Anyone Have Any Info On Fuma Ryu Ninjutsu (Historical or Modern)?
Christian Cooper
I'm looking for information on both the historical Fuma Ryu of Ninjutsu
(lead by Fuma Kotaro) and any modern schools of the same name.
I know a little about the historical background of Fuma, i.e. the battle
against the Takeda group, and his believed hand in the death of Hattori
Hanzou etc., but just wonder if anyone has any sources of information above
and beyond this.
On the topic of the modern group with the same name, I would just like to
know if anyone has any information at all concerning them, especially with
respect to if they claim to have any links to this historical ryu, but
regardless of that any information at all about this organisation would be
much appreciated.
Regards,
Chris.
Houston Haynes
"Christian Cooper" <chri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On the topic of the modern group with the same name, I would just like
> to know if anyone has any information at all concerning them,
> especially with respect to if they claim to have any links to this
> historical ryu, but regardless of that any information at all about
> this organisation would be
> much appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris.
Harunaka Hoshino is the one who tried to propogate the Fuma ryu in the
US. He has abandoned that "line" and instead has the San Francisco Ninja
Society or somesuch nonsense. About the time of the name change, I
believe that it was discovered that he was not Japanese as he claimed,
but was actually a citizen of the UK, born in Hong Kong, or some ohter
UK "commonwealth", with a different (i.e. Chinese) surname than the one
he uses to this day.
He also is known as a sword collector, and tries to pass himself off as
a sword polisher as well. There have been numerous reports of his
ruining many a fine blade with his "polishing technique", but I have no
direct contact with him or his work.
I'm sure you can find more information if you search and make a few
phone calls.
Best to you in your quest for truth,
H3
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chris Kattner
"Christian Cooper" <chri...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:88ahh5$i6i$1...@news.ox.ac.uk...
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking for information on both the historical Fuma Ryu of Ninjutsu
> (lead by Fuma Kotaro) and any modern schools of the same name.
>
> I know a little about the historical background of Fuma, i.e. the battle
> against the Takeda group, and his believed hand in the death of Hattori
> Hanzou etc., but just wonder if anyone has any sources of information
above
> and beyond this.
>
Christian Cooper
>Harunaka Hoshino is the one who tried to propogate the Fuma ryu in the
>US. He has abandoned that "line" and instead has the San Francisco Ninja
>Society or somesuch nonsense. About the time of the name change, I
>believe that it was discovered that he was not Japanese as he claimed,
>but was actually a citizen of the UK, born in Hong Kong, or some ohter
>UK "commonwealth", with a different (i.e. Chinese) surname than the one
>he uses to this day.
>
>He also is known as a sword collector, and tries to pass himself off as
>a sword polisher as well. There have been numerous reports of his
>ruining many a fine blade with his "polishing technique", but I have no
>direct contact with him or his work.
>
>I'm sure you can find more information if you search and make a few
>phone calls.
I'm sure I can now I have a name to search with... thanks very much for the
information! As with almost all ninja ryu, it seems they are long since
dead and buried... oh well! Still. its interesting to hear about people who
claim lineage to such ancient traditions, even if fraudulant!
>Best to you in your quest for truth,
>H3
Heh... the truth in this case has long since been lost in the annals of
time... all I can hope for is semi-truths and suppositions at best... :-)
Regards and thanks,
Chris.
Fredrik Svensson
>>He also is known as a sword collector, and tries to pass himself off as
>>a sword polisher as well. There have been numerous reports of his
>>ruining many a fine blade with his "polishing technique", but I have no
>>direct contact with him or his work.
>>
>>I'm sure you can find more information if you search and make a few
>>phone calls.
>
>I'm sure I can now I have a name to search with... thanks very much for the
>information! As with almost all ninja ryu, it seems they are long since
>dead and buried... oh well! Still. its interesting to hear about people who
>claim lineage to such ancient traditions, even if fraudulant!
>
>>Best to you in your quest for truth,
>>H3
>
>Heh... the truth in this case has long since been lost in the annals of
>time... all I can hope for is semi-truths and suppositions at best... :-)
Uhm, you COULD go to a Bujinkan Dojo. You won't learn extremely much ninjutsu in terms of infiltration, spying, and
such. But if you want to do real ninjutsu, I suggest you enlist in the marines and seek yourself to force recon and you
will find true ninjutsu.
Well, however the bujinkan has 3 schools of ninjutsu, however only one is more frequently taught and that is Togakure
Ryu Ninjutsu, truth is that the other two haven't been taught yet. If you go to japan for over a year you will actually
learn more obscure principles and techniques that is true ninjutsu, and the schools are real and has a traceable
lineage. It is also the only ninjutsu ryuha that is listed in the Dai Nippon Bugei Ryu Ha, a book that lists schools and
grandmaster. Surely that doesn't mean that others do have real grandmastership, but it do say that it's not a fraud.
