Purpose of forms
Karl Migros
ways that the intent of forms can be lost if it is approached in an
unthinking way. BUT if the proper understanding is there, I don't find them
useless at all. I hear this stuff all the time from JKD people. I am
wondering what they know about form (why they think people in traditional
arts practice them), and why they think (specifically please) that it is a
waste of time. For the most part I think JKD guys are just spouting out
what their instructors tell them, but I may be wrong, so I want to see why
all you JKD people say what you say ( because most non JKD people probably
agree that it does sound like rhetoric).
Please understand that I'm not attacking JKD or any of it's principles or
Bruce Lee or anything. I just want to know if there is understanding there.
After talking with a JKD guy, I begin to feel that while good ol Bruce
figured alot out about traditional methods of training (and deserves alot of
respect for it), some of the guys farther down the tree have lost sight (or
never had a clue) about what the problems were with traditional
styles/methods because they have NO exposure. So they say their stuff and
it sounds really hollow, or a merely a quote that anyone can make if they
read the Tao of Jeet Kun Do. Anyway, if some JKD guys can give me an idea
of their understanding of forms and their problems with them, I can put my
mind at ease.
KM
Toga
My opinion on forms/kata....I have no real problem with people practicing
forms etc, but i believe that if people practice forms in the belief it is
improving there fighting skills are totally mislead. Forms are good as
meditation ( ie controllings ones movements ), increasing flexibility and
perfecting techniques.
But i feel too many martial arts concentrate too much of there time on
forms. The most important components to concentrate on in order to improve
ones fighting abilities is reflex, timing, power and speed and the majority
of practice should focus on these. Such as heavy bag work, focus pads, thai
pads, full/semi contact sparring, full contact partner drills.
Forms also give a poor indication on the power and effectiveness of your
techniques. While practicing on a heavy bag, you can really feel the impact
of your strikes. Forms also suggest a structured way of fighting, but i
believe it is important for all martial artist to discover what works for
them.
Karl Migros <ka_m...@advancenet.com> wrote in message
news:t02jma2...@corp.supernews.com...
Hal
<ka_m...@advancenet.com> wrote:
>I hear alot about how practicing forms are useless. I see how there are
>ways that the intent of forms can be lost if it is approached in an
>unthinking way. BUT if the proper understanding is there, I don't find them
>useless at all.
I agree. I think forms are an excellent training exercise. Of course
they do not substitute for in-the-ring contact training as far as self
defense is concerned. But they do teach the student how to move, how
to transition between techniques, focus of power, etc.. And if done
correctly, can be a hell of a workout.
Hal
veng...@my-deja.com
you are expecting the forms to show you how to fight then I don't think
you will gain much. Many people have the mistaken belief that a form
is nothing more than a pretend fight to be used for "fighting
experience". These folks are missing the point.
The point of a form is to teach movement. This includes not only the
techniques of the form, but the movements between the techniques.
Forms teach good body mechanics and structure, balance and coordination.
People interpret forms at many different levels. The most basic level
is to assume that each technique is a specific response to a specific
situation. In other words, each technique has ONE application and only
one application. This is a very limited understanding of the form, and
it quickly becomes impractical in actual application. For one thing,
the movements of the form are very stylized, which is unlike what you
will see in an actual conflict. Furthermore, it is very limiting to
have responses only to the specific situations you have found in your
form.
Other people go a bit further and realize that there is more than one
application for each technique or movement in the form. These folks
become collectors of applications. Once again, this is an incomplete
understanding of the form, and is very limiting in that you are still
confined to the applications you have found so far.
The idea is to move beyond the form. Learn the concepts behind the
movements, rather than just learning the movements themselves. Examine
WHY the movements are combined in such a manner, and why those
movements work in certain situations. This type of thinking will make
for a much deeper understanding of the form. More importantly, you
will not be confined to any specific interpretation (or
interpretations) of the form.
I think you make a wonderful point about Bruce Lee that most people
overlook. Bruce Lee was in fact very proficient at forms. What made
him great was his ability to see past the form… To take what he could
gain from the form and then move on. People who simply disregard
forms "because Bruce said so" are missing both his point and the point
of forms training. Lee advocated finding your own path, not blindly
following his.
This type of thinking is very unpopular to some so-
called "traditionalists" who believe that each form should be kept
exactly the same forever and ever. What these folks don't realize is
that up until rather recently, forms were very often taught differently
depending on the student. This was especially true in the Okinawan
styles where the same kata (form) could be very different for two
students of the same master.
To answer your question, I for one think that forms are VERY useful
training tools - if taken in the proper context. I don't think forms
training BY ITSELF will make you a good fighter, but they do help.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Karl Migros
"Toga" <parh...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:YBcM5.3370$45....@news1.belrs1.nsw.optushome.com.au...
>
>
>
> My opinion on forms/kata....I have no real problem with people practicing
> forms etc, but i believe that if people practice forms in the belief it is
> improving there fighting skills are totally mislead. Forms are good as
> meditation ( ie controllings ones movements ), increasing flexibility and
> perfecting techniques.
>
> But i feel too many martial arts concentrate too much of there time on
> forms. The most important components to concentrate on in order to improve
> ones fighting abilities is reflex, timing, power and speed and the
majority
> of practice should focus on these. Such as heavy bag work, focus pads,
thai
> pads, full/semi contact sparring, full contact partner drills.
>
> Forms also give a poor indication on the power and effectiveness of your
> techniques. While practicing on a heavy bag, you can really feel the
impact
> of your strikes. Forms also suggest a structured way of fighting, but i
> believe it is important for all martial artist to discover what works for
> them.
Thanks for the reply. Please look at my reply to venger because i don't
want to write the same things over and over. Thanks again.
KM
Karl Migros
I would imagine that it isn't your first art. I've viewed forms in 2 ways.
1) A way of communicating concepts
Thousands, hundreds and even just 50 years ago, people were unable to pass
on the concepts of their style with anything other than teach students and
hope they understand. These masters would develop a form that emphasized a
concept, then teach that to students till they mastered it and could pass
that knowlege on. It's funny though that everyone who has ever taught adds
a little of their flavor to the form, so who knows if what you're learning
is the original form. But if it's not the original, that's not necessarialy
bad. As long as it still communicates the same concepts, then it's fine
with me.
2) It is a way of developing technique
Lots of JKD people make fun of form. But if they understood how one can
develop a technique through form, they would realize that they themselves
are practicing form. It's called SHADOW BOXING. It is a staple to any
boxer and JKD training regimen. But what is Shadow Boxing? It's merely a
series of applied techniques in a random sequence. But everyone starts
somewhere, and at some point you were just using jabs and hooks, and
probably not alot of footwork. Remember this one?
Jab-Jab-Cross-Hook
Practiced that one alot I bet. Now, how is this set sequence of moves any
different than a small 4 step pattern in a form? It's very simple and yet
necessary. Every boxer or JKD practictioner uses it. As you progress, you
practice different, more complicated combos that emphasize more footwork and
more advanced concepts like drawing, feinting or leading. Doesn't this
sound like form? Sure you take your combos and put them all in random
order, but they're all there. Forms are the traditional equivalent of
Shadow Boxing.
I must say then that there are plenty of waste of time forms. I know some
instructors that claim to know over 100 forms for their style. Are there
really that many specific concepts that you need to learn that require a
separate form? Or perhaps do they have belts for each form that they can
test and make money. I think schools that have these types of instructors
are doing form for the sake of form. Most of the combat application can be
learned in probably the first dozen at most (after that you might as well
just shadow box and put the techniques in random sequence instead of calling
it a form). Am I in agreement with most when I say that Shadow Boxing has
direct application to fighting (not complete, but direct)? If so, then I
don't see how one can claim that form has no application to fighting.
Well, let me know what you guys think. I've been pondering this for quite a
while and would love to have some input. Again thanks for the replys
KM
veng...@my-deja.com
>Thanks for the reply. Are you a JKD practitioner? In any case, if
>you are I would imagine that it isn't your first art. I've viewed
>forms in 2 ways.
I don't consider myself a JKD practitioner but my training has been
influenced a great deal by JKD. I've learned from people who I've
trained with and through reading the works of Bruce Lee, and also those
who have followed him. I'm somewhere in-between traditional Karate and
JKD...
One quote that I like from Lee pretty much sums up what I feel about
forms training:
"Expression is not developed through the practice of form, yet
form is a part of expression. The greater (expression) is not
found in the lesser (expression) but the lesser is found within
the greater. Having 'no form,' then, does not mean having no
'form.' Having 'no form' evolves from having form. 'No form'
is the higher, individual expression."
Gichoke
> But if they understood how one can
>develop a technique through form, they would realize that they themselves
>are practicing form. It's called SHADOW BOXING
Ludicrous comparison shadow boxing is not a prearranged sequence.
>
>Jab-Jab-Cross-Hook
>
>Practiced that one alot I bet. Now, how is this set sequence of moves any
>different than a small 4 step pattern in a form?
In boxing punches are thrown correctly.
>As you progress, you
>practice different, more complicated combos that emphasize more footwork and
>more advanced concepts like drawing, feinting or leading. Doesn't this
>sound like form?
No.
>Forms are the traditional equivalent of
>Shadow Boxing.
And vastly inferior.
>
>Well, let me know what you guys think.
I think my chicken wings are ready.
Gi
Gichoke
>The point of a form is to teach movement. This includes not only the
>techniques of the form, but the movements between the techniques.
Gee, another guy just wrote this really longwinded peice on another thread
about how forms were "a libray of techniques" and "just a way of passing
techniques to the next generation".
He seemed real scholarly and didnt mention movement once.
You guys should just admit that you really have no clue what the point of forms
are, just say you like doin them.
That is enough, they serve no purpose but if they make you happy, then fine.
But don't bullshit yourselves.
Gi
T. Galvin
"Karl Migros" <ka_m...@advancenet.com> wrote:
<snip>
Well, i do Judo, but I read 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do,' so please let me
drop in. :)
In class tonight, my sensei was using the pads on the walls as makawari
boards, and eventually conversation turned to karate, and I showed them
a couple of kata, namely Tai Kyo Ku Shodan and Sandan. I worked up a
good sweat, and I was happy to see that I remembered the forms after
being away from the art for so long.
Kata, according to my teacher (I was in Washin Ryu, and only the grand
master is called 'sensei'), were kind of like a database of violent
movement, a way of recording and passing along all of the information
that the school has picked up over the years, and a way of training the
body to move in an efficient, powerful manner.
This idea is prevelent in all the martial arts; students must be able
to move their bodies correctly before they have any hope of using their
technique in a fight. As someone said in regards to dancing (sorry,
but I can't remember who it was, and this is going to be a paraphrase
at best), 'This is movement of the body unopposed. Let's hope we can
get at least that far before we put something in front of it.'
Boxers will stand in front of a mirror and jab, cross, hook. Judoka
will machikomi to get the feel for a throw. Karateka will do their
kata. In this sense, all arts have a method of teaching the basics of
movement to their students to get them ready to preform the real
thing. The problem many of us have with kata is that the techniques
espoused are flawed; imporoper posture, feet planted, hands low, et
cetera. The mechanics behinde the boxer's jab, cross, hook are far
apart from the karateka's 90 degree downblock to the left, middle
punch, 180 degree downblock to the right, and middle punch that begin
Tai Kyo Ku Shodan (actually, those might be high punches; my memory
isn't perfect). Also, shaodw boxing allows for spontineity, and if my
entry is wrong when I'm fitting a throw, I will try and go for another,
while in kata there is a set sequence of movements.
The second major problem that many people have with kata is that they
are the primary focus of quite a few martial artists, while sparring is
neglected. Evenm if the forms learned are correct, if your only
practice is in front of a mirror, you have little hope of applying them
agains a resisting opponent in real time. Shadow boxing will teach you
how to punch correctly, and I can throw just fine if Uke lets me, but
when push comes to shove, it is the man that has experience adapting to
and controlling an unwilling opponent that will carry the day. The
people that can pull of their techniques on demand and under pressure
are the ones that move beyond form, whether it be learned through kata
or shadow boxing, and into live, adaptive competition. It is in this
form of practice that you learn how your body works, and how your
technique works with your body. My jab is different from your jab, my
rythm is different from your rythm, my Ippon is different from your
Ippon. There are basics that our styles share, but they come to life
in different ways because we are different people with different bodies.
So, in my humble opinion, Lee's advice to move beyond form was two
fold; first, move past the set sequence of a form into live, free
flowing practice, and second, to move past the idealized kata form of a
technique into the live, working form that *you* will be able to use
when it becomes necessary.
Thomas
PS: My karate teacher could still kick my ass, so there's something to
be said for the old ways. I think they could be improved, but against
a guy that isn't ready for it, karate will still come as a heavy shock.
Chas
> I agree. I think forms are an excellent training exercise. Of course
> they do not substitute for in-the-ring contact training as far as self
> defense is concerned. But they do teach the student how to move, how
> to transition between techniques, focus of power, etc.. And if done
> correctly, can be a hell of a workout.
I don't know of any martial art that has used forms as a stand alone
training mechanism. Forms are for *solo* exercise- they are like
practicing scales or finger exercises on a musical instrument.
If I have one regret in my martial training, it is that I neglected my
forms. I emphasized group activities; sparring, two-man drills, athletic
exercise and so on.
It was a major mistake.
--
Chas
"It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!"
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/Keepsafe.htm http://www.kuntaosilat.com/
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/cane.html www.kilap.homepage.com/chas.mpg
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/monkey.html
Kirk Lawson
Chas wrote:
> Hal wrote:
It's nice to see you two getting along. Makes the place less "messy".
Now, about this Dan Davies guy...
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk Lawson
Gichoke
>Good post. I like it better than the Gichoke "You are all gay and I am cool
>response".
I've been expanding my repatoire(sic) of late.
It's workin' for me.
>Heh. I was hoping for someone with intelligence to respond
You came to the wrong place.
>rather than masking their ignorance with clever remarks and insults.
I find the ignorant less than clever.
>I agree with what you're saying about form. But what I was trying to get at
>is a specific thing... It is the foolishness of JKD practitioners that claim
>that form is a waste of time because
>1) Although they make you sweat, they do nothing else
I've never done forms(I'm straight(sorry, I am not totally out of my trolling
ways)) but the people I've seen doin them don't seem to be getting a great
workout.
>2) They do them for the sake of doing them
That reason if fine, but my point is that guys that have done forms for years
rarely seem to agree as to why they do them.
> If you're doing them for the sake of
>doing them, then you're stupid for training your ass off with no
>understanding of why you're doing it.
Yeah, my point exactly.
>And shadow boxing is not as good as
>sparring when developing fighting prowess, and yet amazingly enough PEOPLE
>STILL DO IT! Why is that?
1) you need equiptment and a partner to spar.
2) you can only spar so much or you get too hurt.
> Shadow Boxing is not an
>end all, but it serves its purposes. I think of form the same way.
One is alive and keeps you maoving and flowing as in a match, and the hands are
kept up and punches are thrown just as in sparring.
The other is dead and static. the hands are kept down techniques are done
differently than in a match.
> I think for the most
>part its because traditional training methods don't emphasize understanding.
>It's more of repetition till perfection.
But they are repeating incorrect techniques and perfecting very dangerous
habits.
> But I don't think that every school is like that. Many have
>turned once traditional arts into what is pretty much a combat science.
>Boxing is very scientific. What I hear of BJJ it is the same as well.
True.There is a karateschool near me that a BJJ guy teaches at, he has gotten
grappling to be 25% of their system, then several members fought in NHB.And the
odd part isn't that they were outgrappled, but that they were badly outstruck
by wrestlers an BJJers.
So now the BJJer has told the sensi that they must alter their strikes and
basically make their training like Muay Thai.And the karate guys are slowly
moving in that direction,which is good.
But now it is not karate, not one bit.
> I don't learn much
>from the head instructor at my school because he tells me to do a drill,
>corrects my form and that's it. So I can do the drill or I can do the form.
>What does that do for me? Will it magically help me someday when I am in a
>situation?
No.
>I think most people critical of traditional arts and forms have
>seen people like my head sifu and concluded that the such an art is
>nonsense.
I (and all modren NHB type trainers) have trained with tons of traditionalists,
I had a long conversation the other day with 2 guys that just joined my school
whjo were insisting an Aikido guy they knew could wristlock me.I said it was
ridiculous, they argued.I said "get him here or shut up about him" .they shut
up.One guy just joined went on and on about his karate style and said that it
would help him grappling.We didnt bother telling him that most of us have
traditional blackbelts, but are embarressed by them.
His karate didnt help.He tried wrist locks grappling.I told him that only
grappling styles work while grappling.He was very resilient and reluctant to
tap.I imagine he is very, very sore and realises now he must learn how to
fight.And that his karate was a waste.He will go back to them.Or quit and join
us.There is no middleground.He left saying he'd try our Vale Tudo class where
karate will help him.We let him believe it.But we have all done MT and
boxing(some of us competitively) his karate and his toughness will get him hurt
bad.
Gi
T. Galvin
"Karl Migros" <ka_m...@advancenet.com> wrote:
<snip>
<<I agree with what you're saying about form. But what I was trying to
get at is a specific thing... It is the foolishness of JKD
practitioners that claim that form is a waste of time because>>
<<1) Although they make you sweat, they do nothing else>>
No, they train your body to move in a certain way, just like practicing
a swing or a foul shot. However, if you are practicing wrong form, as
is advocated by many kata, the only useful thing you will get out of
kata is a good sweat. I know a lot of karateka that can hit like
trucks, but when they spar, the sucessful ones do not move like they do
in kata. Including something that you cannot use in live conditions in
a fighting art (and not stating specifically that it is only to build
flexibility, endurance, etc) is dubious at best.
<<2) They do them for the sake of doing them>>
You will very rarely see anyone do kata for kata's sake, especially at
higher levels, but you may not get what you want from your form. As
many people here are fond of saying, if ytou practice horse stance, you
respond with horse stance. That is a simplified view of things, but it
is getting at the basic truth; you reap what you sow.
<<3) It's not as good as sparring, so why do it?>>
Every art requires a method of teachiong fundamentals to its students.
Karate has kata and makawari boards, boxing has shadowboxing and bag
work. Even long time practritioners will go back to these training
methods to polish their technique. Boxing, though, focuses much more
on live application against a resisting opponent, and is in general
more technically correct.
JKD suffers just as much from "Well, my Sifu said so" disease as any
other art. I like a lot of their philosophy, and the strong lead has
worked into my Judo quite well. Still, there are a lot of people in
all of the arts that take the school line and run with it, emboldened
by the support of their teachers or their teacher's treachers, with
little practical experience in the matter.
Thomas
veng...@my-deja.com
I can only assume by your response that you are not familiar with
Gichoke. Gichoke is a troll... He only posts when he thinks he can
force a reaction. Basically, he just likes starting arguments. I
would suggest that you either ignore him, or just take his posts for
what they really are - a joke.
veng...@my-deja.com
>No, they train your body to move in a certain way, just like
>practicing a swing or a foul shot. However, if you are practicing
>wrong form, as is advocated by many kata, the only useful thing you
>will get out of kata is a good sweat. I know a lot of karateka that
>can hit like trucks, but when they spar, the sucessful ones do not
>move like they do in kata. Including something that you cannot use in
>live conditions in a fighting art (and not stating specifically that
>it is only to build flexibility, endurance, etc) is dubious at best.
The movements of kata are very stylized in order to emphasize the gross
motor movements. You should not expect to use a technique from a kata
exactly as it is in the kata. The point is to learn the movement in
the kata and then build your own technique off of that foundation.
Consider the typical Karate reverse punch. Deep stance, hands starting
at hips, full rotation, and the opposite hand retracting... Just about
every experienced fighter will tell you this won't work in a live
altercation. However, the point is it doesn't have to. The point of
the formal technique is to build the overall foundation of the punch.
The deep stance teaches solid rooting. The body rotation and
retraction teach full body power generation.
