Chung Moo Doe. Good or Bad?
AugustAsh
styles taught as one. However I have come across a lot of controversial
information suggesting the organization is fraudulent or even a cult.
Is this just a bunch of paranoid slander, or are these legitimate
accusations? Please reply if you know anything about this.
Pavlov
wrote:
Here it goes again!
CMD is a cult. Plain and simple. I and others here have first hand
experience.
Stay far away...never go back. Their martial arts are a fake front
for a pyramid scheme, and you are expected to worship John Kim, the
Master, who is in jail.
nick...@my-deja.com
Hi there! Building on what Pavlov said, Chung Moo Doe (aka Chung Moo
Quan, Oom Yung Doe) was actually not a martial art, but martial arts
classes used as a front to suck people into what essentially was a
personality cult revolving around the worship of John C. Kim, Chung
Moo's supposed founder and ultimate master. Kim's also gone by the
title "Chong Su Nim 'Iron' Kim". He's claimed he's the undefeated
champion of all Asia--a title which doesn't exist.
I know this from personal experience; in the 1980s, for six years, I
was involved in the organization. I can personally attest to the truth
of many of the statements made about this organization. As to whether
the group still functions as a cult, I couldn't say for sure, though
at the place I used to train at, they still have pictures all over of
John C. Kim, which doesn't make me feel good.
Also--John C. Kim is a convicted criminal, as are many of the top
people in the Chung Moo organization. A major part of the organization
was the swindling of large amounts of cash from students. Then,
Kim and his lieutenants tried to conceal this cash from the IRS. They
succeeded for a while, but the IRS eventually got wise. In April 1995,
John C. Kim plus many other top Chung Moo people were indicted under
Title 18 U.S. Code, sec. 371--"conspiracy to defraud the United States
of America". In late August/early Sept. 1996, several of those
indicted plead guilty to that charge. On Dec. 9, 1996, Kim plus a few
others were convicted by a jury of that same charge. To my knowledge,
all received the maximum five-year prison sentence and all are still
doing their time.
Again, is the organization still a cult? I'm not sure. However, great
caution is absolutely warranted, given Chung Moo's very checkered past.
I would suggest you check out the following resources for more info:
Check "rec.martial-arts" between, say, Jan. 1995 and Dec. 1996, and
you'll come across more posts than you'd know what to do with.
"Chung Moo Quan: The Cult & The Con." Reported by Pam Zekman. WBBM,
CBS television, Chicago. 1989.
Vogel, Jennifer. "Be True to Your School: The Dark Side of the Moo."
City Pages (Minn/St. Paul), Apr. 1, 1992.
Kahn, Ric. "Chung Moonies? Critics Call Martial Arts Club a Cult of
Violence and Greed." Boston Phoenix, Oct. 25, 1991.
Kim's conviction was reported in the Dec. 10, 1996 edition of the
Chicago Tribune.
Also, KHOU-TV in Houston, TX did a series of reports on Chung Moo,
around 1991-1992 I believe. Reporter Dave Fehling covered the story.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Pavlov
I wish the Pittsburgh media would do some investigation of CMD
there.....they grew like a wart.
AugustAsh
past, is the style or compilation of styles worth learning? I have called
several of the local classrooms and have found that all of the owners and
instructors are very honest about the organizations past. I was expecting
them to try and cover it up, but they were surprisingly straight forward
about the matter. I live in MN and found that all local companies are
individually owned and operated and have no ties to the Chung Moo Doe
organization. They simply teach the 8 styles as one. They all have changed
their names and at most have a few pictures of John C. Kim on the wall.
Every group, organization, or company has some sort of shady history.
I guess what I am wondering now is... if these guys have separated
themselves from the scandalous ways of the organizations past is it worth
taking for the style itself? Were you happy with how your MA skill
developed during those 6 years with CMD? I guess I am attracted to the
variety that is offered in 8 styles taught as one, but I also dont know
enough to know if that is a positive thing. If I do decide to steer away
from CMD, what would you recommend instead. Any more feedback is
appreciated.
Pavlov
wrote:
>all of the owners and instructors are very honest about the organizations past. I was expecting
>them to try and cover it up, but they were surprisingly straight forward
>about the matter.
CMD is about marketing and deception. They don't really have much
choice regarding their past, since it's so well publicized. So they
play the angle of "Oh, that was before...we're not like that anymore."
The price will tell you. When I was in, it was over $2000 per
"trimester." That's 8 months. The instructor had a credit card
machine mounted to the wall by his desk. No joke! They would push
you to make a $200-$300 down payment, then divide the rest over the
remaining 7 months. Compare this ridiculous amount of money to other
MA schools. I was making $50k at the time in a professional career,
and when I balked at the price increase, the instructor urged me to
get a second job!
But wait, there's more! You are "urged" to take every stinking
"National Instructor" seminar that comes by. They are about every 3
months, and cost $250 and up. They consist of jamming 200 students in
a dojo, packed so tightly that you can't throw a punch without hitting
someone. And the National instructors (i.e. regional high-priests) go
around hitting people and showing off moves for an hour. And you
don't have much choice about whether or not you want to take it.
But wait...they're not making enough money yet. They instituted a
"CMD ID Card." They take your picture, put it on a cheesy laminated
card, and you have to pay $25 per year to "be a member."