But if you are'nt interested in martial arts, and if you find it more interesting with something that perhaps is fraud
but teach you what you want, and that perhaps is sneaking around in the woods and infiltration and such thing, I suggest
that you don't enter Bujinkan since you will be grossly disappointed, at least in the beginning. Ninjutsu comes MUCH
later and is more in forms of principles.
Whatever you choose to do, please do read "History and tradition by Hatsumi Masaaki", a great book that takes up the
history of ninjutsu. A great book indeed.
Good luck in your pursue of martial arts...
Christian Cooper
>Uhm, you COULD go to a Bujinkan Dojo. You won't learn extremely much
ninjutsu in terms of infiltration, spying, and
Uhm... I was once a member of the bujinkan... (hey, I still have the Honbu
Dojo membership card somewhere) before they decided they were budo rather
than ninpo... :-)
ATM, I am simply conducting a bit of historical research, not wishing to
practice myself, but thanks for the advice anyway!
>such. But if you want to do real ninjutsu, I suggest you enlist in the
marines and seek yourself to force recon and you
>will find true ninjutsu.
>Well, however the bujinkan has 3 schools of ninjutsu, however only one is
more frequently taught and that is Togakure
>Ryu Ninjutsu, truth is that the other two haven't been taught yet. If you
go to japan for over a year you will actually
>learn more obscure principles and techniques that is true ninjutsu, and the
schools are real and has a traceable
>lineage. It is also the only ninjutsu ryuha that is listed in the Dai
Nippon Bugei Ryu Ha, a book that lists schools and
>grandmaster. Surely that doesn't mean that others do have real
grandmastership, but it do say that it's not a fraud.
<Please correct me if I am wrong or inaccurate in anything I am about to
say...>
Hmm... I thought Bujinkan consists of 9 schools, mostly bujutsu, of which
Togakure was only one, as you say of three ninjutsu schools (the others
being Gyokushin and Kumogakure), though what was taught was an amalgamation
of techniques from most of these ryuha, I distinctly remember the bo
techniques as being accredited to Kukishin(den?), and the go-ton methods of
evasion as from Kiragakure ryu... as well as various solid close combat
techniques from Shinden Fudo... all budo schools...
And from what I remember, there are arguments concerning the grandmastership
of Gyokko ryu - the "other" big one apart from Togakure... As I remember,
Akimoto Fumio was the sucessor in this ryu to Toshitsugu Takamatsu Uoh,
before he (Akimoto) was tragically killed in '63, and the soke passed to
Hatsumi,but did not Tanemura Shoto subsequently staked a claim for the
grandmastership, having been allegedly given the Menkyo Kaiden by Akimoto's
widow...? but I digress, and am relatively well-read (or at least I like to
think so) about the Bujinkan/Gebukan/Jinenkan, don't want to get embroiled
in arguments about these styles etc... my request is more one for
information from the past...
>But if you are'nt interested in martial arts, and if you find it more
interesting with something that perhaps is fraud
>but teach you what you want, and that perhaps is sneaking around in the
woods and infiltration and such thing, I suggest
>that you don't enter Bujinkan since you will be grossly disappointed, at
least in the beginning. Ninjutsu comes MUCH
>later and is more in forms of principles.
Well, I was impressed with the style of Bujinkan... true it isn't Ninjutsu,
but to be honest, nowadays it doesn't even claim to be that, which is
definitely AGoodThing... but my request for information isn't from a
training slant... simply a historical one...
I am perfectly aware that the probabilities are well in favour of these
other schools being fraudulant, but I would still like to see what claims
they make, so that I may judge for myself...
>Whatever you choose to do, please do read "History and tradition by Hatsumi
Masaaki", a great book that takes up the
>history of ninjutsu. A great book indeed.
Got it - Agree it is a great book, as are all by Maasaki Hatsumi - I liked
"Essence of Ninjutsu" for its historical slant myself... while on the topic
of books, I'm partial to the works of Donn Draeger... a very refreshing
outlook and plenty of historical references... and Charles Daniel's works
are to be recommended as well in the sphere of the Bujinkan.
>Good luck in your pursue of martial arts...
Thanks... but at the moment my pursuit is for information...
Regards, and thanks,
Chris.
Fredrik Svensson
>Hiya!
>
>>Uhm, you COULD go to a Bujinkan Dojo. You won't learn extremely much
>ninjutsu in terms of infiltration, spying, and
>
>Uhm... I was once a member of the bujinkan... (hey, I still have the Honbu
>Dojo membership card somewhere) before they decided they were budo rather
>than ninpo... :-)
>ATM, I am simply conducting a bit of historical research, not wishing to
>practice myself, but thanks for the advice anyway!