A good Karate instructor should TELL you that kata movements cannot be
directly translated into combat. Unfortunately, there are a great
number of people who think that kata movements are exactly the way we
should be moving in a real fight. This comes from a very poor
understanding of kata, which is then passed on to students who have
even less of an understanding.
>You will very rarely see anyone do kata for kata's sake, especially at
>higher levels, but you may not get what you want from your form. As
>many people here are fond of saying, if ytou practice horse stance,
>you respond with horse stance. That is a simplified view of things,
>but it is getting at the basic truth; you reap what you sow.
I will agree with this to a point... If you practice a certain way,
your body will respond that way in application, at least to a certain
degree. However, speaking as someone who has trained a great deal with
kata, I have not found myself reacting with a deep horse stance when it
was not appropriate. This, once again, I think stems from the proper
use of kata.
>Every art requires a method of teachiong fundamentals to its students.
>Karate has kata and makawari boards, boxing has shadowboxing and bag
>work. Even long time practritioners will go back to these training
>methods to polish their technique. Boxing, though, focuses much more
>on live application against a resisting opponent, and is in general
>more technically correct.
I'm not sure I agree on this point... Although I can say I think it's
true for MOST Karate schools as compared to boxing, I think that the
better karate schools avoid this problem. The problem, I think, is
that most Karate schools focus too much on the forms themselves and not
enough on using the form to find their own form (if that makes any
sense). In other words, most Karate schools do not emphasize the
student adapting the form to himself. They try to hard to
keep "correct" form.
>JKD suffers just as much from "Well, my Sifu said so" disease as any
>other art. I like a lot of their philosophy, and the strong lead has
>worked into my Judo quite well. Still, there are a lot of people in
>all of the arts that take the school line and run with it, emboldened
>by the support of their teachers or their teacher's treachers, with
>little practical experience in the matter.
I think you are uncovering the root of the problem, and it is a problem
with the arts in general - but especially with Karate. Karl mentioned
this too...
Many people who learn kata never take the time or make the effort to
really understand the kata. They learn how to move, but never go
beyond "how" to learn "why" they are moving that way. This was every
common when Karate (and the arts in general) were originally offered to
the West - many of the masters just didn't want to reveal the real
reasons behind the forms. They were willing to teach the forms, but
not much beyond the forms.
In any event, when people learn the forms without really understanding
the forms, they then go on to teach more people who end up having the
same lack of understanding. As the cycle repeats itself, students down
the line have even less chance of understanding the forms.
A big part of what Bruce Lee did was to point out this lack of
understanding. People were doing the forms as an end unto themselves -
in other words doing the forms for the sake of doing forms. Instead of
taking what was useful out of the forms, people were just assuming that
the forms were the final goal.
A form should teach you movement, and the bunkai (applications) of the
form should give you some ideas as to how you might use those
movements. Visualizing an opponent can give you some ideas as to when
you you might use those movements. But if you want to learn to fight,
you have to move beyond the form and train with a live opponent. You
have to adapt the form TO YOU.
Toddc
I wouldn't classify myself as a JKD/Jun Fan student...not yet. Although I
have done some training recently with a Kali/JKD school.
Most people I know involved with the JKD movement have all come from
extensive traditional art backgrounds first. Most of them would never say ALL
forms are useless. Most practiced forms diligently and came to realize through
experience that styles that emphasize forms over other things eventually flaws
outweighed the gains.
IMHO it depends on the form, the concepts and range the form intends to train.
AND Finally the instilled vital "intent" behind the form.
Not all forms are created equally.
Most styles - in the eyes of JKD practitioners - spend little time on
"intent". And in some styles forms if you do have intent - and actually
attempt to visualize the applications of the form - it falls apart as
illogical. Often requiring your imaginary attackers to be single-limbed, two
feet tall and/or complete retards. Plus little class time was spent on forms.
It was a solo home-work endevor.
They realized that they would rather focus their available training time to
Partner drilling, Bag work, weight training, etc. You go to class and have
people around you - so use them. Instead of spending free time with solo
practice. It's a shift in emphasis and more efficient use of time for those
that have little time to train.
IOW - When I leave the dojo I'm no longer training to save my life - I am
living it.
So, ideally, if you could summon up a partner at will to practice with, forms
are then rendered anachronistic.
I myself trained a good deal of traditional and traditional inspired forms
and yet NEVER saw most of the supposed concepts (let alone the individual
techniques) (successfully) applied even remotely close to the form in free
sparring (esp. with other disciplines). Never. Ever. In over six years and
various styles and schools. Never. Everything that spontaneously rolled out
of me and my co-trainers resembled more of what we drilled in groups or on
focus mitts.
There you have it.
--
Todd K Christensen
T. Galvin
veng...@my-deja.com wrote:
<snip>
<<The movements of kata are very stylized in order to emphasize the
gross motor movements. You should not expect to use a technique from a
kata exactly as it is in the kata. The point is to learn the movement
in the kata and then build your own technique off of that foundation.>>
I agree, but I must ask why one would bother to teach gross motor
movements, then ask the student to adapt them to themselves, and then
make them work, when it is demonstrably possible to teach functional
motor movement right off the bat, then let the student work on
application?
<<Consider the typical Karate reverse punch. Deep stance, hands
starting at hips, full rotation, and the opposite hand retracting...
Just about every experienced fighter will tell you this won't work in a
live altercation. However, the point is it doesn't have to. The point
of the formal technique is to build the overall foundation of the
punch. The deep stance teaches solid rooting. The body rotation and
retraction teach full body power generation.>>
As I said, Karateka can hit like trucks. Still, that kind of full-body
power generation is not quite as workable against a moving target that
hits back. Boxers hit harder than hell, too, and are usually more able
to do so under duress and on the move.
<<A good Karate instructor should TELL you that kata movements cannot
be directly translated into combat. Unfortunately, there are a great
number of people who think that kata movements are exactly the way we
should be moving in a real fight. This comes from a very poor
understanding of kata, which is then passed on to students who have
even less of an understanding.>>
<snip>
<<However, speaking as someone who has trained a great deal with kata,
I have not found myself reacting with a deep horse stance when it was
not appropriate. This, once again, I think stems from the proper use
of kata.>>
I can't argue with your experience, but I still question the validity
of introducing non combat-oriented forms into a combat-oriented art.
It seems to me that there is a much more eficient way of doing things.
<snip>
##JKD suffers just as much from "Well, my Sifu said so" disease as any
other art##
<<I think you are uncovering the root of the problem, and it is a
problem with the arts in general - but especially with Karate. Karl
mentioned this too...>
It is a problem with any practitioner that doesn't have to prove he can
pull off what he claims to know. Sparring, and some form of
competition, are in my opinion vital to anyone who wants to
realistically evaluate themselves and improve their technique and
strategy.
<snip to end>
Good post, though I have some disagreement.
Thomas
T. Galvin
"Karl Migros" <ka_m...@advancenet.com> wrote:
<<Good post. I like it better than the Gichoke "You are all gay and I
am cool response". Heh. I was hoping for someone with intelligence to
respond rather than masking their ignorance with clever remarks and
insults.>>
Gichoke actually knows quite a bit about this stuff. I'm not good
enough to pull off a lot of the things he has suggested when I'm
working on my ground game, but he has given me a lot to think about.
In regards to the "You are all gay and I am cool response," you will
have to excuse him. He has been crusading against the flawed ways in
the martial arts for some time, and is growing tired. As a reward for
his dilligence, though I believe that the Elder Gods are going to
induct him into their pantheon soon. If you note, he has started
saying things such as "Gichoke's word is proof!" and refering to
himself in the third person. Be nice, or you might get hit with a
lightning bolt.
Thomas
veng...@my-deja.com
>I agree, but I must ask why one would bother to teach gross motor
>movements, then ask the student to adapt them to themselves, and then
>make them work, when it is demonstrably possible to teach functional
>motor movement right off the bat, then let the student work on
>application?
Well, that is a good point. There are a couple of reasons to use a
form to teach. First, by teaching the form to several students, you
can have several students working on their own to develop their
technique, as opposed to having to teach each student each technique
indivudually. Second, the form allows a great number of movements and
concepts to passed on all at once. Third, the form provides a general
study of movement, as opposed to just specific "techniques". In other
words, there is much more than technique in a form.
Finally, I think that development of gross movements into technique
gives the student a better understanding of the technique. In other
words, the student is essentially developing his or her OWN technique,
as opposed to learning the technique of another person. In general, I
think learning to do something yourself gives a better understanding
than if someone shows you how to do it. That of course is just opinion.
>As I said, Karateka can hit like trucks. Still, that kind of full-
>body power generation is not quite as workable against a moving target
>that hits back. Boxers hit harder than hell, too, and are usually
>more able to do so under duress and on the move.
That is a common problem with Karateka... Incredible power, but not
much sense of what to do with it. This can be overcome by realistic
sparring, as well as drills that build timing, distance, and so forth.
Also, this problem is also due in my opinion to an over-emphasis on the
form itself.
>I can't argue with your experience, but I still question the validity
>of introducing non combat-oriented forms into a combat-oriented art.
>It seems to me that there is a much more eficient way of doing things.
Well, calling the forms non combat-oriented depends on how you are
looking at the forms. I believe that forms training develops
attributes that are useful in combat - therefore, I would call them
combat oriented. It is a matter of perspective.
I have heard many traditionalists claim that sparring is non combat-
related, because the combatants are controlling themselves. Their
point is that if we control our blows to avoid injuring our opponent in
training, we will do so in application. I don't particularly agree
with them, but I do see their point.
>It is a problem with any practitioner that doesn't have to prove he
>can pull off what he claims to know. Sparring, and some form of
>competition, are in my opinion vital to anyone who wants to
>realistically evaluate themselves and improve their technique and
>strategy.
I agree completely. I believe that students should be REQUIRED to
demonstrate usable fighting skills. Furthermore, I think these skills
should be tested against as many different types of fighters as
possible. Go out and find some people who box, or wrestle, or kickbox,
or whatever and have some friendly matches. Find out what works for
you and what doesn't.
>Good post, though I have some disagreement.
Hey, if we all agreed it would be a rather boring newsgroup :b
I appreciate your opinions.
Jeff
"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001102225550...@ng-co1.aol.com...
Yup, u caught us. Personally, forms are the only kind of dance i know. You
wouldnt beleive the looks i get when i hit the dance floor at a country bar
around here. It aint the best way to pick up chicks either.
-jeff
Karl Migros
response". Heh. I was hoping for someone with intelligence to respond
rather than masking their ignorance with clever remarks and insults.
I agree with what you're saying about form. But what I was trying to get at
is a specific thing... It is the foolishness of JKD practitioners that claim
that form is a waste of time because
1) Although they make you sweat, they do nothing else
2) They do them for the sake of doing them
3) It's not as good as sparring, so why do it?
You here these things over and over again. But I could say the same thing
about a bad boxer doing bad shadow boxing. If you're dumb, then you're just
doing Tae Bo when you shadow box. If you're doing them for the sake of
doing them, then you're stupid for training your ass off with no
understanding of why you're doing it. And shadow boxing is not as good as
sparring when developing fighting prowess, and yet amazingly enough PEOPLE
STILL DO IT! Why is that? Maybe because you gain something from it that
prepares you for sparring or fighting situations. Shadow Boxing is not an
end all, but it serves its purposes. I think of form the same way.
There are alot of bad traditional schools out there. I think for the most
part its because traditional training methods don't emphasize understanding.
It's more of repetition till perfection. So a guy can have mastered an art
or even just a technique through constant drilling and self discovery, but
in the end have no idea how to communicate that to anyone else. So what do
they do? They drill their students just like they were drilled. And the
cycle goes on. But I don't think that every school is like that. Many have
turned once traditional arts into what is pretty much a combat science.
Boxing is very scientific. What I hear of BJJ it is the same as well.
Unfortunately, traditional arts are making their way much slower. But this
doesn't make the training techniques bad. Some of the techniques have not
been put under the same scrutiny as in other styles. I don't learn much
from the head instructor at my school because he tells me to do a drill,
corrects my form and that's it. So I can do the drill or I can do the form.
What does that do for me? Will it magically help me someday when I am in a
situation? I dunno. But when you put the form or drill together with our
beat sparring and continuous sparring training I start to see things.
Honestly, I don't like learning like that. One of the Junior instructors at
our school has a more clear understanding of the purposes of the drills. So
I can understand as I train, not at some moment of revelation much later
when by reflex I do the right thing. If I ever instruct I want to instruct
that way. I think most people critical of traditional arts and forms have
seen people like my head sifu and concluded that the such an art is
nonsense. Well, I would probably agree if that's all I saw too. Sadly
enough, most schools project exactly that image.
Thanks again for the reply
KM
Karl Migros
art? I am glad you responded because you're just the kind of person I was
aiming at with this post. Your arguments made no sense.
"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001102225244...@ng-co1.aol.com...
> >om: "Karl Migros" ka_m...@advancenet.co
>
> > But if they understood how one can
> >develop a technique through form, they would realize that they themselves
> >are practicing form. It's called SHADOW BOXING
>
> Ludicrous comparison shadow boxing is not a prearranged sequence.
You're right. Jab-Jab-Cross-Hook is not prearranged. It's a randomly
acheived combination that for some reason every boxer no matter how smart or
dumb they are seems to do. You're smart
>
> >
> >Jab-Jab-Cross-Hook
> >
> >Practiced that one alot I bet. Now, how is this set sequence of moves
any
> >different than a small 4 step pattern in a form?
>
> In boxing punches are thrown correctly.
Unless you have a bad boxer who exposes himself too much... doesn't cover
well... etc... Oh, I forgot, all boxers have perfect form. If someone has
bad form, it doesn't mean the form is bad. And how are boxing
punches"correct"? The way you tuck your head or cover when you punch is
"correct" if you assume that the opponent has a pair of 12 or 16 oz gloves
on. What happens without gloves? What happens to your hand if you've never
ever trained without a glove and you try some of these "correct" punches? I
guess I'm asking what you mean by correct...
> >As you progress, you
> >practice different, more complicated combos that emphasize more footwork
and
> >more advanced concepts like drawing, feinting or leading. Doesn't this
> >sound like form?
>
> No.
Why not? Because you say so? Are you a JKD practitioner or a Boxer? Did
you start off with all the techniques on the first day and in a continuous
and meaningful manner for 10 2 minute rounds? I figure that forms are
pretty much nothing (other than exercise or a teaching tool) for a master
because they don't serve any purpose anymore. The master understands the
concepts already. Mixing it up into shadow boxing is ok, but it loses
somewhat of the purpose of the form. If you want to show someone something
through form, how do you do that if everything is random? You set down a
prearranged sequence. Maybe like Jab-Jab Cross-Hook.
For someone starting out or unfamiliar with a technique, forms are one of
the first steps towards understanding a concept. For some it is the only
step. That's stupid. They'll never properly understand. But that doesn't
mean that the form is stupid. A boxer can't just shadow box all his life
and expect to jump into a prize fight. This isn't a failing of shadow
boxing, it's a failing of their overall training.
> >Forms are the traditional equivalent of
> >Shadow Boxing.
>
> And vastly inferior.
I agree that Shadow Boxing has some advantages (we shadow box rounds at our
school too), but I believe that I have shown in previous the post that the
similarities are abundant despite the fact that you use the robust argument
of "No."
> >
> >Well, let me know what you guys think.
>
> I think my chicken wings are ready.
>
> Gi
I bet your understanding of chicken wings is better than you understand of
fighting.
Orbs
What I don't understand about those JKD people who say that is that
Bruce was from a traditional Chinese M.A.,training in the traditional way
for the most part so he certainly did forms. So that was his background for
developing a fighting method, he didn't just borrow bits and pieces he
had a solid background in a set system that he was quite acomplished
at before he developed all this stuff.
Love Orbs
Gichoke
>Date: 11/3/00 10:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <8tv16t$obv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>Karl,
>
>I can only assume by your response that you are not familiar with
>Gichoke.
Karl an I go way back.
> Gichoke is a troll...
No,But co-incidently I do regenerate 3 hit points a round.
> He only posts when he thinks he can
>force a reaction.
Why bother posting if you're gonna say "I agree with you"?
It doesn't really create a very good debate does it?
> Basically, he just likes starting arguments.
Unless the guy is smarter than me.
An Einsteins dead, so I'm all set.
> I
>would suggest that you either ignore him, or just take his posts for
>what they really are - a joke
An take Vengers posts for what they are.
An flush 'em.
Gi
Gichoke
>
>JKD suffers just as much from "Well, my Sifu said so" disease as any
>other art.
I disagree.JKD is far more opn minded.My JKD sifu recommended I crosstrain at a
boxing gym an a BJJ dojo.
Gi
Jeff
Are you sure he said CROSStrain? He probably just wanted to get rid of you.
-jeff
Gichoke
>From: "Jeff" jc...@airmail.net
>Date: 11/4/00 6:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:
><1FB3E1BE27A56ACB.9506A6CA...@lp.airnews.net>
Actually ,in a way you're right, he told me he had nothing else left to show
me, that I should go train with Pro-boxers and a BJJ blackbelt.
He said all he could do was get me good, and that I would have to train under
specialists to get great.I was impressed that he'd say that, given that I was
one of only a few guys paying him 100 bucks a month.It was very honest of him.
Gi
veng...@my-deja.com
>Actually ,in a way you're right, he told me he had nothing else left
>to show me, that I should go train with Pro-boxers and a BJJ blackbelt.
>He said all he could do was get me good, and that I would have to
>train under specialists to get great.I was impressed that he'd say
>that, given that I was one of only a few guys paying him 100 bucks a
>month.It was very honest of him. Gi
What he actually said was that it would be great if you trained with
someone else.
Jeff
> >ct: Re: Purpose of forms
> >From: "Jeff" jc...@airmail.net
> >Date: 11/4/00 6:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id:
> ><1FB3E1BE27A56ACB.9506A6CA...@lp.airnews.net>
> >
> >
> >"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
crosstrain
> >at a
> >> boxing gym an a BJJ dojo.
> >>
> >> Gi
> >
> >Are you sure he said CROSStrain? He probably just wanted to get rid of
you.
>
> Actually ,in a way you're right, he told me he had nothing else left to
show
> me, that I should go train with Pro-boxers and a BJJ blackbelt.
> He said all he could do was get me good, and that I would have to train
under
> specialists to get great.I was impressed that he'd say that, given that I
was
> one of only a few guys paying him 100 bucks a month.It was very honest of
him.
> Gi
Dam, you must be worse in real life than you are here. For a hundred a
month i think I'd put up with a lot. BTW, have either of the other two guys
ever told you what it was they did to the JKD instructor that pissed him off
so much?
ShadowJack
on kata ,this might be of interest to you.
"Karate history lesson."
long, long ago in a far away place called Okinawa, Lived a man,
(Ankoh Itosu - Shorin ryu) Introduced Karate to the Okinawan
school curriculum. At the insistence of his peers he had to remove
certain extremely dangerous techniques (neck breaks / throat rips etc.)
from Karate. It wouldn't do to have deadly dangerous school children
running around, would it now. He allegedly devised a set of beginners
katas called Pinan from a much older Chinese kata called Channan or
Kusanku (nobody really knows.) split the original kata up into five segments
and sanatised them. Also he ripped the heart of karate out namely Tuite
(grappling)
and kyusho Jitsu (pressure point striking.) To prevent joint damage to the
childrens limbs he changed the ryukyu method of punching 3 quater twist
diagonal punch
to the Karate punch we all know and love today (full twist horizontal
punch.)
The reason why? If you get a book on anatomy and look at the human
body,you'll find that the diagonal punch penetrates cavity spaces much
better than the
full corkscrew punch, spec with Ippon ken. The kime added at the end of the
technique was
to prevent over extension of the limbs and to prevent damage, the older
method involved
snapping punches etc. certain strikes were disguised as blocks age uke, ude
uke and gedan
barai etc.
