TaeKwonDo is for pussies
Shihan
In TKD you use protective gear.
What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
TKD is a sport not M.A
Webmaster
>In TKD you use protective gear.
>What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
>TKD is a sport not M.A
I am a 4th Dan in TKD and do NOT use protective gear. I was trained
without it. Now quit acting like a 2 year old and start acting like a
Martial Artist.
Chuck Sears
Shihan wrote:
> Fire2Hell wrote in message
> <199804060117...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> >Great...here we go again. Anyone like to comment??
> yeah TKD is for pussies it sucks
Hmmmmm.....this arouses my curiousity.
On what do you base this enlightened statement? Have you practiced TKD
in your life? I'm really interested in finding out why you think it
sucks. After all, it is only a martial art that traces its history back
over one thousand years (yeah, yeah, I know about 1965 and all that
stuff; I'm referring to the traditional Korean martial arts that TKD is
derived from); if it sucks so bad, I wonder how it managed to hang
around so long and terrify the living hell out of the Japanese samurai
who had to go up against it.
Or....could it be...possibly...that you speak from sheer ignorance? A
wise man, Grasshopper, engages his brain before putting his mouth (or
keyboard) in gear.
Jeong Kim
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Shihan wrote:
> In TKD you use protective gear.
> What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
Hmmmm. Just like olympic boxing right.
Chas
Chuck Sears wrote:if it sucks so bad, I wonder how it managed to hang
> around so long and terrify the living hell out of the Japanese samurai
> who had to go up against it.
Could you possibly reference this claim?
Thank you
Chas
Marshall Paul
Shihan wrote in message <891689520.506811@mn8>...
>What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
>
Was there a nose guard and I didn't get one? Man, I coulda been breathing
through two nostrils all them years before the surgery.
Marshall
Marshall Paul
Marshall Paul
Gryphon
Shihan wrote:
>
> In TKD you use protective gear.
Pardon me? Are you talking about Songahm or Olympic TKD? Perhaps
you're talking about ITF or WTF? I've seen people get nosebleeds and
bruises from hits WITH protective gear in TKD. I deign to imagine how
much worse it would have been without! If a person welcomes broken
noses and ribs, I chalk it up to simple stupidity!
Ryan "The Gryphon" Kelly
ATA Chil Geup (decided)
http://www.angelfire.com/sd/kilroy
Fire2Hell
Shihan
Fire2Hell wrote in message
<199804060117...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>Great...here we go again. Anyone like to comment??
The Jester
> TKD is a sport not M.A
No, TKD as it is widely practiced in the US is a sport. It was originally
an art of war developed by one of the Korean dynasty's armies.
>In TKD you use protective gear.
>What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
And what the hell's this mean? You have to break something to be
considered a martial artist? Well goddamn--let me go jump off a building
and break everything in my body...should be instant black belt in
something!! *Newsflash!!* Lots of MA's use pads! I practice jujitsu and
we use pads! Wanna call jujitsu fighters pussies? I'm sure the whole
Gracie family would like to disagree! I mean, WTF? Get a clue, bud.
Bill
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:35:58 +0200, "Shihan" <spe...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
>In TKD you use protective gear.
>What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
>TKD is a sport not M.A
>
>
And pussies love to flame.
Flame away!!!!!!
Lumbering Ox
In article <352845C8...@bigfoot.com>, Chuck Sears <Cse...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Hmmmmm.....this arouses my curiousity.
Hmmm TKD is for pussies and involves sucking.
Maybe he is referring to the marital art of TKD and not the martial one ;)
I'll go back into my cave now.
Shihan
The Jester wrote in message <01bd6104$aa4bcde0$50d0bbce@jester>...
>
>> TKD is a sport not M.A
>
>No, TKD as it is widely practiced in the US is a sport. It was originally
>an art of war developed by one of the Korean dynasty's armies.
>
>>In TKD you use protective gear.
>>What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
>
>And what the hell's this mean? You have to break something to be
>considered a martial artist? Well goddamn--let me go jump off a building
>and break everything in my body...should be instant black belt in
>something!! *Newsflash!!* Lots of MA's use pads! I practice jujitsu and
>we use pads! Wanna call jujitsu fighters pussies? I'm sure the whole
>Gracie family would like to disagree! I mean, WTF? Get a clue, bud.
The Gracies are pussies to, they are fags that like to lie on the ground
cuddling, hate those gay types.
>
John C. Leylegian
On 6 Apr 1998, The Jester wrote:
> > TKD is a sport not M.A
> No, TKD as it is widely practiced in the US is a sport. It was originally
> an art of war developed by one of the Korean dynasty's armies.
No, actually, TKD was an offshoot of Shotokan Karatedo. Some Koreans who
lived in Japan during the Japanese occupation of Korea during the first
half of this century studied Shotokan, and brought it back to Korea after
WWII. It doesn't go back centuries like a lot of "old guys" would have
you believe...
[\*
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| John C. Leylegian |
| Princeton University MAE Combustion and Energy Laboratory |
| j...@Princeton.EDU http://www.princeton.edu/~jcl/ |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| "My eyes seek reality, my fingers seek my veins..." |
| -Low Man's Lyric |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John C. Leylegian
On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Chuck Sears wrote:
> On what do you base this enlightened statement? Have you practiced TKD
> in your life? I'm really interested in finding out why you think it
> sucks. After all, it is only a martial art that traces its history back
> over one thousand years (yeah, yeah, I know about 1965 and all that
> stuff; I'm referring to the traditional Korean martial arts that TKD is
> derived from); if it sucks so bad, I wonder how it managed to hang
> around so long and terrify the living hell out of the Japanese samurai
> who had to go up against it.
TKD isn't derived from any ancient Korean MA. Most of them died out well
before the Japanese Occupation.
Of course, this doesn't change the fact that I think "Shihan" is a big
dumb horse's ass anyway... (:
John C. Leylegian
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Shihan wrote:
> The Gracies are pussies to, they are fags that like to lie on the ground
> cuddling, hate those gay types.
Zeeb!!! Welcome back!!! I thought it was you! (:
Jeong Kim
On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Gryphon wrote:
> Shihan wrote:
> >
> > In TKD you use protective gear.
> > What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
> > TKD is a sport not M.A
>
> Pardon me? Are you talking about Songahm or Olympic TKD? Perhaps
> you're talking about ITF or WTF? I've seen people get nosebleeds and
> bruises from hits WITH protective gear in TKD. I deign to imagine how
> much worse it would have been without! If a person welcomes broken
> noses and ribs, I chalk it up to simple stupidity!
>
> Ryan "The Gryphon" Kelly
> ATA Chil Geup (decided)
> http://www.angelfire.com/sd/kilroy
When I was in a tournament in California, I saw a Korean visitor compete
in a tourney. He attacked somebody in the finals and spun and back kicked
him so hard that he did some internal damage. The other guy had to go to
the hospital. As most TKD people can acknowledge, the padding is very
light. A good kick will NOT be absorbed by the pads.
BK
Quark
In article <891689520.506811@mn8>, spe...@bigfoot.com says...
>
>In TKD you use protective gear.
>What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
>TKD is a sport not M.A
yeah? With a post like this, I expect a high yellow to whip yer tail, bud.
We're talking sorry.
Q.
Shihan
John C. Leylegian wrote in message ...
>On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Chuck Sears wrote:
>
>> On what do you base this enlightened statement? Have you practiced TKD
>> in your life? I'm really interested in finding out why you think it
>> sucks. After all, it is only a martial art that traces its history back
>> over one thousand years (yeah, yeah, I know about 1965 and all that
>> stuff; I'm referring to the traditional Korean martial arts that TKD is
>> derived from); if it sucks so bad, I wonder how it managed to hang
>> around so long and terrify the living hell out of the Japanese samurai
>> who had to go up against it.
>
>TKD isn't derived from any ancient Korean MA. Most of them died out well
>before the Japanese Occupation.
>
>Of course, this doesn't change the fact that I think "Shihan" is a big
>dumb horse's ass anyway... (:
>
>cared the head off the Japanese Samurai warriors? Well kid you havent
done your homework
Roland Lee
Chuck Sears (Cse...@bigfoot.com) wrote:
: Shihan wrote:
: > Fire2Hell wrote in message
: > <199804060117...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
: > >Great...here we go again. Anyone like to comment??
: > yeah TKD is for pussies it sucks
: Hmmmmm.....this arouses my curiousity.
: On what do you base this enlightened statement? Have you practiced TKD
: in your life? I'm really interested in finding out why you think it
: sucks. After all, it is only a martial art that traces its history back
: over one thousand years (yeah, yeah, I know about 1965 and all that
: stuff; I'm referring to the traditional Korean martial arts that TKD is
: derived from); if it sucks so bad, I wonder how it managed to hang
: around so long and terrify the living hell out of the Japanese samurai
: who had to go up against it.
: Or....could it be...possibly...that you speak from sheer ignorance? A
: wise man, Grasshopper, engages his brain before putting his mouth (or
: keyboard) in gear.
Um, when did TKD ever scare the living Hell out of the Japanese? The Japanese
occupation of Korea occurred during a period in history when the Samurai were
more or less extinct. For your information, the Japanese occupation of Korea
was a fairly recent event in world history (around WWI until the end of WWII).
I somehow doubt that the occupying Japanese army were scared shitless by the
sight of a bunch of hambok wearing peasants coming at them armed with nothing
more than high kicks. Where did you learn your Korean history, dude?
And as for the moments in Korean history when the Japanese tried (unsuccess-
fully) to invade Korea...well, I doubt the Samurai, armed as they were with
swords, spears and bows and arrows, would be fazed by a ragtag army coming
at them with nothing more than kicks and punches. I don't know...call me
crazy but if I were a skilled martial artist in full armour, armed with a
naginata (Japanese spear) and with a brace of swords in my belt, I'd think
I'd be able to make short work of another martial artist, no matter how
skilled that other martial artist, if he was unarmed and just using punches
and kicks.
As for the claim that TKD is a thousand years old...well, how many other 'old'
martial arts can you name that do not teach weapons? In most 'traditional'
martial arts, those that were developed for the battlefield, the weapons
training of their curriculum was meant to be the functional portion of their
training...after all, how many soldiers do you know who would willingly go
into battle with nothing more than their bare hands instead of something sharp
and pointy to stick into someone. The empty hands portion of the training
was meant to either facilitate the learning of the weapons portion of the
training and/or was meant to be used only in desperate situations, i.e. when
you've been disarmed in battle and aren't able to flee the battlefield.