>
Did the training change because of the namechange?
><Please correct me if I am wrong or inaccurate in anything I am about to
>say...>
>Hmm... I thought Bujinkan consists of 9 schools, mostly bujutsu, of which
>Togakure was only one, as you say of three ninjutsu schools (the others
>being Gyokushin and Kumogakure), though what was taught was an amalgamation
>of techniques from most of these ryuha, I distinctly remember the bo
>techniques as being accredited to Kukishin(den?), and the go-ton methods of
>evasion as from Kiragakure ryu... as well as various solid close combat
>techniques from Shinden Fudo... all budo schools...
>
Oki, this is going to be a looong letter :))
The three schools Gyokushin ryu ninjutsu, Kumogakure ryu ninjutsu, Togakure ryu ninjutsu. Are the three ninjutsu
schools. As you know not much is known about kumogakure or gyokushin more than gyokushin was perhaps sprung out of
gyokko ryu koshijutsu.
Also that Kumogakure ryu perhaps more was into the espionage business more then the others.
The thing is that the base of Togakure ryu is Koto Ryu Koppojutsu and Gyokko ryu Koshijutsu. So by learning the
principles of togakure ryu you would automatically need to learn koto and gyokko. This is why hatsumi-sensei haven't
wanted to teach from the ninjutsu schools to westerners because they haven't learnt the basics yet from gyokko or koto.
This is maybe one of the reasons why this years theme is koto.
On other thing with Togakure ryu is that it doesn't in itself hold any techniques with weapons as I have understood it.
It has in times just borrowed techniques from other schools that has the best techniques and incorporated with the
principles of taijutsu and also principles of how to use the sword.
Now I know that bikenjutsu is a part of Togakure ryu, and it do use it's own type of sword, namely shinobi no katana.
Which in it's scabbard looks like an ordinary uchigatana (katana), but when drawn it is just a half sword. Pretty
tricky. Bikenjutsu also have alot of methods of drawing and positioning of the sword, to fool the opponent. Like the
indexfinger unlock. But there are also a whole set of techniques in bikenjutsu that utilize the shinobiken.
Hatsumi-sensei haven't trained the same schools that the other togakure ryu sokes that was before him, so Hatsumi-sensei
had to complete togakure ryu himself. This is done by kukishin ryu, which is a very strong weapon school which holds
many weapons. Like Bojutsu, naginata, yari and more. All that do not have any own katas in togakure ryu, though it
probably is some kuden that says "when having a stick you could use it to jump walls if you..." or some other similar
usage.
Now, how do we learn ninjutsu?
well, ninjutsu in itself is a term that is more like hiding, infiltration and such. This you can teach yourself in the
force recon in the marines or any other place where it will come into play.
The thing we do learn is Ninpo, which I think all schools do have except Takagi Yoshin ryu Ju(tai)jutsu. And it is the
ninpo that is the very foundation of ninjutsu, without that, ninjutsu will not exist. I do actually believe that
Takamatsu-sensei did write a letter that said that Kukishin ryu actually did contain ninpo, which did not surprise me at
all, because that too originated from the Iga province.
I believe that if you are well proficient in Ninpo, and do understand the whole bit of ninpo, ninjutsu will come by
itself when placed under the situation to use it. Since ninjutsu in itself is merely principles you could with the
guidance of taijutsu and ninpo rediscover them by yourself.
Now you said, "Kiragakure ryu"??
Do you perhaps mean, Kosei Kirigakure gata? . Which is the escape methods using metsubishi and shuriken to steal away.
Well that is actually from Togakure ryu, and in the Tenchijin ryaku no maki that Hatsumi-sensei gave his students to
have some sort of manual to go by to know what to teach and so on in the beginning, he selected a whole set of
techniques people should know to have a sort of mold for this system. So he picked some things from every school (not
gyokushin and kumogakure, even though "Shikin Haramitsu daikomyo" is said to come from kumogakure) to give the students
a way to advance in taijutsu, which later would bring the students into perfecting the taijutsu and even later would
lead into Togakure ryu.
All the schools is thereby Ninpo schools (except takagi yoshin ryu) as I said before. But as said in a scroll, but I do
not remember which, it is said that Ninjutsu is budo. Which point that all we do is budo none the less, but our budo is
spiced up with ninpo which do not restrict us in any way.
