Badass Karate (-Do?)
Richard Parry
There have been many claims to strong martial arts, weak martial arts,
hard arts, soft arts, easy arts, complex arts, ...
I want to know what everyone's opinion on the toughest arts are. My
personal favourites are Mouy Thai (or kickboxing), Kyokushinkaikan
Karate, some Kempo styles, and some Chinese styles.
What's the definition of `The World's Toughest'? Well, you decide, but
some guidelines are good fitness, full contact fighting, and mind over
body training. A good philosophy is also needed to temper the skills.
I don't want to step on anyone's toes here; if you think your style is
harder than any I've said, say so, and say why. If you think a hard
style isn't important, say so, and say why.
You _could_ say I'm doing a bit of a survey...
Later!
scott taddiken
>I want to know what everyone's opinion on the toughest arts are. My
>personal favourites are Mouy Thai (or kickboxing), Kyokushinkaikan
>Karate, some Kempo styles, and some Chinese styles.
>
>What's the definition of `The World's Toughest'? Well, you decide, but
>some guidelines are good fitness, full contact fighting, and mind over
>body training. A good philosophy is also needed to temper the skills.
>
I think that boxing and sumo should fit in there somewhere.
I've heard about a game played in Wales, in which two people grab each other
by the shoulders and kick each other repeatedly in the shins. With hard shoes
on. The loser is the first to disengage. It's not clear that this is a
martial art, but it certainly is the most excruciating combat-type game I've
ever heard of.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Taddiken, University of Kentucky
wharfie
A hard style isn't important because there are limits to how
much external physical strength a person can generate, and as that person
ages this strength will vanish. A hard style isn't important because
there's no reason to become injured or injure others merely to train. A
hard style isn't important because you can get to the same place without all
that _effort_ and still have most of your body intact...
`The World's Toughest' ? I've heard that a true Tai Chi master
is unbeatable... I've seen aikido that could not be touched... Who knows?
Richard A Shandross
>
>There have been many claims to strong martial arts, weak martial arts,
>hard arts, soft arts, easy arts, complex arts, ...
>
>I want to know what everyone's opinion on the toughest arts are. My
Far and away, the hardest art is living... living at one's full capacity, using
all of your natural powers: full use of the mind, being in touch with all your
emotions, and developing your spirit. Furthermore, each of these being in a
state of dynamic balance which leads to a state of continuing health and
growth.
Now *there's* some badass Karate for you; some real Kung Fu in the true sense
of the meaning.
If you don't think that's tough, I ask you how many people do you know - what
percentage, for that matter - who really do that. Really. It takes testicular
and ovarian fortitude beyond that displayed by most.
Rich
Tom Swiss (not Swift, not Suiss, Swiss!)
>In article <720667...@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> par...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>>If you think a hard style isn't important, say so, and say why.
>
> A hard style isn't important because there are limits to how
>much external physical strength a person can generate, and as that person
>ages this strength will vanish.
Technique is important in hard styles too, and continual training
reducing the loss of strength. I've sparred with men in their 60's who
could kick my butt up and down the floor. Great strength is not necessary
to be successful in hard styles.
>A hard style isn't important because
>there's no reason to become injured or injure others merely to train.
Like aikidoka or judoka never get injured? We don't deliberately
hurt each other or ourselves in training, but it happens on occasion.
At least in my style. Others may vary. Don't confuse "hard" with "brutal".
> `The World's Toughest' ? I've heard that a true Tai Chi master
>is unbeatable...
No doubt you were told this by a Tai Chi student??
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/t...@cs.umd.edu | "Born to die" | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
Keep your values off my family.
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to
a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and
district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which
district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be
informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be
confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory
process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the
Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
-- The Constitution of the United States of America
Douglas N. Cohen
=====
yeah.... *MUCH*
another opinion, worth what you paid for it!
and, as always, i am/at:
doug: <do...@eng.umd.edu> : <do...@lpf.umd.edu>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-< a ghost in the machine >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"presidential elections are planned distractions
to divert attention from the actions behind the scenes....
like a game of chess when the house is a mess, or
a petty money squabble when your marriage is in trouble,
or a football game when there's rioting in the street!
it's just another movie..... another song and dance.....
another poor sucker who never had a chance!
it's just another captain goin' down with his ship.....
it's just another jerk, taking pride in his work!
greetings from timbuck three!
Steve Gombosi
>In article <720667...@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> par...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>>If you think a hard style isn't important, say so, and say why.
>
> A hard style isn't important because there are limits to how
>much external physical strength a person can generate, and as that person
>ages this strength will vanish. A hard style isn't important because
>there's no reason to become injured or injure others merely to train. A
>hard style isn't important because you can get to the same place without all
>that _effort_ and still have most of your body intact...
For the record, Wharfie, I had more injuries in my first year of "soft"
Aikido than in 20 years of very traditional karate-do. I *saw* more
injuries, as well...
> `The World's Toughest' ? I've heard that a true Tai Chi master
>is unbeatable... I've seen aikido that could not be touched... Who knows?
Steve
Steve Gombosi
>In article <720667...@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> par...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>>I want to know what everyone's opinion on the toughest arts are. My
>>personal favourites are Mouy Thai (or kickboxing), Kyokushinkaikan
>>Karate, some Kempo styles, and some Chinese styles.
>>
>>What's the definition of `The World's Toughest'? Well, you decide, but
>>some guidelines are good fitness, full contact fighting, and mind over
>>body training. A good philosophy is also needed to temper the skills.
>>
>It's not clear to me that all of those things are synonymous with "tough", but
>I think that boxing and sumo should fit in there somewhere.
>
>I've heard about a game played in Wales, in which two people grab each other
>by the shoulders and kick each other repeatedly in the shins. With hard shoes
>on. The loser is the first to disengage. It's not clear that this is a
>martial art, but it certainly is the most excruciating combat-type game I've
>ever heard of.
Sure you haven't been watching coverage of the election?
Steve
Steve Gombosi
>wr...@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>>In article <720667...@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> par...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>>>If you think a hard style isn't important, say so, and say why.
>>
>> A hard style isn't important because there are limits to how
>>much external physical strength a person can generate, and as that person
>>ages this strength will vanish.
>
> Technique is important in hard styles too, and continual training
>reducing the loss of strength. I've sparred with men in their 60's who
>could kick my butt up and down the floor. Great strength is not necessary
>to be successful in hard styles.
Like he said...
>>A hard style isn't important because
>>there's no reason to become injured or injure others merely to train.
>
> Like aikidoka or judoka never get injured? We don't deliberately
>hurt each other or ourselves in training, but it happens on occasion.
>At least in my style. Others may vary. Don't confuse "hard" with "brutal".
There's a difference between training and abuse. Bad teachers are
not unique to any particular art.
And don't assume that karate is a "hard" martial art just because its
most basic techniqes are hard. That's akin to assuming that judo
is, ahem, "just a sport".
>> `The World's Toughest' ? I've heard that a true Tai Chi master
>>is unbeatable...
>
> No doubt you were told this by a Tai Chi student??
I'd say Wharfie's probably right. I'd also add that a true karate master
or a true aikido master or a true judo master or [art of your choice] master
is as well. That has more to do with "mastery" (in the sense of being what
the Japanese would call a "meijin") than the particulars of the art.
Steve
Tommy Kelly
>I've heard about a game played in Wales, in which two people grab each other
>by the shoulders and kick each other repeatedly in the shins. With hard shoes
>on. The loser is the first to disengage. It's not clear that this is a
>martial art, but it certainly is the most excruciating combat-type game I've
>ever heard of.
Oh fancy that! We have that game too in Glasgow.
Ours is slightly different in that as well as kicking shins, you can also
perform a move called the "glesga-kiss" or "stickin-the-heid-in" (you'll all
probably have a local version) which involves the attacker's forehead, the
victim's nose-bridge, and plenty of blood.
Trouble is, the referees to this game (commonly known as the "polis")
don't seem to understand the rules and are forever stopping games just at
the interesting bits.
tommy "still-trying-to-find-other-shotokaI-karate-kas" kelly
P.S. The game is known under a number of names - the commonest being
a "Square go". It is commonly begun by one of the participants
calling the immortal words "ah'll huv yoo pal!", to which the reply
is "aye, yoo an' whose army?", followed by "right, yer on, Square Go!"
wharfie
>reducing the loss of strength. I've sparred with men in their 60's who
At what point do hard styles become soft, and vice versa? I'm
of the opinion that a 70 year old man who appears as strong or stronger
as a 20 year old is demonstrating internal power.
Isn't it true that as you progress in a hard style, you learn to
generate power that does NOT come from strength, speed, or muscular
tension?
> Like aikidoka or judoka never get injured? We don't deliberately
Judo players get hurt all the time, but if it's not in competition
then it's because of carelessness. Competitive judo is not a good
example of soft martial arts, IMHO...
garry hodgson
>Yo All!
>
>There have been many claims to strong martial arts, weak martial arts,
>hard arts, soft arts, easy arts, complex arts, ...
>
>I want to know what everyone's opinion on the toughest arts are. My
From your description, it sounds like you're really talking about
toughest training (full contact, etc). This can vary greatly from
school to school within a style.
I suspect, however, if it's tough training you want, you'd have to look
at something like SEAL training in the military. After all, no matter
how tough you train a couple o' times a week after work, it's nothing
compared to the round the clock, flat out kind of workout these folks
go through. You just have to have the commitment.
I was gonna say, "You just have to be committed.", but that has
several interpretations, probably all true.
--
Garry Hodgson A slow winter day
AT&T Bell Labs A night like forever
ga...@alice.att.com Sink like a stone
att!alice!garry Float like a feather
Steven E Weigand
Well, someone has to respond to this, so I suppose it's my turn.
Defining a system to be "hard" or "soft" is entirely dependent on
the person who is learning that particular martial art. While I may
think being thrown to the ground repeatedly in Judo is "hard", some
may say that they find it very gentle. (In fact, Judo means "Gentle
Way".)
The "hard" and "soft" martial arts typically refer to whether that
martial art is external or internal in nature. Most people agree
that martial arts such as karate, taekwondo, and shaolin kung-fu
are external martial arts, and therefore are of the "hard" type.
On the other hand, martial arts such as aikido, tai-chi, chi-kung,
pa-kua, and hsing-i are internal in nature, and are therefore of
the "soft" type.
"Hard" styles are styles which rely on muscles to put power into
a strike (external=soft=done with muscles). "Soft" styles do not
rely on the external muscles of the body for power, but rather on
the internal energy and spirit of the practitioner (soft=internal=
done with life energy). The Chinese call this life energy Chi,
while the Japanese call it Ki, and the Hindu call it Prana. I
believe Wicka had a very similar idea of life energy as well.
A Muay Thai practitioner could be the most gentle person compared
to a particular tai-chi practitioner. It's totally dependent on the
person. Therefore, comparing styles by your definition of "hard"
and "soft" is illogical.
- Steven Weigand
(wei...@ee.udel.edu)
Steven E Weigand
I write:
>"Hard" styles are styles which rely on muscles to put power into
>a strike (external=soft=done with muscles). "Soft" styles do not
^^^^^^^
Oops! Meant to say:
(external=hard=done with ...
^^^^
>
> - Steven Weigand
> (wei...@ee.udel.edu)
>
Richard Drury
> At what point do hard styles become soft, and vice versa? I'm
>of the opinion that a 70 year old man who appears as strong or stronger
>as a 20 year old is demonstrating internal power.
I keep hearing about this ancient master who sends all the young
hotshots flying. But all of the folks I know who are in their
seventies are well past being able to compete successfully
against an experienced fighter in his 20's or 30's. I say
"experienced fighter" because practically anyone with training
can wipe the mat with an inexperienced opponent.
So, what's the story here? Who among us has actually fought
someone 70 or older and lost? Second hand "experience" doesn't
count. If this actually happened to you, how old were you at the
time, what sort of condition were you in, and what was your
level of experience?
--
Richard A. Drury
dr...@helix.nih.gov
Dave Pipes x4552
A friend of mine went to England for a high school exchange. She was very
excited at spending nine months is beautiful, scenic, old world England.
Luton, to be precise.
She was about 5' and 100 pounds, if that, and so to prove she was tough,
she got two tatoos (nice ones), one on the *palm* of her *hand* <howls of
EXTREME PAIN here>. She also became quite good at a pub game which involved
drinking, singing songs and banging an aluminum tray into the head of the
person next to you at appropriate moments. Apparently the trays actually
break after a while...
What with shin-kicking, the tray game, rugby and soccer fans, I can't see
how people fail to view the British as a serious military power.
She also had a great story about going on a double date where one of the guys
was late - he'd been stabbed in the stomach, see, and didn't want to miss the
date, so he'd just stuffed a hanky in and gotten on the tube...
David Pipes
prin...@mala.bc.ca
Isn't this like asking which end of the battery is most important the
positive end or the negitive end?
chris.
donald seto
Does keiko count? miyahara sensei (kendo) is 70 plus. he beats
at least sandan and below regularly in class.
Bldg 10, Rm 8D14
NIDDK, NIH
Tom Swiss (not Swift, not Suiss, Swiss!)
>In article <61...@mimsy.umd.edu> t...@cs.umd.edu (Tom Swiss (not Swift, not Suiss, Swiss!)) writes:
>> Technique is important in hard styles too, and continual training
>>reducing the loss of strength. I've sparred with men in their 60's who
>
> At what point do hard styles become soft, and vice versa?
BING! Give that man a cee-gar. The hard contains the soft, and the
soft, the hard. A competant hard stylist can use soft techniques, and
vice-versa.
>
> Isn't it true that as you progress in a hard style, you learn to
>generate power that does NOT come from strength, speed, or muscular
>tension?
I'm not quite sure what you mean. There's only one way to move
your body parts around, and that's with your muscles. So, at the
physical level, whether you're a hard or soft stylist you're using
strength, speed, and muscular tension. However, you should be learning
to use your body more effectively, and also to use your opponent's
momentus and movements against him, so as to get more bang for your
buck.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/t...@cs.umd.edu | "Born to die" | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
Keep your values off my family.
"Man's many desires are like the small metal coins he carries about in his
pocket. The more he has the more they weigh him down." -- Satya Sai Baba
garry hodgson
I keep hearing about this ancient master who sends all the young
hotshots flying. But all of the folks I know who are in their
seventies are well past being able to compete successfully
against an experienced fighter in his 20's or 30's.
So, what's the story here? Who among us has actually fought
someone 70 or older and lost?
Two data points, sort of stretching your bounds on age. My sensei
is an 8th dan in IsshinRyu. He's probably in his late 60's now,
retired from work, etc. Some of his black belts could probably
beat him in a tournament, but none of us would want a real fight.
His instructor is Don Nagle, 9th(?) dan IsshinRyu. I've never
sparred with him, but I *have* seen him doing techniques. I don't
think I've ever seen faster hands on a person (in ~20 years in MA).