Are you starting to get the picture? And believe me. You won't find
ANYTHING out about a school until after you sign a contract.
As for the MA...it's a joke. For instance, you may have a weapons
class every month or so. How much do you learn practicing something
once a month?
There is no sparring, other than "one-step-sparring," where your
opponent throws an unrealistic stiff-armed front punch, and you
release a choreographed set of moves. No practical application
whatsoever.
Every once in a while, the instructors come in with a bad mood, and
hit you in the balls, kick you into a wall, whatever.
And after about a year they start urging you to enroll in Instructor's
Training. The goal is to make you an instructor so you can open your
own school, and start generating business. It is a classic pyramid
arrangement. it has nothing to do with MA.
Stay away. Print this out and post it to your mirror. :-)
I don't know what city you are in, but print out the sources Nick
posted and take them to your local newspaper. Explain to them that
there is a poisonous cult in your town and ask that they investigate.
CMD is afraid of the light. They will close up shop and go somewhere
else if they are exposed.
r_pu...@hotmail.com
AugustAsh <augu...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Thanks for the info. I am wondering though....despite their checkered
> past, is the style or compilation of styles worth learning? I have called
> instructors are very honest about the organizations past. I was expecting
> them to try and cover it up, but they were surprisingly straight forward
> about the matter.
That is very different from my experience. Like you, I found a CMD
school, went for the first of my 3 trial lessons, and then posted here
asking for peoples' impressions of the "art." I got the same response
you're getting, went and read the articles, and decided it wasn't for
me. I called the instructor and told him I wouldn't be coming in for my
other 2 lessons. When he asked why, I told him straight about what I'd
read and that it just made me too leery to get any good training from
the school. He immediately got tremendously defensive and started
mocking me for "not being smart enough to judge things from my own
experience" and that ANY organization will have bad things in its past.
I told him his was the only one I'd found that would make me bow to a
picture of a guy in jail for massive fraud, and that as far as judging
things based on my own experience went, if I gave him a few hundred
bucks to find out if it's a cult, then I would pretty much have joined
the cult, so thanks but no thanks.
>I live in MN and found that all local companies are
> individually owned and operated and have no ties to the Chung Moo Doe
> organization. They simply teach the 8 styles as one. They all have changed
> their names and at most have a few pictures of John C. Kim on the wall.
He's in jail for fraud, but his picture is in a place of prominence. To
me, that was a bad sign.
> Every group, organization, or company has some sort of shady history.
Verbatim what the CMD instructor told me. Verbatim. And also not true.
--
--The King of Comedy
--Rupert Pupkin
nick...@my-deja.com
summation on your training at Chung Moo--if training is the word.
To Rupert Pupkin: Interesting post. May I ask when and where this took
place?
To August Ash: The martial arts training at Chung Moo, in my opinion,
ranged from mediocre to terrible. Don't forget, Chung Moo wasn't about
teaching martial arts, but about sucking people into a personality cult
to worship John C. Kim--essentially, by giving over large amounts of
money and your entire life to "Master". They weren't out to really
teach martial arts. If you learned something, OK, but it was more
important for you to dedicate yourself--and your money--to Kim. Please
reread Pavlov's and Rupert's posts; coming from an ex-member, I think
they're both very good and really tell you all you need to know about
the orgnanization.
Please go through the posts in "rec.martial-arts" from January 1995 to
December 1996 as I suggested, and you'll see many references to Chung
Moo and how it stacks up as a martial art. Aside from Chung Moo
testimonials from current members, which all sound rehearsed and
designed to put a positive spin on the organization (and which, if you
read them carefully, really don't say anything of substance about the
training), the posts on Chung Moo from "real" martial artists have
opinions ranging from, it might be OK in some ways sometimes, to, it's
a worthless piece of junk which actually may harm you. Of all the
people who a.) had experience in martial arts and b.) looked objectively
at Chung Moo, I don't recall a single post that said Chung Moo was a
good style.
For martial arts you want to take, my best advice would be to ask
around. Take a few lessons at different styles, maybe read up on a
few different martial arts (eg., tae kwon do, kung fu, etc.) and
decide what's best for you.
--Nick
Pavlov
>
> He immediately got tremendously defensive and started
>mocking me for "not being smart enough to judge things from my own
>experience" and that ANY organization will have bad things in its past.
>
That is exactly the speech I got when I first asked the head
instructor about the rumors I'd heard about the Chicago school (where
he came from after they got shut down).
Actually, he got up, closed the door to his office, and said...and I
quote "Normally I would hit someone just for asking these questions."
You better believe I was shaking in my gi. This guy was a 4th degree.
Even though CMD's martial arts are a joke, this guy was a serious
badass. I was scared.
Then he pulled out an entire FILE of printed material that CMD had
created for just such an occasion. It went on and on trying to
discredit the reporters who had exposed CMD as a cult.
This stuff is like a movie. Very scary, very serious.
It most definitely is organized crime.
You're lucky you spoke to him on the phone and not in person.
They are a sick bunch, and they're not above kicking the crap out of
anyone who goes against the Master.
Also, I personally knew one of the Philadelphia instructors.
Biggest asshole I ever met in my life. A total prick in every
respect.
What a smile I had on my face the day I read in the newspaper that he
was one of the guys indicted for tax fraud. Woo-Hoo!
