Travis' WMD's
Mike Sigman
Ex-inspector says Iraq sent 'lot of material'
By AP
LONDON -- David Kay, who recently resigned as leader of a U.S. weapons
search team in Iraq, said part of captive president Saddam Hussein's weapons
program was hidden in Syria, a report in Britain's Sunday Telegraph
newspaper said today. Kay was reported to have said he had uncovered
evidence unspecified materials were moved to Syria shortly before last
year's U.S. invasion of Iraq.
"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons but we know from some
of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went
to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD (weapons
of mass destruction) program," Kay was reported saying in the interview
conducted yesterday.
"Precisely what went to Syria and what has happened to it is a major issue
that needs to be resolved," he added.
David Kay said Friday that Iraq had no stockpiles of biological and chemical
weapons, and Secretary of State Colin Powell said yesterday it was an open
question if they'd be found.
A senior U.S. official said yesterday Vice- President Dick Cheney, attending
the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, believed "the jury's still
out."
Speaking to reporters as he flew to today's inauguration of Georgian
President-elect Mikhail Saakashvili, Powell said: The open question is how
many stocks they had, if any, and if they had any, where did they go. And if
they didn't have any, then why wasn't that known beforehand?"
Syria has denied pursuing weapons of mass destruction and said the long,
porous border with Iraq makes it hard to stop infiltrators.
Last month, U.S. President George W. Bush approved the Syria Accountability
and Lebanese Sovereignty Restoration Act, which accuses Syria of hosting
Palestinian militant groups, such as Hamas and Jihad, and seeking biological
and chemical weapons.
eric neale
"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:hXOQb.113552$Rc4.843736@attbi_s54...
> WMD in Syria: Kay
>
> Ex-inspector says Iraq sent 'lot of material'
>
> By AP
>
>
>
>
> LONDON -- David Kay, who recently resigned as leader of a U.S. weapons
> search team in Iraq, said part of captive president Saddam Hussein's
weapons
> program was hidden in Syria, a report in Britain's Sunday Telegraph
> newspaper said today. Kay was reported to have said he had uncovered
> evidence unspecified materials were moved to Syria shortly before last
> year's U.S. invasion of Iraq.
> "We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons but we know from
some
> of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material
went
> to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD
(weapons
> of mass destruction) program," Kay was reported saying in the interview
> conducted yesterday.
> "Precisely what went to Syria and what has happened to it is a major issue
> that needs to be resolved," he added.
The problem is that we can't do anything about it in the short term. There
has been too much political flack from the peace mongers and our economy
cannot support any new operations. Thus diplomacy won't work because Syria
will know they are safe. If our economy improves we might be able to put
some pressure on Syria a few years from now.
+-
Why cant you just let this go. They haven't found shit and they aren't
likely gonna. Nor is there any proven ties to Bin Laden. Get over it and
stop beating a dead and proven false horse. You are simply wrong.
Next issue.
--
+-; the point where things begin and end, where the end is start and start
comes to it's final end.....
Chas
> The problem is that we can't do anything about it in the short term.
There
> has been too much political flack from the peace mongers and our economy
> cannot support any new operations. Thus diplomacy won't work because
Syria
> will know they are safe. If our economy improves we might be able to put
> some pressure on Syria a few years from now.
Nah; the ME is split into sections now- we could simply walk away from Iraq,
pull out of Afghanistan (let them fight amongst themselves, in the dark) and
go mop up Syria.
Saudi Arabia is the next one to enter civil war- and we'll be in position to
help <g>
If Pakistan gets frisky, India will crush them-
and that's a 'good' thing.
China will solve it's Muslim problem by attacking some of the former SovUn
'stans'; the Pan-Asian War will start, we can retreat to Fortress America,
and listen for the noise to stop before visiting over there again.
Well; civility didn't work.
Chas
Chas
> Why cant you just let this go.
Because people like you have made it such a salient issue.
> They haven't found shit and they aren't
> likely gonna. Nor is there any proven ties to Bin Laden. Get over it and
> stop beating a dead and proven false horse. You are simply wrong.
You keep wanting a Perry Mason Moment wherein Saddam confesses all in
tearful repentance-
*that's* what's not going to happen.
c.
TravIsGod
>WMD in Syria: Kay
>
>Ex-inspector says Iraq sent 'lot of material'
>
>By AP
>
>
>
A claim which Syria has flatly denied and there is no evidence to substantiate.
>Kay was reported to have said he had uncovered
>evidence unspecified materials were moved to Syria shortly before last
>year's U.S. invasion of Iraq.
Mmm hmm. Heard this before. "Unspecified materials." Like what, some weed
killer like we found in those "mobile WMD labs" which turned out to be Roto
Rooter and Terminex trucks?
Bush in State of Union: "evidence of Weapons of Mass Destruction program
related activities."
OK, does it get more nebulous than that?
Oh yeah, the excuse now is that they're all in Syria...millions of tons of
them, I'm sure.
>"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons
Do you read your shit before posting it, Mikey?
>David Kay said Friday that Iraq had no stockpiles of biological and chemical
>weapons,
Pay me $10.
Trav
TravIsGod
>Why cant you just let this go. They haven't found shit and they aren't
>likely gonna. Nor is there any proven ties to Bin Laden. Get over it and
>stop beating a dead and proven false horse. You are simply wrong.
>
>Next issue.
Mikey is simply desperately grasping at straws. He's like a cripple that got
thrown overboard from a liferaft.
Trav
Mike Sigman
"TravIsGod" <trav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040126135407...@mb-m19.aol.com...
> >
> >WMD in Syria: Kay
> >
> >Ex-inspector says Iraq sent 'lot of material'
> >
> >By AP
> >
> >
> >
>
> A claim which Syria has flatly denied and there is no evidence to
substantiate.
>
Well that settles it, then...... Syria has never lied about anything and
everything, has it? You moron.
> >Kay was reported to have said he had uncovered
> >evidence unspecified materials were moved to Syria shortly before last
> >year's U.S. invasion of Iraq.
>
> Mmm hmm. Heard this before. "Unspecified materials." Like what, some
weed
> killer like we found in those "mobile WMD labs" which turned out to be
Roto
> Rooter and Terminex trucks?
Why don't you tell us what the unspecified materials were, since you already
know everything?
>
> Bush in State of Union: "evidence of Weapons of Mass Destruction program
> related activities."
>
> OK, does it get more nebulous than that?
>
> Oh yeah, the excuse now is that they're all in Syria...millions of tons of
> them, I'm sure.
>
> >"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons
>
> Do you read your shit before posting it, Mikey?
>
> >David Kay said Friday that Iraq had no stockpiles of biological and
chemical
> >weapons,
>
> Pay me $10.
One of the interesting little fights that's going on right now is the
misquotes attributed to David Kay. His official statement was that none
have been found so far in Iraq, but not enough evidence has been found to
make a *definitive* statement either way. Which is what I keep telling
you, numbnuts. You can't even read.
To be honest, I'm beginning to get a bad feeling that there ARE some WMDs
and the Bushies actually know where they are and they're going to wait and
finally spring that one on us when the election gets a little nearer. No
one with any inside knowledge and no intelligence agency in the world is
dumb enough to think there were absolutely NO WMD's .... but if the timing
of a "finding" hits too close to the election, I'm thinking about voting for
Lieberman as a write-in.
Mike
Mike
Badger North
<mikes...@bresnan.net> wrote:
>To be honest, I'm beginning to get a bad feeling that there ARE some WMDs
>and the Bushies actually know where they are and they're going to wait and
>finally spring that one on us when the election gets a little nearer. No
>one with any inside knowledge and no intelligence agency in the world is
>dumb enough to think there were absolutely NO WMD's .... but if the timing
>of a "finding" hits too close to the election, I'm thinking about voting for
>Lieberman as a write-in.
Nasty thinking, but I could imagine something like that happening -
especially if the troop pullout doesn't happen before your elections.
weirdwolf
news:jdra10ps6iiohsk4u...@4ax.com:
Just as an aside to this, what have you lot heard over the pond about the
Hutton report?
Ted
--
Evil is such a negative term........
I prefer differently moraled.
\ /
0 0
°
~
Y
Mike Sigman
"weirdwolf" <weirdwo...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns947CD22B5741Aiy...@130.133.1.4...
> Just as an aside to this, what have you lot heard over the pond about the
> Hutton report?
Sure. That's the report where that scientist Kelly was FORCED to commit
suicide by either Blair himself or by the BBC. Lord Hutton is going to
decide which one of them led him out behind the barn and made him do it to
himself. :^)
Mike
weirdwolf
$I06.1550107@attbi_s01:
I must admit I feel for the bloke, he's been named when he was supposed
not to be and had his life's work disparaged and called a liar,(one thing
I hate , which is why I went off on one when you called me a liar.)
Basically he has been shit upon from a great height by all involved,
just because he was trying to get the information out there that it was
important for the people to know.
I was seriously wondering what sort of coverage you got about it and if
you knew the report was due to be published this week, it miht make
interesting reading.
Mike Sigman
> I must admit I feel for the bloke, he's been named when he was supposed
> not to be and had his life's work disparaged and called a liar,(one thing
> I hate , which is why I went off on one when you called me a liar.)
> Basically he has been shit upon from a great height by all involved,
> just because he was trying to get the information out there that it was
> important for the people to know.
Regardless of him "trying to get the information out there" and whether he
was right or wrong, his suicide was his own problem and something he did
himself. The height of absurdity is for the Hutton committee to try and fix
the blame for Kelly's suicide on either the BBC or Blair. It's a complete,
blathering joke against sanity and it goes to show how far mad cow disease
has spread throughout the UK. :^)
> I was seriously wondering what sort of coverage you got about it and if
> you knew the report was due to be published this week, it miht make
> interesting reading.
We don't get much. If I didn't follow the news and hate the BBC so much, I
wouldn't even pay attention. Britain has become so concerned with the
rights of every twit that starts whining and crying that she's going down
the tubes. In an effort to make everyone feel comfortable, England has
dumbed itself down to the level of the States, nowadays.
Mike
weirdwolf
$xy6.755465@attbi_s02:
>
> "weirdwolf" <weirdwo...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns947CEA80C9AC9iy...@130.133.1.4...
>
>> I must admit I feel for the bloke, he's been named when he was
supposed
>> not to be and had his life's work disparaged and called a liar,(one
thing
>> I hate , which is why I went off on one when you called me a liar.)
>> Basically he has been shit upon from a great height by all involved,
>> just because he was trying to get the information out there that it
was
>> important for the people to know.
>
> Regardless of him "trying to get the information out there" and whether
he
> was right or wrong, his suicide was his own problem and something he
did
> himself. The height of absurdity is for the Hutton committee to try
and fix
> the blame for Kelly's suicide on either the BBC or Blair. It's a
complete,
> blathering joke against sanity and it goes to show how far mad cow
disease
> has spread throughout the UK. :^)
Nope he took his own life, however I'm more interested in how a
sucessful, intelligent man was put under so much pressure that he felt
that that was his only option and why they felt the need to put so much
pressure on him. It's not so much the suicide the inquiry is looking at
but how the govenment behaved, a inquiry all citizens would welcome. I
would have thought a republican like yourself would have welcomed any
exposure to government interference, for example if an intelligence
operative was outed into the public domain, a treasonable offence I
believe >;-)
Hows the inquiry into that going >;-)
>
>> I was seriously wondering what sort of coverage you got about it and
if
>> you knew the report was due to be published this week, it miht make
>> interesting reading.
>
> We don't get much. If I didn't follow the news and hate the BBC so
much, I
> wouldn't even pay attention. Britain has become so concerned with the
> rights of every twit that starts whining and crying that she's going
down
> the tubes. In an effort to make everyone feel comfortable, England
has
> dumbed itself down to the level of the States, nowadays.
Hmm I read somewhere that 30% of your lot didn't know that the Earth
went around the sun, I hope we've got away to go before we reach that
level. Mind you having seen my fellow countrymen I sometimes wonder if I
can apply for a change os species humans really depress me.
Mike Sigman
You're still blaming the other people for "pressure" as being the source of
the suicide. Maybe he was depressed because he couldn't get erections
anymore or he was having problems at home or he was always unstable,
etc..... and the "pressure" was just normal. In other words, you've
already assigned guilt to someone else when the man wilfully took his own
life!!!! Most people simply resign if the job's too much for them.
Repeat after me.... "He took his own life and no one made him do it".
God.... northern Europeans are the only humans that worry constantly about
their guilt in every affair. No other group cares a whit about doing
"wrongs" to others so much.
> It's not so much the suicide the inquiry is looking at
> but how the govenment behaved, a inquiry all citizens would welcome. I
> would have thought a republican like yourself would have welcomed any
> exposure to government interference, for example if an intelligence
> operative was outed into the public domain, a treasonable offence I
> believe >;-)
> Hows the inquiry into that going >;-)
It's still going on. Hard to say what will happen. It's not a treasonable
offense. What's so galling about it is that a great number of Washington
insiders have come forward and said that everyone and their brother knew the
lady worked for the CIA, including every enemy agent in town. She was
"outted" at all.
> Hmm I read somewhere that 30% of your lot didn't know that the Earth
> went around the sun,
Oh, please, if the earth really went around the sun we'd have seen the
backside of the sun by now and we haven't. What balderdash.
>Mind you having seen my fellow countrymen I sometimes wonder if I
> can apply for a change os species humans really depress me.
You just need to get out of the fog, rain, etc., that drives men crazy.
Look at the utter tripe you're posting about Kelly.... a sure sign that
you're beyond help.
Mike
weirdwolf
5.191222@attbi_s03:
Well all the evidence revealed so far has been of a respected happy
family man, something pushed him over the edge.
> Most people simply resign if the job's too much for them.
Yup, and most people don't have the combined wieght of the government
and national; media harassing them.
> Repeat after me.... "He took his own life and no one made him do it".
