Hiki Komi Otoshi
JUJITSUKA
) writes:
shi
>>> What's that?
>>One of the techniques one the Kodokan syllabus. :-)
> Do you mean Kodenkan? There's a hiki-otoshi in kishiki-no-kata,
Kishiki-No-Kata? Is that a kata for high Dan rank? I have only heard of the
basic 5 kata's of Danzan Ryu - YAWARA, NAGE NO KATA, SHIME NO KATA, OKU NO KATA
and SHINEN NO MAKI. I know their are more kata's but have never seen a complete
list. Would you post more information on this kata, and any other Danzan
Ryu/Kodenkan kata that you know of?
GArrington
writes:
>Kishiki-No-Kata? Is that a kata for high Dan rank? I have only heard of the
>basic 5 kata's of Danzan Ryu - YAWARA, NAGE NO KATA, SHIME NO KATA, >OKU NO
KATA and SHINEN NO MAKI. I know their are more kata's but have >never seen a
complete list. Would you post more information on this kata, and >any other
Danzan Ryu/Kodenkan kata that you know of?
I believe Koshiki no Kata is one of the katas of Kodokan Judo. The other katas
you mentioned are indeed from Kodenkan Danzan-Ryu Jujitsu. Incidentally, the
correct spelling of the last one is Shinnin no Maki. The translation is
"scroll of the spirit man". I may get some rebuttal on this, but I got this
information from Danzan-Ryu Shihan Sig Kufferath.
George Arrington
Hrz11 acct
Methinks you are taking things out of context, so I hope Warfie
doesn't mind if I answer for him.
The Kodokan (Kano Judo) has a series of Kata and the above references
one of their Kata. The Kata of DZR are not Kata in the traditional
sense of transitioning from one technique to another in a fluid manner.
The Kata of DZR (and they were referred to Kata; ie Nage, Shime & Oku)
had to do with the manner of practice. 1,2,3, execute, followed by
formal recovery.
The Hiki Otoshi I refer to is found in DZR as a varient of one of the
Shinyo arts - Tawara Gaeshi, and is so grouped apparently now by the
Kodokan as depicted in the "Textbook of Judo" already referenced.
Dave Scheid
JUJITSUKA
writes:
::I believe Koshiki no Kata is one of the katas of Kodokan Judo. The other
katas
::you mentioned are indeed from Kodenkan Danzan-Ryu Jujitsu. Incidentally, the
::correct spelling of the last one is Shinnin no Maki. The translation is
::"scroll of the spirit man". I may get some rebuttal on this, but I got this
::information from Danzan-Ryu Shihan Sig Kufferath.
Thank you for the information. I have learned of two more Kodenkan Kata's -
SHINYO NO MAKI (sp?) and KIAI NO MAKI. Are there any others?
Tony J3441
Danzanryu basic lists are : In Shoden(1st principles) Yawara, Nage, Shime,
Yonenbu No Kata
Chden(Intermediate principles) Oku No Kata, Kiai no Maki, Tessen No Maki,
Tanto No Maki, Daito No Maki, Bo No Maki, Tanju No Maki, Fujin Goshin No Maki,
Kesatsu Gijutsu, plus a few other subsidiary courses and Kappo & Seifukujitsu
are started during the chuden.
Okuden (Deep or Advanced level) Shinnin No Maki, Shinyo No Maki
Koden (Orally instructed principles) Shingen No Maki plus a few subsidiary
courses related to those techniques.
The above comprises the Danzanryu courses, the beginning to the end which takes
you right to the beginning Yawara.
Requirements we use for ranking are as follows: For Shodan (1st Black) 5.5
years minimum training complete knowledge of Shoden, Chuden, and Shinin No Maki
from Okuden. If student passes then they have 4.5 years additional study &
training to include assisting Sensei with classes, you cannot teach or organize
your own classes until you attain the nidan (2nd black) rank, also taught
Shinyo No Maki at this time frame and complete reviews of all lists during this
4.5 year period.
If student passes nidan test then he may go out on his own and teach. If
selected he may be taught arts within the Shingen no Maki or some of its
subsidiaries.
This is a readers digest version of how we, Kufferath & Janovich, teach
Jujitsu.
Tony J.
Tony J3441
) writes:
>Dave S.
No matter how it is spelled in english, I have pictures showing boards with
Shinin, Shinnin, Shin Nen, Shinnan, Shin En, Shin In, and others. All are
immaterial. The Japanese for these boards were given to Sig personally by Prof.
Okazaki, as early as 1939-40 and as late as 1946-8. There are some differences
in the original Japanese as Okazaki made minor changes in the "spellings" if
you will over the years being the progressive man he was.
To try and figure the Japanse in its original form from a romanized version is
totally incorrect, there are too many variables. Especially since there were
many ways it was spelleed in english. There are 40% english spelling errors in
the techniques on the boards written in the early days. The boards you do not
normally see, which had the Japanese written either above or to the side were
used by Okazaki when teaching his Japanese students. Even these had some
english transliterations incorrect, but the Japanese was written by Okazaki and
is correct.I have pictures of these too from Sig's albums. He has all the lists
in their original Japanese.
You were not there, Sig was and received these personally from Okazaki. They
also include explanations of the techniques written in Japanese. To say he is
incorrect is an insult directly to Sig. As stated above he was there and you
were not. You can not take spelling errors and make them into something that
was not.
Finally I learned to read, write and speak Japanese from childhood, I have use
for these Japanese writings, since I can read them without running to a
dictionary. Sig grew up speaking Japanese in his household, he spoke to Okazaki
in Japanese, he had use for these notes. Anyone who does not speak, read and
write Japanese should not be concerned with the Japanese other than saying the
name the best they can. Because it is the "teachings" not the words that are
important. Anything to do with this was put out for informational purposes
only, not to bring peoples limited knowledge of Japanese out, it only makes
fools of them. Stick to pertinent information like, arts, techniques, seminars,
instructors, etc.
