Taoist Tai Chi sets ..help!
Wayne Taylor
society. Good workout but slow in the evolution of my
development.
What I would like is a chart of the full set of movements.
As I have seen it displayed in various venues but am unable to
locate a copy for myself, I am asking if anyone knows where I can
download this chart.. or at least a website I can visit that
displays one?
Thanks in advance,
Diane
w...@telus.net
Edward Cha
to learn all 108 or so movements as soon as possible, doing nothing for
my actual ability or understanding of the movements. Just practice what
you know, and try and understand the intricacies of each movement by
practicing hard and practicing smart.
What do you mean by 'Taoist Tai Chi,' though? Is it a completely
different form of Tai Chi from the well known Yang, Chen, Wu, Hao, and
Sun styles? Incidentally, I have seen various charts of the movements
for the first three of these.
Edward
: I have recently enrolled in a local chapter of Taoist Tai Chi
Wayne Taylor
I understand there are several variations of Tai Chi. The one offered
locally is from the international Taoist Tai Chi Society (www.taoist.org) and
was founded in Canada by Master Moy Lin-shin of the Hua Shan school of Taoism
in China. The main reason why I enrolled in this version is because the is a
rather large (local) support group that comes with membership.
I would assume that the moves would be similar from discipline to discipline.
As a reference point, I am still interested in some sort of pictogram of the
movements to hang on my wall.
Diane
**
Edward Cha
large or small? About how many movements would you estimate are involved
in the entire form? If your answer is:
1. Large and 88-108, then you might want to look for a book about the
Long Form in 'Yang Style Tai Chi.'
2. Large and 24 or so, then you probably want 'the Yang Style short form'
or 'simplified Tai Chi'
3. Small movements probably point to the Wu style, which I'm not terribly
familiar with.
However, I suspect that the Taoist Tai Chi you are learning is yet
another style of Tai Chi that was probably modified later on, or at
least given a new form. If that is the case... then I doubt there is
any poster or literature on it.
I personally have bought books from China (when I was in China) which
have very nice diagrams of various Tai Chi forms, but there are many
kinds of them. Unfortunately, I'm still thinking about ways of procuring
books from China while in the States.
Have you asked your teacher about a poster or a book? I'm sure he would
have something to say about it.
Good luck in practice!
Ed
: Thanks for your encouragement, Edward.
Kevin Hill
> I understand there are several variations of Tai Chi. The one offered
> locally is from the international Taoist Tai Chi Society (www.taoist.org) and
> was founded in Canada by Master Moy Lin-shin of the Hua Shan school of Taoism
> in China. The main reason why I enrolled in this version is because the is a
> rather large (local) support group that comes with membership.
> I would assume that the moves would be similar from discipline to discipline.
Unfortunately I think you would be wrong.
I live in Ontario; TVO used to run 'taoist tai chi society'
instructional
stuff, and as far as I can tell they've completely changed things.
Apparently it's only 'for health', but they do a number of things that
are just plain old Wrong with a capital R. Like lean out during the
press part of brush knee, so that they couldn't include peng jin even
if they knew what it was, which they show no evidence of knowing.
I'm dubious that there are even health benefits to what they do, as I
personally believe that without the alignments right you are probably
stressing joints in a way taijiquan shouldn't.
If you want to learn taijiquan, find a teacher who teaches that. The
taoist tai chi society, as far as I've seen, doesn't.
:o)
Kevin
Oliver Richman
news:3BAD4BA1...@telus.net...
> I have recently enrolled in a local chapter of Taoist Tai Chi
> society. Good workout but slow in the evolution of my
> development.
Son, let me give you a nickel's worth of free advice. Ditch em.
They're lying to you, they are not teaching you Tai Chi. They are teaching
you Liu He Ba Fa. And now that their founder has passed on, it will be fery
very difficult to learn well from them.
Their purpose is to spread interest in chinese culture and improve people's
health. Nothing more.
On the other hand, If that's what you want, then I still reccomend finding
another club since chi kung taught properly is better for your health than
taoist tai chi.
Good luck!
-frl
Dmitri
Diane, please listen to what Kevin is saying.
I've spent over 4 years in a "tai chi" school before I realized just
how little real taiji they taught and how big of a waste of time,
money and effort that was for me. I was lucky enough to not damage my
joints, but in any case I'd be much better off doing something else
all that time.
If you're interested in health aspects -- find some school that
teaches Qigong; but make sure to get references from a couple of
long-term students of that school before you join.
If you're interested in Taijiquan (which is a martial art, by the way,
not just an exercise for health) -- then find a good taiji school (not
easy, but possible.)