> God.... northern Europeans are the only humans that worry constantly
about
> their guilt in every affair. No other group cares a whit about doing
> "wrongs" to others so much.
But but we're so good at it, of course we only got that way through
oppressing anybody else who showed a whit of ability, for which we are
now suitably remorseful.
Even as we speak I'm drinking a cup of tea, listening to Robert Johnson
on the cd player and wondering wether to start reading the copy of
Hellers closing time I picked up on saturday or reread "the catcher in
the rye".
>
>> It's not so much the suicide the inquiry is looking at
>> but how the govenment behaved, a inquiry all citizens would welcome. I
>> would have thought a republican like yourself would have welcomed any
>> exposure to government interference, for example if an intelligence
>> operative was outed into the public domain, a treasonable offence I
>> believe >;-)
>> Hows the inquiry into that going >;-)
>
> It's still going on. Hard to say what will happen. It's not a
treasonable
> offense. What's so galling about it is that a great number of
Washington
> insiders have come forward and said that everyone and their brother
knew the
> lady worked for the CIA, including every enemy agent in town. She was
> "outted" at all.
Hmm I thought I rember a bill being passed years ago making it a
definite no no.
And so that makes it ok? of course people in the know might have
guessed that she worked for the C.I.A. hell diplomat is just a fancy word
for spy, let's face it if you emptied the embassies of people who worked
for the intelligence services you probably wouldn't even be left with the
cleaning ladies.
If this had been a leak from say the N.Y. times you would be very
rightly screaming for blood. This woman worked for your government in the
second oldest profession gathering intelligence to try and give her
Country the best possible advantage, is it to much to ask that she get's
at least a sembalence of protection from the government she works for,
let alone the people she has contacted who would have been dropped in the
shit up to their necks wether they had provided information or not. You
do have to wonder if this would affect people contacting the agency if
they were worried they'd be left like this for no other reason than a
political snit at home.
>
>
>> Hmm I read somewhere that 30% of your lot didn't know that the Earth
>> went around the sun,
>
> Oh, please, if the earth really went around the sun we'd have seen the
> backside of the sun by now and we haven't. What balderdash.
Ok now it's your job to take over the martial arts physics board, a more
fitting punishment I couldn't dream up.
>
>>Mind you having seen my fellow countrymen I sometimes wonder if I
>> can apply for a change os species humans really depress me.
>
> You just need to get out of the fog, rain, etc., that drives men crazy.
> Look at the utter tripe you're posting about Kelly.... a sure sign that
> you're beyond help.
Nah I'll just stay nicely medicated, (well I would if I could afford
to.)
Mike Sigman
>
> >
> > You're still blaming the other people for "pressure" as being the
> source of
> > the suicide. Maybe he was depressed because he couldn't get erections
> > anymore or he was having problems at home or he was always unstable,
> > etc..... and the "pressure" was just normal. In other words, you've
> > already assigned guilt to someone else when the man wilfully took his
> own
> > life!!!!
> Well all the evidence revealed so far has been of a respected happy
> family man, something pushed him over the edge.
>
You need to understand this.... ultimately, he had a decision that only he
could make. To take his life or to not take his life. He chose to take it.
It was his choice. If the government and the news media are going to be
forbidden from "ever putting pressure on someone", I'm going to laugh my
backside off. He may also have told a fib to the media and gotten
distraught about it and killed himself. There are so many possibilities
that it's silly to try to hang the blame on Blair's government. It's an
absolute joke, even though I personally think Blair AND the Labour boys AND
the Tories are all jokes.
> > Most people simply resign if the job's too much for them.
> Yup, and most people don't have the combined wieght of the government
> and national; media harassing them.
>
Please. It happens all the time. Particularly in Britain. Look at all
your scandals, etc., that all your tabloids report weekly. If pressure by
the gov and the media was the cause of suicide, there wouldn't be human life
left in the UK.
> Even as we speak I'm drinking a cup of tea, listening to Robert Johnson
> on the cd player and wondering wether to start reading the copy of
> Hellers closing time I picked up on saturday or reread "the catcher in
> the rye".
"Catcher in the Rye" is too passe. Do the othery.
>
>
What's so galling about it is that a great number of
> Washington
> > insiders have come forward and said that everyone and their brother
> knew the
> > lady worked for the CIA, including every enemy agent in town. She was
> > "outted" at all.
> Hmm I thought I rember a bill being passed years ago making it a
> definite no no.
> And so that makes it ok?
It's hard to be sued for outting a prostitute when everyone in town has had
her.
> If this had been a leak from say the N.Y. times you would be very
> rightly screaming for blood.
Not me. This is the sort of thing I don't care a whit for.
> >
> >> Hmm I read somewhere that 30% of your lot didn't know that the Earth
> >> went around the sun,
> >
> > Oh, please, if the earth really went around the sun we'd have seen the
> > backside of the sun by now and we haven't. What balderdash.
> Ok now it's your job to take over the martial arts physics board, a more
> fitting punishment I couldn't dream up.
With my intuitive grasp of the subject and my grandmaster's degree, it
should be a snap.
Mike
weirdwolf
$I06.1577509@attbi_s01:
There is a difference between a tabloid "newspaper" and I use the term
very loosely outing some minor celebrity for shagging a prostitute whilst
snorting coke and being accused of being a fraud, loosing your job and
being attacked by the prime minister.
The celeb is likely to get kudos and maybe even a boost to a flagging
career. Kelly lost the job that he loved and with his reputation in
tatters was hardly likely to get another apart from maybe cleaning out
the cludgies at the house of parliment.
Celeb's can usually afford that kind of treatment,not as though I'm
condoning it. Tabloids aren't taken seriously by anybody ith half a
brain.
>> Even as we speak I'm drinking a cup of tea, listening to Robert
Johnson
>> on the cd player and wondering wether to start reading the copy of
>> Hellers closing time I picked up on saturday or reread "the catcher in
>> the rye".
>
> "Catcher in the Rye" is too passe. Do the othery.
Huh? I'm afraid my knowledge of American fiction is limited to endless
hours of being forced to read Steinbek at Senior school.
I'm actualy talking about this in another group, I reread catcher a
while back and I had the horrible thought that I was probably now at
Holden's parents age rather than when I first read it and I was more like
his age..
>>
>>
> What's so galling about it is that a great number of
>> Washington
>> > insiders have come forward and said that everyone and their brother
>> knew the
>> > lady worked for the CIA, including every enemy agent in town. She
was
>> > "outted" at all.
>> Hmm I thought I rember a bill being passed years ago making it a
>> definite no no.
>> And so that makes it ok?
>
> It's hard to be sued for outting a prostitute when everyone in town has
had
> her.
But it's more gentlemanly to look the other way when she's performing a
service for her community.
>
>> If this had been a leak from say the N.Y. times you would be very
>> rightly screaming for blood.
>
> Not me. This is the sort of thing I don't care a whit for.
>
>
>> >
>> >> Hmm I read somewhere that 30% of your lot didn't know that the
Earth
>> >> went around the sun,
>> >
>> > Oh, please, if the earth really went around the sun we'd have seen
the
>> > backside of the sun by now and we haven't. What balderdash.
>> Ok now it's your job to take over the martial arts physics board, a
more
>> fitting punishment I couldn't dream up.
>
> With my intuitive grasp of the subject and my grandmaster's degree, it
> should be a snap.
>
Woohoo hey we've found a suck... I mean an esteamed member of the RMA
community to do the fun task of solving the elbow break force/pressure
problem.
Mike Sigman
> Woohoo hey we've found a suck... I mean an esteamed member of the RMA
> community to do the fun task of solving the elbow break force/pressure
> problem.
Ha. Obviously I am the superior man... I never even looked at that thread.
There's depths to which I will not stoop.
Mike
weirdwolf
5.201622@attbi_s03:
Really?
Well I guess at your age getting to close to the ground is a bit like
showing the chicken the cooking pot >;-Þ
Robert Low
Mike Sigman <mikes...@bresnan.net> wrote:
> England has
>dumbed itself down to the level of the States
That's a bit harsh!
Richard Lancashire
> You're still blaming the other people for "pressure" as being the source of
> the suicide.
It looks like you're the one hung up on the suicide; I don't know how
the press is treating it in the US, the Hutton enquiry is about the
government's behaviour (including, incidentally, whether it was
correct to bring the whole weight of the PR machine against
individuals). No-one is arguing that he was forced into it. Read that
sentence again.
The main reason that the suicide became such a big issue was that a
government source (junior minister or something?) going on record that
the doctor was a "Walter Mitty character" on the same day as his
funeral. Perhaps you see nothing inappropriate about that.
Cheers
Rich
Mike Sigman
"Richard Lancashire" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ad6f59.04012...@posting.google.com...
> "Mike Sigman" <mikes...@bresnan.net> wrote
>
> > You're still blaming the other people for "pressure" as being the source
of
> > the suicide.
>
> It looks like you're the one hung up on the suicide; I don't know how
> the press is treating it in the US, the Hutton enquiry is about the
> government's behaviour (including, incidentally, whether it was
> correct to bring the whole weight of the PR machine against
> individuals). No-one is arguing that he was forced into it. Read that
> sentence again.
Well certainly if you read the earlier part of the thread, Ted is arguing
exactly what I've seen time and again in the British press... the idea is
that the poor sod was pressured so badly by the government that he HAD to
commit suicide. I.e., the blame for the suicide rests either with the
government or the pressure started by false reporting from the BBC. The
idea that the pressure *forced* him is oft-reiterated.
>
> The main reason that the suicide became such a big issue was that a
> government source (junior minister or something?) going on record that
> the doctor was a "Walter Mitty character" on the same day as his
> funeral. Perhaps you see nothing inappropriate about that.
Walter Mitty happens to be one of my heroes, dammit. Well, I may have read
about the comment, maybe not, but I'm not sure that's all there is to the
initiating circumstance.
Mike
Mike Sigman
"Robert Low" <mtx...@linux.services.coventry.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:bv550v$io5$1...@sunbeam.coventry.ac.uk...
>
> Mike Sigman <mikes...@bresnan.net> wrote:
> > England has
> >dumbed itself down to the level of the States
>
> That's a bit harsh!
You'll get used to being that dumb. It comes with being politically
correct and assuming everyone is indeed "equal", so what you do is cut the
level of education down to the lowest level so that even the stupid can
become PhD's. Some of your PM's will fit nicely already, thanks.
Mike
Robert Low
Mike Sigman <mikes...@bresnan.net> wrote:
>"Robert Low" <mtx...@linux.services.coventry.ac.uk> wrote in message
>> > England has
>> >dumbed itself down to the level of the States
>> That's a bit harsh!
>You'll get used to being that dumb. It comes with being politically
>correct and assuming everyone is indeed "equal", so what you do is cut the
>level of education down to the lowest level so that even the stupid can
>become PhD's. Some of your PM's will fit nicely already, thanks.
We (as a nation, I mean---I'd like to dissociate myself
from the endeavour on a personal level) are trying hard.
But you have to admit, you guys set some pretty hard to
attain standards there.
Kirk Lawson
> China will solve it's Muslim problem by attacking some of the former SovUn
> 'stans'; the Pan-Asian War will start, we can retreat to Fortress America,
> and listen for the noise to stop before visiting over there again.
Problem is that we don't want China to get too powerful. That's be a
"bad thing" (tm).
Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
Kirk Lawson
> You keep wanting a Perry Mason Moment wherein Saddam confesses all in
> tearful repentance-
> *that's* what's not going to happen.
It's what I'd do if I were him.
Plea-bargain.
His life is literally on the line.
Chas
> > China will solve it's Muslim problem by attacking some of the former
SovUn
> > 'stans'; the Pan-Asian War will start, we can retreat to Fortress
America,
> > and listen for the noise to stop before visiting over there again.
> Problem is that we don't want China to get too powerful. That's be a
> "bad thing" (tm).
Well, we could always give them something to do in SEAsi......
nevermind.
c.
Chas
> > You keep wanting a Perry Mason Moment wherein Saddam confesses all in
> > tearful repentance-
> > *that's* what's not going to happen.
> It's what I'd do if I were him.
As an aside; that works with your Mom, but I wouldn't recommend it in a
court of law.
> Plea-bargain.
He has little or nothing to bargain with, or for.
> His life is literally on the line.
He has nothing left to negotiate but his pain.
Chas
Kirk Lawson
> Hmm I read somewhere that 30% of your lot didn't know that the Earth
> went around the sun,
I have it on good authority that the sun revolves around the earth.
Badger North
<mikes...@bresnan.net> wrote:
>There's depths to which I will not stoop.
Hold on, I thought you were an American... <d&r>
Mike Sigman
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kevc10htnlhi8p22l...@4ax.com...
OK, I'll go to those depths, but I just won't stoop, dammit.
Mike
mark goldberg
Britain has become so concerned with the
> rights of every twit that starts whining and crying that she's going down
> the tubes. In an effort to make everyone feel comfortable, England has
> dumbed itself down to the level of the States, nowadays.
>
> Mike
>
>
Yeah... the Israeli ambassador, invited to a National Museum of Sweden
where an event on 'genocide' - causes, prevention, etc- and who was
promised that there would be no surprises or grandstanding about the
middle east- was lead thru an exhibit and as reported:
Media coverage largely downplayed the exhibit's clear glorification of
genocide — a grave irony, given the theme of the conference. Media
reports instead suggested that the exhibit's meaning is open to broad
interpretation, or that it merely laments all Mideast bloodshed.
Absent from nearly all reports was the poetic
<http://www.makingdifferences.com/site/calendar.php?lang=en&id=20>text
accompanying the exhibit, submitted by the artists, which juxtaposes the
'beauty' of the red pool of blood upon the moral 'Snow-whiteness' of the
terrorist:
For the June 12 deaths of her brother, and her cousin... seemingly
innocent with universal non-violent character... Weeping bitterly, she
added: 'If our nation cannot realize its dream and the goals of the
victims, and live in freedom and dignity, then let the whole world be
erased'... Run away, then, you poor child... and the red looked
beautiful upon the white.
