Phoenix & drunken kung fu
David O'Daniel
than apparently Phoenix or phoenix-eye-fist is maybe a Hakka style &/or
part of some drunken styles, and other than drunken kung fu trys to
mimmic being drunk with seemingly off-balance stepping & standing with
back curved or straight spine but leaning. Also of course the mimmicing
of the holding of a little chinese-type wine/tea cup or tilting up a jug
of wine to drink. It seems that the tilting up is perhaps actualy a lock
or elbow strike depending on the occasion. The holding of a cup seems a
version of maybe phoenix-eye-fist but I'm not sure they ever actually
hit with the crooked finger, like phoenix, but just with the wrist
apparently. Elbows seem really extensively used as well. Is drunken
style considered a Hakka or Southern style as well OR is it all over
North & South China?
Apparently, some of the roots of some karate kata are from drunken &
phoenix styles, though esp by mainland Japanese versions like Shotokan,
any hint of appearing off balance would have been removed & all lines
made straight. Okinawan versions go mch lower & have more of a leaning
option to them, Even Kwan Ku Dai; with the single mountain blocks done
from backstance to then a short backstance, Okinawan versions may go to
near full squatting on the ground (ducking under or sweeping a leg of
the opponent). Those with elements of phoenix &/or drunken kung fu
origine are at least Nijushiho (which may be a total Funakoshi invented
kata), Unsu & Gojushiho. Some sites even mention Gojushiho being
possibly derived from drunken & or phoenix styles. Unsu actually has
that tea-cup holding toasting hand position for a couple of striks.
Esp IF someone were in either Phoenix style or drunken style, who knows
the forms of those styles, maybe could tell if they recognize those
Shotokan Kata as anythign similar to any of their style's forms?
I noticed from some youtube drunken-style demonstration (when I had a
chance to get to a real computer to view youtube), that there was an
elbow technique that automatically reminded me of that turning the arm
UP after a spearhand thrust in Kwan Ku Dai (rather than the usual
turning it down & behind the back as in Heian Sandan)..But it was NOT an
excape but rather the thrust was the catching of the other's arm,
turning hten not to escape but to step past the opponent WHILE puushing
the back behind you with that high elbow to the back of their head or
neck. It puts Kwan Ku Dai in a whole new light.
Anywway, thanks to any who respond & for any information.
Bo
Appledog
> Anyone know any historic or technical information on these styles? Other
> than apparently Phoenix or phoenix-eye-fist is maybe a Hakka style &/or
> part of some drunken styles, and other than drunken kung fu trys to
> mimmic being drunk with seemingly off-balance stepping & standing with
> back curved or straight spine but leaning.
Phoenix-eye fist is a style passed down within families - not sure if
it's hakka or not, but as it's a supposedly secret style I can't tell
you more than what you might already know. It's pretty good kung fu,
not too simple not too difficult, and it seems to work pretty well.
> Also of course the mimmicing
> of the holding of a little chinese-type wine/tea cup or tilting up a jug
> of wine to drink. It seems that the tilting up is perhaps actualy a lock
> or elbow strike depending on the occasion. The holding of a cup seems a
> version of maybe phoenix-eye-fist but I'm not sure they ever actually
> hit with the crooked finger, like phoenix, but just with the wrist
> apparently. Elbows seem really extensively used as well. Is drunken
> style considered a Hakka or Southern style as well OR is it all over
> North & South China?
Drunken style is supposed to be a sort of mindset whereby you try to
loosen yourself up. Once you achieve a certain amount of control over
your body from doing kung fu, you do a little acting to confuse your
opponent and to open up your drunken, playful side. The spontaneous
side. You should read the shu-ha-ri article (on aikiweb, IIRC).