>And from what I remember, there are arguments concerning the grandmastership
>of Gyokko ryu - the "other" big one apart from Togakure... As I remember,
>Akimoto Fumio was the sucessor in this ryu to Toshitsugu Takamatsu Uoh,
>before he (Akimoto) was tragically killed in '63, and the soke passed to
>Hatsumi,but did not Tanemura Shoto subsequently staked a claim for the
>grandmastership, having been allegedly given the Menkyo Kaiden by Akimoto's
>widow...? but I digress, and am relatively well-read (or at least I like to
>think so) about the Bujinkan/Gebukan/Jinenkan, don't want to get embroiled
>in arguments about these styles etc... my request is more one for
>information from the past...
Uhm, this is one part that I do not know much about. But as I see it the widow of akimoto can not give someone the
rights of a school. If you ask me, Tanemura-sensei used that as a sort of escape to say to the public and the martial
arts community that he actually do have the right to teach Gyokko ryu, without gyokko ryu and koto ryu, togakure ryu
would be meaningless, so I do believe that Tanemura-sensei is full of shit actually (when it comes to that, no offence
intended against the Genbukan), however he is a outstanding budoka and I respect him much. I can also very much
understand why anyone would want to train with him even if he is full of shit. I won't stop training with Hatsumi-sensei
if he was full of shit eighter.
(John Lindsey, if you read, do you have an opinion?... you can also clear out some of the errors I might have:)
>Well, I was impressed with the style of Bujinkan... true it isn't Ninjutsu,
>but to be honest, nowadays it doesn't even claim to be that, which is
>definitely AGoodThing... but my request for information isn't from a
>training slant... simply a historical one...
>
>I am perfectly aware that the probabilities are well in favour of these
>other schools being fraudulant, but I would still like to see what claims
>they make, so that I may judge for myself...
Well, I am too very interested to see if there is any Koga ryu out there that actually can hold water. I am waiting to
be convinced, it would mean a lot. But from a historic view, what would a fraud give you, beside saying that ninjas used
a straight sword and other lies.
>Got it - Agree it is a great book, as are all by Maasaki Hatsumi - I liked
>"Essence of Ninjutsu" for its historical slant myself... while on the topic
>of books, I'm partial to the works of Donn Draeger... a very refreshing
>outlook and plenty of historical references... and Charles Daniel's works
>are to be recommended as well in the sphere of the Bujinkan.
"Essence of ninjutsu" is the best book I have ever bought in my entire life. But from a historic view "History and
tradition" would be even better. Both books are a must to have for every Bujinkan practitioner.
I have not read the books of Donn F. Draeger. I have heard a fun story about it though, it has gone around some times.
The story is perhaps still the E-budo forum.
>Thanks... but at the moment my pursuit is for information...
Well, good luck in whatever pursuit you might have then :)
Chi.
>>ATM, I am simply conducting a bit of historical research, not wishing to
>>practice myself, but thanks for the advice anyway!
>>
>Did the training change because of the namechange?
Nope - I don't think I said it did either... guess it was just one of those
policy decisions made to distance from all the Ninja wannabes (or perhaps I
am being cynical and shortsighted...) :-)
>The three schools Gyokushin ryu ninjutsu, Kumogakure ryu ninjutsu, Togakure
ryu ninjutsu. Are the three ninjutsu
>schools. As you know not much is known about kumogakure or gyokushin more
than gyokushin was perhaps sprung out of
>gyokko ryu koshijutsu.
>Also that Kumogakure ryu perhaps more was into the espionage business more
then the others.
And funnily enough isn't Kumogakure is the one of which the least is known
or has been taught to the Western world...?
And also didn't the prayer "Chihayafuru kami no osiewa tadashiki... (skip
bits I can no longer remember)... shikin haramitsu dai komyo" allegedly come
from this ryu?
IMHO Some very good opinions held here - I won't attempt to comment further
(and certainly not criticise) them... that paragraph was very interesting to
read, so I extend my thanks.
>Now you said, "Kiragakure ryu"??
>Do you perhaps mean, Kosei Kirigakure gata? . Which is the escape methods
using metsubishi and shuriken to steal away.
I do mean these escape techniques from Kiragakure Ryu. I remember these
methods as being defined as the Goton-po methods of intonjutsu, with (at
least to lower grades) the main elements taught consisting of the Soto Tonko
no kata (forgive me if I have got this wrong - it has been a long time since
I studied bujinkan techniques... ). Are they the same thing? Or rather is
what I remember as the Soto Tonko no kata a part of Kosei Kirigakure gata?
>Well that is actually from Togakure ryu, and in the Tenchijin ryaku no maki
that Hatsumi-sensei gave his students to
<bits snipped>
>a way to advance in taijutsu, which later would bring the students into
perfecting the taijutsu and even later would
>lead into Togakure ryu.