Here are three examples of the media's selective omission:
1) <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3406745.stm>BBC wrote: "Its
Israeli-born creator rejected the charge [of condoning violence], saying
the work had a message of openness and conciliation... 'I'm absolutely
opposed to suicide bombers', he added."
2)<http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/01/19/2003091986>
The New York Times News Service reports that one of the artists
explained: "I wanted to show how incomprehensible it is that a mother of
two — who is a lawyer no less — can do such a thing," she said,
apparently confusing the Haifa bombing with an attack last week by
another Palestinian woman.
3)<http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1125658,00.html>
The (UK) Observer spun the story 180-degrees, presenting Mazel — not the
Palestinian! — as the killer: Peaceful Swedes were nearly killed when
"an ambassador erupted in violent protest... [Mazel] ripped out
electrical wires, grabbed a spotlight and hurled it into a fountain,
causing it to short circuit and become a potential death trap."
Media coverage largely downplayed the exhibit's clear glorification of
genocide -- a grave irony, given the theme of the conference. Media
reports instead suggested that the exhibit's meaning is open to broad
interpretation, or that it merely laments all Mideast bloodshed.
The (UK) Observer spun the story 180-degrees, presenting Mazel -- not
the Palestinian! -- as the killer: Peaceful Swedes were nearly killed
when "an ambassador erupted in violent protest... [Mazel] ripped out
electrical wires, grabbed a spotlight and hurled it into a fountain,
causing it to short circuit and become a potential death trap."
By the way- they had a streaming video of the ambassador- who calmly
tipped over what appeared as a not plugged in lighting fixture.
Britain's concern for homicidists is touching...
churchill would vomit and chew his cigar in half if he saw what Britain
and Europe were doing to themselves today.
Mark
Badger North
<mikes...@bresnan.net> wrote:
>> >There's depths to which I will not stoop.
>>
>> Hold on, I thought you were an American... <d&r>
>
>OK, I'll go to those depths, but I just won't stoop, dammit.
BAHAHAHAHA!
Richard Lancashire
> Well certainly if you read the earlier part of the thread, Ted is arguing
> exactly what I've seen time and again in the British press... the idea is
> that the poor sod was pressured so badly by the government that he HAD to
> commit suicide. I.e., the blame for the suicide rests either with the
> government or the pressure started by false reporting from the BBC. The
> idea that the pressure *forced* him is oft-reiterated.
I've reread the thread and it really does seem something that you've
read into it. The closest Ted comes is saying that he was put in a
position where he felt that was his only option; which is most
certainly not the same as saying he was forced to do anything. Poor
judgement is poor judgement, after all.
I certainly agree with you that it was his free choice; the morality
of directing the full power of a state's PR machine (or any powerful
organisation, for that matter) against one of its own employees for
not towing the management line is a different issue.
I feel that there is a swing towards the less-desirable aspects of
American life, but for me it's the Blair government's habit (of which
this was only one example) of defending policies by ad hominem; the
issues are not addressed, the people representing the issues are
attacked and ridiculed. In this example, not once was evidence
presented by either side; it became Evil Tyrant Blair vs. Mad
Scientist Kelly.
This reduces government to the soap opera level that US politics *at
its worst* can be, and also turns people off voting. Why waste
something as valuable as a vote on a caberet performance? :P
Cheers
Rich
caterbro
there won't be a pan asian war- just brushfires patted out by the
chinese, who will annull(sic) our missile capability, take taiwan, unify
and annex korea and bring japan into the co-prosperity sphere.
the middle east is about oil, nothing else- china is the threat, the only threat,
and there ain't nothing to be done about but make nice to the UN and hope
they back us up.
carl;
caterbro
> He has little or nothing to bargain with, or for.
his silence. there is no way they can let the man talk in public.
they are, i'd bet my left nut, right this minute, negotiating a way
to keep him mum and get a show trial. they're hoping he'll get
'ill', ala Pinochet, but the old buzzard is tough meat.
its not an interrogation, its a bargaining table in there, make no
mistake.
> > His life is literally on the line.
>
> He has nothing left to negotiate but his pain.
why would he care? old man- older than you, even, done all he
cared to and made his play- he knows death is nigh; if i were him,
i'd be waiting for nothing but political martyrdom.
carl
>
> Chas
>
Mike Sigman
"Richard Lancashire" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ad6f59.04012...@posting.google.com...
>
> read into it. The closest Ted comes is saying that he was put in a
> position where he felt that was his only option; which is most
> certainly not the same as saying he was forced to do anything. Poor
> judgement is poor judgement, after all.
OK, although I'm semantically playing with the word "forced", when you say
"he felt that was his only option", we're beginning to converge. What he
"felt", etc., is a logically poor thing to try to blame on the government.
His suicide is therefore being blamed on the government. The fact that the
man committed suicide and the government is being put on trial for it is a
joke.
>
> I certainly agree with you that it was his free choice; the morality
> of directing the full power of a state's PR machine (or any powerful
> organisation, for that matter) against one of its own employees for
> not towing the management line is a different issue.
Please. "Full Power"? Now it's you being lose with the meaning of words.
>
> I feel that there is a swing towards the less-desirable aspects of
> American life, but for me it's the Blair government's habit (of which
> this was only one example) of defending policies by ad hominem; the
> issues are not addressed, the people representing the issues are
> attacked and ridiculed. In this example, not once was evidence
> presented by either side; it became Evil Tyrant Blair vs. Mad
> Scientist Kelly.
Yes, this is very much like the Democratic administrations in this country.
But then, Blair's a liberal, so you've made your point. Notice how Clinton,
whom the Brits loved so much, was quick to ruin the reputations of every
woman who came forward against him. Quite Blair-like, I agree. :^)
>
> This reduces government to the soap opera level that US politics *at
> its worst* can be, and also turns people off voting. Why waste
> something as valuable as a vote on a caberet performance? :P
Because of one phrase you should always remember..."the Masses are Asses".
The cabaret performances are to sway and please the common man. Which is
why England has so many tabloids, BTW. *Someone* is buying them, or they
wouldn't be in business. :^)
Mike
Chas
> there won't be a pan asian war- just brushfires patted out by the
> chinese, who will annull(sic) our missile capability, take taiwan, unify
> and annex korea and bring japan into the co-prosperity sphere.
They're looking at Islam from SEAsia to Mongolia- the whole of Western China
is threatened by them.
Whatever their own political agenda in Beijing, the reality is that they
have a threat to the West for a thousand years.
That isn't even to speak of the conflict between Islam and the Hindus. China
has trusted the great deserts and mountain ranges to guard that border, but
this time it will come from within as much as from the outside. Islam is
growing in China itself.
> the middle east is about oil, nothing else- china is the threat, the only
threat,
> and there ain't nothing to be done about but make nice to the UN and hope
> they back us up.
The UN is divided along political lines, not religious. The war in the ME
isn't about oil in the least- it may be one of the benefits of whipping
them, but it isn't the motivation at all.
With few exceptions, this is a war waged without regard to geography or
simple political divisions all the way from Morocco to the Filipines.
Chas
Chas
> > He has little or nothing to bargain with, or for.
> his silence. there is no way they can let the man talk in public.
'They' who?
Americans? Hell, there are no secrets left untold- who cares what
compromises we made with him before he became both intolerable and a signal
lesson to the rest of them?
> they are, i'd bet my left nut, right this minute, negotiating a way
> to keep him mum and get a show trial. they're hoping he'll get
> 'ill', ala Pinochet, but the old buzzard is tough meat.
cool.
> its not an interrogation, its a bargaining table in there, make no
> mistake.
About right now, he's standing in line and marching to the tune. He's an old
time torturer, so he knows what the options are. There are ways to put him
into screaming agony without leaving a mark on him- who cares if he
complains?
> > He has nothing left to negotiate but his pain.
> why would he care? old man- older than you, even, done all he
> cared to and made his play- he knows death is nigh; if i were him,
> i'd be waiting for nothing but political martyrdom.
The contemplation of agony that is running around in Saddam Hussein's head
must be sufficient to bargain over 30 secs. The only hope he has is to be
handled by civilized people who may be inattentive enough to let him commit
suicide.
Personally, there's nothing he has to say that would keep me from turning
him over to the Kurdish women.
I don't even care to watch what they'd do to him.
Chas
TravIsGod
>everything, has it? You moron.
Neither has the Bush Administration, surely.
>
>Why don't you tell us what the unspecified materials were, since you already
>know everything?
I think I just did.
>One of the interesting little fights that's going on right now is the
>misquotes attributed to David Kay.
One of the interesting fights is you trying to keep some loose grasp on sanity
in the face of crushing defeat at my hands.
>Which is what I keep telling
>you, numbnuts. You can't even read.
You will be keeping the hope alive that they'll be found somewhere sometime by
somebody...just give you a few fking thousand years.
IOW, you're betting you'll die before you admit that you were WRONG.
>No
>one with any inside knowledge and no intelligence agency in the world is
>dumb enough to think there were absolutely NO WMD's ...
You are dumb enough. People like you - there's plenty of them - dumb enough to
believe just about anything.
>'m thinking about voting for
>Lieberman as a write-in.
>
>Mike
I think that with your low intellect, you could be unarmed and STILL very
dangerous.
Trav
TravIsGod
>chinese, who will annull(sic) our missile capability, take taiwan, unify
>and annex korea and bring japan into the co-prosperity sphere.
>
Nein. Japan and China are historical enemies. Won't happen.
Japan will militarize to counter China. If China made aggressive moves within
the Korean peninsula, the instability would greatly upset both Japan and India,
two large nuclear powers.
>the middle east is about oil, nothing else- china is the threat, the only
>threat,
>and there ain't nothing to be done about but make nice to the UN and hope
>they back us up.
>
>carl;
Fuck the UN.
Trav
Chas
> >Well that settles it, then...... Syria has never lied about anything and
> >everything, has it? You moron.
> Neither has the Bush Administration, surely.
ok.
Quick; you have to choose sides- who ya gonna dance with, bubbelah?
(hint; go with the guys that don't want to murder you if you won't convert)
Chas
caterbro
> >chinese, who will annull(sic) our missile capability, take taiwan, unify
> >and annex korea and bring japan into the co-prosperity sphere.
> >
>
> Nein. Japan and China are historical enemies. Won't happen.
China will retake taiwan and japan will have to knuckle under or get bombed again.
taiwan is the lynchpin to trade in the region; that is why the US has more hardware
offshore than Wanamakers.
when China solidifies its military position in space, it will negate the advantage the
US has, and then we'll see the fur fly. add that to the FANTASTIC trade imbalance
and china's slow, sure domination of the area economically, and the US will be in deep
shit.
> Japan will militarize to counter China. If China made aggressive moves within
> the Korean peninsula, the instability would greatly upset both Japan and India,
> two large nuclear powers.
india has the middleeast to worry about, zero natural resources to exploit and
no particular interest in world domination. they will partner up with the biggest
dog around.
japan ain't got squat. china could sink japan without blinkng an eye right now-
they can afford a few cities.
> >the middle east is about oil, nothing else- china is the threat, the only
> >threat,
> >and there ain't nothing to be done about but make nice to the UN and hope
> >they back us up.
> >
> >carl;
>
> Fuck the UN.
whatever- we sure aren't going to do ourselves any favors by pissing off the
world and getting locked into a disastrous trade game with China. we need multilateral
trading options
carl
> Trav
Kirk Lawson
A public confession that he did indeed have WMD's and had buried them
all in the desert (but I don't remember where) or gave them to his
sister-in-law's fifth cousin who hid them in Buttscratchistan would be
*just* what the doctor ordered for Bush.
More then worth his sorry life.
kalis
> "TravIsGod" <trav...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040126135407...@mb-m19.aol.com...
> > >
> > >WMD in Syria: Kay
> > >
> > >Ex-inspector says Iraq sent 'lot of material'
> > >
> > >By AP
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > A claim which Syria has flatly denied and there is no evidence to
> substantiate.
> >
>
> Well that settles it, then...... Syria has never lied about anything and
> everything, has it? You moron.
And the compelling part is...still no evidence to substantiate.
Mike
Mike Sigman
"kalis" <mike...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e2e0da76.04012...@posting.google.com...
> > > A claim which Syria has flatly denied and there is no evidence to
> > substantiate.
> > >
> >
> > Well that settles it, then...... Syria has never lied about anything and
> > everything, has it? You moron.
>
> And the compelling part is...still no evidence to substantiate.
>
The interesting part of this "there was intelligence but no evidence to
substantiate" is that it's one of the reasons given in testimony about why
we didn't react to intercepts indicating that the Japanese were about to
attack Pearl Harbor.
Mike
caterbro
> They're looking at Islam from SEAsia to Mongolia- the whole of Western China
> is threatened by them.
> Whatever their own political agenda in Beijing, the reality is that they
> have a threat to the West for a thousand years.
> That isn't even to speak of the conflict between Islam and the Hindus. China
> has trusted the great deserts and mountain ranges to guard that border, but
> this time it will come from within as much as from the outside. Islam is
> growing in China itself.
bah humbug. i've though about this argument of your's alot, and i think i'm
ready to beard you on it.
politics and economics decide the world's trends; religion is a distant third.
there ain't no war by Islam, anymore than there was a war by the Christians,
the jews,. the buddhists or anyone else. they're aren't bogeymen and it ain't
a millenial holy war. pish-tush
the rise in Islamism and violent unease is predicated by social necessity,
nothing more. old ways meet the new ways, and all that- when the pressures
of poverty, population, exploitation and modernization have been met, we'll
have, as we already do in many places, muslims and xtians, buddhists and
pagans saying howdy-do on the way to their places of worship.
> > the middle east is about oil, nothing else- china is the threat, the only
> threat,
> > and there ain't nothing to be done about but make nice to the UN and hope
> > they back us up.