There are exceptions, of course...many styles of Jiu-Jitsu do not teach
weapons but Jiu-Jitsu was the empty-hand martial art of the Samurai and
they received their weapons training for a variety of other martial arts.
If TKD is really a thousand years old, what happened to the weapons part of
its curriculum. If it never had a weapons curriculum, what happened to the
weapons art that was taught side by side with TKD? If TKD was kept alive all
this time to fight the Japanese (once the time was ripe), why was the weapons
art not kept alive as well? One would imagine that the Korean patriots who
kept TKD alive for so long would have enough brain cells to deduce that it'd
be a lot easier to fight the Japanese using big knives and sticks rather than
one's bare hands and feet.
Like it or not, I think the truth of the matter is that TKD is a relatively
recent creation that's an amalgamation of Shotokan mixed in with some Taekyon
(whose age and origin are disputed, but whose purpose - martial art or
sport/game are) and some Shaolin (in the case of some of the other early
Korean Karate arts, i.e. Tang Soo Do).
--
Don't worry about temptation-as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.
-Old Farmer's Almanac
Roland S. Lee
Materials Science and Engineering
University of Pennsylvania
rl...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
David Lyons
Shihan wrote:
>
> Fire2Hell wrote in message
> <199804060117...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> >Great...here we go again. Anyone like to comment??
>
> yeah TKD is for pussies it sucks
It's for pussies it sucks? What about the pussies it doesn't suck? Is
it for them as well?
What we have here, folks, is another brilliant example of what's coming
out of our public school system.
--
David A. Lyons
Roland Lee
Jeong Kim (ez04...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Gryphon wrote:
: > Shihan wrote:
: > >=20
: > > In TKD you use protective gear.
: > > What=B4s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
: > > TKD is a sport not M.A
: >=20
: > Pardon me? Are you talking about Songahm or Olympic TKD? Perhaps
: > you're talking about ITF or WTF? I've seen people get nosebleeds and
: > bruises from hits WITH protective gear in TKD. I deign to imagine how
: > much worse it would have been without! If a person welcomes broken
: > noses and ribs, I chalk it up to simple stupidity! =20
: >=20
: > Ryan "The Gryphon" Kelly
: > ATA Chil Geup (decided)
: > http://www.angelfire.com/sd/kilroy
: When I was in a tournament in California, I saw a Korean visitor compete
: in a tourney. He attacked somebody in the finals and spun and back kicked
: him so hard that he did some internal damage. The other guy had to go to
: the hospital. As most TKD people can acknowledge, the padding is very
: light. A good kick will NOT be absorbed by the pads.
: BK=20
I used to do TKD as well and I have to agree that the padding is, indeed,
very light. A good kick will not be absorbed by the pads (and neither
will a good punch for that matter). While I don't think that Olympic
Style TKD is directly applicable for street-fighting/self-defense, I should
point out that people competing at the advanced levels can kick DAMN hard.
If you get the chance, watch a tournament. It's not really fighting (in
the street-fighting, reality point of view) but it's a sight to see and the
power and speed of the kicks is truly amazing. You would not want to get
kicked by these guys, believe me.
geo...@ptd.net
Yea, whenever i spar, i am looking for that broken nose and rib, so i
have to pay for the hospital bill to get it looked at, and possibly
miss work.. ever break some ribs.. not the easiest thing to deal
with.. Protective gear is just that.. protective, so you can come back
week to week and PRACTICE with someone.. Regardless of your martial
art..
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:35:58 +0200, "Shihan" <spe...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
>In TKD you use protective gear.
>What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
David Lyons
Shihan wrote:
>
> The Gracies are pussies to, they are fags that like to lie on the ground
> cuddling, hate those gay types.
Your tax dollars hard at work.
--
David A. Lyons
Roland Lee
geo...@ptd.net wrote:
He's got a point...what's the purpose of learning self-defense if the train-
ing method leaves you so injured that an untrained thug could defeat you?
: Yea, whenever i spar, i am looking for that broken nose and rib, so i
: >
NinjaWix
I got my wrist broke through a hand guard, broke someone's ribs through a
shield. Protective gear stops little annoying bruises but anytime you want to
take my turning kick through a Macho Headguard just pop on over.
---------------------------
/\
NinjaWix < o >
\/
---------------------------
http://members.aol.com/ninjawix/index.html
TravIsGod
I'm willing to pay for this type of entertainment.
Trav
Jeong Kim
On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, GEORGE wrote:
> John C. Leylegian wrote:
> >
> > On 6 Apr 1998, The Jester wrote:
> >
> > > > TKD is a sport not M.A
> >
> > > No, TKD as it is widely practiced in the US is a sport. It was originally
> > > an art of war developed by one of the Korean dynasty's armies.
> >
> > No, actually, TKD was an offshoot of Shotokan Karatedo. Some Koreans who
> > lived in Japan during the Japanese occupation of Korea during the first
> > half of this century studied Shotokan, and brought it back to Korea after
> > WWII. It doesn't go back centuries like a lot of "old guys" would have
> > you believe...
> >
> > [\*
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > | John C. Leylegian |
> > | Princeton University MAE Combustion and Energy Laboratory |
> > | j...@Princeton.EDU http://www.princeton.edu/~jcl/ |
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > | "My eyes seek reality, my fingers seek my veins..." |
> > | -Low Man's Lyric |
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Finally, someone who knows what the fuck he's talking about. One of the
> most highly regarded shotokan practitioners, the guy who killed the
> bulls, was Korean. He changed his name and went to live in Japan before
> the war.
That was Mas Oyama
BK
head rush
Shihan (spe...@bigfoot.com) wrote:
: Fire2Hell wrote in message
: <199804060117...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
: >Great...here we go again. Anyone like to comment??
: yeah TKD is for pussies it sucks
Butthead:
Ummm. Hey isn't "pussy" and "sucking" a GOOD thing? There must be a lot of
hot chicks at the TKD school.
Beavis:
Huh huh ha....hu ha huh. You said "sucking".
GEORGE
Nobody
> What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
>
>
>
Shihan,
Why do you feel that TKD is so inferior? What art do you practice
(just so I can understand your point of view better)? This isn't a
flame, though your post does seem like a screaming troll. I'd just like
to hear your entire argument. I've seen some TKD, I sparred awhile back
with a young fresh blackbelt. Very good with the feet but had absolutely
nothing to offer me on the floor. The kicks were pretty quick and strong
though.
Go ahead and help me to understand,
Nobody.
--
... rejoice in knowing that the taint of wisdom is wiped
clean as one aspires to become a true ignorant ...
NinjaWix
Someone said something a while back about how if TKD is so ancient and stuff,
how come it has no weapons techniques. I'd be interested to hear any
thoughts...
John C. Leylegian
On 7 Apr 1998, NinjaWix wrote:
> Someone said something a while back about how if TKD is so ancient and stuff,
> how come it has no weapons techniques. I'd be interested to hear any
> thoughts...
It's simple. TKD is not that ancient. It only dates back to the 1940's.
John "Cave paintings? Feh!"
John C. Leylegian
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Jeong Kim wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, GEORGE wrote:
>
> > John C. Leylegian wrote:
> > >
> > > On 6 Apr 1998, The Jester wrote:
> > >
> > > > > TKD is a sport not M.A
> > >
> > > > No, TKD as it is widely practiced in the US is a sport. It was originally
> > > > an art of war developed by one of the Korean dynasty's armies.
> > >
> > > No, actually, TKD was an offshoot of Shotokan Karatedo. Some Koreans who
> > > lived in Japan during the Japanese occupation of Korea during the first
> > > half of this century studied Shotokan, and brought it back to Korea after
> > > WWII. It doesn't go back centuries like a lot of "old guys" would have
> > > you believe...
> > >
> > Finally, someone who knows what the fuck he's talking about. One of the
> > most highly regarded shotokan practitioners, the guy who killed the
> > bulls, was Korean. He changed his name and went to live in Japan before
> > the war.
>
> That was Mas Oyama
Yup, the founder of Kyokushin (sp) Karate. Some of the heads of the Kwans
wanted him to come back to Korea and help the MA movement there, but he
refused, or that's a story I heard...
Jeong Kim
On 7 Apr 1998, NinjaWix wrote:
> Someone said something a while back about how if TKD is so ancient and stuff,
> how come it has no weapons techniques. I'd be interested to hear any
> thoughts...
> ---------------------------
> /\
> NinjaWix < o >
> \/
> ---------------------------
> http://members.aol.com/ninjawix/index.html
Actually, In our school, we start with the staff at about green belt
level. Then we go on to Korean short sticks and finally, the sword.
BK
John C. Leylegian
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 don...@istar.ca wrote:
> John C. Leylegian wrote:
>> No, actually, TKD was an offshoot of Shotokan Karatedo. Some
Koreans who >> lived in Japan during the > Japanese occupation of Korea
during the first >> half of this century > studied Shotokan, and brought
it back to Korea >> after >> WWII. It > doesn't go back centuries like a
lot of "old guys" would >> have >> you > believe...
> Now that is absolutely wrong. TKD was never an offshoot of shotokan.
> It was style that included some shotokan technique as well as using the
> kicks from an old Korean style called TaeKyon. It was actually
> developed to overcome shotokan techniques. Remember these people were at
> war and Korea was under Japanese rule for many years. DM
Tae Kyon consists of sweeping techniques in order to get a person to fall
to the ground, and occasional kick to try to hit the opponent's topknot.
It wasn't taught primarily as a martial art, and indigenous Korean MA's
had all but died out by that time anyway...
This history is well documented, and can be read in an interview with
Grandmaster Lee, Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan. He spoke of
training under a Master "Hunagoshi," who is actually Funakoshi, the
founder of Shotokan. The difference in pronunciation lay in the
differences between Korean (in which the interview was conducted) and
Japanese. Lee studied Karatedo (in Korean, Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do)
while a law student in Japan. After returning to Korea in the 40's, Lee
opened the Chung Do Kwan.
Gryphon
NinjaWix wrote:
>
> Someone said something a while back about how if TKD is so ancient and stuff,
> how come it has no weapons techniques. I'd be interested to hear any
> thoughts...
> ---------------------------
> /\
> NinjaWix < o >
> \/
> ---------------------------
> http://members.aol.com/ninjawix/index.html
Traditional TKD has no weaponry techniques because of the philosophy of
Hwarangdo, "the corps of flowering youth." In order to understand how
modern TKD came to be, it helps to understand Korean history, including
the institution of Hwarangdo.
