Muay Thai for the over 50s
Daniel
horrified that i'm doing it, telling me that in Thailand no one over
about 30 does that stuff. she tells me 2 former famous Thai fighters
are paralysed and live off offerings from young fighters. She now
refers to me as "Stupid Old Buffalo"...not a term of endearment :(
The coach (all of about 21 y.o but a very nice guy nonetheless)
reckons I should avoid kicking and concentrate on kneeing instead. My
hips have suffered over the years due to too much stretching, for
Judo, 'cos of slight hip displasia...to keep them flexible with the
result that my left hip has been fitted with a Birmingham resurfacing
implant (due to frank OA). Even when using the forearm pads those
kicks really give a jolt and my wrists hurt a bit. Not sure this is
doing me any good....
Anyone got any suggetions? I am enjoying it!....but....maybe i'll just
stick to Judo (i think i actually know a bit about that!) and a bit of
BJJ and boxing...
Daniel
avid fan
> After 3 MT sessions my hips are stuffed. My Thai GF/fiance is
> horrified that i'm doing it, telling me that in Thailand no one over
> about 30 does that stuff. she tells me 2 former famous Thai fighters
> are paralysed and live off offerings from young fighters.
Your GF is referring to Top line professional Thai Boxers
I could name professional rugby players that have been severely brain
damaged, broken necks, forced to retire due injuries. They only play
half the year on weekends.
The Prince of Wales suffers severe back pain and forced to take major
pain medication on a daily basis. He wears a specially designed back
support corset because he fell from his horse one too many times while
playing polo.
It is a tough life in Thailand. Most Thai boxers are street kids. It
is a business, Kids fight full contact from childhood. It is a
numbers game. If they get injured (Or are not up to it) they are back
on street begging. It is only money most of the trainers care about.
They take their fighters to bars for demonstration matches, When the
demonstration matches are done they invite people from the audience to
to fight their fighters. Usually these are Western tourists with a few
tiger beers. Usually the tourists are twice their size but they have to
put on a show, they can't beat them too quickly so they get hit.
If the Thai boxers go into a professional fight and lose they can expect
to get beaten up again by their instructors. Being a professional Thai
boxer is a tough life. Is it any wonder they retire at 30
You on the other hand are doing Thai boxing for fun, fitness and self
defense. You are not going to fly over to Thailand to join the
professional circuit.
When I started boxing I thought I knew a lot more than I really did.
I thought that because I had done Jeet Kune Do and Thai boxing. We did
pad work. Bag work is a lot different. I quick abandoned my bag mits.
As my punching and foot work got better, even with wraps and 16 ounce
gloves I found my hands started to really ache. It got worse and worse
until I finally had to give up boxing for three months until my hands
healed completely. After that - No problem.
Maybe you should give Muay Thai a rest for a few months. There is
nothing worse than getting an injury, letting it half heal then injuring
it in same place again. A sports doctor would be able to tell you if
you have the range of movement to continue.
She now
> refers to me as "Stupid Old Buffalo"...not a term of endearment :(
> The coach (all of about 21 y.o but a very nice guy nonetheless)
> reckons I should avoid kicking and concentrate on kneeing instead. My
> hips have suffered over the years due to too much stretching, for
> Judo, 'cos of slight hip displasia...to keep them flexible with the
> result that my left hip has been fitted with a Birmingham resurfacing
> implant (due to frank OA).
Even when using the forearm pads those
> kicks really give a jolt and my wrists hurt a bit. Not sure this is
> doing me any good....
>
How long does the pain last for? A few minutes, a day. As long as the
next time you come in to train there is no pain you will adjust.
Punching a bag is the best way to strengthen your wrist.
> Anyone got any suggetions? I am enjoying it!....but....maybe i'll just
> stick to Judo (i think i actually know a bit about that!) and a bit of
> BJJ and boxing...
Stop 3 months then try again. See your doctor to see if there is a
medical problem
The principle of Jeet Kune do is that fight your opponent at a range
they are not comfortable with. So the more ranges that you can fight
in the better off you are.
If you are fighting a boxer. You kick them you are outside their
fighting range. If they get inside your kicking range you draw them
closer with a Thai clinch and use elbows and knees too close for their
effective punching range. If you have to take them to the ground then
you do that.