>
> The UN is divided along political lines, not religious.
my point exactly. that religoius crap got left behind in the population boom and
the change in the world zeitgiest. like it or not, the world is modern, aware, and
not under the blighted darkness of religous mummery so much anymore, and
where it is, the light of day mollifies it.
you may trust that the bin-Saud reach for their wallets to solve problems and not
the Quran.
The war in the ME
> isn't about oil in the least- it may be one of the benefits of whipping
> them, but it isn't the motivation at all.
> With few exceptions, this is a war waged without regard to geography or
> simple political divisions all the way from Morocco to the Filipines.
there are all sorts of wars going on- the war on Al-quaeda is one, and blown
way, way out of proportion.
> Chas
>
caterbro
> "caterbro" <not...@notyetamartian.com> wrote
> > > He has little or nothing to bargain with, or for.
> > his silence. there is no way they can let the man talk in public.
>
> 'They' who?
> Americans? Hell, there are no secrets left untold- who cares what
> compromises we made with him before he became both intolerable and a signal
> lesson to the rest of them?
two reasons- 1) his expiation and extirpation in front of the world will likely cement
his freshly regained Arab loyalty into a unified front against us and 2) the
secrets are out, but there's nothing like hearing it from the horses mouth.
> Personally, there's nothing he has to say that would keep me from turning
> him over to the Kurdish women.
> I don't even care to watch what they'd do to him.
doesn't matter. they can't turn him loose- he'd find a way out. they can't hold him
forever- the worlds' awaiting. they can't off him; the worlds' awatching- lets see
what happens next.
> Chas
>
Chas
> politics and economics decide the world's trends; religion is a distant
third.
> there ain't no war by Islam, anymore than there was a war by the
Christians,
> the jews,. the buddhists or anyone else. they're aren't bogeymen and it
ain't
> a millenial holy war. pish-tush
That's your argument?
A milennia of fighting on every border they share with anyone else-
conquering as they go- self-identified as a 'holy war'?
Please
> the rise in Islamism and violent unease is predicated by social necessity,
> nothing more. old ways meet the new ways, and all that- when the pressures
> of poverty, population, exploitation and modernization have been met,
we'll
> have, as we already do in many places, muslims and xtians, buddhists and
> pagans saying howdy-do on the way to their places of worship.
Name one.
Other than US/Europe (the Great Satan); show me where the muslims are
getting along with anyone of another religion.
Would it be North Africa? Egypt? Anywhere bordering Israel? Pakistan,
SEAsia, Indonesia, the Filipines?Where?
> my point exactly. that religoius crap got left behind in the population
boom and
> the change in the world zeitgiest. like it or not, the world is modern,
aware, and
> not under the blighted darkness of religous mummery so much anymore, and
> where it is, the light of day mollifies it.
They're still stoning women for adultery, cutting off hands, shooting people
for fucking dancing and whatnot.
> you may trust that the bin-Saud reach for their wallets to solve problems
and not
> the Quran.
hell, the Saud's are holding on by the skin of their collective teeth
against the Islamofascists- their own Wahabi's are threatening the throne
all the time.
> there are all sorts of wars going on- the war on Al-quaeda is one, and
blown
> way, way out of proportion.
Yeah; 3,000 dead and a half-trillion in treasure- nothing special.
Chas
caterbro
> "caterbro" <not...@notyetamartian.com> wrote
> > politics and economics decide the world's trends; religion is a distant
> third.
> That's your argument?
> A milennia of fighting on every border they share with anyone else-
> conquering as they go- self-identified as a 'holy war'?
> Please
yeppers. the xtians did the same- fought bloody battles of conquest on
every border the had, the goths, the mongols, the middle kingdom, the
hindus and the musselmen. all the same. none of them spread like a
cancer of kindness, if that was what you were thinking.
the behavior that so offends you by muslims, i call the norm, and would
point out that they were rather genial in their conquest compared to some.
> > the rise in Islamism and violent unease is predicated by social necessity,
> > nothing more. old ways meet the new ways, and all that- when the pressures
> > of poverty, population, exploitation and modernization have been met,
> we'll
> > have, as we already do in many places, muslims and xtians, buddhists and
> > pagans saying howdy-do on the way to their places of worship.
>
> Name one.
> Other than US/Europe (the Great Satan);
that's the one. turkey comes to mind- georgia is getting there, and india, mother
of us all, managed a fairly congenial melting pot until the last 50 years or so- even
now, the muslim/hindu strife is decidely tribal rather than pandemic.
>> the blighted darkness of religous mummery so much anymore, and
> > where it is, the light of day mollifies it.
>
> They're still stoning women for adultery, cutting off hands, shooting people
> for fucking dancing and whatnot.
much as the christians in ethopia etc- atavisms, doomed to
wither.
> > there are all sorts of wars going on- the war on Al-quaeda is one, and
> blown
> > way, way out of proportion.
>
> Yeah; 3,000 dead and a half-trillion in treasure- nothing special.
you bet. happened 25 times over in rwanda and nobody cared- happened in
afganistan for twenty years and nobody cared; its happenig this instant in a
half a dozen spots and nobody cares- all different, islam or no islam.
carl
> Chas
>
Richard Lancashire
> OK, although I'm semantically playing with the word "forced", when you say
> "he felt that was his only option", we're beginning to converge. What he
> "felt", etc., is a logically poor thing to try to blame on the government.
> His suicide is therefore being blamed on the government. The fact that the
> man committed suicide and the government is being put on trial for it is a
> joke.
That's the whole point; it's only you who contends that that is what
the government is on trial for!
> > I certainly agree with you that it was his free choice; the morality
> > of directing the full power of a state's PR machine (or any powerful
> > organisation, for that matter) against one of its own employees for
> > not towing the management line is a different issue.
>
> Please. "Full Power"? Now it's you being lose with the meaning of words.
What would you call it?
> > I feel that there is a swing towards the less-desirable aspects of
> > American life, but for me it's the Blair government's habit (of which
> > this was only one example) of defending policies by ad hominem;
>
> Yes, this is very much like the Democratic administrations in this country.
Very much like all administrations, and all oppositions. Don't pretend
your friends' crap doesn't stink as much as everyone else's... :P
> But then, Blair's a liberal, so you've made your point. Notice how Clinton,
> whom the Brits loved so much, was quick to ruin the reputations of every
> woman who came forward against him. Quite Blair-like, I agree. :^)
And your Republicans are above all this sort of thing? Just for the
record.
> Because of one phrase you should always remember..."the Masses are Asses".
> The cabaret performances are to sway and please the common man. Which is
> why England has so many tabloids, BTW. *Someone* is buying them, or they
> wouldn't be in business. :^)
At least we also go to the bother of printing newspapers that *aren't*
tabloids on this side of the pond. ;)
Cheers
Rich
Mike Sigman
"Richard Lancashire" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ad6f59.04012...@posting.google.com...
>
> > OK, although I'm semantically playing with the word "forced", when you
say
> > "he felt that was his only option", we're beginning to converge. What
he
> > "felt", etc., is a logically poor thing to try to blame on the
government.
> > His suicide is therefore being blamed on the government. The fact that
the
> > man committed suicide and the government is being put on trial for it is
a
> > joke.
>
> That's the whole point; it's only you who contends that that is what
> the government is on trial for!
>
Ah.... so if Kelly hadn't committed suicide there would still be a
commission, then? I doubt it. The government was blamed for leaking
Kelly's name and the BBC was blamed (on the other side) for printing a false
story.... neither of those issues would have gone to investigatory
commission if Kelly hadn't committed suicide. The dishonoured side in the
report will bear the brunt of Kelly's suicide and you know it. And, BTW,
it looks like Blair gets off free on this one, according to what the Sun has
printed.
> > > I certainly agree with you that it was his free choice; the morality
> > > of directing the full power of a state's PR machine (or any powerful
> > > organisation, for that matter) against one of its own employees for
> > > not towing the management line is a different issue.
> >
> > Please. "Full Power"? Now it's you being lose with the meaning of
words.
>
> What would you call it?
Ah.... I'm to answer for your words, then?
>
> > > I feel that there is a swing towards the less-desirable aspects of
> > > American life, but for me it's the Blair government's habit (of which
> > > this was only one example) of defending policies by ad hominem;
> >
> > Yes, this is very much like the Democratic administrations in this
country.
>
> Very much like all administrations, and all oppositions. Don't pretend
> your friends' crap doesn't stink as much as everyone else's... :P
You don't follow the news in the US, do you? There's a hue and cry about
"double standard". The Democrats have always used pejoratives far more
than the Republicans, who pretend to be above the fray. Both sides play
their roles.
>
> > But then, Blair's a liberal, so you've made your point. Notice how
Clinton,
> > whom the Brits loved so much, was quick to ruin the reputations of every
> > woman who came forward against him. Quite Blair-like, I agree. :^)
>
> And your Republicans are above all this sort of thing? Just for the
> record.
For the record, Republicans pretend to avoid name-calling. Democrats revel
in it. I think one of the sources of the Great Hate for Bush (tm) is the
fact that Democrats were embarrassed mightily by the things Clinton was
caught in and they do all they can to paint Bush with the same brush. So
much so that it's become a hate campaign.
>
> > Because of one phrase you should always remember..."the Masses are
Asses".
> > The cabaret performances are to sway and please the common man. Which
is
> > why England has so many tabloids, BTW. *Someone* is buying them, or
they
> > wouldn't be in business. :^)
>
> At least we also go to the bother of printing newspapers that *aren't*
> tabloids on this side of the pond. ;)
You'll have to point me to one of them. I haven't had the pleasure. ;^)
Mike
Chas
> > A milennia of fighting on every border they share with anyone else-
> > conquering as they go- self-identified as a 'holy war'?
> > Please
> yeppers. the xtians did the same- fought bloody battles of conquest on
> every border the had, the goths, the mongols, the middle kingdom, the
> hindus and the musselmen. all the same. none of them spread like a
> cancer of kindness, if that was what you were thinking.
And, even if true- this time they're after *you*.
In the objective perspective, that may be historically precedented- but,
this time, the object of the exercise is *you*.
Not that I concede a similarity between Islam and any other religion on
earth.
> the behavior that so offends you by muslims, i call the norm, and would
> point out that they were rather genial in their conquest compared to some.
All well and good- except, this time the target is *you*.
> > Name one.
> > Other than US/Europe (the Great Satan);
> that's the one. turkey comes to mind-
Turkey is on the trembling edge of Islamic revolt
> georgia is getting there,
Georgia's in the midst of one as we speak
> and india, mother
> of us all, managed a fairly congenial melting pot until the last 50 years
or so- even
> now, the muslim/hindu strife is decidely tribal rather than pandemic.
Hogwash- it's been a religious war between Hindus and Muslims since they
met- regardless of tribal affiliations as well as extending to any other
religion other than Hindu.
> > They're still stoning women for adultery, cutting off hands, shooting
people
> > for fucking dancing and whatnot.
> much as the christians in ethopia etc- atavisms, doomed to
> wither.
The Muslims are killing and enslaving the Christians, and the animists- and
I know of no Christians that are stoning people, cutting off their hands and
whatnot.
> > Yeah; 3,000 dead and a half-trillion in treasure- nothing special.
> you bet. happened 25 times over in rwanda and nobody cared- happened in
> afganistan for twenty years and nobody cared; its happenig this instant in
a
> half a dozen spots and nobody cares- all different, islam or no islam.
And Rwanda, Afghanistan and elsewhere had/have the same options as we do;
fight or submit.
I didn't notice *you* running off to avenge the Bamiyan Buddhas, fight for
the Kashmir, free the slaves in the Sudan, go fight for the Hutus/Tutsis,
help the Copts in Egypt, protect the non-Muslims in Indonesia, free the
kidnapped victims of the Moros in the Filipines.
I mean- why are you never on the side of your own? It was *your* neighbors
bombed and killed- your buildings razed, your treasure lost.
Objectively considering Islam in the light of scholarly analysis is all fine
and dandy- until it's *you* that's next on the list for extermination.
Chas
mark goldberg
>>
> Yeah... the Israeli ambassador, invited to a National Museum of Sweden
> where an event on 'genocide' - causes, prevention, etc- and who was
> promised that there would be no surprises or grandstanding about the
> middle east- was lead thru an exhibit and as reported:
and I know it's O.T. as such, but there was a very well done critique of
the stupid ugly art exhibit, and the stupid, ugly, reporting- here
corrected beautifully.
Mark
----------------
When the battle over artistic freedom goes over the edge
By James Lileks
Everyone talks about insufferably pretentious art, but no one does
anything about it. Until now.
Perhaps you read the story: Zvi Mazel, the Israeli ambassador to Sweden,
shows up at an art gallery and comes across an installation called "Snow
White and the Madness of Truth." Picture a rectangular pool of blood-red
water and a tiny boat bearing the picture of Hanadi Jaradat, a woman who
murdered 21 people in Haifa last October.
Swedish artists Gunilla Skoeld Feiler, left, and Israeli born Dror
Feiler stand behind their restored art installation, 'Snow White and the
Madness of Truth', at the courtyard of the Museum of National
Antiquities in Stockholm
The artist wanted a reaction? He got one. News reports made it sound as
if the ambassador rampaged through a gallery, knocking over waiters and
patrons, yelling for vengeance. Not really. Swedish TV covered the
event; the evening news showed the ambassador unplugged the lights
around the display without saying a word. Then he took one of the
spotlights and threw it into the red-colored water. Outraged, yes. But
hardly unhinged.
"A pool of blood, of my brothers," the ambassador snapped, "and you tell
me to do nothing?" Next question.
As the ambassador left the hall, one of his associates asked,
plaintively: "Have you read it?" He meant the poem that accompanied the
exhibit. Like much modern art, "Snow White" needed a text to explain
itself, or it would just look like someone threw food dye in the wading
pool. The poem laid out the bomber's motivation: She killed "for the
June 12 deaths of her brother, and her cousin," who were "killed in an
encounter with the Israeli security forces."
