moo doe generations of "masters"
Robert C. Shouse
THIS POST CONTAINS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES WITH THE cmq/cmd ORGANIZATION
(Hell, I'll even use the <ENTER> key :))
<bil...@aol.com (BillCMQ)> wrote
>Gee, I've not been exactly silent. Ive made a number of responses, both on
>and off the net.
>
>Many of the inquiries have not merited aserious response ( how does one
>answer the question " do you still beat your wife?").
Having been taught directly by Mike McKay in the 1980's his and other
instructors attitudes toward women (in general) was very poor. More of
a "be seen and not heard" policy sighting that the asian attitude towards
the role of women in general was "correct". There was even a strong push
to make a seperate cmq just for women, with a female "instructor".
>Small wonder that my posts are positive towards Chung Moo martial arts.
>After all, I've *personally* seen great benefit for those who sincerely
>practice the style. There is no question inmy mind that there are other
>very sincere styles of martial arts that have benefited their
>practitioners. My point has been that Chung Moo martial arts are
>legitimate in the field of true martial arts. I've never said nor implied
>that Chung Moo is the *only* true martial art.
Having been taught directly by John Liska and Tom White in 1980 their
attitude and teaching was that chung moo quan was the martial art from
which other martial arts spawned and that chung moo quan was superior
to every other martial art in the world.
>To me, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the bibliography
>of the cookbook. As long as Chung Moo martial arts are able to benefit
>myself and others who practice, does it really matter who taught what to
>whom?
>I would rather learn from anyone who will teach right direction ( as
>CMQ/CMD does), than from some "publicly acknowleged" expert who does not.
You've hit the nail right on the head (too bad you can't see it). If the
cmq/cmd organization said just that:
"What we teach works well for us. We have no lineage and are unsure of the
origins of what we teach."
Then a lot of issues would vanish. You've made claims. Have been unable
to substantiate them and are protesting because you are being called on the
carpet.
Just give a whole bunch of demonstartions without BS claims about a
grandmaster of all asia, and supposed martial arts teaching that goes back
1500 years. Oh and stop charging ridiculous amounts of money. If this
knowledge has no price why don't you stop charging altogether and really
make students earn instead of buy knowledge.
>I invite you openly to take one month's lessons in an accredited Chung Moo
>school, so you can see what Chung Moo training is all about. If you are
>at all close to Elk Grove Village, Illinois, I will personally see to your
>training. I have experience in other styles, by lessons and by observing
>demonstrations.
>I am confident, by the only really criterion of judgement- personal
>experience- that real exposure to Chung Moo martial arts will be of
>benefit to you.
I've taken more than four years of chung moo quan lessons. I was an
"olympic course" student and was offered the "opportunity" to take
"instructor course" lessons. I have more than 1000 pages of notes regarding
cmq/cmd forms/movements/philosophies/claims. The price quoted to me for
"instructor training" was $100,000 US by Tom McGee. When I wouldn't pay
$500 US a month for olympic course lessons Tom McGee told me that; "I was
lucky to have the opportunity to take cmq training" and that "several students were paying a lot more for the same instruction". He also went on to say
that if I left the "school" that only bad things would happen to me and that
he would rather tear out his finger nails and have them grow back ten
thousand times then teach somebody incorrectly. Tom McGee then proceeded
to tell me how Mr. Kim "chewed him out" for eight hours straight because
he was teaching incorrectly.
The more involved I got the more this organization attempted to dictate:
how to live my life, who to associate with, even what types of clothes
I should wear. The health "benefits" I received from "true mind body"
training almost crippled me. Especially "lessons" that forced lower
postures without adequate warming up.
Not to mention the inherent danger of taking black belt/olympic/instructor
classes. It's interesting that this organization places emphasis on
exact movement and control and then has its "instructors" severly injure
students.
The only time that my endurance and strength improved was when I decided
what exercises to practice, when to practice and how to practice.
When I decided to leave the organzation in the eighties I was told directly
by Mike McKay that people who left the cmq organization were considered
"walking dead" echoing Tom Mcgee's sentiments. After all: "how would I be
able to live my life without 'true' directon"? This was around the time
that channel 2 news (based out of Chicago) did an expose on cmq called
"The Cult and the Con". During this time the "instructors" strongly
suggested that students donate to a legal fund and that students should
write testimonials. Those testimonials looked exactly like the ones tha
have appeared here on rec.ma. Now specifics just vagueness on how people
were helped and how great cmq training really is.