And it was funny how they all started rolling over on each other to
avoid jail time. I read some of the court transcripts that said big,
tough National Instructor Frank was sobbing like a little girl.
They should put THAT picture in their dojo. :-)
One other thing: I know for a *FACT* that CMD students and
instructors are lurking on this group. Not ONCE have I seen any of
them offer some defense. They are cowards, and they know the
accusations are all true.
nick...@my-deja.com
few points of my own....
I'll go out on a limb, and surmise that you're talking about someone
whose initials are M.M.? Though I'm in Mass., not PA, and never
personally met this person, his reputation, shall we say, certainly
goes before him. I've read posts about this guy, and people who
"trained" under him have personally emailed me (and given me his full
name), and they too reiterate that he was indeed a huge pr**k.
Chung Moo seemed to have had a few of these guys. Actually, now that I
look back, many instructors were decent people, they were just caught
up in the corruption of the Chung Moo system like the students were.
There were those, however, who were total bastards, and I believed that
these instructors would've been bastards regardless of the environment
in which you encountered them.
The fact that Pavlov had concerns about being assaulted for asking about
the organization's past is very believable. This was NOT all in
Pavlov's head. I personally witnessed, and experienced, instructors
threatening people, even hitting people, for acting in ways that didn't
jibe with how they expected students to act. As a former Chung Moo
instructor stated in the "Chung Moo Quan: The Cult & The Con" TV
expose back in 1989 (the instructor declined to be identified, given his
fears about the organization), the instructors would physically hurt
students if they didn't do what the instructor or organization wanted.
At the school I used to train at in Arlington, Mass., student Will
Smith-Vaniz sued instructor Jeff Arbeit some years back. Arbeit (who
I knew and 'trained' under during my time with Chung Moo) apparently
didn't like the fact that one day, Smith-Vaniz asked for a copy of
his Chung Moo contract, which of course he should've had to begin with.
(I must add here that I'm reporting allegations--to my knowledge, the
suit was settled out of court. To my knowledge, Arbeit wasn't found
legally culpable.) Then, Smith-Vaniz alleges, Arbeit grabbed him
around the throat, causing him great pain and choking off his air, and
asked Smith-Vaniz if he'd like to die right then. I recall Russell
Johnson posting a copy of the lawsuit filing on the Net; I'm sure a
search through deja.com will turn it up. Also, the incident was
briefly recounted in the "Chung Moo Quan: The Cult & The Con" TV
expose.
To August Ash: That's another reason I'd caution you about Chung Moo.
Depending on how the organization now functions, it actually may not
be physically safe for you to try out a lesson, even once.
> And it was funny how they all started rolling over on each other to
> avoid jail time. I read some of the court transcripts that said big,
> tough National Instructor Frank was sobbing like a little girl.
I heard about this guy. That is interesting!
> They should put THAT picture in their dojo. :-)
It's be a little tougher to get people to bow to that--or how about
John C. Kim doing a flying jump kick in his prison jumpsuit?
> One other thing: I know for a *FACT* that CMD students and
> instructors are lurking on this group. Not ONCE have I seen any of
> them offer some defense. They are cowards, and they know the
> accusations are all true.
Probably quite true. In the "heyday" of Chung Moo posting, whenever
people would post things critical of Chung Moo, the instructors or
whoever would post replies attacking the person, etc., but never
really refute the arguments. Take Julian Frost's constant posts.
Julian posted Lord knows how many times asking where, when, with whom
John C. Kim studied aikido and hapkido and what rank Kim achieved, for
the purposes of researching why Chung Moo claims to teach aikido and
hapkido and how good Kim really was at those arts. To the best of my
knowledge, Julian *never* received a response, either on the posts or
through private email.
Just a few more things to consider...
Pavlov
>
>I'll go out on a limb, and surmise that you're talking about someone
>whose initials are M.M.?
HAHA! YES! You *do* know who I'm talking about!
He fled Philly at the beginning of the sh**storm, and came to our
school. We hated him immediately. He singled out one of the
overweight guys and made him do "fat boy squats" (that's what he
called them) in the corner.
>Chung Moo seemed to have had a few of these guys. Actually, now that I
>look back, many instructors were decent people, they were just caught
>up in the corruption of the Chung Moo system like the students were.
Yes. J.C. was such a great guy, and honestly believed he was helping
people through CMD. I think about him often, and wonder if he ever
got out, since he was close with his family back in another state. I
know he hated my guts when I left and started "spreading the truth."
T.D, on the other hand, was a sadistic bastard. He took so much
pleasure in hitting and kicking students. And I don't mean sparring:
we weren't allowed to block. He would call you out of line, you would
stand there with your arms at your sides, and he would wail on you.
Wow....I learned alot there. :-)
When I left, he had made 4th degree. Even if his style was bogus, he
was still one strong, fast, flexible, mean mofo.
> To the best of my
>knowledge, Julian *never* received a response, either on the posts or
>through private email.
>
Whenever I asked about the CMD history, I was told we would learn
about it at a later date, and that was that. Here's the history: Kim
comes to America. Kim sees gullible Americans who want to be Bruce
Lee. Kim learns about pyramid scheme. Kim creates a watered down
style of MA, crowns himself Champion of all Asia, and declares that
CMD is far to dangerous to ever use in tournaments (thereby answering
the question "Why don't you come take us on in a tournament?").