Tony J.
Hrz11 acct
>Incidentally, the
>correct spelling of the last one is Shinnin no Maki. The translation is
>"scroll of the spirit man". I may get some rebuttal on this, but I got this
>information from Danzan-Ryu Shihan Sig Kufferath.
George, George, George....
The correct spelling is Shin In No Maki - Scroll of the Rhythmic Spirit.
(Shinin No Maki is OK as well.)
If you ask Tony J. he might tell you he has pictures showing the spelling
to be Shinen No Maki as well as Shin En No Maki. The En and In are due
to the romanizations debates which flourshed up to as recently as the
1960's.
And Shin In No Maki is the scroll which prepares one to take the
techniques learned and transform them as well as the individual in
Art - thus martial art.
Dave Scheid
GArrington
>>Incidentally, the
>>correct spelling of the last one is Shinnin no Maki. The translation is
>>"scroll of the spirit man". I may get some rebuttal on this, but I got this
>>information from Danzan-Ryu Shihan Sig Kufferath.
>
>George, George, George....
First of Dave, I've been doing this stuff as long as if not longer than you and
I've done at least as much research on the subject as you. DO NOT address me in
such a condescending manner.
>
>The correct spelling is Shin In No Maki - Scroll of the Rhythmic Spirit.
>(Shinin No Maki is OK as well.)
>
>If you ask Tony J. he might tell you he has pictures showing the spelling
>to be Shinen No Maki as well as Shin En No Maki. The En and In are due
>to the romanizations debates which flourshed up to as recently as the
>1960's.
I have talked to Professor Janovich at great length on this topic (at great
personal financial expense, I might add.) I do not easily agree to oral
history without a lot of evidence and I am thoroughly convinced that Professor
Kufferath is the "real deal". I suggest that you take your own advice, empty
YOUR cup and visit Campbell dojo yourself. You might learn something.
Incidentally, why weren't you at the Okugi last summer.
George Arrington
Hrz11 acct
As readers to this thread can see, there is some disagreement
among DZR practioners..... :-)
Yawara - ref Nelson"s Kanji # 3166 - Ju; yawa(ra), jujutsu. It's the
there.
Let's see... DZR Yawara, 20 arts. Ladies Yawara, Yawara Stick,
Police Yawara.....
Dave Scheid
Dave Sheehy
: There are some differences
: in the original Japanese as Okazaki made minor changes in the "spellings" if
: you will over the years being the progressive man he was.
I have heard that Okazaki was illiterate or nearly so and that his sister (or
some other relative) actually penned all the scrolls. Have you any idea if this
is true or not?
Dave Sheehy
Hrz11 acct
I will make but this one public reply.
The course of Danzan Ryu is as outlined in a previous post by
DRZ Prof. T. Janovitch.
However, we disagree on a few points.
Shin In No Maki - 1st of the Dan lists; Scroll of the Rhythmic Spirit.
This is from the oral instruction of other students who were
personal protegees of Prof. Okazaki.
Shin Yo No Maki - Scroll of the Yang Spirit; concludes the official
course instruction of DZR.
Shin Jin No Maki - Scroll of the Spirit Man; it is outside the official
course of instruction and embodies the Spirit Man concept of
Mencius, but principally the Superior Man of Confucius.
Any such debate about "being there" will be irrelevant when the last
students pass away, since the teachings and testimony of those who have
already passed on are now being ignored.
Dave Scheid
Hrz11 acct
>Dave Sheehy
I will provide what I know. I believe you are referencing the graduate
diplomas, called Mokuroku. Prof. Okazaki was quite literate - in
Japanese. He was not fluent in english. His daughters (the name of the
eldest I've forgotten) and Ester penned the Mokuroku.
This was their penmanship assignment from their Papa, so they could
practice their Kanji writing.
Ancedotally, some of the differences in the Mokuroku came about because
the girls could not produce them quickly enough. Ester, being younger and
more deliberate asked for some relief. So, Prof. Okazaki told here to omit
this, that and the other, so he could promote a small group together.
The students received their scrolls, but depending on the urgency, the
contents would be lesser or greater. Also, sometimes things were transcribed
out of order, ie; a list of the basic course placed in the intermediate level.
If the omission was discovered too late, it got added but not in proper
sequence because that was easier that correcting, which in effect was to
begin from a much earlier sheet.
A lot of work went into the Mokuroku and young girls often had their
minds on other things.... playing, being with the friends, ....
Dave Scheid
P.S. I wasn't there. It's just hearsay. :-)
Actually, a story told by Ester to my teacher - Prof. Kitty Smith.
GArrington
) writes:
>Shin In No Maki - 1st of the Dan lists; Scroll of the Rhythmic Spirit.
> This is from the oral instruction of other students who were
> personal protegees of Prof. Okazaki.
No, This was originally Shin Nan no Maki, translated as "Spirit Man Scroll".
Professor Okazaki changed the "Nan" which means male person to "Nin" which is
not sex specific. This "Nin" is the same character you erroneously use in "Shin
Jin no Maki".
>Shin Yo No Maki - Scroll of the Yang Spirit; concludes the official
> course instruction of DZR.
Correct.
>Shin Jin No Maki - Scroll of the Spirit Man; it is outside the official
> course of instruction and embodies the Spirit Man concept of
> Mencius, but principally the Superior Man of Confucius.
No. This course is called "Shin Gen no Maki", which translates to "original
spirit scroll". As to your Confucian references, I believe Okazaki was Shinto
and such concepts were not inherent to his faith. I feel that these notions
has risen from some other source.