I once got into fight with three arseholes. Although they thought they
were boxers the only boxing they knew was from TV. I beat them all
using the principles out lined above. I got hit once from behind,
because I took pity on the guy I was fighting and asked him if he had
had enough. (dumb when they are on the floor and can't get up is when
you take pity.) Anyway the guy who hit me from behind was the smallest
it was like being hit with a wet sponge.
One of the guys was huge 6ft 7 I kicked him and kicked him I could hear
his ribs cracking. Finally he got through my defense so I pulled him
closer using the Thai clinch. I was inside is effective punching range.
I lifted myself of up so he was carrying my entire body weight. Head
butted him and kneed him at the same time. He tried to violently push me
off. I extended my arms then using the swing pulled the clinch in and
brought my knees into his ribs and stomach.
This was enough to make him lose his balance. I landed safely with a
break fall on concrete and he fell on top off me. I had enough time
raise my knee and elbow in his face so he had a comfortable landing.
On the ground I did some nasty things to him.
I would not have wanted to be any of them the next morning.
Mr Big I'm pretty sure got a permanent injury. The sort that cannot be
fixed.
All I ended up with was a graze on my forehead.
>
> Daniel
Wannabe
I took Muay Thai a few years ago. The only gem I kept from Muay Thai
is the roundhouse shin kick. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Roundhousekicks.PNG
The secret to developing power in this kick is to learn to ROTATE and
THROW your hip with your FULLY-OUTSTRETCHED leg to spin and whack
your opponent with the shin of your leg. One way to develop the full
power of this kick is to swing a heavy sandbag and use your roundhouse
shin kick to whack the sandbag to stop the swinging in its track. If
you have developed enough power, your kick will stop the swinging
sandbag with a loud and deafening thud. It is a deadly kick in real
life to whack your opponent in the mid-section with such force, but
you can break your leg if you accidentally hit some concrete or steel
obstacles.
Herbert Cannon
Yup. If you are over fifty you are simply not going to heal as fast as
young ones. Your girlfriend is right. She may start calling you "
Dead Buffalo" or " Crippled Buffalo," if you continue. You may find
yourself punching when a bell rings. Ever listen to Muhammed Ali's
voice as a young man and then later in life? It becomes slurred.
You have an eighteen year old brain and a fifty year old body. They
are not communicating. The brain says this is fun; and the body is
screaming objections. So back off the MT. You are at the age where you
may have to consider the more sedate martial arts. That is the bad
news. The good news is - that means weapons. Old guys need weapons!
Skews a fight in their favor. Fighting is for young guys. They enjoy
it. Old guys do not. They will kill you if you try to fight them. You
may call me, Killer.
Consider taking up Jodo or Iaido. Go to the gym for exercise
( machines, weights) run or walk for cardio. No bruises or traumas
that do not heal and cause permanent limps.
Any questions?
Herbert Cannon
trav...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nah, just go read another dumb trash novel that confirms whatever you
want to believe
Trav
gemjack
<hcan...@cox.net> wrote:
> Ever listen to Muhammed Ali's
>voice as a young man and then later in life? It becomes slurred.
Ali was a professional fighter, not to mention he has Parkinson's. Not
the best example.
>You have an eighteen year old brain and a fifty year old body.
I recall you saying this to me once, I'm 40 and I feel in the best
shape of my life. A good compadre at the dojo just turned 51 and when
he strikes it's like being hit by steel bars.
I don't know if I would *start* MT, or any other striking art at the
stage of the game of being 50, but I would certainly not stop doing
what I know in the art I'm in. Your recommendation of weapons is a
good idea. I personally have always wanted to get proficient at
sticks, the short ones. Seems the most practical in a real world
situation.
Pierre Honeyman
> After 3 MT sessions my hips are stuffed.
Define stuffed?
> My Thai GF/fiance is
> horrified that i'm doing it,
Seriously, who cares what women think about what men do for their own
entertainment? I don't.
> telling me that in Thailand no one over
> about 30 does that stuff. she tells me 2 former famous Thai fighters
> are paralysed and live off offerings from young fighters.