That's a kind way of saying her brother was at the house of her cousin
Salah Jaradat, who was head of the Islamic Jihad in Jenin. Until the IDF
showed up, anyway.
The artist, Dror Feiler, is an Israeli-born Jew now living in Sweden. He
insists he's against suicide bombing, which is nice to know. You can see
how someone might mistake a pool of blood with a picture of a smiling
terrorist as something less than total condemnation of the intifada.
Pictures of the victims? No. Pictures of the devastation? Of course not.
Too literal. What counts is the existential mystery, the acte gratuit,
the impenetrable constructs of oppression and religion that we can roll
around in our mouths all day because we don't have to worry that someone
will come into our coffeehouse and blow herself up. Yet.
How did the artist feel? Right after the ambassador's spontaneous
criticism, Feiler addressed the gallery patrons. "He sabotaged our art,"
Feiler said, "and he showed how the democratic thoughts of Israel are."
Mr. Feiler no doubt prefers the democratic thoughts of Arafat, Hamas and
the rest.
He was clutching a saxophone as he made his remarks, and for the sake of
the Swedes one can only hope he didn't use it. Here's what Feiler wrote
about his music: "As a new dimension and complement to the orderly
dialectics of classical Marxism it uses the theory of complexity: a
method of complications and implications as an antithesis to the
dialectic method of restricted sequence of cause and effect."
Translation: You can't dance to it, and it makes dogs leave the room. It
fits with "Snow White." Feiler is one of those modern artists who cannot
paint a simple picture, but spend all day in cafes smoking furiously and
cooking up grand proposals for installations that recontextualize the
gender messages inherent in postwar kitchen appliances.
Good art makes some people mad, of course. Can't please everyone. But
just because some outraged traditionalists protested "The Rite of
Spring" doesn't mean that you're Stravinsky if someone calls your work
offensive dreck. And "Snow White" was offensive dreck. It's pretentious
nonsense from a culture that's played out and lost, a culture that
treats unhinged killers as tragic heroines.
Feiler says he was struck by the paleness of Hanadi's face, and how it
contrasted with the color of blood. Red contrasts with white? Who knew?
What clever artists we have these days. Perhaps next time Feiler can
contrast, say, evil and innocence, and tell us where he stands on the
matter.
You can imagine him scoffing at that request: "What, do I have to draw
you a picture?"
TravIsGod
>> Neither has the Bush Administration, surely.
>
>ok.
>Quick; you have to choose sides- who ya gonna dance with, bubbelah?
>(hint; go with the guys that don't want to murder you if you won't convert)
>
>Chas
WTF does that matter?
We are not prosecuting a war against Islam by invading Iraq.
We are in a hegemonic campaign to defend our currency, and more deeply, our
access to the region 10 years from majority oil supply.
Trav
Chas
> and I know it's O.T. as such, but there was a very well done critique of
I find their ire less compelling, knowing these are precisely the same ilk
of art critics that eulogized 'Piss Christ', 'Elephant Madonna' and any
other blasphemous, offensive, iconoclastic submission, offensive to a whole
group of people.
It's always funny to me where people will draw lines and decide to be
offended.
Chas
TravIsGod
>> Nein. Japan and China are historical enemies. Won't happen.
>
>China will retake taiwan and japan will have to knuckle under or get bombed
>again.
Japan is not knuckling under anything.
Japan kicked China's ass the last time and would do so again. Japan is just a
better nation than China.
>
>taiwan is the lynchpin to trade in the region; that is why the US has more
>hardware
>offshore than Wanamakers.
No. Taiwan is a plot of land which has more symbolic than strategic value.
It's like West Berlin, a showpiece.
>when China solidifies its military position in space, it will negate the
>advantage the
>US has, and then we'll see the fur fly. add that to the FANTASTIC trade
>imbalance
>and china's slow, sure domination of the area economically, and the US will
>be in deep
>shit.
Unlikely unless China gets access to oil. They cannot grow their economy
without power generation. Additionally, without an increasing population base,
growth is infeasible.
>india has the middleeast to worry about, zero natural resources to exploit
>and
>no particular interest in world domination. they will partner up with the
>biggest
>dog around.
India has 1B people and one of the top economies on earth. They too have a
space program. If anything, their model of growth and progress has mirrored
China's, if a decade behind them.
>
>japan ain't got squat. china could sink japan without blinkng an eye right
>now-
>they can afford a few cities.
What? You seriously overestimate China and underestimate Japan. Japan has
enough nuclear material and weapons technology to annihilate China. Certainly
you aren't suggesting that China could VIABLY prosecute a nuclear war against a
nation such as Japan? Japan is the world #2 economy by most measures.
China's model is built around export of cheap goods. That's it. They have no
greater access to the fundamental resources in question than Japan does.
>
>whatever- we sure aren't going to do ourselves any favors by pissing off the
>world and getting locked into a disastrous trade game with China.
Trade game with China? We're a fucking importer. They're an exporter.
Without our money flowing in, they have jackshitnothing. Our currency has
already basically taken over the sphere and we keep garrisons in THREE separate
nations right in that little region.
China has its own problems. The most glaring is that they cannot control their
economy via this dictatorial anachronism called Communist fascism. It just
can't work.
Their OTHER problem is that they have iron population control in terms of
locking people out of access to this ILLUSION of wealth in China. 90% of
Chinese are fucking DIRT POOR, barely ekeing out basic sustenance. China is
not a land of opportunity...they are a land of old men trying to control
something that cannot be controlled this way. China is facing internal
revolution before they have the balls to go after Taiwan. They have probably
100m excess young males (because people preferred boys to girls under the
childbearing caps) without work and without enough hoes to go around. That is
a recipe for disaster.
>we need multilateral
>trading options
>
>carl
Listen. Before China gets its ass off the ground, India and other nations
already have ANOTHER billion disposible people willing to work in toxic
factories producing plastic junk.
India is in direct competition with China for the growth/wealth miracle that
the USA and Western nations got in the last century. CHINA is why India tested
nukes a few years ago. India does not see Pakistan as a true rival,
rightfully. China is the regional competitor. India does not need medium
range missile capability to strike Pakistan, carl.
It won't matter though. Before China or India can position themselves as a
threat, Peak Oil will cause supply shortages in energy and that will completely
end any ability of China or India to achieve what the West has. The West will
be hard pressed to hang onto what they've achieved in a supply-poor energy
environment. We got there first and it turned out that there isn't enough oil
supply for another 2B to live like we do.
Trav
TravIsGod
>> And the compelling part is...still no evidence to substantiate.
>>
>
>The interesting part of this "there was intelligence but no evidence to
>substantiate"
There was no intelligence. None on WMD being moved to Syria and none in your
ramblings on the subject.
There IS NO EVIDENCE that Iraq's SUPPOSED WMDs were moved to Syria prior to the
war.
Not only is such a suggestion illogical on its FACE, but there is also no
evidence, no suggestion, and flat denials by parties involved that such a
transfer took place.
Trav
TravIsGod
>ready to beard you on it.
>
>politics and economics decide the world's trends; religion is a distant
>third.
>there ain't no war by Islam, anymore than there was a war by the Christians,
>the jews,. the buddhists or anyone else. they're aren't bogeymen and it ain't
>
>a millenial holy war. pish-tush
>
>the rise in Islamism and violent unease is predicated by social necessity,
>nothing more.
I'm going to set you both straight.
There is nothing special going on here.
All you have to do is look at the history of Rome.
It rose, it fell. What took its place was a fundamentalist scourge. That is
Islam now. We are Rome now.
End of story. Islam is the barbarians at our gates. As our decadence and the
wealth gap between us and the rest of the world INCREASES (and Americans
continue to whine about not being rich enough and being middle class earning
$100K a year), the recourse of the slovenly, which is what the masses are, is
to turn to repression, misogyny, and fundamentalist superstition.
That is what HAPPENS. It's happened after the decay of EVERY world imperial
power.
Islam is a response to the globalization phenomenon, which is a curtain of
imperial hegemony for the profit of YOU and ME and the people on this
newsgroup, Roman citizens.
WE benefit. Don't fucking say that you don't benefit by the KILLING of Iraqis,
because you do. YOU benefit. Random iraqis probably won't. Oil supply will
flow here. It's OUR dollar, remember? Our central bank prints those dollars
for that shit, all the goods WE consume. WE consume 25% of world oil right
now. WE benefit.
So don't fucking cry and bitch and act surprised that some motherfuckers got so
resentful and jealous that they commandeered a couple jets and flew them into
buildings.
I guess none of you ever experienced this type of jealousy in your lives. When
you have something that is so far beyond what others have and they can never
have it, they hate you for it.
Trav
TravIsGod
>In the objective perspective, that may be historically precedented- but,
>this time, the object of the exercise is *you*.
So what?
I understand why they hate me. I understood why the other kids in all the
schools I ever went to hated me. Because I had something that they could never
have and my life was a helluva lot easier because of it.
I couldn't share my astounding intelligence with them, but we *could* share
some of our wealth.
There is no FUCKING REASON whatsoever for the level of consumption and waste in
American society.
*I* hate it. I think that thousands of Americans DESERVE to be killed brutally
because they are self-absorbed ASSHOLES who care about nothing other than
themselves. I mean, jeezus, I live in DC with about 4 million of their
paragons.
Fuck, does anyone here REALLY sympathize with the Romans!?!??! We all look at
the historical accounts and say "damn, what a bunch of arrogant, elitist, sick,
violent, perverted assholes" and we almost CHEER when those barbarians were
coming over the 7th hill and fucking Nero is fiddling while the city burns.
They had it coming to them.
That is US now, people...WE are Rome. They couldn't see themselves through the
eyes of others anymore than Americans can. Witness the shock and surprise at
911..."why us?" "what did we do?" "we're such nice people."
No, we're not. We're conquerors. Our government has taken it upon itself to
guarantee that we can live at a level of wealth far beyond what we "deserve" in
any objective sense, and to protect a hegemony that permits us to CONSUME a
quarter of world resources. And, Americans consider that a BIRTHRIGHT.
Go to some other NG and tell them that they should be ashamed at themselves for
driving an overly consumptive and polluting SUV and they'll likely sneer at you
and BRAG about how much gas it burns.
And you're fucking SHOCKED and AWED and whatnot when some of those who don't
even have the privilege of OWNING a car at all maybe would like to kill
Americans?
Trav
Chas
> We are not prosecuting a war against Islam by invading Iraq.
Sure we are; and Afghanistan too.
Now we have them split into chewable chunks.
We used Saddam as a demonstration project as well as a strategic move. He
was a secular Muslim leader, rather than a theocratist, so it was less
offensive to confront him than confronting an hereditary leader or a
religious leader.
> We are in a hegemonic campaign to defend our currency, and more deeply,
our
> access to the region 10 years from majority oil supply.
That's just a side benefit of having to deal with the jihad against the
Great Satan- they brought it to us, now we're going to kill them, mess up
their room and take their toys.
They should have just tried to get along like we offered the opportunity for
them to do.
Chas
Chas
> End of story. Islam is the barbarians at our gates. As our decadence and
the
> wealth gap between us and the rest of the world INCREASES (and Americans
> continue to whine about not being rich enough and being middle class
earning
> $100K a year), the recourse of the slovenly, which is what the masses are,
is
> to turn to repression, misogyny, and fundamentalist superstition.
The Islamic nations are hugely rich. If the wealth were distributed even as
unevenly as is here in the US, there would be no economic problems for them.
Saddam was hugely successful; the Saudi's are hugely successful, the
Kuwaitis, the Emirates- if their people are poverty stricken, it's not our
fault- we've spent a *lot* of money with them, after developing the industry
for them in the first place.
> Islam is a response to the globalization phenomenon, which is a curtain of
> imperial hegemony for the profit of YOU and ME and the people on this
> newsgroup, Roman citizens.
Islam is the continuation of a religion built on banditry and murder.
Mohammed was a bandit; the Companions were bandits- they've continued to be
bandits for 1300 years.
> So don't fucking cry and bitch and act surprised that some motherfuckers
got so
> resentful and jealous that they commandeered a couple jets and flew them
into
> buildings.
Then don't be surprised when we go kill a bunch of them for being assholes.
If it's their justified action to come kill a bunch of us, then it's our
justified action to go exterminate the motherfuckers and salt their ground.
> I guess none of you ever experienced this type of jealousy in your lives.
When
> you have something that is so far beyond what others have and they can
never
> have it, they hate you for it.
Fuck'em.
No need to be mad at us for the decadence and extravagance of their masters.
They tolerate rule by despots, thieves and murderers- let them clean up
their own backyard and stay out of ours- or don't whine about what happens
to them.
Chas
Chas
> *I* hate it. I think that thousands of Americans DESERVE to be killed
brutally
> because they are self-absorbed ASSHOLES who care about nothing other than
> themselves. I mean, jeezus, I live in DC with about 4 million of their
> paragons.
Long as you don't mind putting your boys up first, I trust the sincerity of
your position.
In fact; let's just sacrifice everybody that makes over $100K a year to
their jealousy and resentment. They obviously benefit most from the
exploitation of our Islamic Brothers in true Third World Solidarity, and I'm
sure you wouldn't mind the personal inconvenience in light of the exercise
of true justice and the extension of reparations for the treasure stolen in
your good name.
I applaud you sir.
Chas
caterbro
> > Islam is a response to the globalization phenomenon, which is a curtain of
> > imperial hegemony for the profit of YOU and ME and the people on this
> > newsgroup, Roman citizens.
>
> Islam is the continuation of a religion built on banditry and murder.
> Mohammed was a bandit; the Companions were bandits- they've continued to be
> bandits for 1300 years.
see- here's our own arguement neatly wrapped up.
Trav and i, being smart youngfellas, think the world is organized by
politics, money, and need
you, being a wise oldfella, seem to think that religion has some
impulse in it that can overcomwe these things.
we are right.
