glen Young an original member of the
Shadows of Iga, later I trained with Dr. Ed Sones of the Bujinkan organization.
My association with Tanemura sensei came around 1991 after being a student of
Michael Coleman of Milwaukee, Wisconsin(Coleman was originally a student of Mr.
Higuchi in Ohio as well until the Ninja Summit) Since that time I have trained
in Japan and attended every US seminar by Tanemura sensei in Miwaukee, Maine,
and NY.
But you see - that's the whole point.
Preoccupation with lineage is YOUR concern - not ours.
>>
I once had a teacher who said, "To appreciate the beauty of a flower is to
understand its roots"
We are concerned with technique that works, and proper, modern strategies in
which to employ them. If you want to learn that in that method - come to
class.>>
Any true martial art should be concerned with techniques that work and use
strategies past or present to make them work. I thankyou for your offer but I
have a teacher, you are most welcome to come to our dojo anytime to train with
us Alabama if you like.
It is interesting that you mention Tanemura sensei. He was one of the
masters that assisted Shihan Dai Febres with some of Nindo Ryu Ninjutsu back
in the 80's. >>
Assisted him how? Tanemura sensei taught at the second Ninja summit wherin Mr.
Febres attended as well. Mr. Febres was never a student of Tanemura sensei.
At the second world ninja summit, Tanemura demonstrated
taisabaki that was different than the way Shihna Dai Febres had originally
learned. It MAY have actually come from Tanemura's Ba Gua training [I think
it's called "walking the circle"], but it gave some new insights into
defensive movement, and would come to influence Nindo Ryu from that time
forward.>>
Genbukan Ninpo tai sabaki and Pakua circle walking are 2 completely different
things. Tanemura sensei does teach both however but the 2 are not mixed.
Today, everyone is disavowing Higuchi as a traditional ninjutsu teacher. I
personally could care less whether or not the Japanese masters will own up
to current political differences. At the time Shihan Dai Febres met, knew
and trained with them, they were much more open with their teachings. Those
days have passed and we are lucky to have been there then.
>>
Mr. Higuchi had an honorary Bujinkan rank. However like I said one of my old
teachers used to train with Mr. Higuchi and was very good in Kendo, I can
personally attest to that. He may be very strong in Judo, Taihojutsu, and kendo
but the connection to Bujinkan was purely a political thing IMHO
Today, everyone is disavowing Higuchi as a traditional ninjutsu teacher. I
personally could care less whether or not the Japanese masters will own up
to current political differences. At the time Shihan Dai Febres met, knew
and trained with them, they were much more open with their teachings. Those
days have passed and we are lucky to have been there then.
On a personal note let me say Mr. haynes that I have no love or hate one way or
the other for the Bujinkan. I have some friends in the Bujinkan and then there
are some guys that I wouldnt loan a pair of tabi even if they were training on
glass. I don't know you or anyone in the Nindo ryu however I am curious as to
why you spend so much time trying to delve into history and defame the
Takamatsu-den traditions when obviously the only Ninjutsu in Nindo ryu has
originated from the Togakure ryu. Can you name another ryu-ha? Yeah I know your
going to say were modern, were tough here and now. Yeah I understand your
position on that. But if its made up (the ninjutsu section of nindo) from
Togakure ryu, then just say so or even if its your own modern creation then
thats fine to.
BH
Genbukan Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho
Houston Haynes
Tatsumaky wrote in message <19990729133411...@ng-cj1.aol.com>...
>
>Yeah I understand your position on that. But if its made up (the ninjutsu
section of nindo)
>from Togakure ryu, then just say so or even if its your own modern creation
then
>thats fine to.
Thanks. I'm glad you finally understand.
By the way, have you been to our site yet? With a single reading of the
founder's page, the fact that Febres created all of Nindo Ryu should be
obvious to the most casual of observers.
I have never questioned that the Takamatsuden could be valid arts, if they
are properly applied. I have, however, been curious that things have changed
so much in such a short period of time. For a koryu regime, things seem to
have been modified considerably through the past few decades [a fairly short
period of time - in perspective with the length of claimed lineage].
However, change *can_be* good, if done properly... :-)
Peace,
Houston Haynes
Nindo Ryu Webmaster
http://www.nindoryu.com
geezerex
"Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
> Recon, If you want to compare Nindo Ryu techniques - come to class.
>
> Shinobi - you're the biggest pencil-necked fraud of them all (beside
> you'll just go blind and not find your computer any more. RMA will
raise in
> a collective sigh of relief on that day.
>
> about...
>
snip the forger.... do any of these adults care the finally answer
questions regarding nindo's origins, or do you wish to continue the
status quo?
--
The Many Headed Hydra of Usenet, the Vigilante Doppleganger
Mr Happy Himself, come visit at:
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
geezerex
"Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
> Tatsumaky wrote in message
<19990727124423...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
> >Where do the Ninjutsu techniques in Nindo ryu come from?
>
qualified as in bujinkan/genbukan/jinenkan that is, if you want to learn
how to interpret things, go see hewey.....
> If you can't come to class, then buy the book...
way to shill, hewey....
> http://www.nindoryu.com/techniques/vidclip.htm
>
> >Thanks
>
> No prob
> H3
>
> >
> >BH
> >Genbukan Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho
>
>
--
geezerex
"Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
> >Mr. Haynes you seem to have misunderstod the question as I suppose I
have
> >misunderstood your strange defensivness by using sarcasm.
>
> I misunderstand nothing. My defensiveness is not strange. Your feigned
> naivite is, however...
You misunderstand he's being sarcastic with you, you're defensive for
past false statements you made.
> >As far as "coming to class" I am a student of Tanemura sensei and
have my
> own training
> >group under him.
>
> Did you train under him as a white belt on up, or did you convert from
> another group?
why would he justify himself to a fraud.....
> >In more detail I notice in your site you talk about atemi-do,
ninjutsu,
> etc.
> >My question is of what origins (ryu-ha) does the Nindo ryu include
Ninjutsu
> techniques?
>
> But you see - that's the whole point.
yes hewey, it is....
> Preoccupation with lineage is YOUR concern - not ours.
because lineage back to ninjutsu's origins is kinda key, it came out of
clan origins and if you cant identify a tie back to those clannish
origins, you aint it....
> We are concerned with technique that works, and proper, modern
strategies in
> which to employ them. If you want to learn that in that method - come
to
> class.
if you had admitted that in the first place, that you made your art up,
you might not get the heat you do, but you had to try to bullshit
people, and stop shilling your chubby master's class....
> If you enjoy learning from your teacher and see no void in your
training [no
> pun intended] - then that is the best form of happiness.
>
> To quote Hatsumi Tono: "Anyone who deploys combat techniques seeking
real
> efficiency is, after all, deploying Ninjutsu." - Dojo Magazine, issue
191,
> page 15, stated in an interview at the Madrid Taikai, Spain, 1993
magazine quotes are worth shit...
> :-)
>
> >BH
> >GWNBF/KJJR
> >Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho
>
> It is interesting that you mention Tanemura sensei. He was one of the
> masters that assisted Shihan Dai Febres with some of Nindo Ryu
Ninjutsu back
> in the 80's. At the second world ninja summit, Tanemura demonstrated
> taisabaki that was different than the way Shihna Dai Febres had
originally
> learned. It MAY have actually come from Tanemura's Ba Gua training [I
think
> it's called "walking the circle"], but it gave some new insights into
> defensive movement, and would come to influence Nindo Ryu from that
time
> forward.
you seek to leech off Tanemura now, you are a sorry lil' sadsack, aren't
you?
> Likewise, Higuchi sensei was influencial in "civilizing" much of what
we
> did, including converting many of our combat techniques to fit other
roles,
> such as taihojutsu. He taught different hojo techniques, as well as
some
> counters to the standard iai and ken practices. Those were couched in
the
> trappings of ninjutsu, but could have come from any of his other arts,
as
> with Tanemura's form of taisabaki that he taught at that time.
>
> [Side note - I must say the same thing COULD go for Hatsumi's
teachings, as
> he also holds ranks in Shito ryu karate, aikido, kobudo, and other
> disciplines.]
>
> Today, everyone is disavowing Higuchi as a traditional ninjutsu
teacher. I
> personally could care less whether or not the Japanese masters will
own up
> to current political differences. At the time Shihan Dai Febres met,
knew
> and trained with them, they were much more open with their teachings.
you to date can prove none of this...... but please, dig a deeper hole
Those
> days have passed and we are lucky to have been there then.
>
> Everyone barking about Nindo Ryu in the newsgroups keeps trying to
impose
> today's Takamatsuden model as the way it was back in the 70's and
80's. That
> form of selective memory exposes the "new guard" to the people WHO
WERE
> THERE. GET OVER IT.
you mean what is accepted as the legitimate lineage? You were there?
again, prove it if you can, name stealer hewey....
> Bottom Line - If you're looking for traditions - look elsewhere. We
don't
> want any part of politics disguised as "tradition."
>
translation: we made it all up and dont care that it isnt real.....
geezerex
"Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
>
> Tatsumaky wrote in message
<19990729133411...@ng-cj1.aol.com>...
> >
> >Yeah I understand your position on that. But if its made up (the
ninjutsu
> section of nindo)
> >from Togakure ryu, then just say so or even if its your own modern
creation
> then
> >thats fine to.
>
> Thanks. I'm glad you finally understand.
translation: thank you for not flaming me......
> By the way, have you been to our site yet? With a single reading of
the
> founder's page, the fact that Febres created all of Nindo Ryu should
be
> obvious to the most casual of observers.
translation: shill,shill,shill...........
> I have never questioned that the Takamatsuden could be valid arts, if
they
> are properly applied. I have, however, been curious that things have
changed
> so much in such a short period of time. For a koryu regime, things
seem to
> have been modified considerably through the past few decades [a fairly
short
> period of time - in perspective with the length of claimed lineage].
which you have admitted you have no connection to and likely know dick
about.........
> However, change *can_be* good, if done properly... :-)
let us know when you get there, ie: stop posturing as something you're
not, stop badmouthing those who are, and stop revamping your
"commentary" to suit this week's online ass kicking......
> Peace,
> Houston Haynes
> Nindo Ryu Webmaster
> http://www.nindoryu.com
>
>
Nicholas Steele
ninjutsu training, and made it all up? If so, why call in ninjutsu? (sorry,
why say it is derived from something you admit no one in Nindo ryu ever
studied?)
Nicholas
Houston Haynes <h...@nospam.gte.net> wrote in message
news:nK0o3.283$m95....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
> Thanks. I'm glad you finally understand.
>
> By the way, have you been to our site yet? With a single reading of the
> founder's page, the fact that Febres created all of Nindo Ryu should be
> obvious to the most casual of observers.
>
>
geezerex
That pesky word liar comes to mind, but if you bare in mind Hewey has
been caught stretching the truth in most things that he's said, Nindo
Ryu claims other origins on their website as well, that Hewey is the
webmaster of, one might go so far to offer hewey the oppurtunity to give
proof of those affiliations as well......
Shinobi
news:7nt5ik$30p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <x5kn3.133$bm....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
> "Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
> > Recon, If you want to compare Nindo Ryu techniques - come to class.
> >
> > Shinobi - you're the biggest pencil-necked fraud of them all (beside
> > LEESENSEI perhaps). Go back to your porn cites and stay there. Someday
> > you'll just go blind and not find your computer any more. RMA will
> raise in
> > a collective sigh of relief on that day.
> >
> > Go away and play children. The adults here have adult things to talk
> > about...
Fuck you Houston Boy! Go play with your fat belly you piece of shit fraud!
Me a fraud? Please, at least I train in a legit Ninpou organization! You
don't, wake up fat boy!
E
LEESENSEI
>ninjutsu training, and made it all up? If so, why call in ninjutsu? (sorry,
>why say it is derived from something you admit no one in Nindo ryu ever
>studied?)
>
>Nicholas
Ahh, but that is the Million Dollar question isn't it ?
Lee Drew
Birmingham Bujinkan Dojo
Houston Haynes
LEESENSEI wrote in message <19990802195443...@ng-fh1.aol.com>...
>
>Ahh, but that is the Million Dollar question isn't it ?
No Lee, the question is: When are you circle jerks going to stop falming
and begin TRAINING for once in your pathetic life?
I have heard that your taijutsu is awfully puny, and that's why you 1) have
NEVER posted a technique of yours on the internet, and 2) need to spend all
your time denigrating others, to bring them down to your level in a forum
where you can't be exposed as a real-world martial arts fraud.
Get a life.
geezerex
lees...@aol.com (LEESENSEI) wrote:
> > So does this mean that you once and for all admit that Mr. Febres
has no
> >ninjutsu training, and made it all up? If so, why call in ninjutsu?