This whole post is something that I find quite interesting though, since
part of my TKD studies has been the study of bahng mahng ee (jo staff),
jahng bahng (bo staff), sahng jeol bahng (nunchakus), as well as ho shin
sool (spontaneous street defense). My dojahng teaches a lot more than
tradition, though tradition is still at the core of what we learn, and
it is the most fundamental part.
Gryphon
John C. Leylegian wrote:
>
> On 6 Apr 1998, The Jester wrote:
>
> > > TKD is a sport not M.A
>
> > No, TKD as it is widely practiced in the US is a sport. It was originally
> > an art of war developed by one of the Korean dynasty's armies.
>
> lived in Japan during the Japanese occupation of Korea during the first
> half of this century studied Shotokan, and brought it back to Korea after
> WWII. It doesn't go back centuries like a lot of "old guys" would have
> you believe...
Uh, I know that TKD in its modern incarnation does not go back
centuries, but what about the influence of TaeKyon, which does? You can
give the Japanese all this credit for their influence on the art if TKD,
but the Koreans took Shotokan and made it their own with influences that
HAD been around for centuries.
The only way to understand the history of TKD is to understand the
history of ancient institutions: the Hwarangdo, the Korean army, the
Korean government, and the Korean people at large.
NinjaWix
>This whole post is something that I find quite interesting though, since
>part of my TKD studies has been the study of bahng mahng ee (jo staff),
>jahng bahng (bo staff), sahng jeol bahng (nunchakus), as well as ho shin
>sool (spontaneous street defense). My dojahng teaches a lot more than
>tradition, though tradition is still at the core of what we learn, and
>it is the most fundamental part.
I believe this may be a recent addition by the ATA. I can understand Karate
using Okinawan weapons like nunchaku but Korea? I've already had my go at the
ATA on some other thread but when I saw the ad for a nunchuck course it all
seemed a bit "let's be like Michalangelo". We've already talked over many times
how ineffective nunchaku actually are as weapons, and I know of no other TKD
organisation that has weapons in it syllabus. Granted, it might be quite
interesting, fun, and different, but is it practical? In many systems, Escrima
for example, the unarmed techniques share principles with the armed ones, and
each complements eachother. But TKD hardly lends itself to effective weapon
principles. In fact, what are the principles? Ahhhh, questions questions.
John C. Leylegian
On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Gryphon wrote:
> John C. Leylegian wrote:
> >
> > On 6 Apr 1998, The Jester wrote:
> >
> > > > TKD is a sport not M.A
> >
> > > No, TKD as it is widely practiced in the US is a sport. It was originally
> > > an art of war developed by one of the Korean dynasty's armies.
> >
> > No, actually, TKD was an offshoot of Shotokan Karatedo. Some Koreans who
> > lived in Japan during the Japanese occupation of Korea during the first
> > half of this century studied Shotokan, and brought it back to Korea after
> > WWII. It doesn't go back centuries like a lot of "old guys" would have
> > you believe...
> Uh, I know that TKD in its modern incarnation does not go back
> centuries, but what about the influence of TaeKyon, which does? You can
> give the Japanese all this credit for their influence on the art if TKD,
> but the Koreans took Shotokan and made it their own with influences that
> HAD been around for centuries.
What influences? Taekyon had all but died out by the 1950s. It is still
highly doubtful that General Choi knew taekyon. One Taekyon practitioner
was approached to do a deomnstration during that period of time.
According to the story, there were no other practitioners to be found.
The only influence is that more kicks were added. Other changes (e.g, the
adoption of a pull-over dobok, changing of the forms, etc.) were made
later to get TKD away from its Japanese roots. Even the colors of the
belts were changed.
If TKD had such long-stnding roots, why did they start out by using the
karategi, a distinctively Japanese invention, instead of a Korean costume?
Why were the forms originally used (and still used, by some) the old
Shotokan forms? Why were the original names for the art taught in the
Kwans (Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do) the Korean equivalents of the
Japaenese name "Karatedo?" Why were the belts (another Japanese
invention) originally the same colors as those for Shotokan?
Early TKD was made distinct from Karate in its heavier use of kicks.
Other than that, what else made it distinctive?
> The only way to understand the history of TKD is to understand the
> history of ancient institutions: the Hwarangdo, the Korean army, the
> Korean government, and the Korean people at large.
And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Many Koreans have tried to attach
some link to their past, but the fact is that the old ways had died out
long before this century.
John
Peter C. Everett
Jeong Kim (ez04...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: When I was in a tournament in California, I saw a Korean visitor compete
: in a tourney. He attacked somebody in the finals and spun and back kicked
: him so hard that he did some internal damage. The other guy had to go to
: the hospital. As most TKD people can acknowledge, the padding is very
: light. A good kick will NOT be absorbed by the pads.
That is true. That fact exposes the lie of "full contact." Only a
sociopath would train with unrestrained power while making contact,
with or without pads.
Proponents of non-contact training feel their method frees attackers
from having to modulate their power, and so can train at full power 100%
of the time. Proponents of contact training feel that their method
provides better feedback to an inadequate defense, and perhaps better
timing and distancing skills. Both are correct, and each methodology
needs to be aware of its weaknessess in order to devise ways to
compensate for them.
The fiction of "full contact" training is, IMO, very damaging to
the arts.
Enjoy,
Peter C. Everett
Roland Lee
Gryphon (kel...@nvc.net) wrote:
: NinjaWix wrote:
: >
: > Someone said something a while back about how if TKD is so ancient and stuff,
: > how come it has no weapons techniques. I'd be interested to hear any
: > thoughts...
: > /\
: > NinjaWix < o >
: > \/
: > ---------------------------
: > http://members.aol.com/ninjawix/index.html
: Traditional TKD has no weaponry techniques because of the philosophy of
: Hwarangdo, "the corps of flowering youth." In order to understand how
: modern TKD came to be, it helps to understand Korean history, including
: the institution of Hwarangdo.
: This whole post is something that I find quite interesting though, since
: part of my TKD studies has been the study of bahng mahng ee (jo staff),
: jahng bahng (bo staff), sahng jeol bahng (nunchakus), as well as ho shin
: sool (spontaneous street defense). My dojahng teaches a lot more than
: tradition, though tradition is still at the core of what we learn, and
: it is the most fundamental part.
: Ryan "The Gryphon" Kelly
: ATA Chil Geup (decided)
: http://www.angelfire.com/sd/kilroy
The purpose of the Hwarang (Hwarang-Do was the art they practiced, by the
way) was to prepare the Korean youth for the military. In many ways, it
was sort of like West Point, ROTC training in College, etc. So what you're
saying is that the ancient Koreans were teaching their youth to fight their
battles with nothing more than punches and kicks. Yeah, right. Even if
this were (briefly) the case, such idealistic notions would have rapidly
been cast aside in the face of having to deal with invaders armed with spears,
swords and projectile weapons. Do you have any idea what would have happened
if the Korean army tried to fight the Japanese using only empty handed
techniques (as you say were espoused by the Hwarang)? They'd get mown
down in a flurry of arrows before they could even close with the enemy.
For those lucky(?) few who managed to close the distance, a certain death
a spear or sword point awaited.
The truth of the matter is this: Japanese Karate developed from Okinawan
Karate. For whatever reason, the weapons portion of the Okinawan art did
not get transmitted to the Japanese portion (some say that the Japanese
considered the weapons portion of the Okinawan art, which used farming
implements, to be suitable only for peasants, so therefore, left it out,
some say that there was no need for the weapons portion of the art to be
transmitted, since the Japanese had weapons skills of their own). When
Japanese Karate was taught to the Koreans, they learned an empty hand art
and from this art, TKD evolved. It is highly doubtful if any indigenous
Korean martial arts have survived to this day.
keh...@yahoo.com
In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.980407...@catbert.ucdavis.edu>,
Jeong Kim <ez04...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>
> On 7 Apr 1998, NinjaWix wrote:
>
> > Someone said something a while back about how if TKD is so ancient and
stuff,
> > how come it has no weapons techniques. I'd be interested to hear any
> > thoughts...
> > ---------------------------
> > /\
> > NinjaWix < o >
> > \/
> > ---------------------------
> > http://members.aol.com/ninjawix/index.html
>
> level. Then we go on to Korean short sticks and finally, the sword.
>
> BK
Original TKD has no weapons. All of the weapons techniques were
borrowed (more like bastardized) from other more complete arts.
I agree with one of the earlier post, TKD(no matter what family or style) is
for pussys, but it is not the art that matters. What matters is what you do
with it.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
keh...@yahoo.com
In article <352A74...@nvc.net>,
kel...@nvc.net wrote:
>
> NinjaWix wrote:
> >
> > Someone said something a while back about how if TKD is so ancient and
stuff,
> > how come it has no weapons techniques. I'd be interested to hear any
> > thoughts...
> > ---------------------------
> > /\
> > NinjaWix < o >
> > \/
> > ---------------------------
> > http://members.aol.com/ninjawix/index.html
>
> Hwarangdo, "the corps of flowering youth." In order to understand how
> modern TKD came to be, it helps to understand Korean history, including
> the institution of Hwarangdo.
>
> This whole post is something that I find quite interesting though, since
> part of my TKD studies has been the study of bahng mahng ee (jo staff),
> jahng bahng (bo staff), sahng jeol bahng (nunchakus), as well as ho shin
> sool (spontaneous street defense). My dojahng teaches a lot more than
> tradition, though tradition is still at the core of what we learn, and
> it is the most fundamental part.
>
> Ryan "The Gryphon" Kelly
> ATA Chil Geup (decided)
> http://www.angelfire.com/sd/kilroy
>
Hwa-rang do is a complete warriors art. Comparing it to TKD is like comparing
Golden Delicious Apples with road apples. You obviously need to research the
Hwa-rang futher. Don't just except what you teach tells you. Get out and find
out for yourself. Think of you mind as a parachute. It works best when it is
open.
Jeong Kim
First of all, Taekyon is just a game. But fact is, in the Koryo dynasty
and maybe a bit earlier, a martial art form called Soo Bahk (or Soo Bahk
Rhee) co-evolved with the game. Soo Bahk was a full martial art
consisting of strikes, throws, and grappling. The Koryo dynasty was
extensive but the Korean martial arts date back about a thousand years
ago.