To the non-Danzan-Ryu readers, this course is only taught to select students by
the head of the system. The current recognized (AJI, JA, AJJF) Shihan is
Professor Sig Kufferath. I have had the great fortune to be able to briefly
study with him.
>Any such debate about "being there" will be irrelevant when the last
>students pass away, since the teachings and testimony of those who have
>already passed on are now being ignored.
>
>Dave Scheid
This statement is logically flawed. Sig was there and has faithfully and
accurately transmitted the Okazaki tradition to many students. When all the
Okazaki students are gone, the Okazaki tradition will live on through these
students. Some other students who studied with Okazaki have modified his
teachings and thus polluted that tradition. Unfortunately, Bud Estes, one
founder of the American Judo and Jujitsu Federation (AJJF), was one Okazaki
student who did that. Due to his limited exposure (only 3.5 years) to Okazaki,
Estes necessarily extrapolated from what he remembered to form his own Jujitsu
system. The physical disability of his right arm also made it necessary for him
to modify the techniques and thus his students never saw some of the Okazaki
arts. It is important that people, especially Danzan-Ryu people understand
this. It took me many years to find this information, because (understandibly)
it was not well publicized by the AJJF hierarchy.
George Arrington
Tony J3441
>Dave
As I said to you before these students of which you speak were not Japanese and
did not speak with Okazaki in Japanese nor did they receive any Japanese notes
directly from Okazaki as Sig did. It is a moot point since these notes were
given directly to Sig personally from Okazaki. Also there were sets of "boards"
in the dojo written in english and had the Japanese written above or next to
the English. These were used for Okazaki's Japanese students so they could see
the original Japanese. Bud Estes, Richard Rickerts, Juan Gomes, and others were
not taught with the Japanese included because they did not speak Japanese. They
simply had the English transliterations listed on boards or on paper. Okazaki
had a fair command of English, his main language was Japanese, he spoke in
broken English and was not as articulate in English as he was in Japanese.
Your readings are incorrect and the original notes from Okazaki verify this.
But even in Japanese proper names are subject to subjective input from the
reader, but it does not change the original Japanese unless the writer of it
changes it to mean something else.
For instance Bud estes was a Christian, Okazaki followed Shinto. Bud did not
teach Shinto to his students, he put it into his own terms and taught it. Just
like Bud did not speak about Okazaki's two wives, because this was contrary to
his beliefs. Upon BB graduation Okazaki had a Shinto BB graduation ceremony, I
do not think Bud did that.
So you see it is each persons interpretation of the teaching according to your
own beliefs and experience. Bud was a great man but he did things his way and
achieved great things. But the facts are still facts and the names are as
indicated on Okazaki's original notes.
Tony J.
GArrington
) writes:
>Let's see... DZR Yawara, 20 arts. Ladies Yawara, Yawara Stick,
>Police Yawara.....
I believe the term "Ladies Yawara" is something of a misnomer. Okazaki
actually called this course Fujin Goshin no Maki, or Women's Self-Defense
Scroll. The term "Ladies Yawara" came from someone else.
Likewise, "Police Yawara" was actually called Keisatsu Gijutsu by Okazaki and
consisted of 120 techniques. Were techniques from the Yawara course included in
the specialized courses? Of course they were, but their purpose was intended to
get select groups of people up to speed quickly in these techniques. Okazaki
had a number of such courses for special purposes.
George Arrington
Tony J3441
) writes:
>Dave
Once again this is incorrect, Esther could only write basic hiragana and
katagana. The eldest step-daughter, Kay, could, but did not. That story is
completely false and just verified by telephone with Okazaki's eldest daughter
not 5 minutes from the writing of this response. in fact she said correct this,
those were written by one of her father's good friends, who also wrote other
things for Okazaki and took care of his many large makimono also.
You see what I mean about the quantity of misinformation floating around, the
name of the fellow I am with holding so as not to begin on another tangent.
Sig spent a lot of time with Okazaki and his familiy, Okazaki went fishing
regularly with Sig's brother-in-law Sonny. He also attended family functions at
the Kufferath's Ewa beach house. Sig told me many years ago who wrote the
scrolls, but it was not that important then. Just information passed on.
Tony J.
GArrington
) writes:
>I once posted that I believed the fellow who helped develop the
>course was Charles Wagner, an early Jujutsu pioneering student
>of Okazaki's and one of Okazaki's senior teaching students. (Also,
>1st president of the American Jujitsu Guild.) I believe he was an
>Army Air Force MP.
>
>He was killed (I believe) at the bombing of Hickman Field, during
>the attack on Pearl Harbor.
I have asked a number of old timers about this incident since you originally
posted it. They seem to think this is in error since he evidently voted for
Sig Kufferath as the succeeding Professor after Okazaki's death. This event
was notable since Charlie was Sig's original instructor and obviously his
senior.
>He was instrumental in getting Okazaki Jujutsu accepted as course material for
>Army/Navy MPs/SPs, else there never would have been such a course
>requirement. (It also helped build Prof. Okazaki's class attendance as well as
>participation in the numerous satellite schools.)
>
>I don't know his involvment with the early Army Field Manuals, which
>demonstrated Prof. Okazaki's influence even further. This influence
>was brought about through his senior students who were in the military.
You should ask Sig about this. I believe he had a hand in this work, too.
Perhaps, Tony can fill us in on those details.
>Anyhow, I'm certain he called it Police Yawara.
Again, the original title was Keisatsu Gijutsu.
George Arrington
Hrz11 acct
>Likewise, "Police Yawara" was actually called Keisatsu Gijutsu by Okazaki and
>consisted of 120 techniques.
I once posted that I believed the fellow who helped develop the
course was Charles Wagner, an early Jujutsu pioneering student
of Okazaki's and one of Okazaki's senior teaching students. (Also,
1st president of the American Jujitsu Guild.) I believe he was an
Army Air Force MP.
