Shotokan more effective than Kyokushin????
justin
Like so many other people, Machida made me become interested in
classic karate styles again. And these days there are many shotokan
kumite clips on youtube. Before I was a big Kyokushin fan , but
seeing those shotokan fights where people actually can target the face
( i know it's not to the full effect but still) it seems to me that
shotokan could potentialy be more effective than kyokushin.
Now I know kyokushin in old times targeted the face and therefore was
the strongest karate, but given the current tournament regulation in
each style , isn't shotokan the more effective style given that the
head is a valid target?
I really like to hear people's views on this, so please go nuts :)
Cheers,
Justin
justin
Just wanted to emphasize I am not comparing shotokan to kickboxing,
muay thai or any MMA just purely to kyokushin as it is practised
currently.
YumYumPandaburger
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
Did you see Sam Greco (K1 fighter, based in Kyokushin) vs Machida?
Greco tooled Machida in stand-up (for just a few seconds obviously, as
Machida knew damn well he had to take him down asap). He took McDonald
(B-level K1 fighter at best) down asap as well. Didn't want no part of
standing up against these better strikers.
And I can promise you if he ever gets to meet Manhoef in MMA he will
take him down asap as well.
Machida is very 'elusive' in MMA, but if you look purely at stand-up
he would not stand a chance in a kickboxing ring against real top
level fighters.
Without his skill in thaiboxing and BJJ he would not look spectacular
in MMA either. His karate is like the cheese on a spagetti bolognese.
You can eat it without, but it looks nicer with the cheese.
I'm hungry now, going to grab some snack.
Lode
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Off- topic: Spaghetti bolognese is not widely known outside of
Belgium. Italian collegues of mine, when confronted with this
particular dish, seemed rather perplexed. After examination, they
considered it to be more of a 'ragout' than a pasta dish. And agreed
it is most definitely not from Bologna.
On-topic: I used to practice Shotokan, I now do Kyokushin (amonst
others). Kyokushin wins IMO.
YumYumPandaburger
Not relevant, I'll be going for a sandwich in a couple of minutes.
Maybe I'll take one with mozarella and pesto, not sure yet.
> On-topic: I used to practice Shotokan, I now do Kyokushin (amonst
> others). Kyokushin wins IMO.
In full contact the full contact sport will prevail over the non-full
contact one.
I once watched a local shotokan tournie, one guy came in, knocked out
his opponent. Took a few minutes before the guy that got KO'd got up
to receive his medal (as the other guy was "too violent")...
YumYumPandaburger
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
FYI just got the mozarella + pesto sandwich. Plus a yoghurt (berry
favour, full fat obviously)
Appledog
wrote:
>
> Without his skill in thaiboxing and BJJ he would not look spectacular
> in MMA either. His karate is like the cheese on a spagetti bolognese.
> You can eat it without, but it looks nicer with the cheese.
>
> I'm hungry now, going to grab some snack.
Erm, that's 'a snack'; or alternately, 'some snacks'.
You're welcome :^)
-
YumYumPandaburger
Irrelevant, I went and got myself a sandwich.
justin
wrote:
I was hoping to leave Machida out of the discussion since I do
understand that he is an mma fighter, I just wanted the comparision
between kyokushin and shotokan. Since you brought it up though, in
the Evans fight, who is a great striker, he dominated with his stand
up game. So I am not sure I buy that argument completely.
Cheers,
Rob
shuu...@gmail.com
> Like so many other people, Machida made me become interested in
> classic karate styles again. And these days there are many shotokan
> kumite clips on youtube. Before I was a big Kyokushin fan , but
> seeing those shotokan fights where people actually can target the face
> ( i know it's not to the full effect but still) it seems to me that
> shotokan could potentialy be more effective than kyokushin.
Of course a lot depends on the practitioner and his training, but
generally speaking if you're looking for all-around fighting
preparedness, kyokushin is the superior system. Certainly the no
punches to the face thing is a disadvantage; but kyokushin is a style
that is based around full contact fighting. It has been influenced by
boxing, kickboxing, and basically anything else that they've run into
the works.
Shotokan on the other hand is based on learning watered-down versions
of forms and then trying to force the movements of those forms to work
in a kickboxing environment. Some people can make it work - Machida
for example... but the ones who do tend to go off on their own and
learn other full contact systems - Machida for example.
> Now I know kyokushin in old times targeted the face and therefore was
> the strongest karate, but given the current tournament regulation in
> each style , isn't shotokan the more effective style given that the
> head is a valid target?