(sorry,
> >why say it is derived from something you admit no one in Nindo ryu
ever
> >studied?)
> >
> >Nicholas
>
>
> Birmingham Bujinkan Dojo
>
>
not to sound like a broken record, but if any nindoer would like to hand
hewey the answer, WE'RE WAITING......................
Shinobi
> No Lee, the question is: When are you circle jerks going to stop falming
> and begin TRAINING for once in your pathetic life?
>
> I have heard that your taijutsu is awfully puny, and that's why you 1)
have
> NEVER posted a technique of yours on the internet, and 2) need to spend
all
> your time denigrating others, to bring them down to your level in a forum
> where you can't be exposed as a real-world martial arts fraud.
Your taijutsu is pathetic Hewey so keep typing fat boy fuck face!
Go make some more avi's of you flipping burgers dickface!
J Merz
I am now terming "Houstie's Hooey")
Okay Houstie, let's see what kind of drivel your flatulent master is demanding
you post this time....
Houston Haynes wrote
> No Lee, the question is: When are you circle jerks going to stop falming
> and begin TRAINING for once in your pathetic life?
Well, gee, are you going to follow your own advice and do the same. And by
training I suppose we could ask that you train at an actual LEGITIMATE ninjutsu
dojo and not that McMartial Arts Franchise nightmare of outright bullcrap that
you all insist on calling (inaccurately) "nindo-ryu." And also, you should
know that everyone who's been calling you out on this forum trains a) more than
you and b) in an art that actually has roots and techniques far above whatever
mish-mash garbage you all practice.
> I have heard that your taijutsu is awfully puny,
And who said that? I've seen Lee in action before and it's nothing to throw
crullers at (just trying to use donut terminology so you can understand better
Houstie). This is an insipid comment, but what else can we expect from someone
who "represents" a martial arts school as bogus as its "substitute teacher"
(That's what Dai Shihan means in idiomatic Japanese. Of course it could
tranlate to: "Goddamn that's a fat ass" too, which would be tons more
accurate, mind the pun)
> and that's why you 1) have
> NEVER posted a technique of yours on the internet,
No one needs to post on the internet to prove how capable they are. I can name
off countlesss teachers (GOOD TEACHERS) or any number of styles that wouldn't
dream of posting mpegs of themselves simply because they have nothing to
prove. See, the real point is that you guys HAVE TO post mpegs simply in an
attempt to try to dissuade people from believing that you are all the biggest
shysters this side of a carnival.
> and 2) need to spend all
> your time denigrating others, to bring them down to your level in a forum
> where you can't be exposed as a real-world martial arts fraud.
Uh, yeah this is another example of an unconvincing argument. Lee and others
out here are constantly on your ass because we don't want anyone out there
falling for your bullshit and losing their hard-earned cash to your fat
master's belly. We've attempted to discuss the fact that nindo-ryu is a
forgery in a diplomatic manner to which you responded like a true criminal and
began lashing out at us simply because you know what we all write is true:
nindo-ryu has NOTHING to do with real ninjutsu at ALL. It is made up junk that
you guys call "nindo" in an attempt to cash in on a real art with real history
and real techniques that work as well today as they did hundreds of years ago.
We've posted questions to which you don't respond. You change your rhetoric at
least once a week. You insult others who try to get you to answer our
questions. All you do is run run run away from the inevitable conclusion we've
already established: nindo-ryu is absolute bullshit.
Jon F. Merz
"What do you mean you don't have any more?"
"I'm sorry sir, that man just bought the entire stock."
"But this is a DONUT shop. You guys sell donuts!"
"Yes, but that fat man just bought every last one of them."
"So make some more!"
"He bought the uncooked ones too, sir. And the flour to make more. And the
sugar."
"All of it?"
"Yes."
"Damn!"
-overheard in a Florida donut shop last week.
Houston Haynes
J Merz wrote in message <37A6707E...@macol.net>...
[no need to repeat]
You represent your school too well.
J Merz
the Bujinkan. My thoughts on dealing with ignorant and blatant frauds
like the nindo-ryu are my own. If you are implying that by stating my
opinions, I am therefore representing the Bujinkan, well then that is
also erroneous as I have no position within that organization except as
a student.
And if this is the best post you can respond with, you are simply ONCE
AGAIN proving to the world that the nindo-ryu is an outright scam.
Jon F. Merz
geezerex
"Houston Haynes" <h...@nospam.gte.net> wrote:
>
> LEESENSEI wrote in message
<19990802195443...@ng-fh1.aol.com>...
> >
>
falming
> and begin TRAINING for once in your pathetic life?
>
have
> NEVER posted a technique of yours on the internet, and 2) need to
spend all
> your time denigrating others, to bring them down to your level in a
forum
> where you can't be exposed as a real-world martial arts fraud.
>
>
>
Did lee strike a nerve, hewey? I know the truth must sting for you, but
since you cant answer a straight question truthfully, and you yourself
have have flamed, insulted and misrepresented others, one might say that
pot looks pretty black from your vantage point. Either answer the
questions posed to you, or admit that you cant or just shut up, but
above all, get over yourself. Your opinion means nothing here.
geezerex
"Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
>
> J Merz wrote in message <37A6707E...@macol.net>...
>
> [no need to repeat]
>
> You represent your school too well.
>
>
¤KONO¤
news:37A6FB91...@macol.net...
> No actually I don't represent any school at all. I am a
practitioner in
> the Bujinkan. My thoughts on dealing with ignorant and blatant
frauds
> like the nindo-ryu are my own. If you are implying that by stating
my
> opinions, I am therefore representing the Bujinkan, well then that
is
> also erroneous as I have no position within that organization except
as
> a student.
>
> And if this is the best post you can respond with, you are simply
ONCE
> AGAIN proving to the world that the nindo-ryu is an outright scam.
You are the only scam, your fights are fixed, because your mamas don't
make enough $$$ on the streets, and this is a forum for fucking
child-molesters, it's been announced.
--
"I have every right to be silly."
"What makes you think i wanna learn?"
GICHOKE - gic...@aol.com
"A shoot is a very specific move and I don't believe that I have
ever seen it done outside a ring."
Chas - gryp...@home.com
>
> Jon F. Merz
¤KONO¤
> In article <PFrp3.857$p5.3...@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
Hear fuckin' hear. rotflmao.
--
"I have every right to be silly."
"What makes you think i wanna learn?"
GICHOKE - gic...@aol.com
"A shoot is a very specific move and I don't believe that I have
ever seen it done outside a ring."
Chas - gryp...@home.com
Xanathos
"Either answer the
questions posed to you, or admit that you cant or just shut up, but
above all, get over yourself. Your opinion means nothing here."
If you guys believe Houston is just full of hot air, why do your posts outnuber
his 10 to 1 ?
¤KONO¤
He's all talk and no battle. Such a pity.
--
"I have every right to be silly."
"What makes you think i wanna learn?"
GICHOKE - gic...@aol.com
"A shoot is a very specific move and I don't believe that I have
ever seen it done outside a ring."
Chas - gryp...@home.com
Xanathos <xana...@aol.comNoSpAm> wrote in message
news:19990803232555...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
Bakeneko
<< I have heard that your taijutsu is awfully puny, and that's why you 1) have
NEVER posted a technique of yours on the internet, >>
Maybe Lee does not do so because he feels no desire to have others admire him
as a ninja master, unlike you and your master Carlos Febres who started his
own art in order to elevate himself in the eyes of others. People like you put
more emphisis on what other people think of you, while some of us are selfish
in that we place a lot of importance on what we know ourselves to be and would
not be as satisfied with being praised as in the self knowlege that we did a
good job.
I feel that this is the big difference between you and us. To me, my self-
respect and self- worth are more important than the opinions of others. It is
hard for me to detest Carlos Febres, because there is no sense of 'self' in him
and little left other than a shell and a puppet that blows in the wind of
public opinion.
I have looked at Febres and it has helped me to understand. He seeks
greatness- in other people's eyes. Fame, admiration, envy- all that which comes
from others. The opinions of others comes ahead of his knowledge of what he has
to do to achieve it. Some people might call him selfish, but he has no self to
protect. I am selfish in that I place my opinion of myself as a person over the
opinions of others, and that I would not care for fame if I knew
that I did not deserve it.
You do not want to be builders, you want to be known as builders. You don't
want to become masters, only to be called masters. The knowledge of what you
are is less important than what you can make other believe you to be.
I could not live like that. To me, the simple knowledge that I am the best I
can be, and that the Don Roley today is a little better than the Don Roley last
week but not as good as the Don Roley of next week, is enough. Someday I may be
great, but that knowledge will have to come from inside and spread outwards
instead of surrendering my self image to the opinions of others.
With my knowledge I could set myself up in America as a ninja martial arts
master and construct a story that few people could tell was fake. It would be
child's play to someone like me. But after the students all bowed and called me
master, and I counted the money they paid me, I would still have to look at the
same face in the mirror and know what I had given away, what part of me I had
sacrificed upon their alter of acceptance.
I can't say that I have faith in any religion, but if I hold anything sacred
it would be truth and freedom, and one leads from the other. I am free to
choose what I want and say what I want. I do not have to worry about my image,
because I give no importance to it. I do not have to limit what I say or write,
because I have no prior lies to worry about contradicting. I look at Febres,
see how he hides, afraid to make statements in public for fear of
them coming back to haunt him and I see how the truth really does make one
free. I can't even imagine how he can live with himself, knowing that he has
turned his own flesh and blood and bound her to the lie he had to create to be
accepted in the eyes of others.
I have no such concerns or regrets. I can leave the Bujinkan tomorrow if I
wish. I could do anything I like and not worry about a lack of fame or worship,
because I never sought it in the first place. I look at Febres and I see how he
is nothing more than a puppet that dances to the command of other people and I
know that he believes he is in control, but he could never do what I can and
that makes him not an object of hatred, but of pity.
<<snip>.
If you had the name "Carlos Febres style American Kenpo" and ran your classes
you would earn nothing but my pity. Even if you were honest in your claims and
stories I would treat you with the respect any other person deserved. But you
churn out faulty and erroneous tracts on history and the like and muddy the
data base available to others. There are probably several people that now think
that a kamayari is a scythe instead of a spear thanks to you,
just to give but one example. I have spent a lot of time trying to put well
meaning but erroneous writers of 'history' in line, but the difference between
them and you is that they seek the truth and when convinced of it change their
premise. You only write to make what you do sound like ninjutsu, increase your
standing in the eyes of others and attract students. And if the truth is
sacrificed to those goals you will not stoop to do it.
This is why you do not see me making a big deal out of groups like the Black
Dragon Society and their former president Ashida Kim, they spend little time
muddying the waters like you do. If you were honest, I could convince you, but
we all know your real intentions are nothing more than benefiting yourselves.
Truth means a lot to me, and than makes me your enemy.
geezerex
xana...@aol.comNoSpAm (Xanathos) wrote:
> The Troll Geezerex wrote:
> "Either answer the
> questions posed to you, or admit that you cant or just shut up, but
> above all, get over yourself. Your opinion means nothing here."
>
> If you guys believe Houston is just full of hot air, why do your posts
outnuber
> his 10 to 1 ?
>
>
relent. Troll that.
Houston Haynes
>
>when he answered the questions posed to him, the pressure to do so will
>relent. Troll that.
Such sharp reposte! Your teacher would be so proud of you!
You do not like my replies. That DOES NOT mean that I have not answered.
In a previous post, I asked LEESENSEI some direct questions about Hatsumi's
connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
reference it, he should be able to back it up.
I have yet to receive any answer at all. NOT ONE WORD [not surpising]
Answer me this - if Hatsumi was not pivotal in fostering the commercial
ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of his
personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?
Are you still trying to say that he had NO MOTIVE in dropping his previous
budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu (through
lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
Iga-Ueno?
Give me a break.
History is a double-edge sword, is it not?
Nicholas Steele
so he could commercialize it in America? If so how do you explain the fact
that he was known as teaching Togakure ryu ninjutsu long before Stephen
Hayes should up at his door? And when Hayes did arrive Hatsumi had only a
handful of students. Hardly the way to go about making money off an art. The
fact is Takamatsu sensei taught it all under the umbrella of Togakure ryu
and Hatsumi sensei continued. Maybe he realized what was being taught was
being misunderstood by non-Japanese, so now he emphasizes the other ryu that
have been the cornerstone of Bujinkan technique. Maybe he is trying to
protect the image of ninjutsu as he perceives it from greedy, opportunistic
Puerto Ricans. Hatsumi sensei is the head of the Bujinkan and if he wants to
call what he teaches "Kikuza namero ryu" that's his prerogative; the fact
remains he has no problem explaining where he learned his art from. Which
reminds me, who was it again that taught Carlos Febres ninjutsu?