So what you are left with is a watered down version of the original deadly
dangerous Karate.
One of Itosu's students Gichin Funakoshi (GF) introduced this P.E Karate to
Japan and at this time it was probably still an extremely dangerous M.A.
After a few years
Karate - Do (as he now Called it) took off big style, The problem Kata, It
proved to
difficult for the Japs to grasp so yet again Kata was dumbed down and
sanitised. Funakoshi Died
shotokan split into various factions competion kumite was introduced and the
rest is the sorry mess we're left
with today.
Ankoh Itosu legacy had grown beyond his wildest dreams, world wide, and
touched karate of all styles, Tae Kwon Do and it's various styles as well.
The
problem nobody told the Japs that what they were taught was P.E Karate who
in turn exported
it world wide.So if you practice a style of karate with Do behind it your
being
taught Children's Karate.
Blocks. take Jodan Age Uke for example allright in the dojo, practically
useless on the street or is it? Ever wondered about the reaction hand that's
thrust out prior to
the block when your doing your basics? Could it just be programmed startle
reflex to an incoming
blow that intercepts it as your fingers rake his eyes as you pull back your
reaction hand
(Hikite) to your hip? pulling his hair /ear /arm with it as you unleash a
potent wan strike to his throat/ elbow
etc.
Ude uke, Think more in the way of wrist disengagement leading to a
shoulder lock or with your hikite pulling him off balance as you punch the
crap out of your attacker.
Gedan Barai, Groin strike? hook to the chin? simultaneous hook to the chin
and punch to solar plexus?hair grab and groin grab takedown? Elbow smash?
wrist disengagement? and on
and on.
Throws and take downs? look to your Kata, taikyoku shodan for example after
the three stepping punches, opps sorry two punches to the solar plexus
double him up
hikite grabs the back of his head as the punching hand grabs his chin
(doesn't have to be a
punch)perform kiai and pseudo punch, snap his neck exactly as in the Kata.
follow on and spin around into Gedan Barai? opponent grabs you hook him in
the head,grab his hair/ ear/ collar, strike and grab his nads, rotate and
exactly as
in the Kata and you'll find with his ass on the ground (yes it's a throw)
finish him with the Oie
tsuki.
So in a beginners Kata you've got two throws, two neck breaks and a
multitude of takedowns wrist locks, limb breaking techniques etc.
Pressure point fighting. All in your Kata, get a anatomy book or better
still take a Dillman Course.
Think of Karate (ESP Kata)as an onion, the more layers you peel away the
more unfolds before your eyes, you just need a good imagination, plenty of
study and you
need to rip those katas apart (Bunkai / oyo.) And put in the hours and
years.
This isn't meant to be a troll, I'm not interested in which karate style/
MA is the best, but
if you can teach me something I'm all ears :-)
If you do a Do form of Karate you'll probably need to cross train in a
grappling art i.e..Aiki-jitsu, some form of J'Jitsu.
Hope this helps you all.
Jack.
veng...@my-deja.com
most Karate actually is. Unfortunately, this watered down version is
what most people think Karate is all about. I've met some fairly high-
ranking "masters" who have no idea about the things you are talking
about...
The problem is exactly what you said... People were taught "P.E.
Karate" but were never told that it was watered down. These folks went
on to teach more people, who in turn went on to teach even more people -
all the time getting further and further from the truth.
Kevin
> Very good post... A lot of folks don't realize just how watered down
> most Karate actually is. Unfortunately, this watered down version is
> what most people think Karate is all about. I've met some fairly
> high-ranking "masters" who have no idea about the things you are
> talking about...
> The problem is exactly what you said... People were taught "P.E.
> Karate" but were never told that it was watered down. These folks
> went on to teach more people, who in turn went on to teach even more
> people - all the time getting further and further from the truth.
Hey Venger; do you enjoy 'irony'?
Stick 'taijiquan' in place of 'karate' and you'll see exactly the
same message you wouldn't believe from me regarding internal arts.
But I can see that you see yourself as a straight up guy, so please
consider taking another look.
Neat, eh?
:o)
Kevin
Badger
veng...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Very good post... A lot of folks don't realize just how watered down
> most Karate actually is. Unfortunately, this watered down version is
> what most people think Karate is all about. I've met some fairly
high-
> ranking "masters" who have no idea about the things you are talking
> about...
>
> The problem is exactly what you said... People were taught "P.E.
> Karate" but were never told that it was watered down. These folks
went
> on to teach more people, who in turn went on to teach even more people
-
> all the time getting further and further from the truth.
Always thought the whole Pinan kata thing was funny, myself. Here's a
bunch of kata developed for juniors to practice, and everybody is
holding them up as some great example of what one should practice. It
would be like watching Puzo walk by with a junior high school English
text book under his arm.
Badger
--
Shaolin Five Animals Kung Fu
& Filipino Martial Arts
http://www.cyberus.ca/~badger/
http://www.martialartsgala2000.com
ShadowJack
"Badger" <badger...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8u6l8g$dn2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Always thought the whole Pinan kata thing was funny, myself. Here's a
> bunch of kata developed for juniors to practice, and everybody is
> holding them up as some great example of what one should practice. It
> would be like watching Puzo walk by with a junior high school English
> text book under his arm.
>
The whole Pinan / Heian kata set are full of viciously devastating
offensive and counter offensive attacks, but they're only taught
mainly at beginners level, punch / kick bunkai and many karateka
never get to learn the Okuden (hidden meanings) of the katas.
Further more what Ankoh Itosu taught kid's was probably
not what he taught to his toudi / kempo students.
for example what's known in the Channan Kata (chaing An),
he replaced an explicit throat (Trachea)rip with the original Okinawan
Nukite
(spear hand, hand slightly bent, fingers formed so they form a spear point.)
In Heian Nidan (Pinan sho) after the two knife hand blocks (a whole hidden
art in it's self)
the left arm slaps down onto two point just under the elbow creases, on both
arms
(counter against a grab, ?)this causes the head to jerk forward (it opens up
the whole throat region)
and the nukite goes straight into the throat, end of opponent.
So when he taught children he dropped the nukite to chuden level and made
them straighten their fingers and hand and so was born the Karate do nukite.
what happens in effect now if you try and hit the gut with the Karate do
spear hand
it folds or jams the fingers, he blunted the weapons of Karate do.
What he probably taught his advanced / trusted students was probably similar
to the original Channan Kata, So after the left arm slap down to the arm/
arms.head
jerks forward instead of the nukite replace that with what was known as
tiger mouth
hand (Tora uchi,similar to an eagle claw) tiger hand smashes into the
thyroid and
crichoid bones, fingers now lock behind adams apple and as exactly as in the
kata you
now spin 270 degrees and throw the opponent to the ground (i've been
informed,in the
channan kata that the tiger hand follows to the ground) In my book that can
only mean
one thing and that means your driving his head into the ground and
compounding the
damage to the throat area, Crushed skull, death by strangulation on his own
blood,
what a horrible way to go.
Also the pinan / Heian Kata were devised for students so that they could
respond
against HAV attacks (habitual acts of violence) common or garden violent
assault.
The cryin shame is a lot of karateka will go through their training and
never learn
about tuite, pp fighting and such, but the cat is out of the bag now, and I
don't think
it will be to long now before Karateka will insist on Karate returning to
it's roots
I think you'll see a reintroduction of grappling and such.
Jack .
JimS
>
>Forgive this cross post, but on seeing the intelligent posts here
>on kata ,this might be of interest to you.
>"Karate history lesson."
>long, long ago in a far away place called Okinawa, Lived a man,
>(Ankoh Itosu - Shorin ryu) Introduced Karate to the Okinawan
>school curriculum. At the insistence of his peers he had to remove
>certain extremely dangerous techniques (neck breaks / throat rips etc.)
>from Karate. It wouldn't do to have deadly dangerous school children
>running around, would it now. He allegedly devised a set of beginners
>katas called Pinan from a much older Chinese kata called Channan or
>Kusanku (nobody really knows.) split the original kata up into five segments
>and sanatised them.
Well, well, another "karate" criticism, whaddaya know.
Normally I pass by these with little interest, but this one's so full of Black
Belt mag cliches that it amused me.
Many folks with some knowledge of karate history are familiar with the
circumstances surrounding Itosu's creation of five short pieces (Pinon/Heian series)
for use in gymnastics classes in Okinawa :-). Far from trying to be an extensive
catalog of "deadly secrets", these were actually snippets from more advanced kata
(mainly Kanku Dai and Bassai) for the purpose of giving kids some basic blocks and
strikes in an elementary format. When Funakoshi went to Japan he did much the same thing
with the Taikyoku series. There's not a lot of point strikes, ground grappling,
joint breaks and other Black Belt mag topical favorites in these, either :-).
In reality, this criticism is a stupid criticism. It's like taking a begining
algebra book, flipping through the pages, and slamming the book because somebody
didn't see partial differential equations in it. No shit, Sherlock.
There *are* breaks and throws even in the five Heian, BTW. We've talked about some of
the elbow breaks and parry-scoop-and-throws even here on RMA. If these are
"hidden" so much, how come everyone on RMA knows where they are except our friend
here? :-))).
>Also he ripped the heart of karate out namely Tuite
>(grappling)
>and kyusho Jitsu (pressure point striking.)
Itosu didn't "rip the heart" out of anything. He simple created something for
teaching in schools :-))). Ya know, it's a real shame he didn't have you guys
on RMA to consult on what the current fads are. He didn't read Inside Kungfu
magazine and George Dillman's books on point strikes, and so he didn't realize
every technique in a kata is supposed to be a "hidden" point strike and/or
joint break (even better if you combine both in the same technique- let's throw
everything in). LOL
> To prevent joint damage to the
>childrens limbs he changed the ryukyu method of punching 3 quater twist
>diagonal punch
>to the Karate punch we all know and love today (full twist horizontal
>punch.)
Completely wrong. The palm-down fist is found throughout Okinawan styles,
because it is also found in the parent arts back in Southern China.
In fact, it's so old they have drawings of it in centuries-old Shaolin
manuscripts :-). Every style of karate in the world today has both a vertical
and turned-down fist, bubba.
>The reason why? If you get a book on anatomy and look at the human
>body,you'll find that the diagonal punch penetrates cavity spaces much
>better than the
>full corkscrew punch, spec with Ippon ken. The kime added at the end of the
>technique was
>to prevent over extension of the limbs and to prevent damage, the older
>method involved
>snapping punches etc. certain strikes were disguised as blocks age uke, ude
>uke and gedan
>barai etc.
Ha Ha
Gee, we didn't know that... You sure can't find examples of that today, can ya,
snort snort... Try Heian #1, ace. You know- the one that doesn't have anything
in it. Upper block is actually a break.
I think you must have had about a month of karate classes with some of these
criticisms. Either that, or you took Dillman's "My Take on Karate" brainwashing
seminar, which is about the same thing.
> So what you are left with is a watered down version of the original deadly
>dangerous Karate.
No, I'm left with a stupid post by a karate wonnabe, who obviously gets his material
from the current supermarket mags and sits on the fence freshly painted with "fad"
written on it.
> One of Itosu's students Gichin Funakoshi (GF) introduced this P.E Karate to
>Japan and at this time it was probably still an extremely dangerous M.A.
>After a few years
>Karate - Do (as he now Called it) took off big style, The problem Kata, It
>proved to
>difficult for the Japs to grasp so yet again Kata was dumbed down and
>sanitised. Funakoshi Died
>shotokan split into various factions competion kumite was introduced and the
>rest is the sorry mess we're left
>with today.
*Every* style of karate has political problems and factions. Don't think your
Okinawan favorites are any different. Where there's people, there's always
too many chiefs and not enough indians. Whaddaya think Dillman has done over
the years? You think anybody gets along with and respects him? Guess again.
Your comments on Shotokan "dumbing down" kata bacause they were "too difficult
for the Japs to grasp" is not only racist, it's wrong. Any time an art passes
from one country to another, it's going to go through some modifications.
In the case of Shotokan, changes were made in the height of stances, manner of
delivery of some techniques and so on to reflect Shotokan biases in these areas,
but the kata are very recognizable. There's no "dumbing down" going on; the same
apps are there as in the Okinawan counterparts. It's up to the teacher to bring
out what they want.
[snip]
>So in a beginners Kata you've got two throws, two neck breaks and a
>multitude of takedowns wrist locks, limb breaking techniques etc.
>Pressure point fighting. All in your Kata, get a anatomy book or better
>still take a Dillman Course.
As for your hero Dillman himself, it's a common criticism in karate circles
that Dillman is little more than a showman. Many of us (me included) don't
think his technical skills are very high.
These criticisms go both ways. Japanese styles often don't get much into the
fads as much as other styles, but they'll turn right around and ask the fad
styles how their basic techniques are doing. If the basics aren't any good,
the legs are weak and the techniques couldn't rip a paper sack, who cares
about how many points you know about?
Also, Dillman showing you guys how to hit a point while you're standing there
in a seminar is a bit different than you point wonnabes trying this stuff against
a moving, non-cooperative opponent.
Don't believe me? You and I need to do some sparring.
>Think of Karate (ESP Kata)as an onion, the more layers you peel away the
>more unfolds before your eyes, you just need a good imagination, plenty of
>study and you
>need to rip those katas apart (Bunkai / oyo.) And put in the hours and
>years.
Think of you as a Dillman fan, having attended a seminar or two and now able
to expound as an expert on karate weaknesses as Dillman taught you.
You can get away with this stuff on a generic group like RMA because the
level of exposure to any kind of legit karate is extremely small, but if
you try the same criticisms in a group with knowledgeable karateka, you're
not going very far.
JS
Don Wagner
>Also, Dillman showing you guys how to hit a point while you're standing there
>in a seminar is a bit different than you point wonnabes trying this stuff against
>a moving, non-cooperative opponent.
>Don't believe me? You and I need to do some sparring.
Yeah, there is that factor to contend with, but activating points in
grappling (standing and ground) is much easier. I'm in agreement on
most of the rest but I do think that Dillman offers a decent platform
to start from. You just have to be aware of the source and goal of
the $eminar.
;-)
--Don--
Let me show you how the guards used to do it...
JimS
>
>Very good post... A lot of folks don't realize just how watered down
>most Karate actually is. Unfortunately, this watered down version is
>what most people think Karate is all about. I've met some fairly high-
>ranking "masters" who have no idea about the things you are talking
>about...
All these comments show me is that many of you guys are playing
at karate and karate history.
It's common knowledge in genuine martial circles (i.e.,outside rec.martial-arts)
that the healing arts are part of the curriculum in asian countries.
These are know collectively as "kappo" in Japanese, and include a lot
of anatomical manipulative techniques from classical Japanese ryu (which
originally came from traditonal Chinese medicine (TCM)).
The point is, these things are part of the backdrop of most asian cultures,
even though some of it may not be taught
much to the white guys who took karate in the States.
The guy you guys agree with so much, "Shadowjack" (a nice legit name), tells
us the "Japs" are too ignorant to know this stuff, and racial ignorance like
this should be addressed. The truth actually is, point-manipulation is common knowledge
in Japanese martial circles, and in fact, judges in tourneys are expected
to have some expertise in traditional kappo methods for when contestants get injuries.
Anybody who has had kappo applied to them (I have, BTW) knows this stuff can be
sophisticated and it works. I've had blood gushing from my nose (from a sparring
clash) instantly stopped by a few taps in the right spot, fer instance.
These traditional techniques make Dillman's knowledge, in comparison, look severely limited.
You guys are forgetting this stuff is an asian specialty :-).
>The problem is exactly what you said... People were taught "P.E.
>Karate" but were never told that it was watered down. These folks went
>on to teach more people, who in turn went on to teach even more people -
> all the time getting further and further from the truth.
Well, I see a different problem. I see a couple folks on RMA who took a couple
seminars on Dillman's stuff and think they're suddenly karate historians :-)))).
It ain't so. Some of you guys really need to bone up on the cultures you're
trying to criticize. Using a colorful analogy I'm fond of, it's like sticking
a blinking neon light on your butt with the text, "I know nothing about these
cultures".
Some of these criticisms are naive.
JS
veng...@my-deja.com
> Very good post... A lot of folks don't realize just how watered down
> most Karate actually is. Unfortunately, this watered down version is
>> what most people think Karate is all about. I've met some fairly
>> talking about...
>> The problem is exactly what you said... People were taught "P.E.
>> Karate" but were never told that it was watered down. These folks
>> went on to teach more people, who in turn went on to teach even more
>> people - all the time getting further and further from the truth.
>Hey Venger; do you enjoy 'irony'?
>Stick 'taijiquan' in place of 'karate' and you'll see exactly the same
>message you wouldn't believe from me regarding internal arts. But I
>can see that you see yourself as a straight up guy, so please consider
>taking another look.
Actually, Kevin, maybe you should take a better look at that
discussion. I realize that the internal arts are misunderstood by most
people. I just don't think they're as exclusive as you seem to think
they are. There is a difference between saying that an art has much
deeper levels to it than are commonly understood, and saying that your
art is so vastly different that nothing else can be trained along side
of it. That is the difference between my argument about Karate and
your argument about Tai Chi.
In any event, I left that discussion because, quite frankly, I got
tired of the hostility and childish bickering... And now I'm leaving
it again.
Peace.
JimS
>
>Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu (JimS) wrote:
>>Also, Dillman showing you guys how to hit a point while you're standing there
>>in a seminar is a bit different than you point wonnabes trying this stuff against
>>a moving, non-cooperative opponent.
>>Don't believe me? You and I need to do some sparring.
>
>grappling (standing and ground) is much easier. I'm in agreement on
>most of the rest but I do think that Dillman offers a decent platform
>to start from. You just have to be aware of the source and goal of
>the $eminar.
>;-)
>--Don--
No problemo, Don.
I'm wondering where some of these guys got the idea that point knowledge
is some long-lost "secret". It's a fairly damning commentary on their knowledge
of asian cultures- i.e., the earlier comment on the "Japs not able
to grasp it". Chinese medical theory is widespread across Asia; always has been.
The thing is, these kinds of quasi-criticisms appear often in the mags so the
writers aren't very hip. I'm secretly wondering if Dillman is guilty of fostering
stereotypes himself, since we're getting a lot of spiel lately that sounds like
stuff coming from Dillman.
I'm not really knocking the guy' I'm sure I could learn some useful stuff at
a seminar of his myself. I just don't appreciate it when he goes off on tangents
about these things being "secrets" only he and a select few others teach :-).
It's the show-man side of Dillman I object to.
JS
veng...@my-deja.com
>All these comments show me is that many of you guys are playing
>at karate and karate history.
Karate and Karate history go very well together.
>It's common knowledge in genuine martial circles (i.e.,outside
>rec.martial-arts) that the healing arts are part of the curriculum in
>asian countries. These are know collectively as "kappo" in Japanese,
>and include a lot of anatomical manipulative techniques from classical
>Japanese ryu (which originally came from traditonal Chinese
>medicine(TCM)).
Yes, this should be well known to any serious martial artist, and it is
a large part of traditional Okinawan Karate.
>The point is, these things are part of the backdrop of most asian
>cultures, even though some of it may not be taught
>much to the white guys who took karate in the States.
Which means that us white guys need to get off our butts and find
someone who DOES teach these things, if we'd like to know the martial
arts as completely as possible.
>The guy you guys agree with so much, "Shadowjack" (a nice legit name),
>tells us the "Japs" are too ignorant to know this stuff, and racial
>ignorance like this should be addressed.
You're right. I didn't say anything, and perhaps I should have. I
didn't appreciate the "Japs" comments either. However, the fact that
this person is a racist does not invalidate an otherwise good post -
although it does lower his credibility and respectability.
>The truth actually is, point-manipulation is common knowledge in
>Japanese martial circles, and in fact, judges in tourneys are expected
>to have some expertise in traditional kappo methods for when
>contestants get injuries. Anybody who has had kappo applied to them (I
>have, BTW) knows this stuff can be sophisticated and it works.