Kim makes lots of money. Kim decides not to pay taxes. Kim goes to
jail.
So, anyway....I do not have a personal vendetta against the
individuals of CMD. I'm over it. I was young, stupid, and got duped.
However, as long as the cult continues to spread like a disease, I
will continue to share my first hand experience to deter people from
joining.
I want to see these places shut down, and I want to see the
instructors have to go out and get jobs and start their lives over
from scratch.
nick...@my-deja.com
> >I'll go out on a limb, and surmise that you're talking about someone
> >whose initials are M.M.?
>
> HAHA! YES! You *do* know who I'm talking about!
> He fled Philly at the beginning of the sh**storm, and came to our
> school. We hated him immediately. He singled out one of the
> overweight guys and made him do "fat boy squats" (that's what he
> called them) in the corner.
Sounds like a charming guy. I knew a few guys like that where I
studied.
>
> Yes. J.C. was such a great guy, and honestly believed he was helping
> people through CMD. I think about him often, and wonder if he ever
> got out, since he was close with his family back in another state. I
> know he hated my guts when I left and started "spreading the truth."
Don't know J.C., but I did know decent people like him.
> T.D, on the other hand, was a sadistic bastard. He took so much
> pleasure in hitting and kicking students. And I don't mean sparring:
> we weren't allowed to block. He would call you out of line, you would
> stand there with your arms at your sides, and he would wail on you.
> Wow....I learned alot there. :-)
>
> When I left, he had made 4th degree. Even if his style was bogus, he
> was still one strong, fast, flexible, mean mofo.
In my experience, the people in Chung Moo who were good got that way
from things they did outside of and before they got to Chung Moo, or
were natural athletes. I ran into people like that, too--and usually,
they were the biggest jerks, because a.) people decent at the martial
arts and who had good personalities usually couldn't abide the
organization, and b.) as Chung Moo didn't really develop martial arts
abilities, the bullies there could continue to bully the others with
impunity, because they knew that the students wouldn't be able to
develop to the point where they'd give them a problem.
Don't know T.D., either, by the way.
> > To the best of my
> >knowledge, Julian *never* received a response, either on the posts or
> >through private email.
> >
>
> Whenever I asked about the CMD history, I was told we would learn
> about it at a later date, and that was that. Here's the history: Kim
> comes to America. Kim sees gullible Americans who want to be Bruce
> Lee. Kim learns about pyramid scheme. Kim creates a watered down
> style of MA, crowns himself Champion of all Asia, and declares that
> CMD is far to dangerous to ever use in tournaments (thereby answering
> the question "Why don't you come take us on in a tournament?").
> Kim makes lots of money. Kim decides not to pay taxes. Kim goes to
> jail.
Pretty much how it was, I'd agree.
> So, anyway....I do not have a personal vendetta against the
> individuals of CMD. I'm over it. I was young, stupid, and got duped.
> However, as long as the cult continues to spread like a disease, I
> will continue to share my first hand experience to deter people from
> joining.
Don't get too down on yourself. I knew plenty of older, professional
people who were suckered in as well. Anyone can be vulnerable to a
group like this, depending on what's going on in their life.
> I want to see these places shut down, and I want to see the
> instructors have to go out and get jobs and start their lives over
> from scratch.
They will anyway, Pavlov. Trust me; that money the instructors stole
from you, me, and countless others, didn't go to them, but right on to
"Master". As many students ended up with nothing, so too did the
instructors.
Pavlov
> Chung Moo didn't really develop martial arts
>abilities, the bullies there could continue to bully the others with
>impunity, because they knew that the students wouldn't be able to
>develop to the point where they'd give them a problem.
>
Yeah...that's an important point.
CMD doesn't even TRY to foster martial arts character-building.
It's all physical. They don't even help an opponent up from the
ground after a throw. (Maybe that's not a big deal, but every other
KF and TKD school I've seen, the students show respect and
sportsmanship by helping the other guy up).
Vision5m
because it was down the street. The dojo was very clean and beautifully
decorated. The instructor was very persistent in trying to get people to sign
up. The price list on the wall was appalling. The testimonials from their
students related incredible benefits derived from CMD training.
The "tai-chi chung" which was they touted as better than any other style of
taichi was particularly "interesting". I actually sat and watched one of the
video tapes through in their waiting area. That was nice, cuz it was hot
outside and they had air conditioning. Then they tried to sell that tape to me
on the first day. Ouch.
Not recommended. Caveat emptor.
Pavlov
>I visited one of the CMD schools when I first arrived in Pittsburgh, just
>because it was down the street. The dojo was very clean and beautifully
>decorated. The instructor was very persistent in trying to get people to sign
>up. The price list on the wall was appalling. The testimonials from their
>students related incredible benefits derived from CMD training.
>
The testimonials are the most amusing part. They claim they have
forms which concentrate on the eye muscles, and have cured the
legally-blind.
They also won't teach you a "movement" you haven't paid for.
For instance, say you complain of elbow pain. The instructor will say
"I have a movement which will cure your elbow."
"Can you teach it to me please? My elbow really hurts."
