Sin Kwang The' and Shaolin Do
jdh...@tgtel.com
Hey everyone, read this cut and past of "the bummers" post to me, then read
the 2 cut and pasts from Griff Warren, below. Hmmmmm...has "the bummer"
finally exposed himself?
From: the_b...@my-dejanews.comDate: 1998/06/02
Message-ID:<6kvk18$ni7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
>(Most of his writing is also indesperate need of a spell-checker)
From: Griff M. Warren II <Mory...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
To: James Hall <jdh...@tgtel.com>
Subject: Re: tai chi
Date: Monday, July 06, 1998 12:01 AM
>You should really learn to use your spell checker.
>Your writing is atrocious.
> From: Griff M. Warren II <Mory...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
> To: James Hall <jdh...@tgtel.com>
> Subject: Re: tai chi
> Date: Monday, July 06, 1998 10:22 PM
>Grandmaster Sin can speak 6 languages fluently
>and you can't even spell words in your native tongue properly. You're an
>idiot. HAHAHAHAHAHA
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the_b...@my-dejanews.com
jdh...@tgtel.com wrote:
>
> Hey everyone, read this cut and past of "the bummers" post to me, then read
> the 2 cut and pasts from Griff Warren, below. Hmmmmm...has "the bummer"
> finally exposed himself?
>
Hehe... (no i don't say "HAHAHAHAHA" - that's Griff)
I know you find it hard to believe, Mr. Hall. But, there are many people out
there who think you're an idiot. And obviously, they can also see that
you're a horrible speller. I know it's easy for you to pretend that i'm the
only one writing you, but face it: you're an asshole, and everyone is sick
of you. Griff obviously didn't know that you were thrown out of the art, or
i'm sure he would have made reference to it.
In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if YOU'RE the one using a dozen aliases. It
seems that your vendetta is so great that you're quite capable of doing
something like that.
You bag on Sin Kwang The because of the bad blood between he and his brother.
And I know you're still pissed about getting kicked out of the art... it
obviously bothers you a great deal.
You can pretend that everyone who disagrees with you is "the_bummer"...
that's fine. You just make yourself look like a bigger idiot.
Everything that Griff said was true, even if he sounded a bit pissed off. But
you're probably used to people communicating to you with that kind of
attitude. That's the way you have to talk to jerks like yourself sometimes.
I think he said it best when he stated that "you started all of this."
I wish i had thought up some of those comments he made, because quite
frankly, you ARE a "goof", a "pin head", and "a joke." I do believe,
however, that i called you a "loser" first. I also claim the fact that i
remarked about your awful spelling of the English language before he did.
However, Griff stole the show with the line:
"Grandmaster Sin can speak 6 languages fluently and you can't even spell words
in your native tongue properly..."
*kowtowing to Griff*
That was a classic! I had forgotten that Grandmaster The could speak 6
languages. What a beautiful comparison. Sure makes you look like an idiot.
Everyone already knows the kind of person that you are, James. You're a
bitter ex-student of Grandmaster The. Please refer to my previous letter
which describes your character and mentality... it's all true. You keep
proving it every day...
I've never seen someone who spends so much energy and talks so much bullshit
as yourself. So go ahead and do your little "letter dissection" as you have
with my letters in the past. That way you can extrapolate and manipulate the
text to your choosing...
p.s. get a life... (and a job)... (and a dictionary)
jdh...@tgtel.com
Bummer,
I know you don't like me, but why don't you take it up with me
personally? You know my e-mail address. Why do you feel the need to
trash me before the eyes of others. Be a man and take it up with me
personally and quit wasting space on the news group. I doubt they
care about our little war. Actually, I'd rather we were friends then
enemies. I have my believes about Sin The', and you have yours. I
did not attack you personally in my initial posts. I admit that I
did attack you later after your posts though. You have to admit that
your posts were not "friendly" and were a direct attack against me.
If you disagree with my opinions of Sin The', fine! Say so and why,
but there's no need for all this fighting and name calling. I
apologise for anything I said that directly attacked you, and will
not do it again. I hope you will do the same.