When I went back to the cmq organizaton in the nineties all of the
"instructors" had been shifted to different schools. When I told the new
"instructors" I was a student in the eighties they immediatly said, without
prompting; the instructors in the eighties were wrongly accused of doing
different things, "school" was different back then and the "instructors" had
to do what they had to do. Interestingly enough the "school" was now
teaching tai chi, a discipline that the "school" of the eighties said was
weak and a waste of time. Qigong training was also being advertised. In
the eighties the concept of developing chi/ki/qi was considered a waste of
time. Other arts didn't understand the true nature of what they were
teaching and by practicing cmq forms similar effects would be produced.
The prominence of the concept of um-yang was also de-emphasized and lately
the tai-chi symbol has appeared in the cmq organization's logo.
Having practiced bagua/paqua, hsing i and tai chi (Chen style). I can
easily say that the health benefits from practicing these disciplines
outweigh the "benefits" of cmq/cmd training to the power of ten.
>If you chose to doubt without experience, well, you're welcome to do so.
I doubt with experience.
>Regards,
>
>BillCMQ
--
Robert C. Shouse
Jeff Reichard
> To Robert Shouce:
> 1368 Tiburon Court
> Hanover Park IL.
>
> I remember you when you were a beginning student in Chung Moo Quan around
> 1983. You were 18 years old, about 5'10'', around 170 lbs. with brown
> hair. I remember your mother was a student as well. Because of this , I
> am concerned about some of the things you have been saying about CMQ. At
> first I took your information as a joke, but now I can see that you have
> gone way over the line. It is sad to see in our current society that
> jealousy and the need for attention can cause someone jeopardize their
> future.
Wow, creepy post. Mike, I've got to hand it to you. Robert Shouse gave me
no reason to *believe* that CMD is full of control-weenies who track down
and threaten critics and former students. But you're a national instructor
in the organization, and that's just what you've done here. This may be
the first substantive post I've seen from a CMD practitioner.
> * You say that CMQ has no factual origin. Your use of the term factual
> is actually based on what you *believe* to be factual. I disagree with
> what you believe. According to your logic, if you cannot show your
> ancestral line back a few thousand years, then *you* do not exist. It
> would not surprise me that one day you will look in the mirror and
> question your own existence.
Well, no Mike. If Shouse said his ancestor was Napoleon (or, say, the
Grandmaster of All Asia), then _his_ logic says he'd have to prove that to
be believed. That seems reasonable. No one disputes that there are
pajama-clad paramilitary dandies practicing CMD. You've proved that
yourself. Some people dispute that they've been doing it for thousands of
years, as the dandies frequently claim.
Nice implied threat in the last sentence, though.
= Snipped: more creepy personal attacks and CMD "movement" howlers =
> * One reason CMD continues to grow is that people can see the benefits of
> their training. One part of Chung Moo philosophy says that if you have
> time to be jealous of others use that time instead to improve yourself.
> Once you have improved yourself there is no reason to be jealous of
> others.
>
> * I am now an Assistant National Instructor in the CMD Martial arts.
> Back then I was your teacher. In the near future I would like to visit
> with you when I am in town. At that time we can sit down and talk about
> your personal problems.
>
> Mike McKay
> Assistant National Instructor
> Chung Moo Doe
> Pittsburgh PA.
Yet a black-belt national officer in CMD hasn't needed to improve himself
beyond moronic arguments, personal attacks, and intimidation tactics. Can
we assume these are also parts of the CMD "philosophy?" Again, I've never
had any reason to *believe* all of the posts about the CMD organization.
Now I do. Thanks, Mike.
Jeff
Llw44
1368 Tiburon Court
Hanover Park IL.
I remember you when you were a beginning student in Chung Moo Quan around
1983. You were 18 years old, about 5'10'', around 170 lbs. with brown
hair. I remember your mother was a student as well. Because of this , I
am concerned about some of the things you have been saying about CMQ. At
first I took your information as a joke, but now I can see that you have
gone way over the line. It is sad to see in our current society that
jealousy and the need for attention can cause someone jeopardize their
future.