"No...not until you pay for your next trimester...sorry."
nick...@my-deja.com
> I visited one of the CMD schools when I first arrived in Pittsburgh,
just
> because it was down the street. The dojo was very clean and
beautifully
> decorated. The instructor was very persistent in trying to get people
to sign
> up. The price list on the wall was appalling. The testimonials from
their
> students related incredible benefits derived from CMD training.
>
> The "tai-chi chung" which was they touted as better than any other
style of
> taichi was particularly "interesting". I actually sat and watched one
of the
> video tapes through in their waiting area. That was nice, cuz it was
hot
> outside and they had air conditioning. Then they tried to sell that
tape to me
> on the first day. Ouch.
>
> Not recommended. Caveat emptor.
>
Hello Vision--
Thanks for an enlightening post. May I ask when this took place?
I'm actually surprised that there was a price list at all. When I was
involved in the organization, there were *never* any price lists,
anywhere. What exactly was so appalling about the price list? Not that
I couldn't guess...
Also, there really is no martial art called "tai chi chung". Tai chi
chu'an, yes, but not tai chi chung. As to whether it's another way to
spell that, I've never seen it spelled that way outside Chung Moo.
It's good that you didn't sign up...you saved yourself a lot of grief.
nick...@my-deja.com
Hello, Pavlov--
Well, of course not. Chung Moo wasn't about martial arts character
building because it wasn't really about martial arts, period. In fact,
cult expert Joe Szimhart has stated that he feels Chung Moo is a
business cult; coercing students into paying higher and higher fees for
black belt courses, Olympic courses, etc., much in the same way that
multi-level marketing groups coerce their members into paying for
seminars and "advanced programs".
nick...@my-deja.com
> >I visited one of the CMD schools when I first arrived in Pittsburgh,
just
> >because it was down the street. The dojo was very clean and
beautifully
> >decorated. The instructor was very persistent in trying to get people
to sign
> >up. The price list on the wall was appalling. The testimonials from
their
> >students related incredible benefits derived from CMD training.
> >
>
> The testimonials are the most amusing part. They claim they have
> forms which concentrate on the eye muscles, and have cured the
> legally-blind.
>
> They also won't teach you a "movement" you haven't paid for.
> For instance, say you complain of elbow pain. The instructor will say
> "I have a movement which will cure your elbow."
> "Can you teach it to me please? My elbow really hurts."
> "No...not until you pay for your next trimester...sorry."
Hi again Pavlov,
The testimonials are indeed amusing. Of course, they go along with the
party line, but really don't say anything substantive about the
training. The few times that Chung Moo-ers have tried to say
substantive things, they've been hollered down by members of the
legitimate martial arts community. I too heard about eye forms--forms
which enabled the person to control other people by making them control
their minds through looking at them. One instructor I had at Chung Moo
told me that the reason Ninjas were so strong was because they had
stolen an eye form from Chung Moo in years past--this particular form
gave the wielder the ability to drive people insane. Oh, well.
They enticed you with these things all the time--you must pay for
higher-level courses in order to get the movements that'll make you a
superhuman being, etc etc.
Julian M. Frost
> Probably quite true. In the "heyday" of Chung Moo posting, whenever
> people would post things critical of Chung Moo, the instructors or
> whoever would post replies attacking the person, etc., but never
> really refute the arguments. Take Julian Frost's constant posts.
> Julian posted Lord knows how many times asking where, when, with whom
> John C. Kim studied aikido and hapkido and what rank Kim achieved, for
> the purposes of researching why Chung Moo claims to teach aikido and
> hapkido and how good Kim really was at those arts. To the best of my
> knowledge, Julian *never* received a response, either on the posts or
> through private email.
That's right. I never did receive a reply with that information. Just two
weekends ago, I went into a local Chung Moo Doe school (I didn't know it
existed until the week before). I was immediately approached by a lady
that had been training in the other room. She was wearing a black belt,
and what I had seen of her training, just moments ago, reminded me of the
stuff I had seen on a video tape I had been sent by a CMD student several
years ago. It was terrible. She looked quite nervous and timidly asked me
if she could help me. I told her that I had seen the advertisement on the
door that said to come in for a free class or demo. She pointed me towards
another room, where the head instructor was. He came out and was very
cagey about the whole thing. I told him the same thing I had just told the
lady before. He said that I had to make an appointment to get a free class
or a free demo, and pointed at the door, saying that their number was
painted on it. The walls of the school were adorned with photos of John
Kim in all the classic CMD stances, with all the classic CMD propaganda
attached (the same propaganda that tells how CMD arts are thousands of
years old... ignoring the fact that Aikido, Judo and Hapkido [to name only
three of their "8 arts taught as one"] are less than 100 years old).
I asked if I could watch the class, but was told I could not. Apparently
all the people there (and there weren't many) were national instructors,
or something.
So again, I ask any Chung Moo Doe teachers out there the following
questions:
1) What rank was John "Iron" Kim in Aikido?
2) Under which Aikido organization is John Kim's rank recognized?
3) Who was John Kim's Aikido teacher?
4) How long did John Kim study under this teacher, and where?
It has been about three years since I first asked these questions. Maybe
1999 will be the year I get some answers?
Julian
Pavlov
<jfr...@odaiko.ss.uci.edu> wrote:
>How long did John Kim study under this teacher, and where?
>
I asked the school instructor the same question, and he answered "I'll
have to look it up." And that was the end of it. I got that answer
alot.