You are absolutely right. In fact, the Japanese had an enormous
positive influence on Okinawan Karate. A lot of people blame the
Japanese for "watering down" Karate, which in a way is justifiable
because the Japanese did have a lot to do with it being made into a
more civil art, but they do not realize that the Japanese were also
responsible for making the original thing a complete martial art.
Also, it should be noted that the "watering down" process started in
Okinawa.
>I've had blood gushing from my nose (from a sparring clash) instantly
>stopped by a few taps in the right spot, fer instance.
You to? :)
>These traditional techniques make Dillman's knowledge, in comparison,
>look severely limited. You guys are forgetting this stuff is an asian
>specialty :-).
Please don't bring Dillman into this... This was a friendly discussion!
In all seriousness, I have little interest in Dillman. I think he's
got some good ideas - unfortunately I don't think they're actually HIS
ideas and I don't think he really understands them. Dillman is really
good at impressing beginners.
Once again, I did think that Shadowjack's post was a good one, but that
doesn't mean I agree with EVERYTHING that he said.
>Well, I see a different problem. I see a couple folks on RMA who took
>a couple seminars on Dillman's stuff and think they're suddenly karate
>historians :-)))).
I've been studying Karate for well over twelve years, and Karate
history for about the same length of time. I've been to two Dillman
seminars, and I didn't see anything that I hadn't seen done better
somewhere else. His knowledge of Karate history is better than most,
but then again "most" is pretty weak in this case. I think a lot of
his history has been altered to his advantage.
>It ain't so. Some of you guys really need to bone up on the cultures
>you're trying to criticize. Using a colorful analogy I'm fond of, it's
>like sticking a blinking neon light on your butt with the text, "I
>know nothing about these cultures".
I don't recall criticizing any culture. If something I said gave you
that impression, please point it out to me. If you're assuming that I
agree with the statements made about Japan, you are mistaken.
>Some of these criticisms are naive.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Don Wagner
>I'm wondering where some of these guys got the idea that point knowledge
>is some long-lost "secret".
Easy. They were told it was a secret and they believed it without
looking for confirmation of the "fact". Typical MA rhetoric for
keeping the dream alive. It's no different then the schools preaching
better martial arts through not fighting or better living through
hitting others.
>It's the show-man side of Dillman I object to.
Lets see you break a gazzillion pounds of ice on "Thats Incredible",
buddy-boy.
Michael E. Peter
>
>> Very good post... A lot of folks don't realize just how watered down
>> most Karate actually is. Unfortunately, this watered down version is
>>> what most people think Karate is all about. I've met some fairly
>>> high-ranking "masters" who have no idea about the things you are
>>> talking about...
>>> The problem is exactly what you said... People were taught "P.E.
>>> Karate" but were never told that it was watered down. These folks
>>> went on to teach more people, who in turn went on to teach even more
>>> people - all the time getting further and further from the truth.
>
>>Hey Venger; do you enjoy 'irony'?
>
>>Stick 'taijiquan' in place of 'karate' and you'll see exactly the same
>>message you wouldn't believe from me regarding internal arts. But I
>>can see that you see yourself as a straight up guy, so please consider
>>taking another look.
>
>Actually, Kevin, maybe you should take a better look at that
>discussion. I realize that the internal arts are misunderstood by most
>people. I just don't think they're as exclusive as you seem to think
>they are. There is a difference between saying that an art has much
>deeper levels to it than are commonly understood, and saying that your
>art is so vastly different that nothing else can be trained along side
>of it. That is the difference between my argument about Karate and
>your argument about Tai Chi.
>
I think what Kevin is proposing is possible, based on my
own training in Tang Soo Do/TKD and participating in a
Mike Sigman seminar. There were some specific mechanics
that seemed to be at cross purposes. Additionally, I
would make a a similar statement about wing chun and
<insert other empty hand system>: the principles
and mechanics of the system as a whole cannot be
fully expressed unless you are solely doing wing chun.
Anything else, and many things in the system are
compromised. Not that a person won't see benefit, just
that the person won't receive the primary benefits of the
system.
There are probably other systems for which this is
true as well. Tai Chi is probably the best example.
Just thinking out loud, since you are opting out of this
one.
Mike
AustinWT/BostonWT
www.austinwt.com
www.austinwt.com/boston
JimS
[snipped]
>>The point is, these things are part of the backdrop of most asian
>>cultures, even though some of it may not be taught
>>much to the white guys who took karate in the States.
>
>Which means that us white guys need to get off our butts and find
>someone who DOES teach these things, if we'd like to know the martial
>arts as completely as possible.
I'd agree with you, up to a point.
Point-striking, breaks and so on are always good to know, but the bottom
line- one usually emphasized by the Japanese-stylists- is the strength
of basic technique. There's plenty of folks out there who attend
seminars and so forth who really haven't gotten their basics down,
would you agree? I think learning a few striking points or
whatnot but not having the basic ability to punch and kick with any
power or speed is a dubious achievement. I'm more concerned here with
the typical seminar-goers than the long-time students in a dojo, of
course.
>>The guy you guys agree with so much, "Shadowjack" (a nice legit name),
>>tells us the "Japs" are too ignorant to know this stuff, and racial
>>ignorance like this should be addressed.
>
>You're right. I didn't say anything, and perhaps I should have. I
>didn't appreciate the "Japs" comments either. However, the fact that
>this person is a racist does not invalidate an otherwise good post -
>although it does lower his credibility and respectability.
Our mileage varies on that one. I don't think he said much that one
couldn't find in the last couple issues of the store mags :-).
I see this kind of thing routinely, I don't know about you.
[snipped]
>I've been studying Karate for well over twelve years, and Karate
>history for about the same length of time. I've been to two Dillman
>seminars, and I didn't see anything that I hadn't seen done better
>somewhere else. His knowledge of Karate history is better than most,
>but then again "most" is pretty weak in this case. I think a lot of
>his history has been altered to his advantage.
Well, you've been to two, I've been to zero, so I defer to your's and Don's
comments on his material.
JS
ShadowJack
"JimS" <Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu> wrote in message
news:8u92iq$ppi$1...@Crestone.UCHSC.edu...Snip
Hi Jim,
I'm laughing my goddamn ass of at you!
Wake up and smell the coffee,
Racism...............????
quote from a review of Tote Jitsu
"It's an interesting read in that Funakoshi's attitude toward
Karate and the human race in general are much harsher and
in keeping with the arrogance and bigotry of pre- W.W.II Japan.
In this book, there is no softness about him.Karate is
a tool through which he plans to train conquered Asians
(and Americans?) how to act like civilised people- or rather -
good Japanese citizens. He's full of piss and vigour, and he's ready to kick
a little ass to get his message across:Karate is good for you.
Source Shotokan Planet
http://www.24fightingchickens.com
In Funakoshi's own words "Karate Do My way of life"
"Some [flowery Kata!!} simply did not fit into Japanese
martial arts culture."
Wasn't Funakoshi responsible for removing all reference to Karate
being Chinese based? Kara= Tang to Kara=Empty?
Karate do - Karate Jitsu
Yasuhiro Konishi 'Karate & his life' by Kouzo kaku p.12 Pat Mcarthy
Contemporary opinion on Funakoshi's Karate during the 1920's
"Application techniques" were "neither clearly defined nor refined"
and that: "after analysis of the forms was made....It lacked precise
theory which could respond to the questions".
ibid p.g14
Master choki motbu.
"an imposter" he only "imitated the elegant portion" of what had
been developed by the two teachers Yazutsune Azato Yazutsune Itosu.
Going on to say: "he demonstrates wrong toute that looks like the truth!"
Okinawan Karate. Mark Bishop Page 88 to 89
"Itosu simplified Matsumura's Kata Naihanchi, developed the Chinese
corkscrew punch to it's present form etc.
p.89
"In April 1901 Itosu introduced Karate to the the ShuriJinjo Elemenatary
school as part of physical training curriculum. But first, Nakama told me,
Karate was considered to be too risky for young children, so Itosu removed
the dangerous techniques and simplified his other Katas and sparring into
mostly punch and block techniques."
p.94 Interview with Miyahira.
The basic forms on the Japanese mainland have varied from the
Okinawan forms to such an extent that he considers the punches,
blocks and kicks to be virtually ineffective
p.100
"Ankoh Itosu had intended that his corkscrew punch be used with
fore knuckle extended in a foreknuckle strike ; but when using it
,instead of twisting the whole way, it should strike in a diagonal position.
question. If the Karate full corkscrew is so effective why did Itosu
modify and change the old ryukyu method of punch from the old chinese
corkscrew to the modern day variant we got now?
I not saying that's not effective, What I'm saying is that's not as
effective
as it should be.Don't take my word for it how about Shigeru Egami
"Heart of Karate Do"
page 72 -78
Devotes a whole chapter to why the modern method of punching
is ineffective and he seeked to return to the old way of punching.
quote:
" What astonished me was that even when I practiced with the greatest of
earnestness and with all my might, my blows and kicks were not effective.
The shock of this discovery led me to entertain doubts about the Karate
blow,
which was said to be capable of killing even three or five years
afterwards."
Even Egami could see the difference between Karate Do and Karate Jitsu
p.9-10
Karate-Jitsu or Karate Do? The distinction between the two must clearly
grasped.
Karate-Jutsu must be regarded as nothing more than a technique for homicide
and
that, most emphatically, isn't the objective of Karate-do.
Kata being simplified ?
look at Aragaki Seisan as opposed to Hangetsu (from which it was developed)
look at Matsumura Kusanku as opposed to Kanku Dai-sho
Bassai as opposed to Bassai Dai-Sho
Chinto as opposed Gankaku
Wanshu as opposed to Enpi.
the list goes on.
So Katas haven't been simplified have they.
So Jim, next time you train under a Japanese Sensei ask him the bunkai
for a certain technique in a Kata, and see what answer he gives you!
Bet it'll be along the lines of punchie / kickie type bunkai - Don't ask
questions
train harder type answer.
So keep paying your hard earned money to your Karate organisation where they
may someday admit to you That they just don't know the answers. While they
keep spoon feeding you some B/S about Perfection of character, while they
robbing you blind, and then start to kick the crap out of you.
See no quotes from Black Belt, all answers can be cross referenced
Karate Wannabe - Twenty years in Shotokan (J.K.A) Does that qualify
me as a wannabe.
Just shot your argument down with cold logic Jim.
Regards oh blind one.
Jack.
KL
but for the most part he just seems to captilize on the idiotic things
people say. Most of GiChoke's comments are either A) pretty much on target
or B) Funny. Either way he's the best free enterainment your going to get on
RMA and it will be a sad day when he gets bored of this newsgroup.
<veng...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8tv16t$obv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Karl,
>
> I can only assume by your response that you are not familiar with
> Gichoke. Gichoke is a troll... He only posts when he thinks he can
> force a reaction. Basically, he just likes starting arguments. I
> would suggest that you either ignore him, or just take his posts for
> what they really are - a joke.
Mark C.
"Karl Migros" <ka_m...@advancenet.com> wrote:
> I hear alot about how practicing forms are useless. I see how there
are
> ways that the intent of forms can be lost if it is approached in an
> unthinking way. BUT if the proper understanding is there, I don't
find them
> useless at all. I hear this stuff all the time from JKD people. I am
> wondering what they know about form (why they think people in
traditional
> arts practice them), and why they think (specifically please) that it
is a
> waste of time. For the most part I think JKD guys are just spouting
out
> what their instructors tell them, but I may be wrong, so I want to see
why
> all you JKD people say what you say ( because most non JKD people
probably
> agree that it does sound like rhetoric).
>
> Please understand that I'm not attacking JKD or any of it's principles
or
> Bruce Lee or anything. I just want to know if there is understanding
there.
>
> After talking with a JKD guy, I begin to feel that while good ol Bruce
> figured alot out about traditional methods of training (and deserves
alot of
> respect for it), some of the guys farther down the tree have lost
sight (or
> never had a clue) about what the problems were with traditional
> styles/methods because they have NO exposure. So they say their stuff
and
> it sounds really hollow, or a merely a quote that anyone can make if
they
> read the Tao of Jeet Kun Do. Anyway, if some JKD guys can give me an
idea
> of their understanding of forms and their problems with them, I can
put my
> mind at ease.
>
> KM
>
>
Here is my view on forms, and yes I have learned many of them over the
years. To tell you the truth I only remember one of them from beginning
to end. The others I only remember the first few movements and the very
end. If you are going to be an instructor, you will need to know them in
order to teach it to others. It is not my goal in life to be an
instructor, so here I am.
They are not bad. Most people can tell the difference between form and
fighting. My problem with it is when I waste an entire class hour or
personal time on learning forms. This can take many hours, which I
personally do not have (to focus on forms). Most of the time the actual
movement you do in the form isn't anything like you do in sparring or
fighting. They are mind/body coordination exercises. They teach you to
be aware of your body and it's positions, etc. But then again, so do
other realistic drills and training.
Basically, to quote another great artist, "learn it, then forget it" --
Charlie Parker
--
Mark C.
http://www.webFreaks.com/~markc
Gichoke
>Date: 11/7/00 3:26 PM P
>
>
>GiChoke does seem to like to bait people into threads he can slam them on,
>but for the most part he just seems to captilize on the idiotic things
>people say.
I only like to drill the guys that really believe that Karate an Kung Fu types
can cpmare to NHB fighters, Boxers and the like.
But most of the guys that will argue that kind of crap know full well that it
is bullshit.
Those guys are actually trolling me.
To me a troll is someone that says untrue things to get a reaction.I say true
stuff.That ain't really trolling.
>Most of GiChoke's comments are either A) pretty much on target
>or B) Funny.
Or ideally
C) Both of the above.
But I'll settle for
D) Lewd.
> Either way he's the best free enterainment your going to get on
>RMA
Don't you enjoy all those endless studies Ketho posts that are tenuously
connected to protective headgear?
What about when Carlo calls someone a "Sally"? Thats gotta be worth somethin.
And Trav had a good line once, about smashing down a door frame.
I actually stole it an used it elsewhere.
Mer stealing intellectual property from Trav.How ironic is that?
>and it will be a sad day when he gets bored of this newsgroup.
Yup, you'll me Gi when he's gone.
Gi
veng...@my-deja.com
>>Which means that us white guys need to get off our butts and find
>>someone who DOES teach these things, if we'd like to know the martial
>>arts as completely as possible.
>I'd agree with you, up to a point.
>Point-striking, breaks and so on are always good to know, but the
>bottom line- one usually emphasized by the Japanese-stylists- is the
>strength of basic technique.
Absolutely. The basics are definately the most important thing. In
fact, without a solid foundation in the basics, I don't think it's even
likely that one would be able to use point-striking effectively.
>There's plenty of folks out there who attend seminars and so forth who
>really haven't gotten their basics down, would you agree?
I agree completely. This is in fact one of the things that left me
less than impressed with the Dillman method. It seems that they rush
into point-striking with no real foundation in the basics. This is
unfortunate, because the basics are what allow you to accurately hit
the points you are trying to strike.
>I think learning a few striking points or
>whatnot but not having the basic ability to punch and kick with any
>power or speed is a dubious achievement.
Once again I agree. However, while the ability to strike with power
and speed is fundamental to the art of Karate, it is still not the
complete art. The problem, I think, is that a lot of people see Karate
combat as being nothing more than point-sparring with harder contact.
>I'm more concerned here with the typical seminar-goers than the long-
>time students in a dojo, of course.
I personally like seminars because they allow you to see aspects of the
art that you might not otherwise see. However, I don't think one can
really learn from just going to seminars. A seminar should suppliment
your training - give you something to think about.
>Our mileage varies on that one. I don't think he said much that one
>couldn't find in the last couple issues of the store mags :-).
>I see this kind of thing routinely, I don't know about you.
Well, I don't think he said anything groundbreaking if that's what you
mean. Frankly, I think most of this stuff SHOULD be common knowledge
among the Karate community. Unfortunately, there are many people who
never experience much of Karate beyond the basic striking. I think he
had some good information, even if it wasn't "new" to all of us.
>>I've been studying Karate for well over twelve years, and Karate
>>history for about the same length of time. I've been to two Dillman
>>seminars, and I didn't see anything that I hadn't seen done better
>>somewhere else. His knowledge of Karate history is better than most,
>>but then again "most" is pretty weak in this case. I think a lot of
>>his history has been altered to his advantage.
>Well, you've been to two, I've been to zero, so I defer to your's and
>Don's comments on his material.
He's not the worst I've seen, but he's certainly not the best. He did
have some good information.
JimS
> Hi Jim,
>I'm laughing my goddamn ass of at you!
Whatever floats your boat. Mad because you guys lost the colonies, are ya?
>Wake up and smell the coffee,
>Racism...............????
[snip quote from Rob Redmond's site]
I'm already familiar with Redmond's take on various topics, thank you.
What *you* should realize is that regardless of whether or not Funakoshi
displayed racist attitudes, we ain't talking here about Funakoshi.
Just saying he was racist doesn't do diddley squat to support your ideas
that Japanese don't know anything about point striking and so on.
In fact, you said they "weren't able to grasp it". That's a pretty amusing
comment about a culture more familiar with Chinese medical theory than
yours :-))).
>In Funakoshi's own words "Karate Do My way of life"
>"Some [flowery Kata!!} simply did not fit into Japanese
>martial arts culture."
>Wasn't Funakoshi responsible for removing all reference to Karate
>being Chinese based? Kara= Tang to Kara=Empty?
>Karate do - Karate Jitsu
Wrong conclusion. "T'ang hand" or "Kara hand" really makes no difference
as far as the kata and techniques still showing much of a southern
shaolin influence, regardless of the areas of Okinawa various kata came from.
You're not going to remove all the southern shaolin background on an art by simply
changing the name. The shaolin influence is easily seen in all Japanese styles of
karate, regardless of how far they've developed away from Okinawa.
>Yasuhiro Konishi 'Karate & his life' by Kouzo kaku p.12 Pat Mcarthy
>Contemporary opinion on Funakoshi's Karate during the 1920's
>"Application techniques" were "neither clearly defined nor refined"
>and that: "after analysis of the forms was made....It lacked precise
>theory which could respond to the questions".
>ibid p.g14
>Master choki motbu.
>"an imposter" he only "imitated the elegant portion" of what had
>been developed by the two teachers Yazutsune Azato Yazutsune Itosu.
>Going on to say: "he demonstrates wrong toute that looks like the truth!"
I'm not here to discuss what Funakoshi's comtemporaries thought of him.
It's a side road, not germane to the current look at your own assertions.
It's widely believed that Funakoshi was never Okinawa's best technical
rep anyway; he was chosen by other masters to be the best Japanese rep because
of his education and cultural smarts. Some of these other guys were great
karateka but let's face it, they were country bumpkins. If you're trying to
sell your art to a country already prejudiced against you, it makes good sense
to send the guy who is likely to make the best impression :-).
>Okinawan Karate. Mark Bishop Page 88 to 89
>"Itosu simplified Matsumura's Kata Naihanchi, developed the Chinese
>corkscrew punch to it's present form etc.
>p.89
> "In April 1901 Itosu introduced Karate to the the ShuriJinjo Elemenatary
>school as part of physical training curriculum. But first, Nakama told me,
>Karate was considered to be too risky for young children, so Itosu removed
>the dangerous techniques and simplified his other Katas and sparring into
>mostly punch and block techniques."
Exactly what I told you my last post. Your point?
Are you starting to feel a little stupid insisting the Heian series
is supposed to hide secret deadly techniques? Of course not! Why? Your
culture is based on fish and chips, that's why.
(required cultural dig now out of the way).
>p.94 Interview with Miyahira.
>The basic forms on the Japanese mainland have varied from the
>Okinawan forms to such an extent that he considers the punches,
>blocks and kicks to be virtually ineffective
>p.100
>"Ankoh Itosu had intended that his corkscrew punch be used with
>fore knuckle extended in a foreknuckle strike ; but when using it
>,instead of twisting the whole way, it should strike in a diagonal position.