James
jdh...@tgtel.com
the_b...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <6nt6un$s8f$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> "Grandmaster Sin can speak 6 languages fluently and you can't even spell words
> in your native tongue properly..."
>
> *kowtowing to Griff*
> That was a classic! I had forgotten that Grandmaster The could speak 6
> languages.
Anyone that has met Sin Kwang The' knows that he cannot speak english very
well. He may be able to speak more then one language, but I would not say
"fluently" by a long shot. Most of the people at our dojo could not
understand him during tests. I know he CLAIMS 6 languages, but he also
claims to know 980 long forms. He's been known to "spread the truth". By
the way, what 6 does he speak? I know Chinese, English, and he claims
German. What are the other 3 he claims?
the_b...@my-dejanews.com
> Bummer,
>
> I know you don't like me, but why don't you take it up with me
> personally? You know my e-mail address. Why do you feel the need to
> trash me before the eyes of others. Be a man and take it up with me
> personally and quit wasting space on the news group. I doubt they
> care about our little war. Actually, I'd rather we were friends then
> enemies. I have my believes about Sin The', and you have yours. I
> did not attack you personally in my initial posts. I admit that I
> did attack you later after your posts though. You have to admit that
> your posts were not "friendly" and were a direct attack against me.
> If you disagree with my opinions of Sin The', fine! Say so and why,
> but there's no need for all this fighting and name calling. I
> apologise for anything I said that directly attacked you, and will
> not do it again. I hope you will do the same.
>
> James
(oh, the irony)
James,
i know you don't like Sin Kwang The, but why don't you take it up with him
personally? you know his address. why do you feel the need to trash him
before the eyes of others? be a man and take it up with him personally and
quit wasting space on the news group. i doubt that they care about your
little war. (sound familiar?)
everyone knows what you think of Grandmaster The and Shaolin Do, James. we
all know that you don't think Sin Kwang The is the Grandmaster of Shaolin.
we know you think he's lied about the amount of years it took him to black
belt. we know you think he doesn't know over 900 forms. we know that you
think Ie Chang Ming is his grandfather. We know you think that blah blah
blah, blah blah blah blah...
remember this well:
as long as you continue to make false accusations about Sin Kwang The, his
students will continue to defend him. And when you attack him personally, you
should expect others to attack YOUR character and YOUR integrity.
i didn't start out to personally attack you (like you did with Sin Kwang The),
but after your constant badgering of Shaolin Do and your improper,
unsubstantiated, and completely tactless posts of Grandmaster The, i felt that
everyone in this newsgroup (and as many others as i could find) should be
informed about your own ethics and history.
how can you be upset at people posting insulting information and personal
opinions about you when YOU DID THE SAME THING and are CONTINUING TO DO THE
SAME THING??? you put all this garbage on the internet and made so many
bullshit statements as if they were facts instead of your opinion. if you
have an opinion on Sin Kwang The, then you should leave it at that. how dare
you spread your suspicions and your beliefs about Sin Kwang The and then
COMPLAIN when someone does the same about you. I will say again, you are a
HYPOCRITE! Look it up if you don't know what it means.
I ASSURE YOU that once you refrain from posting the crap you've been writing,
all of Sin The's students WILL DO THE SAME. you and i have read posts from
students in Kentucky, Northridge, Atlanta, Boise, Denver, etc., etc., etc...
Sin Kwang The's students will no longer allow your words to go uncontested.
peace.
David Williams
: everyone knows what you think of Grandmaster The and Shaolin Do, James. we
: all know that you don't think Sin Kwang The is the Grandmaster of Shaolin.
Sin Kwang The is NOT the Grandmaster of Shaolin, if there could be such a
thing today.
He is the Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do, a martial arts system based in
Indonesia, with some ties to Chinese Martial Arts.
These days everyone is a GM of something or other. Sin Kwang The would
have to stand in line behind all the other guys using the same "title",
even within the collection of arts that utilize the name Shao lin.
So he certainly is the head of the style you folks practice.
later...
--
David Williams mailto:d...@wingchun.com
Planet Wing Chun http://www.wingchun.com/
Bay Area Wing Chun Association http://www.thesphere.com/SJWC
Justin White
of the shaolin monasteries in china, the monks revered him as their
grandmaster. also, i thought shaolin-do was china-based, with some
ties to indonesia. your thoughts?