I'm sure I couldn't take him now (I'm not actively training),
and doubt I could ever have.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
Albert Chou
I don't think a hard style is important, for the same reasons Wharfie
mentioned. Also, having studied Shaolin kung fu, a decidedly external style
with internal aspects, and currently studying t'ai chi, hsing yi, and pa kua,
all internal arts with varying degrees of external aspects, I really find the
internal arts to be much richer and more capable in terms of fighting, though
admittedly it takes a lot longer to develop that ability, and it
seems to me that one should study an external art first (you more quickly learn
how to be comfortable with your body and moving it in an external art, IMO).
Al
wharfie
>>generate power that does NOT come from strength, speed, or muscular
I mean that instead of coming close enough to correct execution
and then muscling through to generate power, or moving very fast so that
your speed covers your mistakes, you learn to move just _so_ and to be
exactly here and to be relaxed and fluid when you get there... I know
I'm not saying this very well.
Another thing: two people of very similar builds and weight
can exhibit wildly different strength levels that themselves vary
tremondously over time. This implies that there's more than just moving
some protein threads at work here.
Richard Drury
>In article dr...@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury) writes:
>>So, what's the story here? Who among us has actually fought
>>someone 70 or older and lost?
>
>at least sandan and below regularly in class.
Yes, it counts with me. Kendo players are not immune to the
physical effects of the aging process, but I think that may be
much less important in the weapons arts. Hmmm, that could be why
I find weapons work more and more appealing as the years roll by.
Bill Burgar
>In article wr...@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>> At what point do hard styles become soft, and vice versa? I'm
>>of the opinion that a 70 year old man who appears as strong or stronger
>>as a 20 year old is demonstrating internal power.
>
>hotshots flying. But all of the folks I know who are in their
>seventies are well past being able to compete successfully
>"experienced fighter" because practically anyone with training
>can wipe the mat with an inexperienced opponent.
>
>count. If this actually happened to you, how old were you at the
>time, what sort of condition were you in, and what was your
>level of experience?
Do you mean personally or actually seen, and do you mean a real fight
or Dojo sparing.
If you mean seen and Dojo sparing, I've seen Kase Sensei, who is certainly
older than 60 and I think may be in his seventies, kick the crap out of
3 very senior Dan grades between the ages of about 25 and 45. The only
way I can describe it was that he was the calm at the centre of the storm.
Bill Burgar.
Stephen Chan x4485
>
>
> I keep hearing about this ancient master who sends all the young
> hotshots flying. But all of the folks I know who are in their
> seventies are well past being able to compete successfully
> against an experienced fighter in his 20's or 30's.
>
> So, what's the story here? Who among us has actually fought
> someone 70 or older and lost?
I have it second-hand from someone who witnessed it, that Kisaka Sensei
(a 50 something JKA instructor) challenged a pompous young sandan at a training
camp, and tossed him around like a rag doll.
I've never really come across any MA teachers old enough to fit your
description though.
--
Stephen Chan
uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!sc...@uunet.uu.net
Stephen Chan x4485
>>>generate power that does NOT come from strength, speed, or muscular
>> I'm not quite sure what you mean. There's only one way to move
>
> I mean that instead of coming close enough to correct execution
>and then muscling through to generate power, or moving very fast so that
>your speed covers your mistakes, you learn to move just _so_ and to be
>exactly here and to be relaxed and fluid when you get there... I know
>I'm not saying this very well.
#define SOAPBOX
To paraphrase my old Karate sensei, there are lots of ways to move,
most of them are wrong, some of them are pretty good, but there's only 1
optimal way. [of course, optimal assumes something that you're optimizing for]
Soft stylists are always trying to find the path of least resistance in
their own bodies. If you are moving through the path of least resistance, then
you will be relaxed and fluid through the motion. If you are moving through a
resistive motion, then your body will have to introduce extra muscle tension
in order to maintain the movement.
Basically, if you can maintain relaxation throughout the movement, then
you are moving along the path of least resistance. That's the idea which under-
lies Taiji (as I understand it). The goal is efficiency, within the context of
moving naturally - not necessarily in geometric ideas like "shortest distance
between your fist and the target is a straight line."
Many people also believe that psychological states affect physical
states - so any mindset which involves ideas of conflict, fear or control will
tend to introduce tension in your body, degrading your physical performance,
as well as slowing down the spontaneous, intuitive activity of the mind.
#undef SOAPBOX
All disclaimers apply.
By the way, does what I say make sense to the other internal stylists
out there? I keep throwing this stuff out to the net so that people can tell me
if it sounds reasonable to them (seems reasonable to me).
prin...@mala.bc.ca
> I've heard about a game played in Wales, in which two people grab each other
> by the shoulders and kick each other repeatedly in the shins. With hard shoes
> on. The loser is the first to disengage. It's not clear that this is a
> martial art, but it certainly is the most excruciating combat-type game I've
> ever heard of.
In Russia they do a similar thing, they slap each other in the face
till one gives up.
chris.
Richard Parry
> It's not clear to me that all of those things are synonymous with "tough", but
> I think that boxing and sumo should fit in there somewhere.
Yup. I agree. Boxers take a hideous amount of punishment, although the
_do_ get to wear gloves 8-). Sumo is pretty much brute strength. Takes
big guys to do it...
> I've heard about a game played in Wales, in which two people grab each other
> by the shoulders and kick each other repeatedly in the shins. With hard shoes
> on. The loser is the first to disengage. It's not clear that this is a
> martial art, but it certainly is the most excruciating combat-type game I've
> ever heard of.
I said badass, not stupid... ;) Is it at all simialr to Irish Boxing?
There's a guy who lives around here who's a Irish Boxing exponent. Real
mean guy. But never having seen the Irish Boxing during training, I
couldn't say whether or not it was truly "tough"...
Cheers.
Richard Parry
In article <41...@unisql.UUCP> wr...@unisql.UUCP writes:
> A hard style isn't important because there are limits to how
> much external physical strength a person can generate, and as that person
> ages this strength will vanish. A hard style isn't important because
> there's no reason to become injured or injure others merely to train. A
> hard style isn't important because you can get to the same place without all
> that _effort_ and still have most of your body intact...
Okay. BUT. I've seen a woman black belt in Kyokushinkai, who must
weigh about 60kgs soaking wet. She is one of the toughest fighters I
have seen. All these "tough" karateka I have met who are oldish say
that all their injuries are not karate related - "this one was from when
I went parachuting and did it wrong" type of thing. The _really_ scary
thing is that they are still good fighters with hip replacements and no
flexibility, because they are "_tough_"...
> `The World's Toughest' ? I've heard that a true Tai Chi master
> is unbeatable... I've seen aikido that could not be touched... Who knows?
True. I have seen awesome aikido. But how many people do you know who
are that good? 8-)
Douglas N. Cohen
actually, steve, if you recall our recent viewing of the masters'
demonstration tape of the USCMAC (held in orlando), we saw Yang Jwing Ming
(or was it Liang Shou Yu) playing with one of his senior students, and it
was a world of difference. it seemed rather effortless to him, while the
student was struggling to not look bad.
i also havwe seen (personally) Sifu Y.C. Wong (of san francisco)
push hands with Tim Lee, (one of our senior instructors, and one of our
T'ai Chi Ch'uan instructors) and he litterally tossed him around effortlessly.
in addition, one of our instructors, (Linh Tai) challenged him,
and he, to, only more effortlessly, almost disdainfully, was tossed aside.
later, i saw Sifu Seng Au (Hung Gar master from hawaii) challenge
Sifu Y.C. Wong, and he was almost instantly defeated!
there is no contest.
then, there is always Sifu Chan Tai Shan.... about 85.... just
check out his demos sometime.....
another opinion, worth what you paid for it!
and, as always, i am/at:
doug: < do...@eng.umd.edu > : < do...@lpf.umd.edu >
-=-=-=-=-=-=-< a ghost in the machine >--=-=-=-=-=-=-
"now, as we drift a little further down the stream,
was it all, what it seemed?
was it true, was it real, or, just a dream?
when you wake up you may find
that you're not where you left yourself!"
justin hayward/john lodge: the blue jays
Dan Puckett
Here in America we are too civilized for such primitive customs. We
express our baser instincts by proxy every four years in what we call
"Presidential elections." In this game, the winner is the _first_ to
disengage. The loser is forced to take office. Brutal, yes, but at
least we _all_ don't have to play.
--
Dan Puckett: rugged, revisionist, runcible.
Jonathan Byrd
Sumo is pretty much brute strength.
I think that balance and the ability to shift one's weight quickly may
also contribute in some small way.
--
jonathan byrd
j...@apollo.med.utah.edu
garry hodgson
>>>generate power that does NOT come from strength, speed, or muscular
>> I'm not quite sure what you mean. There's only one way to move
>
> I mean that instead of coming close enough to correct execution
>and then muscling through to generate power, or moving very fast so that
>your speed covers your mistakes, you learn to move just _so_ and to be
>exactly here and to be relaxed and fluid when you get there... I know
>I'm not saying this very well.
I think part of the phenomena people are trying to describe
is that as one attains greater mastery, one also tends to attain greater
subtlety. When you're young and strong and fast, you tend to rely on these
attributes. As you get older, you lose some of this, but you gain
experience and knowlege, and work out ways around your deficiencies.
The subtlety wharfie described above might be seen as "softness", as
opposed to the hard, fast, aggressive style of a "young buck"
A football analogy comes to mind. There are a number of quarterbacks
who can avoid being sacked by dodging, darting, and using their speed
and agility to get out of trouble. There others who, seeing a player
bearing down on them, seem to hardly move at all. A slight shift of
position, a turning to one side or the other, and the tackler goes past,
missing them. Ken O'brien, of the NY Jets, used to do this quite a bit.
I sometimes marveled at how, with the tiniest movements, he avoided
impending doom, barely seeming to notice. It often reminded me of
Aikido.
Michael Robinson
>[Path of least resistance litany...]
>
> By the way, does what I say make sense to the other internal stylists
>out there?
Speaking from my own experience, all that sounds just fine until the first
few times you "feel" an opponent's attack while the idea for it is still being
formed, or you manage to "take control" of an opponent's body and make them do
something they are mentally resisting.
At that point, you become much less sure of what is really going on.
>I keep throwing this stuff out to the net so that people can tell me
>if it sounds reasonable to them (seems reasonable to me).
Right now, I'm pretty sure I don't understand what makes internal arts
actually work. I have a pretty good idea, though, that when I do, it isn't
going to be something "reasonable".
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Robinson UUCP: ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
INTERNET: robi...@cogsci.berkeley.edu
Mikel Evins
>moving naturally - not necessarily in geometric ideas like "shortest distance
>between your fist and the target is a straight line."
> By the way, does what I say make sense to the other internal stylists
>out there? I keep throwing this stuff out to the net so that people can
>tell me if it sounds reasonable to them (seems reasonable to me).
Sounds right to me. I would amend your explanation with the caveat
that 'moving naturally' isn't always going to mean 'moving the
way you would normally move,' especially for a beginner. My practice
in Aikido, T'ai Chi and Pa Kua suggest to me that 'moving naturally'
may often involve some considerable amount of training in
counterintuitive movements designed to overcome habits of tension
and inefficiency. Sometimes that training can become quite
uncomfortable.
Robert Stroud
>>I keep hearing about this ancient master who sends all the young
>>hotshots flying. But all of the folks I know who are in their
>>seventies are well past being able to compete successfully
>>someone 70 or older and lost? Second hand "experience" doesn't
>>count. If this actually happened to you, how old were you at the
>>time, what sort of condition were you in, and what was your
>>level of experience?
>
>at least sandan and below regularly in class.
Isn't he great. I really enjoy practicing with him. He
makes it look so effortless. Their are many people in
their 70's who can whomp the crud out of younger kendo
players.
Nakakura sensei (9th dan) does the same thing with 8th
dans in their 60's. It is really impressive when you consider
that he is 83 and that the 7 and 8 dan can do the same with
4 and 5 dan players. It is very eye opening to see what is
really possible by someone with real ability and experience.
One reason you don't see it in Karate as much
is that the 70 year olds can't do kumite everyday and not
sustain some injury. Karate is hard on the body during
kumite. Instructors of this level could probably floor
lower ranks with one or two techniques everyday but that
kind of defeats the purpose of free practice. The student
has to get a chance to hit. Recieving in kendo is easy
due to the bogu (armor).
--
Robert Stroud rob...@usa.wv.tek.com
Obukan Kendo Club
Portland Oregon USA
kenf...@hmcvax.claremont.edu
> Sumo is pretty much brute strength. Takes
> big guys to do it...
What? Yes, Sumoka are very strong (and very large), but sumo is as much skill
as any other throwing art--judo or aikido, say.
Kent Enfield
Musubi Dojo (Aikido)
Claremont, CA
Ad absurdum per aspera
> S&M-influenced ryu] are still good fighters with hip replacements and no
> flexibility, because they are "_tough_"...
>True. I have seen awesome aikido. But how many people do you know who
>are that good? 8-)
Well...how many people do you know who are that tough? For that matter,
how many people do you know who will ever get really good at any style?
>> A hard style isn't important because you can get to the same place without
>> all that _effort_ and still have most of your body intact...
Sure, there are ways to go besides a hard style. But if somebody
sticks with a hard style after many years, many buckets of sweat,
probably many injuries, and certainly many chances to observe that
there are softer styles available, one is forced to conclude that
they must enjoy it.
Which makes it "good." For them. The only definition that counts in a
life that's too short anyway.
--Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
Richard Drury
>>someone 70 or older and lost? Second hand "experience" doesn't
>>count. If this actually happened to you, how old were you at the
>>time, what sort of condition were you in, and what was your
>>level of experience?
>
>
>or Dojo sparing.
Well, I guess I meant "personally experienced," but "saw" is
close enough for the sake of discussion. By "fight," I meant
full-contact competition of one form or another.
>If you mean seen and Dojo sparing, I've seen Kase Sensei, who is certainly
>older than 60 and I think may be in his seventies, kick the crap out of
>3 very senior Dan grades between the ages of about 25 and 45. The only
>way I can describe it was that he was the calm at the centre of the storm.
I'm 98% certain you mean that he fought them one at a time,
but your description of him as the eye of the storm makes me
wonder if maybe by some chance you meant he took them all on at
once. You meant the former, right? Just to satisfy my morbid
curiosity, how was the defeat of these younger guys determined?
Knockout, points, "I concede," or what?
Bill Burgar
> > It's not clear to me that all of those things are synonymous with "tough", but
> > I think that boxing and sumo should fit in there somewhere.
>
>Yup. I agree. Boxers take a hideous amount of punishment, although the
>_do_ get to wear gloves 8-). Sumo is pretty much brute strength. Takes
>big guys to do it...
No way is Sumo just brute stength! There is a high degree of skill in there
as well. Just because they are big guys does not necessarily mean they rely
purly on strength.
