Kenpo Stick Question
Temujin.2
of the kenpo systems, if any, other than American Kenpo,
actually use it/teach it?
The reason behind my asking this question is that I have
read several posts on an internet news list that has
questioned the "kenpo stick" idea and Jeff Speakman's
useage of sticks in his movie "The Perfect Weapon".
I picked up the thread when a friend forwarded a copy of
the Eskrima Digest newsletter to me for my comments and
he specificly pointed out the following statement:
(I have deleted the author's name)
_________Forwarded Message______________
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:37:18 -0800
Subject: eskrima: "Kenpo sticks"
Greetings,
An issue or two ago XXXXXXXXXXXX wrote :
" He (Jeff Speakman) was quite insistent that the stick
techniques used in the movie were all from American Kenpo,
and referred to the sticks as "Kenpo sticks"."
My (the ED Poster) Observations,
When that movie first came out I was told by everyone that
it had Escrima in it. I watched it and said "Where?". Just
because you use a 28 inch rattan stick, or two sticks, or a
stick and knife does not mean it is Escrima or Filipino.
There are VERY distinct hallmarks to the FMA and Jeff Speakman's
stick work has none of them.
What I was looking for and did not see , that would have made
it Filipino: (1) Effective wrist angulation to create compound
attack lines (Attack by Combination for the JKD junkies).
(2) Effective (deceptive ) line transitions.(3) Attack lines
that create the opportunity for effective physical attachment
that would allow grappling or disarming (inherent in good
Sinawalli, by the way) (4) And lastly, stick techniques that have
an integrated stick/freehand relationship (inherent in good Sinawalli
as well).
______________End of Quote_______________
This is very definately a strong statement and I am wondering if
there anyone on this list who has had, or is currently training in
the FMAs? If so, would you be in agreement or disagreement regarding
the above statement?
I have now seen the movie twice, in fact I rented it just to
watch the stick fighting sequences, before I put forward this
question to the members of this news group.
Is there anyone within this readership who is an Americn Kenpo
student/instructor who has some training in "kenpo stick"? Was
this something that GM Ed Parker, taught as apart of the American
Kenpo System or is it an add on, through one or more of his black
belt instructors after his death? In short, tell us where the
"kenpo stick" concept came from, how did it become part of the
American Kenpo System.
I have read the entire "Infinate Insights into Kenpo" series, by GM
Parker, and I can not find any reference to "kenpo stick". However,
there are pictures of students defending themselves against an
overhead club attack: 'Obstructing the Storm'; that is followed by
an overhead knife defense: 'Raining Lance'. I can not find any
reference to 'kenpo stick' in any of the five volumes, nor within
the techniques listed through 3rd degree black belt in volume 5
of the series.
Your responses will be gratefully appriciated.
Adam
te...@c.com
wrote:
>I have a question: what is "kenpo stick" and which
>of the kenpo systems, if any, other than American Kenpo,
>actually use it/teach it?
refer to this url:
http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/ma/kempo.html
http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/ma/k-sticks.html
try asking the authors of the above kempo faq.
another version that actually teaches FMA in addition to kempo is:
http://www.uconect.net/~koshoryu/
http://www.uconect.net/~koshoryu/kobudo.html
a version of american kenpo that teaches kenpo sticks is:
http://kenpo.ltatum.com/ltatum/
i agree the version of american kenpo sticks appears totally different
than any FMA i've seen. however, i have successfully used some of the
kenpo stick things taught to me in basic arnis drills by an
intermediate arnis practitioner [this person trained at a school that
taught elements of aikido, kenpo, tae kwon do, gjj, arnis, etc.]. the
intermediate arnis person found it amazing i could utilize kenpo
sticks to basic arnis training. i only trained once with this person
so i forget what the official arnis names he used were. the kenpo
sticks version i learned, i believe, came from the Larry Tatum
lineage. another note: the way the kenpo sticks were taught in
self-defense technique situations is very different than the standard
way FMA teaches it; however, FMA is unique in that it doesn't have
self-defense teachnique scenarios like ed parker's kenpo.
i believe the version of kenpo displayed by Jeff Speaken in all his
movies is almost the same if not the same as what Larry Tatum teaches.