David Williams
: I may be completely qring about this, but i heard that on his tour
: of the shaolin monasteries in china, the monks revered him as their
: grandmaster. also, i thought shaolin-do was china-based, with some
: ties to indonesia. your thoughts?
I doubt that.
The Shaolin temples these days are great tourist attractions.
I'm sure they are quite gracious to those who tour and to those who
pay $ to have monuments put up on their grounds, as Instructor's
David & Sharon Soard did on their trip there.
Sin Kwang The is from Indonesia, as is his brother Hiang.
"Shao-lin Do" claims lineage from the Shao-lin temple in China.
But the name of their style, ie Shao-lin Do was invented according to
them to "mask" the fact that it was a Chinese system. So Karate uniforms,
Karate Ranking systems and "Do" as in Karate Do, was used to supposedly
mask the fact that this was supposedly a Chinese based martial art from
Indonesian authorities. I guess the "authorities must be exceedingly
STUPID to be fooled by ethnic Chinese folks performing a martial art.
Hidden only by the word "Do" and japanese uniforms. But thats another
story.
:>Sin Kwang The is NOT the Grandmaster of Shaolin, if there could be such a
:>thing today.
:>
:>He is the Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do, a martial arts system based in
:>Indonesia, with some ties to Chinese Martial Arts.
:>
:>These days everyone is a GM of something or other. Sin Kwang The would
:>have to stand in line behind all the other guys using the same "title",
:>even within the collection of arts that utilize the name Shao lin.
:>
:>So he certainly is the head of the style you folks practice.
:>
:>later...
--
mikel evins
jgw...@fas.harvard.edu writes:
> I may be completely qring about this, but i heard that on his tour
> of the shaolin monasteries in china, the monks revered him as their
> grandmaster. also, i thought shaolin-do was china-based, with some
> ties to indonesia. your thoughts?
A better description of the events would be that
Sin The's students David and Sharon Soard paid
for a stone tablet to be erected at Shaolin, similar
to a number of other talbets that have been erected
there as a money-making operation for the Temple. The
people paying for the tablet get to decide what's
on it; they chose to put Sin The's name on it
along with theirs, and they chose to take him along
with them to the ceremony where he could make a
speech and be photographed.
The idea that "the monks revered him as their
grandmaster" sounds like the sort of distortion
that gets introduced into a story after it has
passed through some number of retellings.
jdh...@tgtel.com
the_b...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>we
> all know that you don't think Sin Kwang The is the Grandmaster of Shaolin.
I've never once said that. In fact, I've said it a few times that he IS the
grandmaster of Shaolin Do.
>we know you think he's lied about the amount of years it took him to black
> belt. we know you think he doesn't know over 900 forms. we know that you
> think Ie Chang Ming is his grandfather.
Yes I do think this.
>
> remember this well:
> as long as you continue to make false accusations about Sin Kwang The, his
> students will continue to defend him.
And have you proven that they are false yet? Have you done ANY of the
research I suggested? What proof do you have that his claims are true? Most
legit kung fu teachers at least have a picture of them standing next their
teacher seated. Sin doesn't even seem to have that. I've not seen a single
photo of Master Ie, let alone one of him and Sin together. Don't you find
that odd? We have pictures of Su Kong (master Ie's teacher) but not a single
photo of Master Ie? Only paintings?
>And when you attack him personally, you
> should expect others to attack YOUR character and YOUR integrity.
Go ahead and attack. Just do it in an adult manner (if such a thing is
possible). Send it to ME and quit wasting space here.
>
> i didn't start out to personally attack you
Uh...yes you did. Your very first post was an attack. In fact, it's the only
posts you seem to have ever made on this newsgroup.
>you and i have read posts from
> students in Kentucky, Northridge, Atlanta, Boise, Denver, etc., etc., etc...
> Sin Kwang The's students will no longer allow your words to go uncontested.
Huh? You and supoman are the only ones I remember. Wasn't you that said I
was "taking advantage of the fact that I was uncontested" on this newsgroup?