* You say that CMQ has no factual origin. Your use of the term factual
is actually based on what you *believe* to be factual. I disagree with
what you believe. According to your logic, if you cannot show your
ancestral line back a few thousand years, then *you* do not exist. It
would not surprise me that one day you will look in the mirror and
question your own existence.
* Except for more recent history it is difficult to document the origins
of Moo Doe, but the skill and knowledge of Moo Doe movement is something
that cannot be denied. You do not believe the pictures you have seen,
you do not believe that tens of thousands of people have benefited from CM
training, and you deny that you benefited from your training. Yet you say
we should believe you. I know you used to have some personal problems,
but now it seems that things have gotten worse.
* You talk like you are an authority on the martial arts and a pretty
good practitioner too. If you have so much skill as a martial artist why
don't you spend that time teaching others rather than gossiping? Can you
document your credibility with either a video or photographs of your
movement?
* In your first year of training in Chung Moo Quan you barely reached
3rd section (less than halfway to black belt). It is a strange way to
prove your ability by saying that the school was bad. You could not cut
the mustard and quit when you were passed over for testing.
* After a stint in the navy, you said you went to the north pole, then
came back to CMQ. Again you quit after a short time because even 10
minutes of forms like Do Doe Ghee (basic low walking positition) and Tang
Ju (beginning low twisting movement) were too rigorous for you . I
remember that you lacked the determination to reach 1st degree.
* Your fellow students at the CMQ school in Schaumburg were turned off by
your bragging of practicing 14 hours in the woods and bringing mystical
powers into your body. With all of that abiltiy, the way I remember it
you did not even have the strength to block my little finger. Your
constant stories and your belief that the earth would turn upside down
when the polar ice caps got too large, was another source of apprehension
among the students.
* You said you got an "interesting" scar when sparring in Japan. I
clearly remember you telling me that you had an operation for an unusual
intestinal problem and that was the reason you had difficulty practicing.
Jim Walters
: To Robert Shouce:
: 1368 Tiburon Court
: Hanover Park IL.
[very disturbing post deleted]
Perhaps someone should archive this, and forward it to people who ask for
opinions about Chung Moo Doe.
--
Jim Walters
jwal...@clark.net "Putting the DOH! in Aikido"
Julian M. Frost
>
> Mike McKay writes:
> > * You say that CMQ has no factual origin. Your use of the term factual
> > is actually based on what you *believe* to be factual. I disagree with
> > what you believe. According to your logic, if you cannot show your
> > ancestral line back a few thousand years, then *you* do not exist. It
> > would not surprise me that one day you will look in the mirror and
> > question your own existence.
>
> Grandmaster of All Asia), then _his_ logic says he'd have to prove that to
> be believed. That seems reasonable. No one disputes that there are
> pajama-clad paramilitary dandies practicing CMD. You've proved that
> yourself. Some people dispute that they've been doing it for thousands of
> years, as the dandies frequently claim.
Not to mention that the claims that CMD has all appear to be
false. The CMD promotional video shows that what they teach as
Aikido, "Samurai" (Kom-Do, or Samurai Sword) and Judo (Yudo) are
NOTHING of the sort.
> Nice implied threat in the last sentence, though.
Wasn't it!
> > * One reason CMD continues to grow is that people can see the benefits of
> > their training.
Heh! Members of the Moonies and other cult organizations also
believe in the "benefits" of their training! :-)
Julian
--
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( | ARPA: crash!odaiko!jfr...@nosc.mil
___|____ INET: jfr...@odaiko.cts.com
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(____/ . Public Key for Encrypted Mail available on request.
Larry
Walters) wrote:
> Llw44 (ll...@aol.com) wrote:
> : To Robert Shouce:
> : 1368 Tiburon Court
> : Hanover Park IL.
> :
>
> [very disturbing post deleted]
>
> Perhaps someone should archive this, and forward it to people who ask for
> opinions about Chung Moo Doe.
I believe a bunch of these people were just arrested for tax evasion.
There was a big post about it on AOL.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
..
Robert C. Shouse
Mike McKay writes:
> To Robert Shouce:
> 1368 Tiburon Court
> Hanover Park IL.
> I remember you when you were a beginning student in Chung Moo Quan around
> 1983. You were 18 years old, about 5'10'', around 170 lbs. with brown
> hair. I remember your mother was a student as well. Because of this , I
> am concerned about some of the things you have been saying about CMQ. At
> first I took your information as a joke, but now I can see that you have
> gone way over the line. It is sad to see in our current society that
> jealousy and the need for attention can cause someone jeopardize their
> future.