That's a wonderful analysis. Personally, I think the above quote sucks rocks.
There's nothing wrong with a full twist into a palm-down fist, lemme tell ya.
I've used it quite often, and I know it works. Where's your chin? Lemme show
you why Miyahira is blowing smoke...
[kata name ranting snipped]
>So Katas haven't been simplified have they.
>So Jim, next time you train under a Japanese Sensei ask him the bunkai
>for a certain technique in a Kata, and see what answer he gives you!
>Bet it'll be along the lines of punchie / kickie type bunkai - Don't ask
>questions train harder type answer.
Yip. That's the Japanese way, and we're proud of it :-).
It produces some folks (not everybody, just some) who can really kick the
snot outta their more traditional counterparts, mickey-mousing around with acupunture
points and playing amateur bare-foot doctors :-))))).
>So keep paying your hard earned money to your Karate organisation where they
>may someday admit to you That they just don't know the answers. While they
>keep spoon feeding you some B/S about Perfection of character, while they
>robbing you blind, and then start to kick the crap out of you.
>See no quotes from Black Belt, all answers can be cross referenced
>Karate Wannabe - Twenty years in Shotokan (J.K.A) Does that qualify
>me as a wannabe. Just shot your argument down with cold logic Jim.
>Regards oh blind one.
>Jack.
Sounds like you've been hanging around Redmond too long.
Go look at the karate over on Okinawa some time, and tell me if the stuff
you observe is superior techique-wise to JKA.
I'm awaitin' here with brethless anticipation for your assessements.
JS
veng...@my-deja.com
attitude. Particularly the racist bullshit.
>It's an interesting read in that Funakoshi's attitude toward Karate
>and the human race in general are much harsher and
>in keeping with the arrogance and bigotry of pre- W.W.II Japan.
>In this book, there is no softness about him.Karate is
>a tool through which he plans to train conquered Asians
>(and Americans?) how to act like civilised people- or rather -
>good Japanese citizens. He's full of piss and vigour, and he's ready
>to kick a little ass to get his message across:Karate is good for you.
The point was to make Karate more accessable to the general
population. It was felt that Karate would be a wonderful addition to
physical education, but they did not want young students having the
ability to seriously hurt one another. I see nothing wrong with this
until people start mistaking the watered-down version for the real
thing.
>Wasn't Funakoshi responsible for removing all reference to Karate
>being Chinese based? Kara= Tang to Kara=Empty?
>Karate do - Karate Jitsu
Actually, no. At least not by himself. It was felt by many Okinawan
masters that a reference to China would not go over well with many
Japanese and Okinawan people. Funakoshi made the suggestion, but it
was not his decision alone.
>>Karate-Jitsu or Karate Do? The distinction between the two must
>>clearly grasped. Karate-Jutsu must be regarded as nothing more than
>>a technique for homicide and that, most emphatically, isn't the
>>objective of Karate-do.
Changing the name of something does not change its purpose or value.
>So Jim, next time you train under a Japanese Sensei ask him the bunkai
>for a certain technique in a Kata, and see what answer he gives you!
>Bet it'll be along the lines of punchie / kickie type bunkai -
Not always. I've seen some damn good Tuite in Japanese schools.
>Don't ask questions train harder type answer.
I love that answer... And I'm an Okinawan stylist.
>So keep paying your hard earned money to your Karate organisation
>where they may someday admit to you That they just don't know the
>answers. While they keep spoon feeding you some B/S about Perfection
>of character, while they robbing you blind, and then start to kick the
>crap out of you.
Did you have a bad experience with a school? You sound a little bitter.
JimS
[snipped for brevity]
>>I think learning a few striking points or
>>whatnot but not having the basic ability to punch and kick with any
>>power or speed is a dubious achievement.
>
>Once again I agree. However, while the ability to strike with power
>and speed is fundamental to the art of Karate, it is still not the
>complete art. The problem, I think, is that a lot of people see Karate
>combat as being nothing more than point-sparring with harder contact.
Good counter-argument.
I agree with you on that.
Here's another relevant point I always felt strongly about- Japanese
styles don't traditionally do much with the kubudo/weapons aspect,
and I think that's a shame as well.
It's another part of that "completeness" issue that should be addressed.
>>I'm more concerned here with the typical seminar-goers than the long-
>>time students in a dojo, of course.
>
>I personally like seminars because they allow you to see aspects of the
>art that you might not otherwise see. However, I don't think one can
>really learn from just going to seminars. A seminar should suppliment
>your training - give you something to think about.
Absolutely. We're agreeing here even more than Al Gore and
Geo. Bush in debate #2 :-)
>>Well, you've been to two, I've been to zero, so I defer to your's and
>>Don's comments on his material.
>
>He's not the worst I've seen, but he's certainly not the best. He did
>have some good information.
Sounds like a level-headed assessment. Hey, do me a favor- don't let this
thread die soon. I'll be out of town a few days but I'd like to see some
discussion keep going when I get back. I've slammed "Jack the Ripper" a
bit in my last post, so I expect that to keep things cooking for awhile,
anyway :-)))..
JS
veng...@my-deja.com
>Exactly what I told you my last post. Your point?
>Are you starting to feel a little stupid insisting the Heian series is
>supposed to hide secret deadly techniques?
There are potentially deadly techniques in just about any kata,
although I wouldn't call any of them "secret" or even "hidden".
>Of course not! Why? Your culture is based on fish and chips, that's
>why. (required cultural dig now out of the way).
That was completely uncalled for. They also gave us Monty Python!
>>"Ankoh Itosu had intended that his corkscrew punch be used with
>>fore knuckle extended in a foreknuckle strike ; but when using it
>>,instead of twisting the whole way, it should strike in a diagonal
>>position.
>That's a wonderful analysis. Personally, I think the above quote
>sucks rocks. There's nothing wrong with a full twist into a palm-down
>fist, lemme tell ya. I've used it quite often, and I know it works.
>Where's your chin? Lemme show you why Miyahira is blowing smoke...
There are reasons to use either technique. I've heard arguments from
both sides. My argument is to use the one you like and start training
instead of arguing.
>>- Don't ask questions train harder type answer.
>Yip. That's the Japanese way, and we're proud of it :-).
Come on... I'm not Japanese and I tell students that all the time.
You Japanese can't take credit for EVERYTHING :)
>It produces some folks (not everybody, just some) who can really kick
>the snot outta their more traditional counterparts, mickey-mousing
>around with acupunture points and playing amateur bare-foot doctors :-
>))))).
I share the opinion that micky-mousing, be it traditional or eclectic,
is generally a bad training method.
>Go look at the karate over on Okinawa some time, and tell me if the
>stuff you observe is superior techique-wise to JKA.
I thought nationality didn't matter?
>I'm awaitin' here with brethless anticipation for your assessements.
I'm waiting to... But breathing.
ShadowJack
"JimS" <Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu> wrote in message
> Whatever floats your boat. Mad because you guys lost the colonies, are ya?
You Got me there :-))
> I'm already familiar with Redmond's take on various topics, thank you.
> What *you* should realize is that regardless of whether or not Funakoshi
> displayed racist attitudes, we ain't talking here about Funakoshi.
> Just saying he was racist doesn't do diddley squat to support your ideas
> that Japanese don't know anything about point striking and so on.
> In fact, you said they "weren't able to grasp it". That's a pretty
amusing
> comment about a culture more familiar with Chinese medical theory than
> yours :-))).
Did I say that the Japanese culture had no idea of point striking?
I thought the point I was trying to make was That the Japanese
were having difficulty in learning the original kata forms.
Funakoshi's words not mine. But that's beside the point
DID Funakoshi teach Bunkai, Kyusho Jitsu or Tuite for that matter?
Now Nakayama describes in "Best Karate" series the Tekki
Kata's as being tedious, not something that you would expect
from the chief instructor of the J.K.A!!!
Most people that I've spoken to seem to think that these kata's
contain some of the most effective in fighting techniques ever seen.
Either Funakoshi taught the Okuden meanings of kata or he didn't,
I think he didn't or the Shotokan Instructors know it and aren't
teaching it or more likely they just don't know.
> I'm not here to discuss what Funakoshi's comtemporaries thought of him.
> It's a side road, not germane to the current look at your own assertions.
> It's widely believed that Funakoshi was never Okinawa's best technical
> rep anyway; he was chosen by other masters to be the best Japanese rep
because
> of his education and cultural smarts. Some of these other guys were great
> karateka but let's face it, they were country bumpkins. If you're trying
to
> sell your art to a country already prejudiced against you, it makes good
sense
> to send the guy who is likely to make the best impression :-).
That's a very good point, Jim.
> Exactly what I told you my last post. Your point?
> Are you starting to feel a little stupid insisting the Heian series
> is supposed to hide secret deadly techniques? Of course not! Why? Your
> culture is based on fish and chips, that's why.
> (required cultural dig now out of the way).
That Was almost funny :-))
I think your really wrong though when it comes the Pinan / Heian
Kata's though, Leaving out Kyusho Jitsu, and barring the fact your
your're not going to stick to the label disease (punch is just a punch
-kick is just a kick-block is just a block) and we're using whack them and
stack them techniques.Barring the differences from Pinan to Heian.
If we look at Heian godan for instance say..... from kosa dachi / upper
level morote uke-------upper cut---jump-----lower level x block---
morote uke again. Now when you do jump in a kata it's supposed
to represent a throw, so in my opinion the whole sequence goes like this.
move up to Kosa Dachi protecting the groin, back fist to philtrum
while left hand grabs and controlls opponents right arm, duck down and
hit him in the groin with a wan strike (uppercut) he doubles up,you lift him
up
onto your shoulders and throw him head first into the ground, If that
doesn't
do the trick (as in the Kata knee drop in the groin / chest area) X block
strike to throat, more likely it's a choke. How much more deadly do you
want
Jim ?
> That's a wonderful analysis. Personally, I think the above quote sucks
rocks.
> There's nothing wrong with a full twist into a palm-down fist, lemme tell
ya.
> I've used it quite often, and I know it works. Where's your chin? Lemme
show
> you why Miyahira is blowing smoke...
Ah - ha but if you knew the 3/4 punch was much more effective than the
full
twist would you still be using the full twist. I've tried the the 3/4 on my
makiwara
as opposed to the full twist and I've got to admit- still prefer the full
twist.
As for my chin you got to hit it first :-)))
>
> Sounds like you've been hanging around Redmond too long.
> Go look at the karate over on Okinawa some time, and tell me if the stuff
> you observe is superior techique-wise to JKA.
Never met Redomnd, he comes over rather arrogant to me, but he's got some
valid points. I mean we've all got our reasons for training in Karate, and
If my first
post came over as racisist, I'm sorry it wasn't meant to be. However for the
Japanese
to represent Karate as total system of self defense, that's just a plain lie
"ultimate
method of self defence" that ring a bell? If that was true why are some many
Karateka
off learning grappling arts, Hell I do Aikido as well and it's opened a
whole new world
of kata apps for me. Heian Sandan...large circle move at the end of the Kata
very
similar to kokyu nage don't you think?
> I'm awaitin' here with brethless anticipation for your assessements.
> JS
Looking forward to round three Jim.
Jack.
veng...@my-deja.com
>I only like to drill the guys that really believe that Karate an Kung
>Fu types can cpmare to NHB fighters, Boxers and the like.
Yeah, I hate it too when people try to compare a self-defense art like
Karate or Kung Fu to silly sports like NHB, boxing, and the like.
veng...@my-deja.com
>Here's another relevant point I always felt strongly about- Japanese
>styles don't traditionally do much with the kubudo/weapons aspect, and
>I think that's a shame as well.
>It's another part of that "completeness" issue that should be
>addressed.
I really like weapons training, for a couple of reasons:
One, training with a weapon builds skills and attributes that are a bit
more difficult to train otherwise... For example, bo training will
teach you a great deal about generating power through body rotation, as
well as footwork and overall body positioning. Sai training builds
wrist and forearm strength and flexibility, as well as coordination.
It also teaches body positioning and avoidance (you can't afford to get
hit with a sai). Each weapon can teach very good attributes.
Two, weapons training can be useful in self-defense. While it's true
that you are not likely to be carrying a sai, kama, or bo around, you
can find things (sticks for example) that can be used in much the same
way.
Three, when you learn to use a weapon as an extension of yourself, it
just tends to make you more aware of your own movement and personal
space. This is hard to describe.
Finally, I think that weapons training serves as sort of a reminder
that what we are doing is not a game - it is potentially about life and
death. When you practice with a live blade or other deadly weapon, you
cannot help but think about the potential of that weapon to take a
life... This is actually the reason that many of the Okinawan founders
gave for adding kubudo to Karate.
>Absolutely. We're agreeing here even more than Al Gore and
>Geo. Bush in debate #2 :-)
Hmmm... I dunno... I think they just sounded like they agreed because
neither one was actually saying anything :)
>Sounds like a level-headed assessment. Hey, do me a favor- don't let
>this thread die soon. I'll be out of town a few days but I'd like to
>see some discussion keep going when I get back. I've slammed "Jack the
>Ripper" a bit in my last post, so I expect that to keep things cooking
>for awhile, anyway :-)))..
I'd like to see it last too... Maybe I'll try to provoke Gichoke a
little... Don't be so hard on ShadowJack... I think he means well.
Without the attitude he's actually got some good information.
Gichoke
>Date: 11/8/00 1:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <8ucgsr$b4a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>
>>I only like to drill the guys that really believe that Karate an Kung
>>Fu types can cpmare to NHB fighters, Boxers and the like.
>
>Yeah, I hate it too when people try to compare a self-defense art like
>Karate or Kung Fu to silly sports like NHB, boxing, and the like.
Yeah, that is what I'm saying.
It's fucking ridiculous.
Comparing A REAL MANS activity to little kids stuff.
I'm glad we are finally in agreement.
Gi
veng...@my-deja.com
>>>I only like to drill the guys that really believe that Karate an Kung
>>>Fu types can cpmare to NHB fighters, Boxers and the like.
>>Yeah, I hate it too when people try to compare a self-defense art like
>>Karate or Kung Fu to silly sports like NHB, boxing, and the like.
>Yeah, that is what I'm saying.
>It's fucking ridiculous.
>Comparing A REAL MANS activity to little kids stuff.
>I'm glad we are finally in agreement.
Well, I wouldn't call NHB little kids stuff...
veng...@my-deja.com
>Many folks with some knowledge of karate history are familiar with the
>circumstances surrounding Itosu's creation of five short pieces
>(Pinon/Heian series) for use in gymnastics classes in Okinawa :-). Far
>from trying to be an extensive catalog of "deadly secrets", these were
>actually snippets from more advanced kata (mainly Kanku Dai and
>Bassai) for the purpose of giving kids some basic blocks and strikes
>in an elementary format. When Funakoshi went to Japan he did much the
>same thing with the Taikyoku series. There's not a lot of point
>strikes, ground grappling, joint breaks and other Black Belt mag
>topical favorites in these, either :-).
Exactly. The Heian kata were created as beginner level kata so that
students (especially younger students) could get a foundation in the
art. Any advanced applications in these kata are no different than in
any other kata - there are many, many applications even for the most
basic blocking and punching combinations.
>In reality, this criticism is a stupid criticism. It's like taking a
>begining algebra book, flipping through the pages, and slamming the
>book because somebody didn't see partial differential equations in it.
>No shit, Sherlock. There *are* breaks and throws even in the five
>Heian, BTW. We've talked about some of the elbow breaks and parry-
>scoop-and-throws even here on RMA. If these are "hidden" so much, how
>come everyone on RMA knows where they are except our friend here? :-
>))).
There are no hidden techniques in kata, or any secrets. The secret is
training. If you learn the kata and examine the kata, you can find the
applications - they're right there in front of you.
The problem I think is that people rely too much on their instructor to
SHOW them everything. They only know the applications of kata that
they are directly shown, and anything else must be "hidden"
or "secret". Also, a lot of instructors try to make it sound like they
are revealing secrets when they demonstrate applications - I guess they
think it makes them sound more knowledgeable or something.
The only "secret" in Karate is training.
>Itosu didn't "rip the heart" out of anything. He simple created
>something for teaching in schools :-))). Ya know, it's a real shame he
>didn't have you guys on RMA to consult on what the current fads are.
>He didn't read Inside Kungfu magazine and George Dillman's books on
>point strikes, and so he didn't realize every technique in a kata is
>supposed to be a "hidden" point strike and/or joint break (even better
>if you combine both in the same technique- let's throw everything
>in). LOL
Just about any technique has the potential to be a point strike, a
joint break, or something like that. On the other hand, just about
every technique can be exactly what it looks like - a punch or a kick.
The problem with Dillman is that he tries to make it sound like
EVERYTHING is a point strike - and more importantly, one that only HE
knows about...
>Completely wrong. The palm-down fist is found throughout Okinawan
>styles, because it is also found in the parent arts back in Southern
>China. In fact, it's so old they have drawings of it in centuries-old
>Shaolin manuscripts :-). Every style of karate in the world today has
>both a vertical and turned-down fist, bubba.
Exactly. There are reasons for using either. Personally, I like the
vertical fist a little better, mostly because I train in Isshinryu, but
I use both.
>*Every* style of karate has political problems and factions. Don't
>think your Okinawan favorites are any different. Where there's people,
>there's always too many chiefs and not enough indians. Whaddaya think
>Dillman has done over the years? You think anybody gets along with
>and respects him? Guess again.
Dillman is resected by his followers. Personally, I think he does have
some good information, but he is by no means the only source of this
information - or even the best source. His demonstrations seem staged,
and a lot of his theory is pretty suspect.
Arrogance doesn't help much either.
>Your comments on Shotokan "dumbing down" kata bacause they were "too
>difficult for the Japs to grasp" is not only racist, it's wrong. Any
>time an art passes from one country to another, it's going to go
>through some modifications. In the case of Shotokan, changes were made
>in the height of stances, manner of delivery of some techniques and so
>on to reflect Shotokan biases in these areas, but the kata are very
>recognizable. There's no "dumbing down" going on; the same apps are
>there as in the Okinawan counterparts. It's up to the teacher to bring
>out what they want.
You are right... They are the same kata. Any Okinwan stylist should
be able to recognize the Japanese counterpart to a kata he knows.
I think that, generally speaking, the Japanese kata are more centered
around generating power, whereas the Okinawan kata are a centered a bit
more on natural movement. This is not a criticism, just an observation.
It seems to me that the Japanese styles took the kata movements and
changed them in a way that brought out the pure power, and also the
more aestetic aspects.
>As for your hero Dillman himself, it's a common criticism in karate
>circles that Dillman is little more than a showman. Many of us (me
>included) don't think his technical skills are very high.
>These criticisms go both ways. Japanese styles often don't get much
>into the fads as much as other styles, but they'll turn right around
>and ask the fad styles how their basic techniques are doing. If the
>basics aren't any good, the legs are weak and the techniques couldn't
>rip a paper sack, who cares about how many points you know about?
I can't personally comment on Dillman's skills because, quite frankly
I've never seen him use them. Every demonstration I have seen has
involved an Uke who was either standing still or acting in an exactly
predetermined manner.
I agree with you on the second part as well... Without a good
foundation in the basics, all the point knowledge in the world is
meaningless. You can't hit the points without good fundamentals.
Finally, just for the sake of other folks who read this - Dillman is
NOT my hero... That was (I hope!) directed at ShadowJack.
>Also, Dillman showing you guys how to hit a point while you're
>standing there in a seminar is a bit different than you point wonnabes
>trying this stuff against a moving, non-cooperative opponent.
>Don't believe me? You and I need to do some sparring.
Exactly. Oddly enough, they refuse to demonstrate these techniques on
non-cooperative opponents, or on ANY opponent who is not in their
organization for that matter.