Nicholas Steele
Houston Haynes <h...@nospam.gte.net> wrote in message
news:hs_p3.246$OO4....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
Kreth
wrote:
>geezerex hunted and pecked in message <7o9q73$k9l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>
>>when he answered the questions posed to him, the pressure to do so will
>>relent. Troll that.
>
>Such sharp reposte! Your teacher would be so proud of you!
>
>You do not like my replies. That DOES NOT mean that I have not answered.
>
>In a previous post, I asked LEESENSEI some direct questions about Hatsumi's
>connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
>reference it, he should be able to back it up.
>
>I have yet to receive any answer at all. NOT ONE WORD [not surpising]
>
>Answer me this - if Hatsumi was not pivotal in fostering the commercial
>ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of his
>personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?
>
>Are you still trying to say that he had NO MOTIVE in dropping his previous
>budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu (through
>lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
>Iga-Ueno?
>
>Give me a break.
>
>History is a double-edge sword, is it not?
>
Keep back-pedalling, Houston! Evading a question is not the same as
answering it. You have provided no satisfactory answer to the question
of who offered your Dai Shihan an 8th dan in the Bujinkan. You've
given no satisfactory answer to the question of why he wrote an
article on one weapon and accompanied it with a picture of a different
weapon. And in recent memory, you blew off my query about whether you
informed Bud Malmstrom of your attacks against his teacher when you
visited his dojo. Somehow I think not...
Jeff Velten
Kreth
<sean_st...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What happened with Bud??
>
Houston here vistited BAD, probably to get a look at real martial
arts. He's been taking shots at Hatsumi sensei here over the past few
months, I'm curious whether he had the balls to mention them to Bud. I
would guess no...
Kreth
>
>
>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
>The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
geezerex
"Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
> geezerex hunted and pecked in message <7o9q73$k9l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
> >when he answered the questions posed to him, the pressure to do so
will
> >relent. Troll that.
>
> Such sharp reposte! Your teacher would be so proud of you!
At least he isnt a fraud. Like it or not hewey, I am a big boy, my
comments are mine not my teachers nor representative of him, any notion
they are is a copout and an attempt to keep from answering questions
asked of you.
> You do not like my replies. That DOES NOT mean that I have not
answered.
mainly because you didnt answer, what wasnt falsehood was spin
doctoring... answer the questions.
> In a previous post, I asked LEESENSEI some direct questions about
Hatsumi's
> connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
> reference it, he should be able to back it up.
>
> I have yet to receive any answer at all. NOT ONE WORD [not surpising]
You asked those questions to redirect the heat you were getting for not
answering the questions posed to you. Answer them.
> Answer me this - if Hatsumi was not pivotal in fostering the
commercial
> ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of
his
> personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?
That's not for me to answer, ask Hatsumi....
> Are you still trying to say that he had NO MOTIVE in dropping his
previous
> budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu
(through
> lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
> Iga-Ueno?
exactly when did I say any of this you silly thing? Your words: are you
still saying: In direct personal reference to myself, when and where,
word for word did I say this, and because we both know I made no claims
in reference to this at all, good, bad or indifferent, you're fulla
shit.
> Give me a break.
which limb?
> History is a double-edge sword, is it not?
>
>
Not when you keep making it up. You get a little more sad every day.
geezerex
commercial
> > ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of
his
> > personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?
> >
previous
> > budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu
(through
> > lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
> > Iga-Ueno?
> >
> >
> > History is a double-edge sword, is it not?
> >
> >
>
>
the same voices in Hewey's head that told him I made claims that I've
nevered made in this reply to me. Once again, and please just call him,
hewey, he likes it when you do that, hewey is making up history to avoid
the shame of his previous misstatements. The lightning round of
questions awaits hewey. Answer the questions.
geezerex
kr...@mkl.com (Kreth) wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Aug 1999 17:08:29 GMT, "Houston Haynes" <h...@nospam.gte.net>
>
> >geezerex hunted and pecked in message
<7o9q73$k9l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >>
> >>when he answered the questions posed to him, the pressure to do so
will
> >>relent. Troll that.
> >
> >Such sharp reposte! Your teacher would be so proud of you!
> >
answered.
> >
Hatsumi's
> >connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
> >reference it, he should be able to back it up.
> >
> >I have yet to receive any answer at all. NOT ONE WORD [not surpising]
> >
commercial
> >ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of
his
> >personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?
> >
> >Are you still trying to say that he had NO MOTIVE in dropping his
previous
> >budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu
(through
> >lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
> >Iga-Ueno?
> >
> >Give me a break.
> >
> >History is a double-edge sword, is it not?
> >
> answering it. You have provided no satisfactory answer to the question
> of who offered your Dai Shihan an 8th dan in the Bujinkan.
but by wording it this way you have given him the opening to it again. I
mean no disrespect, but this is what he always does. We need to stop
leaving him that "out".
You've
> given no satisfactory answer to the question of why he wrote an
> article on one weapon and accompanied it with a picture of a different
> weapon. And in recent memory, you blew off my query about whether you
> informed Bud Malmstrom of your attacks against his teacher when you
> visited his dojo. Somehow I think not...
>
> Jeff Velten
>
Given that Bud would likely make him cry for the audience, one wonders
why.
Wobblebum
>are properly applied. I have, however, been curious that things have changed
>so much in such a short period of time. For a koryu regime, things seem to
>have been modified considerably through the past few decades [a fairly short
>period of time - in perspective with the length of claimed lineage].
>
and just on what do you base your observation that things have changed in the
past few decades on? Were you training at the time of Takamatsu? Although
Hatsumi Sensei is creative with his variations on techniques, the fundamental
Kata from each of the six openly taught schools remain unchanged. If you look
at the Video of Takamatsu which Hatsumi has, you will, if you've got any
knowledge of the matter, recognise the techniques which we in the Bujinkan
still practice today, so what's changed Mr Haynes?
lots of love,
the wobbly one
XXXXXXXXXXX
Wobblebum
>fact is Takamatsu sensei taught it all under the umbrella of Togakure ryu
>and Hatsumi sensei continued.
And where does this "fact" come from? I only ask because I've read that one of
the original Bujinkan Shihan said that Hatsumi decided on the Togakure tag in
the mid 1960s.
Shinobi
> In article <hs_p3.246$OO4....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
> "Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
> > In a previous post, I asked LEESENSEI some direct questions about
> Hatsumi's
> > connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
> > reference it, he should be able to back it up.
> >
> > I have yet to receive any answer at all. NOT ONE WORD [not surpising]
Ok since I missed this above post, I'll answer for Lee.
I am currently researching the lineage's of the Bujinkan, connected arts,
Takamatsu sensei's arts, and Hatsumi sensei's previous arts.
By the way Hewey Chub, its Bokuden ryuu, not Bukuden, learn how to spell a
ryuuha before asking a question about it. There are so many ryuuha in
Japan's history, that being off by one letter, it could be a totally
different tradition.
Hatsumi sensei learned Bokuden ryuu from Ueno Takashi, his Kobudou teacher
before Takamatsu sensei. And another thing Hewey, Kobudou in this sense
means 'old martial ways' not Okinawan weapons, thats the problem when the
frauds and un-educated dickbags like you try to make a point. You got your
wires crossed, so let me punch you in the fucking skull and un-cross them
for you, hehehe..........
Regarding Masaki ryuu Kusari Fundou, Hatsumi sensei learned this style from
Yumio Nawa, ever hear of him, you must have, I'm sure your fat ass fraud of
a teacher is claiming some kind of connection to him too, hehehe......LOL
So go buy the Bugei Ryuuha Daijiten, learn some Japanese and learn how to
read and you'll see all this in the big book!
Fuck you Houston Haynes, your a master of nothing except Fat!
LMAO,
Eric
Bakeneko
<<In a previous post, I asked LEESENSEI some direct questions about Hatsumi's
connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
reference it, he should be able to back it up.
I have yet to receive any answer at all. NOT ONE WORD [not surprising]>>
Shinobi covered this pretty well and I will just add a few points. First of
all, please write it correctly. Anyone who tries to present them self as a
master of Japanese military history like you do should know who Tsukuhara
Bokuden was.
If you want confirmation of Hatsumi's training in this art under Ueno, contact
the Nihon Dentou Bujutus Renseikai. I am sure that anyone who writes as much
about Japanese history as you do should be able to contact them, unless you
really can't even speak or read Japanese and are just posing.
As for the Masaki ryu, several Japanese Shihan have told me that Hatsumi
decided to introduce the use of flexible weapons by using the Masaki ryu
manriki kusari instead of something longer at first. And Ellis Amdur also
confirmed the fact that Hatsumi trained under Yumio Nawa and got training in
the manriki kusari from him. You can contact Nawa yourself if you want more
info.
<<Answer me this - if Hatsumi was not pivotal in fostering the commercial
ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of his
personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?>>
Are they? This is the first I heard of this. I know that Fujita Seiko's vast
library of books on ninjutsu were left to the museum after he died, since he
left no one to succeed him. But I have never seen anything saying that anything
from Hatsumi is in the thing until you started saying this. Considering your
past willingness to lie, I think you will need to refer to your sources before
anyone will believe you.
<<Are you still trying to say that he had NO MOTIVE in dropping his previous
budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu (through
lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
Iga-Ueno?>>
Ah, but anyone who is a member of the Ninpo-l list at any time should know
that Takamatsu and Hatsumi were asked to be technical advisors to the movie
"Shinobi no Mono" because they had a reputation among a small group of people
as being the grandmasters of Togakure ryu Ninjutsu. According to a rumor I
heard, the person to recommend them was Yoshio Sugino but I have not yet
confirmed it. It is no secret, in fact it is a matter of pride among Bujinkan
members. There is no dispute that they were advisors on the movie. And the fact
that the movie came out in 1962 is easily confirmed. So we can see that
Takamatsu and Hatsumi were known as grandmasters of Togakure ryu well before
the time frame you try to present.
You don't know what you are talking about half the time and the other half you
know the facts but try to cover them up. Go out and learn Japanese and really
study the history before you put your foot in your mouth again please.
Don Roley
J Merz
Houston Haynes wrote:
> Such sharp reposte! Your teacher would be so proud of you!
Do you guys get donut bonuses for having the lamest posting of the week? If
so, I think you'll have some crullers headed your way.
>
>
> You do not like my replies. That DOES NOT mean that I have not answered.
Well, I'm STILL waiting to hear your explanation of who supposedly offered
Fatso rank in the Bujinkan. Or was it, offered him the chance to test for
it. Or was it said hello to him. Gee, with you nindo-ryu-sers, it's alwasy
different. WHy not set the record straight and tell it all?
>
>
> In a previous post, I asked LEESENSEI some direct questions about Hatsumi's
> connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
> reference it, he should be able to back it up.
Here again, you display your pathetic grasp of the Japanese language. Would
you PLEASE go take some language lessons? At least then you could actually
SOUND like you have a vague clue.
>
>
> I have yet to receive any answer at all. NOT ONE WORD [not surpising]
>
> Answer me this - if Hatsumi was not pivotal in fostering the commercial
> ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of his
> personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?
God you guys must be being fed this stupid propaganda bullshit by the
shovelfull down there in FL. And as usual you have no real clue about the
facts. Not shocking though since you always speak without thinking.
Portions of his personal collection are on display at that museum, you moron,
because it's his museum. It was established a long time ago and several
shihan have actually worked at it and maintained it for him. Has nothing to
do with the commercialization of ninjutsu any more than the Air & Space Museum
has to do with the commercialization of air travel. God get a clue!
>
>
> Are you still trying to say that he had NO MOTIVE in dropping his previous
> budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu (through
> lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
> Iga-Ueno?
Huh? What the hell are you talking about? Hatsumi-sensei motivation to study
ninjutsu came after he was concerned with failings he'd found in his other
martial practices. He wanted a real system of self-protection, was
recommmended to Takamatsu-sensei and that's it. The Togakure-ryu has been
known for ages prior to the ninja boom of the 80's! Don ROley mentioned
"Shinobi no Mono" and Hatsumi-sensei also acted as technical advisor for "You
Only Live Twice" the James Bond film of '63. Shinobi no Mono is actually a
series of films filmed in the 1950's. Takamatsu-sensei was known to be the
grandmaster of the Togakure-ryu for years before anyone started a boom.
>
> History is a double-edge sword, is it not?
I'm still waiting to read the fantasy-world version of nindo-ryu. Speaking of
timelines, Fatso must have learned his "ninjitsu" through osmosis since it
seems he would have been extremely young once he gained his
"grandmastership". WHy not provide us with a timeline so we can compare it
with reality and contact people he's supposed to have trained with.