Which is it? Look, as I said before, I've got my opinions and doubts of Sin
The's claims, and I think about 75 percent of the people that got involved
with this thread had some doubts about him to. I wanted to get info from
others that have had bad experieces with Shaolin Do, and share my own witht
them. I'm not out there teaching this stuff makeing claims about it. Sin
The' is. If he's a bad person, others might want to know about it. If you
want to share your positive experiences, fine. If you want to dicount mine
or other's negative experiences, fine. But keep it polite, and stop with the
personal attacks. Attacking me is not going to prove your point. It only
makes you and Sin The's schools look worse.
jdh...@tgtel.com
jgw...@fas.harvard.edu (Justin White) wrote:
> I may be completely qring about this, but i heard that on his tour
> of the shaolin monasteries in china, the monks revered him as their
> grandmaster. also, i thought shaolin-do was china-based, with some
> ties to indonesia. your thoughts?
Sin The' did visit the shaolin temple, and there was a ceremony for him and
a stone tablet put up with his name on it. But what he fails to tell anyone
is that ANYONE can do this if they pay the monks 1500 dollars. In fact, the
stone tablet that was put up was not really for him, but for 2 of his
students (David and Sharon Soard). They paid 1500 dollars for it, and it is
THEIR names that are on the top of the stone in large bold letters. Sin
The's name is on the very bottom in very small print, only to show the
lineage. I pointed this out on the newsgroup awhile back. One of his web
sites and a photo of the stone on it, and when I pointed that little fact out
with the site address, the picture was immediately removed from the web site.
He also fails to mention that there are close to 20 of these stones up now,
some to tae kwon do clubs.
Justin White
a few pictures of all three in the main hall in lexington. i think
the place is called sin the's gym. I haven't been there myself,
but i've seen pictures of the pictures hanging(!). not quite a
valid counter-argument, however the proof might be there in his
home dojo...
jdh...@tgtel.com
Shaolin Temples is the White Eyebrow system of kung-fu. That system isbased
on human movements and was not studied by the monks in the ShaolinTemple
(at least to my knowledge). I'm sure 7th degree Black Belt SeniorMasters
Sharon and David Soard of Denver, Colorado would have betterinformation on
that.
-------------------------------------
White eyebrow, as I have heard, also came from the Shaolin Temple. Sin's
book, Secrets from the Temple, states that White eybrow came from the head
monk at the Omei temple. His name was Chi Tao Su and also known as Pai Mei
Lao Jen. He was the traitor that helped destroy the Fukien Temple in Su
Kong's time. This is found on pages 8 and 9 of his book. I am not of this
opinion though since White eybrow style is so close to Southern Mantis,
White Tiger, and Southern Dragon styles. They are so similair that they
must of had a common origin. White tiger, southern dragon, and Southern
Mantis all claim liniage to a monk from the fukien temple, so it very
likely that White eybrow also came from here. Are you one of David and
Sharon's students?
jdh...@tgtel.com
jgw...@fas.harvard.edu (Justin White) wrote:
> In response to this, there's quite
> a few pictures of all three in the main hall in lexington. i think
> the place is called sin the's gym. I haven't been there myself,
> but i've seen pictures of the pictures hanging(!). not quite a
> valid counter-argument, however the proof might be there in his
> home dojo...
>
(Master Ie's teacher). The painting next to is a painting of Master Ie with
Sin's brother, Master Haing The'. No photo's of Master Ie. Only paintings.
And the painting of Master Ie is with Master Haing, not Sin The'.
Justin White
I'm sorry, I should have introduced myself! My name is Justin White,
and am a student of Mr. David Dance in Shaolin-Do. Dance was
actually a student of The's brother, Hiang, but it seems like most
students claimed allegiance to the SDA after the schism occured
between Sin and Hiang. <-- That's a whole 'nother can o' beans
I'd rather not discuss here! Anyway, I'm still trying to piece
together all of these lineages, and not just in our own
system.
This may be off the topic a bit, but do you know about Hung Gar(sp?)
I think it was created by renegade monks, and is also a southern
style, so the a lightbulb lit up over my head when you wrote about
renegade monks. your thoughts on this?