Second, the Kwans were developed before Shotokan had influence. Much
later. The different Kwans have a history that spans about 500 to about a
thousand years. Taekwondo was created in the 1950's or so as a
conglomeration of techniques made from the different Kwans with influences
from Shotokan. You might ask how the Kwans survived during the
occupation? Easy, they fled to remote parts of china (ie Manchuria) to
escape persecution and practiced Martial arts there. My Grandmaster
was born there (but he is Korean) and tells us how his masters (who are
also Korean) lived there to practice Martial arts during the occupation.
Although the art of Shotokan may have influence in the Korean martial
arts, they are by no means, direct derivations of them. Instead, the most
influencial martial arts to influence the Korean martial arts came from
Northern China during or before the Koryo dynasty.
George Szaszvari
In article <6gedq9$hkk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, keh...@yahoo.com says...
>Hwa-rang do is a complete warriors art. Comparing it to TKD is like
comparing
>Golden Delicious Apples with road apples. You obviously need to research
the
>Hwa-rang futher. Don't just except what you teach tells you. Get out and
find
>out for yourself. Think of you mind as a parachute. It works best when it
is
>open.
Golden Delicious are crap...try Cox's
--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
GEORGE
John C. Leylegian wrote:
> > That was Mas Oyama
>
> Yup, the founder of Kyokushin (sp) Karate. Some of the heads of the Kwans
> wanted him to come back to Korea and help the MA movement there, but he
> refused, or that's a story I heard...
>
I think the I Love Japan bumpersticker on his daihatsu would have gotten
him into a lot of trouble in post-war Korea. Nonetheless, he was a truly
great martial artist.
GEORGE
Jeong Kim wrote:
> Actually, In our school, we start with the staff at about green belt
> level. Then we go on to Korean short sticks and finally, the sword.
>
> BK
In our school, we can barely use chop sticks. What kwan do you belong
to?
GEORGE
You're a fucking hero behind that screen name, Mr. Homoerotica 1998.
GEORGE
Roland Lee wrote:
>
Japanese Karate developed from Okinawan
> Karate. For whatever reason, the weapons portion of the Okinawan art did
> not get transmitted to the Japanese portion (some say that the Japanese
> considered the weapons portion of the Okinawan art, which used farming
> implements, to be suitable only for peasants, so therefore, left it out,
> some say that there was no need for the weapons portion of the art to be
> transmitted, since the Japanese had weapons skills of their own).
More likely because in Tokyo in the 1920's, when all this was happening,
karate was seen as a form of physical exercise, and not a way of
fighting off raiders trying to steal your rice crop.
GEORGE
> > On 6 Apr 1998, The Jester wrote:
> >
> > > > TKD is a sport not M.A
> >
GEORGE
Jeong Kim wrote:
> Although the art of Shotokan may have influence in the Korean martial
> arts, they are by no means, direct derivations of them. Instead, the most
> influencial martial arts to influence the Korean martial arts came from
> Northern China during or before the Koryo dynasty.
One of the major changes in Shotokan in recent years is the introduction
of "Korean" kicks. I do think the taeguks and most of the dan poomse in
tkd were invented to get as far away as possible from the japanese
katas, and have weaknesses for that reason, but I like the fact that in
the Korean forms you find roundhouse kicks and spin kicks, which you
don't see in the Japanese katas. Further, the highest rank in WTF is 9
dan, and there are Americans who have achieved that rank. Can Shotokan
practitioners in the JKA or SKA say the same thing?
GEORGE
Peter C. Everett wrote:
>
> The fiction of "full contact" training is, IMO, very damaging to
> the arts.
Get over it.
Mike
;) Ever see that episode of Monty Python where the self defense
instructor is giving lessons? One guy keeps asking "yeah, but what
about pointed sticks?" They never get to pointed sticks but they do
cover bananas, strawberries, etc.
Seriously though, I have to agree with you. Strictly speaking Taekwondo
schools don't include weapons. The instructors that do teach weapons
are drawing from other arts, Hapkido, Kumdo, Karate or whatever. I
think its great if weapons are covered at what ever school or style a
person studies. Not for me though, 15+ years and I still can't do the
basics of Taekwondo correctly.
Mike
Marshall Paul
NinjaWix wrote in message >>part of my TKD studies has been the study of
bahng mahng ee (jo staff),
>>jahng bahng (bo staff), sahng jeol bahng (nunchakus), as well as ho shin
>>sool (spontaneous street defense>
>I believe this may be a recent addition by the ATA. I can understand Karate
>using Okinawan weapons like nunchaku but Korea? I've already had my go at
the
>ATA on some other thread but when I saw the ad for a nunchuck course it all
>seemed a bit "let's be like Michalangelo".
HU Lee told me personally in 1980 why the (then) ATA did not teach nunchaku.
He explained how easy it was to defend against and admonished us to train
harder. You are correct. Whatever sells... and the public is lapping it
up. Best sales pitch in the MA business.
Marshall
Richard Lancashire
> >Hwa-rang do is a complete warriors art. Comparing it to TKD is like
> comparing
> >Golden Delicious Apples with road apples.
> Golden Delicious are crap...try Cox's
Yeah, but you try telling the grocer you like eating Cox...
;oP
Rich
Jeong Kim
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, GEORGE wrote:
> Jeong Kim wrote:
> > Actually, In our school, we start with the staff at about green belt
> > level. Then we go on to Korean short sticks and finally, the sword.
> >
> > BK
>
> In our school, we can barely use chop sticks. What kwan do you belong
> to?
Moo Duk Kwan
BK
Jeong Kim
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Mike wrote:
> GEORGE wrote:
> >
> > Jeong Kim wrote:
> > > Actually, In our school, we start with the staff at about green belt
> > > level. Then we go on to Korean short sticks and finally, the sword.
> > >
> > > BK
> >
> > In our school, we can barely use chop sticks. What kwan do you belong
> > to?
>
> ;) Ever see that episode of Monty Python where the self defense
> instructor is giving lessons? One guy keeps asking "yeah, but what
> about pointed sticks?" They never get to pointed sticks but they do
> cover bananas, strawberries, etc.
>
> Seriously though, I have to agree with you. Strictly speaking Taekwondo
> schools don't include weapons. The instructors that do teach weapons
> are drawing from other arts, Hapkido, Kumdo, Karate or whatever. I
> think its great if weapons are covered at what ever school or style a
> person studies. Not for me though, 15+ years and I still can't do the
> basics of Taekwondo correctly.
>
> Mike
I think the WTF TKD schools and others do not usually have weapons
training as a curriculum. But the name TKD is used by many of TKD
predecessors, mainly the Kwans. These Kwans that TKD derived from were
full arts in themselves and in some Kwans, weapons training was mandatory.
There is Moo Duk Kwan TKD, Chung Do Kwan TKD, etc... and these Kwans
represent many factions of TKD. TKD in many respects is a generic name
for Korean martial arts in the united states. In Korea, all TKD is
registered at Kukkiwon headquarters and is much more centralized and
organized than here in the U.S.
BK
Har...@aol.com
In article <6gb71e$el7$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
rl...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Roland Lee ) wrote:
> at them with nothing more than kicks and punches. I don't know...call me
> crazy but if I were a skilled martial artist in full armour, armed with a
> naginata (Japanese spear)
Hmmm....I thought a japanese spear was a yari....a naginata is pretty much a
halberd with a curved blade....actually used quite different from the yari
John C. Leylegian
On Tue, 7 Apr 1998 keh...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hwa-rang do is a complete warriors art. Comparing it to TKD is like
> comparing Golden Delicious Apples with road apples. You obviously need
> to research the Hwa-rang futher. Don't just except what you teach tells
> you. Get out and find out for yourself. Think of you mind as a
> parachute. It works best when it is open.
And you have to remember that the Hwarangdo you train in has nothing to do
with the Hwarang of ancient Korea. Modern Hwarangdo is a 20th century
invention. You should do some research as well...
John C. Leylegian
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Jeong Kim wrote:
> I think the WTF TKD schools and others do not usually have weapons
> training as a curriculum. But the name TKD is used by many of TKD
> predecessors, mainly the Kwans. These Kwans that TKD derived from were
> full arts in themselves and in some Kwans, weapons training was mandatory.
> There is Moo Duk Kwan TKD, Chung Do Kwan TKD, etc... and these Kwans
> represent many factions of TKD. TKD in many respects is a generic name
> for Korean martial arts in the united states. In Korea, all TKD is
> registered at Kukkiwon headquarters and is much more centralized and
> organized than here in the U.S.
I curious. Which Kwans used to do weapons training? I'm pretty sure the
(1940's-50's) Chung Do Kwan didn't, or else I'd be learning it now. You
seem to indicate the Mu Duk Kwan did, were there any others?
Roland Lee
Har...@aol.com wrote:
: In article <6gb71e$el7$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Spear, halberd, whatever. It's been almost a decade since I last played
Dungeons and Dragons so I'm not up on the names of medieval weapons. Anyway,
they're both long sticks with something pointy at the end for gutting someone.
Especially someone who's foolish enough to attack the bearer of such a weapon
using punches and kicks.
rap...@iastate.edu
In article <MPG.f93aea39...@news.direct.ca>,
thean...@usa.net (Nobody) wrote:
>
> In article <891689520.506811@mn8>, spe...@bigfoot.com says...
> > In TKD you use protective gear.
> > What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
> > TKD is a sport not M.A
> >
It doesn't seem like you are talking about TKD. It sounds like you are talking
about sparring. They are not the same. SPARRING has protective gear and
rules because it is a sport. What do you expect a sport to be like?
Kevin
GEORGE
Jeong Kim wrote:
>
> On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, GEORGE wrote:
>
> > Jeong Kim wrote:
> > > Actually, In our school, we start with the staff at about green belt
> > > level. Then we go on to Korean short sticks and finally, the sword.
> > >
> > > BK
> >
> > In our school, we can barely use chop sticks. What kwan do you belong
> > to?
>
>
> BK
I like MDK. Mine is Won Hwa Do, also WTF.
John C. Leylegian
> First of all, Taekyon is just a game. But fact is, in the Koryo dynasty
> and maybe a bit earlier, a martial art form called Soo Bahk (or Soo Bahk
> Rhee) co-evolved with the game. Soo Bahk was a full martial art
> consisting of strikes, throws, and grappling. The Koryo dynasty was
> extensive but the Korean martial arts date back about a thousand years
> ago.