ShadowJack
<veng...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8uedtj$rag$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> >Many folks with some knowledge of karate history are familiar with the
> >circumstances surrounding Itosu's creation of five short pieces
> >(Pinon/Heian series) for use in gymnastics classes in Okinawa :-). Far
> >from trying to be an extensive catalog of "deadly secrets", these were
> >actually snippets from more advanced kata (mainly Kanku Dai and
> >Bassai) for the purpose of giving kids some basic blocks and strikes
> >in an elementary format. When Funakoshi went to Japan he did much the
> >same thing with the Taikyoku series. There's not a lot of point
> >strikes, ground grappling, joint breaks and other Black Belt mag
> >topical favorites in these, either :-).
>
> Exactly. The Heian kata were created as beginner level kata so that
> students (especially younger students) could get a foundation in the
> art. Any advanced applications in these kata are no different than in
> any other kata - there are many, many applications even for the most
> basic blocking and punching combinations.
Ah.... but are the Japanese shoto instructors teaching higher level bunkai
for these kata? I had to look at other styles take on kata to get a higher
meaning from them.
> >In reality, this criticism is a stupid criticism. It's like taking a
> >begining algebra book, flipping through the pages, and slamming the
> >book because somebody didn't see partial differential equations in it.
> >No shit, Sherlock. There *are* breaks and throws even in the five
> >Heian, BTW. We've talked about some of the elbow breaks and parry-
> >scoop-and-throws even here on RMA. If these are "hidden" so much, how
> >come everyone on RMA knows where they are except our friend here? :-
> >))).
>
> There are no hidden techniques in kata, or any secrets. The secret is
> training. If you learn the kata and examine the kata, you can find the
> applications - they're right there in front of you.
Yes as I said in my original post study and a good imagination.
> The problem I think is that people rely too much on their instructor to
> SHOW them everything. They only know the applications of kata that
> they are directly shown, and anything else must be "hidden"
> or "secret". Also, a lot of instructors try to make it sound like they
> are revealing secrets when they demonstrate applications - I guess they
> think it makes them sound more knowledgeable or something.
>
> The only "secret" in Karate is training.
Agreed, but there keys in Kata that are there to unlock them,
trouble is no one shows them or left for you to discover
go figure
> >Itosu didn't "rip the heart" out of anything. He simple created
> >something for teaching in schools :-))). Ya know, it's a real shame he
> >didn't have you guys on RMA to consult on what the current fads are.
> >He didn't read Inside Kungfu magazine and George Dillman's books on
> >point strikes, and so he didn't realize every technique in a kata is
> >supposed to be a "hidden" point strike and/or joint break (even better
> >if you combine both in the same technique- let's throw everything
> >in). LOL
>
> Just about any technique has the potential to be a point strike, a
> joint break, or something like that. On the other hand, just about
> every technique can be exactly what it looks like - a punch or a kick.
> The problem with Dillman is that he tries to make it sound like
> EVERYTHING is a point strike - and more importantly, one that only HE
> knows about...
But did he teach point strikes or tuite to the kids?
God I'm getting so much grief over Dillman :-)
What I should of said that my knowledge on pp striking is
limited and you could have substituted Dillman for Morris or montigue
or moneymaker or Oyata
I've seen a couple of Dillmans Tapes, on Ryukyu Kempo Kata and
such, his techniques don't look all that great, but he has useful
information.
The problem I have with Dillman is whose going stand there and let
selfs be chopped in the arm and neck etc.
> >Your comments on Shotokan "dumbing down" kata bacause they were "too
> >difficult for the Japs to grasp" is not only racist, it's wrong. Any
> >time an art passes from one country to another, it's going to go
> >through some modifications. In the case of Shotokan, changes were made
> >in the height of stances, manner of delivery of some techniques and so
> >on to reflect Shotokan biases in these areas, but the kata are very
> >recognizable. There's no "dumbing down" going on; the same apps are
> >there as in the Okinawan counterparts. It's up to the teacher to bring
> >out what they want.
>
> You are right... They are the same kata. Any Okinwan stylist should
> be able to recognize the Japanese counterpart to a kata he knows.
I once was told by Shorin stylist, that Heians are like a snapshot of the
pinans,
IE, from move to move pinans contain extra movements.
Study them side by side and the differences are there,
as I said before Funakoshi DID simplify the Katas.
> Finally, just for the sake of other folks who read this - Dillman is
> NOT my hero... That was (I hope!) directed at ShadowJack.
>
> >Also, Dillman showing you guys how to hit a point while you're
> >standing there in a seminar is a bit different than you point wonnabes
> >trying this stuff against a moving, non-cooperative opponent.
> >Don't believe me? You and I need to do some sparring.
>
> Exactly. Oddly enough, they refuse to demonstrate these techniques on
> non-cooperative opponents, or on ANY opponent who is not in their
> organization for that matter.
God- Dillman again.:-(
I've seen nothing yet to change my views that karate (Shoto)
isn't a watered down version of shorin ryu, not that I don't think
it's an effect art, but the problem I have is the way it's teached
and it's certainally not a full art.
I'm not a racist or bitter towards the Japanese, just dissappointed
to find out that it's being sold as something it's not.
Jack.
Gichoke
>Date: 11/9/00 5:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <8ue9rf$nms$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>
>>>>I only like to drill the guys that really believe that Karate an Kung
>>>>Fu types can cpmare to NHB fighters, Boxers and the like.
>
>>>Yeah, I hate it too when people try to compare a self-defense art like
>>>Karate or Kung Fu to silly sports like NHB, boxing, and the like.
>
>>Yeah, that is what I'm saying.
>>It's fucking ridiculous.
>>Comparing A REAL MANS activity to little kids stuff.
>>I'm glad we are finally in agreement.
>
>Well, I wouldn't call NHB little kids stuff...
Of course not.
We're on the same page, dude.
Gi
veng...@my-deja.com
>> Exactly. The Heian kata were created as beginner level kata so that
>> students (especially younger students) could get a foundation in the
>> art. Any advanced applications in these kata are no different than
>> in any other kata - there are many, many applications even for the
>> most basic blocking and punching combinations.
>Ah.... but are the Japanese shoto instructors teaching higher level
>bunkai for these kata? I had to look at other styles take on kata to
>get a higher meaning from them.
Yes, many of them are.
>> There are no hidden techniques in kata, or any secrets. The secret
>> is training. If you learn the kata and examine the kata, you can
>> find the applications - they're right there in front of you.
>Yes as I said in my original post study and a good imagination.
Yea, I agreed with that part.
>> The only "secret" in Karate is training.
>Agreed, but there keys in Kata that are there to unlock them,
>trouble is no one shows them or left for you to discover
>go figure
There are people out there who can show you the applications in kata.
You just have to look around. Also, you can look for yourself.
>> Just about any technique has the potential to be a point strike, a
>> joint break, or something like that. On the other hand, just about
>> every technique can be exactly what it looks like - a punch or a
>> kick. The problem with Dillman is that he tries to make it sound
>> like EVERYTHING is a point strike - and more importantly, one that
>> only HE knows about...
>But did he teach point strikes or tuite to the kids?
Dillman? I dunno. I have not seen him teaching children, so I can't
say.
>God I'm getting so much grief over Dillman :-)
>What I should of said that my knowledge on pp striking is
>limited and you could have substituted Dillman for Morris or montigue
>or moneymaker or Oyata
All of those guys have some good information.
>I've seen a couple of Dillmans Tapes, on Ryukyu Kempo Kata and
>such, his techniques don't look all that great, but he has useful
>information. The problem I have with Dillman is whose going stand
>there and let selfs be chopped in the arm and neck etc.
Those are the exact issues I have with Dillman. One, he seems to have
at least a decent understanding of pressure point theory, but theory
means nothing without the technique to back it up. Second, I have some
serious doubts when EVERY demonstration is against either a completely
immobile opponent, or an opponent attacking in an exactly predetermined
manner.
>I once was told by Shorin stylist, that Heians are like a snapshot of
>the pinans, IE, from move to move pinans contain extra movements.
>Study them side by side and the differences are there,
>as I said before Funakoshi DID simplify the Katas.
The Heian kata ARE the Pinan kata. The names were changed between
Okinawa and Japan. The variations in the movements are no different
than the variations you find with any kata between different styles.
TravIsGod
>I've seen nothing yet to change my views that karate (Shoto)
>isn't a watered down version of shorin ryu, not that I don't think
>it's an effect art, but the problem I have is the way it's teached
>and it's certainally not a full art.
>I'm not a racist or bitter towards the Japanese, just dissappointed
>to find out that it's being sold as something it's not.
>Jack.
Say it with me now: "Shotokan is a watered-down art."
Everyone knows this. The JKA teaches nonsense, simple as that.
Trav
veng...@my-deja.com
>>>>I only like to drill the guys that really believe that Karate an
Kung
>>>>>Fu types can cpmare to NHB fighters, Boxers and the like.
>
>>>>Yeah, I hate it too when people try to compare a self-defense art
like
>>>>Karate or Kung Fu to silly sports like NHB, boxing, and the like.
>>
>>>Yeah, that is what I'm saying.
>>>It's fucking ridiculous.
>>>Comparing A REAL MANS activity to little kids stuff.
>>>I'm glad we are finally in agreement.
>
>>Well, I wouldn't call NHB little kids stuff...
>Of course not.
>We're on the same page, dude.
So we agree that even though NHB isn't little kids stuff, it is still
just a sport and not really related to self-defense.
veng...@my-deja.com
>>God- Dillman again.:-(
>>I've seen nothing yet to change my views that karate (Shoto)
>>isn't a watered down version of shorin ryu, not that I don't think
>>it's an effect art, but the problem I have is the way it's teached
>>and it's certainally not a full art.
>>I'm not a racist or bitter towards the Japanese, just dissappointed
>>to find out that it's being sold as something it's not.
>>Jack.
>Say it with me now: "Shotokan is a watered-down art."
>Everyone knows this. The JKA teaches nonsense, simple as that.
Have you ever studied Shotokan? Do you know anyone who studies
Shotokan? Do you even know what Shotokan is?
Are all AOL people trolls?
veng...@my-deja.com
>Always thought the whole Pinan kata thing was funny, myself. Here's a
>bunch of kata developed for juniors to practice, and everybody is
>holding them up as some great example of what one should practice. It
>would be like watching Puzo walk by with a junior high school English
>text book under his arm.
Very true. There is a lot to be gained from the Pinan kata, but that
doesn't mean they are this all-powerful set of kata... They were
created for beginners to teach fundamentals.
That being said, they do provide a good foundation for later forms, and
so they do serve a purpose.
Badger
veng...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >Always thought the whole Pinan kata thing was funny, myself. Here's
a
> >bunch of kata developed for juniors to practice, and everybody is
> >holding them up as some great example of what one should practice.
It
> >would be like watching Puzo walk by with a junior high school English
> >text book under his arm.
>
> Very true. There is a lot to be gained from the Pinan kata, but that
> doesn't mean they are this all-powerful set of kata... They were
> created for beginners to teach fundamentals.
I wouldn't just put "beginners" but "juniors" in there too. They are
simplified kata, that perhaps should be excised to focus more on the
core items.
> That being said, they do provide a good foundation for later forms,
and
> so they do serve a purpose.
Sure, no real disagreement there, except I wonder if the value of these
forms as foundational is overestimated. Don't get me wrong, I'm not
interested in having students rip through as many forms as they can
force into their brains, in fact, I've had students spend over a year on
our first form (approx. 40 moves according to how it would probably be
broken up in a karate-esque count). Considering that at the time these
kata were introduced, schools would have a relatively small number of
kata, and work them near obsessively.
Are students being well-served by being taught a series of kata that are
possibly little more than junior-high phys. ed. exercises?
Badger
--
Shaolin Five Animals Kung Fu
& Filipino Martial Arts
http://www.cyberus.ca/~badger/
http://www.martialartsgala2000.com
Gichoke
>From: veng...@my-deja.com
>Date: 11/10/00 12:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <8uhk6p$hjt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Let me put it this way.
You find a guy thats had at least 1 NHB win that couldn't meet you on the
street an anally rape you if he was in the mood, an yeah.... I'll agree with
ya.
Gi
jojoba jojoba
are good. I dislike traditional forms that are so far off from self-defense and
develop poor self-defense atributes. An example of a improper form technique is
the chambering if the fist. This may have come from the days when everyone
carried a sword. However, today punching like this can get you killed on the
street against a Tank Abbott. So, the principle of forms benefits the student in
many ways. The application of forms often leaves poor self-defense habits.
Karate is self-defense so it must have a modicum of efficient techiniue even if
it is also an art for personal development.
Paul Tanenbaum
Badger <badger...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8uhkut$i6j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> veng...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >Always thought the whole Pinan kata thing was funny, myself. Here's
> > >a bunch of kata developed for juniors to practice, and everybody is
> > >holding them up as some great example of what one should practice.
> >
> > doesn't mean they are this all-powerful set of kata... They were
> > That being said, they do provide a good foundation for later forms,
> > and so they do serve a purpose.
>
> Sure, no real disagreement there, except I wonder if the value of these
> Are students being well-served by being taught a series of kata that
> are possibly little more than junior-high phys. ed. exercises?
Exhuming the Great Kata Debate from the grave, are we?
Shame on you, Badge.
My turn: Are students being well-served by being taught ANY series of
kata?
---
Paul T. "It's like tryin' to kill Rasputin"
Paul Tanenbaum
Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu (JimS) wrote:
> In article <973640458.25450.0...@news.demon.co.uk>, Wolfj...@Hotmail.com says...
> >"Ankoh Itosu had intended that his corkscrew punch be used with
> > instead of twisting the whole way, it should strike in a diagonal
> > position.
>
> That's a wonderful analysis. Personally, I think the above quote sucks
> rocks. There's nothing wrong with a full twist into a palm-down fist,
The palm down posture feels structurally inferior to me. A few years I
started hitting the bag with 3/4 turn, comparing it to full turn, and the
alignment feels sturdier on impact. Doesn't seem to sacrifice any power
either, nor would I expect any difference.
Your mileage etc.
> > next time you train under a Japanese Sensei ask him the bunkai
> > for a certain technique in a Kata, and see what answer he gives you!
> > Bet it'll be along the lines of punchie / kickie type bunkai - Don't
> > ask questions train harder type answer.
>
> Yip. That's the Japanese way, and we're proud of it :-).
> It produces some folks (not everybody, just some) who can really kick
> the snot outta their more traditional counterparts, mickey-mousing
> around with acupunture points...
This really hits the nail. People are going to allocate 6 hours per
week to their training, and it's a question of what you focus on. If you
work on speed and power in your basics, you get good at that. If you
spend time on grasping techniques and vital point strikes, your snot-
kicking abilities will suffer.
This is why I'm suspicious of the 'comprehensive' styles. Jack of
all trades, master of none.
> > So keep paying your hard earned money to your Karate organisation
> > where they may someday admit to you that they just don't know the
> > answers...
>
> Sounds like you've been hanging around Redmond too long.
> Go look at the karate over on Okinawa some time, and tell me if the
> stuff you observe is superior techique-wise to JKA.
> I'm awaitin' here with breathless anticipation for your assessements.
Go easy on Jack, Q. He's been doing karoddy a long time, and feels
cheated that they didn't show him the 'good stuff'. The Wizard has
turned out to be a little man behind the curtain.
You two have more in common than differences, methinks. Considering some
of your past comments on JKA and godsenseis, he seems positively mellow
by comparison.
--
Paul T
"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King
veng...@my-deja.com
>>So we agree that even though NHB isn't little kids stuff, it is still
>>just a sport and not really related to self-defense.
>Let me put it this way.
>You find a guy thats had at least 1 NHB win that couldn't meet you on
>the street an anally rape you if he was in the mood, an yeah.... I'll
>agree with ya.
So what you're really saying is that you think all NHB fighters are
homosexuals? I'd like to see you tell Tank Abbot that to his face, Gi!
veng...@my-deja.com
>> Very true. There is a lot to be gained from the Pinan kata, but that
>> doesn't mean they are this all-powerful set of kata... They were
>I wouldn't just put "beginners" but "juniors" in there too. They are
>simplified kata, that perhaps should be excised to focus more on the
>core items.
I use the term "beginners" because these kata are generally started at
the beginning of many styles. "Juniors" works too. And yes, these
kata are meant to focus on the most basic techniques.
>Sure, no real disagreement there, except I wonder if the value of
>these forms as foundational is overestimated. Don't get me wrong, I'm
>not interested in having students rip through as many forms as they
>can force into their brains, in fact, I've had students spend over a
>year on our first form (approx. 40 moves according to how it would
>probably be broken up in a karate-esque count). Considering that at
>the time these kata were introduced, schools would have a relatively
>small number of kata, and work them near obsessively.
Good points. I personally don't think a student (or a teacher for that
matter) should ever be "finished" with a kata. Each kata can offer a
lifetime of good information. I still practice the first kata I've
ever learned as much and as hard as I practice the most recent kata.
In Isshinryu we do not use the Pinan series at all. We use a series of
basic kicks and punches before dropping right into Seisan kata.
However, we practice these basics from the day we start Isshinryu until
the day we stop Isshinryu :) I have trained with schools who use the
Pinan and most of them feel the same about those kata - they should be
practiced from the beginning of ones training until the end.
>Are students being well-served by being taught a series of kata that
>are possibly little more than junior-high phys. ed. exercises?
Sure. Those kata may be simplified in terms of technique, but they are
still good fundamental techniques. They were simplified to be usable
in a phys-ed setting, but that does not mean that they are intended
only for phys-ed.
JimS
>
>
>>>God- Dillman again.:-(
>>>I've seen nothing yet to change my views that karate (Shoto)
>>>isn't a watered down version of shorin ryu, not that I don't think
>>>it's an effect art, but the problem I have is the way it's teached
>>>and it's certainally not a full art.
>>>I'm not a racist or bitter towards the Japanese, just dissappointed
>>>to find out that it's being sold as something it's not.
>>>Jack.
>
>
>>Everyone knows this. The JKA teaches nonsense, simple as that.
>
>Have you ever studied Shotokan? Do you know anyone who studies
>Shotokan? Do you even know what Shotokan is?
>Are all AOL people trolls?
Aw, Travie is just up to his usual tricks.
Chalk it up to jealousy; I'm better looking than he is and use
complex sentences in my posts :-).
I will grant that the typical Shotokan curriculum doesn't do much
trying to turn bunkai (apps) into lessons in point-strikes and
breaks and so on. Many individual Japanese instructors know this angle
fairly well (hey, it's part of the Japanese martial tradition don't
forget) but it isn't taught with much of an emphasis. Training is a
tradeoff- whatever you emphasize, something else will be lacking;
comments I'll address in another post.
Another thing to remember, something I guess I need to repeat since these
"watered-down" comments are so common, is that in Japan the situation
is a little different; many karateka also have dan rankings in judo
and aikido, kendo as so on; there's a lot of cross-training going on.
So many students are getting the locks, throws, etc. from that angle.
The martial atmosphere is a little different outside of Japan,
it's safe to say. It's probably a valid cricitism that Shotokan
students don't typically have a lot of exposure to these other aspects
as much as they should. That's where guys like Vince Morris (and others)
come in and fill a void in the Shotokan arsenal, so to speak.
JS
JimS
[snipped for brevity]
>> Sounds like you've been hanging around Redmond too long.
>> Go look at the karate over on Okinawa some time, and tell me if the stuff
>> you observe is superior techique-wise to JKA.
>
>Never met Redomnd, he comes over rather arrogant to me, but he's got some
>valid points. I mean we've all got our reasons for training in Karate, and
>If my first post came over as racisist, I'm sorry it wasn't meant to be. However for the
>Japanese to represent Karate as total system of self defense, that's just a plain lie
No problem with the comments; I ain't Japanese either and this is a public forum.
I don't think you're racist, but your criticism of the Japanese approach probably
lacks a little bit of understanding of how they like to approach the art.