Oh yes... the tenchijin ryaku no maki... I recall once being given a version
of this by my sensei once upon a time... I remember it as being an
interesting reference manual of sorts to aid the training!
>All the schools is thereby Ninpo schools (except takagi yoshin ryu) as I
said before. But as said in a scroll, but I do
>not remember which, it is said that Ninjutsu is budo. Which point that all
we do is budo none the less, but our budo is
>spiced up with ninpo which do not restrict us in any way.
A fair comment.
>>And from what I remember, there are arguments concerning the
grandmastership
>>of Gyokko ryu - the "other" big one apart from Togakure... As I remember,
<bits snipped>
>>in arguments about these styles etc... my request is more one for
>>information from the past...
>
>Uhm, this is one part that I do not know much about. But as I see it the
widow of akimoto can not give someone the
>rights of a school. If you ask me, Tanemura-sensei used that as a sort of
escape to say to the public and the martial
>arts community that he actually do have the right to teach Gyokko ryu,
without gyokko ryu and koto ryu, togakure ryu
>would be meaningless, so I do believe that Tanemura-sensei is full of shit
actually (when it comes to that, no offence
>intended against the Genbukan), however he is a outstanding budoka and I
respect him much. I can also very much
>understand why anyone would want to train with him even if he is full of
shit. I won't stop training with Hatsumi-sensei
>if he was full of shit eighter.
>(John Lindsey, if you read, do you have an opinion?... you can also clear
out some of the errors I might have:)
I was actually kindly corrected by email as to my myriad historical
inaccuracies here... firstly it was in fact Gikan ryu which has been
disputed, not Gyokko (my stupid mistake!) - and also it seems that
Tanemura-sensei was granted the Menkyo Kaiden by Sato Kinbei Sensei, who was
in turn granted it by Takamatsu Toshitsugu after the death of Akimoto
Sensei.
I have no qualms as to the fact that Tanemura sensei is surely an excellent
martial artist... (and Hatsumi must have held some regard for him as if I
remember correctly he is featured in a couple of pictures at the end of
"History and Tradition" under his original name of Tanemura Tsunihisa) and
as you say it is always possible to learn from people even if they are "full
of shit" (but I am NOT accusing Tanemura Shoto of this naturally...) - as is
the case even with people you believe and trust you should watch and then
judge for yourself what is useful/true/whatever...
>>Well, I was impressed with the style of Bujinkan... true it isn't
Ninjutsu,
<bits snipped>
>>I am perfectly aware that the probabilities are well in favour of these
>>other schools being fraudulant, but I would still like to see what claims
>>they make, so that I may judge for myself...
>
>Well, I am too very interested to see if there is any Koga ryu out there
that actually can hold water. I am waiting to
>be convinced, it would mean a lot. But from a historic view, what would a
fraud give you, beside saying that ninjas used
>a straight sword and other lies.
A valid point, but I would still like to know how and why any modern schools
choose to associate themselves with a band of sea ninja reputed to have been
responsible for the death of Hanzou Hattori Masashige in 1596... whether
they claim any link however tenuous or,as is more likely, are simply using
the name for the hell of it.
Oh yes. The Koga ryu... probably best not to get started on that one is it,
even if it is true that it only died out 34 years ago... (and even then
there is confusion over whether or not Fujita Seiko was really the last
soke) - I'd love to one day find out once and for all the truth behind that
one, but its not likely is it...?
What? You mean ninja didn't use straight swords? Darn... next I'll find
out that they didn't wear black suits with hoods all the time ;-)
>>Got it - Agree it is a great book, as are all by Maasaki Hatsumi - I liked
<bits snipped>
>>are to be recommended as well in the sphere of the Bujinkan.
>
>"Essence of ninjutsu" is the best book I have ever bought in my entire
life. But from a historic view "History and
>tradition" would be even better. Both books are a must to have for every
Bujinkan practitioner.
And, I think, for anyone interested in ninjutsu in general...
>I have not read the books of Donn F. Draeger. I have heard a fun story
about it though, it has gone around some times.
>The story is perhaps still the E-budo forum.
Oh yes... have just discovered that forum - very interesting place it is
too! Can't believe I had never been there before... kinda shows how long
its been since I was searching the net for information on this topic...
>>Thanks... but at the moment my pursuit is for information...
>
>Well, good luck in whatever pursuit you might have then :)
Thanks!
Chris.
Fredrik Svensson
>Nope - I don't think I said it did either... guess it was just one of those
>policy decisions made to distance from all the Ninja wannabes (or perhaps I
>am being cynical and shortsighted...) :-)
>
perhaps :)
<snip>
uhm, kumogakure, gyokushin and gikan is pretty unknown for most people, by reasons unknown. "Shikin..." is from
kumogakure, at least what I have read.