Oh by the way there, Houstie: why don't you tell your little miscreant
cultists down in New Bedford to stop sending me threatening emails. "Rik
Hodgkins", aka Riki Glen at "hodg...@mailcity.com" sent me this pathetic mail
today. I'll post it here for everyone's enjoyment.
'Ooh sticks and stones you scary ninja type. If you think your hard enough
I'll come down to Brighton and I'll teach you some manners. Alternatively
myself and a representative can come up to your dojo and teach you and your
students a real lesson.'
Newsflash: I don't have a dojo. Just been working out in the Bujinkan for
many years. Tell your foolish little fan club that sending threatening emails
is a criminal activity. But they can always come up to where I work out and
try a class. Doubt they will though. Losers like this never do. Keyboard
bravado.
Jon F. Merz
geezerex
bake...@aol.com (Bakeneko) wrote:
> Houston Haynes wrote,
>
> <<In a previous post, I asked LEESENSEI some direct questions about
Hatsumi's
> connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
> reference it, he should be able to back it up.
>
commercial
> ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of
his
> personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?>>
>
Seiko's vast
> library of books on ninjutsu were left to the museum after he died,
since he
> left no one to succeed him. But I have never seen anything saying that
anything
> from Hatsumi is in the thing until you started saying this.
Considering your
> past willingness to lie, I think you will need to refer to your
sources before
> anyone will believe you.
>
previous
> budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu
(through
> lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
> Iga-Ueno?>>
>
He is not presenting a thing, much like the flabby one he calls master
made up nindo roo, he made all of this up one night over some ho-hos
with febres..... kinda sad.
Recon1324
>
>Go make some more avi's of you flipping burgers dickface!
Hey E, how can HHH have taijutsu? I think you meant to say "Your shitty
fake-ass ninjer-krotty is pathetic". And please, refer to him by his proper
martial name...Jar Jar Dickbag.
Gerry
Kreth
>Hatsumi-sensei also acted as technical advisor for "You
>Only Live Twice" the James Bond film of '63
Jon,
I had understood that Hatsumi sensei was asked to do this movie, but
then walked out when the production crew were late for a meeting with
him. This is from one of Sensei's books, I can dig it up if you want.
Also, a quick check on us.imdb.com doesn't list any technical advisor
in the crew listing.
Jeff Velten
J Merz
it does still establish Hatsumi-sensei as being a viable and well-known
persona prior to what Houstie claims.
See Houstie, this is how you accept the fact that you made a mistake.
You should give it a try.
Thanks for the info Jeff.
Jon F. Merz
Shinobi
> Answer me this - if Hatsumi was not pivotal in fostering the commercial
> ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of his
> personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?
Hewey, fat ass, listen, its bOkuden ryuu not bUkuden ryuu ok? Learn to spell
fucker!
Two, is Hatsumi's artifacts in Iga Ueno Ninja museum? Or is it Seiko
Fujitas? Hmmmmm.....................
Think you wrong again as usually dickbag!
> Are you still trying to say that he had NO MOTIVE in dropping his previous
> budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu (through
> lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
> Iga-Ueno?
He dropped his previous practice cause Takamatsu sensei was a much higher
skilled Budouka then Ueno, I would do the same!
Museum again, what of Hatsumi's is in the museum fuckface?
Housty chubby boy,
fuck off you fraud,
Eric
Shinobi
> Portions of his personal collection are on display at that museum, you
moron,
> because it's his museum. It was established a long time ago and several
> shihan have actually worked at it and maintained it for him. Has nothing
to
> do with the commercialization of ninjutsu any more than the Air & Space
Museum
> has to do with the commercialization of air travel. God get a clue!
Just to clear a few things up on the museum issue.
His collection of Ninja weapons IS NOT, I REPEAT, IS NOT, at Iga Ueno, but
at Mt. Togakure/Togakushi above Nagano city! And Muramatsu Shihan did work
there.
> Don ROley mentioned
> "Shinobi no Mono" and Hatsumi-sensei also acted as technical advisor for
"You
> Only Live Twice" the James Bond film of '63. Shinobi no Mono is actually
a
> series of films filmed in the 1950's. Takamatsu-sensei was known to be
the
> grandmaster of the Togakure-ryu for years before anyone started a boom.
Ok the Shinobi no Mono series was from 1962 to 1966, I have 8 of the 9
movies, I think there is a 9th, not sure! The first two are awesome for
there time!
Hatsumi and Takamatsu were technical advisors for at least the first one.
Regarding "You Only Live Twice", the crew was supposed to meet Hatsumi
sensei at a hotel, they were late, he left. Then we see pics in Sanmyaku of
Hatsumi teaching the crew at his house in Noda ;-)
Oh by the way, Hewey, you a fucking asshole and a fraud!
Eric
Shinobi
news:S3%p3.1519$y94....@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
> Are you saying that Hatsumi sensei lumped everything under Togakure
ryu
> so he could commercialize it in America? If so how do you explain the fact
> that he was known as teaching Togakure ryu ninjutsu long before Stephen
> Hayes should up at his door? And when Hayes did arrive Hatsumi had only a
> handful of students. Hardly the way to go about making money off an art.
> fact is Takamatsu sensei taught it all under the umbrella of Togakure ryu
> being misunderstood by non-Japanese, so now he emphasizes the other ryu
that
> have been the cornerstone of Bujinkan technique. Maybe he is trying to
> protect the image of ninjutsu as he perceives it from greedy,
opportunistic
> Puerto Ricans. Hatsumi sensei is the head of the Bujinkan and if he wants
to
> call what he teaches "Kikuza namero ryu" that's his prerogative; the fact
> remains he has no problem explaining where he learned his art from. Which
> reminds me, who was it again that taught Carlos Febres ninjutsu?
Beautifully said Nicholas, and to answer your question who taught Fatboy
Febres, some monkey in Puerto Rico did, but Fatboy didn't listen to well,
the monkey told him only to eat fruits. Hehehehe..........
Oh yeah, Takamatsu sensei also had a handful of real students and didn't
make much of Budou if at all!
Eric
Houston Haynes
Wobblebum wrote in message <19990804170257...@ng-ba1.aol.com>...
>so what's changed Mr Haynes?
>
>the wobbly one
>XXXXXXXXXXX
This has changed, for one.
http://homestead.deja.com/user.kage_no_yama/togakuretech3.html
This has changed for two
http://homestead.deja.com/user.kage_no_yama/togakuretech2.html
This has changed for three.
http://homestead.deja.com/user.kage_no_yama/togakuretech1.html
Haven't you been paying attention?
J Merz
Assassins (which is a cute book for historical purposes but leaves a lot to be
desired in terms of authenticity) and History and Tradition, the first book
Hatsumi-sensei published in English some time ago. What I would suggest you do
is to go to TaiKai 2000 next year in Atlanta (hell, it's just a short drive for
you guys EVEN with having to stop for donuts every few miles) and see the man
himself. Or, you can come up to Boston where I work out when we host Stephen
for his annual seminar in Boston and ask HIM a few questions. Just be sure to
let us all know when you're coming so we can be sure to give you proper
"attention".
You nindo-ryu people are little shyster cultists who want to believe what you
do is real ninjutsu when you are so far from the real thing you have a better
chance of giving birth to a jelly donut than of ever doing a real ninjutsu
technique.
And in terms of your ability to defend the nindo-ryu, Houstie, it definitely
could be time to look for a new job. So far you haven't had a single
persuasive post. You haven't answered ant of our questions and you simply duck
and avoid anytime we bring you back on track.
Jon F. Merz
Houston Haynes
J Merz wrote in message <37A9A3A4...@macol.net>...
>It's always so great to see you base your findings on Ninja: The
Invisible
>Assassins (which is a cute book for historical purposes but leaves a lot to
be
>desired in terms of authenticity) and History and Tradition, the first book
>Hatsumi-sensei published in English some time ago.
Exactly my point, why have things changed so much?
First, Hatsumi is doing Kukishin ryu in judo gi and hakama, then the ninja
boom hits, and now he's settled comfortably in between those two extremes
with "budo taijutsu", wearing black gi pants and T-shirts with his face on
it.
What gives with changing spots every decade or so?
>What I would suggest you do
>is to go to TaiKai 2000 next year in Atlanta (hell, it's just a short drive
for
>you guys EVEN with having to stop for donuts every few miles) and see the
man
>himself. Or, you can come up to Boston where I work out when we host
Stephen
>for his annual seminar in Boston and ask HIM a few questions.
We've had recent contact with Shidoshi Hayes, and he has been a perfect
gentlemen in communicating with us, which is not what I can say for some of
you.
>Just be sure to
>let us all know when you're coming so we can be sure to give you proper
>"attention".
Ooooooooh another veiled threat. Well I've been to the BAD on several
occasions, and have been met with nothing but respectful and polite people
there, including Shidoshi Malmstrom. My student, John Casey, even went there
to check out one of there classes and found it to be most entertaining. I
don't think I'd have any problem going there, but hte fees at eh door are a
little bit too much just for a friendly visit.
>You nindo-ryu people are little shyster cultists who want to believe what
you
>do is real ninjutsu when you are so far from the real thing you have a
better
>chance of giving birth to a jelly donut than of ever doing a real ninjutsu
>technique.
And after the threats come the insults - don't you boys have anything better
to do? The repetition is getting to be a bit comical.
>And in terms of your ability to defend the nindo-ryu, Houstie, it
definitely
>could be time to look for a new job. So far you haven't had a single
>persuasive post. You haven't answered ant of our questions and you simply
duck
>and avoid anytime we bring you back on track.
Actually the track we have been on has always been the same. I'll give you
our first post:
[begin citations]
Subj: Nindo Ryu
Date: 97-07-14 23:51:08 EDT
From: NINDO
Posted on: America Online
For those of you that are curious about our system, Nindo Ryu, we welcome
you to visit our webb site:
Subj: Re:Nindo Ryu
Date: 97-07-16 02:45:50 EDT
From: NINDO
Posted on: America Online
My apologies for the problem with the web site. As soon as posible I'll
release the correct URL for the site. The basic information on Nindo Ryu is
included at this site, so, any questions can be address there.
Now..In responce to mr. or ms. [anonymous flamer]
I don't pretend to be [anything], I am a practitioner of Nindo Ryu and has
been for the last 25 years. This is not the first time we appear in this
BB... As a Nindo ryu Practitioner, I dont need to pretend. I am a student of
Nindo Ryu and as I have stated time and time before, Nindo Ryu is a moderm
interpretation of ninjutsu and does not have any direct conection to
Bujinkan, Togakure, Gembukan or for that matter, the Koga Ryu people of New
York.
So, for those of you that live in a glass bubble, [which] I hope is the
minority of you, we are a call to reality, a fresh wind maybe. To others,
who can and do live in reality, we are only another group of people in our
quest, the same quest that you are........with a different map.
I hope you will appreciate a little diversity but you may find that what we
do is not that different from what you do.
Again my apologies for the problem with the URL. I'll have the correct
addrees post here asap.
Carlos R. Febres
Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai
[end citations]
You can throw all the insults you want, but THIS IS THE TRACK, YOU MORONS.
We have never strayed from it one bit. It is YOU internet circle-jerks that
duck and dodge the facts of the matter and attempt to rewrite history in
order to suit the way you view the world today.
Get a life.
Kreth
wrote:
>What gives with changing spots every decade or so?
As opposed to what... changing spots when you get caught in a lie, a
la Nindo ryu?
Jeff Velten
Udo Rotmistrenko
I have been following your and the other posts for a while, however, I missed
the beginning and problem of the conversation.
I've been studying martial arts for almost 27 years of my life, where the main
arts where Judo (as a child) and Full Contact Taekwon-Do (WTF-style) in which I
also have been a successfull competitor in Germany (my origin).
I practised Shotokan as well as Hung Gar Kung Fu for a while...everything to
advance my knowledge of fighting techniques.
After long search I have found Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, that virtually
incorporated everything what I am looking for in ma, including and especially
the spiritual aspect.
I am aware that Soke Hatsumi has many critics within the Bujinkan community
including that he likes to make money...In Germany, some of his closest dojo's
seperated from him after a disasterous Tai Kai a few years ago.
Besides those faults, he is the 34. Grandmaster and he will not be the last.
Yes, he made Ninjustsu popular, by bringing it out of the closet. What is wrong
with that, and it is a fact that many people especially by the end of the
eighties and beginning of the nineties, jumped on the Bandwaggon of the
Ninjutsu boom. A lot of those people came from traditional 'non-Ninjutsu'
styles like Karate, Jujutsu, Military Personnel etc., put on a black gi and
announced to be practitioners of authentic Ninjutsu. Even last week I saw in a
Martial Art Supply Store a kid picking up a book with a Karate guy performing
"authentic Ninjutsu-Katas and stances", well, he was standing in traditional
positions and demonstrated those as "deadly" Ninjutsu Forms.