I'm not denying that. What I DO doubt is that they have survived through
the centuries and influenced the modern Korean MA to such a degree.
> Second, the Kwans were developed before Shotokan had influence. Much
> later. The different Kwans have a history that spans about 500 to about a
> thousand years. Taekwondo was created in the 1950's or so as a
> conglomeration of techniques made from the different Kwans with influences
> from Shotokan. You might ask how the Kwans survived during the
> occupation? Easy, they fled to remote parts of china (ie Manchuria) to
> escape persecution and practiced Martial arts there. My Grandmaster
> was born there (but he is Korean) and tells us how his masters (who are
> also Korean) lived there to practice Martial arts during the occupation.
> Although the art of Shotokan may have influence in the Korean martial
> arts, they are by no means, direct derivations of them. Instead, the most
> influencial martial arts to influence the Korean martial arts came from
> Northern China during or before the Koryo dynasty.
I can believe this to a degree for the Mu Duk Kwan, which definitely had
Chinese influence (Hwang Kee learned Chinese MA while working in
Manchuria), but I'd have a hard time believeing for some of the others.
Okay, if this is the case for, say, the Chung Do Kwan, another large
civilian school in Korea, please tell me how the following things
happened:
1. The forms taught in the CDK in the 40s and 50s are the Shotokan forms.
Jong Myung Hyun, a student of Lee, taught these forms to the leaders
of the Mu Duk Kwan, who still uses them to this day. If there were
older forms, why weren't they retained?
2. The Traditional CDK uniform was the karategi. Why not a traditional
Korean costume?
3. The CDK used the Shotokan belt rank system. Again, why not something
Korean in origin?
4. Grandmaster Lee Won Kuk claims to be the founder of the Chung Do Kwan.
Lee (as well as Ro Byung Jik of the Song Mu Kwan) learned Shotokan
while a law student in Japan.
John
Har...@aol.com
In article <6gg39q$5f7$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
rl...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Roland Lee ) wrote:
>
> Har...@aol.com wrote:
> : In article <6gb71e$el7$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> : rl...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Roland Lee ) wrote:
>
> : > at them with nothing more than kicks and punches. I don't know...call me
> : > crazy but if I were a skilled martial artist in full armour, armed with a
> : > naginata (Japanese spear)
>
> : Hmmm....I thought a japanese spear was a yari....a naginata is pretty much a
> : halberd with a curved blade....actually used quite different from the yari
>
> Dungeons and Dragons so I'm not up on the names of medieval weapons.
Ahhh...too bad.....I just spent the whole of last weekend training naginata
(and gee.....I never even played Dungeons and Dragons). I wouldn't be so
quick to assume that big sticks are absolutely invincible against open hand.
First, your medieval guy is going to have his hands full just handling the
naginata, so he is not going to be handling any additional weapons. As long
as he keeps his opponent at the end of the thing, he is OK...but he is also
not making any progress. The question comes in the ability to pick off your
opponent....to strike effectively, you have to open a little...and if your
opponent is fast, he can take advantage of that....
You know, there is a whole martial art built around emply hand against an
armed opponent....what was that called.....oh yeah...aikido.
HarlieG
FMOORE
Jeong Kim wrote:
>
> On 7 Apr 1998, NinjaWix wrote:
>
> > Someone said something a while back about how if TKD is so ancient and stuff,
> > how come it has no weapons techniques. I'd be interested to hear any
> > thoughts...
> > ---------------------------
> > /\
> > NinjaWix < o >
> > \/
> > ---------------------------
> > http://members.aol.com/ninjawix/index.html
>
> level. Then we go on to Korean short sticks and finally, the sword.
>
> BK
Weapons come from other Korean arts. TKD was created as an empty hand
art, a subset of it's parents.
don...@istar.ca
John C. Leylegian wrote:
>
>
> This history is well documented, and can be read in an interview with
> Grandmaster Lee, Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan. He spoke of
> training under a Master "Hunagoshi," who is actually Funakoshi, the
> founder of Shotokan. The difference in pronunciation lay in the
> differences between Korean (in which the interview was conducted) and
> Japanese. Lee studied Karatedo (in Korean, Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do)
> while a law student in Japan. After returning to Korea in the 40's, Lee
> opened the Chung Do Kwan.
>
Interesting, but try this one.
Dr. An Ja San has stated in his book of ancient Korea, "Chosun Moosa
Yonoung Jun" the biography of Korean warriors, that the Yoo Sul school
(which could now be considered Jujitsu) was known under the name of Soo
Bak-Gi or Taek Kyon. In historical documents relating to the martial
arts in Korea, it is interesting to discover that the third king of the
Lee Dynasty (1401 - 1408) actively recruited experts in Taek Kyon, Sirum
(Korean wrestling), and Soo Bak-Gi to help organize a strong army. Much
historical documentation seems to indicate that some of these forms of
open hand fighting may have been eventually exported to Japan and formed
the basis for Japanese Jujitsu and Karate. The decline of Korean
combat arts began near the end of the Lee Dynasty, with the final blow
coming during the Japanese occupation during 1909 - 1945 when it was
forbidden to practice any of the Korean arts. Taek Kyon was secretly
practiced by some dedicated stalwarts and passed on to a handful of
students. One of these was Choi Hong Hi the founder of modern day TKD.
Choi studied Taek kyon under the tutelage of the renowned Ok-Nam Han, 11
Dong. Choi Hong Hi was forced to join the Japanese army during the war
and was taught Shotokan by the Japanese. At which he reached a rank of
2nd Dan. "I began to teach Karate to my soldiers as a means of physical
and mental training. It was then that I raelized that we needed to
develop our own national martial art, superior in both spirit and
technique to Japanese Karate.....It was with this ambition in mind that
I began to develop NEW TECHNIQUES....by the end of 1954 I had nearly
completed the foundation of a new martial-art for Korea and in 1955, TKD
was born." Gen. Choi Hong Hi., from the encyclopdia of TKD, by Gen.
Choi Hong Hi.
DM
Roland Lee
Har...@aol.com wrote:
: In article <6gg39q$5f7$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Well, the original point I was trying to make was that if you have two
skilled martial artists, one armed with a spear, halberd, big pointy stick,
whatever, and another one armed only with his bare hands and feet, the guy
with the big stick is going to win. First off, he gets a couple of free
shots at skewering empty hand man whilst empty hand man attempts to close
the distance between them to use his hands and feet. Once (and if) empty
hand man succesfully engages, spear man can either disengage to establish
distance between him and empty hand man for him to use his spear, throw or
lock up empty hand man if empty hand man grabs his spear like they teach
in...aikido, or fight empty hand man mano a mano in which case it becomes
a coin toss. Now, there is no guarantee that spear man can re-establish
distance or lock/throw empty hand man once empty hand man closes but the
point that I was trying to make is that empty hand man is going to be the
target of various spear thrusts before he can even have a chance to put the
hurting to spear man so therein lies the advantage that spear man has over
empty hand man.
By the way, most of the techniques for empty hand against weapons wielding
person were devised as a last resort, i.e. you are either unable to escape
or unable to find another weapon to replace the one you've broken/lost/
dropped, etc. If a burglar breaks into your home, what would you feel more
comfortable confronting him with? That trusty Louisville slugger you've
got or your bare hands?
Jeong Kim
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, John C. Leylegian wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Jeong Kim wrote:
>
> > I think the WTF TKD schools and others do not usually have weapons
> > training as a curriculum. But the name TKD is used by many of TKD
> > predecessors, mainly the Kwans. These Kwans that TKD derived from were
> > full arts in themselves and in some Kwans, weapons training was mandatory.
> > There is Moo Duk Kwan TKD, Chung Do Kwan TKD, etc... and these Kwans
> > represent many factions of TKD. TKD in many respects is a generic name
> > for Korean martial arts in the united states. In Korea, all TKD is
> > registered at Kukkiwon headquarters and is much more centralized and
> > organized than here in the U.S.
>
> I curious. Which Kwans used to do weapons training? I'm pretty sure the
> (1940's-50's) Chung Do Kwan didn't, or else I'd be learning it now. You
> seem to indicate the Mu Duk Kwan did, were there any others?
>
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> | John C. Leylegian |
> | Princeton University MAE Combustion and Energy Laboratory |
> | j...@Princeton.EDU http://www.princeton.edu/~jcl/ |
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> | "My eyes seek reality, my fingers seek my veins..." |
> | -Low Man's Lyric |
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have a friend who does Ji Do Kwan and he learned the staff and knife.
In Moo Duk Kwan, I have done the staff and short stick.
BK
Jeong Kim
My experiences and knowledge pertain to some of the Kwans but Chung Do
Kwan I am not as familiar. But the forms taught in Chung Do
Kwan are not the same as in Moo Duk Kwan. My master uses forms taught to
him in Manchuria by his master. They are the Hwarangs and Choongmoo
forms. Also the Ho Po. I have seen Chung Do Kwan forms and they are not
the same as ours, or even remotely close.
Also, Moo Duk Kwan has many, many techniques emphasizing redirection and
soft techniques (more closely resembling northern chinese styles). We
learn aspects similar to Hapikido such as joint locks and throws and our
kicks vary with that of WTF TKD. As I said before, maybe Shotokan did
have influence in the Kwans and TKD but that does not mean that all
schools or instructors were affected. MDK was the largest Kwan in Korea
and had the most instructors. They were not organized under one leader
until recently but you will find many instructors who are not of Hwang
Kee's origin or control.
BK
Har...@aol.com
In article <6ggsgm$9ae$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
rl...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Roland Lee ) wrote:
>
> Well, the original point I was trying to make was that if you have two
> skilled martial artists, one armed with a spear, halberd, big pointy stick,
> whatever, and another one armed only with his bare hands and feet, the guy
> with the big stick is going to win.
Yes, I got your point, I'm just not sure I agree with it in all cases.
I am certainly no weapons expert here, but let's take naginata...which as I
said I spent all of last weekend training. As long as I keep the weapon out
in front of me - chudan (and I am assuming that we are one on one....none of
your sneaky friends coming in from behind). I am safe...and quite frankly,
so are you. If I want to strke at you, I have to close the ma-ai (and with a
big weapon....my what a lot of ma-ai to close.......ok, it's a joke.....you
have to be there).