So, another time, after I had been reading a bit about the histories
of different martial arts, I asked the head instructor the question,
and he told me Kim was taught Pal Guy directly by Wang Po.
nick...@my-deja.com
like you, took the Chung Moo'ers to task a few years ago. Though I must
say, your constant harps on them to supply info on Kim's aikido
background really stood out--and so did their lack of answers.
In fact, I remember your challenging two Chung Moo instructors
directly--instructor Michael McKay, who eventually got convicted by a
jury on the charge of conspiracy to defraud the USA, and national
instructor Jerry Barfield--on Kim's martial arts background. This was
in responses that they'd made. Not even people that high could answer
your questions, even though Barfield claimed to have been associated
with Kim for around 20 years.
Quite an interesting story, Julian. Would you mind if I ask where this
took place? And, do they still go by the name Chung Moo Doe, or Chung
Moo Quan, or do they have something generic, like "8 Martial Arts United
Center"? In my area, a few schools have changed the name to something
generic like that, but Kim's pictures are still everywhere.
This flies in the face of the "we're not like that anymore" stance of
the Chung Moo organization. Still shows evidence, at least to me, that
the organization hasn't changed in the ways it should, if they were
serious about reform.
You didn't happen to grab any literature, did you?
> So again, I ask any Chung Moo Doe teachers out there the following
> questions:
>
> 1) What rank was John "Iron" Kim in Aikido?
> 2) Under which Aikido organization is John Kim's rank recognized?
> 3) Who was John Kim's Aikido teacher?
> 4) How long did John Kim study under this teacher, and where?
>
> It has been about three years since I first asked these questions.
Maybe
> 1999 will be the year I get some answers?
>
> Julian
Hi Julian--I think you and I both know that your chances of receiving an
answer are quite slim.
Take care....Nick
nick...@my-deja.com
> >How long did John Kim study under this teacher, and where?
> >
>
> I asked the school instructor the same question, and he answered "I'll
> have to look it up." And that was the end of it. I got that answer
> alot.
>
> So, another time, after I had been reading a bit about the histories
> of different martial arts, I asked the head instructor the question,
> and he told me Kim was taught Pal Guy directly by Wang Po.
>
Hi, Julian, or anyone---what do you say to this? Sound legit? It
doesn't to me, quite frankly.
Pavlov, aside from this info, was your instructor any more specific?
Did he say whether and where Kim's rank was registered? Did he say when
and where this training took place?
Pavlov
>
>Pavlov, aside from this info, was your instructor any more specific?
>Did he say whether and where Kim's rank was registered? Did he say when
>and where this training took place?
>
>
No way. And, as you know, they discourage asking questions. They
disguise it as "You shouldn't be asking such questions because it
shows doubt in your master, and is disrespectful."
We know the truth now, though: that there IS no history.
nick...@my-deja.com
red...@jupiter.com (Pavlov) wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:19:46 GMT, nick...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Pavlov, aside from this info, was your instructor any more specific?
> >Did he say whether and where Kim's rank was registered? Did he say
when
> >and where this training took place?
> >
> >
>
> No way. And, as you know, they discourage asking questions. They
> disguise it as "You shouldn't be asking such questions because it
> shows doubt in your master, and is disrespectful."
Hi, Pavlov! Yes, I do know--my questions were merely academic. I know
the line of not asking questions because it's disrespectful--allowing
the Lifton though reform criteria of doctrine-over-person and milieu
control to flourish nicely. A legitimate group wouldn't be threatened
by honest questions on their background--in fact, I'm sure many groups
would welcome your interest.
So they say that asking questions is "disrespectful" eh? How about,
it's disrespectful to blow off questions by your students, people whom
you want to trust in you?
> We know the truth now, though: that there IS no history.
That is the truth, yes.
You know, I was thinking. Since that other person started this thread a
while ago (and I do hope our exchanges have answered his questions, and
the questions of any interested parties out there--if not, anyone is of
course welcome to post), we've been going on and on. Notice: No Chung
Moo defenders anywhere. If we were posting this stuff on other martial
arts, there would probably be a wave of posts, but not with this group.
Odd, don't you think?
Julian M. Frost
> > I asked the school instructor the same question, and he answered "I'll
> > have to look it up." And that was the end of it. I got that answer
> > alot.
> >
> > So, another time, after I had been reading a bit about the histories
> > of different martial arts, I asked the head instructor the question,
> > and he told me Kim was taught Pal Guy directly by Wang Po.
> >
>
> Hi, Julian, or anyone---what do you say to this? Sound legit? It
> doesn't to me, quite frankly.
As I don't practise Pal Guy and know very little about it, I tried to
limit myself to questions about Aikido and Hapkido. I can, at least, do
some research in those arts to help find out whether or not any claims
made are true, or not.
Julian
Pavlov
<jfr...@odaiko.ss.uci.edu> wrote:
>
>As I don't practise Pal Guy and know very little about it,
Let me share what I know about it:
Pal Guy practiced incorrectly under the supervision of a sadistic,
unskilled instructor ruins knees.
That's about it. :-)
Pavlov
> Notice: No Chung
>Moo defenders anywhere. If we were posting this stuff on other martial
>arts, there would probably be a wave of posts, but not with this group.