And, Marx was right- its the 21st century and there are 6 billion
people on the rock- religion is was people do when they have the
time, or what they use as an excuse when they are hungry.
> Fuck'em.
> No need to be mad at us for the decadence and extravagance of their masters.
> They tolerate rule by despots, thieves and murderers- let them clean up
> their own backyard and stay out of ours- or don't whine about what happens
> to them.
it a nutshell, they wouldn't have done it if we'd stayed out of THEIR backyards.
this whole situation is a reaction against the transition from imperialism to corporate
hegemony. we switched out one for the other, lieing out of both sides of our mouths
, and they noticed., every time they went to cooperate, modernize, secularize,
self-determin, we killed them- and they aren't getting fooled again.
so maybe its war- but i doubt it. all they want is a slice of the pie, and all this will
be academic.
carl
> Chas
>
caterbro
they get offended at the abrogation of other's speech- very simple,
very straight line.
chas, if you shew an installation of your leather work and some
local jebussfreak got offended by the pagan imagery and molested
your peices and knocked down your lighting, you'd be pissed too.
what the man did was flat out inexcusable; it was highly political,
far more political than that work of art, and just plain bad.
and Mark, i know the guy was an israeli, which makes him practically
a saint, but he was an asshole committing a fascist act.
Chas
> see- here's our own arguement neatly wrapped up.
> Trav and i, being smart youngfellas, think the world is organized by
> politics, money, and need
Those are the motivations with which you're most familiar- a reflection of
your training in the capitalist system.
> you, being a wise oldfella, seem to think that religion has some
> impulse in it that can overcomwe these things.
I simply see it as another motivation/organizational model for conflict-
it's not always a 'class struggle'.
Our assumption that the ME conflict is predicated on poverty or something is
a projection of our own motivations. In fact, the Islamists, themselves,
have always declared that it's a difference in morality; our decadence and
profligacy.
I just believe them a bit more credulously than you two stalwart
intellectuals, sophisticated beyond my provincial perspective.
> we are right.
> And, Marx was right- its the 21st century and there are 6 billion
> people on the rock- religion is was people do when they have the
> time, or what they use as an excuse when they are hungry.
That's too facile a dismissal for my tastes; an oversimplification- a means
to dismiss the question without due diligence.
> it a nutshell, they wouldn't have done it if we'd stayed out of THEIR
backyards.
Actually, Islam has always been preoccupied with coming into your backyard-
generally waving a sword and driving a coffle of slaves.
> this whole situation is a reaction against the transition from imperialism
to corporate
> hegemony. we switched out one for the other, lieing out of both sides of
our mouths
> , and they noticed., every time they went to cooperate, modernize,
secularize,
> self-determin, we killed them- and they aren't getting fooled again.
Poop.
They were a bunch of camel jockies when we discovered a resource for them,
developed it for them, gave it to them as a gift, and continue in the
largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world to them.
> so maybe its war- but i doubt it. all they want is a slice of the pie, and
all this will
> be academic.
They are amongst the richest and most decadent people in the world.
You think Saudi Arabia didn't get their fair share of the hypothetical pie?
or Kuwait? or the Emirates? or Iraq?
They live in unimaginable luxury; all modcons.
Unless you're exhibiting some sympathy for their poor downtrodden subjects,
laboring in poverty and distress as they see their resources looted by their
own governments.
In which case you probably support the overthrow of Saddam- neh?
Chas
Chas
> chas, if you shew an installation of your leather work and some
> local jebussfreak got offended by the pagan imagery and molested
> your peices and knocked down your lighting, you'd be pissed too.
I do/did quite a lot of liturgical art, and have had the most rabid
hatemongers I've ever seen show up to get frisky. I managed an art gallery
in an old synagogue, and got the weirdest people you've ever seen coming by
to spew at me.
The only people offended by my pagan imagery, have been the geeks that want
to quarrel about my renderings of the elvish tongue and suchlike bullshit. I
did a pair of atheme, just for fun, and had fat women with braids going
apoplectic.
Jesusfreeks want to shake your hand and feed you pie.
> what the man did was flat out inexcusable; it was highly political,
> far more political than that work of art, and just plain bad.
We have a saying; "It's Art! ...but that's all"
I find the whole event to be more performance art than anything else- great
theatre concept.
> and Mark, i know the guy was an israeli, which makes him practically
> a saint, but he was an asshole committing a fascist act.
Art critics are always like that.
I would think that the artist would be overjoyed at having provoked such a
signal response to such a casual display of studio technique. I think
photographers are generally pretty much of a sham anyway.
Chas
Paul Tanenbaum
> >> > England has dumbed itself down to the level of the States
> >> That's a bit harsh!
> >
> >You'll get used to being that dumb. It comes with being politically
> >correct and assuming everyone is indeed "equal", so what you do is
> >cut the level of education down to the lowest level so that even
> the stupid can become PhD's.
>
> We are trying hard.
> But you have to admit, you guys set some pretty hard to
> attain standards there.
ahem
Convicted by your own testimony:
mtx...@linux.services.coventry.ac.uk (Robert Low) wrote in message news:<bv7s1s$ul$2...@sunbeam.coventry.ac.uk>...
> Reminds me of my undergrad days, when
> a memo went round all the academic staff telling them that
> if a student gave an answer that disagreed with their own,
> they should discuss it and reach a suitable compromise.
You guys are ahead of us in the race to the bottom, but
for a few of our distinguished Ivy League institutions,
proudly keeping pace...
---
Paul T.
Robert Low
>mtx...@linux.services.coventry.ac.uk (Robert Low) wrote in message
>> But you have to admit, you guys set some pretty hard to
>> attain standards there.
No fair. That was a parallel universe...I mean, a different
thread.
OK, yes, we've always had little spots of what is
now called PC. Back then, it was called the loony
left, and was (almost) universally derided.
It may be misleading, but the media certainly
give the impression that it is more pervasive
and influential in the US than in the UK.
>You guys are ahead of us in the race to the bottom, but
>for a few of our distinguished Ivy League institutions,
>proudly keeping pace...
Ah well, as long as we're on a par with the very
best of your universities, that's OK :-)
TravIsGod
The Kings of them are.
>If the wealth were distributed even as
>unevenly as is here in the US, there would be no economic problems for them.
I agree. But, we still overconsume.
And, what about nations with NO oil?
They're STILL poor.
>Then don't be surprised when we go kill a bunch of them for being assholes.
I'm not.
Trav
TravIsGod
>it's not always a 'class struggle'.
It is ALWAYS a class struggle.
The RICH do NOT turn to superstitious fundamentalist religions!
Only the POOR do that.
>Our assumption that the ME conflict is predicated on poverty or something is
>a projection of our own motivations.
It is not poverty, but relative poverty and imperial hegemony.
You just don't fucking GET IT...you've been so indoctrinated into "Americanism"
that you can't understand how some people might not like it. They are
pathologically jealous of us. It's a SIMPLE emotion that motivates them, one
of the FIRST manifest in any human - GREED.
They don't want fairness, they want to be rich like us.
>I just believe them a bit more credulously than you two stalwart
>intellectuals, sophisticated beyond my provincial perspective
Then, you're a dumbshit. Religion is a powerplay. It's used by the powerful
to shape and control the masses.
If you missed maybe the last 1500 years of Roman Catholicism, I can bring you
up to speed.
>
>That's too facile a dismissal for my tastes; an oversimplification- a means
>to dismiss the question without due diligence.
Fucking believing that "honest" religious differences are what motivate people
that MATTER is oversimplification.
>Actually, Islam has always been preoccupied with coming into your backyard-
>generally waving a sword and driving a coffle of slaves.
And WE haven't!??!?!
>They are amongst the richest and most decadent people in the world.
>You think Saudi Arabia didn't get their fair share of the hypothetical pie?
>or Kuwait? or the Emirates? or Iraq?
>They live in unimaginable luxury; all modcons.
Who, the aristocracy?
Trav
TravIsGod
>Long as you don't mind putting your boys up first, I trust the sincerity of
>your position.
I've taught my children respect.
>In fact; let's just sacrifice everybody that makes over $100K a year to
>their jealousy and resentment.
Yes, let's kill the only smart people there are in this country.
Fucking 100k? What's the world average wage, Chas, $2 a fucking DAY?
>They obviously benefit most from the
>exploitation of our Islamic Brothers in true Third World Solidarity, and I'm
>sure you wouldn't mind the personal inconvenience in light of the exercise
>of true justice and the extension of reparations for the treasure stolen in
>your good name.
>I applaud you sir.
>
>Chas
Yes, and people like you as well.
Trav
mark goldberg
> "Chas" <chasclem...@comcast.net> wrote in <LuSdnapiEae...@comcast.com>:
>>It's always funny to me where people will draw lines and decide to be
>>offended.
>>
>>Chas
>
>
> they get offended at the abrogation of other's speech- very simple,
> very straight line.
You mean... the slaughter of innocents- the use of 'biological weapons-
anticoagulants, and shards of metal- the horribly mutilate the victims
and get them to bleed to death doesn't need mention_ it despoils the
existential landscape for your too, Carl.
>
> chas, if you shew an installation of your leather work and some
> local jebussfreak got offended by the pagan imagery and molested
> your peices and knocked down your lighting, you'd be pissed too.
But they don't... the anti christians do piss on christian shows though...
>
> what the man did was flat out inexcusable; it was highly political,
> far more political than that work of art, and just plain bad.
>
>
> and Mark, i know the guy was an israeli, which makes him practically
> a saint, but he was an asshole committing a fascist act.
Carl, I know your a nice guy- but your insane here.
Seriously, off your ethical rocker.
Your talking about a homicidist, a genocidist- not in theory, not in
emotion, in actuality.
And your slur about the Israeli guy being a saint in my eyes is of
course- the sadness of watching a good man like yourself- unlike that
bastard Hal, engage in the 'sanctification' of jew-hatred.
Mark
mark goldberg
> "caterbro" <not...@notyetamartian.com> wrote
>>and Mark, i know the guy was an israeli, which makes him practically
>>a saint, but he was an asshole committing a fascist act.
>
>
> Art critics are always like that.
> I would think that the artist would be overjoyed at having provoked such a
> signal response to such a casual display of studio technique. I think
> photographers are generally pretty much of a sham anyway.
>
> Chas
>
>
The medium is the massage' was the mantra- and it's true.
It's fine and I'm all for free expression, and I'm all for kicking the
shit out of any asshole who celebrates homicide and mass slaughter and
lies about it. Call me Ismael.
Of course this does go into the death of our culture, as truly
represented by the thoughts of the lovely marxist artist with his
manufactured innocent layd, who isn't at all innocent - and I'm against
the death of our culture and the destruction of all the good that has
yet to be accomplished from it.
Now Carl- he, good chap that I'm sure he is- doesn't care much that the
noble muslims blew up a bus and killed 10 this A.M. in Jerusalem, and
many many mutilated.
I didn get to meet the doctor who directed the dolphinarium tx of the 68
mortally injured there last year- I saw the pictures, I saw the reports-
the use of Hep C and anticoagulants, and fuel oil and ground up metal
shavings- and of course- that good ole' cry of artistic liberty-
slaughter the jews, sent with the message and results- and of course-
Carl, thinks this is just well- the oppressed of the earth doin their
pure white best- like they did in Lebanon- killing I dunno 50,000?
Ah...marxist art- destroy the world, or give it to us.
mark
Chas
> >The Islamic nations are hugely rich
> The Kings of them are.
Wellduh- we're not talking republics/democracies here.
And the failure to distribute the wealth is hardly ours.
> >If the wealth were distributed even as
> >unevenly as is here in the US, there would be no economic problems for
them.
> I agree. But, we still overconsume.
We also over provide.
> And, what about nations with NO oil?
Fuck'em; let them burn cake.
> They're STILL poor.
Well; yeah- entropy.
> >Then don't be surprised when we go kill a bunch of them for being
assholes.
> I'm not.
See?
Chas
Chas
> > Art critics are always like that.
> > I would think that the artist would be overjoyed at having provoked such
a
> > signal response to such a casual display of studio technique. I think
> > photographers are generally pretty much of a sham anyway.
> It's fine and I'm all for free expression, and I'm all for kicking the
> shit out of any asshole who celebrates homicide and mass slaughter and
Sarcasm plays so poorly in this medium- I thought that was obvious from
reducing a significant social question to a comment on the art milieu- I
guess it was too 'insider'; a professional artist joke.
Vis-a-vis my position on trouncing people for being deliberately insulting
in a very provocative way, I am nostalgic for the days in which one could
horsewhip such a miscreant and hie him from the town riding on a rail,
covered with tar&feathers.
Particularly photographers- although there ought to be a special hell for
performance 'artists', found object assemblage and fucking
Bauhauscommiemotherfuckers.
Chas
(sorry, another 'art' joke)
mark goldberg
> Sarcasm plays so poorly in this medium- I thought that was obvious from
> reducing a significant social question to a comment on the art milieu- I
> guess it was too 'insider'; a professional artist joke.
> Vis-a-vis my position on trouncing people for being deliberately insulting
> in a very provocative way, I am nostalgic for the days in which one could
> horsewhip such a miscreant and hie him from the town riding on a rail,
> covered with tar&feathers.
> Particularly photographers- although there ought to be a special hell for
> performance 'artists', found object assemblage and fucking
> Bauhauscommiemotherfuckers.
>
> Chas
> (sorry, another 'art' joke)
>
>
It's true; you're more sophisticated than myself- I get lost like all
the dudley do right's in the translations :^)
Appropo trouncings- we both felt quite similarly about the burning of
the flag.
Except for me- I was explicit about even doing a 'performance' burning
or whatever, of an enemy states flag.
I lost my perspective on how groovy _all_ art can be by dating artists
over the years and hearing Norman mailer watch the airplanes slamming
into the WTC and sermonizing about how it was a truly 'brilliant act'
Mark
Chas
> Except for me- I was explicit about even doing a 'performance' burning
> or whatever, of an enemy states flag.