So, I can strike shomen by raising the naginata to jodan...or I could strike
across my body (kesa) by taking the naginata back into a hasso position. or
I could strike a horizontal cut by 'flipping the blade into waki.....in all
cases, to strike I have to move that naginata from that chudan position (out
in front of me where I am safe) to a position where I can get some power to
actually strike. This leaves me open...for a split second (if I am
good)....but still open. Now remember, a naginata is a big weapon...not just
in length, but also in weight. Even if you are a big strong man, it is going
to tie up both your hands to wield it and keep it stable. Once I actually
strike, for my strike to be effective, I have to commit to it....no boxer
jabs here...a big heavy weapon is going to force you to follow through and it
is going to take your best body positioning to maintain your balance.
I'm not saying that it is easy if you are unarmed to close the distance and
get to me.....what I am saying is that is not entirely impossible and that
with good timing, there is ample opportunity both before and after the strike
to close the distance and either control the weapon and or the weapon
wielder.
>First off, he gets a couple of free
> shots at skewering empty hand man whilst empty hand man attempts to close
> the distance between them to use his hands and feet. Once (and if) empty
> hand man succesfully engages, spear man can either disengage to establish
> distance between him and empty hand man for him to use his spear, throw or
> lock up empty hand man if empty hand man grabs his spear like they teach
> in...aikido,
But we teach it both ways in aikido. If I have the weapon and I am
attacking, then you enter as nage and control the weapon and take it away
(with a lock or throw for me in the process....) or the other way around....I
am attacking you empty hand and you, as nage, have the weapon and maintain
your control of the weapon while throwing me....
>or fight empty hand man mano a mano in which case it becomes
> a coin toss. Now, there is no guarantee that spear man can re-establish
> distance or lock/throw empty hand man once empty hand man closes but the
> point that I was trying to make is that empty hand man is going to be the
> target of various spear thrusts before he can even have a chance to put the
> hurting to spear man so therein lies the advantage that spear man has over
> empty hand man.
I don't disagree about the advantage....it is just not 100%. You know at the
naginata seminar, we were talking to the Sensei about when naginata goes up
against shinai (kendo), the naginata always wins, right? I mean after all,
it definately has the advantage......She was real quick to point out that
that was not as true as we thought....that a good kendoist is very fast,
easily sees the openings...and actually because of the need to brace the
naginata against your body, you actually lose a lot of the length......
>
> By the way, most of the techniques for empty hand against weapons wielding
> person were devised as a last resort, i.e. you are either unable to escape
> or unable to find another weapon to replace the one you've broken/lost/
> dropped, etc. If a burglar breaks into your home, what would you feel more
> comfortable confronting him with? That trusty Louisville slugger you've
> got or your bare hands?
>
Agreed, but I kinda thought that was your scenario.....poor liitle korean
boys going unarmed agains big bad japanese samarai......maybe I misunderstood
HarlieG.
Jim
Gryphon <kel...@nvc.net> wrote in article <352A74...@nvc.net>...
> NinjaWix wrote:
> >
>
>
> Traditional TKD has no weaponry techniques because of the philosophy of
> Hwarangdo, "the corps of flowering youth." In order to understand how
> modern TKD came to be, it helps to understand Korean history, including
> the institution of Hwarangdo.
>
I am studying Hwa Rang Do and part of that study includes "Moo Gi Gong"
which includes over 108 different offensive and defensive weapons.
BTW, The ancient Korean warriors were known as Hwarang, not Hwarangdo.
"do" means "way of".
--
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Jim
John C. Leylegian <j...@yuma.princeton.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.3.95.98040...@yuma.princeton.edu>...
> And you have to remember that the Hwarangdo you train in has nothing to
do
> with the Hwarang of ancient Korea. Modern Hwarangdo is a 20th century
> invention. You should do some research as well...
>
>
>
How can you say that modern Hwa Rang Do has nothing to do with
the ancient Hwarang warriors of Korea?
Roland Lee
Har...@aol.com wrote:
(snip, snip, snip)
: >or fight empty hand man mano a mano in which case it becomes
: > a coin toss. Now, there is no guarantee that spear man can re-establish
: > distance or lock/throw empty hand man once empty hand man closes but the
: > point that I was trying to make is that empty hand man is going to be the
: > target of various spear thrusts before he can even have a chance to put the
: > hurting to spear man so therein lies the advantage that spear man has over
: > empty hand man.
: I don't disagree about the advantage....it is just not 100%. You know at the
: naginata seminar, we were talking to the Sensei about when naginata goes up
: against shinai (kendo), the naginata always wins, right? I mean after all,
: it definately has the advantage......She was real quick to point out that
: that was not as true as we thought....that a good kendoist is very fast,
: easily sees the openings...and actually because of the need to brace the
: naginata against your body, you actually lose a lot of the length......
: >
: > By the way, most of the techniques for empty hand against weapons wielding
: > person were devised as a last resort, i.e. you are either unable to escape
: > or unable to find another weapon to replace the one you've broken/lost/
: > dropped, etc. If a burglar breaks into your home, what would you feel more
: > comfortable confronting him with? That trusty Louisville slugger you've
: > got or your bare hands?
: >
: Agreed, but I kinda thought that was your scenario.....poor liitle korean
: boys going unarmed agains big bad japanese samarai......maybe I misunderstood
: HarlieG.
: -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
: http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Well, nothing is ever 100%. I was just saying that assuming both combatants
were skilled martial artists, things would tend to favour the guy with the
long weapon because he'd get a poke at the other guy before the other guy
could even begin to hurt him. I agree that a highly skilled martial artist
can close the distance and start hurting the guy with the long weapon. But
I was assuming the case of two combatants of roughly the same level of skill.
The point I was originally trying to make was that the notion of the poor
little Korean boys going unarmed against the Japanese samurai is completely
ridiculous. There were instances in Korea's history where Koreans managed
to repel attacks by the Japanese. To me, the image of an army of highly
skilled martial artists, trained since birth in the arts of war, steeped in
the warrior mystique, etc. of bushido being repulsed by empty handed fighters
is simply ridiculous. My contention was that the Koreans no doubt used
weapons as well and if that is the case, whatever happened to the weapons
arts of Korea?
Michael Gallagher
Shihan wrote in message <891689520.506811@mn8>...
>In TKD you use protective gear.
>What´s the prob TKD afraid to get a broken nose or rib?
>TKD is a sport not M.A
>
>
Amateur boxing also uses protective gear, a groin cup and a helmet. There's
no knockout or TKO; the ref gives a fighter a standing 8-count the minute he
takes a hit. What's the prob, they want to keep their fighters from being
hurt? ..... Yeah, they do.
Michael Gallagher
Lumbering Ox wrote in message <6g9ksr$5sb$1...@usenet54.supernews.com>...
> ..... TKD is for pussies and involves sucking.
>Maybe he is referring to the marital art of TKD and not the martial one ;)
>I'll go back into my cave now.
ROTFL!
Gryphon
> HU Lee told me personally in 1980 why the (then) ATA did not teach nunchaku.
> He explained how easy it was to defend against and admonished us to train
> harder. You are correct. Whatever sells... and the public is lapping it
> up. Best sales pitch in the MA business.
>
> Marshall
Oh, for crying out loud...! HU Lee has never evaluated his art in terms
of street effectiveness! Get real! The ATA is not the same
organization it was in 1980, and protech (weapons and spontaneous street
defense) was added because the MEMBERS AND RANKING SENIOR BLACK BELTS
WANTED IT!
For the millionth time (and I will plaster it all over this newsgroup if
need be), MA is not about fighting! Fighting is part of MA studies.
The reason that weaponry forms are studied is the same reason that
poome-sae are studied; not because of street effectiveness, or the
relative ability to defend against the techniques. It's exercise that
hones the body and mind. If poome-sae were evaluated on a peoples'
ability to defend against them, would they be taught at all? I don't
think so.
The ATA-STF-WTTU continues to grow, and it takes more than sales pitches
for any organization to grow--they have to prove their worth. I am
proud to belong to such an organization.
Ryan "The Gryphon" Kelly
ATA Chil Geup (decided)
http://www.angelfire.com/sd/kilroy
Gryphon
GEORGE wrote:
>
> Jeong Kim wrote:
> > arts, they are by no means, direct derivations of them. Instead, the most
> > influencial martial arts to influence the Korean martial arts came from
> > Northern China during or before the Koryo dynasty.
>
> of "Korean" kicks. I do think the taeguks and most of the dan poomse in
> tkd were invented to get as far away as possible from the japanese
> katas, and have weaknesses for that reason, but I like the fact that in
> the Korean forms you find roundhouse kicks and spin kicks, which you
> don't see in the Japanese katas. Further, the highest rank in WTF is 9
> dan, and there are Americans who have achieved that rank. Can Shotokan
> practitioners in the JKA or SKA say the same thing?
Thank you for a level-headed and reasonable post, GEORGE. It's nice to
see someone talk sensibly, as little as it happens on this NG.
Quark
In article <6gf5fn$hfo$9...@gte2.gte.net>, silv...@gte.net says...
>
>Jeong Kim wrote:
>> Although the art of Shotokan may have influence in the Korean martial
>> arts, they are by no means, direct derivations of them. Instead, the most
>> influencial martial arts to influence the Korean martial arts came from
>> Northern China during or before the Koryo dynasty.
>
>One of the major changes in Shotokan in recent years is the introduction
>of "Korean" kicks. I do think the taeguks and most of the dan poomse in
>tkd were invented to get as far away as possible from the japanese
>katas, and have weaknesses for that reason, but I like the fact that in
>the Korean forms you find roundhouse kicks and spin kicks, which you
>don't see in the Japanese katas.
You don't see them in Okinawan kata either, and that's the momma!
But these kinds of kicks can be (and are) practiced in kihon (basics drills),
and are used in kumite (sparring). I think you're fairly accurate in
attributing spin kicks to a Korean influence invading Japanese karate
(via open tourneys), but not the roundhouse (mawashi geri)- one of
Funakoshi's sons (I forget which one) fooled around with a roundhouse.
Not only that, I'm using entirely too many parentheses here :-).
>Further, the highest rank in WTF is 9
>dan, and there are Americans who have achieved that rank. Can Shotokan
>practitioners in the JKA or SKA say the same thing?
This is a strength? Seems to me to be more of a reflection on the joke
ranks TKD is (in)famous for.
There ARE tons of problems with the typical Japanese JKA bias against
non-Japanese and stuff, not to mention all kinds of political
in-fighting and splinter-groups in Shotokan, but I don't even wonna open
that can of worms.