Anyway true "toughness" is a mental thing, not much to do with physical
strength.
Bill Burgar.
Charles Yeomans
>In article <1992Nov2.1...@ms.uky.edu> tadd...@ms.uky.edu writes:
>
> > It's not clear to me that all of those things are synonymous with "tough", but
> > I think that boxing and sumo should fit in there somewhere.
>
>Yup. I agree. Boxers take a hideous amount of punishment, although the
>_do_ get to wear gloves 8-). Sumo is pretty much brute strength. Takes
>big guys to do it...
>
> > I've heard about a game played in Wales, in which two people grab each other
> > by the shoulders and kick each other repeatedly in the shins. With hard shoes
> > on. The loser is the first to disengage. It's not clear that this is a
> > martial art, but it certainly is the most excruciating combat-type game I've
> > ever heard of.
>
Gilbey's "Secret Fighting Arts of the World".
Charles Yeomans
Richard Parry
In article <Bx4GD...@news.udel.edu> wei...@chopin.udel.edu writes:
> "Hard" styles are styles which rely on muscles to put power into
> a strike (external=hard=done with muscles).
Train harder. There's a lot to be said about using proper technique
behind a punch - I can punch harder than many musclebound guys at a gym,
because of technique. And then there's extending your chi/ki into a
killing force - can be done. Even seen someone break 14 concrete
roofing tiles? ;-)
Other than that, you had some good points... Sych as:
> A Muay Thai practitioner could be the most gentle person compared
> to a particular tai-chi practitioner. It's totally dependent on the
> person. Therefore, comparing styles by your definition of "hard"
> and "soft" is illogical.
It is indeed based upon the person. Also, upon his trainer.
Later!
Albert Chou
>The "hard" and "soft" martial arts typically refer to whether that
>martial art is external or internal in nature. Most people agree
>that martial arts such as karate, taekwondo, and shaolin kung-fu
>are external martial arts, and therefore are of the "hard" type.
>On the other hand, martial arts such as aikido, tai-chi, chi-kung,
>pa-kua, and hsing-i are internal in nature, and are therefore of
>the "soft" type.
>"Hard" styles are styles which rely on muscles to put power into
Steven, even with your correction (external=hard, internal=soft), I still think
you're not quite right. I see the hard/soft and internal/external spectra as
related but distinct. For instance, I don't think an internal style can
really be hard, though there are harder and softer arts within the internal
ones (e.g., t'ai chi is softer than pa kua is softer than hsing yi, but all
three are decidedly internal). OTOH, an external art can be quite soft,
quite hard, or somewhere in between (e.g., some Southern styles of kung fu
are quite soft, generic Shaolin kung fu is middle-of-the-road, and Muay Thai
and Kyokushinkai are incredibly hard).
Al
Richard Parry
In article <24...@alice.att.com> ga...@alice.UUCP writes:
> From your description, it sounds like you're really talking about
> toughest training (full contact, etc). This can vary greatly from
> school to school within a style.
Yup. That I was...
> I suspect, however, if it's tough training you want, you'd have to look
> at something like SEAL training in the military. After all, no matter
> how tough you train a couple o' times a week after work, it's nothing
> compared to the round the clock, flat out kind of workout these folks
> go through. You just have to have the commitment.
Hm. Interesting. I train five nights a week. The only problem I'd
have with training all day five days a week is that I may run a serious
risk of dying from exhaustion... ;)
> I was gonna say, "You just have to be committed.", but that has
> several interpretations, probably all true.
ROTFL! 8-)
Richard Parry
> seems to me that one should study an external art first (you more quickly learn
> how to be comfortable with your body and moving it in an external art, IMO).
Interesting point. I did indeed start with an external style, and moved
onto an internal/external style (Hapkido) then onto a totally internal
style (Aikido), then back to my current external style. It has given me
advantages that many "hard" style practitioners don't have, and I'm
grateful for that.
Tom Wu
Have you heard about the fact that if you are totally relaxed
during a car accident, you have a better chance of surviving it. A lot
of DWD offenders are never injured.
This is the idea behind internal styles. One's nature is to
resist and tense up under an attack. What internal M-A practitioners
try to do is to sense the direction of an attack and flow with it, at
the same time unbalance the attacker. Keep in mind that philosophy is
important in internal M-As such as Tai Ji. But it is not essential.
Tai Ji evolved directly from Shaolin. I know 1 or 2 masters who have
devoted 40 or 50 years of their life time studying Tai Ji and are
just beginning to express the philosophical aspect of this art. So
be very careful when some beginer starts to talk philosophy. You can
tell that they probabily got their information through books not
experience. Tai Ji is a very potent M-A, Don't let the Philosophical
aspect detract you from that.
---Tom
Thorick Chow
>Yo All!
>
>There have been many claims to strong martial arts, weak martial arts,
>hard arts, soft arts, easy arts, complex arts, ...
>
>I want to know what everyone's opinion on the toughest arts are. My
>personal favourites are Mouy Thai (or kickboxing), Kyokushinkaikan
>Karate, some Kempo styles, and some Chinese styles.
>
>What's the definition of `The World's Toughest'? Well, you decide, but
>some guidelines are good fitness, full contact fighting, and mind over
>body training. A good philosophy is also needed to temper the skills.
>
Well, a guy came around to a Tai Chi class I was in who said he did Kempo.
He surprised a few people by saying that he broke his hands punching
hard objects.. as he proudly put it:
"I must break my own bones so that I can break the bones of
my opponent"
just so.. this seems pretty tough to me...
gosh, maybe I should have someone beat me over the head with
a baseball bat so that when it REALLY happens, I'll be used to it !
:-)
-t.c.
--
"..according to Chinese law, most suicides are considered criminal offenses
against Socialism and the Communist Party. When someone takes his own life
members of the family are often punished, on the principle that they must have
either condoned or been influenced by the 'incorrect thought'.." -Iron & Silk
Albert Chou
>there's only 1 optimal way. [of course, optimal assumes something that you're optimizing for]
That parenthetical remark is one we should all keep in mind, all the time.
> Soft stylists are always trying to find the path of least resistance in
>their own bodies.
>[snip]
> Basically, if you can maintain relaxation throughout the movement, then
>you are moving along the path of least resistance. That's the idea which under-
>lies Taiji (as I understand it). The goal is efficiency, within the context of
>moving naturally - not necessarily in geometric ideas like "shortest distance
>between your fist and the target is a straight line."
I don't see soft styles as necessarily finding the path of least resistance
in one's own body -- otherwise, I think all such styles would be more similar
to one another than they are. Even among the Chinese internal arts, which I
consider a smaller set than "soft styles", since some soft styles are external
(actually, I should say "most soft styles", since there's only a small handful
of internal arts, but a multitude of soft arts), there is a marked variation
in styles and goals. T'ai chi does seem to concentrate on relaxation, even in
its fighting, but it's a particular _brand_ of relaxation that there's no
good English word for. Hsing yi, OTOH, doesn't talk about relaxation at all,
and develops its power in ways completely different from those of t'ai chi.
>#undef SOAPBOX
Al
Thorick Chow
>
>I've heard about a game played in Wales, in which two people grab each other
>by the shoulders and kick each other repeatedly in the shins. With hard shoes
>on. The loser is the first to disengage. It's not clear that this is a
>martial art, but it certainly is the most excruciating combat-type game I've
>ever heard of.
>
Check out the Yanamamo (sp ?) of Brazil who have chest beating contests,
the first one to pass out loses.
(In my more stupid younger days I used to fantasize about learning
"Iron Shirt" Chi Gung, then going down there to be king of the pack....
Now that I'm a little older and not *as* stupid, I shudder to
think of what responsibilities might come along with that title !)
Steve Gombosi
>In article <1992Nov2.1...@ms.uky.edu> tadd...@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken) writes:
>>
>>I've heard about a game played in Wales, in which two people grab each other
>>by the shoulders and kick each other repeatedly in the shins. With hard shoes
>>on. The loser is the first to disengage. It's not clear that this is a
>>martial art, but it certainly is the most excruciating combat-type game I've
>>ever heard of.
>>
>
>Check out the Yanamamo (sp ?) of Brazil who have chest beating contests,
>the first one to pass out loses.
Of course, this is also the tribe where young men are required to kill
someone before they're allowed to marry, isn't it? Nice folks...
Steve
The One Your Mother Warned You About!
>>Yup. I agree. Boxers take a hideous amount of punishment, although the
>>_do_ get to wear gloves 8-). Sumo is pretty much brute strength. Takes
>>big guys to do it...
>No way is Sumo just brute stength! There is a high degree of skill in there
>as well. Just because they are big guys does not necessarily mean they rely
>purly on strength.
would win hands down. Although he's a leading contender in the sport,
I've seen him get finessed and out manuevered too many times. Besides
the Sumo association would certainly disagree with that simplistic
accessment of sumo. That old "sumo grace" they keep talking about!
RT
Charles Yeomans
>>Yo All!
>>
>>There have been many claims to strong martial arts, weak martial arts,
>>hard arts, soft arts, easy arts, complex arts, ...
>>
>>I want to know what everyone's opinion on the toughest arts are. My
>>personal favourites are Mouy Thai (or kickboxing), Kyokushinkaikan
>>Karate, some Kempo styles, and some Chinese styles.
>>
>>What's the definition of `The World's Toughest'? Well, you decide, but
>>some guidelines are good fitness, full contact fighting, and mind over
>>body training. A good philosophy is also needed to temper the skills.
>>
>
I am a sissy, but I can't say that I find having kote hineri applied to me and
then being slammed face first to the mat, say, twenty times, as easy.
I'd like to know what the easiest martial arts are.
Charles Yeomans
cyeo...@ms.uky.edu
yeo...@austin.onu.edu
Leif Ericksen
>In article <1992Nov05....@srg.srg.af.mil> sc...@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
>>[Path of least resistance litany...]
>>
>> By the way, does what I say make sense to the other internal stylists
>>out there?
>
>Speaking from my own experience, all that sounds just fine until the first
>few times you "feel" an opponent's attack while the idea for it is still being
>formed, or you manage to "take control" of an opponent's body and make them do
>something they are mentally resisting.
Sounds like a bit of JuJistsu
>
>
>Right now, I'm pretty sure I don't understand what makes internal arts
>actually work. I have a pretty good idea, though, that when I do, it isn't
I have worked on this in my own art and am assuming one of two things
knowing what is going to happen before it does or making an opponent strike
a specific target so that you can block and counter..
To explain, I set a friend on the OTHER SIDE of a DOOR, yes a solid
door with no view. I told him to concentrate on the surroundigs and to
say when he felt an attack was comming and to tell me if it was in the
gut Chudan or the face Jodan. He was able to call all spots so I decided
to get nasty and cheat I decided to throw a puch to groin level, from
the other sided of the door he freaked and said he felt something but
it was LOW! I asked how low and he named the proper area.. Thus
proving to him that there was something more to MA that just flashy kicks
and punches soo he soon wants to join a MA class.
Personally I call the whole thing self preservation, and dont
rely on the mystical Ki/Chi idea, and I do not think that will change.
I also have heard my Karate teacher talking about His Iaido class
where you may have someone near by point a 'LIVE BLADE' from a sword at
you while you are blidfolded, and he says you really feel that sword!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leif Ericksen
pha...@gagme.chi.il.us
You may train for a long time, but if you mereley move your hands and feet
and jump up and down like a puppet, learning karate is not very different from
learning a dance. You will never have reached the heart of the matter; you
will have failed to grasp the quintessence of karate-do
- Gichin Funakoshi
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leif Ericksen
phantom gagme.chi.il.us
Christopher Columbus is a lie, he borrowed a Norwegian MAP! Then he
stole all the credit for the discovery of America. But since he could not read
Norwegian he messed up and ended up down around the Behamahs instead of up
around Newfoudland and New England.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Robinson
>I'd like to know what the easiest martial arts are.
In terms of lowest ratio of physical exertion to fighting effectiveness, I'd
have to say I Ch'uan takes the prize.
In some of the more advanced I Ch'uan training exercises, you actually move.
Thorick Chow
>
>From your description, it sounds like you're really talking about
>toughest training (full contact, etc). This can vary greatly from
>school to school within a style.
>
>at something like SEAL training in the military. After all, no matter
>how tough you train a couple o' times a week after work, it's nothing
>compared to the round the clock, flat out kind of workout these folks
>go through. You just have to have the commitment.
and the gov't feeding you, clothing you, housing you (when you're not
out in the field), paying your medical bills, providing your ammo and supplies...
but gosh, I have to provide those things for myself, kind of eats away
at the possibility of training all day for weeks on end...
but I have no reason to complain.. I get to choose for what purpose
I use my training... they don't.
Which leads me to a kind of related topic...
My current teacher has just retired from his 'straight' job (teaching
High School).. Up till now his life has been nothing but teaching
High school during the day and MA just about every night during the
week.. and teaching MA all day on Saturday...
I've sometimes wondered why he didn't try full-time teaching of MA
for a living. One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
enough students that he could have gotten by).. i.e. he didn't
have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...
any comments on this idea ?
Bill Burgar
> > It's not clear to me that all of those things are synonymous with "tough", but
> > I think that boxing and sumo should fit in there somewhere.
>
>Yup. I agree. Boxers take a hideous amount of punishment, although the
>_do_ get to wear gloves 8-). Sumo is pretty much brute strength. Takes
>big guys to do it...
No way is Sumo just brute stength! There is a high degree of skill in there
as well. Just because they are big guys does not necessarily mean they rely
purly on strength.
Dave Pipes x4552
>>Yo All!
>>
>>There have been many claims to strong martial arts, weak martial arts,
>>hard arts, soft arts, easy arts, complex arts, ...
>>
>>I want to know what everyone's opinion on the toughest arts are. My
>>personal favourites are Mouy Thai (or kickboxing), Kyokushinkaikan
>>Karate, some Kempo styles, and some Chinese styles.
>>
>>What's the definition of `The World's Toughest'? Well, you decide, but
>>some guidelines are good fitness, full contact fighting, and mind over
>>body training. A good philosophy is also needed to temper the skills.
>
>Well, a guy came around to a Tai Chi class I was in who said he did Kempo.
>He surprised a few people by saying that he broke his hands punching
>hard objects.. as he proudly put it:
>
> "I must break my own bones so that I can break the bones of
> my opponent"
>
>just so.. this seems pretty tough to me...
>
>gosh, maybe I should have someone beat me over the head with
>a baseball bat so that when it REALLY happens, I'll be used to it !
Not so tough...He can never train to kill, can he? :-)
David Pipes
rob...@digex.com
Aaron Emigh
>I've sometimes wondered why [my teacher] didn't try full-time teaching of MA
>for a living. One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
>on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
>without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
>necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
>enough students that he could have gotten by).. i.e. he didn't
>have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...
>
>any comments on this idea ?