STEVE ZORN
away. That several includes "Speak with a Knife" a book about the Kenpo
knife and "Speak with a Club" a book about the Kenpo Sticks. His son Ed
Parker Jr. has these books but refuses to release them to the public.
Steve
STEVE ZORN
set. I heard that Gil Hibben also helped create the knife set. These
sets were the very last sets taught in the American Kenpo system, they
are known as Long 7 (stick) and Long 8 (knife). Ed Parker felt that
these sets contained the most dangerous and lethal aspects of Kenpo
therefore these sets were only taught to a handful of Kenpo blackbelts.
The Kenpo stick and knife arts were originally based on FMA. Ed Parker
learned the basics of FMA stick and knife arts and then altered it to
compliment his American Kenpo. If you ever get a chance to talk with Huk
Planas, he can fill you in on the FMA and Kenpo connection. Panther
Productions has a video on the Kenpo Stick set, and Joe Palanzo (sp?)
does to.
Steve
Temujin.2
Hello Steve,
A friend of mine talked with Huk Planas last month, at a seminar, and it
was his (Planas')comments, plus the eskrima digest posts about 'kenpo
stick'
that led me to put this question up for discussion. The fact that these
sets
- #7 & #8 exists is not at issue. The questions are who created then
and
exactly what is "kenpo stick"? How does kenpo stick relate to the
overall
context of American Kenpo and what , if any, relationship is there
between
"kenpo stick" and escrima. The comment that I quoted, in total and in
context,
casts some serious doubt on the validity of 'kenpo stick' within the
minds of
some people who are serious students of the FMAs.
In addition, if Mr. Speakman, was correctly quoted, then he is of the
opinion that "kenpo stick" is totally within the framework of American
Kenpo Karate and is not related the FMAs. Yet, there are numerous
Filipino-Hawaiians, such as Adriano Emperado and Sonny Gascon, who were
skilled escrimadors, who are known more for the kenpo variants that they
have founded. How can anyone say, with any defree of sincerity that
there is no escrima influences in the kenpo arts that emerged from
Hawaii
and were then taught on the mainland after WWII?
Credit needs to be given, where credit is due. If you are saying that
Mr. Parker, developed the "kenpo stick set", then it would seem that it
is Mr. Parker who also failed to properly credit the Filipino-Hawaiians.
Mr. Planas, in his conversation with my friend, stated that *it was not*
Mr. Parker, who first developed the 'kenpo stick set'. Thus the burden
for neglecting to properly credit belongs else where.
Regarding the Panther production video(s) on 'the kenpo stick set', I
would have to say that the one that I saw was not very impressive. I
have seen and worked with, Sensei Robert Austin, Dr. Jerome Barber,
Punong Guro Tom Bolden, Guro Dan Inosanto, Guro Chris Sayoc, GM Bobby
Taboada and Guro Jimmy Tacosa, in seminars and every one of these men,
were much better in their presentations than what I saw on the 'kenpo
stick set' video. All of these men connected the empty hand and the
stick into a unified whole. I can understand why the people on the
eskrima digest were not impressed with the 'kenpo stick work' that
appeared in "Perfect Weapon".
I can not speak out on the 'knife set' - Long #8 - I have seen it and
it is outside of the post that I wrote. No one on the eskrima digest
mentioned anything about 'kenpo knife'. BTW, that might make for a very
intersting seperate thread.
Thanks for your comments, it is always good to see/read a different
opinion, especially when it is well stated.
Respectfilly,
Adam Toussaint
RONIN®
> If you ever get a chance to talk with Huk
>Planas, he can fill you in on the FMA and Kenpo connection.
HUK PLANAS IS THE MAN!
RONIN® - The Unforgiven...
http://members.tripod.com/~kenpo_ronin/dragon.html
"Even in the face of armageddon,
there will be no compromise...Justice DOES matter..."
Joseph Abello
Kali/Escrima stick. One trademark of using the Kenpo stick are some of
the grips.
In Club Set, one of the grips that is demonstrated is a palm grip where
the grip is similar to a baseball player gripping a bat when he's
squaring around to bunt. The forefinger and the thumb grip the stick
while the other fingers support it as it rests against the inner wrist
and forearm.