> * You say that CMQ has no factual origin. Your use of the term factual
> is actually based on what you *believe* to be factual. I disagree with
> what you believe. According to your logic, if you cannot show your
> ancestral line back a few thousand years, then *you* do not exist. It
> would not surprise me that one day you will look in the mirror and
> question your own existence.
> * One reason CMD continues to grow is that people can see the benefits of
> their training. One part of Chung Moo philosophy says that if you have
> time to be jealous of others use that time instead to improve yourself.
> Once you have improved yourself there is no reason to be jealous of
> others.
> * I am now an Assistant National Instructor in the CMD Martial arts.
> Back then I was your teacher. In the near future I would like to visit
> with you when I am in town. At that time we can sit down and talk about
> your personal problems.
>
> Mike McKay
> Assistant National Instructor
> Chung Moo Doe
> Pittsburgh PA.
Having just seen this on the net on a post from Jeff Reichard I
asume this is something I'll see in snail mail.
For those of you who have had to deal with cults or are anticipating
dealing with one in the future contact the Cult Awareness Network
at 312 267 7777 if you need more information regarding cult method-
ologies.
One of the things that particularly stands out (to me anyway) is that
the information used to describe me came straight from my drivers
license.
--
Robert C. Shouse
Joan Tine
> > gone way over the line. It is sad to see in our current society that
> > jealousy and the need for attention can cause someone jeopardize their
> > future.
> > would not surprise me that one day you will look in the mirror and
> > question your own existence.
> > * I am now an Assistant National Instructor in the CMD Martial arts.
> > Back then I was your teacher. In the near future I would like to visit
> > with you when I am in town. At that time we can sit down and talk about
> > your personal problems.
> >
> > Mike McKay
> > Assistant National Instructor
> > Chung Moo Doe
> > Pittsburgh PA.
> Having just seen this on the net on a post from Jeff Reichard I
> asume this is something I'll see in snail mail.
> For those of you who have had to deal with cults or are anticipating
> dealing with one in the future contact the Cult Awareness Network
> at 312 267 7777 if you need more information regarding cult method-
> ologies.
> One of the things that particularly stands out (to me anyway) is that
> the information used to describe me came straight from my drivers
> license.
> --
> Robert C. Shouse
Speaking only for myself, I'd print that letter out and have a
restraining order in force before your old instructor hits town,
so there would be something on the record just in case. Any cult
worth its salt will be taking lessons from the stuff Scientology
has been pulling. Best to get your sandbags filled before the
rain starts.
Joan
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
the Right Disreputable, Lady Wombat
Priscilla Asagiri Aerobic Fashions in Fiberglass
The Anna Madrigal Endowment for Pathological Forensics, 1967
Jeff Reichard
> Mike McKay
> Assistant National Instructor
> Chung Moo Doe
> Pittsburgh PA.
=Threatening message snipped=
If anyone had any doubts, Mr. McKay is _in fact_ a national instructor with
CMD. This article appeared in a another thread here on CMD. So much for
reasonable doubt.
Jeff
--
Jeff Reichard
j...@leland.stanford.edu
Data Center Operations
****Begin excerpt***
If you are interested, here is the article printed in the Daily Herald (a
Chicago suburban newpaper):
From the Chicagoland Daily Herald
Thursday, April 13, 1995
Martial arts schools' top brass charged with tax fraud
by
Laura Janota
Daily Herald Staff Writer
The top figures in a nationwide chain of martial arts schools were charged
Wednesday by federal authorities with an income tax fraud scam spanning
more
than 20 years.
=nasty details snipped=
Instructors Thomas Condon, 38, of Florida; Michael McKay, 34, of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pennsylvania; and Robert Sawinski, 34, of Washington, also were charged.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
tpa...@iag.net
> Speaking only for myself, I'd print that letter out and have a
> restraining order in force before your old instructor hits town,
> so there would be something on the record just in case. Any cult
> worth its salt will be taking lessons from the stuff Scientology
> has been pulling. Best to get your sandbags filled before the
> rain starts.
>
Why? Do you think that Assistant National Instructor Mike McKay is going to com to town and kick his butt? If he does, he has not
earned his position in Chung Moo. Chung Moo Doe is not in any way a cult. I should know, I am a student....