I'm sure that independence from the marketplace has validity; just
thought I'd provide an opposing perspective. I studied for a while
under someone (a Wing Chun practitioner) who felt that his martial arts
skills were "too precious to sell" and who taught strictly on a
non-remunerative, informal basis. While I enjoyed working out with him,
he was far more fickle than he could have been in a commercial setting
(classes were often canceled, and his student turnover was quite high
because he'd often decide someone needed time away, etc.). I don't
think his students ended up learning all that much, mostly because his
devotion to teaching was not really all that strong.
I certainly don't claim this is part and parcel with not being a
full-time martial artist, but I do think it's harder to really devote
yourself to an art without doing it full-time. Also, the marketplace
will generally weed out teachers who aren't devoted, even though it
(obviously) often doesn't weed out teachers who aren't good.
>-t.c.
Aaron Emigh
aa...@iit.com
aa...@cse.ucsc.edu
Dzu Nguyen
>have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...
>
>any comments on this idea ?
One thing i can't stand is the commercialization of teh martial
arts. Things have gotten so bad with people inventing their own
styles and techniques after only a limited time of study. I used to
train at one of these McDojo's and i am thankful for many of the
basic punches and kicks that i learned. However the instructor was
asking for more money and wanted to sign me up for a 2nd dan program
costing about 2 thousand dollars. It seems that many schools are
franchised out to anyone with a black belt and the money. In
essence many people do 'sell' out. It's a shame really.
Dzu
Damien Kixk
>My current teacher has just retired from his 'straight' job (teaching
>High School).. Up till now his life has been nothing but teaching
>High school during the day and MA just about every night during the
>week.. and teaching MA all day on Saturday...
>
>I've sometimes wondered why he didn't try full-time teaching of MA
>for a living. One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
>on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
>without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
>necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
>enough students that he could have gotten by).. i.e. he didn't
>have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...
>
>any comments on this idea ?
>
Many of the marial arts -- if not all -- are rich ex-
pressions of the cultures which have engendered them. In
a way, they are very much a folk tradition. Consider the
way in which most of the arts have been "passed down" --
historically, the propigation of the martial arts has been
from master to pupil, master to pupil ... The master-pupil
relationship dealt with more than the simple acquisition of
a skill -- like going to a technical school and being taught
the skills one will need to succeed. The master's role was
very much one of a mentor -- more than just a bi-weekly
appointment with an alloted slice of time. Frequently,
students would live with their masters -- much in the same
spirit as a page serving a knight and learning from him.
Or, to use a less archaic allusion, consider a university
professor taking an undergraduate under his/her wing and
guiding that student throughout the course of his/her
academic career. Or, perhaps, consider a grandfather
teaching his grandson how to fish for bass -- a bit over
sentimentalized to be sure but not that far a stretch
considering many schools of martial arts were indeed kept
within the same family for generations.
What is this saying? That to turn the teaching of
the martial arts into a commercial enterprise is to strip
those very martial arts out of the cultural heritage which
have nurished their development. Yeah, but the times, they
are a changing ... what's your point?
I feel that the commercialization of the martial arts
is grevious crime to the very martial spirit which was
once the backbone of "the arts". My reasons for feeling
this way are uniquely mine -- since this is, by nature,
very much of an opinion kind of a thing. I feel that the
capitalization of humankinds' skills, to turn what it is
that a person can do into a commodity, is to fundamentally
alienate humanity from itself. Humankind becomes part of
the very mechanism of capital which humankind itself created
and the creator ends up serving its creation ... This is
a quasi-poetic attempt at voicing a bit of a neo-marxist
view on the nature of captialism. But not to stray to far
afeild -- yes, I think that going commercial is a sell out.
No wonder the old masters were reluctant to teach their
art to outsiders ...
And here comes a completely modern twist ... Don't
sell out! Keep ma underground and keep it punk! Check out
the martial art history of Okinaowa ... strong tradtion of
underground rebellion against an oppressive society.
Strong tradition of self-reliance. What about ... Capoerica?
... that martial art that came from African slaves learning
to fight while in shackles. What about ninjitsu? Could
one possibly get any more radical than that?
... I feel that no true art should be made commercial.
Keep it underground ... keep it "punk".
So, there are a "few" of my reasons for feeling
that the martial arts should be more than a mere sport.
A comercial enterprise. Like the NFL or something. I am
of the rather sad opinion, however, that the martial arts
have become a weak shadow of what they once were --
especially in the usa where there never was much of a tradition
to stand on and seeing as how we are pretty much the world
wide icon of commercialization. Go Pepsi. I mean, Tak Kwon
Doe in the olympics? Judo has long ago surrendered ...
The goal of the founder of the Kodokan has succeeded, yes,
Ju has not "died". It has been transformed so much that
it is no longer recognizable as resembling what it once
was. (Could someone still truely call the Catholic church
Catholic if it lost the believe in the pope? When some-
thing of fundametal importance -- essentially definitve --
has changed can that thing still be called what it once
was?)
Which I think brings up the question of -- How can
we truely speak of there being a martial art if not in
the presence of a martial society? Hypothetically: The
only county which could truely speak of having a martial
art would be a war torn country ... and who would want
that? How can there be martial arts where there is peace?
Or at least, how can you truely speak of a martial art
unless there is fighting of some sort which is a common
factor in you're life. Not just the potentiality but
rather the actuality ... To talk of such a thing, would
it not be a bit pretentious? Would this not make for a
"pack of suburban commandos?" ... Any comments on this?
please?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "hell is other people" - Jean Paul Sarte |
| mail sent by: Damien Kixk :-( |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damien Kixk
Didn't they used to do just that? Didn't that used to
be the whole point? Someone please bring up this subject ...
I know it wasn't that simple. To wax all hollywoodish, I
realize there were the Shaolin monks (only "experience" I've
had with them is through the tv show "Kung-fu").
Bill Burgar
>>If you mean seen and Dojo sparing, I've seen Kase Sensei, who is certainly
>>older than 60 and I think may be in his seventies, kick the crap out of
>>3 very senior Dan grades between the ages of about 25 and 45. The only
>>way I can describe it was that he was the calm at the centre of the storm.
>
>I'm 98% certain you mean that he fought them one at a time,
>but your description of him as the eye of the storm makes me
>wonder if maybe by some chance you meant he took them all on at
>once. You meant the former, right? Just to satisfy my morbid
>curiosity, how was the defeat of these younger guys determined?
>Knockout, points, "I concede," or what?
>--
It was all at the same time although at no one time did they get the chance
to hit simultaneously. It wasn't decided on knockouts so I suppose you
could say it was points, but that wouldn't be entirely accurate either. He
hit them cleanly on vital points for the most part, and he took a couple of
shots as well (but if youve seen him you would know that a body shot would
have very little effect).
As far as I am concerned he clearly beat them by simply outclassing them.
I think everybody on the net has had that feeling at one time or another that
your opponent is simple playing with you, seemingly hitting you where and
when he wants. It wasn't necessary for there to be a knockout, for points
to be declared or for anyone to concede - he was simply in control.
Bill Burgar.
Erling Paulsen
OUS..
Sempai Erling Paulsen, Kyokushinkai
Dave Pipes x4552
>In article <1992Nov09.1...@srg.srg.af.mil>
> dpi...@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552) writes:
>>In article <25...@sybase.sybase.com> tho...@sybase.com (Thorick Chow) writes:
>>>
>>>Well, a guy came around to a Tai Chi class I was in who said he did Kempo.
>>>He surprised a few people by saying that he broke his hands punching
>>>hard objects.. as he proudly put it:
>>>
>>> "I must break my own bones so that I can break the bones of
>>> my opponent"
>>>
>>>just so.. this seems pretty tough to me...
>>>
>>>gosh, maybe I should have someone beat me over the head with
>>>a baseball bat so that when it REALLY happens, I'll be used to it !
>>
>>Not so tough...He can never train to kill, can he? :-)
>>
>> David Pipes
>>rob...@digex.com
>
> Didn't they used to do just that? Didn't that used to
> be the whole point? Someone please bring up this subject ...
> I know it wasn't that simple. To wax all hollywoodish, I
> realize there were the Shaolin monks (only "experience" I've
> had with them is through the tv show "Kung-fu").
>
Let me clarify...By the above logic he would have to kill himself to know
how to kill others...I just found it humorous.
David Pipes
rob...@digex.com
Andrew Michael Woodward
the head. This is why some of the least likely folk are the most indestructible!
David Shorten
:
: I feel that the commercialization of the martial arts
I'll bet many in the newsgroup would love to find a master
that would take them in and thoroughly teach them an art.
However, the number of masters willing to do this is far
fewer than the number of students wanting such instruction.
Also those who are truly skilled can make a much more
comfortable life for their families if they go "commercial"
and offer to teach their skills for a fee to as many students
as they can handle. There is a benefit to the rest of us
when they do that: they can reach many more students that
way, thus making their skill available to more of us wanting
to learn. I admit it's not the best way to learn an art,
and it certainly lends itself to abuse by shysters, but
it gives the most people a chance to explore the martial arts.
As to the question of the traditional "martial arts" being truly
martial, I would have to agree with you. Some were developed
in response to a warlike situation but are now divorced from
that environment, and no longer address the issues of modern
warfare (conventional or urban). I think to be truly martial
an art would have to address the issues of modern urban or
guerrilla warfare. This would have to take into account the
legality and concealability of weapons, as well as guns for
when you are in relatively "lawless" neighbourhoods. Certainly
small-group tactics would be essential for the possibility of
being set upon by a gang.
There is also the point of view, that because an art was developed
as a practical combat art it is always a martial art, even if the
environment which made it practical disappears. This is an
equally valid point of view in my mind, and just depends on your
definition of terms.
Dave S.
Dakin Burdick
>
> And here comes a completely modern twist ... Don't
> sell out! Keep ma underground and keep it punk! Check out
> the martial art history of Okinaowa ... strong tradtion of
> underground rebellion against an oppressive society.
> Strong tradition of self-reliance. What about ... Capoerica?
> ... that martial art that came from African slaves learning
> to fight while in shackles. What about ninjitsu? Could
> one possibly get any more radical than that?
> ... I feel that no true art should be made commercial.
> Keep it underground ... keep it "punk".
Hmm. I see a couple problems with your idea. You ignore
the benefits that have come out of commercialization of the martial
arts. Nowadays anybody can drop into a dojo/dojang/kwoon and take
a couple lessons or watch a class, and because of that the martial
arts are more generally accepted. If you radicalize the arts (as
seems to be your intention), you're going to worry a lot of the
people who have to worry about radical warriors. The Police come
to mind, as does the FBI investigating armed radical bands. Not to
mention the fact that your instructor will have control of a very
tight little clique of secretive martial artists separated from
society as a whole and will certainly be tempted to take things
to extremes (check out the cult posts this week).
I'd say that it is wise not to let money decide what or who you
teach, but charging tuition does establish a contractual bond
between you and the student, and it certainly helps pay the rent
for us working stiffs.
> I am
> of the rather sad opinion, however, that the martial arts
> have become a weak shadow of what they once were --
> especially in the usa where there never was much of a tradition
> to stand on and seeing as how we are pretty much the world
> wide icon of commercialization.
Again I disagree. I think that teaching the martial arts in the
U.S. is hard; Americans expect a lot and an instructor has to be
a good teacher to make a living. And the commercialization of
the arts have allowed Americans to pick and choose from the best
techniques of the various arts imported to the country. As for
tradition, most of the best martial artists come to the U.S.
(because it is a great commercial power) to live and teach.
> Which I think brings up the question of -- How can
> we truely speak of there being a martial art if not in
> the presence of a martial society?
I'm sorry, but this is pretty ludicrous. You don't have to
be at war to learn the art of war. And the point of the martial
arts is to learn to live a better life, not go off to war and die.
If you want to head off to Lebanon to learn the martial arts, be
my guest, but I just got done reading an article about a Lebanese
karate instructor (the "father of Lebanese Karate" as a matter of
fact) who moved to California.
Mikel Evins
>for a living. One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
>on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
>without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
>necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
>enough students that he could have gotten by).. i.e. he didn't
>have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...
There are bad people both in and out of commercial schools,
and there are good people both in and out of commercial schools.
One can argue that, if a person is teaching without a fee,
or is not running a commercial school, that he or she must
be teaching from noble motives, but that is a specious
argument. After all, greed is not the only ignoble motivation
that people might have for doing something.
There is always the risk that a person who opens a commercial
school is more motivated by monetary gain than by love for
a martial art. On the other hand, I can tell you from experience
that opening a martial arts school is not a fast road to
easy money. It's like any other small business: it's a
more than full-time job that replaces most of your social
life and hobbies with mundane concerns that go home with
you every night. If you want to do it then you had better
love martial arts or you are kidding yourself.
Now some commercial schools use very predatory business
practices, like abusive contracts, intimidation tactics in
classes, variations on bait-and-switch to get parents
of students to pay lots of money. The philosophy of
business that I learned from my instructors is that, in the
long run, those tactics don't pay off. They tell me that
there are just a handful of schools in Denver that were
there when they started 12 years ago; fewer than the fingers on
one hand. On the other hand, dozens of big commercial
schools have gone out of business over the years. Why?
David Soard says he thinks it's because, after 3-5 years
of predatory relationships with customers, these schools
have alienated their students and prospective students,
and nobody wants to study with them anymore. If they
want to continue to make money then they have to move to
another city where people don't know them.
A good teacher might teach a small group, or might teach
for free, because of a feeling that the commercial
schools don't have the right atmosphere, or because
he or she doesn't care for the demands of running a
small business. On the other hand, a different good
teacher might prefer the structure that a commercial
school imposes; might appreciate the responsibility
to show up every day, rain or shine, might flourish
in the atmosphere of a facility devoted entirely to
study and practice of his or her chosen art.
At the same time, a bad teacher might open a school on a
shoestring hoping to bilk unwary consumers before
folding up and disappearing; or might hope to buiild
some sort of empire out of ignorance of how small
businesses depend on the good will of their clientele.
On the other hand, it's equally possible that a
bad teacher could decide to teach privately to minimize
the chances of being caught out in impropriety, or
because he or she doesn't have the wherewithal to
manage a small business, or because he or she wants
to attract a small circle of sycophants to feed his
or her ego.
In short, I don't think you can tell whether a given
individual is any good as a person or a teacher just
from knowing whether he or she teaches in a commercial
school. I think you have to find out about the individual,
and use your best judgement to decide on an individual
basis.
Mike Carney
In article <74...@apple.apple.COM> mi...@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
> In article <25...@sybase.sybase.com> tho...@sybase.com (Thorick Chow) writes:
> >I've sometimes wondered why he didn't try full-time teaching of MA
> >for a living. One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
> >on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
> >without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
> >necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
> >enough students that he could have gotten by).. i.e. he didn't
> >have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...
>
> There are bad people both in and out of commercial schools,
> and there are good people both in and out of commercial schools.