They didn't get that way from *training*, FFS.
> She now
> refers to me as "Stupid Old Buffalo"...not a term of endearment :(
Dump her.
Look, if you're over 50 shit is going to hurt. I'm 40 and shit hurts!
You should know this. Try taking time off until it doesn't hurt so
much, and then go back. You're not 21 anymore.
Pierre
Herbert Cannon
wrote:
For that I just have to read your posts.
Herbert Cannon
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:16:52 -0700 (PDT), Herbert Cannon
>
> > Ever listen to Muhammed Ali's
> >voice as a young man and then later in life? It becomes slurred.
>
> Ali was a professional fighter, not to mention he has Parkinson's. Not
> the best example.
>
> >You have an eighteen year old brain and a fifty year old body.
>
> I recall you saying this to me once, I'm 40 and I feel in the best
> shape of my life.
If you are forty I did not say you had a fifty year old body did I?
You are still a kid.
A good compadre at the dojo just turned 51 and when
> he strikes it's like being hit by steel bars.
Give him another 20 years. Broken bones get arthritis as you age.
>
> I don't know if I would *start* MT, or any other striking art at the
> stage of the game of being 50, but I would certainly not stop doing
> what I know in the art I'm in.
No reason to; but I rather doubt you are going to regularly take on
much younger fighters either.
Your recommendation of weapons is a
> good idea. I personally have always wanted to get proficient at
> sticks, the short ones. Seems the most practical in a real world
> situation.
Save it for later.
Herbert Cannon
> On Apr 12, 4:07 pm, Daniel <nidan.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > After 3 MT sessions my hips are stuffed.
>
> Define stuffed?
>
> > My Thai GF/fiance is
> > horrified that i'm doing it,
>
> Seriously, who cares what women think about what men do for their own
> entertainment?
Women do.
I don't.
>
> > telling me that in Thailand no one over
> > about 30 does that stuff. she tells me 2 former famous Thai fighters
> > are paralysed and live off offerings from young fighters.
>
> They didn't get that way from *training*, FFS.
>
> > She now
> > refers to me as "Stupid Old Buffalo"...not a term of endearment :(
>
> Dump her.
She cares.
>
> Look, if you're over 50 shit is going to hurt. I'm 40 and shit hurts!
> You should know this. Try taking time off until it doesn't hurt so
> much, and then go back. You're not 21 anymore.
>
That was my point.
Daniel
Shit hurts a lot more at 54 than at 40. At 40 i was still doing comp
style randori with anybody. these days i don't - period. i pick my
practice partners and stay with guys i know and trust. we still have a
good go at each other...but i know if i do get thrown it'll be done
properly and i can breakfall safely....with no stupid clumsy movements
intervening...that goes for groundwork also...except that one has more
control in g/w as things don't (usually) happen so fast. After my MT
training both hips ached. the steel one AND the other one. my right
forearm hurt i think from recieving practice kicks even tho i was
wearing the protection pad over it. Anyway, I think i will lay off it
for a while, go back when it doesn't hurt anymore :)
As far as my gf/fiance is concerned, thanks for all the advice. i am
going to follow ALL the advice given to me by this learned group and
will dump her immediately. What do i care if one of the most beautiful
Thai ladies you would EVER have seen (and also the absolute
BEST ..errr...cook) disappears from my life?
NOT!!!
:)
Yeh, i know i'm not 21 anymore....all the more reason to hold on to
her ;)
Just out of interest i looked at a few MT sites and saw a reference to
'traditional' thai boxing - which has a lot more in it than modern
Muay Thai...i think it was referred to as Muay Boran. Interesting that
grappling is not allowed in it, either :(
Daniel
Fraser Johnston
> Yeh, i know i'm not 21 anymore....all the more reason to hold on to
> her ;)
>
> Just out of interest i looked at a few MT sites and saw a reference to
> 'traditional' thai boxing - which has a lot more in it than modern
> Muay Thai...i think it was referred to as Muay Boran. Interesting that
> grappling is not allowed in it, either :(
I am shocked and saddened that Trav hasn't suggested a course or roids
and HGH yet.