He was killed (I believe) at the bombing of Hickman Field, during
the attack on Pearl Harbor. He was instrumental in getting
Okazaki Jujutsu accepted as course material for Army/Navy MPs/SPs,
else there never would have been such a course requirement. (It also
helped build Prof. Okazaki's class attendance as well as participation
in the numerous satellite schools.)
I don't know his involvment with the early Army Field Manuals, which
demonstrated Prof. Okazaki's influence even further. This influence
was brought about through his senior students who were in the military.
Anyhow, I'm certain he called it Police Yawara. After all, Prof. Okazaki
was attempting to reach out to peoples of all races, so much was
given in english. This is the same approach later followed by Prof. Law
and today, we don't see any Japanese in the book "Small Circle Jujutsu".
There are precedents for the use of mixed terminology, going back a
long way. This is how the other courses developed their mixed terminology,
but the trail is clear. For this reason, many of the copies are in english,
not Japanese without a change to content.
Dave Scheid
Hrz11 acct
>In article <2r0gil$7...@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, hr...@hr11.EBay.Sun.COM (Hrz11 acct
>) writes:
>>Dave
>Once again this is incorrect, That story is
>completely false and just verified by telephone with Okazaki's eldest daughter
>not 5 minutes from the writing of this response. in fact she said correct this,
>those were written by one of her father's good friends, who also wrote other
>things for Okazaki and took care of his many large makimono also.
Tks for the correction. It is one of a few stories I have known for 30 years.
Dave
Hrz11 acct
For the "what it's worth department"...
Prof. Estes met Okazaki around Sept 1932. He left Hawaii in Dec. 1939.
That is a little over 7 years. He arrived in Hawaii around 1930.
I'll stand by the spellings and interpretations of the lists
as these meanings were provided by the founders (note plural) of
the AJJF.
Confucian texts are part of basic reading in much the same way
we read Huck Finn (or used to read portions of the Bible in school).
An amazing argument to say because one was Shinto (he was also Buddhist
and baptized a Methodist), that he would not be influenced by Lao Tzu
or Confucious or Mencius, just amazing.
Dave Scheid
GArrington
) writes:
>Prof. Estes met Okazaki around Sept 1932. He left Hawaii in Dec. 1939.
>That is a little over 7 years. He arrived in Hawaii around 1930.
What documented evidence is there for this meeting?
> I'll stand by the spellings and interpretations of the lists
> as these meanings were provided by the founders (note plural) of
> the AJJF.
You should read the Japanese scrolls. They say differently.
> Confucian texts are part of basic reading in much the same way
> we read Huck Finn (or used to read portions of the Bible in school).
The above statement is very general and in no way gives credence to your
earlier assertion about Okazaki (a Japanese man who followed Shintoism) using
Confucian concepts.
> An amazing argument to say because one was Shinto (he was also Buddhist
> and baptized a Methodist), that he would not be influenced by Lao Tzu
> or Confucious or Mencius, just amazing.
I have asked some "old-timers" about Okazaki being Buddhist and they say he
wasn't; rather that he was Shinto as I said before. I also believe he was
converted to Catholicism rather than Methodism in his latter days.
George Arrington
D...@brownvm.brown.edu
Dave B.
Hrz11 acct
>In article <2r8791$7...@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, hr...@hr11.EBay.Sun.COM (Hrz11 acct
>) writes:
>>Prof. Estes met Okazaki around Sept 1932. He left Hawaii in Dec. 1939.
>>That is a little over 7 years. He arrived in Hawaii around 1930.
>What documented evidence is there for this meeting?
Well, this is *Not* hearsay. I asked and he told me. I should think
he knew what year he met and began studing with Okazaki.
Apparently, I may be one of the few he told. He told most that he
spent 9 yrs in Hawaii, so they have concluded he spent 9 yrs with
Okazaki. He said he was with Okazaki for a little over 7 yrs and he
he figured it was around Sept, because it came at the end of the
rainy season. It just took a little asking.
Your ref to 3.5 yrs may be when he began the special instruction that
is often talked about. Okazaki started that probably around 1936 and graduated
1st one group of 6 thru 4th and ShinJin (Dec 1938) and then the 2nd
group sporadically throughout 1939.
Dave
Tony J3441
) writes:
>Dave,
Bud Estes arrived in Hawaii 7/03/31, not 1930. He was assigned as assisitant at
the Honolulu Boys Home, a Salvation Army facility. On 5/10/32 he took a 21 day
furlough. He was transfered 12/06/32 to Waimea facility as commanding officer.
On 2/12/33 he was transfered to Ewa Mills facility as C.O.. On 3/27/33 he
married Arlene Hartman. On 9/14/94 he was transfered to the island of
Kauai(think about this one). Where he stayed for over one year. At which time I
will not continue, though he did have 2 children there Arlene Aloha born
4/02/34 and Merlin K. born 7/20/35.
According to his own history of the time he met Okazaki and the circumstances
of what was happening in his life, does not coincide with the dates you have
given. I have Bud's complete record of work dates, marriage, divorce, etc. All
official documents from my extensive research into him and others of jujitsu
background w/ Okazaki. They just do not verify the current history told about
Bud Estes and Okazaki.
Bud was a good man and accomplished a lot for Jujitsu, but once again facts are
facts and they just do not collaborate the current story of Bud Estes. Everyone
says he arrived in Hawaii in 1930. Well in 1930 he was still in Salvation Army
training center. Which he graduated 6/01/31 and given captain rank, at which
time he took a 21 day furlough 6/08/31 before being Assigned to Hon. Boys Home.