Any further questions? Send them my way... I have an open mind.
Tom
David L. Williams
: Why? Do you think that Assistant National Instructor Mike McKay is going to com to town and kick his butt? If he does, he has not
: Any further questions? Send them my way... I have an open mind.
: Tom
Ok Tom,
Hasn't the founder as well as Mr McKay been arrested on tax fraud? Along with
many of the other senior folks in the "organization"? Or was the post(s) about
this from newspaper articles inaccurate?
If the reports are true, I think Mr McKay has more on his "plate" right now.
Joan Tine
> > Speaking only for myself, I'd print that letter out and have a
> > restraining order in force before your old instructor hits town,
> > so there would be something on the record just in case. Any cult
> > worth its salt will be taking lessons from the stuff Scientology
> > has been pulling. Best to get your sandbags filled before the
> > rain starts.
> >
> Why? Do you think that Assistant National Instructor Mike McKay is
> going to com to town and kick his butt? If he does, he has not
> earned his position in Chung Moo.
It depends on your definition of the situation. To me, if someone who
was not a personal friend announced that he was going to re-surface in
+my+ life from another city, march into my space and correct my
thinking processes without asking my interest, my situation, or
obtaining my permission, I'd have him slapped with a restraining order
before he boarded the plane. I have no obligation to donate my time
to every loser with a mission.
> Chung Moo Doe is not in any way a cult. I should know, I am a
> student....
Yes, and that same thing could be said for members of any of the
generally accepted 'cult' organizations: as human beings with at least
a secondary education, they _should_ know better.
However, Jonestown and similar events prove that people often _don't_
know. If such _extreme_ cases can occur, I hold little hope of seeing
good judgement in the conduct of mere interpersonal
relations...especially from anyone who allows themself to accept
others' definitions of life.
I hold no opinion regarding CMD as a 'cult', since to me it is not
worth investigating. I feel this way because of the ignorance and
misinformation it has embraced regarding history. People who have no
respect for history are children; kids' games are only interesting to
developmental specialists and bunko narcs, and I'm neither. But any
organization which claims such prima facie nonsense isn't worth
_anybody_'s time.
Would you get all wanked out over someone selling last month's Lotto
tickets on a streetcorner who *guaranteed* each one was a winner in
this next drawing? Of course not. If he was really a problem, you'd
phone to have him carted away to an institution, but you wouldn't
waste time evaluating his claims, not if you had any real work to
spend your time on. So. The fact that any such claims can generate
lasting interest on this list is just a barometer of the youth of many
of the readership...sooner or later they'll get jobs and families and
have something better to do. Hopefully, they'll still practice
martial arts then (_real_ ones) and be responsible enough not to
squander their families' substance on overpriced cons.
> Any further questions? Send them my way... I have an open mind.
How would you know? This is a serious question: can you define _any_
test which, when a person takes it, will inform them reliably if they
do _not_ have an open mind? Unless you have such a method, that will
have to stand as an empty statement. This follows on a post I wrote
over a year ago: can anyone come up with a test which, if taken by a
fool, will reliably inform said fool that he _is_ a fool? Nobody was
up to _that_ one, either. The problem of subjectivity is a thorny
one, and the most ignorant and dangerous people are those, not who
_are_ subjective, since we all are, but who are unaware of the nature
of the problem, and can't take even token precautions when attempting
to make evaluations.
Julian M. Frost
> Why? Do you think that Assistant National Instructor Mike McKay
> is going to com to town and kick his butt? If he does, he has not
>
Ok!! An invitation!
I will send this via email too:
Tom,
What rank does Chong Su Nim "Iron" Kim hold in Aikido?
Who awarded him that rank?
With what organization is that rank registered?
Where did Mr Kim study Aikido?
For how long did Mr. Kim study Aikido?
What style of Japanese (Samurai) Swordmanship did Mr. Kim study?
Where did he study this style of swordsmanship?
Under which teacher?
How long did he study this system?
What rank does Mr Kim hold in this school?
With which organization is his rank registered?
What rank does Mr Kim hold in Judo?
Who was his teacher?
How long did he study Judo?
Where did he study Judo?
With which organization is his rank registered?
I look forward to receiving your replies either in email or here
on the net.
Thanks for your help in resolving these questions.