But do not settle for a surrogate school; learn from my mistakes.
Regards,
Dmitri
No Problem
"Oliver Richman" <fr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:9Ixr7.77927$sM1.20...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
Oliver Richman
"No Problem" <nop...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:8X3s7.20024$GQ2.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> what is Liu He Ba Fa?
Liu He Ba fa is also known as "Six Harmonies and Eight Movements".
It is a style of martial arts which Moy Lin Shin learned. When Moy Lin-Shin
came to Canada, he knew that liu he ba fa wasn't nearly as popular as tai
chi, so he took the yang style 108 movement form and redid it using liu he
ba fa mechanics. Sure, it looks kinda like tai chi because it has the same
names and number of moves, but literally all the mechanics are taken from
liu he ba fa. I doubt Moy Lin Shin learned Tai Chi at all, but if he did he
certainly didn't use his knowledge of Tai Chi to create Taoist Tai Chi.
This might read like an attack on Moy Lin Shin and his Taoist Tai Chi, but
it's not, it's the truth. I'm sure his Liu he ba fa was very good - it just
*wasn't tai chi*. And the truth is, that from what I saw he only really
taught his best skills in liu he ba fa to a few people, some of which
probably aren't even inolved with the organizations anymore. And it's very
hard to learn from them now. Good luck :)
-frl
coleoptera
>
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2001 02:42:09 GMT, Wayne Taylor <w...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> >I have recently enrolled in a local chapter of Taoist Tai Chi
> >society. Good workout but slow in the evolution of my
> >development.
>
> Tai Chi and why it may actually be bad for your health. As a former
Maybe it would be a good idea to refer to facts, and not spout baseless
declarations. A discussion of what "really" tai chi is might be very
interesting and enlightening. Would it be useful to set criteria what
_real_ tai chi is? Difficult but challenging when there is disagreement
on what *tai chi* is.
That TTC _may_ be bad for your health is a serious and baseless
insinuation. I await facts.
> student of the school in Ottawa, I can verify both comments having now
Thus, you can verify your statements: why is then TTC not _really_ tai
chi? Please state your defintion of tai chi and the criteria that you
used to verify the facts.
> taken over two years of Yang style Tai Chi, both form and function,
> from two excellent instructors. Any school that feels they can teach
> the 108 moves of the long form with any degree of competence in just
> three to four months, two to three hours a week is delusional.
I can see now that you have not taken the time nor the responsibility to
find out what Taoist Tai Chi is and what the Society stands for. Then
you would know, just briefly, that the TTCS does not claim to be able to
teach the 108 moves in four months, but only that you learn to be able
to follow and walk through the set. It is up to you to practice outside
the two hours lessons. It is also then up to you to continue learning
and improve your competence after these four months. Instead you chose
to walk out to another organisation/school where you have been guided
step by step, and held by the hand. If you had continued with the TTCS
for two years your impressions and personal development would most
likely be very different with a milder view of the TTCS.
It is up to you. It is in taoism that you learn to look at yourself. I
guess you missed the taoist part of the instructions. Do not blame
others, please.
CC
Kevin Hill
> Maybe it would be a good idea to refer to facts, and not spout baseless
> declarations. A discussion of what "really" tai chi is might be very
> interesting and enlightening. Would it be useful to set criteria what
> _real_ tai chi is? Difficult but challenging when there is disagreement
> on what *tai chi* is.
Actually, in my experience there are a number of camps. There are the
dilettantes who seem to inevitably parrot the line that they are doing
it right, but that it takes ten years before you get it and they just
aren't there yet; I'm not sure I've ever read anything from someone who
passed this universal and magical ten year date, but I'd be curious
as to what the next excuse is as to why they can't do these marvelous
things they claim will just 'come to them'. This includes the for
health people, and in my opinion the taoist tai chi society is in this
camp.
There is the group with teachers who both do 'real' tai chi *and* teach
it to students traditionally; i.e. stand this way do this, think about
this mystical thing, and you learn it correctly. Students from this
type of background end up with the right skills, but it's hard to know
because they tend to just say things in parables. :o) There is a
subgroup here of people who have a teacher who can do the thing, but
for whatever reason can't or won't teach it; confusing, since the
students theoretically should know whereof they speak but don't.
There is the modern camp, the technically trained bunch who learn
(in various degrees) the mechanics through more modern explanations
and practices. These aren't much different from the previous group.
Both these groups tend to know what they are trying to do very early
on - none of this ten year shit.
On a side note, I wonder where this ten year stuff came from? It's
like piranhas eating a cow in under a minute. Very odd.