There's a reason for that "simplicity". It's not because they're ignorant, but for
other reasons.
>"ultimate method of self defence" that ring a bell?
Well, you'll hear this sales talk everywhere. As long as you've been in martial
arts, you should be used to it by now.
Styles are like car dealerships, let's face it.
If that was true why are some many
>Karateka off learning grappling arts, Hell I do Aikido as well and it's opened a
>whole new world >of kata apps for me. Heian Sandan...large circle move at the end of the Kata
>very similar to kokyu nage don't you think?
The punches over the shoulder?
Could be.
>> I'm awaitin' here with brethless anticipation for your assessements.
>> JS
>Looking forward to round three Jim.
>Jack.
I'm looking forward even more to correcting typos like "breathless".
You guys think I can't spell very well, which may be true, but it's 95%
typos. Obviously, I don't proof-read much on these threads. What you're
getting is straight from the hip, errors and all. I hope you appreciate
the spontaneous nature of my comments vs. the carefully crafted structures
you see other people write (i.e.,guys like Liberator, lil' Timmy, Turiyan
Maui Gold et al). What an artifical bunch.
JS
JimS
[snipped]
>The palm down posture feels structurally inferior to me. A few years I
>started hitting the bag with 3/4 turn, comparing it to full turn, and the
>alignment feels sturdier on impact. Doesn't seem to sacrifice any power
>either, nor would I expect any difference.
>Your mileage etc.
I think you're right. The vertical fist *is* a little more natural way to
punch. The only negative I've seen over the years is the tendency to hit
with too much of the little knuckles; if you hit bone like that, look out.
>> > next time you train under a Japanese Sensei ask him the bunkai
>> > for a certain technique in a Kata, and see what answer he gives you!
>> > Bet it'll be along the lines of punchie / kickie type bunkai - Don't
>> > ask questions train harder type answer.
>>
>> Yip. That's the Japanese way, and we're proud of it :-).
>> It produces some folks (not everybody, just some) who can really kick
>> the snot outta their more traditional counterparts, mickey-mousing
>> around with acupunture points...
>
> This really hits the nail. People are going to allocate 6 hours per
>week to their training, and it's a question of what you focus on. If you
>work on speed and power in your basics, you get good at that. If you
>spend time on grasping techniques and vital point strikes, your snot-
>kicking abilities will suffer.
>This is why I'm suspicious of the 'comprehensive' styles.
>Jack ofall trades, master of none.
It's a valid observation.
One's training time is always a trade-off.
The Japanese stylists typically go for hi-reps on the basics, much more
than other styles may do. That has good points, and it has bad points.
The good points include things like not needing much more than
a good front kick and reverse punch to see you through- if you spend enough
time on a few things, you'll get reliable results just with these few things.
The bad side is, you're unexposed to a fuller arsenal out there.
And that's the strengths and weaknesses of typical Shotokan in a nutshell, take it
or leave it.
And this little observation, I think, gives a window into the way the
Japanese approach foreign cultural contributions. They'll take 'em and tweak
'em and try to extract the essence.
You'll see it from calligraphy to tea drinking to bonsai to gardens to cars to
electronics :-).
And you'll also see a white guy trying to explain a foreign culture himself, so
take it with a grain of salt. That would be me :-).
JS
>
>> > So keep paying your hard earned money to your Karate organisation
>> > where they may someday admit to you that they just don't know the
>> > answers...
>>
>> Sounds like you've been hanging around Redmond too long.
>> Go look at the karate over on Okinawa some time, and tell me if the
>> stuff you observe is superior techique-wise to JKA.
>> I'm awaitin' here with breathless anticipation for your assessements.
>
>Go easy on Jack, Q. He's been doing karoddy a long time, and feels
>cheated that they didn't show him the 'good stuff'. The Wizard has
>turned out to be a little man behind the curtain.
>
>You two have more in common than differences, methinks. Considering some
>of your past comments on JKA and godsenseis, he seems positively mellow
>by comparison.
>
>--
>Paul T
>
>"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King
>
>
>
Gichoke
>From: veng...@my-deja.com
>Date: 11/13/00 5:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <8uoom5$ndf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>
>>>So we agree that even though NHB isn't little kids stuff, it is still
>>>just a sport and not really related to self-defense.
>
>>Let me put it this way.
>>You find a guy thats had at least 1 NHB win that couldn't meet you on
>>the street an anally rape you if he was in the mood, an yeah.... I'll
>>agree with ya.
>
>So what you're really saying is that you think all NHB fighters are
>homosexuals? I'd like to see you tell Tank Abbot that to his face, Gi!
>
Actually Tank sometimes says he is gay.
Gi
veng...@my-deja.com
>>So what you're really saying is that you think all NHB fighters are
>>homosexuals? I'd like to see you tell Tank Abbot that to his face,
>>Gi!
>Actually Tank sometimes says he is gay.
I dunno Gi... I'll take your word for it. You are one of those
folks who just seems to know who ALL the gay people are.
veng...@my-deja.com
>I think you're right. The vertical fist *is* a little more natural way
>to punch. The only negative I've seen over the years is the tendency
>to hit with too much of the little knuckles; if you hit bone like
>that, look out.
I prefer the verticle fist because it feels much more natural, and just
seems faster. Also, while I agree with you about hitting with the
first two knuckles, this can be done quite well with the verticle
fist. However, it does take a bit more training to keep the wrist
strong with a verticle fist punch.
On a side note, I think it's interesting that some styles use the
verticle fist BECAUSE it allows them to more easily hit with the full
four knuckles. I don't agree with those folks, but I think it's
important to note (they do have their reasons after all).
>It's a valid observation.
>One's training time is always a trade-off.
>The Japanese stylists typically go for hi-reps on the basics, much
>more than other styles may do. That has good points, and it has bad
>points. The good points include things like not needing much more than
>a good front kick and reverse punch to see you through- if you spend
>enough time on a few things, you'll get reliable results just with
>these few things. The bad side is, you're unexposed to a fuller
>arsenal out there. And that's the strengths and weaknesses of typical
>Shotokan in a nutshell, take it or leave it.
It's tough to balance sometimes... On the one hand you want to keep it
simple to avoid hesitation in the heat of battle, but on the other hand
you want to be ready to deal with as many things as possible... If
anybody has the formula, please post it! :)
>And this little observation, I think, gives a window into the way the
>Japanese approach foreign cultural contributions. They'll take 'em and
>tweak 'em and try to extract the essence.
>You'll see it from calligraphy to tea drinking to bonsai to gardens to
>cars to electronics :-).
>And you'll also see a white guy trying to explain a foreign culture
>himself, so take it with a grain of salt. That would be me :-).
Yes, the Japanese are very good at extracting what they need from
something and making it their own. A lot of people criticize Japan for
this, but to me it just shows a lot of initiative.
ShadowJack
<veng...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8uepiq$6ij$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> >But did he teach point strikes or tuite to the kids?
>
> say.
Jack.
ShadowJack
"JimS" <Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu> wrote in message
news:8up2eq$e83$1...@Crestone.UCHSC.edu...
> In article <973709288.9822.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
Wolfj...@Hotmail.com says...
>
> [snipped for brevity]
opened a
> >whole new world >of kata apps for me. Heian Sandan...large circle move at
the end of the Kata
> >very similar to kokyu nage don't you think?
>
> The punches over the shoulder?
> Could be.
Getting away from this technique as an escape from a rear bear hug,
Funakoshi himself said in Kyohan "that you should look to basic kata
for throws etc."
I can't believe that Azato and Itosu, both in the employment of the
Okinawan crown, didn't have access to or were indeed not practicioners of
Ti. It would seem to complement the Shuri style of karate, my thoughts
only. Not having the means to compare Ti against Aikido this is only
a conjecture on my part, according to the sources I've been reading
both arts are similar.
However looking at this technique as some sort of "Okinawan Ti,Aikido throw"
I believe that the punches represent some sort of backup in case the throw
doesn't
work. From Kiba you execute the open hand block, (could represent wrist
disengagment,
and open hand smack to the face or an Ikkyo type lock, depending on which
hand the opponent
grabbed and which arm himself grabbed with.) After the stepping punch to
target of choice,(possibly
as a distraction and set up to the throw) left hand Hikite grabs opponents
left hand pulls back to hip
engaginging arm in an arm bar,spin in place, and execute a Wan strike to
back of the occipitals
(pp gb-20, b-10...Knocking him to the ground ???) the punch could represent
a controlling
technique such as an ear grab, shift across throwing your opponent to your
left, shift back and
execute another Wan strike to throat, depending on the position of the right
hand, high just under
neck = neck break, low, cloths grab (belt, Obi) leads to ordinary Kokyu
Nage.
Now if the after the spin and wan strike wasn't succesful, and he starts to
struggle.
shift to back to the right and grab his hair (ear) yank back hard to expose
trachea and execute a close
range kagi tsuki in to throat / face (chin). Still pulling on hair
(ear)follow through with the right Hikite
and throw him to the ground. You make your escape here :-)
> I'm looking forward even more to correcting typos like "breathless".
> You guys think I can't spell very well, which may be true, but it's 95%
> typos. Obviously, I don't proof-read much on these threads. What you're
> getting is straight from the hip, errors and all. I hope you appreciate
> the spontaneous nature of my comments vs. the carefully crafted structures
> you see other people write (i.e.,guys like Liberator, lil' Timmy, Turiyan
> Maui Gold et al). What an artifical bunch.
> JS
I long as I can read it, no problem :-)).
Jack
Gichoke
>Date: 11/13/00 1:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <8uplbd$h6r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>
>>>So what you're really saying is that you think all NHB fighters are
>>>homosexuals? I'd like to see you tell Tank Abbot that to his face,
>>>Gi!
>
>>Actually Tank sometimes says he is gay.
>
>I dunno Gi... I'll take your word for it. You are one of those
>folks who just seems to know who ALL the gay people are.
In the interest of avoiding being predictable, I will not respond with the
obligatory.
"I sure do, Venger"
"I SURE do."
You wouldn't get it anyways.
Gi
veng...@my-deja.com
>>I dunno Gi... I'll take your word for it. You are one of those
>>folks who just seems to know who ALL the gay people are.
>In the interest of avoiding being predictable, I will not respond with
>the obligatory.
>"I sure do, Venger"
>"I SURE do."
>You wouldn't get it anyways.
You've been predictable the whole time, why change now?
Badger
Paul Tanenbaum <ptane...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8uhqko$n95$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Badger <badger...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <8uhkut$i6j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > veng...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > >Always thought the whole Pinan kata thing was funny, myself.
Here's
> > > >a bunch of kata developed for juniors to practice, and everybody
is
> > > >holding them up as some great example of what one should
practice.
> > >
that
> > > doesn't mean they are this all-powerful set of kata... They were
> > > That being said, they do provide a good foundation for later
forms,
> > > and so they do serve a purpose.
> >
these
> > Are students being well-served by being taught a series of kata that
> > are possibly little more than junior-high phys. ed. exercises?
>
> Shame on you, Badge.
Ah shit, you got me. It isn't due to be reheated until next month.
Lemme check the schedule. Christianity in the Martial Arts is coming
next week, then BJJ Sucks, then TKD Sucks, and THEN the Great Kata
Debate.
> My turn: Are students being well-served by being taught ANY series of
> kata?
At the risk of starting up the discussion again (ahead of the official
schedule no less), I would say that the vast majority of kata are worth
little. I have learned many over the years, and discarded most of them.
Styles that have a large number of them (Chito-ryu karate, Choy Lee Fut
kung fu) are unfortunately stuck with a certain amount of dross too.
My perspective comes from teaching a forms-based Chinese style, and a
no-forms Filipino style. From the FMA and from my personal tendancies,
what I teach is fairly undogmatic, but the CMA forms provide a
structural basis for the student's movement.
An example: in my CMA, at a certain point a student is taught one of
the five animal forms, whichever one suits him best. Now, perhaps the
difference here is that the student is working on a form designed to
reinforce certain already existing positive tendencies of how they spar.
Anyway, it is pretty cool when you see the form start showing up in how
they fight. Kevin learned the crane form first, and although he already
had the tendency to strike from annoyingly long range, and from odd
angles, the form gave him some extra tools for the job and a solo
practice method that worked him in that direction.
> Paul T. "It's like tryin' to kill Rasputin"
Tough sparring partner, let me tell you. And don't fall for when he
taps out - he's faking.
Badger
--
Shaolin Five Animals Kung Fu
& Filipino Martial Arts
http://www.cyberus.ca/~badger/
Kirk Lawson
Badger wrote:
> > Exhuming the Great Kata Debate from the grave, are we?
> > Shame on you, Badge.
Did you ever notice that, in Disney's "Robin Hood," the character "Friar
Tuck" was A BADGER!?!?!
Coincidence? I think not!
> Ah shit, you got me. It isn't due to be reheated until next month.
> Lemme check the schedule. Christianity in the Martial Arts is coming
> next week,
What?!?! Why didn't I get the Memo? Now I'm gonna have to hustle to get my
references. :P
> then BJJ Sucks, then TKD Sucks, and THEN the Great Kata
> Debate.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk Lawson
Badger
Kirk Lawson <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>
>
> Badger wrote:
>
> > > Exhuming the Great Kata Debate from the grave, are we?
> > > Shame on you, Badge.
>
> Did you ever notice that, in Disney's "Robin Hood," the character
"Friar
> Tuck" was A BADGER!?!?!
>
> Coincidence? I think not!
Coincidence my furry ass. I read for the part of Robin Hood, but they
cast me as Tuck. Ah well, I have my monthly royalties cheque to console
me.
And the badger character in Franklin the Turtle is a cripple? Now what
sort of message is that sending to the children of North America?
>
> > Ah shit, you got me. It isn't due to be reheated until next month.
> > Lemme check the schedule. Christianity in the Martial Arts is
coming
> > next week,
>
> What?!?! Why didn't I get the Memo? Now I'm gonna have to hustle to
get my
> references. :P
Geez Kirk, don't you know anything? You aren't supposed to say anything
new in Christianity and the Martial Arts, just post whatever you posted
the last time. If you didn't post before, use either Kevin's or Chas's.
Why do I have the feeling I'm going to have to compile the Alterna-FAQ?
JimS
>
>
>"JimS" <Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu> wrote in message
>news:8up2eq$e83$1...@Crestone.UCHSC.edu...
>> In article <973709288.9822.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
>Wolfj...@Hotmail.com says...
>>
>> [snipped for brevity]
>> >Karateka off learning grappling arts, Hell I do Aikido as well and it's
>opened a
>> >whole new world >of kata apps for me. Heian Sandan...large circle move at
>the end of the Kata
>> >very similar to kokyu nage don't you think?
>>
>> The punches over the shoulder?
>> Could be.
>Hi Jim,
>Getting away from this technique as an escape from a rear bear hug,
>Funakoshi himself said in Kyohan "that you should look to basic kata
>for throws etc."
And I think that's very common anyway, but apparently you don't :-).
As I look back over the several schools I studied in, we always practiced
throws as apps from kata. Sweeps plus hip throws and so on; I believe
this is fairly typical. Of course, my first dojo was primarily a judo school,
so naturally the black belts taught us a lot of sweeps.
>I can't believe that Azato and Itosu, both in the employment of the
>Okinawan crown, didn't have access to or were indeed not practicioners of
>Ti. It would seem to complement the Shuri style of karate, my thoughts
>only. Not having the means to compare Ti against Aikido this is only
>a conjecture on my part, according to the sources I've been reading
>both arts are similar.
Do you mean by "Ti" (Te) the old indigenous stuff on the islands?
I'm not quite certain how you're using the term.
As for Okinawan karate comparisons with aikido, I personally don't see much
background similarities, although I certainly agree with you they can complement
each other very well. I'm leaving aside observations that aikido is ideally an
"internal" martial art, because I think the joint locks and throws are typically
performed fairly hard-style in many branches and thus don't really conflict with
karate movement. Karate folks can use the joint-locking and throws, and aikidoka
can benefit from the hand and foot strikes.
However, Okinawan karate has a background in southern chinese shaolin (including the
"hard", "soft", and "hard/soft" combination schools) whereas aikido has roots in
feudal Yagyu swordsmanship and samurai jujitsu arts (i.e., daitoryu). The streams
are a little different.
>However looking at this technique as some sort of "Okinawan Ti,Aikido throw"
>I believe that the punches represent some sort of backup in case the throw
>doesn't
>work. From Kiba you execute the open hand block, (could represent wrist
>disengagment,
>and open hand smack to the face or an Ikkyo type lock, depending on which
>hand the opponent
>grabbed and which arm himself grabbed with.) After the stepping punch to
>target of choice,(possibly
>as a distraction and set up to the throw) left hand Hikite grabs opponents
>left hand pulls back to hip
>engaginging arm in an arm bar,spin in place, and execute a Wan strike to
>back of the occipitals
>(pp gb-20, b-10...Knocking him to the ground ???) the punch could represent
>a controlling
>technique such as an ear grab, shift across throwing your opponent to your
>left, shift back and
>execute another Wan strike to throat, depending on the position of the right
>hand, high just under
>neck = neck break, low, cloths grab (belt, Obi) leads to ordinary Kokyu
>Nage.
Okay, I'll buy the shuffle-and-punch turning into a armbar-pull-with-punch-throw.
In kata it's always possible to turn a block or parry into a control techique or a
jointlock of some type, and actually, this kind of thing is fairly typical in
dojo bunkai experiments, I believe. We used to play around with a lot of this
kind of thing but I never felt like I was the equal of an aikidoka in smoothness
in applying locks and so on. Ditto with sweeps and other throws. We always praticed
them, and in fact some of us big guys favored them in kumite, but I'd never claim
to be equal to a good judoka in this area.
It all goes back to what this thread was discussing earlier; the more one tries to be
a jack-of-all-trades, the less expertise one has in each individual area.
It looks to me like you're advocating a more broad approach, or think that
the older Okinawan styles emphasize a much broader approach, and the
Japanese version is severely limited to "kicky/punchy" apps. That may or may not be,
but both approaches have good and bad points. But it always seems to me the
Japanese approach gets the shaft a bit too easily in karate discussions, and perhaps
folks are a little too hasty in making simplistic criticisms that, in fact,ignore
some of the underlying cultural/philosophical differences between different islands.
There's actually a tremendous difference in the way Japanese approach the fine and
martial arts vs. the older Okinawan traditions, which still have a heavy Chinese
influence. The Japanese have without question greatly modified the tradition, which
as I say has both good and bad aspects. Constructive criticism is warranted as
long as people understand a bit of the underlying aims of the changes :-).
JS
Kirk Lawson
Badger wrote:
> In article <3A115C8E...@heapy.com>,
> Kirk Lawson <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Badger wrote:
> >
> > > > Exhuming the Great Kata Debate from the grave, are we?
> > > > Shame on you, Badge.
> >
> > Did you ever notice that, in Disney's "Robin Hood," the character
> "Friar
> > Tuck" was A BADGER!?!?!
> >
> > Coincidence? I think not!
>
> Coincidence my furry ass. I read for the part of Robin Hood, but they
> cast me as Tuck. Ah well, I have my monthly royalties cheque to console
> me.
It's a sad state we're coming to when the under-respected Badger gets beat
out for a part by the hen-house infiltrating Fox. And what's with the noble
Wolf being cast as the Sheriff?
Before you know it, they'll be saying that Turtles beat Rabbits in foot
races and little old ladies will be swallowing flies!
> And the badger character in Franklin the Turtle is a cripple? Now what
> sort of message is that sending to the children of North America?
I dunno. Was it because he was shot in the back by 'da man?
> > > Ah shit, you got me. It isn't due to be reheated until next month.
> > > Lemme check the schedule. Christianity in the Martial Arts is
> coming
> > > next week,
> >
> > What?!?! Why didn't I get the Memo? Now I'm gonna have to hustle to
> get my
> > references. :P
>
> Geez Kirk, don't you know anything? You aren't supposed to say anything
> new in Christianity and the Martial Arts, just post whatever you posted
> the last time. If you didn't post before, use either Kevin's or Chas's.