Personally, I think it is one of the stupidist ways to hold the club
because the possibility of losing the weapon with that grip is great. I
prefer the grip that the Thai stick fighters use buy employing the
standard grip of locking the thumbs over the fingers and letting the
club rest underneath the hand and parallel to the arms. This is good
for in close fighting and provides more stability with the hand.
Shortening the length of the stick also defeats the purpose of having
it. You lose anywhere from 2-4 inches of range on a long range weapon
and turn what was once a long range weapon into a medium or even close
range weapon. Why do that when there are so many other weapons that
work much better for that range, such as a dagger for instance?
Anyway, those are my opinions. Somebody out there will most likely
disagree.
Temujin.2 wrote:
>
> I have a question: what is "kenpo stick" and which
> of the kenpo systems, if any, other than American Kenpo,
> actually use it/teach it?
>
KENPOJOE
As a practitioner of both American Kenpo and the Phillipino/Filipino arts, I'd
like to address some of the comments made in your response to Mr Zorn regarding
American Kenpo and the use of the "Kenpo Sticks"...
>. The questions are who created then
>and
>exactly what is "kenpo stick"? How does kenpo stick relate to the
>overall
>context of American Kenpo and what , if any, relationship is there
>between
>"kenpo stick" and escrima. The comment that I quoted, in total and in
>context,
>casts some serious doubt on the validity of 'kenpo stick' within the
>minds of
>some people who are serious students of the >FMAs.
First of all, The "Kenpo Club" has many aspects and techniques that separate it
from most of the "Traditional" arts of Arnis,Escrima and Kali. The Tailored
measurements of the Club [elaborated in Mr Parker's Book on Nunchaku for the
length of the club of the nunchaku ] is different than the standard tailored
measurements for sticks in any of the filipino arts i've studied or researched.
Also, in conversations with Mr. Parker over the time I knew him, His main
concern was the "stick to sword" relatitionship. He didn't agree with utilizing
many of the stick movements directly to the blade, especially where crossing
weapons was concerned. The use of the kenpo Club [as opposed to the
Baston/osili/etc..] is focused as an extention of the body, but also as a study
of the movements of the body with said weapon as an encyclopedia of motion in
regards to "unique" movements separate from the filipino arts. Also, the
vocabulary of terminology that was designed distinctly for American Kenpo [but
could be utilized by ANY art] in regards to Club handling.{NOTE: the use of the
term "Club" as opposed to "Stick"}
There will always be similarities in the laws of motion, but to say that Mr.
Parker simply mimiced actions of the filipino arts would be a falicy. In
regards to being "Valid", the techniques,form, and motions are certainly valid,
and as far as the american Kenpoists and the art in general having to
"validate" our system of Clubfighting to any member of the Filipino Martial
Arts community is ludicrious!
I am a member of the FMA community, having studied Kali,Modern
Arnis,ArnisLlanada,Arnis De AbanicoLlapunti and Serrada Escima, and I want to
make it perfectly clear that you will not find siniwalis,single stick disarms
from FMA, or sword and dagger drills in the Kenpo Club art.
>In addition, if Mr. Speakman, was correctly quoted, then he is of the
>opinion that "kenpo stick" is totally within the framework of American
>Kenpo Karate and is not related the FMAs.
Mr Speakman was correct in that statement. And having known Jeff and discussed
long seven as well as club set, [I'll never forget the look on his face when I
showed him that I had the paperwork for the club set!] we both have respect for
the FMA but agree that the kenpo stick has a different and modern mindset
regarding stickhandling.
> Yet, there are numerous
>Filipino-Hawaiians, such as Adriano Emperado and Sonny Gascon, who were
>skilled escrimadors, who are known more for the kenpo variants that they
>have founded. How can anyone say, with any defree of sincerity that
>there is no escrima influences in the kenpo arts that emerged from
>Hawaii
>and were then taught on the mainland after >WWII?
As a practitioner and Black Belt of both American Kenpo and Chinese-Hawaiian
Kenpo, I am well familiar with both Mr. Emperado and Mr. Gascon, however, only
recently did Adriano Emperado mention of his Filipino Martial Arts training,
and having studied a variant of Mr. Gascon's art, the Filipino influence in
that art at that time was minimal at best. since that time, Gentleman like
Bruce Corrigan have strived to reunite the Filipino influence in Karazenpo
Goshin Jutsu.