Because I am so involved with symbology in my own art oeuvre ('Macho
Schlock'), I tend to be reticent about iconoclasm that is intentionally
rude.
Taking refuge in rude iconoclasm as an excuse for bad art is an easy way out
for a 'populist' artist. It is just as facile as doing kids with big eyes,
stuff with indians in it or chunkin paint at a canvas blindfolded.
I would be far more impressed with the sincerity of the concept if it were
done as a pointillist work, or carved in fucking granite- 'pitchers' with
'stories' don't much impress me.
Chas
mark goldberg
'pitchers' with
> 'stories' don't much impress me.
>
> Chas
>
>
That's right about at the same level as the NY poets, who throw words at
a canvas and all go... ahhh... at the deep hidden meaning.
I could be driven to blow my nose in some of those papers....
Mark
mark goldberg
Me too...
I'm so ashamed.
I've gone thru life and it's never occurred to me to want to off someone
who had lot's of toys, and I didn't. How wrong I was.
Not only _didn't I _even feel they DESERVED to be killed, BUT, I
didn't even have a desire to be interested in the equation.
Can you imagine?
Mark
mark goldberg
> I applaud you sir.
>
> Chas
>
>
Chas... you'll note in his retort, that you too are included.
Bravo!! Brava!!
Death to us all, sayeth the Kingdom of T
Uh huh
Mark
Richard Lancashire
> Ah.... so if Kelly hadn't committed suicide there would still be a
> commission, then? I doubt it.
Impossible for me to say; there was already an enquiry (as I recall, I
wasn't in the country).
> The dishonoured side in the
> report will bear the brunt of Kelly's suicide and you know it.
I seriously doubt it. The BBC got roasted by the report, but it seems
popular opinion is against the government. As usual :P
> > > > I certainly agree with you that it was his free choice; the morality
> > > > of directing the full power of a state's PR machine (or any powerful
> > > > organisation, for that matter) against one of its own employees for
> > > > not towing the management line is a different issue.
> > >
> > > Please. "Full Power"? Now it's you being lose with the meaning of
> words.
> >
> > What would you call it?
>
> Ah.... I'm to answer for your words, then?
No, you're to answer for your criticism of my choice of words. Take
some responsibility for yourself, man! :P
> You don't follow the news in the US, do you? There's a hue and cry about
> "double standard". The Democrats have always used pejoratives far more
> than the Republicans, who pretend to be above the fray. Both sides play
> their roles.
I thought the Republicans take the moral high ground and the Democrats
attack examples of hypocrisy, then the Republicans attack the
Democrats for that, and the Democrats argue that they weren't the ones
in the first place, and.... :P
> For the record, Republicans pretend to avoid name-calling.
Interesting; most of the day-to-day stuff doesn't get reported in
Europe, and when there's a big issue the names all come out anyway.
Cheers
Rich
Mike Sigman
"Richard Lancashire" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ad6f59.04013...@posting.google.com...
>
> I seriously doubt it. The BBC got roasted by the report, but it seems
> popular opinion is against the government. As usual :P
>
Well, in a country where "popular opinion" thinks Di was done in by a
conspiracy, I don't doubt it.
>
> No, you're to answer for your criticism of my choice of words. Take
> some responsibility for yourself, man! :P
>
I do take responsibility, and for the entire length of the danged thing.
However, the governement did NOT bring its "full power" to bear... they were
pretty diplomatic. Once more I win the point because I am right, as usual.
>
> I thought the Republicans take the moral high ground and the Democrats
> attack examples of hypocrisy, then the Republicans attack the
> Democrats for that, and the Democrats argue that they weren't the ones
> in the first place, and.... :P
I beg your pardon... you obviously understand the essence of American
politics. It's quite different from in Jolly Old, but somehow you've got
the hang of it. Actually, you'll never see Republicans respond with the
invective that the Democrats do.... there's this pretense that the
Republicans are "gentlemen" and the Democrats fight fiercely because it's
for "disenfranchised minorities" and "the working man". Turns out that the
"working man" is generally the one who doesn't pay taxes or who is a member
of a union that has blackmailed its employer for pensions and wages so badly
that the employer is either going out of business or their stock sells
poorly on the exchange because of the huge, looming pensions counting as
liabilities to the corporation. No, the name calling is a hallmark of the
liberals... like Hal calls everyone "Nazis", "fascists", etc.
>
> > For the record, Republicans pretend to avoid name-calling.
>
> Interesting; most of the day-to-day stuff doesn't get reported in
> Europe, and when there's a big issue the names all come out anyway.
Well, a goodly for-instance is in the public calling, by Democratic
presidential candidates and Democratic senators, of the president as a
"liar", "unpatriotic", etc. As I noted somewhere else, I got a laugh out of
Ted Kennedy calling Bush a liar, when Kennedy was the one that hid for 14
hours after his illicit date died in his car by drowning so that he could
lower his blood-alcohol level, he got caught cheating at Harvard, and he's
been caught in a number of other things that paid judges have had to bail
him out of.... but he's a revered stalwart of the Democrats and feels that
he can call others "liars" from his high moral perch. :^)
Mike
TravIsGod
>Wellduh- we're not talking republics/democracies here.
>And the failure to distribute the wealth is hardly ours.
It is when we concentrate it here.
What about all the OTHER nations in the world??!
>> I agree. But, we still overconsume.
>
>We also over provide.
LOL. No, we don't.
>
>> And, what about nations with NO oil?
>
>Fuck'em; let them burn cake.
>
always the humanitarian.
Trav
Chas
> >Wellduh- we're not talking republics/democracies here.
> >And the failure to distribute the wealth is hardly ours.
> It is when we concentrate it here.
We don't.
We are the most generous economic system in the world.
Particularly, the transfer of wealth to the ME is one of the largest in the
history of mankind.
> What about all the OTHER nations in the world??!
What about them?
> >We also over provide.
> LOL. No, we don't.
Sure we do- everything from raw wood to wheat.
> >> And, what about nations with NO oil?
> >Fuck'em; let them burn cake.
> always the humanitarian.
No; seriously.
We send them enough foodstuffs, and see little enough in affect, that they
must be fucking burning it for all the good it does.
Chas
caterbro
> > an asshole committing a fascist act.
>
> Art critics are always like that.
you know it.
> I would think that the artist would be overjoyed at having provoked such a
> signal response to such a casual display of studio technique.
hell yes- i'd be jumping for joy if i were him:)
> I think
> photographers are generally pretty much of a sham anyway.
there is a considerable body of technique in taking a good photograph-
plenty of craft, loads of artistic decision, and to top it off, its
the most unforgiving medium ever. the thing is, any photo can be
interesting because of if nature as a recording medium; often the art
is lost in the object.
carl
> Chas
caterbro
> Now Carl- he, good chap that I'm sure he is- doesn't care much that the
> noble muslims blew up a bus and killed 10 this A.M. in Jerusalem, and
> many many mutilated.
ass opposed to the how many blown up and multilated by the Israelis?
what's the difference, at this late date?
its all bad Mark, and that's the point of the art peice- the frisson
came from turning the humanity, the pity and the pathos away from the
ingrained prejudice of the veiwer and making it universally
applicable.
every man brings to art what he wants to see, and israelis have no
less a capability for harted, vengeance and dehumanization that the
palestinian- that was the point of the piece, and the meaning of the
ambassador's protest.
> mark
caterbro
> > and Mark, i know the guy was an israeli, which makes him practically
> > a saint, but he was an asshole committing a fascist act.
>
> Carl, I know your a nice guy- but your insane here.
> Seriously, off your ethical rocker.
>
> Your talking about a homicidist, a genocidist- not in theory, not in
> emotion, in actuality.
who?
> And your slur about the Israeli guy being a saint in my eyes is of
> course- the sadness of watching a good man like yourself- unlike that
> bastard Hal, engage in the 'sanctification' of jew-hatred.
no hatred here, mark- just a rough joke. you see these things through
the prism of your own bias as we all do, and i don't fault you for it,
but for someone on the outside, the whole thing is pitiful, sad and
upsetting, all the way around.
carl
> Mark
caterbro
> No. Taiwan is a plot of land which has more symbolic than strategic value.
> It's like West Berlin, a showpiece.
it has huge strategic importance. it's a hub for trade, a giant in
advanced manufacturing, centrally located, etc., etc. there is a lot
of cultural predicate in the chinese wish to retake it, but the
US-Taiwan-Japan triangle is the anchor point for trade throughtout the
region, esp. to the US.
> Unlikely unless China gets access to oil. They cannot grow their economy
> without power generation.
you haven't been paying attention. China has been discovering reserves
in the TAlimankan, they're pushing hydro like never before, nuclear,
and there is oil in the north as well. right now they are a heavy
importer, but that may change.
Additionally, without an increasing population base,
> growth is infeasible.
the chinese population is growing, the middle class expanding, the
industrilisation proceeds apace.
> >
> >japan ain't got squat. china could sink japan without blinkng an eye right
> >now-
> >they can afford a few cities.
>
> What? You seriously overestimate China and underestimate Japan.
look again. CHina is the dominant military power in the region, or
they would be is America didn't have spy satellites and a navy that
never leaves. Japan might have a few nukes, but that's peanuts
compared to the Chinese stockpile.
> China's model is built around export of cheap goods. That's it.
that is changing incredibly rapidly. CHina is industrialising pretty
much overnight, they are plowing resources into infrastructure, they
dominate major industries in the region, have a marketplace
approaching the wests, and etc., etc.
and, last i checked, a sustainable double-digit rate of economic
growth is a sign of promise...
> Trade game with China? We're a fucking importer. They're an exporter.
at a huge loss- soone we will be, if not already, ENTIRELY DEPENDANT
on Chinese imports. then they can fuck with us, but not until they
have a military equilibrium with us. and they will.
> Without our money flowing in, they have jackshitnothing.
no longer true. the US is the biggest investor, biggest buyer of
Chinese goods, but not the majority- far from it.
> China has its own problems. The most glaring is that they cannot control their
> economy via this dictatorial anachronism called Communist fascism. It just
> can't work.
Trav? what decade did you last take a look at china? the 80's? much
like your mullet, China has long since outgrown that old stuff. they
are poised to be the dominant power on the planet.
> India is in direct competition with China for the growth/wealth miracle that
> the USA and Western nations got in the last century. CHINA is why India tested
> nukes a few years ago. India does not see Pakistan as a true rival,
> rightfully. China is the regional competitor. India does not need medium
> range missile capability to strike Pakistan, carl.
india is not much of a threat, seeing as they shi[p all their brains
and exports over here and keep nothing for themselves...
> We got there first and it turned out that there isn't enough oil
> supply for another 2B to live like we do.
that is true- that's where WWIV is coming from. i'll want a seat in
the shade for that one...
> Trav
caterbro
> earth.
why not? basically the same premise as Christianity, quite a bit more
enlightened in social and philosophical matters (of the period), same
basic underpinnigs as judiasm, smacks of Zoroastrianism in places-
very streamlined, very clean, very adaptable and equable faith- which
seems to be proving to be a drawback:)
> Turkey is on the trembling edge of Islamic revolt
hardly.
> > georgia is getting there,
>
> Georgia's in the midst of one as we speak
economic/political- blame loony old Breznehev
> > and india, mother
> > of us all, managed a fairly congenial melting pot until the last 50 years
> or so- even
> > now, the muslim/hindu strife is decidely tribal rather than pandemic.
>
> Hogwash- it's been a religious war between Hindus and Muslims since they
> met- regardless of tribal affiliations as well as extending to any other
> religion other than Hindu.
pork showers to you too. the british were astonished by the
cohabitation of cultures and religions in India when they got there-
they'd never managed anything even remotely similar at home.
> I mean- why are you never on the side of your own?
I am- I thought afganistan wqas a fine idea, happy when the taliban
went down and al-quaeda scattered, and i'd even like to see the war
prosecuted again- aginast Al-Quaeda- not islam.
> Objectively considering Islam in the light of scholarly analysis is all fine
> and dandy- until it's *you* that's next on the list for extermination.
there is no way to lump it all together. there are too many things
that make a difference to simply say, "islamic=bad". as leif as say
"red socks=bad"
carl
> Chas
caterbro
>
> Those are the motivations with which you're most familiar- a reflection of
> your training in the capitalist system.
the result of seeing the world in aggregate rationality with due
consideration of causal relationships- the only way to travel.
> > we are right.
> > And, Marx was right- its the 21st century and there are 6 billion
> > people on the rock- religion is was people do when they have the
> > time, or what they use as an excuse when they are hungry.
>
> That's too facile a dismissal for my tastes; an oversimplification- a means
> to dismiss the question without due diligence.
i can say the same about you and the unfortunate facility with which
you tar every muslim with the same brush-
> every time they went to cooperate, modernize,
> secularize,
> > self-determin, we killed them- and they aren't getting fooled again.
>
> Poop.
> They were a bunch of camel jockies when we discovered a resource for them,
> developed it for them, gave it to them as a gift, and continue in the
> largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world to them.
that is the wildest reading of early twentieth c. history i've ever
heard- and wrong all over.
> They are amongst the richest and most decadent people in the world.
who's they, Chas? Iraqis ain't kurds ain't Ugyars ain't persians ain't
arabians ain't egyptians ain't ethopians, who also ain't Tamils,
Javamen, or filipinos.
espcially they ain't all palestinians.
> In which case you probably support the overthrow of Saddam- neh?
i'm all for cleaning up our own garbage- i'm also all ofr cooperation,
multilateralism, and etc. so i'm ambivalent. anyway, in case you were
snoozing off the tanning fumes, the war in Iraq didn't have all that
much to do with Saddam Hussien. could been Bert for all they cared,
and Ernie too.
carl
> Chas
Chas
> > Not that I concede a similarity between Islam and any other religion on
> > earth.