> Odd, don't you think?
>
>
Yep...if somebody got on and started talking about Kung Fu or TKD
being a cult, they'd get laughed (and flamed) out of town.
The Moonies have no defense. The have no sparring experience with
which to test their "skills." The have no counters to all these
claims we're making. Not one of them can come in here and truthfully
dispute anything we're saying.
nick...@my-deja.com
nick...@my-deja.com
All of which is quite true--and again, if you stated that about any
other martial art, people would certainly come back at you--and with
points that could be verifiably tested.
Vision5m
your own self-confidence.
Iron John Kim is legitimate because I have brochures that say so.
Secondly, those of you who say there are no Chung Moo Doe practitioners willing
to defend the organization are wrong. My sister-in-law's half brother's cousin
roommate's friend's friend took Chung Moo Doe and is now a black belt. I heard
it only cost him $150,000 with the discount.
I took Chung Moo Doe for 2 months and it cured my hypertension, diabetes,
obesity, blindness and warts. It also increased my mental focus and staying
power. Actually, my problems went away as soon as I completed my free lesson
and paid the $2000 fee. I can't attribute all these good outcomes to CMD,
because I also study samurai. Wait, that's one of the eight martial arts that I
study at CMD. Anyways, you get my point.
Any questions, please respond.
nick...@my-deja.com
Hi, 'Vision'!
Love the post! Pretty hilarious, and sadly, not all that far from the
real truth about the Chung Moo organization.
AGiladK
ive taken cmd for 3 years and i believe i know one reason why few cmd'ers have
responded.
all these posts create doubts for everyone. and since the proper facts to
respond to these haven't been given (and possibly dont exist) these doubts
remain in the cmd'ers mind. at least that is how it is for me.
btw, ive recently decided on changed ma's, might go into aikido.
my experience has been with caring teachers who recognize that doubters exist.
they did say "judge it from ur own experience" -- which is good advice.
however, verifiable facts were not forthcoming.
about the Pakua training of Kim:
"Although he learned from many qualified teachers, a majority of the knowledge
that Chong Su Nim "Iron" Kim possesses was passed down through Wang Po, the 7th
generation Chong Su Nim of Yin Yang Doe."
www.chungmoodoe.com/history.htm
notice it says the info was passed "through" not directly from Wang Po.
about the cult stuff: i havent seen any of that. kim is mentioned rarely, and
the teacher DID tell me about kim's being in prison when i was just trying to
make conversation. he did aknowledge the irs stuff.
however, he made the excuse that if i were talking to a friend and said "lets
keep $ from the irs" as a joke, that too could be taken as tax fraud/evasion.
true.
also, i havent heard any of that eye stuff u guys talk about.
there was no "All Asia Competition"?
ive gtg.
i have trouble freeing up the comp from my siblings so if u can, email me ur
responses.
Gilad
Ensorceleur-Moine Dragon
"The difference between madness and genious is measured in success."007
"Madness, it's what keeps us alive . . . Stay crazy!" RobinWilliams
"You will never find time for anything.If you want time, you must make
it."CharlesBixt
AGiladK
which school?
when did this happen?
i know these schools. i just want to see if what u say is credible.
Pavlov
>>I visited one of the CMD schools when I first arrived in Pittsburgh,
>
>which school?
>when did this happen?
>i know these schools. i just want to see if what u say is credible.
>
It's credible. I was a member of the Pittsburgh cult. Their school
on Craig St. is more geared to attract lonely college students looking
for some truth.
The Mount Lebanon temple is geared to yuppies and professionals with
good income.
The Craig St. school was much larger. It was quite humorous to see,
too. Since CMD basically sells you a black belt in 2 years and
teaches you next-to-nothing, you get to see all these slow, overweight
people who can't even do basic kicks, punches, or self-defense of any
kind, wearing black belts, and on their way to 2nd degree!
When I was there, they were rushing a student through 1st degree and
towards 2nd so that he could open a franchise of his own. I think it
was down on Route 19, towards the mall. Think of it: a guy with a
total of 3 years MA training, and he was going to be running a school.
There was also a husband-wife team who were UTTERLY brainwashed. They
were spending TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars on this bogus cult in the
hopes they would have their own school. And they had children to
think of.
nick...@my-deja.com
Specifically, to "AGiladK", but really to any interested parties....
My name is Nick and I'm a former member of the Chung Moo Doe martial
arts cult. When I was involved in the organization, it was known as
Chung Moo Quan. I was involved in the group for six years in the
1980s. Recently, I posted in response to a "newbie's" question on
Chung Moo Doe, and gave several sources they could go to in order to
research the matter. I would recommend that you, AGiladK, search
through Deja and look at my recent posts, and go from there. Believe
me, there ought to be enough information that I refer you to that will
keep you busy for a while!
If there are further questions on the matter, I invite you to post on
the group addressing your questions to me, or email me privately.
Lance
These threads of this guy (John Kim) have got me wondering. In the
early 70's, a guy named John Kim came from Korea & opened a martial arts
studio next door to my parents business in Long Beach, CA. He was
teaching something he called "Kong Su" at the time. He then moved to
North Long Beach and then to Lomita. I think during one of these moves
that he changed the name to Chung Moo Quan or something like that. Is
this the same guy? Last I heard was that he was charging $5000 for a
black belt, guaranteed in 3 years. My brother trained there when he was
about 10-12 for a year or so. Anyways, it would be interesting to know
if this is him.