I hate to admit this, but I can't claim to know much about these
lineages because I don't believe most of what's written in many
MA history books. Example: It's come to a virtual consensus
that Pa Kua's roots are obscured by the deliberate anonymity of the
monks who created it, however, several books on the subject trace
it back to the Honan temple where many other interal arts were
practiced, and some even give names of individual monks!
There's a lot going on in the background that I don't have a clear
picture of, so i've just been fu-ing lately!
Thanks for your insight!
>White eyebrow, as I have heard, also came from the Shaolin Temple. Sin's
>book, Secrets from the Temple, states that White eybrow came from the head
>monk at the Omei temple. His name was Chi Tao Su and also known as Pai Mei
>Lao Jen. He was the traitor that helped destroy the Fukien Temple in Su
>Kong's time. This is found on pages 8 and 9 of his book. I am not of this
>opinion though since White eybrow style is so close to Southern Mantis,
>White Tiger, and Southern Dragon styles. They are so similair that they
>must of had a common origin. White tiger, southern dragon, and Southern
>Mantis all claim liniage to a monk from the fukien temple, so it very
>likely that White eybrow also came from here. Are you one of David and
>Sharon's students?
>
jdh...@tgtel.com
jgw...@fas.harvard.edu (Justin White) wrote:
> :
>
> I'm sorry, I should have introduced myself! My name is Justin White,
> and am a student of Mr. David Dance in Shaolin-Do. Dance was
> actually a student of The's brother, Hiang, but it seems like most
> students claimed allegiance to the SDA after the schism occured
> between Sin and Hiang. <-- That's a whole 'nother can o' beans
> I'd rather not discuss here! Anyway, I'm still trying to piece
> together all of these lineages, and not just in our own
> system.
>
> This may be off the topic a bit, but do you know about Hung Gar(sp?)
> I think it was created by renegade monks, and is also a southern
> style, so the a lightbulb lit up over my head when you wrote about
> renegade monks. your thoughts on this?
>
> I hate to admit this, but I can't claim to know much about these
> lineages because I don't believe most of what's written in many
> MA history books. Example: It's come to a virtual consensus
> that Pa Kua's roots are obscured by the deliberate anonymity of the
> monks who created it, however, several books on the subject trace
> it back to the Honan temple where many other interal arts were
> practiced, and some even give names of individual monks!
>
> There's a lot going on in the background that I don't have a clear
> picture of, so i've just been fu-ing lately!
>
> Thanks for your insight!
>
Sorry, I don't know very much about Hung gar or its origins. Seems like I
remember reading that it was family or village system somewhere, anyone else
know about hung gar?
tom...@itiseasy.com
System, but you must remember that there is more than one system of Shaolin.
At anyone time there were several Grandmasters of Shaolin in china at anyone
time. No he is not the Grandmaster of the still function Honan Shaolin
Temple,,,but He is the Grandmaster of the Fukien Temple. This temple was
destroyed but Grandmaster Sin The is in charge of the System that came from
this Temple,,,It is just under a different name. I do not follow Grandmaster
Sin,,,but I do know my lineage and most of its background,,,,this system is
not derived from a chinese martial art,,,It is a Chinese martial art.
In article <6pp23s$qfe$2...@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
David Williams <wing...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
> the_b...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> : everyone knows what you think of Grandmaster The and Shaolin Do, James. we
> : all know that you don't think Sin Kwang The is the Grandmaster of Shaolin.
>
> Sin Kwang The is NOT the Grandmaster of Shaolin, if there could be such a
> thing today.
>
> He is the Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do, a martial arts system based in
> Indonesia, with some ties to Chinese Martial Arts.
>
> These days everyone is a GM of something or other. Sin Kwang The would
> have to stand in line behind all the other guys using the same "title",
> even within the collection of arts that utilize the name Shao lin.
>
> So he certainly is the head of the style you folks practice.
>
> later...
> --
> David Williams mailto:d...@wingchun.com
> Planet Wing Chun http://www.wingchun.com/
> Bay Area Wing Chun Association http://www.thesphere.com/SJWC
>
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