> why not? basically the same premise as Christianity, quite a bit more
> enlightened in social and philosophical matters (of the period), same
> basic underpinnigs as judiasm, smacks of Zoroastrianism in places-
> very streamlined, very clean, very adaptable and equable faith- which
> seems to be proving to be a drawback:)
The requirement is to 'Submit'; not 'Recieve the gift freely given', or even
'Observe the law as a matter of birth obligation'- it's 'submit or die'.
The cliche` is that 'Islam comes at the point of a sword.'
As far as they're concerned, there is no alternative to submission- the
peace of Islam is to have no other belief system on Earth.
> > Turkey is on the trembling edge of Islamic revolt
> hardly.
Oh hell; I just saw an examination of the conflict between secular
administration and religious practice in the populace-
I'm not there or anything, but there seemed to be quite a question, if tv be
our guide <g>
> > > georgia is getting there,
> > Georgia's in the midst of one as we speak
> economic/political- blame loony old Breznehev
No; we're talking muslim extremists- all the way over to the Western border
of China.
> pork showers to you too. the british were astonished by the
> cohabitation of cultures and religions in India when they got there-
> they'd never managed anything even remotely similar at home.
Northern India had already been conquered by the Sultanate- the Hindus have
been losing ground for centuries-
>.....and i'd even like to see the war
> prosecuted again- aginast Al-Quaeda- not islam.
al Quaeda *is* 'the' militant arm of Islam.
If only 10% of the body of Islam is radicalized, that's still 120,000,000
strong- and they're mostly young, highly motivated and armed with personal
weapons.
> there is no way to lump it all together. there are too many things
> that make a difference to simply say, "islamic=bad". as leif as say
> "red socks=bad"
No- it's a lot less generalized than that.
Mohammed was a bandit.
That's where the religion *starts*; a warrior religion, a conquerors
religion- the 'peace' of a divine Tokugawa, ruthlessly exterminating any
rebel thought, much less 'action'.
That's all real objective, until they come after you.
Chas
mark goldberg
> mark goldberg <msgol...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<ucdSb.37440$6J6.
>
>
>>Now Carl- he, good chap that I'm sure he is- doesn't care much that the
>>noble muslims blew up a bus and killed 10 this A.M. in Jerusalem, and
>>many many mutilated.
>
>
> ass opposed to the how many blown up and multilated by the Israelis?
> what's the difference, at this late date?
>
Well... let's see. The Muslims cry, "slaughter the Jews"-
And have for 1300 yrs- off and on. the Israeli's don't slaughter anyone.
The Israeli's go and kill homicidists- and there's the occasional victim
of the war. But yeah... the differences are utterly striking, always
were... except to the marxists like your Carl.
> its all bad Mark, and that's the point of the art peice
No it's not... It's not all bad.
And that wasn't the point of the art piece at all.
The point of the art piece was the phony, made up 'oppressed' and then
transmutting them, the oppressed, now in their iteration as
slaughterers- which they've freely admitted to being, doing, desiring.
into the righteous of the earth- ergo- the 'oppressed'
They're not- they're the crowd raised to be the homicidists that they
now are- by Islam.
- the frisson
> came from turning the humanity, the pity and the pathos away from the
> ingrained prejudice of the veiwer and making it universally
> applicable.
you can't say that without sounding like an idiot to all except the
marxists and social engineers who play god- and wind up killing mega
millions.
>
> every man brings to art what he wants to see, and israelis have no
> less a capability for harted, vengeance and dehumanization that the
> palestinian- that was the point of the piece, and the meaning of the
> ambassador's protest.
Oh yes they do... you have the capability of hatred, you have the
capability of slaughter- and you've shown it here now... it's all the
same to you- the artist's 'freedom' to transmute the homicidal glory of
mass murder- into pure white freedom of a 'fake'oppression.
And you lie, and excuse it by saying- the victim is no less capable of
being a homicidist; the 'palestinian' erased innocent victims and made
an excuse- just as they do- because although they say it easiyl in
arabic-I can show you voluminous such videos of sermons and
speeches-that the goal is to slaughter the jew, the infidel, which is
why they made 'refugees' and prevented them from getting any benefits-
and arafat stole- over 3 billion dollars!! and keeps his wife in luxury
in a paris hotel on a 100,000 dollar a month allowance while he starves
his people and keeps all the profits for himself and his slobs of murderes.
You are a marxis. That's your song.
It's a lie. Period.
And you've made the homicidists and this one homicidist, the victim- and
spit on the blown up remains of all those who suffered their blank
hatred and homicidal bigotry.
Mark
Chas
> i can say the same about you and the unfortunate facility with which
> you tar every muslim with the same brush-
That's far too general a characterization of my position- I'm, in general,
antagonistic to the religious/philosophical platform of the Islamofascists,
commonly thought to be about 10% of Islam, or about 120,000,000 highly
motivated young holy warriors.
> > They were a bunch of camel jockies when we discovered a resource for
them,
> > developed it for them, gave it to them as a gift, and continue in the
> > largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world to them.
> that is the wildest reading of early twentieth c. history i've ever
> heard- and wrong all over.
Actually, I remember the nationalization of the oil resources in Saudi
Arabia- when they just came in and confiscated them.
> > They are amongst the richest and most decadent people in the world.
> who's they, Chas? Iraqis ain't kurds ain't Ugyars ain't persians ain't
> arabians ain't egyptians ain't ethopians, who also ain't Tamils,
> Javamen, or filipinos.
All of which peoples you just mentioned have plutocrats enjoying the most
decadent lifestyle possible with the proceeds from the oppression of their
own people.
> espcially they ain't all palestinians.
Send the palestinians to Iraq- good place for them.
> i'm all for cleaning up our own garbage- i'm also all ofr cooperation,
> multilateralism, and etc. so i'm ambivalent. anyway, in case you were
> snoozing off the tanning fumes, the war in Iraq didn't have all that
> much to do with Saddam Hussien. could been Bert for all they cared,
> and Ernie too.
Oh yeah; sure.
Saddam was a good demonstration project- Muammar dodged the bullet for being
the poster child for Islamic Assholes Stomped Today; Hafez al Assad died and
got out of the running; you don't make any bones for overthrowing the Emir
of Waziristan- Saddam was a good choice.
Chas
caterbro
> The requirement is to 'Submit'; not 'Recieve the gift freely given', or even
> 'Observe the law as a matter of birth obligation'-
first of all, it's "submission before God", and second, Catholic"
means "obediance to the Church"
I know which one i'd take
> The cliche` is that 'Islam comes at the point of a sword.'
the actual cliche is that salvation comes at the point of a sword,
and refers to the Church.
> > > Turkey is on the trembling edge of Islamic revolt
> > hardly.
>
> Oh hell; I just saw an examination of the conflict between secular
> administration and religious practice in the populace-
> I'm not there or anything, but there seemed to be quite a question, if tv be
> our guide <g>
two mentors and professors of mine, one a young white woman, have
been there, lived there and report to me no such thing.
sure, they have problems with a certain kind of Islamist, but we have
problems with Robertson.
>
> > pork showers to you too. the british were astonished by the
> > cohabitation of cultures and religions in India when they got there-
> > they'd never managed anything even remotely similar at home.
>
> Northern India had already been conquered by the Sultanate- the Hindus have
> been losing ground for centuries-
what, you mean: Pakistan? :)
> >.....and i'd even like to see the war
> > prosecuted again- aginast Al-Quaeda- not islam.
>
> al Quaeda *is* 'the' militant arm of Islam.
no it isn't- its a teeny, eeny, tiny groups of international terrorists.
> If only 10% of the body of Islam is radicalized, that's still 120,000,000
> strong- and they're mostly young, highly motivated and armed with personal
> weapons.
well, there is political radicalization, as in the Arab world, and there is
religious radicalization, as in Afganistan and so forth- they do overlap,
but political radicalization is a whole diferent ball of wax- much easier to
mitigate and much more fliud as a whole
> > there is no way to lump it all together. there are too many things
> > that make a difference to simply say, "islamic=bad". as leif as say
> > "red socks=bad"
>
> No- it's a lot less generalized than that.
> Mohammed was a bandit.
Christ was a street magician-
Buddha was a rich boy-
> That's where the religion *starts*; a warrior religion, a conquerors
> religion- the 'peace' of a divine Tokugawa, ruthlessly exterminating any
> rebel thought, much less 'action'.
phooey- no more and no less than the Chruch ever was.
> That's all real objective, until they come after you.
hey, i'm a rational animist- on everybody's shitlist-
carl
>
caterbro
> caterbro wrote:
> > mark goldberg <msgol...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<ucdSb.37440$6J6.
> >
> >
> >>Now Carl- he, good chap that I'm sure he is- doesn't care much that the
> >>noble muslims blew up a bus and killed 10 this A.M. in Jerusalem, and
> >>many many mutilated.
> >
> >
> > ass opposed to the how many blown up and multilated by the Israelis?
> > what's the difference, at this late date?
> >
>
> And have for 1300 yrs- off and on.
so have the christians-
> the Israeli's don't slaughter anyone.
i'm sorry?
> The Israeli's go and kill homicidists- and there's the occasional victim
> of the war.
Mark, i hate to point this out, but the death toll is running 5 to 1. five
dead palestinians for every dead Israeli.
ALL those palestinians were "homicidists"(terrible neoplogism, BTW) or
"occasional victims"?
face the facts, Mark- the conflict indicts the Israelis for cruelty and
slaughter just as much as it does the Palestinians. there is no aggreived
party here, nobody acting in righteousness- just a bunch of shithead
settlers, a hardcore of disgusting orthodox fanatics, and a shitload of
palestinians with nothing to live for.
> > every man brings to art what he wants to see, and israelis have no
> > less a capability for harted, vengeance and dehumanization that the
> > palestinian- that was the point of the piece, and the meaning of the
> > ambassador's protest.
>
> Oh yes they do... you have the capability of hatred, you have the
> capability of slaughter- and you've shown it here now... it's all the
> same to you- the artist's 'freedom' to transmute the homicidal glory of
> mass murder- into pure white freedom of a 'fake'oppression.
start over and make that make sense- i don't follow-
> And you lie,
about what?
> and excuse it by saying- the victim is no less capable of
> being a homicidist; the 'palestinian' erased innocent victims and made
> an excuse- just as they do-
they don't- i've heard that the palestinians keep careful tally of the israelis
killed by palestinians- paint it on the walls and shit- they just don't think
the israelis are innocent.
> You are a marxis. That's your song.
new neo-marxist, please...
> It's a lie. Period.
>
> And you've made the homicidists and this one homicidist, the victim- and
> spit on the blown up remains of all those who suffered their blank
> hatred and homicidal bigotry.
nope- just pointing out that art tells us uncomfortable things, and the surest
sign of that is when you try and hide that uncomfortable truth, whatever it
may be,by destroying it.
carl
> Mark
>
caterbro
> Actually, I remember the nationalization of the oil resources in Saudi
> Arabia- when they just came in and confiscated them.
who? the british?
> > espcially they ain't all palestinians.
>
> Send the palestinians to Iraq- good place for them.
what? ANOTHER diaspora?:)
> could been Bert for all they cared,
> > and Ernie too.
>
> Oh yeah; sure.
> Saddam was a good demonstration project-
I don't agree. he was the only country we could invade without turning
the entire middle east, and the world against us- a soft spot in the arab
world. and he has oil, and israeli is an unreliable ally due to the
palestinian question. we needed oil and a solid strategic platform.
Iraq fit the bill. nobody in the administration gives a shit about Libya, or
anybody else- just an unexpected bonus.
don't fall into the logical trap of assigning your motives to the actions
of others. if you support the war becuase of your reasons as above, you
are getting duped.
carl
> Chas
>
mark goldberg
Well, those rough jokes are tough to translate when watching the
homicide victims parlayed into word games.
These are the true victims, the true innocents- and your a man of some
honesty- so I can't buy your blase' indifference and coldness to them...
the ambassador did a nice bit of artistic expression... but it's
meaningless.
The 'artists' expression was the death of art; as was the death of mult
people, buried under the textures and tones, under the opacity, and the
unctious self love of the artist- a dying species- to be replaced by the
culture of the homicidists who've explicity written that this is one of
the signs that their power is now ready to replace this detritus... of
course
it's all 'art' to you?
The whole thing isn't all, pitiful, sad, and upsetting.
The nazi's and their pagan mutilations were'nt pitiful, sad, and upsetting.
An old lady, who's slipped on the ice, is too weak to pull herself and
her groceries to terra firma, is pitiful, sad, and upsetting.
Your use of language needs some work.
Moral equivalency always dulls the axe of ethics.
Making it a mere dildo.
Mark
Chas
> I know which one i'd take
Good.
With Islam, you get to make the choice if you're next on the list.
> sure, they have problems with a certain kind of Islamist, but we have
> problems with Robertson.
Pat Robertson is advocating homicide bombings, the stoning of adulterers,
the wood-chipping of dissidents and the installation of a theocratic
nobility over a totalitarian caliphate?
Damn- I *am* out of touch. When did he start doing that?
> > al Quaeda *is* 'the' militant arm of Islam.
> no it isn't- its a teeny, eeny, tiny groups of international terrorists.
It is the rubric under which the Islamofascists of various countries,
languages, &tc. network to their mutual benefit.
> > No- it's a lot less generalized than that.
> > Mohammed was a bandit.
> Christ was a street magician-
Yes- a signal difference if you're stuck between tipping the street
entertainer or dying in the desert at the hands of murdering bandits.
> > That's where the religion *starts*; a warrior religion, a conquerors
> > religion- the 'peace' of a divine Tokugawa, ruthlessly exterminating any
> > rebel thought, much less 'action'.
> phooey- no more and no less than the Chruch ever was.
Except that now, *you're* the object of the exercise.
> > That's all real objective, until they come after you.
> hey, i'm a rational animist- on everybody's shitlist-
Yeah; the US is one of the few places on earth that would tolerate you, bud-
me too.
Islam sharia wouldn't put up with us for a heartbeat.
Chas