To my knowledge, Togakure Ryu is the only surviving school with an unbroken
history of Grandmasters. Where are comming all the other Ryu's from? If they
are recreated, why don't they admit to it, and stating that they revived a
tradition?
There is nothing wrong with honesty in martial arts.
I personally don't know Nindo Ryu, and going to their website, my browser
crashes all the time.
So, last but not least, I really don't understand why adult martial artist are
feuding in a way as they didn't understand martial arts at all.
Just my two cents
Udo
Houston Haynes wrote:
> geezerex hunted and pecked in message <7o9q73$k9l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
> >when he answered the questions posed to him, the pressure to do so will
> >relent. Troll that.
>
> Such sharp reposte! Your teacher would be so proud of you!
>
> You do not like my replies. That DOES NOT mean that I have not answered.
>
> In a previous post, I asked LEESENSEI some direct questions about Hatsumi's
> connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
> reference it, he should be able to back it up.
>
> I have yet to receive any answer at all. NOT ONE WORD [not surpising]
>
> Answer me this - if Hatsumi was not pivotal in fostering the commercial
> ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of his
> personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?
>
> Are you still trying to say that he had NO MOTIVE in dropping his previous
> budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu (through
> lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
> Iga-Ueno?
>
> Give me a break.
Udo Rotmistrenko
Houston Haynes
Udo Rotmistrenko wrote in message <37A9C9D5...@rittmeister.com>...
>Hello Houston;
>
>I have been following your and the other posts for a while, however, I
missed
>the beginning and problem of the conversation.
Here is the beginning - the very beginning:
[begin citations]
[end citations]
You tell me what the problem is...
Nicholas Steele
that is just how I interpreted something Hatsumi sensei may have said.
However, I do know that in "History and Traditions" the story is related
about a challenge in Toda sensei's dojo which is stated as being a Togakure
ryu dojo. So if Takamatsu sensei's teacher was running an openly
acknowledged Togakure ryu dojo it goes towards disproving Hayne's claims
Togakure ryu wasn't taught until Hatsumi sensei decided to start the "ninja
boom" and make money. Also, I believe that in more than one book Hatsumi
sensei speaks of training with Takamatsu in which it seems that ninjutsu is
used exclusively to refer to the training.
Nicholas
Wobblebum <wobb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990804170726...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
> >The
> >fact is Takamatsu sensei taught it all under the umbrella of Togakure ryu
> >and Hatsumi sensei continued.
>
> And where does this "fact" come from? I only ask because I've read that
one of
> the original Bujinkan Shihan said that Hatsumi decided on the Togakure tag
in
> the mid 1960s.
>
Nicholas Steele
>
> First, Hatsumi is doing Kukishin ryu in judo gi and hakama, then the ninja
> boom hits, and now he's settled comfortably in between those two extremes
> with "budo taijutsu", wearing black gi pants and T-shirts with his face on
> it.
>
Even you can't be this dense... The book you refer to was first published in
1971, well after Hatsumi sensei went public as the head of Togakure ryu. It
is easy to find pictures of Hatsumi sensei in black gi from before this
time. Surprise surprise it's also easy to find pictures of him in white gi
as well. If you are going to use the color of gi worn as the basis for your
arguements that he played up the ninja aspect for the ninja boom (starting
over a decade later I might add) you should resign as chief Nindo ryu
blowhole, and let someone else (preferably with at least a teensy grasp of
logic) take your place.
> Actually the track we have been on has always been the same. I'll give
you
> our first post:
>
> [begin citations]
>
> Subj: Nindo Ryu
> Date: 97-07-14 23:51:08 EDT
> From: NINDO
> Posted on: America Online
>
> As a Nindo ryu Practitioner, I dont need to pretend. I am a student of
> Nindo Ryu and as I have stated time and time before, Nindo Ryu is a moderm
> interpretation of ninjutsu and does not have any direct conection to
> Bujinkan, Togakure, Gembukan or for that matter, the Koga Ryu people of
New
> York.
>
>
> Carlos R. Febres
> Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai
>
> [end citations]
I hate to bring this up yet again, and to avoid any misunderstandings, or
defensive reaction I will try and be as non-offending as possible: Carlos
Febres claims Nindo ryu as a modern interpretation of ninjutsu. That is
perfectly acceptable as Hatsumi, Tanemura and Manaka all teach their
interpretations of ninjutsu. I humbly request that,as a representative of
Nindo ryu, you please inform us of the name of the ninutsu ryu that Febres
sensei studied as a basis of his interpretation of ninjutsu. I would also
ask for clarification on one point: in the original post you presented, and
copied above, Febres sensei states he does not have any direct connection to
Bujinkan, Togakure or Genbukan. Why then do you contradict the head of your
organization by continually playing up the fact that Febres sensei was
offered rank in Bujinkan, that he studied briefly with Tanemura, and is/was
a member of BFI? Thank you for your time in helping me understand this issue
better.
Nicholas Steele
J Merz
it with what you just posted shall we?
>>Shihan Dai Febres was given the martial name kagetora, or "shadow tiger"
early in his training. <<
By Who and WHEN did he officially begin his martial arts training?
>>His career in martial arts has lived up to the name, with his proven mastery
of
modern and traditional fighting systems. <<
Which ones and WHO has deemed that he has mastered them? Hell, I know Japanese
practitioners with 45 years of experience in only ONE system who still train as
if they know nothing, but your boy can do multiple systems and say he has
mastered them?
>>A pursuer of martial truth for more than 25 years,<<
oh yeah...this is priceless...
>>Shihan Dai Febres is a 1994 inductee into the World Martial Arts Hall of
Fame<<
And exactly WHICH organization sponsors this Hall of Fame? And give me a
contact person too, please....
>>and is the youngest 10th Dan to be acknowledged by Grandmaster Peter Urban.<<
First, WHO promoted him to 10th dan and in WHAT style exactly? Secondly, being
acknowledged by someone doesn't mean they endorse, respect, or even care about
who the hell you are. Plus, isn't Peter Urban deceased now?
>>Shihan Dai Febres holds rank in: Goshin Ryu Aikijujutsu (Kancho Shihan Jack
Herman), Kodai no Seichin Ryu IaiJutsu (Master Oscar Alicia), Ryu Sei Ken Batto
Do
(Hanshi Mitsuhiro Saruta, Soke), Circle of Samurai Ninpo Jutsu (Master Hector
Rodriguez), Shorin Ryu Karatedo (Master William Solano), Goju Ryu Karatedo
(Grandmaster Peter Urban), Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu Chin Na (Grandmaster Robert
Smith). <<
Okay, now tell us exactly what ranks he does hold. Hell, a white belt can say
he "holds rank" in any system. So WHAT does chubby have and WHEN was it
awarded and by WHO?
>> Educational and Professional Background - Shihan Dai
Febres possesses a Bachelor’s Degree in History, and a Master’s
Degree in Criminology. <<
From WHICH scholastic institutions? WHEN did he get them?
>>He is certified as a Police Officer and as a
Correctional Officer in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts<<
WHEN was he certified and WHO by?
>>& also
certified as a Juvenile Investigative Officer in the state of Florida.<<
Again: WHEN and by WHO, please be sure to give exact details so we can check
all this out for ourselves...
>> Febres is a member of the American Criminology Association,
American Correctional Association and the Police Tactics
Instructors of America. He works for the Department of Juvenile
Justice in Florida. <<
Now give us the contact information for all of these organizations so we can
check THIS out as well.
>> Shihan Dai Febres' martial arts abilites have also been recognized by these
organizations:<<
What EXACTLY do you mean by "recognized" since it's as ambiguous as your
"acknowledged" above...
>> Carlos R. Febres - outline of his experience with the
Takamatsuden - Beginning with the 1987 Second Annual World
Ninja Summit, Shihan Dai Febres was personally invited <<
BY WHO exactly?
>>to attend
events by instructors in Togakure Ryu, and trained with such martial
arts luminaries as Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura and Master Higuchi
in Ohio.<<
Haven't we all trained with these guys as well? Big deal.
>>At that time, he joined Bujinkan Fellowship International,
and was awarded Study Group Status for his Dojo in Puerto Rico.<<
"Study Group Status" means that he was allowed to have a bunch of fellow
trainees who knew as little as he did and call themselves a training group in
the understanding that there would be frequent training with a ranked
LEGITIMATE Bujinkan instructor. It does NOT mean he had carte blanche to think
he was able to do any of the Bujinkan techniques.
>> In 1988, he attended the Third Annual World Ninja Summit,
where he was asked to perform an
official demonstration of the
techniques of Nindo Ryu to the attendees
of the Summit. <<
By WHO exactly and WHEN did he demo his stuff and WHAT exactly was shown?
>>He continued in his study of Togakure Ryu NinJutsu (as it was called at
the time),<<
With WHO exactly and for how long?
>>He established the first Nindo Ryu dojo
in the
continental US in November 1988.<<
So despite the fact that he claims to (this is from your recent post Houstie)
have been doing 'nindo-ryu' for 25 years, he only established his first dojo 11
years ago? Hmmm, how interesting...doesn't quite add up there Houstie...:
'I don't pretend to be [anything], I am a practitioner of Nindo Ryu
and has
been for the last 25 years.'
>>At that time, he was also comparing and exchanging information in his system
with Hector
Rodriguez (Genbukan/Koga Ryu) in New
York.<<
And WHERE and WHEN did Hector get his rank from?
>> In the spring of 1989, Shihan Dai
Febres traveled to Ohio to
continue training with Higuchi Sensei in
Togakure Ryu, as well as
Higuchi's other arts - IaiJutsu/Iaido,
KenJutsu/Kendo, and Taiho
Jutsu. <<
So he had just under 2 WHOLE YEARS of experience in Togakure-ryu material?
Yeah, well, sure now I can understand why he'd want to go out and establish his
own chain of McMartial Arts.
>>He also attended the Forth Annual World Ninja summit in July
of that year, in which Shihan Dai Febres
was invited to participate as
a member of the teaching staff at the
event.<<
Now let's be REAL clear about this: The 4th Ninja Summit was a huge failure
because people who were supposed to have been teaching backed out. That left
the event organizers with a huge problem, namely 350+ attendees and nobody to
instruct. As I recall, Tanemura stepped up to the plate and did some of the
teaching (at least the participants got something of value) and "other"
so-called instructors were as well. Enter chubby the nindo-ryu clown. Your
boy was NOT on the initial list of instructors. He was the fall-back prom date
that nobody would have picked unless they were unbelievably desperate.
>>At that time, He was first
offered to test for rank in Togakure Ryu
NinJutsu, but declined the
opportunity. <<
Okay....BY WHO EXACTLY????
>>He kept in communication with Higuchi Sensei, <<
For how long?
.
>> In 1990, he continued to train with Sensei of various KoRyu as
well as modern BuJutsu. <<
So for a year he trains with every tom dick and harry in the Yellow Pages?
Well, let's see a list of EXACTLY WHO AND WHEN HE trained with these guys.
>>In 1991, Shihan Dai was once again approached by a Togakure Sensei withan
opportunity to test for rank in their system, and Febres again was not
able to accept that offer.<<
Here again....WHO EXACTLY OFFERED THIS AND WHEN?
>> Although Carlos Febres has met and interacted with parties mentioned
above, the Nine Shadows of Nindo Ryu
have no official, political, functional or technical connection to
Takamatsuden (known today as budo taijutsu). <<
So basically what you say here is that despite throwing some names around, you
haven't studied enough to know which end is up. But that won't stop you from
trying to market yourselves as the be all end all of BS.
> >> Nindo Ryu is a moderm
> interpretation of ninjutsu and does not have any direct conection to
> Bujinkan, Togakure, Gembukan or for that matter, the Koga Ryu people of New
> York.<<
...based upon a period of training that lasted ONLY two years. In other words,
you don't know squat about what the Bujinkan or any Koryu has to offer. Two
years isn't enough time to properly study kamae let alone an entire system.
And you claim to be able to interpret it? Give us all a break!
So there ya go Houstie, everything broken down with the QUESTIONS clearly
delineated for you to answer. Of course, you never will answer them because
you can't. At least not without exposing yourself (yet again) as the frauds
that you truly are.
But go ahead and prove me wrong. I'm waiting!
Jon F. Merz
Houston Haynes
Nicholas Steele wrote in message ...
>I thought I had read it in one of Hatsumi sensei's books, then again maybe
>that is just how I interpreted something Hatsumi sensei may have said.