>
> One can argue that, if a person is teaching without a fee,
> or is not running a commercial school, that he or she must
> be teaching from noble motives, but that is a specious
> argument. After all, greed is not the only ignoble motivation
> that people might have for doing something.
On the other hand...
I'm kind of new to martial arts (been studying for about 2 years now).
I study a style called Cuong Nhu (vietnamese for Hard/Soft). The style
was founded around 1965 by Master Ngo Dong, and is based on techniques
from seven other styles that he mastered:
Shotokan
Vovinam
Boxing
Wing Chun
Judo
Aikido
Tai Chi
The lower belts in the style concentrate more on the hard/external
styles above, and as progress is made, soft/internal elements are
added to the curriculum.
He founded the style on a philosophy that in order to teach, one must
have a love of the art, and a desire to teach. So no teacher of this
style worldwide is allowed to make a profit by teaching. My classes
are free (there are about 7 regular students). The instructor teaches
out of a rec room at an elementary school that lets him use the
facilities at no charge. There are some studios that charge fees,
but the charge for those students is limited to the cost for the
upkeep of the dojo.
To make a long story short (I know, too late :-), I agree that you can
have good and bad teachers in either commercial schools, or with
people who just teach on their own. My experience with Cuong Nhu has
(happily) been very positive.
--
____________________________________________
| _ _ _+ |
| Michael D. Carney /_`-'_`-'_| \+/ |
| car...@rational.com \_`M'_`C'_| _<=>_ |
| `-' `-' 0/ .[\ ] |
| "Remember... \/[.[\\] |
| no matter where you | /_\_\/ |
| go, there you are" -B.B | [] [] |
|_________________________________|_d]_[b____|
Stephen Chan x4485
> is grevious crime to the very martial spirit which was
> once the backbone of "the arts". My reasons for feeling
> this way are uniquely mine -- since this is, by nature,
> very much of an opinion kind of a thing. I feel that the
> capitalization of humankinds' skills, to turn what it is
> that a person can do into a commodity, is to fundamentally
> alienate humanity from itself. Humankind becomes part of
> the very mechanism of capital which humankind itself created
> and the creator ends up serving its creation ... This is
> a quasi-poetic attempt at voicing a bit of a neo-marxist
> view on the nature of captialism. But not to stray to far
> afeild -- yes, I think that going commercial is a sell out.
Sheeesh...read more Zen or Taoism and less Marx, and maybe you'll
decide that alienation is a symptom of attachment. Who is interpreting MA in
a foreign context now?
> And here comes a completely modern twist ... Don't
> sell out! Keep ma underground and keep it punk! Check out
> the martial art history of Okinaowa ... strong tradtion of
> underground rebellion against an oppressive society.
Check out the martial tradition of Japan. Martial arts were for the
oppressive military class. Check out the martial tradition of China, many of
the Kung-Fu schools were/are training camps for criminals and subversives.
> Strong tradition of self-reliance. What about ... Capoerica?
> ... that martial art that came from African slaves learning
> to fight while in shackles. What about ninjitsu? Could
> one possibly get any more radical than that?
I think that you are projecting your own romantic notions
into some kind of Truth(tm) about MA in general.
Nothing wrong with romanticism - it makes the dreary cycle of birth,
reproduction and death a LOT more interesting. The Chinese martial arts are
certainly rich in history, tradition and a certain kind of romance. I once
saw a Kung-Fu form which was nominally created by a man imprisoned for his
political views: much of the form was practiced as if the martial artist's
hands were in shackles - at one point, he snaps apart the chains, and is free
to fight with both hands.
I thought it was immensely cool.
> Or at least, how can you truely speak of a martial art
> unless there is fighting of some sort which is a common
> factor in you're life. Not just the potentiality but
> rather the actuality ... To talk of such a thing, would
> it not be a bit pretentious? Would this not make for a
> "pack of suburban commandos?" ... Any comments on this?
> please?
You answered your own question: martial arts come from a particular
culture, with it's history and traditions. By practicing a martial art in a
traditional manner, you are showing respect for that tradition, and enjoying
the benefits of those people who actually had to use the stuff. If they didn't
want their art to live on, then they wouldn't have taught it. It's not
pretentious to perpetuate a rich and colorful heritage (In My Pretentious
Opinion)
Is it pretentious to say that you are proud to be an American, even
though you didn't sign the Declaration of Independence, or fight in the
--
Stephen Chan
uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!sc...@uunet.uu.net
Mike Carney
> In article <74...@apple.apple.COM> mi...@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
> > In article <25...@sybase.sybase.com> tho...@sybase.com (Thorick Chow) writes:
> > >I've sometimes wondered why he didn't try full-time teaching of MA
> > >for a living. One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
> > >on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
> > >without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
> > >necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
> > >enough students that he could have gotten by).. i.e. he didn't
> > >have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...
> >
> > There are bad people both in and out of commercial schools,
> > and there are good people both in and out of commercial schools.
> >
> > One can argue that, if a person is teaching without a fee,
> > or is not running a commercial school, that he or she must
> > be teaching from noble motives, but that is a specious
> > argument. After all, greed is not the only ignoble motivation
> > that people might have for doing something.
>
> On the other hand...
>
> I'm kind of new to martial arts (been studying for about 2 years now).
> I study a style called Cuong Nhu (vietnamese for Hard/Soft). The style
> was founded around 1965 by Master Ngo Dong, and is based on techniques
> from seven other styles that he mastered:
^^^^^^^^
> Shotokan
> Vovinam
> Boxing
> Wing Chun
> Judo
> Aikido
> Tai Chi
> etc.
Well, I'm the original poster of this, and I received a piece of mail
reminding me how difficult it is to *master* any art, let alone 7 of
them. So, before I get flamed (which I imagine is quite likely), let
me relate the story as it comes out of the _Cuong Nhu Instruction
Manual_:
"Master Dong's history as a martial artist goes back to his youth,
where he learned how to defend himself against small-time hustlers and
professional street fighters. Early in school, Master Dong learned and
practiced Vovinam, the Vietnamese martial art, as did most of his
contemporaries. His childhood background in Vovinam was supplemented
by training in Wing Chun prior to moving to Hue in 1956. There he
began intensive training under a Japanese military captain, Choji
Suzuki, who had remained in Viet Nam following World War II.
"After years of hard training and earning a fourth degree balck belt
in Shotokan karate, Master Dong discovered aikido. He learned the
newest of martial arts from Ernie Cates, and American lieutenant
stationed in Viet Nam who had been a member of the U.S. Olympic judo
team in 1960. In aikido, he found that the spiritual emphasis on Ki
and its application of inner sources of universal strength enabled
even the smallest person to overcome the brute force of the most
formidable opponent. He also found the instruction to be geared toward
building the students' moral character. During this time he earned a
black belt in Judo. He did not abandon Shototkan, however, but
modified and combined its techniques with the soft styles he had
learned and named his new martial art Cuong Nhu."
I'm sorry if I offended any practitioners of the arts I listed in my
original posting.
Anyway, the purpose of the original post was to show that it is
possible to find good martial arts training outside of a commercial
school, not to show that "my art is better than your art", or "my
master is better than your master". IMHO, there is no best
art, or worst art. To quote again from the _Cuong Nhu Instruction
Manual_:
"I respect other styles and use martial arts only to defend myself and
help others. Have harmony with others in the martial arts. If you like
some styles but reject others, you cannot keep a balance in your
attitude toward, and application of, the Code of Ethics [described
earlier in the manual]."
I hope this clears things up. And thanks to whoever it was that
pointed out the flaws in my original posting (I forget his/her name).
Richard A Shandross
>Damien Kixk (kic...@studsys.mscs.mu.edu) wrote:
>:
>: I feel that the commercialization of the martial arts
>: is grevious crime to the very martial spirit which was
>: once the backbone of "the arts". My reasons for feeling
>: this way are uniquely mine -- since this is, by nature,
>: very much of an opinion kind of a thing. I feel that the
>: capitalization of humankinds' skills, to turn what it is
>: that a person can do into a commodity, is to fundamentally
>: alienate humanity from itself. Humankind becomes part of
>: the very mechanism of capital which humankind itself created
>: and the creator ends up serving its creation ... This is
>: a quasi-poetic attempt at voicing a bit of a neo-marxist
>: view on the nature of captialism. But not to stray to far
>: afeild -- yes, I think that going commercial is a sell out.
>:
>: No wonder the old masters were reluctant to teach their
>: art to outsiders ...
>:
>
>
>that would take them in and thoroughly teach them an art.
>However, the number of masters willing to do this is far
>fewer than the number of students wanting such instruction.
>Also those who are truly skilled can make a much more
>comfortable life for their families if they go "commercial"
>and offer to teach their skills for a fee to as many students
>as they can handle. There is a benefit to the rest of us
>when they do that: they can reach many more students that
>way, thus making their skill available to more of us wanting
>to learn. I admit it's not the best way to learn an art,
>and it certainly lends itself to abuse by shysters, but
>it gives the most people a chance to explore the martial arts.
>
This is a very complex question, and not being a master, I don't know that I
can put myself in one's place and know what they deal with and what kind of
perspective that level of skill endows. But I have some ideas as to what being
"a master" means, and that has some bearing on the argument.
Being a master, as I see it, is being in touch with one's true self. The art
is the *tool* the master uses to get there. The question then becomes, "What
does the person's true self want to do with his or her life?" For some,
teaching others is of prime importance. For others, teaching makes no sense,
and they could do anything from being a janitor to being a high school
administrator, or maybe an official in a martial arts organization, or a
traditional doctor, or who knows what.
Damien seems to take the view that certain activities are "dirtier" than
others; in particular those involving money. A true master is free, and
nothing he or she does is dirty because everything they do is from the heart
and they and everyone around them benefits from it. We all have to work to
live - whether you find that to be true from the Bible or just observation on
life - and I have enormous respect for those who have found the occupation
which they love and which fulfills them. Most of us feel that we are supposed
to hate our jobs, not love them, and we walk around miserable all the time.
The only thing that dirties us is our failing to search for that which we truly
love to do. Should Frank Sinatra not sing for money? George Burns tell jokes
in his living room and be an accountant instead? The true professional gets
better and better because of the job (for example, compare our professional
basketball players to the non-professional Olympians). The time to get out is
when it is *just* for money.
The sense I get is that the old masters - and some current ones - were
reluctant to teach their arts for a variety of reasons: fear of others getting
stronger than they were (here I have to doubt if *those* were true masters,
though they may have been highly skilled; as I understand it, reaching higher
levels frees one from petty concerns like that); fear of students misusing the
art in the sense of hurting others; lack of students who might truly love the
art and thereby be able to accept it with a spirit which doesn't distort it; a
disinclination to teach or acknowledgement of the lack of teaching skills; or
any other reason which hinges on a belief that trying to teach to a particular
person would harm the art. Also, a tradition of transmission within families
or villages. (It's not easy to see through traditions.)
And I understand that the decisions to teach more openly have come about for a
couple of reasons too: fear that the art would die out if not spread...
especially with more sons and daughters deciding to hell with the old man's
ways, I'm going to make a buck; realization of the great power of the art to
help humanity and a desire to do so; the advent of modern weapons - bad folk
could just pick up a gun and do major harm now and would be less inclined to
study 20 years anymore; feeling a need to get fresh blood into the art to give
it more vitality and so it might benefit from other perspectives; and others.
*On the other hand*, there is no doubt that "going commercial" in the common
sense of the term, results in a lot of watering down, or potential watering
down, of an art. I would expect that most real masters who do that are doing
so with the thought that what they are giving the average student is a set of
fancy calisthenics with the added benefit of increasing their odds of survival
in a fight. And when they find a student who has the proper attitude and
discipline, they impart the art itself to that person. As to the ethicality
(or whatever it's called) of this practice, I'd maintain that (a) the students
with lax attitudes and discipline are not really there to get the whole art
anyway, so they are getting what they paid for, and (b) there's nothing wrong
with making a living teaching beneficial exercises to people, and some people
love doing that - all the better that it's related to their beloved art, and
the serious students are their "icing on the cake." But if all they are doing
is mass production black belt for $$ without really enjoying it and with little
care about the transmission of the art, I highly doubt they are really a master
as I define it. Just a skilled hack. It's amazing, but even *they* can turn
out a few people who eventually become real masters (elsewhere), because there
*are* people who's path in life includes the need to learn the true from the
"looks true" and these folks give them just that opportunity.
Rich
Kevin Sven Berg
Gee, parts of East L.A. still look like Lebanon ;-)
Does that qualify?
Kevin
--
Kevin Sven Berg / / / / P / a / g / e / s
ke...@pages.com / / / / / / / /
Pages Software Inc. / / / / / / / /
619-492-9050 ` ` ` ` ` ` ` `
--
Kevin Sven Berg / / / / P / a / g / e / s
ke...@pages.com / / / / / / / /
Pages Software Inc. / / / / / / / /
619-492-9050 ` ` ` ` ` ` ` `
Damien Kixk
>In article <1dna0n...@spool.mu.edu>
>>
>> And here comes a completely modern twist ... Don't
>> sell out! Keep ma underground and keep it punk! Check out
>> the martial art history of Okinaowa ... strong tradtion of
>> underground rebellion against an oppressive society.
>> Strong tradition of self-reliance. What about ... Capoerica?
>> ... that martial art that came from African slaves learning
>> to fight while in shackles. What about ninjitsu? Could
>> one possibly get any more radical than that?
>> ... I feel that no true art should be made commercial.
>> Keep it underground ... keep it "punk".
>
>Hmm. I see a couple problems with your idea. You ignore
>the benefits that have come out of commercialization of the martial
>arts. Nowadays anybody can drop into a dojo/dojang/kwoon and take
>a couple lessons or watch a class, and because of that the martial
>arts are more generally accepted. If you radicalize the arts (as
>seems to be your intention), you're going to worry a lot of the
>people who have to worry about radical warriors. The Police come
>to mind, as does the FBI investigating armed radical bands. Not to
>mention the fact that your instructor will have control of a very
>tight little clique of secretive martial artists separated from
>society as a whole and will certainly be tempted to take things
>to extremes (check out the cult posts this week).
Yeah ... this was a came across a little much ...
Just another angle I wanted to 'test' on the idea of
not going commercial combined with the martial arts
having, in my opinion, a much more meaningful origin
than that of a 'pop-martial culture'. Delving into
the quasi-political aspect which I think can be seen
in the history of the martial arts and which I think
has arisen from the strong tradition of independence,
inner strength and a sense of purpose which has also
been a big part of traditional martial arts.
... <stuff deleted> ...
>> Which I think brings up the question of -- How can
>> we truely speak of there being a martial art if not in
>> the presence of a martial society?
>
>I'm sorry, but this is pretty ludicrous. You don't have to
>be at war to learn the art of war. And the point of the martial
>arts is to learn to live a better life, not go off to war and die.