Fraser
gemjack
<hcan...@cox.net> wrote:
>On Apr 13, 1:55 pm, gemjack <geminijackso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:16:52 -0700 (PDT), Herbert Cannon
>>
>> <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
>> > Ever listen to Muhammed Ali's
>> >voice as a young man and then later in life? It becomes slurred.
>>
>> Ali was a professional fighter, not to mention he has Parkinson's. Not
>> the best example.
>>
>> >You have an eighteen year old brain and a fifty year old body.
>>
>> I recall you saying this to me once, I'm 40 and I feel in the best
>> shape of my life.
>
>If you are forty I did not say you had a fifty year old body did I?
>You are still a kid.
Well, no, you said 40. And I'm a kid? Now that is fantastic news!
> A good compadre at the dojo just turned 51 and when
>> he strikes it's like being hit by steel bars.
>
>Give him another 20 years. Broken bones get arthritis as you age.
I think we're all aware of that.
>> I don't know if I would *start* MT, or any other striking art at the
>> stage of the game of being 50, but I would certainly not stop doing
>> what I know in the art I'm in.
>
>No reason to; but I rather doubt you are going to regularly take on
>much younger fighters either.
If its in the art you're proficient in, why not? You may not have the
speed and strength, but your technique should be far superior.
> Your recommendation of weapons is a
>> good idea. I personally have always wanted to get proficient at
>> sticks, the short ones. Seems the most practical in a real world
>> situation.
>
>Save it for later.
No choice but to do just that. I'd have trouble squeezing an extra
piss into my schedule much less another fighting style.
Herbert Cannon
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:42:07 -0700 (PDT), Herbert Cannon
>
>
>
> <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
> >On Apr 13, 1:55 pm, gemjack <geminijackso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:16:52 -0700 (PDT), Herbert Cannon
>
> >> <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> > Ever listen to Muhammed Ali's
> >> >voice as a young man and then later in life? It becomes slurred.
>
> >> Ali was a professional fighter, not to mention he has Parkinson's. Not
> >> the best example.
>
> >> >You have an eighteen year old brain and a fifty year old body.
>
> >> I recall you saying this to me once, I'm 40 and I feel in the best
> >> shape of my life.
>
> >If you are forty I did not say you had a fifty year old body did I?
> >You are still a kid.
>
> Well, no, you said 40.
The body ages the brain does not.
And I'm a kid? Now that is fantastic news!
Wait thirty more years or more.
>
> > A good compadre at the dojo just turned 51 and when
> >> he strikes it's like being hit by steel bars.
>
> >Give him another 20 years. Broken bones get arthritis as you age.
>
> I think we're all aware of that.
Yup but you have not experienced it yet. It is called wisdom.
>
> >> I don't know if I would *start* MT, or any other striking art at the
> >> stage of the game of being 50, but I would certainly not stop doing
> >> what I know in the art I'm in.
>
> >No reason to; but I rather doubt you are going to regularly take on
> >much younger fighters either.
>
> If its in the art you're proficient in, why not?
Cause they think they are immortal.
You may not have the
> speed and strength, but your technique should be far superior.
It only takes one mistake.
>
> > Your recommendation of weapons is a
> >> good idea. I personally have always wanted to get proficient at
> >> sticks, the short ones. Seems the most practical in a real world
> >> situation.
>
> >Save it for later.
>
> No choice but to do just that. I'd have trouble squeezing an extra
> piss into my schedule much less another fighting style.
You will have the time is about ten years or so. Then you will piss
more often.
Herbert Cannon
wrote:
He has a naturally fried brain.
Pierre Honeyman
> On Apr 14, 6:20 am, Pierre Honeyman <pear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 12, 4:07 pm, Daniel <nidan.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > After 3 MT sessions my hips are stuffed.
>
> > Define stuffed?
>
> > > My Thai GF/fiance is
> > > horrified that i'm doing it,
>
> > Seriously, who cares what women think about what men do for their own
> > entertainment? I don't.
>
> > > telling me that in Thailand no one over
> > > about 30 does that stuff. she tells me 2 former famous Thai fighters
> > > are paralysed and live off offerings from young fighters.
>
> > They didn't get that way from *training*, FFS.