>I do mean these escape techniques from Kiragakure Ryu. I remember these
>methods as being defined as the Goton-po methods of intonjutsu, with (at
>least to lower grades) the main elements taught consisting of the Soto Tonko
>no kata (forgive me if I have got this wrong - it has been a long time since
>I studied bujinkan techniques... ). Are they the same thing? Or rather is
>what I remember as the Soto Tonko no kata a part of Kosei Kirigakure gata?
>
Uhm, but soto tonka no kata is from togakure ryu. and Kosei Kirigakure gata is a part of Soto Tonka no kata. Where
Kirigakure ryu came from, I have no idea :)
Actually I haven't done much goton-po... If any...
>I was actually kindly corrected by email as to my myriad historical
>inaccuracies here... firstly it was in fact Gikan ryu which has been
>disputed, not Gyokko (my stupid mistake!) - and also it seems that
>Tanemura-sensei was granted the Menkyo Kaiden by Sato Kinbei Sensei, who was
>in turn granted it by Takamatsu Toshitsugu after the death of Akimoto
>Sensei.
>
<snip>
Uhm, but I am certain that Tanemura-sensei claimed soke of a school that Hatsumi is soke of. As I remember it, he asked
takamatsu-sensei's widow if he could be the soke of the particular school. Don't remember which though, could it be
Togakure ryu?
I don't question the legimacy of most Tanemura-sensei Menkyos. He is by the way soke of a whole lot of schools that runs
in his family, but he do have some wild claims sometimes.
Tanemura-sensei is actually Hatsumi-senseis cousin if I remember correctly. They havn't spoken to eachother for 15 years
or something. Why that is so, nobody knows.
<snip>
>Oh yes. The Koga ryu... probably best not to get started on that one is it,
>even if it is true that it only died out 34 years ago... (and even then
>there is confusion over whether or not Fujita Seiko was really the last
>soke) - I'd love to one day find out once and for all the truth behind that
>one, but its not likely is it...?
>
Uhm, but it could as well been other links then Fujita Seiko. I have actually heard something about Koga guys training
up in the mountains of Koga, how true that is, I don't know until I've seen it myself :)
Fujita Seiko btw, it is said that after saving alot of scrolls and stuff under/after the WW2 he got granted the soke for
Koga ryu from the emperor, as a sort of aknowledgement for his work on Japanese culture and history. Then whether or not
Fujita Seiko HAD trained with his grandfather nobody knows.
>What? You mean ninja didn't use straight swords? Darn... next I'll find
>out that they didn't wear black suits with hoods all the time ;-)
Darn! :)
>And, I think, for anyone interested in ninjutsu in general...
>
True...
>Oh yes... have just discovered that forum - very interesting place it is
>too! Can't believe I had never been there before... kinda shows how long
>its been since I was searching the net for information on this topic...
"the net", is actually a pretty suckass place to search for info. But sometimes there is some things that actually is
good but that is taken down pretty quick. Because some people think that valuable information should'nt be accessible by
everybody, I think that sucks.
Best is to ask people who has been in Japan, and trained for a long time. They tend to have TONS of information.
george...@my-deja.com
<tqbgbs0edvmcekelu...@4ax.com>,
Fredrik Svensson <fsn9...@student.mdh.se>
wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:32:57 -0000, "Chi."
>
> >I do mean these escape techniques from
Kiragakure Ryu.
What is Kiragakure Ryu?
>
> Uhm, but I am certain that Tanemura-sensei
claimed soke of a school that Hatsumi is soke of.
As I remember it, he asked
> takamatsu-sensei's widow if he could be the
soke of the particular school. Don't remember
which though, could it be
> Togakure ryu?
Nope. The school in question is Gikan Ryu and he
received soke of this ryu from Sato Kinbei
sensei. Tanemura Sensei never asked Takamatsu
Sensei's wife, Takamatsu Tane, to be soke of any
school. He basically told her that he left the
bujinkan and started his own organization.
Takamatsu Tane basically told him that she
understood.
> I don't question the legimacy of most Tanemura-
sensei Menkyos. He is by the way soke of a whole
lot of schools that runs
> in his family, but he do have some wild claims
sometimes.