Anyway the interesting thing is that I've noticed that in the crowd
of people who can actually *do* the things proclaimed by tai chi,
there is no confusion about what 'it' is. It just seems to be the
dilittantes who are confused.
Nobody claims that jazz dancing is tai chi. So even the worst
understanding seems to have some limits. I'd like to know what
people think that separates taoist tai chi from, for example,
jazz dancing.
> I can see now that you have not taken the time nor the responsibility to
> find out what Taoist Tai Chi is and what the Society stands for. Then
> you would know, just briefly, that the TTCS does not claim to be able to
> teach the 108 moves in four months, but only that you learn to be able
> to follow and walk through the set. It is up to you to practice outside
> the two hours lessons. It is also then up to you to continue learning
> and improve your competence after these four months. Instead you chose
> to walk out to another organisation/school where you have been guided
> step by step, and held by the hand. If you had continued with the TTCS
> for two years your impressions and personal development would most
> likely be very different with a milder view of the TTCS.
How is competance going to be improved, if there is no understanding
of the basic structure given? I've seen different styles of
instruction in tai chi. The first, in a local community center, was
a lesson in correography. It would have been impossible to connect
all the dots that way alone. The other, you were taught from the
very beginning how the teaching was applied; basic stances and
movements were tested by the teacher on an ongoing basis for
correctness by pushing, and evaluating the proper root. The class
did drills all the time which emphasize the mechanics.
The community center class, which was closer than the taoist tai chi
society, did some drills to; we were told that this was how 'ancient
masters' learned to do great things. Just keep at it, and I'm sure
that it will all magically appear. :o)
> It is up to you. It is in taoism that you learn to look at yourself. I
> guess you missed the taoist part of the instructions. Do not blame
> others, please.
And there is another question right there. Not that there is any
problem with Taoism, but what does that have to do with taichi?
:o)
Kevin
YoJimbo
>
>
>"No Problem" <nop...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:8X3s7.20024$GQ2.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> what is Liu He Ba Fa?
>
>Liu He Ba fa is also known as "Six Harmonies and Eight Movements".
>
>It is a style of martial arts which Moy Lin Shin learned. When Moy Lin-Shin
>came to Canada, he knew that liu he ba fa wasn't nearly as popular as tai
>chi, so he took the yang style 108 movement form and redid it using liu he
>ba fa mechanics. Sure, it looks kinda like tai chi because it has the same
>names and number of moves, but literally all the mechanics are taken from
>liu he ba fa. I doubt Moy Lin Shin learned Tai Chi at all, but if he did he
>certainly didn't use his knowledge of Tai Chi to create Taoist Tai Chi.
>
>This might read like an attack on Moy Lin Shin and his Taoist Tai Chi, but
>it's not, it's the truth.
Nope. Not quite. Moy's stuff has nothing to do with liu he be fa, it's pseudo-
Yang taiji with some weirdo (read: bogus) qigongs thrown in. His organization is also a
cult. Of course, Ollie, that presupposes you'd know what is a cult is and what
isn't, so we're already on tenuous ground.
And it has nothing to do with daoism, either. It's a new-age conglomeration with
the typical pseudo-daoist jargon thrown in. New-agers love this stuff. At least
I thought they did, but at last look at one local school here in Arvada, there
were just a couple overweight students in the class. As if doing some slow-motion stuff
would suck off that weight in some magical fashion... Yeah, okay. Hey, it's exercise,
right? Where's Moy's magical qigongs when ya need it?
Heck, daoist tai chee ain't what it used to be, lemme tell ya.
I'm switching religions in my own tai chee practice; I'm now into
Dead Sea scrolls tai chee. I find it fits in well with my Qumran desert monastic
practices.
JS
Oliver Richman
They don't teach taoism in any way shape or form. I was with them for about
5 years. I was very interested and even helped out at the temple serving
food to homeless people. The things I saw while I was there made me really
hate that organization, the backbiting and politics, embezzeling and general
snootyassed attitude reeks of a private corporation ruled by despotism, not
a taoist temple aimed at promoting chinese culture and public health.
-frl
<barri...@aolnospam.com> wrote in message
news:ukiprt4mghu0kj5ek...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:58:14 +0200, coleoptera
> <"coleoptera"@wanad...@pop.wanadoo.nl> wrote:
>
> >I can see now that you have not taken the time nor the responsibility to
> >find out what Taoist Tai Chi is and what the Society stands for.
>
> You can see that how?