I also have a picture of his arrival in Honolulu being greeted by Major John
Jones of S. Army. taken on 7/03/31.
Research does not get more extensive than mine, I approach it on a regular
research basis, and on my 11 years as a policeman. I dig everywhere and get
official docs. whenever possible, like marriage, death,divorce certificates,
official work records etc. Manifests of ship arrivals and so on.
This of course does not include personal interviews, which are also accounted
for and checked for verification.
Later,
Tony J.
Later
Tony J3441
>Ray,
That is a good idea for some of this, but if misinformation is given and then
not corrected on the same line, then people do not have the correct
information. This is a dis-service. As long as facts are being sorted out and
verified, etc. I think it is OK to do it on line. If it is personal than it
should be done E-Mail. I think each of us can learn something from these
discussions, I have. nothing is personal just sorting out the fact and fiction.
Everyday I look for new information.
Thanks,
Tony J.
Ray Terry
I fully realize that this is probably a "nobody can really know" type question,
but... How close is the DZR created by Prof. Okazaki to the DZR currently
taught _today_ by Sig, Tony, Rich, Dave, George, etc.?
Techniques often change, mature, improve, get lost over the years. Just curious
as to how Sig et al have changed the art through their involvement.
There is no hidden agenda in this question. Just curious.
Tony J3441
Ray,
Sig and I teach the DZR following the format of the boards, along with other
things, techniques have been updated to reflect changing times and peoples
knowledge. Okazaki was updating his art frequently. If he found something that
worked better he used it.
We also teach things that were used in the original ways, just to show how it
was done in the old days, say 1930's & 40's. We tell the students this is not
the best to use but is an old style. Some arts are taught just about the same
as they were as they are as applicable today as they were then.
Looking at it as a whole we must change, not stand still, you should learn
something new or different, be eclectic, Okazaki was, Sig is and so am I. You
can never know enough.
Regards,
Tony J.
GArrington
> I fully realize that this is probably a "nobody can really know" type
question,
> but... How close is the DZR created by Prof. Okazaki to the DZR currently
> taught _today_ by Sig, Tony, Rich, Dave, George, etc.?
Well, I guess that's what I've been trying to find out for the past few years.
I was taught a set of jujitsu techniques in the 1970's (some from very high
ranking black belts) that were labeled as Kodenkan Danzan-Ryu and coming from
H.S. Okazaki of Hawaii. I have since learned that many of those "original"
techniques were merely variations.
The closest I can tell is that since Sig is the most senior Okazaki student, he
has the most reliable picture of what Okazaki taught. I also feel that since
Tony has studied with Sig for over 30 years, he has been able to capture many
of the things that might fade with age. In this, I feel that all Danzan-Ryu
students, who are interested in the authenticity of their art, should open
their minds and seek out Sig and Tony. I did this last summer and I found two
dedicated instructors who are very open and free with their knowledge.
I should also make this general comment about Danzan-Ryu curricula that I have
observed. Many teachers and students (myself included) were brought up
learning the stuff handed down through Estes, Law or some other Okazaki
"short-timer". I think many of these individuals (again myself included) have
gone forth blindly practicing and teaching this stuff, most of which is valid
and combat effective. However, I was extremely embarassed to demonstrate some
of this to Sig Kufferath and have him explain that it didn't come from Okazaki
as I had thought. I experienced a somewhat painful paradigm shift and had to
sort of "start over" after 20+ years of practice. I realize others may not be
willing to do this. To those, I would suggest that they change the name of
their art to Estes-Ryu, Law-Ryu or some other appropriate moniker.
As to Ray's earlier comment about the damage to Danzan-Ryu's image, I
unfortunately have to agree. However, I believe it is also important that the
misrepresentations that have recently been made about Okazaki and Danzan-Ryu
are equally aggrievous.
George Arrington
Dakin Burdick
>Hey guys...
>
>With -all- due respect, this doesn't reflect well on DZR. Why not resolve it
>off-line via e-mail?
PLEASE DON'T! I'm sitting here logging all this stuff and learning a
ton about Danzan-ryu. Please don't take one of the few interesting
threads left off the net!
Dakin
burd...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
PS: What were you thinking Ray? This is infinitely better than
those TKD threads.
Tony J3441
(Dakin Burdick) writes:
PLEASE DON'T! I'm sitting here logging all this stuff and learning a
ton about Danzan-ryu. Please don't take one of the few interesting
threads left off the net!
Dakin
burd...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
>Dakin,
I am glad to see someone doing that, I would imagine there are others who are
doing the same. I am learning too, and if anyone has questions re: DZR they
should ask them on line.
This is a good forum to get some facts on DZR. It can bring out things so they
can be verified or shown to be incorrect. Believe me there is a myriad of
misinformation out there.
Regards,
Tony J.
Tony J3441
) writes:
>Dave,
According to AJJF people, Bud's long time students, both verbally and in
written form the following is said. Written quote " While Bud was in the
hospital recovering from that injury ( reinjury of his wrist) his first wife
filed for divorce. Because of Sal. Army's strict practices, Bud was forced to
leave his post. All of this was extremely hard on him and put him in a very bad
mental state. About this time, Bud met Master Okazaki, who really went to work
on him." and there is more .
According to this than that incident(Meeting Okazaki) would have had to take
place around 10/15/36 when he was dismissed according to his official
Salvation Army work record. So the time frames would be much shorter here. So
the conclusion would be that he spent maybe 3.5 years w/ Okazaki. This also
works out with his marriage and divorce certificates. So there is a
discreopency in his history w/ Okazaki.
Regards,
Tony J.