Not really, mostly because kyokushin has been built around fighting
with contact, whereas in shotokan contact is simply a means to
validate forms that aren't being done right to begin with.
justin
I hear what you are saying, but maybe shotokan has been watered down
in North America. Look at this clip for instance (after the first
minute).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_zmL6BRCOA
Honest to good this sparring looks more brutal to me thank
kyokusing , one of the guys is bleeding for gods sake :).
Anway this is just my preception,
Justin
shuu...@gmail.com
> > Not really, mostly because kyokushin has been built around fighting
> > with contact, whereas in shotokan contact is simply a means to
> > validate forms that aren't being done right to begin with.
>
> I hear what you are saying, but maybe shotokan has been watered down
> in North America. Look at this clip for instance (after the first
> minute).
>
> kyokusing , one of the guys is bleeding for gods sake :).
One of the guys has what looks like a split lip... in all
seriousness, that is something that happens when kids play fight in
grade school. What you are seeing in that video is not fighting; it's
medium contact sparring. A couple of split lips or bloody noses are
bound to occur, but that means very little.
YumYumPandaburger
I don't think you can consider Evans a top striker. Not by a long
shot. Most guys in US MMA are wrestlers of BJJ'ers that started
striking very late, you cannot compare them to someone who started
training at age 3. Or to someone who trains striking exclusively.
But leaving Machida and MMA out of the equation, if you plan to fight
full contact you should train full contact. Also there are other types
of karate that combine some of the in-and-out of range movements of
shotokan with the full contact approach of kyokushin. Check ashihara
or enshin.
Slim
ITS THE FIGHTER NOT THE STYLE!
--
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in
England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after
all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it
is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to
the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL
THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY
COUNTRY."
�
--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials
YumYumPandaburger
> ITS THE FIGHTER NOT THE STYLE!
BULLSHIT !
Herbert Cannon
I once watched a local shotokan tournie, one guy came in, knocked out
his opponent. Took a few minutes before the guy that got KO'd got up
to receive his medal (as the other guy was "too violent")...
Must be European.
Lode
What a stupid comment. Must be American.
Seriously though, that the best you could come up with?
Lode
justin
I guess my real question is, is it better to have a semi contact
system allowing face punches or a full contact system disallowing
them? Which one would be more useful in a real fight.
To me it's not at all clear that the full contact disallowing face
punches would be a better system .
Herbert Cannon
"Lode" <lode...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3ecf101d-22be-4be0...@e21g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
No.
Shuurai
> I guess my real question is, is it better to have a semi contact
> system allowing face punches or a full contact system disallowing
> them? Which one would be more useful in a real fight.
The one the incorporates full contact is more useful in a real fight.
The ability to hit with real power and to take a hit is extremely
important when it comes to real fighting; more important than any
specific target. You can get past the "no punches to the face thing"
a lot easier than you can the "no hitting with power anywhere" thing.
> To me it's not at all clear that the full contact disallowing face
> punches would be a better system .
Step into the ring with a semi-contact guy and then with a full
contact guy. Whether or not face punches are allowed, it will very
quickly become clear. A full power shot to the body trumps a pulled
punch to the face every time.
justin
cool, I am not going to disagree with that. But kyokusin kumites just
look so silly , sigh :S
YumYumPandaburger
Don't be envious, after all if we Europeans didn't invade the
America's a few hundred years ago you might have invented stuff such
as the wheel and penicillin by yourselves by now :-)
savvaspe...@gmail.com
It's the individual and not the style.
Though in shotokan we practise hitting but we do not practise getting hit as kyokushin training. A real kyokushin dojo teaches makiwara, tameshiwara and ikken issatu mentality.
All other things equal, in a dojo kumite bout between two elite athletes a kyokushin fighter will win
Today Shotokan like goju, wado, shito ryu have softened their budo karate as a result of promoting sports karate. Our kata and kihon is superior because we train and allocate more time to this aspect of karate do
OFCOURSE dojo kumite is different but a hardened full contact elite athlete has that advantage. In kumite, budo karate prevails.
Shotokan is a more dynamic kumite style but kyokushin is stronger because their allocation to contact kumite is greater
In 1990 I was SKIA CHAMPION.and a junior fako( now akf) national champion
In 1990 Sam Greco was kyokushin champion
No chance between the two of us in kumite
He would have won because of budo preparation in his kumite training. He has practised years of makiwara and tameshiwara.
As a student of Kanazawa Sensei, Kasuya Sensei and Frank Nowak Sensei for All these years and not once did we do this.
In the 3 years I trained under Stan Zimmerman Sensei I practised a lot of hitting and getting hit.
Now that I am 43 I get 'beat' by the faster sports karate athletes when we train sports karate.