Well of course I posted before (and I'm disappointed that you don't remember
my poetic, heaven inspired writings). I just forgot to save copies. :P
It looks less professional to simply post dejanews links to my old posts ya
know. After all, us right-wing, Bible-thumping radicals have an image to
uphold.
> Why do I have the feeling I'm going to have to compile the Alterna-FAQ?
Well, you're half way there with the "Challenge" FAQ.
Peace favor your sword
JimS
[snipped for brevity]
>And this little observation, I think, gives a window into the way the
>>Japanese approach foreign cultural contributions. They'll take 'em and
>>tweak 'em and try to extract the essence.
>>You'll see it from calligraphy to tea drinking to bonsai to gardens to
>>cars to electronics :-).
>>And you'll also see a white guy trying to explain a foreign culture
>>himself, so take it with a grain of salt. That would be me :-).
>
>Yes, the Japanese are very good at extracting what they need from
>something and making it their own. A lot of people criticize Japan for
>this, but to me it just shows a lot of initiative.
Not just initiative, but genuine innovation and creativity. It's fairly common
to hear criticisms of Japanese people being mere "polishers" vs. "creators" (the
U.S., of course), but while there's some truth to this stereotype, there's some
falseness in it too. In many cases, the Japanese have taken borrowed cultural
concepts and actually have *improved* them into something entirely new.
I'll throw this out as a cultural consideration to think about- "sophistication"
does *not* always equal "better". Compared to the vast and ancient culture of
China, for instance, Japan's own cultural background looks small and insigficant and
heavily dependent on parent cultures, unless you begin to look more closely.
The Japanese never tried to match a huge country like China for cultural sophistication;
there's no need to try. Instead, they borrowed and turned it into something uniquely
Japanese. As an example from the fine arts, the social act of drinking tea in China has
none of the powerful significance of the act in Japan. Only in Japan could you find
it turned into a powerful ritual of mental clarity throughout every motion of guest and host.
This is something new, and something better.
Ditto with the art of gardening. It's fairly common knowledge in expert gardening
circles that the Japanese have taken the art of pruning to a far more advanced level
than the old Chinese prototypes. The old daoist model of untamed wildness and naturalness
has been transformed into a precise aesthetic technical art. The Chinese government as we
speak are no cultural dummies, they're commissioning Japanese garden designers as we speak
to come into China and do their thing :-). This isn't well known, but it's happening.
So much for cultural complexity being superior....
Think about these things. The Japanese are amazing folks.
Crazy, but amazing.
JS :-)
Gichoke
>Date: 11/14/00 5:18 AM P
>
>You've been predictable the whole time, why change now?
Good point.I'll stick with predictable.
You fag.
Gi
Badger
> It's a sad state we're coming to when the under-respected Badger gets
beat
> out for a part by the hen-house infiltrating Fox. And what's with the
noble
> Wolf being cast as the Sheriff?
Well, if the Wolf had made that little trip to the casting couch like
the rest of us, then perhaps things would have been different, eh?
> Before you know it, they'll be saying that Turtles beat Rabbits in
foot
> races and little old ladies will be swallowing flies!
An interesting story about the latter: you may have seen a cartoon for
that song, with Burl Ives singing the tune. I met the animator many
years ago and in one scene the dog is holding a bomb, with the wick
burning down and down. While he was drawing those scenes, the Cuban
Missle Crisis was in full swing. He just couldn't make himself draw the
bomb exploding while all this was going on. The day after the
resolution of the Crisis, he happily let the bomb go off.
> > And the badger character in Franklin the Turtle is a cripple? Now
what
> > sort of message is that sending to the children of North America?
>
> I dunno. Was it because he was shot in the back by 'da man?
Ever since they started marketing cartoons to inner-city kids, Saturday
morning has seemed... different somehow.
> > > > Ah shit, you got me. It isn't due to be reheated until next
month.
> > > > Lemme check the schedule. Christianity in the Martial Arts is
> > coming
> > > > next week,
> > >
> > > What?!?! Why didn't I get the Memo? Now I'm gonna have to hustle
to
> > get my
> > > references. :P
> >
> > Geez Kirk, don't you know anything? You aren't supposed to say
anything
> > new in Christianity and the Martial Arts, just post whatever you
posted
> > the last time. If you didn't post before, use either Kevin's or
Chas's.
>
> Well of course I posted before (and I'm disappointed that you don't
remember
> my poetic, heaven inspired writings). I just forgot to save copies.
:P
This may hurt you to know this, but I can't bring myself to read any
posts that have "Christianity" in the title in rma, not even your
sterling prose.
> It looks less professional to simply post dejanews links to my old
posts ya
> know. After all, us right-wing, Bible-thumping radicals have an image
to
> uphold.
Well then you had better change your comment "poetic, heaven inspired
writings" to "poetic, biblically inerrant writings."
> > Why do I have the feeling I'm going to have to compile the
Alterna-FAQ?
>
> Well, you're half way there with the "Challenge" FAQ.
It is just such a daunting task, having to write all this stuff for "How
to properly disparage other styles," "Rec.Martial-Arts vs. Daycare
Centre, who has more adult supervision?" "Raving, alcoholic,
street-dwelling lunatic or committed martial artist - You decide"
The weight of the world is on my shoulders, I tell you.
Kirk Lawson
> Well, if the Wolf had made that little trip to the casting couch like
> the rest of us, then perhaps things would have been different, eh?
Another starry-eyed illusion dispelled by heartles reality. *sniff*
> He just couldn't make himself draw the
> bomb exploding while all this was going on. The day after the
> resolution of the Crisis, he happily let the bomb go off.
Nifty story. But it shows your age. Unlike the younger generation (me).
"Conjuction-juntion, What's your function!"
> Ever since they started marketing cartoons to inner-city kids, Saturday
> morning has seemed... different somehow.
Ah yes. Let's return to those fleeting days of yester-year. A firey horse
and a "Hi-o, Silver! Away!"
The days when violence in the Cinima and TV wasn't a problem like it is
now. I still remember Matt Dillon of "Gun Smoke" beating a bad guy to the
draw and blowing him away as the intro to every episode. And who could
forget those three (four?) pacifists: The Three Stooges, or the thrilling
episodes of Flash Gordon vaporizing the evil minions of Ming The Merciless,
to say nothing of Wile E. Cyotee's cranium, inpenetrable to anvils and
high-explosives! *sigh* It takes one back... I tell ya what. Kids today
are just steeped in violence. (barefoot, uphill, both ways, with my brother
on my back...)
>
> > Well of course I posted before (and I'm disappointed that you don't
> remember
> > my poetic, heaven inspired writings). I just forgot to save copies.
> :P
>
> This may hurt you to know this, but I can't bring myself to read any
> posts that have "Christianity" in the title in rma, not even your
> sterling prose.
Och! Ye wound me!
> Well then you had better change your comment "poetic, heaven inspired
> writings" to "poetic, biblically inerrant writings."
Like I said. I have a reputation for an entire group to uphold!
> It is just such a daunting task, having to write all this stuff for "How
> to properly disparage other styles," "Rec.Martial-Arts vs. Daycare
> Centre, who has more adult supervision?" "Raving, alcoholic,
> street-dwelling lunatic or committed martial artist - You decide"
>
> The weight of the world is on my shoulders, I tell you.
Tsk Tsk. You have my sympathy. Looks like now, you're gonna have to add a
section on how to properly take a post off topic and into the various
"options."
1) Off topic into NHB
2) Off topic into Humor
3) Off topic into Gichoke's various personalities.
4) etc.
Peace favor your sword
Badger
Kirk Lawson <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
> Badger wrote:
>
> > Well, if the Wolf had made that little trip to the casting couch
like
> > the rest of us, then perhaps things would have been different, eh?
>
> Another starry-eyed illusion dispelled by heartles reality. *sniff*
Um, Kirk? The boys and I, well, we've been meaning to have a word with
you about Santa... and the Easter Bunny... and the Tooth Fairy...
> > He just couldn't make himself draw the
> > bomb exploding while all this was going on. The day after the
> > resolution of the Crisis, he happily let the bomb go off.
>
> Nifty story. But it shows your age. Unlike the younger generation
(me).
'Scuze me, buckaroo? I'm 34, ya punk, I met the guy in college. Stop
pickin' on me or I'll run over your foot with my walker.
> "Conjuction-juntion, What's your function!"
Schoolhouse Rocks was the greatest thing to ever attempt to educate
kids. The only problem was that I knew all about the US government, but
not so much about Canada's. Sing it with me, brother: "I am a Bill,
yes, I'm only a Bill..."
Now that I'm a dad, I find it very cool that the Schoolhouse Rocks tape
we have is one of my childrens' faves.
> > Ever since they started marketing cartoons to inner-city kids,
Saturday
> > morning has seemed... different somehow.
>
> Ah yes. Let's return to those fleeting days of yester-year. A firey
horse
> and a "Hi-o, Silver! Away!"
Geez, who's the old geezer now? Besides, the Lone Ranger was a pussy.
Davey Crockett, now there's a *real* man!
> The days when violence in the Cinima and TV wasn't a problem like it
is
> now. I still remember Matt Dillon of "Gun Smoke" beating a bad guy to
the
> draw and blowing him away as the intro to every episode. And who
could
> forget those three (four?) pacifists: The Three Stooges, or the
thrilling
> episodes of Flash Gordon vaporizing the evil minions of Ming The
Merciless,
> to say nothing of Wile E. Cyotee's cranium, inpenetrable to anvils and
> high-explosives! *sigh* It takes one back... I tell ya what. Kids
today
> are just steeped in violence. (barefoot, uphill, both ways, with my
brother
> on my back...)
Yeah, but it was good violence then. Besides, they've started editing
out some of the violence in the Bugs Bunny cartoons, most notably taking
the gunshots out of the Duck Season/Rabbit Season one. Kids won't be
exposed to as much violence on TV, but they are going to have a tenuous
grip on cause and effect thanks to ham-fisted editing of the cartoons.
I was always a Rifleman fan myself. The opening credits with Chuck
Conners fanning a Winchester repeating rifle was the coolest thing
around.
And when I was a child, my bare feet kept slipping on the ice on the way
to school, so I had to wrap barbed wire around on them or I wouldn't
have made it up all those hills.
> > > Well of course I posted before (and I'm disappointed that you
don't
> > remember
> > > my poetic, heaven inspired writings). I just forgot to save
copies.
> > :P
> >
> > This may hurt you to know this, but I can't bring myself to read any
> > posts that have "Christianity" in the title in rma, not even your
> > sterling prose.
>
> Och! Ye wound me!
Pray for healing and stop complaining.
> Tsk Tsk. You have my sympathy. Looks like now, you're gonna have to
add a
> section on how to properly take a post off topic and into the various
> "options."
>
> 1) Off topic into NHB
>
> 2) Off topic into Humor
>
> 3) Off topic into Gichoke's various personalities.
>
> 4) etc.
Hadn't thought of that, I just assumed that drifting off topic was rma's
natural proclivity.
Kirk Lawson
Badger wrote:
> Um, Kirk? The boys and I, well, we've been meaning to have a word with
> you about Santa... and the Easter Bunny... and the Tooth Fairy...
Ack! Noooooo.....
My wife swears that Santa is gonna bring me some cool stuff for Christmas.
And, if I'm gonna stay in martial arts, that Tooth Fairy person might come
in handy!
> 'Scuze me, buckaroo? I'm 34, ya punk, I met the guy in college. Stop
> pickin' on me or I'll run over your foot with my walker.
Ha! I wasn't born till '68. That makes me... [pauses to do the math] 32!
Ya old fart!
> Schoolhouse Rocks was the greatest thing to ever attempt to educate
> kids. The only problem was that I knew all about the US government, but
> not so much about Canada's. Sing it with me, brother: "I am a Bill,
> yes, I'm only a Bill..."
Now THAT'S funny!
> Now that I'm a dad, I find it very cool that the Schoolhouse Rocks tape
> we have is one of my childrens' faves.
I bought my own set of Schoolhouse Rock tapes years ago. My kid's gonna
have to get his own!
I also own my own copy of "Cat in the Hat" and "Green Eggs and Ham." Once
again, I'm not sharing. [insert voice of Daffy Duck going "Mine! Mine!
All Mine!]
> Geez, who's the old geezer now? Besides, the Lone Ranger was a pussy.
> Davey Crockett, now there's a *real* man!
"Killed him a barr, when he was only 3!"
Him & Dan'l Boone.
> Yeah, but it was good violence then. Besides, they've started editing
> out some of the violence in the Bugs Bunny cartoons, most notably taking
> the gunshots out of the Duck Season/Rabbit Season one. Kids won't be
> exposed to as much violence on TV, but they are going to have a tenuous
> grip on cause and effect thanks to ham-fisted editing of the cartoons.
Censorship! CENSORSHIP!
Come see the violence inherent in the system... err...
Censorship!
> I was always a Rifleman fan myself. The opening credits with Chuck
> Conners fanning a Winchester repeating rifle was the coolest thing
> around.
My wife thinks I'm a bit twisted for wanting to learn to do that
flip-lever-swing-shoot thing.
> And when I was a child, my bare feet kept slipping on the ice on the way
> to school, so I had to wrap barbed wire around on them or I wouldn't
> have made it up all those hills.
Barbed wire! You could afford barbed wire? I had to drive 7 penny nails
through the top of my feet till the points stuck out the bottoms (we
couldn't afford the 10 penny nails). My mom told me to stop whining about
"pain" since I could save the nails and use them again for cleats during
baseball season.
> Pray for healing and stop complaining.
That's exactly the words mom used about the nails.
> Hadn't thought of that, I just assumed that drifting off topic was rma's
> natural proclivity.
A complex task, no doubt.
Peace favor your sword
Badger
veng...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >> Very true. There is a lot to be gained from the Pinan kata, but
that
> >> doesn't mean they are this all-powerful set of kata... They were
>
> >I wouldn't just put "beginners" but "juniors" in there too. They are
> >simplified kata, that perhaps should be excised to focus more on the
> >core items.
>
> I use the term "beginners" because these kata are generally started at
> the beginning of many styles. "Juniors" works too. And yes, these
> kata are meant to focus on the most basic techniques.
Just to make sure we're on the same page, by juniors, I meant younger
students, not just beginners in general.
> >Sure, no real disagreement there, except I wonder if the value of
> >these forms as foundational is overestimated. Don't get me wrong,
I'm
> >not interested in having students rip through as many forms as they
> >can force into their brains, in fact, I've had students spend over a
> >year on our first form (approx. 40 moves according to how it would
> >probably be broken up in a karate-esque count). Considering that at
> >the time these kata were introduced, schools would have a relatively
> >small number of kata, and work them near obsessively.
>
> Good points. I personally don't think a student (or a teacher for
that
> matter) should ever be "finished" with a kata. Each kata can offer a
> lifetime of good information. I still practice the first kata I've
> ever learned as much and as hard as I practice the most recent kata.
Sure, and learning a new kata typically gives great insight into one
learned previously. And when one adds a weapon to the kata (or removes
or replaces one in a weapons kata), a whole new kata arises, and
hopefully new insights too.
> In Isshinryu we do not use the Pinan series at all. We use a series
of
> basic kicks and punches before dropping right into Seisan kata.
Isshinryu is a great example of what I am talking about. Shimabuku
takes kata from various styles, then creates a kata of his own as a
conclusion to the previous eight or nine (can't remember, please to
excuse), but didn't feel that Pinan were an improvement over just basics
practice.
> However, we practice these basics from the day we start Isshinryu
until
> the day we stop Isshinryu :) I have trained with schools who use the
> Pinan and most of them feel the same about those kata - they should be
> practiced from the beginning of ones training until the end.
Perhaps, but I just can't help but think that Pinan is sort of like
taking regular trips to the amusement park so you can brush up on your
driving skills at the bumper cars.
>
> >Are students being well-served by being taught a series of kata that
> >are possibly little more than junior-high phys. ed. exercises?
>
> Sure. Those kata may be simplified in terms of technique, but they
are
> still good fundamental techniques. They were simplified to be usable
> in a phys-ed setting, but that does not mean that they are intended
> only for phys-ed.
Not convinced. Tae bo is an example of something martial converted to
the realm of physical education but... Okay, I know, cheap shot.
How about this then. In CMA, there is a form called Tam Tui which has
been adopted by several different kung fu styles for basic training. In
most versions (there are several) it has over 200 moves. Unfortunately,
it is slow, stodgey and totally disconnected from how things would
actually have to go if you intended on using your techniques in a fight.
I learned it and dropped it years ago, feeling that my time spent
training on it was better used elsewhere.
veng...@my-deja.com
>Just to make sure we're on the same page, by juniors, I meant younger
>students, not just beginners in general.
I was thinking of both actually. They were intended to be used for
younger students, but I think they serve as a good foundation for those
who use them.
>Sure, and learning a new kata typically gives great insight into one
>learned previously. And when one adds a weapon to the kata (or
>removes or replaces one in a weapons kata), a whole new kata arises,
>and hopefully new insights too.
Yes.
>Isshinryu is a great example of what I am talking about. Shimabuku
>takes kata from various styles, then creates a kata of his own as a
>conclusion to the previous eight or nine (can't remember, please to
>excuse), but didn't feel that Pinan were an improvement over just
>basics practice.
This is true. In Isshinryu we do not learn the Pinan, except for a few
factions that have decided to add them. Shimabuku thought that the
basics were a better foundation than the Pinan. I tend to agree with
him, but I also see that the Pinan can be useful.
>Perhaps, but I just can't help but think that Pinan is sort of like
>taking regular trips to the amusement park so you can brush up on your
>driving skills at the bumper cars.
I tend to think of them as basic practice...
>Not convinced. Tae bo is an example of something martial converted to
>the realm of physical education but... Okay, I know, cheap shot.
Cheap shot, yes... But closer to the truth than most would like to
admit.
>How about this then. In CMA, there is a form called Tam Tui which has
>been adopted by several different kung fu styles for basic training.
>In most versions (there are several) it has over 200 moves.
>Unfortunately, it is slow, stodgey and totally disconnected from how
>things would actually have to go if you intended on using your
>techniques in a fight. I learned it and dropped it years ago, feeling
>that my time spent training on it was better used elsewhere.
It would have to depend on how you use it I suppose... I've never seen
the form you're talking about. All I can say is that I have found a
great deal of useful information in my kata. Then again, I've known
people who know the same kata I know who find little use for them...
It's all in how you use them. Some people can learn from kata, others
need a different path...
veng...@my-deja.com
Good points.
It's funny that people often criticize the Japanese for taking so much
from other cultures. It is in fact an incredible strength.
Gichoke
>
>>Sure, and learning a new kata typically gives great insight into one
>>learned previously. And when one adds a weapon to the kata (or
>>removes or replaces one in a weapons kata), a whole new kata arises,
>>and hopefully new insights too.
>
>Yes.
Aw, gee Venger.
An to think... for a second there I was takin you seriously.
> All I can say is that I have found a
>great deal of useful information in my kata.
Good for you, pal.Whatever works for ya.Meanwhile I'll be training for
fighting.
Gi
veng...@my-deja.com
>Aw, gee Venger.
>An to think... for a second there I was takin you seriously.
Drat... Missed my chance at being taken seriously by Gichoke.
>>All I can say is that I have found a
>>great deal of useful information in my kata.
>Good for you, pal.Whatever works for ya.Meanwhile I'll be training for
>fighting.
No, meanwhile you'll be watching people fight on your television
screen. We all know you don't actually train, Gi.
Gichoke
>
>>Good for you, pal.Whatever works for ya.Meanwhile I'll be training for
>>fighting.
>
>No, meanwhile you'll be watching people fight on your television
>screen. We all know you don't actually train, Gi.
I trained yo momma!!!
Gi