>
> > > She now
> > > refers to me as "Stupid Old Buffalo"...not a term of endearment :(
>
> > Dump her.
>
> > Look, if you're over 50 shit is going to hurt. I'm 40 and shit hurts!
> > You should know this. Try taking time off until it doesn't hurt so
> > much, and then go back. You're not 21 anymore.
>
> > Pierre
>
> Shit hurts a lot more at 54 than at 40.
No doubt!
> After my MT
> training both hips ached. the steel one AND the other one. my right
> forearm hurt i think from recieving practice kicks even tho i was
> wearing the protection pad over it. Anyway, I think i will lay off it
> for a while, go back when it doesn't hurt anymore :)
See? Nothing to it :)
> As far as my gf/fiance is concerned, thanks for all the advice. i am
> going to follow ALL the advice given to me by this learned group and
> will dump her immediately. What do i care if one of the most beautiful
> Thai ladies you would EVER have seen (and also the absolute
> BEST ..errr...cook) disappears from my life?
My point about that was that what women think about what men do for
recreation is utterly irrelevant, and should be. Men do man things;
women do woman things. We shouldn't bitch at each other about it. And
if she bitches at you about it, the best thing to do is to just ignore
her. Because telling her to STFU never ends well.
> Yeh, i know i'm not 21 anymore....all the more reason to hold on to
> her ;)
The best part about being 50 is trading her in for two 25s.
> Just out of interest i looked at a few MT sites and saw a reference to
> 'traditional' thai boxing -
Traditional according to whom? :)
Pierre
TimR
You've earned a rest.
Buy a gun, keep your girlfriend.
Wait, what is she wearing?
Daniel
> On Apr 13, 8:00 pm, Daniel <nidan.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 14, 6:20 am, Pierre Honeyman <pear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 12, 4:07 pm, Daniel <nidan.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > After 3 MT sessions my hips are stuffed.
>
> > > Define stuffed?
>
> > > > My Thai GF/fiance is
> > > > horrified that i'm doing it,
>
> > > Seriously, who cares what women think about what men do for their own
> > > entertainment? I don't.
She worries about me. She is happy me doing judo...but feels i got an
interest in MT cos of her. And doesn't want me to get hurt. She is not
a woman to nag. She just tells me what to do!....but as far as MA is
concerned I'll do as i want. But i do like her caring...for sure!
> > > > telling me that in Thailand no one over
> > > > about 30 does that stuff. she tells me 2 former famous Thai fighters
> > > > are paralysed and live off offerings from young fighters.
>
> > > They didn't get that way from *training*, FFS.
>
> > > > She now
> > > > refers to me as "Stupid Old Buffalo"...not a term of endearment :(
>
> > > Dump her.
Not an option if i want to stay happy.
> > > Look, if you're over 50 shit is going to hurt. I'm 40 and shit hurts!
> > > You should know this. Try taking time off until it doesn't hurt so
> > > much, and then go back. You're not 21 anymore.
>
> > > Pierre
>
> > Shit hurts a lot more at 54 than at 40.
>
> No doubt!
>
> > After my MT
> > training both hips ached. the steel one AND the other one. my right
> > forearm hurt i think from recieving practice kicks even tho i was
> > wearing the protection pad over it. Anyway, I think i will lay off it
> > for a while, go back when it doesn't hurt anymore :)
>
> See? Nothing to it :)
I guess :(
> > As far as my gf/fiance is concerned, thanks for all the advice. i am
> > going to follow ALL the advice given to me by this learned group and
> > will dump her immediately. What do i care if one of the most beautiful
> > Thai ladies you would EVER have seen (and also the absolute
> > BEST ..errr...cook) disappears from my life?
>
> My point about that was that what women think about what men do for
> recreation is utterly irrelevant, and should be. Men do man things;
> women do woman things. We shouldn't bitch at each other about it. And
> if she bitches at you about it, the best thing to do is to just ignore
> her. Because telling her to STFU never ends well.
Yes...telling her to STFU is also not an option...I would be killed
within 5 seconds
> > Yeh, i know i'm not 21 anymore....all the more reason to hold on to
> > her ;)
>
> The best part about being 50 is trading her in for two 25s.