Though humbly I say, I beat them when we practise dojo kumite simply because of the ability to take a blow and inflict a stronger technique when I strike
With respects to Sam Greco, I would have beat him in kata competition and my kihon might have looked sharper but to hit and knockout u must practise to hit and knock out. He would have cleaned me up like my wife's omo washing powder
Having intention is different to having done. At my dojo now a young shotokan 2nd dan won the lightweight akf nationals. He would have no chance against his equivalent kyokushin champion.
We can't compare say a Yahara or Tanaka sensei with Sam Greco because again this would not have been an equal match OFCOURSE the Japanese masters would have won.
Oyama vs Kase?????
Only God knows
That's my bit dudes
Ossu to all martial artists who are true, humble and dedicated to all styles from all over the world
A...@bi.edu.kw
Rabid Weasel Lawson
> I don't think any of you really understand shotokan karate do.
Timo
I don't think any of you really understand shotokan karate do. You are all comparing kyokoshin with sports karate. Sport karate is NOT a budo martial art.
How common is full-contact sparring in Shotokan?
> Traditional Shotokan along with the other traditional styles of karate are brutal and like ju jitsu use effective killing and maiming techniques. Shotokan karateka practice these all the time. We cannot use them for real unless in a war situation.
I question the logic of "we know our techniques are deadly because we don't use them". "We don't use certain techniques in sparring because of the (assumed) danger" is OK. The ultimate expression of this is non-contact sparring. A valid training choice. IMO, a less efficient (but less painful) way to train for fighting.
Training in a bastard son of Shotokan, with "non-contact" sparring, I'm happy enough with the training regime. Non-contact sparring should be supplemented with various partner drills (for close-range stuff that doesn't get used in sparring) and bagwork.
TimR
>
> Hmm. They were (many years ago) comparing Kyokushin with karate where sparring is absent, non-contact, or semi-contact. I don't think you should classify all such karate as "sport karate".
>
Most of us with any amount of common sense will never have a "real fight." So all our injuries will come from training. So the most realistic and effective training gives no additional benefit at enormously increased pain, injury, and disability in our later ages.
Just saying.
Rabid Weasel Lawson
> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 3:44:27 PM UTC-5, Timo wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Hmm. They were (many years ago) comparing Kyokushin with karate where sparring is absent, non-contact, or semi-contact. I don't think you should classify all such karate as "sport karate".
>
> >
>
>
>
> The more brutal the training, the more effective it will be in a "real fight," and the more injuries you will get while training.
>
>
>
> Most of us with any amount of common sense will never have a "real fight." So all our injuries will come from training.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
TimR
BUT! Some of us lack sufficient common sense. And one of the symptoms of lacking common sense is the inability to recognize that we lack common sense.
So you might not want to risk it.
Timo
>
> The more brutal the training, the more effective it will be in a "real fight," and the more injuries you will get while training.
>
> Most of us with any amount of common sense will never have a "real fight." So all our injuries will come from training. So the most realistic and effective training gives no additional benefit at enormously increased pain, injury, and disability in our later ages.
But it's a sensible argument about the utility of MA as training for self-defense. There are alternatives with lower risk per unit self-defense benefit.
I've averaged close to one fracture per year of active training. Lower risk per hour of training than sports I've had the joy of fractures from. So not too bad.
gordonb...@gmail.com
GJ
wrote:
>You block many times, you strike once, and gingerly walk away.
TimR
<. Shotokan is much more self defence based. You block many times, you strike <once, and gingerly walk away.
If you watch a boxing match or MMA fight, you'll see people get hit 100 times. Now, I'll grant they are probably a bit tougher than average. But for sure they've learned how to hit very hard, harder than most of us can.
Mighty Wannabe
>
>
>
> If you watch a boxing match or MMA fight, you'll see people get hit 100 times.
> Now, I'll grant they are probably a bit tougher than average.
> But for sure they've learned how to hit very hard, harder than
> most of us can.
moves just enough to pass off as fighters. They train mainly in the
weight room, so Of course they can hit harder than most of us can, Your
Silliness.
Aaron W. Hsu
> I suspect that many people overestimate their ability to end a fight
> with one strike.
party is really trying to kill the other, I've seen some and heard more
examples of those fights ending with a carefully controlled
strike. Usually the single strike comes from an obviously superior
fighter who simply isn't panicking. On the other hand, it's a sad day
when a gym trains someone assuming that one strike suffices
in all or even most fights.
--
Aaron W. Hsu | arc...@sacrideo.us | http://www.sacrideo.us
לֵ֤ב חֲכָמִים֙ בְּבֵ֣ית אֵ֔בֶל וְלֵ֥ב כְּסִילִ֖ים בְּבֵ֥ית שִׂמְחָֽה׃
Timo
(In practice, there are likely to more blows, because the opponent will, if wise, hit them a few more times just to make sure.)