Who cares anyhow? People that endlessly complain about these things
need a hobby. Stamp collecting- that's the answer.
I'm not sure what the question is, but that'll take care of it.
Get a life, get a day-job, and these damn Japanese biases lose their
grip on your psyche.
Q.
John C. Leylegian
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998 don...@istar.ca wrote:
> students. One of these was Choi Hong Hi the founder of modern day TKD.
General Choi does have his place in the development of TKD, but to call
him the founder is inaccurate at best. There were many people involved in
the development of TKD, especially the heads of the original five Kwans.
A good portion of the General's prominence stemmed from his military
influence, always a good thing to have in a military state.
LaughingBoy
On Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:04:09 -0400, "John C. Leylegian"
<j...@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>
>What influences? Taekyon had all but died out by the 1950s. It is still
>highly doubtful that General Choi knew taekyon. One Taekyon practitioner
>was approached to do a deomnstration during that period of time.
>According to the story, there were no other practitioners to be found.
While it may be difficult to prove or disprove that Choi knew
t'aekyon, is really pointless. So he didn't know. Big deal. It's not
like Korea did not have a history of martial arts. They had them
before the occupation, some stuff may have been lost, who knows. But
it's really doubtful that a country could forget something like it's
MA, speech, customs, folk lore, etc. in 30 or 40 years. They had a
basis to start from that had been used in portions for many, many
years.
>
>The only influence is that more kicks were added. Other changes (e.g, the
>adoption of a pull-over dobok, changing of the forms, etc.) were made
>later to get TKD away from its Japanese roots. Even the colors of the
>belts were changed.
There are other styles of Korean MA that have kicking. It's not like
somebody just said, "Hey!, let's steal another countries MA (that was
brought over and given to them by someone else!) and just add a whole
bunch of things called kicks and call it our own! Yeah!, Taekwondo!
Taekwondo!".
Not to realistic huh?
So...Japan was the only country that wore outfits that resemble a gi?
No other country ever had anything like this? I suppose Japan is soooo
far removed from any other "cousin" Asian countries that it invented
rice too.
>
>If TKD had such long-stnding roots, why did they start out by using the
>karategi, a distinctively Japanese invention, instead of a Korean costume?
>Why were the forms originally used (and still used, by some) the old
>Shotokan forms? Why were the original names for the art taught in the
>Kwans (Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do) the Korean equivalents of the
>Japaenese name "Karatedo?" Why were the belts (another Japanese
>invention) originally the same colors as those for Shotokan?
I have no idea where belts and belt rankings come from. Did the
Japanese invent these too? Shoalin monks never wore colored belts to
denote anything?
As for forms, I've heard that Shotokan played a major part in the 1950
redefinition of TKD (which was supposed to have been a culmination of
many different Korean MA theories and styles to try to gain some sort
of consistancy and country reunification after the occupation) but
then I've also heard that some of these forms and the techniques used
in them also came from older Korean forms. Ancient? I have no idea, so
I won't bullshit'cha.
>Early TKD was made distinct from Karate in its heavier use of kicks.
>Other than that, what else made it distinctive?
What makes a hard style different from other hard styles. Shouldn't
there only be one "hard" style and if any other style uses, oh say, a
punch...well now aren't they a copy of the former? Not too good of an
argument.
>
>> The only way to understand the history of TKD is to understand the
>> history of ancient institutions: the Hwarangdo, the Korean army, the
>> Korean government, and the Korean people at large.
>
>And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Many Koreans have tried to attach
>some link to their past, but the fact is that the old ways had died out
>long before this century.
>
I'll have to agree with you there. I think that Korea in trying to
heal the wounds of the Japanese occupation have tried to glorify their
past and seek some common ground with the indignation they suffered
during the occupation.
Just like the Scots with their last subjugation by England. Back then
highland people were 'hillers', NOW everyone wants to be a highlander
because it is something that is remembered with fondness and old
glory.
Oh yeah...just my opinions...
Eric Berge
> GEORGE wrote:
> > One of the major changes in Shotokan in recent years is the introduction
> > of "Korean" kicks. I do think the taeguks and most of the dan poomse in
> > tkd were invented to get as far away as possible from the japanese
> > katas, and have weaknesses for that reason, but I like the fact that in
> > the Korean forms you find roundhouse kicks and spin kicks, which you
> > don't see in the Japanese katas. Further, the highest rank in WTF is 9
> > dan, and there are Americans who have achieved that rank. Can Shotokan
> > practitioners in the JKA or SKA say the same thing?
1) the SKA has 5 dan ranks.
2) there are more Caucasians than Asians holding 5th dan from Oshima
(including a couple of Frenchmen and at least one Israeli).
3) I can't speak for the JKA, but I never heard anyone in the SKA
express anything resembling a desire to turn the organization
into the kind of comical belt-mill that many TKD organizations
have become.
Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
Marshall Paul
TYRONE100 wrote in message
<199804120018...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>yes it is
Been on vacation? Have you Shihan?
Marshall
CJ Lim Sait Kiat
As far as i know, there is no such thing as a particular martial art
skill is useless or one martial art is more superior than the others.
Basically, knowledge is just knowledge. It is the man who uses the
knowledge that count. Think about it.
There is this saying that TKD is ineffective in real combat becos of the
way it is taught. Nowadays, TKD practitioners enjoy the "luxury" of
wearing protective gears that they forget what is the real feeling of
being hit. In a real streetfight, one fight with only one's bare body( i
mean unprotected). When the assailant manages to hit one, the outcome of
this engagement depends a lot on how much punishment one can take. If
oen cannot take the punishment that is given by the assailant, then no
matter how fast or how powerful one is, one will be defeated.
Also, TKD practitioner must not take for granted the rules imposed
during tournament. Very often, one may become too familiar with these
rules that when it comes to real fighting, one may overlook some area of
defence.
Therefore i concluded that until now there is no one system of self
defense that is perfected by man. This is becos human being is by nature
imperfect. However we were bestowed with the ability to think and refine
our knowledge, so let us discuss more on the areas where we can improve
on the shortcoming rather than arguing about the origin and history of
our art...
Hornet,
let there be peace among mankind...
TYRONE100
yes it is
Trn0
Gryphon <kel...@nvc.net> wrote:
>For the millionth time (and I will plaster it all over this newsgroup if<BR>
>need be), MA is not about fighting! Fighting is part of MA studies. <BR>
This is a patently ludicrous claim. By definition, a martial art must be about
fighting. Take the least combat-oriented art you can think of...Tai Chi Chuan,
for example. That translates "supreme ultimate..." what? meditation? dance?
exercise? No, FIST.
Any MA contains an organized body of fighting techniques. At the very core of
an MA, one finds those techniques and the ways in which they are systematically
applied to...(drum roll, please)...FIGHTING!! No surprises here. It is, after
all, a *martial* art.
Historically, the roots of most MAs are lost to us, but of those we know, how
many emerged from a quest for enlightenment and how many emerged from a quest
for a better way to win fights? Self-knowlege, self-control,
enlightenment...these are rather less immediate concerns that become issues if
the fighter lives long enough.
But the root and ground of the MAs is, and must be, fighting. Any so-called MA
that is not dedicated first and foremost to fighting may be a lot of beneficial
things -- a cultural heritage, a glorious tradition, a good workout, a pursuit
of enlightenment, etc., but it is NOT a *martial* art.
-TimN
Tuccitto2
>>For the millionth time (and I will plaster it all over this newsgroup if
>
>
>
>This is a patently ludicrous claim. By definition, a martial art must be
>about
>fighting.
Please remember that during the transition in Japan from a feudal to a modern
culture, there was a distinction made by changing the styles' names from
"jutsu" to "do" to indicate the new orientation of thinking. It did not
necessarily diminish the fighting techniques inherent in the new systems, but
did acknowledge that the study of those systems was different in focus. I
don't think anyone could argue that kyudo couldn't be particularly deadly in
"real" combat, but when was the last time you saw a kyudo practitioner facing
off against a mugger in an alley? Maybe not the best comparison, but you get
the idea.
For those who shout from the rooftops that MA is NOT about fighting, well, stop
punching and kicking then and meditate to your hearts content. Y'know clergy
of all denominations have used that as their particular route to enlightenment
for years, and never needed to break a brick with their faces to help it along.
For those who scream that MA is ALL ABOUT fighting and NOT about the other,
less tangible benefits, ask yourself what the old masters were really known
for? Ass kicking 24/7, or having developed themselves into perfect, sterling
examples of character? (Okay, they DID do some ass kicking too, but that's not
the point :) )
For all, please realize that MA IS about fighting, but IS NOT about violence.
There is a difference when you think about it.
Gryphon
> Any MA contains an organized body of fighting techniques. At the very core of
> an MA, one finds those techniques and the ways in which they are systematically
> applied to...(drum roll, please)...FIGHTING!! No surprises here. It is, after
> all, a *martial* art.
> Historically, the roots of most MAs are lost to us, but of those we know, how
> many emerged from a quest for enlightenment and how many emerged from a quest
> for a better way to win fights? Self-knowlege, self-control,
> enlightenment...these are rather less immediate concerns that become issues if
> the fighter lives long enough.
> But the root and ground of the MAs is, and must be, fighting. Any so-called MA
> that is not dedicated first and foremost to fighting may be a lot of beneficial
> things -- a cultural heritage, a glorious tradition, a good workout, a pursuit
> of enlightenment, etc., but it is NOT a *martial* art.
>
> -TimN
Perhaps I should clarify myself here. My beliefs about MA can best be
summed up by a prevalent Shaolin philosophy: One who knows how to fight
but knows nothing else is incomplete.
I think that most people would agree with me if I made the statement,
"The Shaolin temples and monks were paragons of true MA instruction
until their ultimate demise in the 1920's." Bearing that in mind, how
come the monks were fighters AND scientists AND doctors AND philosophers
AND librarians? If one was an excellent fighter, but negelected
academic studies, one would simply never be consdiered a master in a
Shaolin temple--period. End of story. So yes, MA is about fighting,
but one can be a fighter and still be far from an artist.
NinjaWix
Ryan, "the decidedly ATA, Kelly" said:
>I think that most people would agree with me if I made the statement,
>"The Shaolin temples and monks were paragons of true MA instruction
>until their ultimate demise in the 1920's." Bearing that in mind, how
>come the monks were fighters AND scientists AND doctors AND philosophers
>AND librarians? If one was an excellent fighter, but negelected
>academic studies, one would simply never be consdiered a master in a
>Shaolin temple--period. End of story. So yes, MA is about fighting,
>but one can be a fighter and still be far from an artist.