What wild claims are you talking about? And the
only schools that run in the "Family" would be
the menkyo kaiden that he received from Hatsumi
Sensei, since they are cousins :-) Tanemura
Sensei's other teachers are:
Kimura Masaji (passed away this year at 100 yrs
old)
Sato Kinbei (passed away last year)
Fukumoto Yoshio (passed away several years ago)
Kobayashi Masao (passed away several years ago)
> Uhm, but it could as well been other links then
Fujita Seiko. I have actually heard something
about Koga guys training
> up in the mountains of Koga, how true that is,
I don't know until I've seen it myself :)
> Fujita Seiko btw, it is said that after saving
alot of scrolls and stuff under/after the WW2 he
got granted the soke for
> Koga ryu from the emperor, as a sort of
aknowledgement for his work on Japanese culture
and history. Then whether or not
> Fujita Seiko HAD trained with his grandfather
nobody knows.
Were did you get the source about Fujita getting
soke from the emperor? I think you need to do
more research on that one.
George Kohler
Genbukan/KJJR
Kusakage Dojo-cho
Fredrik Svensson
>> >I do mean these escape techniques from
>Kiragakure Ryu.
>
>What is Kiragakure Ryu?
>
I have NO idea what so ever :) ... It is probably a misinterpretation of Kosei Kirigakure gata.
Ask Chris, he said it, no me...
<snip the genbukan blunder>
Oh, sorry... mistake on my behalf then. But did Sato Kinbei get the soke from Takamatsu?
>What wild claims are you talking about? And the
>only schools that run in the "Family" would be
>the menkyo kaiden that he received from Hatsumi
>Sensei, since they are cousins :-) Tanemura
>Sensei's other teachers are:
>Kimura Masaji (passed away this year at 100 yrs
>old)
>Sato Kinbei (passed away last year)
>Fukumoto Yoshio (passed away several years ago)
>Kobayashi Masao (passed away several years ago)
Uhm, I will need to re-read some circumstances and ties in this "affair" again :) . But there were some things that I
objected on last time I read about it. Quite frankly I don't wan't to get in such a discussion anyway :)
>Were did you get the source about Fujita getting
>soke from the emperor? I think you need to do
>more research on that one.
>
Nono, this one I am quite certain on. I have heard it from lots of different sources actually. The thing is that he got
the title because of his work for the japanese culture.
He couldn't claim the soke otherwise because he didn't train for enough time with his grandfather. Who didn't want the
school to live on anyway.
There are MANY different stories about his life. I heard one about him joining a circus and did shows with "ninjutsu" as
tricks and such.
I mean, who knows, and who cares. The guy is dead and nobody (AFAIK) claims that lineage. What he DID however, was to
save a hell of alot of scrolls from being destroyed. He also did heavy research on the subject, and that should he at
least have credits for. Which he also have got.
george...@my-deja.com
Fredrik Svensson <fsn9...@student.mdh.se> wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:01:47 GMT, george...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Oh, sorry... mistake on my behalf then. But did Sato Kinbei get the
soke from Takamatsu?
Yes, Sato Sensei received soke in Gikan Ryu, Hontai Kukishin Ryu, and
Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu from Takamatsu Sensei. I believe he also
received some Amatsu Tatara scrolls. And yes, Gikan Ryu does have
scrolls.
> Nono, this one I am quite certain on. I have heard it from lots of
different sources actually. The thing is that he got
> the title because of his work for the japanese culture.
> He couldn't claim the soke otherwise because he didn't train for
enough time with his grandfather. Who didn't want the
> school to live on anyway.
While, there are many stories about his exploits, some of which I don't
agree on, he did not receive soke from the Emperor. You can find an
good article about Koga Ryu and Fujita on this website
http://chiba.netxn.com/~khouse/kogapart1.htm
It was written by Don Roley
>
> There are MANY different stories about his life. I heard one about
him joining a circus and did shows with "ninjutsu" as
> tricks and such.
I don't think it was a circus, but he did go around Japan demonstrating
various tricks, which really had nothing to do with ninjutsu.
Chi.
Kosei Kirigakure gata.
>Ask Chris, he said it, no me...
It _was_ my mistake... I must have got confused with the Kosei Kiragakure
Gata as Fredrik stated... well in my defence it was in 1994 when I last
trained in the Bujinkan... back in those days when it called itself Ninpo
:-) (I know full well the content being taught hasn't changed... just find
the whole policy shift thing mildly amusing...)
And of course Kosei Kiragakure Gata is just a part of Togakure... oh well...
my mistake again... must actually locate all the old documents and books I
have on ninjutsu so that I can avoid similar stupid mistakes... :-)
Amazing how a poor memory can upgrade a set of intonjutsu kata into a full
Ryu :-)
Regards,
Chris.
Zvxr Eboregf
http://members.aol.com/SFShinken/Shinken-Jutsu-Dojo.html
He usually has a booth at the Cherry Blossom Festival in Japantown in San
Francisco every April. A few years ago he and his "ninja" dojo would be
part (usually the last) of the martial arts demos there, but lately he has
only been displaying his sword collection. He has little signs posted
"Hands off, not yours" all over his sword booth. I think he's a lunatic.