>However, I do know that in "History and Traditions" the story is related
>about a challenge in Toda sensei's dojo which is stated as being a Togakure
>ryu dojo. So if Takamatsu sensei's teacher was running an openly
>acknowledged Togakure ryu dojo it goes towards disproving Hayne's claims
>Togakure ryu wasn't taught until Hatsumi sensei decided to start the "ninja
>boom" and make money.
I don't know if you realize this, but I was talking about any reference that
is pre-Yoshiaki Hatsumi that refers to teaching of Togakure syllabus to
anyone else from Takamatsu. "History and Traditions" was from the early
70's - well into the Japanese ninja boom. So it doesn't count. Sorry.
I will repeat myself - to help everyone keep from getting sidetracked - Does
anyone have menkyo or menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu from Takamatsu besides
Dr. Hatsumi?
Does Dr. Hatsumi have menkyo or menkyo kaiden in Masaki ryu or Bukuden ryu?
As Lee Drew claims that some of Bujinkan budo taijutsu comes from these
arts, it would stand to reason that by his definition then some makimono
must be held by Dr. Hatsumi in these disciplines.
If Dr. Hatsumi does not hold these credentials, and teaches the techniques
with minimal exposure to those arts, then Lee should have no trouble with
the practices in Nindo Ryu.
Right?
geezerex
a text book hewey dodge, throw out nebulous psuedo-factoids, never
really answering the question posed and then drop a well known name
quoting them as if you're qualified to. Lee Drew is a teacher with a
bujinkan, you are the shill of a hoho devourer who made something up. I
am happy to eduate you as to the difference there, hewey. Now be so kind
as to give a straight answer next time. You know, bullshit free.
geezerex
"Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
>
> Udo Rotmistrenko wrote in message
<37A9C9D5...@rittmeister.com>...
> >Hello Houston;
> >
> >I have been following your and the other posts for a while, however,
I
> missed
> >the beginning and problem of the conversation.
>
> Here is the beginning - the very beginning:
>
>
> Subj: Nindo Ryu
> Date: 97-07-14 23:51:08 EDT
> From: NINDO
> Posted on: America Online
>
welcome
> you to visit our webb site:
>
> Subj: Re:Nindo Ryu
> From: NINDO
> Posted on: America Online
>
I'll
> release the correct URL for the site. The basic information on Nindo
Ryu is
> included at this site, so, any questions can be address there.
>
> Now..In responce to mr. or ms. [anonymous flamer]
>
has
this
student of
> Nindo Ryu and as I have stated time and time before, Nindo Ryu is a
moderm
> interpretation of ninjutsu and does not have any direct conection to
> Bujinkan, Togakure, Gembukan or for that matter, the Koga Ryu people
of New
> York.
>
the
> minority of you, we are a call to reality, a fresh wind maybe. To
others,
> who can and do live in reality, we are only another group of people in
our
> quest, the same quest that you are........with a different map.
>
> I hope you will appreciate a little diversity but you may find that
what we
> do is not that different from what you do.
>
> Again my apologies for the problem with the URL. I'll have the correct
> addrees post here asap.
>
> Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai
>
> [end citations]
>
>
>
I'm not getting soft or anything, but the ho ho eater seems a little
more polite than hewey or any of the other shills.... if you want to be
an interpretation, that's dandy, but what is with the veiled jibe about
the glass bubble. Some might think that the nindoers came in here
looking to start something. Just my two cents.
J Merz
help from anyone else. I love this line:
'If Dr. Hatsumi does not hold these credentials, and teaches the techniques
with minimal exposure to those arts, then Lee should have no trouble with
the practices in Nindo Ryu.'
Because what it says is that the nindo ryu is teaching things which it has had
minimal exposure to & does not hold credentials to teach. It's probably as
blatant an admission to the fraud you perpetrate as we'll ever get out of you
losers.
And by the way, I don't know for sure whether Hatsumi-sensei has menkyo in the
Bokuden and Masaki-ryu, but he certainly has waited to teach them for a number
of decades since he actually wanted to put in more than 2 years of study.
UNLIKE what fatso did with ninjutsu.
And by the way, get busy on your response to my post. Can't wait to see your
answers.
Jon F. Merz
geezerex
kr...@mkl.com (Kreth) wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Aug 1999 16:23:35 GMT, "Houston Haynes" <h...@nospam.gte.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> la Nindo ryu?
>
> Jeff Velten
>
I have to concur hewey, you seem well versed in spindoctoring until you
get caught, lay low for a few days and then try a new angle quoting the
famously named dropped on a weekly basis.......
a decade is little less tedious than weekly. Now be so kind as to give
some straight forthcoming answers to the questions posed to you.
Kreth
wrote:
>> Subj: Re:Nindo Ryu
>> Date: 97-07-16 02:45:50 EDT
>> From: NINDO
>> Posted on: America Online
>>
8< snip
>> Carlos R. Febres
>> Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai
geez (can I call you geez? good.) geez, isn't it strange that the most
recent thing the nindoers can find from Febres is over 2 years old?
I'm wondering if he got a crueller lodged in his aorta and kicked off
and they're trying to cover it up...
Jeff Velten
J Merz
out here except mine where I EXPLICITLY ASK YOU QUESTIONS THAT NEED ANSWERS.
Answers you either haven't made up yet or simply don't have. Now you're trying
desperately to re-direct when the fact remains that you simply will not answer
any questions because you know it will prove you are all worthless liars and
frauds.
Jon F. Merz
Houston Haynes wrote:
> Announcement - an answer finally emerges!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> ...but not from poor little Lee...
>
> geezerex wrote in message <7od10r$gl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <1Flq3.333$fw3....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
> > "Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I will repeat myself - to help everyone keep from getting sidetracked
> >> - Does anyone have menkyo or menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu
> >> from Takamatsu besides Dr. Hatsumi?
>
> And the answer is YES!
>
> Ta Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!
>
> Who is Fukumoto, you ask? Well according to people in his line (Genbukan)
> Fukumoto sensei was Hatsumi's training partner...
>
> WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? ...............
>
> ................Hatsumi claims that he was Takamatsu's only student?
> Well let's check the record...
>
> [begin citation]
>
> Magazine B-Club, vol. 104, July, 1994.
> Ask Ninja About Ninja Things!!
>
> "I: I see. I thought that Takamatsu Sensei taught many people...
> H: He didn’t teach anybody, even if they visited him. He merely said:
> "Learn from Hatsumi," and he didn’t instruct anybody. After all, he gave
> me all he had. So if somebody says "I learned from Takamatsu," he is a
> fake, because he had only one pupil: me. Besides, I had never met anybody
> who was taught by Takamatsu Sensei while I learned from him for 15 years."
>
> [end citation]
>
> So, if Togakure ryu WAS INDEED taught before the ninja boom, why did he lie
> about being the only student?
>
> >>
> >> Does Dr. Hatsumi have menkyo or menkyo kaiden in Masaki ryu or Bukuden
> >ryu?
>
> Still waiting on that one...
>
> >>
> >> As Lee Drew claims that some of Bujinkan budo taijutsu comes from
> >> these arts, it would stand to reason that by his definition then some
> >> makimono must be held by Dr. Hatsumi in these disciplines.
> >>
> >> If Dr. Hatsumi does not hold these credentials, and teaches the
> >> techniques with minimal exposure to those arts, then Lee should
> >> have no trouble with the practices in Nindo Ryu.
> >>
> >> Right?
>
> I think since you guys have been in these groups longer (and since your MA
> pre-dates ours - you should go first with your history...
>
> ...come on - we're still waiting...
>
> By the way - you'll also have to give us history on these names as well
>
> Kimura
> Akimoto
> Sato
> Ueno
>
> I understand that they ALL received menkyo kaiden from Takamatsu.
>
> So if I was wrong - that makes _someone_else_ a liar.
Houston Haynes
Nicholas Steele wrote in message ...
>ask for clarification on one point: in the original post you presented, and
>copied above, Febres sensei states he does not have any direct connection
to
>Bujinkan, Togakure or Genbukan. Why then do you contradict the head of your
>organization by continually playing up the fact that Febres sensei was
>offered rank in Bujinkan, that he studied briefly with Tanemura, and is/was
>a member of BFI? Thank you for your time in helping me understand this
issue
>better.
For the last time, Febres has no connection because when he was offered the
opportunities to test for rank, he said no.
That's not a contradition, my child, they are two facts that go
hand-in-hand.
>
>Nicholas Steele
a mind like a "steele" trip, I mean trap...
Houston Haynes
geezerex
hewey, do you honestly believe, you shill bastard, that a magazine quote
means dick? There has not been a reputable martial arts magazine in the
nineties, let alone a ninpo related one, try MUCH MUCH harder, on to
more of the invented history of hewey the human ho ho haynes..
> So, if Togakure ryu WAS INDEED taught before the ninja boom, why did
he lie
> about being the only student?
big claim, REAL proof goes where?
> >>
> >> Does Dr. Hatsumi have menkyo or menkyo kaiden in Masaki ryu or
Bukuden
> >ryu?
>
> Still waiting on that one...
>
> >>
> >> As Lee Drew claims that some of Bujinkan budo taijutsu comes from
> >> these arts, it would stand to reason that by his definition then
some
> >> makimono must be held by Dr. Hatsumi in these disciplines.
> >>
> >> If Dr. Hatsumi does not hold these credentials, and teaches the
> >> techniques with minimal exposure to those arts, then Lee should
> >> have no trouble with the practices in Nindo Ryu.
> >>
> >> Right?
>
> I think since you guys have been in these groups longer (and since
your MA
> pre-dates ours - you should go first with your history...
>
> ...come on - we're still waiting...
diverting attention, you really think you've delivered any counterpunch
here? your art is a sham, with fraudulent origins, you have no
credibility to make any such claims, I will ask you again, put down the
ninjer magazine and answer the damn question, with proof you can
actually back up....
> By the way - you'll also have to give us history on these names as
well
>
> Kimura
> Akimoto
> Sato
> Ueno
>
> I understand that they ALL received menkyo kaiden from Takamatsu.
>
> So if I was wrong - that makes _someone_else_ a liar.
>
>
Shill some more, then answer the questions posed to you, and leave the
ninjer magazine quote of the month at home. You're a joke Hewey, a bad
one.
geezerex
geezerex
J Merz <zr...@macol.net> wrote:
> Houstie, I gotta hand it to you, you really know how to hang yourself
with no
> help from anyone else. I love this line:
>
techniques
> with minimal exposure to those arts, then Lee should have no trouble
with
>
> Because what it says is that the nindo ryu is teaching things which it
has had
> minimal exposure to & does not hold credentials to teach. It's
probably as
> blatant an admission to the fraud you perpetrate as we'll ever get out
of you
> losers.
>
> And by the way, I don't know for sure whether Hatsumi-sensei has
menkyo in the
> Bokuden and Masaki-ryu, but he certainly has waited to teach them for
a number
> of decades since he actually wanted to put in more than 2 years of
study.
> UNLIKE what fatso did with ninjutsu.
>
> And by the way, get busy on your response to my post. Can't wait to
see your
> answers.
>
> Jon F. Merz
>
>
translation: DANCE FOR ME!!!!!!
geezerex
you have called me geez, I will forgive you :), this has cover up
written all over it, at the center of it, the Hostess company, makers of
twinkeys, ready to give up hope of their number one's patron's survival?
doubtful.....
geezerex
"Houston Haynes" <h...@nospam.gte.net> wrote:
>
> Nicholas Steele wrote in message ...
> >I would also
> >ask for clarification on one point: in the original post you
presented, and
> >copied above, Febres sensei states he does not have any direct
connection
> to
> >Bujinkan, Togakure or Genbukan. Why then do you contradict the head
of your
> >organization by continually playing up the fact that Febres sensei
was
> >offered rank in Bujinkan, that he studied briefly with Tanemura, and
is/was
> >a member of BFI? Thank you for your time in helping me understand
this
> issue
> >better.
>
> For the last time, Febres has no connection because when he was
offered the
> opportunities to test for rank, he said no.
that offer has since been proven as a falsehood, it never happened,
according to Lee drew. I'll take his word over hewey's any >bleeping<
day of the week.
> That's not a contradition, my child, they are two facts that go
> hand-in-hand.
>
> >
> >Nicholas Steele
>
> a mind like a "steele" trip, I mean trap...
>
>
--
Kreth
wrote:
>Ooooooooh another veiled threat. Well I've been to the BAD on several
>occasions, and have been met with nothing but respectful and polite people
>there, including Shidoshi Malmstrom. My student, John Casey, even went there
>to check out one of there classes and found it to be most entertaining. I
>don't think I'd have any problem going there, but hte fees at eh door are a
>little bit too much just for a friendly visit.
Might I suggest that the polite treatment had a lot to do with the
fact that Bud Malmstrom probably wasn't aware of the way you've been
slinging mud at his teacher.