>
> >Then
> >you would know, just briefly, that the TTCS does not claim to be able to
> >teach the 108 moves in four months, but only that you learn to be able
> >to follow and walk through the set. It is up to you to practice outside
> >the two hours lessons.
>
> This may or may not be true in the Netherlands, but certainly isn't
> true for the Canadian branches with which I am familiar. They *do*
> make the claim and *do* try to teach the 108 moves in three to four
> months in more than a follow and walk through manner. Of course, you
> are expected to practice outside of class, that's a given if you want
> to learn anything well. Worse still, the instructors are mostly those
> with little more skills than the recently graduated beginners of the
> introductory course. They are well-meaning and often hard-working,
> just not that skillful.
>
> > It is also then up to you to continue learning
> >and improve your competence after these four months. Instead you chose
> >to walk out to another organisation/school where you have been guided
> >step by step, and held by the hand. If you had continued with the TTCS
> >for two years your impressions and personal development would most
> >likely be very different with a milder view of the TTCS.
>
> I don't know where you got the impression that I walked out after
> three or four months. I didn't. I stayed with them for almost two
> years. In fact, the longer I stayed, the less mild my view of TTC
> became and the more convinced I became that it wasn't "real" Tai Chi
> and that the organization is a cult. They do have nice t-shirts,
> though.
>
> >It is up to you. It is in taoism that you learn to look at yourself. I
> >guess you missed the taoist part of the instructions. Do not blame
> >others, please.
>
> Funny you should mention that, as I was a taoist before I started at
> the school, which is what drew it to my attention in the first place.
> Unfortunately, the school wasn't much interested in teaching taoism or
> even in discussing the nexus between tai chi and taoism. In short,
> you don't have much of a clue what you're talking about at least
> vis-a-vis my experiences or the TTC schools here. But hey, don't let
> that stop you from discussing my experiences.
>
> Larry
>
Brian C. Allen
>
> hate that organization, the backbiting and politics, embezzeling and general
> snootyassed attitude reeks of a private corporation ruled by despotism, not
> a taoist temple aimed at promoting chinese culture and public health.
>
Unfortunately, Chinese culture does have a lot of "backbiting and
politics, embezzeling and general snootyassed attitude reeks of a
private corporation ruled by despotism". It's not likely that even
taoist temples in China are going to match or even approach the
ideals are expressed in oral and written traditions from long ago.
BCA
Oliver Richman
-frl
"Brian C. Allen" <b...@ormed.edu> wrote in message
news:3BBE4953...@ormed.edu...
YoJimbo
>
>Oliver Richman wrote:
>>
>
>> hate that organization, the backbiting and politics, embezzeling and general
>> snootyassed attitude reeks of a private corporation ruled by despotism, not
>> a taoist temple aimed at promoting chinese culture and public health.
>>
>
>Unfortunately, Chinese culture does have a lot of "backbiting and
>politics, embezzeling and general snootyassed attitude reeks of a
>private corporation ruled by despotism".
I'm not sure what all this has to do with Moy's operation.
It's a cult, guys.
What sociological commentary you want to make about chinese culture is
peripheral to Moy's cult tactics.
>It's not likely that even
>taoist temples in China are going to match or even approach the
>ideals are expressed in oral and written traditions from long ago.
>BCA
???
I'm sure daoism is alive and well (or "well, alive?") in China, but this
also has nothing to do with the topic of Moy's *taoist tai chee* (tm).
JS
patsh...@gmail.com
Firstly, I don't presume to know what "real" tai chi is. It is made very clear that the taoist form is modified from traditional forms to maximize health benefits and leaves out martial arts components. As to health benefits, when I practice regularly my balance is improved and knee and shoulder pain definitely diminishes. I am a female 70 years old with arthritis in knees and shoulders. This improvement certainly did not come initially, but remained true after about a year if I practice regularly. It took me about a year to be able to do the set on my own.
In regards to it being a cult: I've never heard Master Moy referred to as being divine or to be worshipped. I don't give a bunch of money to the organization. The fees are very reasonable and you can attend for free if you can't afford to pay anything. I haven't changed my lifestyle in any way except for practicing daily and feeling very good with a sense of well being after attending a class.
In regards to backbiting, etc. I've never met a more friendly, welcoming group of people. Everyone is kind and helpful and just interested in learning and improving their practice. The teachers seem very competent and knowledgable. I've attended classes in five different cities and have found the same thing in all of them.
Anyway, if you want what I guess is the more traditional Tai Chi with martial arts components and want to have most of your fellow students under the age of 55, this is likely not for you. But if you are older and looking for a gentle form to get yourself moving and get some health benefits and social interaction with some very nice people, I would try this.