But, neither of these fine gentlemen have in the past or the present had a
major role in the development of American Kenpo in it's present state.
so I can say "with a degree of certainty & sincerity" that the escima
connection in American Kenpo is bare minimal at best.
>Credit needs to be given, where credit is due. If you are saying that
>Mr. Parker, developed the "kenpo stick set", then it would seem that it
>is Mr. Parker who also failed to properly credit the Filipino-Hawaiians.
Mr Prker had no reason for "crediting" any Philipino Hawaiian because they had
no major influence on his version of stickwork.
>Mr. Planas, in his conversation with my friend, stated that *it was not*
>Mr. Parker, who first developed the 'kenpo >stick set'. Thus the burden
>for neglecting to properly credit belongs >else where.
on this point, let me elaborate on my conversations with Mr. Planas [who I,
among many, consider on many points, The encyclopedia of kenpo] 1) Mr Planas
does not teach the Kenpo Club work,nor does he teach Form #7 or the Club Set.
2) most of Mr Planas's work is with the FMAs such as Kali,Carboan [sp]
system,serrada escima and balintawak. His approach is geared more towards
applying the phillipino arts to kenpo. not the reverse.
3)I asked and valued Mr. Planas's opinions in regards to the art I teach
[American-Phillipino Arnis/escrima/kali and I related that it teaches the
Filipino approach utilizing Mr. Parker's terminology while still keeping the
FMA roots
>Regarding the Panther production video(s) on 'the kenpo stick set', I
>would have to say that the one that I saw was not very impressive. I
>have seen and worked with, Sensei Robert Austin, Dr. Jerome Barber,
>Punong Guro Tom Bolden, Guro Dan Inosanto, Guro Chris Sayoc, GM Bobby
>Taboada and Guro Jimmy Tacosa, in seminars and every one of these men,
>were much better in their presentations than what I saw on the 'kenpo
>stick set' video. All of these men connected the empty hand and the
>stick into a unified whole. I can understand why the people on the
>eskrima digest were not impressed with the 'kenpo stick work' that
>appeared in "Perfect Weapon".
IMHO, mohammed Tabatabi's tape on long#7 is a shadow of the complete use of the
"Kenpo Club" and is not a valid representation of the Kenpo Clubhandling.
>I can not speak out on the 'knife set' - Long #8 - I have seen it and
>it is outside of the post that I wrote. No one on the eskrima digest
>mentioned anything about 'kenpo knife'. BTW, that might make for a very
>intersting seperate thread.
BTW, I do want to mention that Mr. Parker always had the highest respect for
filipino martial artists, having Ben Lagusa demonstrate at the first
internationals in 1964, as well as having Remy Presas demonstrate at a later
international Karate Championship at long beach. And remember,Adam...It was Ed
Parker who told Young Dan Inosanto that there was "Much more" to FMA that what
Dan then knew of the stick arts,and see where that led Guro Inosanto!
It definitely would make a great thread, and it was a pleasure writing to you
on this matter.
I hope that I was of some srvice.
"KENPOJOE" Rebelo
"The Truth,no matter Who is hurts, is still THE TRUTH!"
Temujin.2
Thank you very much for your fine detailed answer to the question
that I posed regarding the 'kenpo stick/club'. I will pass your
comments on to my friend who first sent me copies of the escrima digest
posting regarding the subject.
It is apprant from your comments that Mr. Parker, had some views
on the use of the stick/club that were at varience with the views of
some within the FMAs community. This is not necessarialy a bad thing,
so I will not comment any further.
Regarding your comment about Mr. Speakman, you have cleared up the
reasoning behind his statement as reported in the eskrima digest
post that I quoted and based on your earlier comments about Mr. Parker's
belief about the use of the stick/club, then there is a
natural, logical, transition from Mr. parker to mr. Speakman.
Your comments are truely appricated,, as are those of all of the others
who wrote replies to my original post.