On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:18:02 GMT, Houston Haynes (Houston Haynes
<kage_n...@my-deja.com>) wrote (in <88bn6n$dr6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>):
[snipped]
>|Harunaka Hoshino is the one who tried to propogate the Fuma ryu in the
>|US. He has abandoned that "line" and instead has the San Francisco Ninja
>|Society or somesuch nonsense. About the time of the name change, I
>|believe that it was discovered that he was not Japanese as he claimed,
>|but was actually a citizen of the UK, born in Hong Kong, or some ohter
>|UK "commonwealth", with a different (i.e. Chinese) surname than the one
>|he uses to this day.
>|
>|He also is known as a sword collector, and tries to pass himself off as
>|a sword polisher as well. There have been numerous reports of his
>|ruining many a fine blade with his "polishing technique", but I have no
>|direct contact with him or his work.
>|
>|I'm sure you can find more information if you search and make a few
>|phone calls.
>|
>|Best to you in your quest for truth,
>|H3
>|
>|
liberty...@gmail.com
Hello
Hi I used to write for Ninja Magazine its been maybe 20 years now since I first was published in the same period of time Haranaka Hoshino was also writing monthly articles on Fuma Ryu ninjutsu , he never abandoned "Fuma Ryu " as stated here he always owned the Sanfran sword society and museum infact San Fran sword society was his mailing address in all his articles .
He used to sell custom tailored Shinobi Shozoku that were pretty nice I had one made for me , I found him kind and helpful in the limited dealing I had with him .
I trained with everyone i could back in those days I attended the world Ninja summit where I met Dr Hatsumi , I had already trained with Students of Professor Ronald Duncan for 10 years at that time and I was only 18 years old .
I was awarded shodan shidoshi ho rank the first time I met Dr Hatsumi , I had trained with a Bujinkan teacher from Israel and his students in Canada , I felt very torn because of the politics and division back than as a young man .
It only got worse to the degree that great Ninjutsu pioneers like James Loriega , Richard L Wiggington and many others don't even mention Ninjutsu in there personal histories .
Amongst those who surfaced back than was Hoshino , Hoshino offered a unique perspective and very dramatic photographs in his published works .
Everyone wanted a piece of the "ninja Pie" but honestly Ronald Duncan , Don Dreager and a few others were the fathers of Ninjutsu in North America .
What is really sad is that no networking and cooperation took place between the bujinkan and the other organizations image what could have been created , instead skilled people who were published were offered position and opportunity to join the Bujinkan this included James Lorienga myself and many others i would think than the credibility of everyone who was not Bujinkan was attacked ..
I also trained with Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura that was a honour and a pleasure , I am a big man and he was a powerful man who directed me through the air as if I was a kite he was flying with a sincere love and passion for what he was doing stands out as one of the best experiences I had in attending any of the Ohio summits and other Seminars
You look around today and we see 10th Degree black belts and supreme master and online training courses etc etc even the philosophy behind bujinkan and yes you would need to call what is offered ninpo because the principals of Shinobi No Justu are lost , "Ninpo" is a word unrelated to any historical term associated with Ninjutsu but rather seems to be a burn on the term Kenpo .
Yes indeed authentic Ninjutsu has really turned into a unique collections of techniques that have little to do with Shinobi .
What Hoshino was publishing and teaching was historically correct Ninjutsu technique he taught about history and tradition and the science of historical Ninjutsu do some research .
Something that seems lost the reality is that Much of what is taught in todays "ninpo" is sogobudo not specifically Ninjustu .
Ninjutsu is not about helping society it was a dark and secret art that went against Bushido and honour code to win at any and all cost , it was not a honourable system of self improvement .
It was a system that has techniques of poisoning , interrogation , induction of dear using small animals and insects and general terror .
I personally know of other Ninjutsu teachers who were published in the 60's in Japan Iga Hakausai sensi was published in many publications June 1965 issue of Black Belt has a article. about him and described him as a Magician who performed techniques where he would knock strangers out with a touch have groups of as many as 7 people touch each other than make them all unable to move etc the point is that there were others with ninjutsu Ryu ha in there background many would not want to admit that there Family Ryu-ha contained or were actually Shinobi .
Sorry about the rant but sincerely research and learn the facts don't let corporate Ninjutsu stop you from learning from potentially great teachers
That being said there are Frauds and I would never say this unless I personally met them Ashida Kim Aka Chris Hunter and everyone associated with his Black Dragon fighting Society .
I see this is very old however I hope that others might learn from what I have said
Adakarosa No Shinobi
C. D . Scott