I wouldn't trade her for anything. She's the best thing that's ever
happened to me save getting a wonderful son with the help of my ex. 2
x 25 year olds couldn't do the stuff that this 1 x 43 year old can do.
she's had more guys than 2 x 25 year olds as well..and remembers all
she learned on the way...and knows how to make me VERY happy. Why
would I trade her for anything?
> > Just out of interest i looked at a few MT sites and saw a reference to
> > 'traditional' thai boxing -
>
> Traditional according to whom? :)
Don't laugh now! Wikipedia : Muay Boran (with lots of links)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay_Boran#External_links
Daniel
at this moment probably her working gear...colored shirt t-shirt or
collared shirt, (the colour is dependent on the day of the week cos
she works for local government) and kind of tight working trousers,
that reveal clearly the outilne of her tight and shapely
figure..usually with stiletto heels or sometimes slightly lower heels.
not sure what she's got on underneath, though....but i know what she
HASN"T got on....cos she gives me some to keep at home, here in
australia, to remind me of her :)
Daniel
Pierre Honeyman
> On Apr 15, 9:26 am, Pierre Honeyman <pear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> She worries about me. She is happy me doing judo...but feels i got an
> interest in MT cos of her. And doesn't want me to get hurt. She is not
> a woman to nag. She just tells me what to do!....but as far as MA is
> concerned I'll do as i want. But i do like her caring...for sure!
Calling you stupid old buffalo, not as a term of endearment, is
nagging.
> > My point about that was that what women think about what men do for
> > recreation is utterly irrelevant, and should be. Men do man things;
> > women do woman things. We shouldn't bitch at each other about it. And
> > if she bitches at you about it, the best thing to do is to just ignore
> > her. Because telling her to STFU never ends well.
>
> Yes...telling her to STFU is also not an option...I would be killed
> within 5 seconds
Sissy.
> > The best part about being 50 is trading her in for two 25s.
>
> I wouldn't trade her for anything. She's the best thing that's ever
> happened to me save getting a wonderful son with the help of my ex. 2
> x 25 year olds couldn't do the stuff that this 1 x 43 year old can do.
> she's had more guys than 2 x 25 year olds as well..and remembers all
> she learned on the way...and knows how to make me VERY happy. Why
> would I trade her for anything?
2 younger ones is always better ;)
> > Traditional according to whom? :)
>
> Don't laugh now! Wikipedia : Muay Boran (with lots of links)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay_Boran#External_links
I won't laugh. I honestly didn't know! Thing is, there's lots of
"traditional" martial arts, especially ones that are obscure, that are
just plain made up :) I'm not saying that this is!
Pierre
Daniel
> On Apr 14, 10:31 pm, Daniel <nidan.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > My point about that was that what women think about what men do for
> > > recreation is utterly irrelevant, and should be. Men do man things;
> > > women do woman things. We shouldn't bitch at each other about it. And
> > > if she bitches at you about it, the best thing to do is to just ignore
> > > her. Because telling her to STFU never ends well.
>
> > Yes...telling her to STFU is also not an option...I would be killed
> > within 5 seconds
>
> Sissy.
Yup...with her i am.
> > > The best part about being 50 is trading her in for two 25s.
>
> > I wouldn't trade her for anything. She's the best thing that's ever
> > happened to me save getting a wonderful son with the help of my ex. 2
> > x 25 year olds couldn't do the stuff that this 1 x 43 year old can do.
> > she's had more guys than 2 x 25 year olds as well..and remembers all
> > she learned on the way...and knows how to make me VERY happy. Why
> > would I trade her for anything?
>
> 2 younger ones is always better ;)
Says you. Been there done that. Our experiences are obviously
different,
> > > Traditional according to whom? :)
>
> > Don't laugh now! Wikipedia : Muay Boran (with lots of links)
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay_Boran#External_links
>
> I won't laugh. I honestly didn't know! Thing is, there's lots of
> "traditional" martial arts, especially ones that are obscure, that are
> just plain made up :) I'm not saying that this is!
>
> Pierre
Point accepted...the term 'traditional' often gets misused in MAs. It
was new to me also.
Daniel