Lance
nick...@my-deja.com
Hi, Lance. You know, I'm not 100% sure about what you've said, but it
sure as hell sounds like "my" John C. Kim. I know that Chung Moo
schools were also out in CA, although the Chicago-area schools were the
"nerve center" of the organization for a long time. "Kong Su" was one
of the 8 arts that Chung Moo claimed to have taught; in school
brochures, the claim was that Kong Su was synonymous with tae kwon do,
though I've never heard tae kwon do described as Kong Su at any other
time other than what Chung Moo claimed.
As you may have heard, the prices went drastically up from $5000. I can
tell you, as revealed in the "Chung Moo Quan: The Cult & The Con" expose
aired by WBBM-TV Chicago in 1989. The prices went up to $30,000, and
more. Though I never paid such prices, the instructors I had at the
time of my involvement said that's what it cost to get a black belt and
become an instructor.
If anyone has more specific information tying this "John Kim" that Lance
mentioned to the "John C. Kim" we all know and love (:^), I'd be really
grateful if they posted it. I'd find it fascinating to learn the "early
history" of the organization.
Also, Lance, if I could ask you a favor, and post your brother's
experiences with this John Kim? I'd be really interested to know how
the organization was run back in the "early days", again assuming that
this John Kim and John C. Kim are the same. Of course, only do that if
you feel comfortable doing so.
---Nick
Lance
I spoke to my brother but he doesn't remember that much. He did say
that he thought that John had a brother who may have been a martial arts
"champion". I do believe this is the same guy. Terry (my brother) said
his name *was* John C. Kim. One kinda unique thing he did was the
coloring of the belts. As each level was reached, he would dye a
10"-12" section of the belt black until the the whole belt was black.
Not any real dirt on the guy but its something that may identify him as
the same one.
What I remember (my parents wanted me to sign up but I never did) is
the school was very small - maybe 20'x30'. I would say that it looked
something like Tae Kwan Do. In the late 70's, he moved a few blocks
away for a few years then moved about 2 miles up the street to North
Long Beach. I think this is when the name change happened. In the
early 80's I started with Hwa Rang Do in the same building where Kim had
moved up the street. We then ended up in Kim's bigger buiding in N.
Long Beach after he moved to Lomita/Harbor City area. Kinda weird that
we were in the same buildings, huh?
As I'm writing this I just had a revelation. A friend of mine who moved
to San Diego recently also went to the same school. I'll e-mail him
right now & see if he remembers anything. Anyways, I'll be interested
to see if anyone else in L.A. area remembers him.
Lance
nick...@my-deja.com
> Nick,
>
> I spoke to my brother but he doesn't remember that much. He did say
> that he thought that John had a brother who may have been a martial
arts
> "champion". I do believe this is the same guy. Terry (my brother)
said
> his name *was* John C. Kim. One kinda unique thing he did was the
> coloring of the belts. As each level was reached, he would dye a
> 10"-12" section of the belt black until the the whole belt was black.
> Not any real dirt on the guy but its something that may identify him
as
> the same one.
Hi Lance. Thanks a whole lot for sending this info along. I think from
this information, it's now 99% sure that this is in fact the same John
C. Kim who founded the Chung Moo martial arts cult. They did the exact
same coloring scheme--coloring portions of the belt black when you
passed each test. The belts were divided into seven "sections"; when
you passed your 1st test, 1/7th of your belt was dyed black, so you
became a 1st section. At 7th section, the whole belt was dyed black,
hence you were a black belt. I made up to 6th section.
As far as the brother thing goes, I was always told that John C. Kim had
a brother Tom Kim, who was reputedly very mean. Of course, I too was
told Tom Kim was a martial arts champion, but then we were told John C.
Kim was "champion of all Asia", and we know how that goes. Do you know
anyone who actually met Tom Kim? Although we'd heard a lot about him, I
never knew anyone who actually met Tom Kim, and in all the media
accounts I've read and seen I've never heard Tom Kim mentioned. Also,
no Chung Moo person with whom I've emailed has ever met Tom Kim.
> What I remember (my parents wanted me to sign up but I never did) is
> the school was very small - maybe 20'x30'. I would say that it looked
> something like Tae Kwan Do. In the late 70's, he moved a few blocks
> away for a few years then moved about 2 miles up the street to North
> Long Beach. I think this is when the name change happened. In the
> early 80's I started with Hwa Rang Do in the same building where Kim
had
> moved up the street. We then ended up in Kim's bigger buiding in N.
> Long Beach after he moved to Lomita/Harbor City area. Kinda weird
that
> we were in the same buildings, huh?
Weird, yes.
> As I'm writing this I just had a revelation. A friend of mine who
moved
> to San Diego recently also went to the same school. I'll e-mail him
> right now & see if he remembers anything. Anyways, I'll be interested
> to see if anyone else in L.A. area remembers him.
>
I'd be interested, too. Also, if there are any Chung Moo people reading
this who went to any of the California schools, particularly in the
1980s...why were the schools so silent when so much attention was
focused on them? Did you see parallels between things at your school
and things that were reported to have happened at the schools in
Massachusetts, Minnesota and Texas?