>If you want to head off to Lebanon to learn the martial arts, be
>my guest, but I just got done reading an article about a Lebanese
>karate instructor (the "father of Lebanese Karate" as a matter of
>fact) who moved to California.
>
... ummm, I kinda want to respond to your "... is
pretty ludicrous." position in some detail -- ie, at least
with more forethought than I can give to such a response
at this moment. However, do you remember where, in what
magazine etc., you read that article. I would be interest-
ed in reading it since you more-or-less cited it as a refer-
ence -- also, would be interested in reading it since this
is a question to which I have given some thought recently.
Your help in locating this article would be appreciated.
Lauren Radner
>Things have gotten so bad with people inventing their own
>styles and techniques after only a limited time of study. I used to
>train at one of these McDojo's and i am thankful for many of the
^^^^^^^^
*GREAT* word!
-Lauren
Dakin Burdick
>>If you want to head off to Lebanon to learn the martial arts, be
>>my guest, but I just got done reading an article about a Lebanese
>>karate instructor (the "father of Lebanese Karate" as a matter of
>>fact) who moved to California.
> However, do you remember where, in what
> magazine etc., you read that article. I would be interest-
> ed in reading it since you more-or-less cited it as a refer-
> ence -- also, would be interested in reading it since this
> is a question to which I have given some thought recently.
The article was about David Chaanine (b. c1945). The citation was:
Karr, Nickolas, "Tae Kwon Do: A Tool for Peace or Destruction?"
_Black Belt_, 15:11 (Nov. 1977), pp. 28-32.
Since I'm doing my dissertation on the history of the martial arts in
America, my instructor, Don Burns (martial arts coordinator at I.U.),
is letting my go through his old magazines and files. This article
was in there.
Dakin
burd...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
B K DAVIS
I have studied many different styles and I am focusing on an art call
Buddha's Palm. I was wondering if anyone else has heard of this art form
before. It deals mainly with hand strikes palms especially.
Brian K. Davis
aka
The Black Buddha
Mary Malmros
In article <1dna0n...@spool.mu.edu> kic...@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Damien Kixk) writes:
[snip]
No wonder the old masters were reluctant to teach their
art to outsiders ...
And here comes a completely modern twist ... Don't
sell out! Keep ma underground and keep it punk! Check out
the martial art history of Okinaowa ... strong tradtion of
underground rebellion against an oppressive society.
Strong tradition of self-reliance. What about ... Capoerica?
... that martial art that came from African slaves learning
to fight while in shackles.
That frequently-recited story of the origins of capoeira seems to
be a little like the old story about how Korean arts have high
kicking skills because they were developed by people fighting
against mounted attackers. Both are poetic attempts to explain
some of the characteristics of a style, but neither has any
significant historical evidence to support it. They're nice,
dramatic stories, but that's all that they are: stories.
I refer you to Bira Almeida's book on capoeira for a more thorough
analysis on the history and development of capoeira.
[snip]
Which I think brings up the question of -- How can
we truely speak of there being a martial art if not in
the presence of a martial society? Hypothetically: The
only county which could truely speak of having a martial
art would be a war torn country ... and who would want
that? How can there be martial arts where there is peace?
Or at least, how can you truely speak of a martial art
unless there is fighting of some sort which is a common
factor in you're life. Not just the potentiality but
rather the actuality ... To talk of such a thing, would
it not be a bit pretentious? Would this not make for a
"pack of suburban commandos?" ... Any comments on this?
please?
Isn't it true that many, if not most, of the arts we speak of
were developed in just such environments? To say that they are
no longer martial arts because they are no longer practiced by
people at war, is a little like saying a gun's no longer a gun
because you don't shoot someone every day with it.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mary Malmros | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
ma...@cayman.com | Phone 617-494-1999 Fax 617-494-5167 AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
VSI Shell Account
...What is Aikido, Koichi Tohei
...This is Aikido, Koichi Tohei
...Aikido in Daily Life, Koichi Tohei
...Aikido: 50 Basic Arts, Koichi Tohei
...Aikido with Ki, Maruyama
I have a list...I will post more as I remember the exact names and
authors' names.
I seem to have a bias towards Ki-Aikido. I like the way I feel as I
practice, and it has been very effective for me in real situations.
Most of the books by Tohei are out-of-print and/or undergoing revision
and reprinting. My copies have been lost, and if anyone can provide me
with replacements I will be VERY grateful.
The Tozai-ji is also interested in acquiring films, videotapes or
whatever of demonstrations and seminars.
Please send e-mail to sco...@NeoSoft.com with my name in the
subject line...(our company NIC registration hasn't finished yet).
Thanks for forgiving all my net.gaffe...Mike Burke
Eugene Tyurin
I remember watching a Hong-Kong (?) movie "Shaolin against Lama"
(or something like this). There one student was specially taught a SECRET
SHAOLIN STYLE called Buddha's Fingers -- I guess it's the same.
Quote from the movie:
"And remember -- if you apply this style correctly -- NOBODY can ever beat you"
Greenoch?? :-)
______________________________________________________________________________
Eugene N. Tyurin <+> ge...@max.physics.sunysb.edu
Physics Department <+> Two wrongs do not make it right, but three lefts do.
SUNY @ Stony Brook <+> W. Siegel (unpublished)
Ernst Krudl
description available (a few pages) does not cover everthing, that is taught
in the course (obviously). The exercise emphasizes the training of the
qi in the hands. Just by the base post I realized there are movements that
may be applied in MA as well. As far as creating strong local qi sensation
(warmth, tingling etc.) I found this exercise one of the most powerfull
I came across.
Ernst Krudl, Vienna, Austria
Mary Malmros
In article <721493...@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> ric...@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz (Richard Parry) writes:
In article <25...@sybase.sybase.com> tho...@sybase.com writes:
> I've sometimes wondered why he didn't try full-time teaching of MA
> for a living. One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
> on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
> without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
> necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
> enough students that he could have gotten by).. i.e. he didn't
> have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...
Funny you should mention that. A lot of us folks down here in New
Zealand recon that American martial arts are too commercialised - you
charge for the lessons, to make a profit.
BZZT! Wrong, but thanks for playing.
SOME Americans who teach martial arts charge money. Some don't.
Of those who do, some make a profit. Some don't.
Some even go so far as to
have different colour uniforms for different belt levels.
Different color uniform or different color belt or different color
propeller on your beanie, what's the difference? It's just rank
insignia. Some systems and schools use rank insignia, some don't.
BFD.
There's a
whole market of different "fan" things - Body Alive (tm) poseurware, for
instance (IMHO).
Body Alive? What's that?
Down here in NZ, I have yet to find anyone who teaches karate for a
living - even a profit. They all charge just as much as they need to -
some months they lose a bit, others they make a bit. When they've paid
back the loss, they buy new gear for the club - bags, weapons, and the
like.
Somehow I have a very hard time believing that every martial arts school
in NZ that charges money is operating on a "break exactly even" basis.
Sorry, I'll rephrase that - there's one guy who has a chain of
"ninjitsu" schools around the country, and he must make a killing - he
charges enough for his classes... ;)
Seems I was right...
We pretty much feel that if you are making money out of a love of
something (take that however you like), you are indeed cheapening it.
Can I ask a really stupid question here? Do you really feel that you
can speak for all martial artists in NZ? If not, why do you keep saying
"we"?
My Shihan has dedicated his life to karate, without any rewards, because
he loves it. He also had a steady daytime job so he could eat... ;)
Well, good for him. My jodo sensei teaches in much the same way (although
I doubt he'd use such a hyperbolic phrase as "dedicated his life to...").
As I said before, some do, some don't.
It means he can teach karate the way karate (our style) is supposed to
be taught. He doesn't get flack from people wanting higher belts,
because they are not so much paying for a service as sharing the cost of
the dojo. It makes for a happier dojo, wich leads to better training.
I was indeed shocked to find out how much the average US citizen pays
for their tuition.
Really? How much is that?
Somehow I don't think you have any idea about what the "average US citizen"
pays for MA training. You have probably heard a few figures from a few
people, but I don't think you have any idea about what the "average" is.
Certainly I don't know what the "average" is, and I'd venture a guess that
I probably have more data to go on than you do. So perhaps you have heard
some numbers that shocked you -- trust me, I have too -- but I wouldn't
generalize that to say that's what the "average" student pays.
I train 4 nights a week, twice for one hour, and
twice for two hours. It costs me NZ$20 per month - that's about US$12.
That's less that $1 an hour... In fact, about US$0.50 an hour. Think
about it. Our dojo is largish for our city (small city by US standards,
big by ours), having about 70 paid members (including juniors, which are
charged by the school term, or $20/term, 3 terms a year - $60 per year,
training twice a week). We rent a floor of a professional dance studio,
with proper sprung wooden floors, a wall covered in floor-ceiling
mirrors, and a nice collection of pads and bags (with hangers). Are you
guys paying too much or too little? Think about it.
Okay, so let's see...70 paid members at US$12 a month is US$840. Say half of
them are juniors, that's 35x12+35x3=US$550, if I'm not mistaken. My sensei,
on the other hand, is taking in a total of about US$210 a month. He's renting
a space similar to the one that you describe. Real estate costs in this area
are the third highest in the US, so I'm guessing he's probably paying more
than your sensei. Oh, and by the way, he teaches two three-hour classes a
week.
Are you paying too much or too little? *grin* Think about it.
It makes you think about why the person who is teaching you is teaching
you. If they charge, they could be after the money, and not have your
real interests at heart. Someone who teaches because they want to has
karate (insert favourite MA here) at heart.
Comments?
Well, to summarize, I think you have a lot of valid points about
commercialization of MA; however, your examples are flawed. I cited
a good counterexample to this trend that you claim of rampant overcharging
in US schools, and I'm sure that you'll find that many other US students
are paying no more than you are, or perhaps less, for memberships in
university clubs. Many of them have opportunities to train with very
fine teachers for a very small fee.
Perhaps the best point of your article, and what you really should
have emphasized IMHO, is that there are alternatives available to
someone who wishes to teach martial arts without "going commercial".
But you should realize that your school has an advantage that others
of its type don't often share; that is, relatively high membership.
My sensei has a total of four students at present...not because he's
not a good teacher, but because jodo is perhaps not as exciting or
dramatic as a lot of other martial arts. When a prospective student
goes to see a karate class for the first time, they find it very exciting.
They get all charged up and are willing to give it a try. The "hard
long boring practice" aspect of it is not so apparent to them at first.
They see people doing all kinds of exciting things, and they want to
try too. In contrast, when a prospective student comes to see one
of our jo classes, the "hard long boring practice" aspect is very
apparent, and the really exciting aspects of the art are too subtle
to be recognized by a non-martial artist. Of ten people who take the
trouble to come and watch our classes, perhaps one will join. Of the
ones who join, perhaps one in three or four will stay with it long
enough to learn to like it. So our membership stays low. A lot of
people love to teach, but not many can afford to do so under those
circumstances.
Warren G. Anderson
> We pretty much feel that if you are making money out of a love of
> something (take that however you like), you are indeed cheapening it.
Interesting attitude. I love physics and I make a (meager) living out of
doing it. I don't really feel like I'm cheapening it. By your philosophy,
if anyone has a job doing something they love they should give up the job
so that they can get one doing something they don't love and then just
pursue the thing they love on a hobby level.
All the best. Hope your doing something you dislike suitably for a living.
--
########################## _`|'_ ##############################################
## Warren G. Anderson |o o| "... for its truth does not matter, and is ##
## Dept. of Physics ( ^ ) unimaginable." -J. Ashbery, The New Spirit ##
## University of Alberta /\-/\ (ande...@fermi.phys.ualberta.ca) ##
Charles Yeomans
>
>In article <25...@sybase.sybase.com> tho...@sybase.com writes:
>
> > I've sometimes wondered why he didn't try full-time teaching of MA
> > for a living. One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
> > on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
> > without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
> > necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
> > enough students that he could have gotten by).. i.e. he didn't
> > have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...
>
>Funny you should mention that. A lot of us folks down here in New
>Zealand recon that American martial arts are too commercialised - you
>have different colour uniforms for different belt levels. There's a
>whole market of different "fan" things - Body Alive (tm) poseurware, for
>instance (IMHO).
>
>living - even a profit. They all charge just as much as they need to -
>some months they lose a bit, others they make a bit. When they've paid
>back the loss, they buy new gear for the club - bags, weapons, and the
>like.
>
>"ninjitsu" schools around the country, and he must make a killing - he
>charges enough for his classes... ;)
>
>something (take that however you like), you are indeed cheapening it.
>he loves it. He also had a steady daytime job so he could eat... ;)
>
>be taught. He doesn't get flack from people wanting higher belts,
>because they are not so much paying for a service as sharing the cost of
>the dojo. It makes for a happier dojo, wich leads to better training.
>
>I was indeed shocked to find out how much the average US citizen pays
>twice for two hours. It costs me NZ$20 per month - that's about US$12.
>That's less that $1 an hour... In fact, about US$0.50 an hour. Think
>about it. Our dojo is largish for our city (small city by US standards,
>big by ours), having about 70 paid members (including juniors, which are
>charged by the school term, or $20/term, 3 terms a year - $60 per year,
>training twice a week). We rent a floor of a professional dance studio,
>with proper sprung wooden floors, a wall covered in floor-ceiling
>mirrors, and a nice collection of pads and bags (with hangers). Are you
>guys paying too much or too little? Think about it.
>
>you. If they charge, they could be after the money, and not have your
>real interests at heart. Someone who teaches because they want to has
>karate (insert favourite MA here) at heart.
>
>Comments?
>
As I recall, it was this very sam Kiwi attitude that nearly drove John Walker
out of track and field.
I am paid money to teach mathematics. I happen to like mathmematics
very much; I don't think that my enthusiasm is lessened or the quality
of instruction goes down because I teach for money.
And most martial arts instruction has not been given away. Indeed, consider
Moreihei Ueshiba's complaints about the amount of money he spent on
Sokado Takeda, founder and purveyor of Daito-ryu aikijutsu. Yet, O-sensei
appeared to have learned a trick or two.
What is almost always better in a noncommercial school is the quality of
the students, asthe instructor can boot the ones who aren't really there
to learn.
I dream of opening such a university.
Charles Yeomans
cyeo...@ms.uky.edu
yeo...@austin.onu.edu
Brenda Romans
I too was surprised at the way martial arts are taught in the USA. I did
Shotokan Karate for a couple of years here in England and just paid the going
rate for any sports at the sports hall (approx 1 pound to 1.50). After about a
year the instructor packed in his job to teach Karate full time because he
loved it. I don't know how he made any money because he didn't charge any
more. The "important" Shotokan guys from Liverpool seemed to be making money
but this was from commercial ventures associated with Karate - manufacturing
suits and bags, making videos and writing books. They did hold special
training sessions and courses throughout the country but the charges were
nothing much, maybe five pounds for a one day course (and it might not even
have been that.) I don't think that you can make much money in England just
doing martial arts training, people just wouldn't pay.