What is it with these Shaolin Monks? I never saw 'em. Everyone reckons they
were damned hard blah blah blah but we're not going to live our lives like they
did. Are you suggesting that people doing ATA TKD aren't just learning to
fight, but are also becoming philosophers, teachers, all round general nice
guys? Chyeah. I think it's a bit easy to read too much into these martial arts
sometimes.
All the stuff about expanding your mind and that bollocks doesn't come from
sitting around talking about lotus blossoms, it comes from training your arse
off and learning about yourself. And training your arse off involves fighting.
LaughingBoy
On 13 Apr 1998 22:24:03 GMT, ninj...@aol.com (NinjaWix) wrote:
>Ryan, "the decidedly ATA, Kelly" said:
>
>>I think that most people would agree with me if I made the statement,
>>"The Shaolin temples and monks were paragons of true MA instruction
>>until their ultimate demise in the 1920's." Bearing that in mind, how
>>come the monks were fighters AND scientists AND doctors AND philosophers
>>AND librarians? If one was an excellent fighter, but negelected
>>academic studies, one would simply never be consdiered a master in a
>>Shaolin temple--period. End of story. So yes, MA is about fighting,
>>but one can be a fighter and still be far from an artist.
>
>What is it with these Shaolin Monks? I never saw 'em. Everyone reckons they
>were damned hard blah blah blah but we're not going to live our lives like they
>did. Are you suggesting that people doing ATA TKD aren't just learning to
>fight, but are also becoming philosophers, teachers, all round general nice
>guys? Chyeah. I think it's a bit easy to read too much into these martial arts
>sometimes.
I think that one has to remember that the monks in general were
religous people first and foremost. These monks also came to the
realization that one cannot ignore the needs of the body by letting it
go to waste. So part of their principles became to work the body to
keep it strong, to work the mind to keep it strong so that the body as
a whole could work in harmony.
That was the belief of their religion.
Does that mean that people taking MA's today should be the same way?
Probably not given that the Judeo-Christian belief views these other
religions as wrong. Western ideologies have taken the martial aspect
of MA's originating from Eastern countries and focused on that. That
way their Christian beliefs are not being risked or changed.
But one has to admit that following certain principles displayed by
the Shaolin monks are not bad principles for the advancement of human
compassion and care. Why be nice? Why become smarter? Why display
courtesy? Why have compassion? Why treat others as you like to be
treated? Why help others? JUST GO KICK THEIR ASSES!
Sounds kind of odd, eh?
If you are just using you martial art as a tool that you can use to
whip ass, that's fine...cause that's fine for you. But not everyone
takes MA just so they can whup ass.
NinjaWix
>If you are just using you martial art as a tool that you can use to
>whip ass, that's fine...cause that's fine for you. But not everyone
>takes MA just so they can whup ass.
Oh I wasn't suggesting that at all. What I was saying is that I find it amusing
when people say that their specific goal in learning martial arts is to do all
this stuff and that fighting is only a minor part of it. The fighting is the
entirety, the other stuff is developed by yourself without noticing it. If you
sit around going "right, I'm going to go to class and become a better person
tonight" then it's just a sad little delusion. All you can do is train as hard
as you can and let yourself develop. You shouldn't even notice.
GEORGE
Quark wrote:
>
> In article <6gf5fn$hfo$9...@gte2.gte.net>, silv...@gte.net says...
> >
> >Jeong Kim wrote:
> >> Although the art of Shotokan may have influence in the Korean martial
> >> arts, they are by no means, direct derivations of them. Instead, the most
> >> influencial martial arts to influence the Korean martial arts came from
> >> Northern China during or before the Koryo dynasty.
> >
> >of "Korean" kicks. I do think the taeguks and most of the dan poomse in
> >tkd were invented to get as far away as possible from the japanese
> >katas, and have weaknesses for that reason, but I like the fact that in
> >the Korean forms you find roundhouse kicks and spin kicks, which you
> >don't see in the Japanese katas.
>
> But these kinds of kicks can be (and are) practiced in kihon (basics drills),
> and are used in kumite (sparring). I think you're fairly accurate in
> attributing spin kicks to a Korean influence invading Japanese karate
> (via open tourneys), but not the roundhouse (mawashi geri)- one of
> Funakoshi's sons (I forget which one) fooled around with a roundhouse.
> Not only that, I'm using entirely too many parentheses here :-).
He did, but it's not in any of the katas.
>
> >Further, the highest rank in WTF is 9
> >dan, and there are Americans who have achieved that rank. Can Shotokan
> >practitioners in the JKA or SKA say the same thing?
>
> This is a strength? Seems to me to be more of a reflection on the joke
> ranks TKD is (in)famous for.
No, more an example of the openness of TKD to non-Koreans.
LIBERATOR
I'm laughing, so loud.
You fight Herb Perez and then come back and say that.
LaughingBoy
On 6 Apr 1998 18:31:10 GMT, rl...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Roland Lee )
wrote:
>Um, when did TKD ever scare the living Hell out of the Japanese? The Japanese
>occupation of Korea occurred during a period in history when the Samurai were
>more or less extinct. For your information, the Japanese occupation of Korea
>was a fairly recent event in world history (around WWI until the end of WWII).
>I somehow doubt that the occupying Japanese army were scared shitless by the
>sight of a bunch of hambok wearing peasants coming at them armed with nothing
>more than high kicks. Where did you learn your Korean history, dude?
Good job...Korea was occupied by the Japanese.
>And as for the moments in Korean history when the Japanese tried (unsuccess-
>fully) to invade Korea...well, I doubt the Samurai, armed as they were with
>swords, spears and bows and arrows, would be fazed by a ragtag army coming
>at them with nothing more than kicks and punches. I don't know...call me
>crazy but if I were a skilled martial artist in full armour, armed with a
>naginata (Japanese spear) and with a brace of swords in my belt, I'd think
>I'd be able to make short work of another martial artist, no matter how
>skilled that other martial artist, if he was unarmed and just using punches
>and kicks.
Nations of Korea were able to defend themselves from China and Japan
at different time. Get rid of your romantic ideas of Japanese being
the only country that were able to armor themselves and use weapons.
Now you're just being ignorant. I also think that there were many,
many peoples that would have ate Samuri warriors for lunch. Just ask
Genghis....
>As for the claim that TKD is a thousand years old...well, how many other 'old'
>martial arts can you name that do not teach weapons? In most 'traditional'
>martial arts, those that were developed for the battlefield, the weapons
>training of their curriculum was meant to be the functional portion of their
>training..
Well don't forget to mention that most of famous weapons, except for
swords, come from being created by poor people while living under
tyrants so they could protect themselves. Look at a lot of Chinese and
Okinawan weapons, excluding (like I said) swords, knives, spears.
You have chains, rice beaters, grain cutters, oars, staffs, etc.
>after all, how many soldiers do you know who would willingly go
>into battle with nothing more than their bare hands instead of something sharp
>and pointy to stick into someone. The empty hands portion of the training
>was meant to either facilitate the learning of the weapons portion of the
>training and/or was meant to be used only in desperate situations, i.e. when
>you've been disarmed in battle and aren't able to flee the battlefield.
>There are exceptions, of course...many styles of Jiu-Jitsu do not teach
>weapons but Jiu-Jitsu was the empty-hand martial art of the Samurai and
>they received their weapons training for a variety of other martial arts.
>If TKD is really a thousand years old, what happened to the weapons part of
>its curriculum. If it never had a weapons curriculum, what happened to the
>weapons art that was taught side by side with TKD? If TKD was kept alive all
>this time to fight the Japanese (once the time was ripe), why was the weapons
>art not kept alive as well? One would imagine that the Korean patriots who
>kept TKD alive for so long would have enough brain cells to deduce that it'd
>be a lot easier to fight the Japanese using big knives and sticks rather than
>one's bare hands and feet.
TKD is a new art. Anyone that disagrees needs to check their history.
TKD is based upon martial art concepts that were a part of Korea's
identify for many, many years as well as influences from others
styles. Just because the name is new does not mean that there wasn't
history and technique to draw off of when coming up with a new "name"
to bring many schools and teachers under one national banner. There
were many teachers in the past of Korea's military, peasant and
royalty that taught arts of hand to hand fighting and weaponry. These
arts are still there to learn, they just haven't been mass marketed
like TKD has from Korea and within the US. TKD is Korea's recognized
MA, so a lot of thought and effort go into promoting this style
abroad. It's truly too bad for TKD.
>Like it or not, I think the truth of the matter is that TKD is a relatively
>recent creation that's an amalgamation of Shotokan mixed in with some Taekyon
>(whose age and origin are disputed, but whose purpose - martial art or
>sport/game are) and some Shaolin (in the case of some of the other early
>Korean Karate arts, i.e. Tang Soo Do).
pretty good post.
==================================================
We have enough youth, how about Fountain of Smart?
==================================================
KteDo
First of all, I fins the title for this post to be disgraceful, not matter what
you think of TKD. No matter how much you disagree with someone, or dislike
something, you should never be disrescpectful.
>You fight Herb Perez and then come back and say that.
Although I don't believe Herb Perez is a terribly frightning fighter, I
beleve that he is an extremely intelligent man. In his series of articles in
Black Belt Magazine, he researched the origin of TKD, and I found it to be
excellent.
According to Perez, TKD is in fact a product of Korean's traveling to Japan
and bringing back Karate. I find this to be the most believable and best
documented argument as to the begings of TKD. I'm not going to argue his
point, you can read the article.
Even though TKD appears to be an offshoot of Karate, it has created its own
distinctive traits. It has established an organized set of rules for
competition, and devloped spinning, flying, exotic kicks that are alien to
anything found in karate.
I do not study TKD, and I don't find TKD practioners to be very good
fighters, but that may only be in my area. However, I can admire TKD as a
sport, and there are definetely plenty of manuever that a TKD practioner can
perform that I would't even dream of attempting.
Please don't be offended of my definition of TKD as a sport. I consider Judo
(Which I have nothing but admiration for), boxing, and wrestling all to be
sports, a defintion which does not make them anything less than what they are.
Ravi Kiran
See?!? This is exactly why I want separate NG's for each country's
styles!
LIBERATOR
*LMAO*