Hrz11 acct
>In article <2r8gkq$7...@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, hr...@hr11.EBay.Sun.COM (Hrz11 acct
>) writes:
>
>>Dave,
>Bud Estes arrived in Hawaii 7/03/31, not 1930. He was assigned as assisitant at
>the Honolulu Boys Home, a Salvation Army facility. On 5/10/32 he took a 21 day
>furlough. He was transfered 12/06/32 to Waimea facility as commanding officer.
>On 2/12/33 he was transfered to Ewa Mills facility as C.O.. On 3/27/33 he
>married Arlene Hartman. On 9/14/34 he was transfered to the island of
>Kauai(think about this one). Where he stayed for over one year. At which time I
>will not continue, though he did have 2 children there Arlene Aloha born
>4/02/34 and Merlin K. born 7/20/35.
I never was interested in How Long he was in Hawaii. 9 yrs - so what.
What he said is as I posted, he figured around Sept. 1932. This was
after 35 years. Since he was married and without children, according
to your dates the incident would have been 1933. 1 yr difference. And
one year later he was transferred, which again is in conformity in that
he indicated he was making good progress when he was transferred.
It is no secret he was on another island for just over a year. He said
he met Okazaki prior to going to the other island. And he returned
several times during that period for "business reasons (if you will)"
visiting Okazaki whenever possible and continuing his relationship
(and who knows - maybe to just get away).
So, I don't see a problem with what was said - one year off. Not too
bad after 35+ yrs. I just wish I could be that accurate.
But the detail you have added is greatly appreciated. It helps to fill
in lots of holes, since as has been indicated, he would not speak of
certain things because of his beliefs.
So, again, tks for the detail.
Dave Scheid
Ray Terry
> PS: What were you thinking Ray?
Of not dishonoring DZR by airing a heated public disagreement among the
highest ranking DZR practitioners the country. If they don't feel there
is a problem, then I suspect that my concern was unwarranted.
Hrz11 acct
>I fully realize that this is probably a "nobody can really know" type question,
>but... How close is the DZR created by Prof. Okazaki to the DZR currently
>taught _today_ by Sig, Tony, Rich, Dave, George, etc.?
>There is no hidden agenda in this question. Just curious.
Well, speaking for myself.....
My instructors were taught by Norm Nelson, Takamoto's senior student.
Takamoto (Okazaki's son-in-law) was at first a Judo man. So many
of the throws I was taught were Kodokan. Later, I learned from
Law's students that ie; Harai Goshi was different, sweeping back
against the ankle.
The Yawara was basically what Prof. Law taught. The Yubi Tori variations
taught by Prof. Jay were taught by Prof. Estes, but not much by
Prof. Law.
Some key differences I have noted are that striking techniques
were more prevalant. Estes restricted their employment. Another key
difference is that I was taught many arts had a beginning, intermediate
and advanced version (save those which were already somewhat final).
For instance, a throw would be Kata form, 1,2,3, execute and recover.
This was the basic, or it could be enter, pivot, throw. Intermediate
would be to remove a step, such as throwing on the pivot or while
moving about. Advanced versions would be simulating attack, each
person a short distance apart. This would be for learning to apply
each art against an attacker *before* engagement. As one advanced
in rank, they were expected to be able to demonstrate the technique/skill
for that rank. In other words, BB would not do white belt arts only
better. They would practice and be able to demonstrate skill at a
mock combat level.
Some of this has been kept in the way Kata Contests are now organized,
WRT form, basic attack, and formalized combative sequence. All the
ideas of beginning, intermediate and advanced are there and demonstrated.
Another slight difference is that Prof. Estes taught many strangles
with one knee down rather than a sitting position where the weight
is better distributed. Prof. Estes also had a BB in Judo and I feel
that he was influenced by his early Judo training as evidenced in
several areas.
Prof. Estes taught that Uke should help throw him/herself, thus making
the fall lighter. We were taught and practiced a harsher style, where
getting off the mat got to be slower and slower with each fall.
I've since come to appreciate the wisdom of taking lighter falls and
being able to continue practicing vs. being exhausted after about 20
minutes.
Are there other differences. Sure. What some teach as a "variation"
was mainstream elsewhere. Some do not know various variations because
their instructors weren't interested in *that one*. Each one has favorites
and some just don't seem interesting. This is common to everyone.
All in all, I don't think there is a great difference between most DZR
schools including those descended from Prof. Estes once the softer style
is accounted for and certain technical adjustments made and the strikes
added back in. Ask any of Prof. Law's senior students if they did lots
of strikes - wait, I know them all...Yep, once upon a time.
Prof. Estes was adament about teaching strikes. So the AJJF doesn't
do much anymore in that line. But, that takes the answer too far away
from your question.
Regards,
Dave Scheid
Hrz11 acct
>
>I fully realize that this is probably a "nobody can really know" type question,
>but... How close is the DZR created by Prof. Okazaki to the DZR currently
>taught _today_ by Sig, Tony, Rich, Dave, George, etc.?
An additional follow-up.
There are many who insist that "original techniques" be taught and
be preserved. What is often overlooked (and I have posted about this
in the past) is that each instructor eventually gets to the point where
they imbue their teaching with their own personality.
Thus, the technique has their stamp on it, no one else's. This is
why IMO there are only caretakers. One DZR practioner has written
that people should call their style Law-Ryu, Estes-Ryu, etc., overlooking
this is true for himself and everyone, if they have matured in *their*
art to the point where it is *theirs*.
This is why what we do is called a martial Art. An artist who paints a
picture does not sign the name of his teacher or school on his painting.
He signs his own name. It is his Art. The techniques for creating this
art were provided by his teachers and school. But what he does is his.
So a system, such as DZR, is a vehicle for instruction. Too many put
too much emphasis on a change to this or that one technique and overlook
the *teaching* which is given with the instruction.
I have often referred to DZR as Okazaki Judo. Judo, is in my mind a
philosophy concerned with resolving conflict in a harmonious manner.