Judo in England is quite different. At my club I pay 1.50 (pounds) for a 1.5
hour session and *all* the money goes into club funds. It pays for the hall
fees and anything else that the club needs. The guys in charge run the club
and teach because the like doing it, and it's a pretty good club. I have never
heard of Judo training being run on a commercial basis. Maybe judo is
different because it is more of a sport.
BTW, I've never paid term fees - the arrangement at any judo or Karate club
I've been to was to pay whatever the fee was on the night. If I didn't go, I
didn't pay.
How exactly do the operations in the USA work?
How much do you pay?
Are there commercial Judo outfits?
Cheers
Brenda
------------------------------------------------------------------
Brenda Romans @ HP Labs | Phone: (0272) 228705
Information Systems Centre | b...@hpl.hp.co.uk
Bristol | ber%hplb...@ukc.ac.uk
U.K. | b...@hplb.hpl.hp.com
Richard Parry
In a wiseass mood again...? 8-) Well, here's the retorts...
In article <MARY.92No...@martinique.Cayman.COM> ma...@Cayman.COM writes:
> SOME Americans who teach martial arts charge money. Some don't.
> Of those who do, some make a profit. Some don't.
Fair enough. I was talking from my references, which included about 4
people who's sempai didn't make a profit, and about 20 who's sempai did.
Make bad odds... You tell me. If it makes a difference, the two areas
I was staying were Harbour City (LA, Cal) and New York (NY, NY :)
> Different color uniform or different color belt or different color
> propeller on your beanie, what's the difference? It's just rank
> insignia. Some systems and schools use rank insignia, some don't.
> BFD.
Go over the top, huh. I agree with the precept that there should be
some indication of rank, for discipline reasons, and also for personal
gain. But a whole new colour gi is like wearing a jacket with huge
letters saying, "I'm a tough guy cause I do karate..."
> Body Alive? What's that?
Ah. I'll make an exception in your case... :) It's a whole range of
pants and tops done in a modern fashion - you could even wear it on the
street. Muscle-shirt type tops, multi-colour pants. Could look quite
good, if you were into wearing Reebok stuff already.
> Somehow I have a very hard time believing that every martial arts school
> in NZ that charges money is operating on a "break exactly even" basis.
[snip]
> Seems I was right...
Yeah. One out of... uh, a few hundred, at least... is pretty good odds.
I dunno. Ask around - maybe some other guys down here have heard about
clubs that I haven't. But this Ninjitsu is definitely a McDojo.
> Can I ask a really stupid question here? Do you really feel that you
> can speak for all martial artists in NZ? If not, why do you keep saying
> "we"?
Gee, I dunno. Why not? I haven't seen any adverse commments (yet) from
the guys down here, and even recieved a few good ones. Seems fair.
> Really? How much is that?
I dunno. You tell me. I can't quite remember, but it varied between
about US$5 per class, and about $100 per month. Too much. How much do
you pay? I've been out of touch with the US for a while - last time I
was there was 4 years ago.
> Somehow I don't think you have any idea about what the "average US citizen"
> pays for MA training. You have probably heard a few figures from a few
> people, but I don't think you have any idea about what the "average" is.
Fine. Lemme know when you meet one.
> Okay, so let's see...70 paid members at US$12 a month is US$840. Say half of
> them are juniors, that's 35x12+35x3=US$550, if I'm not mistaken. My sensei,
> on the other hand, is taking in a total of about US$210 a month. He's renting
> a space similar to the one that you describe. Real estate costs in this area
> are the third highest in the US, so I'm guessing he's probably paying more
> than your sensei. Oh, and by the way, he teaches two three-hour classes a
> week.
> Are you paying too much or too little? *grin* Think about it.
Hm. Let's see. Space is worth $15 an hour. That's, uh... 11 or 12
hours a week, say 11 (I'm not sure about the length of juniors classes).
Hmmmm.... 11x15=$165...x4 months=$660, which is about US$390, I fink.
We get the space at slightly less than it should be. I checked the
roster. We actually have about 50 paid members, including juniors. Hm.
25x12+25x3=$375... $390-$375=US$15 per month. That looks about right -
replacement bags every so often. We bought the dojo a barbie recently,
for social occasions, which we're still paying off... ;)
That's the equivalent of two three hour classes (two 2 hour and two 1
hour) normal classes, a special 2 hour womens' class, and two special
1.5 or 2 hour junior classes (not sure).
> Well, to summarize, I think you have a lot of valid points about
> commercialization of MA; however, your examples are flawed. I cited
Fair enough.
> are paying no more than you are, or perhaps less, for memberships in
> university clubs. Many of them have opportunities to train with very
> fine teachers for a very small fee.
I wasn't including varsity clubs - down here, they're ridiculously
cheap. Our style even offers one for $60 per year (which we give to the
Uni, I believe, so they buy the bags... I fink ;), which allows the Uni
students to train at our main dojo, plus two other 2 hour sessions at
the Uni itself.
> Perhaps the best point of your article, and what you really should
> have emphasized IMHO, is that there are alternatives available to
> someone who wishes to teach martial arts without "going commercial".
Hm. I will ponder that or my next spiel... ;-)
> But you should realize that your school has an advantage that others
> of its type don't often share; that is, relatively high membership.
Well, we are trying to build it even more. However, there are bigger
ones (I know of a South Island Judo club that has over 150 paid senior
members, I think), and smaller ones with less cost (I belonged to a
Hapkido dojang that charged $15 [US$8] a month, with about 8 members,
and an Aikido dojo, with about 15 members, at $10 [US$6] per month).
The way that small clubs survive is to be in accessable locations (ie,
schools) and get the space cheaper. Larger school like ourselves get a
better space for about the same, as we naturally attract more members
for the flashy club... ;) [It's a central city location, so people can
go right after work].
> My sensei has a total of four students at present...not because he's
> not a good teacher, but because jodo is perhaps not as exciting or
> dramatic as a lot of other martial arts. When a prospective student
Yeah. I prefer a smaller class sometimes, and it's no reflection on the
teacher - can be the location, or (as you said) more dramatic arts
closer, or....
> goes to see a karate class for the first time, they find it very exciting.
> They get all charged up and are willing to give it a try. The "hard
> long boring practice" aspect of it is not so apparent to them at first.
> They see people doing all kinds of exciting things, and they want to
> try too. In contrast, when a prospective student comes to see one
> of our jo classes, the "hard long boring practice" aspect is very
> apparent, and the really exciting aspects of the art are too subtle
> to be recognized by a non-martial artist. Of ten people who take the
> trouble to come and watch our classes, perhaps one will join. Of the
> ones who join, perhaps one in three or four will stay with it long
> enough to learn to like it. So our membership stays low. A lot of
> people love to teach, but not many can afford to do so under those
> circumstances.
Yeah yeah. Same with us. For every 10 people who watch, about 2 stay
(not for the same reasons; I belive it's because of the profile of the
MA in our country...), and for those two, about 1/3 stay after the first
grading (face it - gradings can be hard, and for the average Jo Fu, it's
not a nice experience). Of that 1/3.... and so on, until you only get a
very few black belts.
Later!
Richard Parry
> > We pretty much feel that if you are making money out of a love of
> > something (take that however you like), you are indeed cheapening it.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Interesting attitude. I love physics and I make a (meager) living out of
> doing it. I don't really feel like I'm cheapening it. By your philosophy,
Like I said, take that however you like. You devote yourself selflessly
(maybe I should qrite Mills & Boon for a living :) to something, paying
very little to your sempai, and then suddenly start your own club and
charge heaps.
Hm. Interesting attitude.
> if anyone has a job doing something they love they should give up the job
> so that they can get one doing something they don't love and then just
> pursue the thing they love on a hobby level.
Not _exactly_ what I said...
> All the best. Hope your doing something you dislike suitably for a living.
No worries... ;)
Perhaps I shouldn'y have brought this topic up. Seems that NZers agree
with me, and the US guys don't like haveing the blantantly obvious shown
to them.
It's a common catch phrase down here...:
"Let's get our shodans and Intructors' Certs, and go to the
States to teach!"
Richard Parry
> very much; I don't think that my enthusiasm is lessened or the quality
> of instruction goes down because I teach for money.
>
> What is almost always better in a noncommercial school is the quality of
> the students, asthe instructor can boot the ones who aren't really there
> to learn.
>
> I dream of opening such a university.
Don't we all?
There's making a living, and then there's a McDojo... Still, I belive
that if you are taught for very little, you should teach in the same
way... What goes around, comes around.
Walker is still around. So is that horse guy. They just have no
money...;) Sponsorship is the key, and sponsorship is not generally
given to non-glamorous sports. I mean, for chrissakes! It's hard
enough to get funding for our own tournaments! Let alone TV coverage!
In the US, martial arts enjoy a much nicer profile (we can see that from
here) - you even have specialty magazines (Black Belt etc). Down here,
martial arts can sometimes been seen as a dirty scody dishonourable
thing - much nicer to go with the nicer arts of boxing. However, our
entire society is geared towards non-violence, and even boxing is not
tha popular.
Oh, for a Japanese or Korean attitude! 8-)
Stephen Northcutt - K31
OK fine. I would just like to point out that it is not possible
to prove that $$$ ::= lesser training (or the converse). I am
an instructor of martial arts. I work for a commercial school.
Over the years I have posted about:
- sleepovers, where we train for hours in focus groups,
they use games that teach certain skills, then pretend to go to sleep.
- special seminars including:
+ weapons
+ how to deal with bullies
+ women self defense
+ breaking skills
- training outdoors in all seasons
- training in the river
- entering in a marching band competition and using it
as one Looooong basics training floor
- special classes for kids with learning disabilities
esp ADD, ADHD.
- mock tournaments (shiais (sp?) where we invite affiliated
schools and compete for nothing but applause and then
we all sit down on the floor for a pot luck dinner
- Coaching (and being fired as coach) of the tournament
competition group
Now this school also teaches all the required techniques for both
WTF and ITF BBs. Note well, it is only possible to do all this
because we a rich fat commerical school with a lot of students
who are all from fairly wealth families who can afford to pay for
their schools tuition so that instructors like me can be paid, so
that each kid can have their own sparring gear, so that they can
afford for their kids to travel to enter tournaments, so we can
afford to have visiting highly ranked Masters like Chong Su Kim
give seminars. These sorts of things take $$$.
Now lest anyone claim that I am socially insensitive, I am still
smarting from my failure to open up a branch school that could
be available for free, to almost no money in a less fortunate part
of the city. I put a lot of time in, trying to get insurance,
hold harmless clauses for the landlord, get the uniforms at a
reasonable price and so forth. It is very hard to put a package
together that doesn't require charging at least $30.00 month and
doesn't require a minimum of 20 students or you go broke.
Nor does a school have to do all the things we do, to be a good
MA school. The point is, these are extras, and we are blessed to
be able to offer them.
Note carefully the transition inserted here <:-)>
Clearly the most important extra we are able to offer is a
very ancient and potent chi gung training that enables the
practioner to absorb heat and flames with no apparent damage.
Good thing I have studied this faithfully, I suspect I'm gonna
need it!
To summarize, I am proud and honored to be a licensed authorized
instructor* under the Meik Do Sy$tem (tm). Say what you will about
your dedicated and impoverished instructor, but years of study
have taught us the simple truth:
The more you pay, the more you learn.
I realize that it is unusual for a mere silver belt to be an
instructor, but I bought, I mean earned my license from CEO $en$ei
Jeff himself.
Mark Urbin
>I too was surprised at the way martial arts are taught in the USA.
[SNIP]
>How exactly do the operations in the USA work?
There are no standards. When I've been charged money, it's been from $4
a month to $60 a month. I've also found people who require no payment other
than a good attitude (and sweeping the mats).
It's a big country and you find all types.
Mark Urbin Racal-Datacom Boxborough, MA ur...@interlan.interlan.com
These opinions are mine. No one else will admit to them.
"It is caffeine alone that sets my mind in motion. It is through beans of
java that thoughts acquire speed, that hands acquire shakes, that shakes
become a warning...I am...IN CONTROL...OF MY ADDICTION!"
--From the Minicon Graffiti Wall, 1989(?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Lo
>
>How much do you pay?
>
>Are there commercial Judo outfits?
>
>Cheers
>
the art.
I've met several so called teachers who know very little martial
art stuff but are great marketing guy.
My current teacher knows little about marketing and propaganda.
A while ago, he still operates at a loss. And he has to take
out from his own pocket. Now, I think he bearly breaks even.
I think tuition fee is usually higher in US. Everything is expensive
here including the rent. And I am willing to pay my Shifu.
He has to make a living too.
Bill Burgar
Brenda Romans (b...@otter.hpl.hp.com) writes
>I too was surprised at the way martial arts are taught in the USA. I did
>Shotokan Karate for a couple of years here in England and just paid the going
>rate for any sports at the sports hall (approx 1 pound to 1.50). After about a
>year the instructor packed in his job to teach Karate full time because he
>loved it. I don't know how he made any money because he didn't charge any
>more. The "important" Shotokan guys from Liverpool seemed to be making money
>but this was from commercial ventures associated with Karate - manufacturing
>suits and bags, making videos and writing books. They did hold special
>training sessions and courses throughout the country but the charges were
>nothing much, maybe five pounds for a one day course (and it might not even
>have been that.) I don't think that you can make much money in England just
>doing martial arts training, people just wouldn't pay.
>
In my experience this is not entirely true. Yes some dojo's find it hard
to exist. However, I know a large number of professional instructors. Some
make a handsom living from it. Especially the ones you ment5 training fees when
multiplied by the hundreds add up to a good hourly rate, even after all
the travel and hall expenses are paid.
I edit a karate magazine and so I tend to see a reasonably large number
of clubs on my travels.
There are, as far as I can see, three types of dojo.
1. 100% professional. The Instructor teaches full time. He pays the Hall
fees etc and takes the cash at the end of the evening. He does all the
advertising and has to ensure that there are enough feet on the mat to
pay the bills.
2. Semi professional. The Instructor teaches part time. His main income
is from another job. He teaches for the love of it and doesn't mind having
some extra cash at the end of the week. He pays the hall fees and it's
swings and roundabouts, some times he makes a good profit and some times
he has to fork out a bit out of his own pocket to pay for the hall.
3. Non professional. All cash goes into the club funds, the club pays for
the hall and other expenses. If there is extra cash it is usually spent
on equipment etc. The instructor doesn't care about having any extra cash
and also doesn't want the problems associated with running the club.
In nearly all of these clubs there is a secretary (not the instructor) who
is responsible for hall hire and collecting the money etc.
The thing all three have in common is that they all love their art and
the money (or lack of it) plays little part in their motivation to teach.
That's not to say that there are a great many people out there that are
ripping off the public left, right and centre - I just don't visit those
dojos (at least not more than once!).