Jeff Velten
Xanathos
"that offer has since been proven as a falsehood, it never happened,
according to Lee drew. I'll take his word over hewey's any >bleeping<
day of the week."
I realize that I am biased in this discussion, but could you please point
out to me where "exactly" did Lee Drew prove t to be a falsehood. I keep pretty
good track of this newsgroup and AOL and I haven't read anything about this.
Thanks, please get back to me on this
Adam J. Souza
New Bedford Nindo Ryu
Bakeneko
<< I realize that I am biased in this discussion, but could you please point
out to me where "exactly" did Lee Drew prove t to be a falsehood. I keep pretty
good track of this newsgroup and AOL and I haven't read anything about this.
Thanks, please get back to me on this>>
Well, I remember seeing Lee comment on it before, but how about I do the honors
in this case.
I myself saw the web sight, and the first story was that in 1991 Febres was
offered eighth dan by an American. Other people outside of the Bujinkan also
say they saw it too. The story was changed to its current form of a test for
rank being offered with no specific level specified after it was pointed out
that no American could even offer the rank, and they refused to say who offered
it. The Nindo ryu now states that the web sight never said that the web sight
ever said that Febres was offered eighth dan. If anyone knows how to confirm
what a web sight said before it was changed I would like to know. But look
below and see what the web sight manager (Houston Haynes) of the official web
sight and appointed by Carlos Febres wrote when backed into a corner.
(begging of quote)
<<Subject: Re: Ninja Groups. . . .
From: Houston Haynes <kage_n...@my-deja.com>
Date: Fri, 16 July 1999 11:30 AM EDT
Message-id: <7mnj77$ieq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
<<snip>>
First of all, we need to settle the "offer for 8th dan" you children
have concoted.
No one EVER offered an outright 8th Dan to Shihan Dai Febres. No one in
Nindo Ryu EVER said that was the case. He was called by an instructor
in 1991 about the upcoming Tai Kai, and notified Febres that there was
going to be black belt testing for attendees, and the fee was going to
be $100 per dan for testing UP TO 8th dan - _UP_TO_8th_dan_ - it could
have been shodan, nindan or some other rank. Febres didn't go to the
Tai Kai, and threrefore was not able to accept the offer to test.
<<snip>>
Now, the p1.erson who originally called Febres with the test information
has now denied the call ever took place. There - you guys feel better>>
(End of quote)
Now, first of all, there is and never was any test for any rank by Hatsumi
outside of the fifth dan test. Hatsumi does not give tests for ranks outside of
that. By 1991 he was also not giving out anything below fifth dan to anyone at
Tai Kais. The ranks he gives out are not based on any test, so any mention of a
rank test for anyone else other than a fifth dan is not possible. I went to the
1991 Tai Kai, I remember no rank test going on other than the one for fifth
dan. Any survivor of that Tai Kai (terrible weather and there was almost NO
BEER to be found) can confirm the fact that there was no way someone could show
up without any experience and take any test by Hatsumi. Febres had no rank in
Bujinkan, so he would not have been allowed to take the fifth dan test and
certainly not eighth.
Secondly, Houston Haynes admits that the person they say made the call denies
the call ever took place. HE ADMITS THAT NOT ONLY IS THERE NO CONFIRMATION BUT
AN OUTRIGHT DENIAL!!! Despite this, the web page states that in 1991 Febres was
offered a chance to test for rank.
What makes anyone think that the Nindo ryu (as shown by the official story on
the official web sight and comments by the web manager) is interested in the
truth and dealing in good faith? What makes anyone think that they will ever
change the story? They will avoid the issue, change the subject and go on the
attack, but they will never, ever change the story. and I consider their story
of how Hatsumi supposably tried to buy off Febres (I can pull up some quotes
about that) with the rank offer, and their story that Higuchi was a member of
the Bujinkan but was the victim of a plot by Hatsumi to deny he ever was
qualified as libel of Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.
J Merz
Oh by the way, on the continuing saga of losers sending me threatening email, Riki
Gen has just sent this to me as well: (note that this is the 3rd email address
and name change since he began trying to improve his sense of self-worth)
>>From: "Jin M Kachi" <kachis...@mailcity.com>
Hello ninja man,
You are clearly very confident in your technique and I am glad that you wish to
test your skills against me. As stated we must both sign a liability document and
then the fun can begin. I propose now that I will use a combination of western
boxing and kodokan judo to educate you. This is combined with general unarmed
combat techniques that I picked up in Northern Ireland whilst serving in the
parachute regiment. If you send me the details of your club address I will be sure
to meet you within a month. My only condition is that I have a representative with
me. You may also have one. I look forward to recieving the details.
Goodbye for now
Rik Gen <<
Now I never said I wanted to waste my time "testing" my skills, since I don't do
that, but who am I to stand in the way of someone's inadequacies? Anyway, I sent
him the address and asked him how he'd become independently wealthy enough to
travel all around putting his insecurities on display. He's got a month, or so he
says. I guess you can kind of sign up for him to come around and "educate" you,
so be sure to email him your address to get in on the fun...
Jon F. Merz
br...@wralaw.com
"Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
In article <Xukq3.258$fw3....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
"Houston Haynes" <kage_n...@deja.com> wrote:
> So, for those of you that live in a glass bubble, [which]
> I hope is the
> minority of you, we are a call to reality, a fresh
> wind maybe. To others,
> who can and do live in reality,
I can't help but think that this thread is a little silly.
Simular to the grandmaster of nindo-ryu I studied aki-jutsu,
some ken-po and togakure/gyokko-rue(8-ryu) ninpo.
During the years when I was training heavily I came across a
master of chinese and japanese martial arts, who besides
authoring several books also trained with the chinese military.
He showed me in training sessions basic stances and moves
of the shao-lin priests and moves of japanese prostitutes(women)
that allow a weaker and smaller opponet to overcome a larger
and stronger one. The clincher is that after this training
I did not become a shoa-lin priest or a Geisha. -thank-god-
Are we ninja?
What I learned is that fighting form is (obvious) arbitrary
and mostly nmemonic, especially those forms pushed by
subjectively formless arts like akido, and that there are
actually an infinite number of repetative ways of moving
(figure eights, small-circles, 45 degree angles etc) that
can accomplich the same general technique.(this is something
I think that bujinkan ninpo helps teach; since one is
constricted to only eight ways of moving much free-er than
only one or two like most martial arts.)
>we are only another group of people in our
> quest, the same quest that you are........with a different map.
I looked at the nindo-ryu webpage. I downloaded (by default) all
of the AVI's but the main one. Generally the techniques of
nindo ryu are simular to the ones my old ninpo and akijutsu
instructors pulled out of their asses -which seems to be what
most akijutsu and ninpo training is. The avi called jutai6.avi
is a version of ganseki nagi, also jutai5.avi is in fact Gyaku
zeoi of the Kukishin-ryu of ninpo. I'm sure that some nut who
has +all+ the ninpo training manuels could find the rest of
nindo's techniques, since it seems that each ninpo school could
have hundreds of formalized techniques by themselves, not to
mention all of the techniques of all 8 schools.
> I hope you will appreciate a little diversity but you may find that
what we
> do is not that different from what you do.
My purely subjective opinion is that nindo-ryu is singularly less
diverse than the 8-schools of the bujinkan ninpo-school(not to
mention the ninth shin-ken-gata techniques).
This can be an advantage or dissadvantage -which ever you want
to believe-(which you will). The real positive element IMHO
of bujinkan ninpo is that Hatsumi is a Chiropracter, and thus
there is some good advice carried through the school about
keeping the back and body in allignment~, The downsides are
that it appears that american Bujinkans are heavily politicised,
there is some real vinegar there which I don't understand,
And ninja training in general tends to attract nuts-like myself
-and the techniques in ninpo are as Dangerous as hopkido- And
sakki' (developing and sensing killin intent) training can in my
subjective experience aggrivate this if not create spiritual
problems all by itself.
> Again my apologies for the problem with the URL. I'll have the correct
> addrees post here asap.
> Carlos R. Febres
> Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai
> [end citations]
> You tell me what the problem is...
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
geezerex
you acn call it politicized if you wish, but the spoksewhore of nindo
hewey himself has been caught in more than one lie. We call it policing,
as in we take a dim view of those who try to make cash off of the name
of something they are not.
--
The Many Headed Hydra of Usenet, the Vigilante Doppleganger
Mr Happy Himself, come visit at:
Xanathos
<< I realize that I am biased in this discussion, but could you please point
out to me where "exactly" did Lee Drew prove t to be a falsehood. I keep pretty
good track of this newsgroup and AOL and I haven't read anything about this.
Thanks, please get back to me on this>>
bakaneko wrote:
<<Well, I remember seeing Lee comment on it before, but how about I do the
honors
in this case.>>
It's amazing about how often you whine that Nindo Ryu members allegedly
change the subject and dodge issues ans then do so yourself quite often.
You stated that Lee had proven something. I simply asked you where.
You did not produce.
geezerex
shill on mcduff, I'll shit out a hoho when you guys give a straight
answer to anything.....
Nicholas Steele
first part of the question you conveniently snipped out - who taught Febres
the ninjutsu that he used as the basis of his interpretation? I tried to be
civil and not get personal; just ask a question. So please Houston
"Head-up-his-ass" Haynes (I can be childish too), what's the answer?
Nicholas
Houston Haynes <h...@nospam.gte.net> wrote in message
news:sHpq3.778$fw3....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>
> Nicholas Steele wrote in message ...
> >I would also
> >ask for clarification on one point: in the original post you presented,
and
> >copied above, Febres sensei states he does not have any direct connection
> to
> >Bujinkan, Togakure or Genbukan. Why then do you contradict the head of
your
> >organization by continually playing up the fact that Febres sensei was
> >offered rank in Bujinkan, that he studied briefly with Tanemura, and
is/was
> >a member of BFI? Thank you for your time in helping me understand this
> issue
> >better.
>
> For the last time, Febres has no connection because when he was offered
the
> opportunities to test for rank, he said no.
>
Nicholas Steele
the 70's. Give your head a shake.As for which other students of Takamatsu
sensei received menkyo in Togakure ryu you should ask John Lindsey (I hope I
spelled it right). I've also noticed you sometimes post to the Ninpo-L group
so if you check the archives you can find the names you are looking for.
Nicholas
Houston Haynes <h...@nospam.gte.net> wrote in message
news:1Flq3.333$fw3....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>
> Nicholas Steele wrote in message ...
Nicholas Steele
his life. It's also a fact that Hatsumi trained with other people under
Takamatsu , unless the other bodies in the photos are faked. The photos of
Hatsumi training with others under Takamatsu's guidance are not hard to come
by. Of course the only person I've ever seen identified was Akimoto sensei.
In "Essence of Ninjutsu" Hatsumi relates how other students of Takamatsu
complained about Hatsumi's position under Takamatsu sensei. The question to
ask is "What did they learn from Takamatsu sensei?" If you want to know
exactly what Hatsumi meant by his remarks (if they are quoted/translated
accurately) ask him. Perhaps Hatsumi was the last person Takamatsu taught
"pure" Togakure ryu to. The only person who knows for sure is dead.
Just out of curiosity, when other people start to claim that they
trained in ninjutsu with Carlos Febres under his instructor (and therefore
are the true inheritors) what would be the name of the instructor?
Nicholas Steele
Houston Haynes <h...@nospam.gte.net> wrote in message
news:3Tpq3.789$fw3....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
> >
> And the answer is YES!
>
> Ta Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!
>
> Who is Fukumoto, you ask? Well according to people in his line (Genbukan)
> Fukumoto sensei was Hatsumi's training partner...
>
> WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? ...............
>
> ................Hatsumi claims that he was Takamatsu's only
student?
> Well let's check the record...
>
> [begin citation]
>
> Magazine B-Club, vol. 104, July, 1994.
> Ask Ninja About Ninja Things!!
>
> "I: I see. I thought that Takamatsu Sensei taught many people...
> H: He didn't teach anybody, even if they visited him. He merely said:
> "Learn from Hatsumi," and he didn't instruct anybody. After all, he gave
> me all he had. So if somebody says "I learned from Takamatsu," he is a
> fake, because he had only one pupil: me. Besides, I had never met anybody
> who was taught by Takamatsu Sensei while I learned from him for 15 years."
>
> [end citation]
>
Lee Drew
>In a previous post, I asked LEESENSEI some direct questions about Hatsumi's
>connection to the Bukuden and Masaki ryu. If he was bold enought to
>reference it, he should be able to back it up.