Sincerely,
Adam Toussaint
RONIN®
>A friend of mine talked with Huk Planas last month, at a seminar,
Hey Adam! Was that the seminar in Lockport NY? I was there
too. A pretty good seminar but there wasn't enough time to into depth
really with anything. I've been to a few Planas seminars and when he
gets going it rocks. Time becomes something that is insignifigant and
you go for hours and hours but it feels like only 10 minutes and you
want to keep going.
KENPOJOE1
knife" because of the litigation that would follow from Mrs. Parker. Although
Ed jr. has the rights to have the texts, he doesn't nessicarily [sp] have the
right to publish them without Family permission.
I have been lucky enough to view a copy of "Speak with a Knife" from skip
hancock on one of his visits to teach and train an old instructor of mines, Mr
Leo Lacerte. Mr. Hancock was kind enough to let me look at the manuscript on
his laptop. I wrote an extensive post on it on the AOL Kempo/kenpo message
board.
I hope that I was of some service.
"KENPOJOE" Rebelo
KENPOJOE1
Joe abello [no distant relation] wrote...
>The Kenpo stick is nothing more than a shortened version of a
>Kali/Escrima stick.
actually, it's a lot more than that,but, for a basic description, it'll do...
> One trademark of using the Kenpo stick are >some of
>the grips.
The grips Mr. Abello are mentioned in Mr. Parker's Book on Nunchaku. and are
interchangable with the stick gripping methods.
>In Club Set, one of the grips that is demonstrated is a palm grip where
>the grip is similar to a baseball player gripping a bat when he's
>squaring around to bunt. The forefinger and the thumb grip the stick
>while the other fingers support it as it rests against the inner wrist
>and forearm.
The position you refer to is called the inverted [of contracted/retracted grip]
>Personally, I think it is one of the stupidist ways to hold the club
>because the possibility of losing the weapon with that grip is great
Actually, there is greater support with the stick braced along the length of
the forearm, enabling you to block with your re-enforced forearm . it also
enables you to snap and retract the stick quickly, I remember Mr. Parker
demonstrating this technique for police officers...from the contracted
position, with the arm at you side, you could thrust the pommel into your
opponent's solar plexus/zyphoid process, and then immediately snap/whip the
club into your opponent's groin with a flick of the wrist..." nipping the tip"
as he refered to it...
> I
>prefer the grip that the Thai stick fighters use buy employing the
>standard grip of locking the thumbs over the fingers and letting the
>club rest underneath the hand and parallel to the arms. This is good
>for in close fighting and provides more stability with the hand.
>
Sounds like you're still refering to the same grip I mentioned previously, as
far as the "thai" reference goes...are you possibly refering to the "thai pit
fighter" depicted in the film, "Rambo III"? [that was Harold Roth, who changed
his last name to Daimond] and the style he performed was something that Jeff
Imada and Harold put together for the film, based on Phillipino/filipino
arts...
>Shortening the length of the stick also defeats the purpose of having
>it. You lose anywhere from 2-4 inches of range on a long range weapon
>and turn what was once a long range weapon into a medium or even close
>range weapon.
the rationale is that the inverted weapon in that case is used as a defensive
weapon, or a shield to protect the forearm and re-enforce the blocking manuvers
against another weapon. It can be used against slashing blades as well. Either
as a extended icepick grip or contracted against the forearm. The positition
also avails you of hooking,trapping, vice -like actions for locks,chokes,and
strangulations.
Why do that when there are so many other weapons that
>work much better for that range, such as a dagger for instance?
>
I believe I've answered your questions.
>Anyway, those are my opinions. Somebody out there will most likely
>disagree
.
I did. But I didn't have to flame to get my point accross, But, as far as it
being
>one of the stupidist ways to hold the club
well, as Mr Parker said...
"Ignorance is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"
Caterbro
>>squaring around to bunt. The forefinger and the thumb grip the stick
>>while the other fingers support it as it rests against the inner wrist
>>and forearm.
please excuse my buttinksi. this grip sounds like a fencing grip(for a sword),
where the weapon lies parallel to the arm. is this correct?
RONIN®
>snap/whip the
>club into your opponent's groin with a flick of the wrist..." nipping the tip"
>as he refered to it...
I was wondering where that came from. I've heard it used to
describe the knife edge movment of the hand in "Dance Of Death."