Drunken style helps one to develop their own ideas and movements. It's
also an excuse to drink and then do kung fu. Try it sometime :)
> Apparently, some of the roots of some karate kata are from drunken &
> phoenix styles, though esp by mainland Japanese versions like Shotokan,
> any hint of appearing off balance would have been removed & all lines
> made straight. Okinawan versions go mch lower & have more of a leaning
> option to them, Even Kwan Ku Dai; with the single mountain blocks done
> from backstance to then a short backstance, Okinawan versions may go to
> near full squatting on the ground (ducking under or sweeping a leg of
> the opponent). Those with elements of phoenix &/or drunken kung fu
> origine are at least Nijushiho (which may be a total Funakoshi invented
> kata), Unsu & Gojushiho. Some sites even mention Gojushiho being
> possibly derived from drunken & or phoenix styles. Unsu actually has
> that tea-cup holding toasting hand position for a couple of striks.
That's very interesting, but Drunken Style is not a style of kung fu
based on acting like you're drunk all the time, which then somehow by
unknown consequence would contain new, special or different moves from
regular kung fu. If someone "streamlined" drunken kung fu into a style
of karate, it would not really be drunken kung fu, but whatever form
of kung fu the drunken kung fu was set in.
-
wallen
arizona.....
There is no such bird, living or legend that existed in china. The
phoenix is an egyptian legend.
There is the FengHuang, or leader of all birds, which many westeners
believes to be similar to the phoenix, but they are not related
whatsoever. FengHuand is not related to fire and rebirth.
Believe what you want, but if you'll follow your history and
geography, The logical conclusion is that style would be a very recent
invention.
Appledog
There's a book called phoenix eye fist, but the guy who introduced me
to the style, his name was not Chu. It was Wu, if I recall. Haven't
heard from him in years. Hope you're doing well JJ. My how times have
changed since then, hmm? If I could go back to those days knowing what
I know now, I would turn out a much better person. Then again, it is
the lessons we learn that help us grow.
-
David O'Daniel
Yes, after doing more researching, esp yesterday, indeed it seems that
drunken versions were just put to other existing styles.
Also back at real computers yesterday, I did find on youtube that there
were Okinawan versions of Unsu & Nijushiho (that I had suspected were
created by Funakoshi but was I was apparetnly mistaken). In fact,
looking up Unsu even in the Shotokan, Best Karate, books; apparently the
move done by some as the tea/wine cup holding drunken strike, is
described as a "chicken-head wrist block". Also maybe the "finger"
thrusts done by some (Kenneth Funakoshi for example) are listed
apparently as the single knuckle strikes (aka phoenix eye fist or at
least the 1 knuckle one). So the "drunken" parts may have been
re-interpreted into it by some instructors. The dropping to do
roundhouses from the ground does seem like drunken aspects though but
even that "could" be interpreted as a "simulated" jump double roundhouse
where you can't do a jump double roundhose "slow motion" hanging in the
air for training/walk-through pace.
Though the seeming eagle-beak striks back to groin level with the other
hand not doing the winte-cub toasting fist strike, is described as
ratehr a heel-palm pressing blck, with fingers pointing forward, not
backwards, so yet another contridiction in how Unsu is done.
This current kata researching started from noticing that the ITF TKD
form Tong IL, was apparently influenced by Gojushiho, and also Chinte &
other Shotokan kata. Maybe ITF had that eagle-beak wrist-block confused
with the strike (strike = with finger-tips & palm turned down/ or rather
to the direction of the strike, rather than the "block" with the
wrist/palm vertical & blocking with the thumb side of the wrist upward,
NOT the back of the hand/wrist). There may stil be such a block though,
if the 1 block in Karate Kid about 30 years after ITF was invented, was
based on something real from Okinawan karate. ;-)
Note that there was a phoenix fist youtube video that seemed very
reminisent of the 3 spearhand at least striks of Gojushiho Sho and the
double punches at 45° of Gojushiho Dai. The one with the guy in a
black T-shirt, maybe in his basemnt. At least it seems similar to me,
though perhaps due to my pint of view of trying to reverse-engineer kata
back to their origines & roots.
Anyway, back to contemplating on those roots & possible origines of
things....
Bo