>
Well before I go onto read the rest of this nonsense, let me address this point
right now. First that thread that you re refferring to was on another
newsgroup, and second, I did in fact attempt a reponse to the post.
unfortunately, for some reason the post never appered on the newsgroup. I don't
know why, but it might have been a problem with my server or something, One of
the moderators of that newsgroup has tried to help me figure out what happpened
to the post, but so far we have not had any luck resuing it. I have a copy of
the post on email from the moderator, and will be glad to send it to you.
But in any case, my response was something to the effect of I don't know
exactly what Hatsumi soke's connection to the Bokuden Ryu or the Masaki Ryu.
As I mentoned earlier, Hatsumi Soke has trained with other Budu masters in
addition to his training with Takamatsu Soke. Hatsumi does not claim to be the
Soke of the Bokuden ryu, or the Masaki Ryu, and I do not know what type of rank
he may or may not have in either of these arts. I don't know where he learned
the Techniques from the Bokuden Ryu at all, but perhaps it was through Ueno
Sensei who was one of his instructors before Takamatsu Soke. Again, That is
just a guess on my part and I do not know if that is the case or not. As for
Masaki Ryu, that would be through his connection with The Soke of that ryu
which is Yumio Nawa. Again, Hatsumi Soke makes no claims as to being Soke of
this ryu, and I have no idea about any rank or menkyo in this school at all.
More lilkley, the Masaki ryu techniques that have been adopted into the
Bujinkan simply stem from the two of the being friends and sharing techniques
etc. You can see a Young Hatsumi Sensei pictured in Charles Guranzki's book
Spike and Chain which features techniques of the Masaki Ryu. Guranski's
teacher was Yumio Nawa Sensei.
Now all I said was that there are some techniques in the Bujinkan that are from
other ryu outside of the Takamatsuden, or influenced by the same. Since you
live in Atlanta, why don't you drive down to Birmingham some time, and I will
be glad to show you techniques from both of these ryu that are taught in the
Bujinkan dojo. Is that backing up the statements enough for you. Yopu can also
buy the Daisho Sabaki video tape from Quest where Hatsumi Soke demonstrates
techniques from the Bokuden ryu. That tape is available through Richard Van
Donk's company, or you can order it directly from Quest in Japan.
Lee Drew
Birmingham Bujinkan Dojo
Lee Drew
>Answer me this - if Hatsumi was not pivotal in fostering the commercial
>ninja boom in Japan, and therefore the US, then why are portions of his
>personal collection of artifacts in the museum at Iga-Ueno?
>
Umm Houston, Who ever said that Hatsumi Soke was not instrumental in starting
the Ninja Boom in Japan?
I believe that I have said many times that we can trace all of the interest in
Ninjutsu back to Hatsumi Sensei. He was the first one to really begin to make
the art public. In the late fifties and early sixties, he was already well
known as an authority and practioner of Ninjutsu. In 1061 he was even asked to
present a discourse on Ninjutsu before the Crown Prince. The very first article
about Ninjutsu that was presented in the west featured Hatsumi Soke. Before
that time, no one knew what Ninjutsu was in the west.
>Are you still trying to say that he had NO MOTIVE in dropping his previous
>budo practice, and suddenly beginning with promotion of ninjutsu (through
>lumping everything into Togakure ryu) at the advent of the museum at
>Iga-Ueno?
Who said that he dropped his previous Budo practice? The last I checked, most
people in the Bujinkan are very clear that the Bujinkan is based on the NINE
Budo traditions that were taught to Hatsumi Sensei by the late Takamatsu Soke.
Of these Nine traditions, only three are considered Ninjutsu ryu, and of those
three only Togakure ryu has really been taught to any signifant degree by
Hatsumi Soke. The major focus of the Bujinkan has always been more focused on
the Taijutsu and weapons skills of the various arts such as Gyokko ryu
Koshijutsu and Kukishinden ryu Happo Biken jutsu.
>Give me a break.
What would you like to have broken! :0
>History is a double-edge sword, is it not?
I am not sure what you mean here. We are certainly proud of our history! There
is certainly not anything that we are trying to hide. Hatsumi soke, has a long
and notable history of studying and teaching the Kobudo arts. His teacher
before him was an amazing instructor and Budoka, and Hatsumi Soke considered
him to be a living Bujin. Takamatsu himself of course had a long history of
real Budo training, as well as many actual combat encounters. And Takamatsu
Sokes teachers were certainly notable martial artists, and so were their
teachers and so on.
No, I don't think that History is a problem at all. For a traditional art,
history is a very important aspect. We are certainly proud and happy to train
in an art based on the experiences of the true warriors throughout their long
history.
Lee Drew
>>fact is Takamatsu sensei taught it all under the umbrella of Togakure ryu
>>and Hatsumi sensei continued.
>
>And where does this "fact" come from? I only ask because I've read that one
>of
>the original Bujinkan Shihan said that Hatsumi decided on the Togakure tag in
>the mid 1960s.
>
>lots of love,
>the wobbly one
I would have to question this comment as well. The Togakure ryu was used as an
umbrella term for all of the training in the Bujinkan Dojo by Hatsumi Sensei.
It certainly made it easier to refer to the training by Togakure ryu than
trying to explain that the system is actually made up of nine Koryu schools
plus.
Of course now the easy and correct way to say it is to simply refer to the
training as "Bujinkan dojo Budo Taijutsu". Which sure beats trying to say that
"I study Togakureyu ninjutsu, Gyokoryu koshijutsu Kukishindenryu happo hiken
jutsu Shindenfudoryu dakentaijutsu Kumogakureryu ninjutsu Kotohryu koppojutsu
Takagiyoshinryu jutaijutsu, Gyokushinryu ninjutsu etc.
Lee Drew
again.
>
>I will repeat myself - to help everyone keep from getting sidetracked - Does
>anyone have menkyo or menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu from Takamatsu besides
>Dr. Hatsumi?
>
In a word, YES. There were two people that recieved Menkyo Kaiden in Togakure
Ryu from Takamatsu. John Lindsey could tell you more about this than I could.
Hatsumi was named as Soke of the Togakure ryu as well as the other schools in
the Bujinkan by Takamatsu. Hatsumi was not the only person however that
trained with Takamatsu, and he was not the only person to be trained in
Togakure ryu and the other arts by Takamatsu Soke. Does that answer your
question plainly enough?
>Does Dr. Hatsumi have menkyo or menkyo kaiden in Masaki ryu or Bukuden ryu?
>
Not that I am aware of, but it is possible.
>As Lee Drew claims that some of Bujinkan budo taijutsu comes from these
>arts, it would stand to reason that by his definition then some makimono
>must be held by Dr. Hatsumi in these disciplines.
Actally I said that some of the weapons techniques taught in the Bujikan are
from these two ryu. But close enough. But no, to answer your question, no
such requirement exists for teaching techniques like these within the
Bujinkan. Now if Hatsumi Sensei was claiming to be a licensed teacher or the
Soke of these ryu, then of course he would be expected to be able to present
his certification and licenses juat as he is able to so so for the schools that
he recieved from Takamatsu soke.
>
>If Dr. Hatsumi does not hold these credentials, and teaches the techniques
>with minimal exposure to those arts, then Lee should have no trouble with
>the practices in Nindo Ryu.
>
>Right?
>
Sorry, don't see any connection. Hatsumi sensei is the Soke of several Koryu
traditions including those containing Ninjutsu. He is a legitimate teacher of
these arts that have been handed down by generations.
How does that compare with the Nindo Ryu? If you actualy learned some ninjutsu
techniques from a legitimate ryu and taught them as part of what you are doing,
then I would not really care about that. I believe that I have said many times
that as long as the Nindo ryu is honest about what they are doing, then I would
not have a problem with them. It is only when I see the Nindo ryu
misrepresenting themnselves as a legitimate Ninjutsu tradition that I speak
out.
Lee Drew
>>Hatsumi-sensei also acted as technical advisor for "You
>>Only Live Twice" the James Bond film of '63
>
>Jon,
>I had understood that Hatsumi sensei was asked to do this movie, but
>then walked out when the production crew were late for a meeting with
>him. This is from one of Sensei's books, I can dig it up if you want.
>Also, a quick check on us.imdb.com doesn't list any technical advisor
>in the crew listing.
>
>Jeff Velten
>
>
Yes this is true, Hatsumi Soke wlked away from the project for the reasons that
you stated. This was after he had done a demonstration for the producers of
that film and explained various weapons and nija artifacts etc. There is a
great picture from this demonstration in one of the issues of the Sanmyaku
Bujinkan Densho.
Incidently, the 007 film also stole a few scenes from the Shinobi no mone film.
Lee Drew
>>
>>lots of love,
>>the wobbly one
>
>
>This has changed, for one.
>
>http://homestead.deja.com/user.kage_no_yama/togakuretech3.html
>
>This has changed for two
>
>http://homestead.deja.com/user.kage_no_yama/togakuretech2.html
>
>This has changed for three.
>
>http://homestead.deja.com/user.kage_no_yama/togakuretech1.html
>
>Haven't you been paying attention?
>
>
Well Houston, I tried to go to these spots, but couldn't get the picture to
come up. One page said that it was supposed to be a picture from the book
Ninjutsu History and Tradition. The picture on that page is a demonstration of
the sodetsu hand cannon. I am not sure what you are saying has changed. This
is a historical weapon, and as such is still used in the same manner that it
was in it's time. I have seen several Koryu demonstrations that have
demonstrated this weapon and other antique weapons like it. So what exactly
are you trying to say here? If you are implying that we don't spend a lot of
time training with antique firearms, then you are correct. most of us in the
Bujinkan that train with firearms and the like are far more partial to modern
firearms. The Sodetsu was a part of the history of the traditions in the
Bujinkan, just like Yari and Tachi and Yumi.
Lee Drew
>according to Lee drew. I'll take his word over hewey's any >bleeping<
>day of the week."
>
>out to me where "exactly" did Lee Drew prove t to be a falsehood. I keep
>pretty
>good track of this newsgroup and AOL and I haven't read anything about this.
>
>Thanks, please get back to me on this
>
>
>New Bedford Nindo Ryu
Well, let's see was it a year ago, or maybe two years? I don't remeber how
long it has been now, but it was after Houston came out and began his endless
cycle of attacks against the Bujinkan. I tried to ask Houston for details to
support his allegations, but of course he never gave any kind of direct
reponse. (just like now, see he really is consistent)
So I eventually got tired of the Bs and the runaround and I went to Carlos
Febres directly to get his side of the story and the name of the person that
supposedly offered Febres the rank of eighth dan in the Bujinkan. I succeeded
in talking to Febres, and his story was conflicting and very different from the
way that Houston was spinning things on the internet. By the way, Mr. Febres
was courteous and polite, and if were not for the actions of people like
Houston, it is very likely that there would not be such a rift between the
nindo ryu and more traditional arts such as the Bujinkan. But that is besides
the point.
I then went directly to the person that Febres said offered him the rank. that
person flat out said that this never happened. He said that Febres had
contacted him about taking some classes at his dojo but never showed up. The
instructor in question then flat out said that if arlos Febres or anybody else
wanted rank in the Bujinkan, then they would have to do what he did and work
hard from white belt to earn it.
To my mind, there is no truth at all to this story about Mr. Febres being
offered rank in the Bujinkan, but out of fairness to Mr. Febres, I said at the
time that maybe this was some sort of miscomunication due to Mr. Febres rather
poor language skills at the time. The fact remains that no one in the Bujinkan
can offer such rank with the exception of Hatsumi Soke. The instructor in
question certainly did not and could not offer Febres the rank of 8th dan as
Houston had stated on the internet.
Lee Drew
>> Announcement - an answer finally emerges!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> ...but not from poor little Lee...
>>
Actually, you are a little late Houston, I already posted an answer to your
question some time ago. I only saw this thread a few hour ago. If you are
expecting me to anser questions like this, you might want to check to see if I
am actually checking the newsgroup. I haven't been paying attention to this
newsgroup in some time.
But in any case, I hope that you enjoy the answers that I have already given to
your questions. By all means feel free to ask more, and you might even try to
anser a few sometimes.
You know the funny thing is that even though I think you are a complete and
utter troll, I still try to answer every question that you ask honestly and
completely to the best of my knowledge. You ought to try it sommetimes it
really is a better way to communicate.
John Lindsey
>Well Houston, I tried to go to these spots, but couldn't get the picture to
>come up. One page said that it was supposed to be a picture from the book
>Ninjutsu History and Tradition. The picture on that page is a demonstration of
>the sodetsu hand cannon. I am not sure what you are saying has changed. This
>is a historical weapon, and as such is still used in the same manner that it
>was in it's time.
From what I was told, the hand cannon and all the other cannons are
actually part of Takagi Yoshin ryu. I missed part of this thread and
thus am not sure what the argument is...
John Lindsey
Administrator
www.e-budo.com
"The internet's source for Japanese martial arts and culture"