The vehicle I use to teach this is Jujutsu or the syllabus of DZR.
(I once posted and article called "The Real Meaning of Judo". Since this
is a temp account, it is not available. Anyone who may have it can
freely repost it.)
So, back to the original question. If one used a broad paintbrush, one
might find a lot of things common or a small paintbrush, a lot of
differences. Were I a beginner or young BB, I would say, Gee, these
techniques are different. They aren't what I was taught.
I would not yet know that the real lessons had yet to be learned and that
I had been provided just a set of tools to learn them, at such a point.
And, I may never get beyond the point of understanding that the true
practice of *ANY* MA lay in the spirit one puts into their practice.
This is the key distinction between practioner and artist. A practioner
strives to excell at technique, an artist strives to take techniques and
create something artistic.
These are some of the greatest lessons of DZR which I have preserved.
Regards,
Dave Scheid
Hrz11 acct
Well, I can see how you derive your time line. I have found that many
of Prof. Estes close personal students did not "talk" to him. They
didn't ask him things but took bits and pieces of things he said
and strung them together.
I asked, and asked and asked. I was interested in the history (interesting
word, from "his story"). Over the years, I have been surprised at how
little some asked. Oh, they may say they did. But, with Prof. Estes,
(as I find true with myself now), it was not easy to recall an exact time
or occasion after numerous years. So I would ask and then in a few weeks
call Kitty or again visit Chico and speak with Prof. Estes. If one (as
some have) insisted on an immediate response, he would often turn away.
So, what I have reported is what he told me. He said he recalled knowing
Okazaki a little over 7 years (ok, 6 - big difference is between 3 and 7).
He was married, it was towards the end of the rainy season and had been
raining continually for some days. The weather broke and he finally got
a chance to go outside for a walk when after a while he saw two guys
mugging a third.
There were no children. He began his studies only to have them interupted
for a little over a year when he moved to another island. He visited
Okazaki periodically during that time, continuing his relationship.
His story fits in line with your dates, but one year off.
I have personal observations of this conversation because Prof. Estes
seemed to be recalling a difficult time in his life, before such
incidents as you have reported.
Regards,
Dave Scheid
JUJITSUKA
others and have not got a good response.
When Jigoro Kano created the kata for Judo, he bassed his selection
of techniques on his philosphy of 'Minimum Effort, Maximum
Efficiency'. I know that Professor Okazaki had *Thousands* of
techniques to choose from in creating his style, but what were the
principles on which he based his selections?
Tony J3441
(JUJITSUKA) writes:
When Jigoro Kano created the kata for Judo, he bassed his selection
of techniques on his philosphy of 'Minimum Effort, Maximum
Efficiency'. I know that Professor Okazaki had *Thousands* of
techniques to choose from in creating his style, but what were the
principles on which he based his selections?
> Okazaki's main principle for his art was the perfection of
character, the philosophy you speak of from Jigoro Kano is not as
simple as the English ME, ME as stated above.
Okazaki felt he developed the most comprehensive system of Jujitsu to
date. His art was a combat style first, he combined several arts into
his own. He kept changing as time went on, if he found something
better he used. He was very eclectic. He still based a lot of the
techniques on the principles of "Yawara", yielding, thus giving you
an advantage even if physically weaker. He also taught to attack at
the weakest points of your opponent. In a broader sense of the
meaning of Jigoro Kanos maxum they were very close.
Of course there is a lot more to his DZR but this is not the forum. I
hope some of this helped.
Regards,
Tony J.
Hrz11 acct
>Here is another Danzan Ryu Question. This is a question I have asked
>others and have not got a good response.
> I know that Professor Okazaki had *Thousands* of
>techniques to choose from in creating his style, but what were the
>principles on which he based his selections?
I agree with Tony J. that Character is the principle precept
for the practice and training in DZR. He wrote, "Sincerity
is the foundation of all virtues."
For those interested one should read Li Fu Chen's "The Confucian
Classics". He takes the works of Mencius and Confucius and sorts
them by topic in a very readable and comparative manner.
So the answer to principle is different than the one asked.
Technically, he selected those that worked, at least for a lot
of people. There are some that don't work for me. I can't make
them effective against someone much larger. (I suspect these are
the Hawaiian Lua arts, rather than Oriental arts.) There are
some that work for a smaller person and are less effective for
a larger. There is sufficient diversity that *anyone* could find
a sufficient number of favorites with which to master and protect
themselves, if necessary.
For its time (1930-50s), it was probably one of the most advanced
systems of self-defense available.
Dave Scheid
wharfie
>Of course there is a lot more to his DZR but this is not the forum.
Why not??? I'd *love* to learn more about DZR.
Dean Reimer
taught some clinics for Judo and suppo (sp) in PA in the 1970's that I attended.
I was a 13 year old judoka. He had a large cadre with him who included Prof.
Fischer? I forget the year he died, but I learned a lot from his visits to our
dojo in Portland, PA. I was studying under Dr. Geshner. I even have Prof. Estes
autograph! Anyway, it was interesting seeing a thread following Prof. Estes.
That's all,
Dean
Empathy is Telepathy's cousin............
Tony J3441
writes:
Well what would you like to hear about regarding DZR, I am open to
suggestions. I would try to give you the best answers or comments I
could.
Regards,
Tony J.