Anybody have any other categories they want to add to the list.
Bill Burgar.
David Johnson
|>
|> Richard Parry writes:
|>
|> > We pretty much feel that if you are making money out of a love of
|> > something (take that however you like), you are indeed cheapening it.
|>
|> Interesting attitude. I love physics and I make a (meager) living out of
|> doing it. I don't really feel like I'm cheapening it. By your philosophy,
|> if anyone has a job doing something they love they should give up the job
|> so that they can get one doing something they don't love and then just
|> pursue the thing they love on a hobby level.
|>
|> All the best. Hope your doing something you dislike suitably for a living.
I agree with Warren. The martial arts teacher is entitled to make a
decent or even prosperous living if (s)he works at it hard enough.
Does Richard mean to say that a good and dedicated full time martial
arts instructor should not live above the poverty line?
My objection to the money thing in martial arts instruction is when
the art is compromised for the sake of getting more cash. Eg.,
promising to award a black belt to someone if that person stays
with the school x years (and spending y dollars in the process)
without regard to skill level.
When you attend a university you expect to pay for your education.
Utilities and upkeep need to be paid for. Instructors salaries
need to be paid (they deserve a decent living too). But you should
not expect to get a degree after attending the school for four
years if you paid your fees and was enrolled but never studied
and never performed well in class. The school be in the business
of educating you and you compensate the school for that education.
The educating is the school's mission. Collecting fees should only
be done as necessary to pay for operating it and keeping the
standards of quality high not for the purpose of keeping the fat cats fat.
--
David Johnson
XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
da...@xlnt.com
Chris Double
>
> > SOME Americans who teach martial arts charge money. Some don't.
> > Of those who do, some make a profit. Some don't.
>
> Fair enough. I was talking from my references, which included about 4
> people who's sempai didn't make a profit, and about 20 who's sempai did.
> Make bad odds... You tell me. If it makes a difference, the two areas
> I was staying were Harbour City (LA, Cal) and New York (NY, NY :)
>
statemate from 'statistics' gained from two cities??
Compare the statistics against all martial arts training in the
States and you will probably find a different story. The same goes
in the New Zealand clubs I've had involvment with...Some make a
profit and some don't.
> > Somehow I have a very hard time believing that every martial arts school
> > in NZ that charges money is operating on a "break exactly even" basis.
> [snip]
> > Seems I was right...
>
> Yeah. One out of... uh, a few hundred, at least... is pretty good odds.
> I dunno. Ask around - maybe some other guys down here have heard about
> clubs that I haven't. But this Ninjitsu is definitely a McDojo.
Remember that New Zealand does have a smaller population. It doesn't
have the number of martial artists to support large commercial
operations, hence the lower number of nationwide commercial dojos.
>
> > Can I ask a really stupid question here? Do you really feel that you
>
> Gee, I dunno. Why not? I haven't seen any adverse commments (yet) from
> the guys down here, and even recieved a few good ones. Seems fair.
>
Well, here's one :).
You certainly don't speak for me and therefore don't speak for all
martial artists in New Zealand.
There are some clubs here who operate on a break even basis and
there are some who operate at a profit. It doesn't really matter as
long as the instruction being given is good, and the students are
gaining from it.
Regards,
Chris Double
ch...@actrix.gen.nz
Mary Malmros
In article <1992Nov17.1...@relay.nswc.navy.mil> sno...@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt - K31) writes:
[snip]
To summarize, I am proud and honored to be a licensed authorized
instructor* under the Meik Do Sy$tem (tm). Say what you will about
your dedicated and impoverished instructor, but years of study
have taught us the simple truth:
The more you pay, the more you learn.
I realize that it is unusual for a mere silver belt to be an
instructor, but I bought, I mean earned my license from CEO $en$ei
Jeff himself.
Stephen, I am one of the founders of Meikdo. I studied Meikdo techniques
for many years. I trained many Meikdo instructors. Stephen, you're no
Meikdo instructor.
Mary Malmros
In article <722002...@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> ric...@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz (Richard Parry) writes:
Yo Mary!
In a wiseass mood again...? 8-)
Perenially ;-)
In article <MARY.92No...@martinique.Cayman.COM> ma...@Cayman.COM writes:
> SOME Americans who teach martial arts charge money. Some don't.
> Of those who do, some make a profit. Some don't.
Fair enough. I was talking from my references, which included about 4
people who's sempai didn't make a profit, and about 20 who's sempai did.
Think you mean "sensei"?
Make bad odds... You tell me. If it makes a difference, the two areas
I was staying were Harbour City (LA, Cal) and New York (NY, NY :)
Well...but consider also that the commercial schools are the easiest to
find -- they put a lot of energy into making sure that you know about
them -- and the "garage dojos" are a lot harder to find. So I do think
your sample is skewed.
Mind you, I have no idea what the actual numbers are. I don't think
anybody does, really.
> Different color uniform or different color belt or different color
> propeller on your beanie, what's the difference? It's just rank
> insignia. Some systems and schools use rank insignia, some don't.
> BFD.
Go over the top, huh. I agree with the precept that there should be
some indication of rank, for discipline reasons, and also for personal
gain. But a whole new colour gi is like wearing a jacket with huge
letters saying, "I'm a tough guy cause I do karate..."
True enough...I agree with you that it does seem pretty silly to have a
completely new uniform. Someone's making some bucks on that, you can bet.
> Body Alive? What's that?
Ah. I'll make an exception in your case... :) It's a whole range of
pants and tops done in a modern fashion - you could even wear it on the
street. Muscle-shirt type tops, multi-colour pants. Could look quite
good, if you were into wearing Reebok stuff already.
Never heard of it. What does it have to do with MA?
> Somehow I have a very hard time believing that every martial arts school
> in NZ that charges money is operating on a "break exactly even" basis.
[snip]
> Seems I was right...
Yeah. One out of... uh, a few hundred, at least... is pretty good odds.
I dunno. Ask around - maybe some other guys down here have heard about
clubs that I haven't. But this Ninjitsu is definitely a McDojo.
REALLY??? Do you really know of a few hundred schools, only one of which
is making a profit?
> Can I ask a really stupid question here? Do you really feel that you
> can speak for all martial artists in NZ? If not, why do you keep saying
> "we"?
Gee, I dunno. Why not? I haven't seen any adverse commments (yet) from
the guys down here, and even recieved a few good ones. Seems fair.
Well, as long as the NZers vote you their spokesman, I certainly have no
objection.
> Really? How much is that?
I dunno. You tell me. I can't quite remember, but it varied between
about US$5 per class, and about $100 per month. Too much. How much do
you pay? I've been out of touch with the US for a while - last time I
was there was 4 years ago.
I pay about $48 a month at one school (unlimited training time etc.) and
$65 a month at another. I'm sure both are too much by your standards.
Personally, I can afford it and I think they're worth it.
> Somehow I don't think you have any idea about what the "average US citizen"
> pays for MA training. You have probably heard a few figures from a few
> people, but I don't think you have any idea about what the "average" is.
Fine. Lemme know when you meet one.
I wasn't claiming that I knew. If you go back and look at my post, I said
exactly that. You were the one who expressed shock at what the "average
US citizen" pays for training, implying that you knew what that number was.
[snip]
Hm. Let's see. Space is worth $15 an hour. That's, uh... 11 or 12
hours a week, say 11 (I'm not sure about the length of juniors classes).
Hmmmm.... 11x15=$165...x4 months=$660, which is about US$390, I fink.
We get the space at slightly less than it should be. I checked the
roster. We actually have about 50 paid members, including juniors. Hm.
25x12+25x3=$375... $390-$375=US$15 per month. That looks about right -
replacement bags every so often. We bought the dojo a barbie recently,
for social occasions, which we're still paying off... ;)
Your sensei is paying a LOT less than he would be paying here for similar
space. 'nuff said.
[snip]
> are paying no more than you are, or perhaps less, for memberships in
> university clubs. Many of them have opportunities to train with very
> fine teachers for a very small fee.
I wasn't including varsity clubs - down here, they're ridiculously
cheap. Our style even offers one for $60 per year (which we give to the
Uni, I believe, so they buy the bags... I fink ;), which allows the Uni
students to train at our main dojo, plus two other 2 hour sessions at
the Uni itself.
Why not include them? They're the way a lot of people get their training.
[snip]
> But you should realize that your school has an advantage that others
> of its type don't often share; that is, relatively high membership.
Well, we are trying to build it even more. However, there are bigger
ones (I know of a South Island Judo club that has over 150 paid senior
members, I think), and smaller ones with less cost (I belonged to a
Hapkido dojang that charged $15 [US$8] a month, with about 8 members,
and an Aikido dojo, with about 15 members, at $10 [US$6] per month).
The way that small clubs survive is to be in accessable locations (ie,
schools) and get the space cheaper.
Again, even the cheapest space around here isn't what you would call cheap.
Larger school like ourselves get a
better space for about the same, as we naturally attract more members
for the flashy club... ;) [It's a central city location, so people can
go right after work].
Hmm...would you care to guess about what a dojo-like space would cost
you to rent in downtown Boston, or midtown Manhattan? Location IS
important to getting students, but you pay for it.
It's a different situation over here. When you find that people in
another place do things differently, there's frequently a reason for
it. Simple economic reality has a lot to do with who teaches MA
in the States, and how they teach.
Eric Westreich
>In article <3774...@otter.hpl.hp.com> b...@otter.hpl.hp.com (Brenda Romans) writes:
>>I too was surprised at the way martial arts are taught in the USA.
> A lot of stuff that goes in the USA suprises me too. :->
>[SNIP]
>
>>How exactly do the operations in the USA work?
> There are no standards. When I've been charged money, it's been from $4
>a month to $60 a month. I've also found people who require no payment other
>than a good attitude (and sweeping the mats).
> It's a big country and you find all types.
>
My wife and I were selling items at a Bargain Fair. People were asking
what the price of some of the shirts were (still in good condition...I just have
a bigger neck now). When we said, 25 or 50 cents, people threw the shirts back
in disgust. When we charged several dollars, they bought the shirts...after
talking us down 25 to 50 cents.
Similarly, I've found that when I don't charge for martial arts lessons, many
people are unmotivated about attending class. For some reason, most people
seem to take things for granted unless they pay for them. When my instructor
raised his association membership fee, his membership drastically rose. Maybe
this is a USA cultural thing, but I would guess that it's more widespread than
that.
I don't think that I will teach for free again! I don't need to charge a fortune
but I find that if you charge at least something, that it weeds out some of the
less motivated students. If you are teaching a McDojo, then you want to take
everybody. On my scale, I'd rather have a few dedicated students.
This year, I spent every cent that I made on training equipment for my classes,
dojo rent and on lessons from my martial arts instuctor anyway.
--
-Eric Westreich Jeet Kune Do
west...@oc.nps.navy.mil KC6IMI
$tephen Northcutt
When we said, 25 or 50 cents, people threw the shirts back
in disgust. When we charged several dollars, they bought the shirts
Similarly, I've found that when I don't charge for martial arts
lessons, many people are unmotivated about attending class.
For some reason, most people seem to take things for granted
unless they pay for them.
See that!!!! I told you guys! More proof!
The more you pay the more you learn!
Not Meik Do indeed! One more crack like that Mary and I'll
splinter off and start my own federation.
>I don't think that I will teach for free again!
Preach it!
Stephen Northcutt, Chief Instructor, MoDo's Tae Kwon Do
Richard Parry
> So out of a country as big as the States you make a general
> statemate from 'statistics' gained from two cities??
Yup. Two big cities, and it's all I had to go on. Funnily enough, one
of the reasons of posting on usenet was to get a better idea.
> Compare the statistics against all martial arts training in the
> States and you will probably find a different story. The same goes
> in the New Zealand clubs I've had involvment with...Some make a
> profit and some don't.
Good, make generalisation comments like that - how about some examples?
> Remember that New Zealand does have a smaller population. It doesn't
> have the number of martial artists to support large commercial
> operations, hence the lower number of nationwide commercial dojos.
Sure, but a smaller population also would lead to a smaller overall
number of martial arts. Everything should stay in proportion, which it
doesn't seem to have.
> There are some clubs here who operate on a break even basis and
> there are some who operate at a profit. It doesn't really matter as
> long as the instruction being given is good, and the students are
> gaining from it.
Fair enough, but some examples would be nice.
Richard Parry
> In a wiseass mood again...? 8-)
> Perenially ;-)
8-) Good, good - I love debates... Let the games BEGIN!
> Think you mean "sensei"?
Sorry, force of habit in my style. Sempai is the term given to anyone
of higher grade to you, out of respect, which means Senior Grade, to be
obeyed without question in the dojo. Sensei is the title we give to
those at 3rd dan or higher, which simply means teacher. Hence the
difference... so shodans and nidans are not sensei, only sempai.
> Well...but consider also that the commercial schools are the easiest to
> find -- they put a lot of energy into making sure that you know about
> them -- and the "garage dojos" are a lot harder to find. So I do think
> your sample is skewed.
Ahh, right. Fair enough.
> Mind you, I have no idea what the actual numbers are. I don't think
> anybody does, really.
Perhaps we could do a survey? Mind you, this thread seems to be doing
that... ;-)
> True enough...I agree with you that it does seem pretty silly to have a
> completely new uniform. Someone's making some bucks on that, you can bet.
Yup. I wonder... say, uh, charge $90 for it (US$50ish) - you'd make a
bit. Throw people up through the grades, and there's your income... ;)
> > Body Alive? What's that?
> Never heard of it. What does it have to do with MA?
Ah. It's the "new" style of MA training wear. You're supposed to wear
it in your dojo, instead of a gi. Such is life. It looks really
yuppie, and if you were an instructor of a McDojo, perfect.
> I pay about $48 a month at one school (unlimited training time etc.) and
> $65 a month at another. I'm sure both are too much by your standards.
> Personally, I can afford it and I think they're worth it.
^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^
That's the important part. If you think that they're worth it, then
they are, to you - so no problem. It's the people out there who go to a
McDojo with no idea at all, and who end up getting ripped off... $48
(NZ$100, I'd guess) aint to bad for a full time dojo. What styles are
these?
> Your sensei is paying a LOT less than he would be paying here for similar
> space. 'nuff said.
Yup. Space is cheaper over here, and in less demand, but such is life.
Mind you, other stuff in the States is a *lot* cheaper (appliances,
cars, etc), so it all balances out in the end.
> Hmm...would you care to guess about what a dojo-like space would cost
> you to rent in downtown Boston, or midtown Manhattan? Location IS
> important to getting students, but you pay for it.
Sure. Our space is cheap by your standards, but it's in a central city
localtion, so it's more expensive over here...
> It's a different situation over here. When you find that people in
> another place do things differently, there's frequently a reason for
> it. Simple economic reality has a lot to do with who teaches MA
> in the States, and how they teach.
Fair enough. Fair enough indeed!