Dean Reimer
|> In article <2rgujj$h...@src-news.pa.dec.com>, rei...@src.dec.com (Dean
|> Reimer) writes:
|>
|> > Sorry for jumping in the middle here, but Prof. Estes caught my
|> attention. He
|> taught some clinics for Judo and suppo (sp) in PA in the 1970's that
|> I attended.
|> I was a 13 year old judoka. He had a large cadre with him who
|> included Prof.
|> Fischer?
|>
|> As I remember, Lamar Fisher, Tom Ball and Pat Brown assisted in the
|> instruction. In addition, Prof. Florendo Visitacion did some demo of
|> his Vee-Jitsu. (At that point, he was an AJJF member.)
|>
|> These clinics were very good and I learned a lot. This is where I
|> first learned about the Okazaki massage. Does anyone know what
|> happened to Bill Gessner and the Stroudsburg jujitsu group? I know
|> that some of them are now affiliated with Doug Kiehl's group in
|> central PA.
|>
|> George Arrington
|>
I know Dr. Gesnner lived in Stroudsburg. I've been to his house for his
daughter Vicki's birthday. That was in 1972 or 73. I'd like to know if the
Jujitsu group is still there. I am from Bangor. They use to practice in the
wrestling gym at East Stroudsburg State College. I am now living in California.
I'll have to do some research when I visit my parents. I now study Sholin Kenpo
under Prof. Romero "Jack" Long in Redwood City. I also remember Prof. Visitacion.
He taught me some bo techniques. We did some demos for the College.
Well, live long and prosper.
Dean
Empathy is Telepathy's cousin....................
GArrington
Someone asked a question some time back in this thread about
KoDENkan. The jujitsu system developed by H.S. Okazaki was named
Danzan-Ryu which literally means Sandlewood Mountain School, but
refers to the Hawaiian Islands. The reference is to the many
sandlewood trees that grow on the slopes of the Hawaiian mountains.
Since Okazaki started his school in Hawaii, this name was
appropriate.
The term KODENKAN was the name that Okazaki gave to his dojo.
Literally, this term means "ancient tradition school". I have also
heard this term to mean that the tradition was transmitted from
senior to junior. Anyway, the question is whether to call the Okazaki
jujitsu Danzan-Ryu or Kodenkan. To be correct, one should use the
ryuha name to describe the system and Kodenkan to refer to the dojo.
In practice, however, many people call his system Kodenkan Jujitsu
much in the same way that Kano-Ryu Jujitsu is called Kodokan Judo.
(Incidentally, the KAN in these terms refers to a school building or
hall.) The practice of calling the system Kodenkan, while not
technically correct, is generally accepted.
On another topic, I recently saw an article in the magazine "Fighting
Knives" about a Danzan-Ryu teacher named Michael Esmailzadeh. The
article said he was Yodan in Danzan-Ryu, but spoke mainly about his
swordmanship skills. Does anyone on the net know about him?
Regards,
George Arrington
Ray Terry
With -all- due respect, this doesn't reflect well on DZR. Why not resolve it
off-line via e-mail?
Just my $0.02 worth.
Hrz11 acct
>In article <2r0ro9$7...@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, hr...@hr11.EBay.Sun.COM (Hrz11 acct
>) writes:
>
>>I once posted that I believed the fellow who helped develop the
>>course was Charles Wagner, an early Jujutsu pioneering student
>>He was killed (I believe) at the bombing of Hickman Field, during
>>the attack on Pearl Harbor.
>
>I have asked a number of old timers about this incident since you originally
>posted it. They seem to think this is in error since he evidently voted for
>Sig Kufferath as the succeeding Professor after Okazaki's death. This event
>was notable since Charlie was Sig's original instructor and obviously his
>senior.
Tony has responded that Wagner did survive the attack. Perhaps it as
I responded to him, perhaps Denzel Muggy. Several of Okazaki's senior
students died at Hickman Field. I thought he was among them.
The Police Course was put together by these students/MPs. They were
professionals. They knew the law. That is why the Yawara stick
course is included sometimes and excluded at other times. Some
police groups allowed it while just in the next town it was not
permitted. At one time it was allowed in Oakland, CA. I believe certain
versions may be illegal in CA today depending on how one reads the law.
Keisatsu Gijutsu = Police Arts (Gijutsu indicating some degree
of expertise)
Dave
JJPage
>(GArrington) writes:
>>In article <2rgujj$h...@src-news.pa.dec.com>, rei...@src.dec.com
(Dean
>>Reimer) writes:
>> Sorry for jumping in the middle here, but Prof. Estes caught my
>>attention. He taught some clinics for Judo and suppo (sp) in PA in
the >>1970's that I attended. I was a 13 year old judoka. He had a
large >>cadre with him who included Prof. Fischer?
>I also attended a couple of Prof. Estes' clinics in Stroudsburg, PA.
>As I remember, Lamar Fisher, Tom Ball and Pat Brown assisted in the
>instruction. In addition, Prof. Florendo Visitacion did some demo of
>his Vee-Jitsu. (At that point, he was an AJJF member.)
>These clinics were very good and I learned a lot. This is where I
>first learned about the Okazaki massage. Does anyone know what
>happened to Bill Gessner and the Stroudsburg jujitsu group? I know
>that some of them are now affiliated with Doug Kiehl's group in
>central PA.
>George Arrington
Profs. Fisher and Ball are in Northen CA. Prof. Brown is outside of
Chicago, and Sensei Gessner is, last I heard, still in PA.
Danzan-Ryu (Kodenkan) jujitsu is taught in Santa Clara, California at
the Ternion Academy of Martial Arts (In the book) by a number of good
instructors. The school head is a student of Lamar Fisher and VERY
good.
If you want more info., drop me a line. Be Well.
JJP...@aol.com
GArrington
> Sorry for jumping in the middle here, but Prof. Estes caught my
attention. He
taught some clinics for Judo and suppo (sp) in PA in the 1970's that
I attended.
I was a 13 year old judoka. He had a large cadre with him who
included Prof.
Fischer?
I also attended a couple of Prof. Estes' clinics in Stroudsburg, PA.
DRBROWNING
writes:
Do you know how to reach Tom Lang?