Dillman protege debunked as a fraud

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Rue The Day

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Jun 4, 2004, 6:42:54 PM6/4/04
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This video clip is priceless:

http://www.wijg.net/tasty.rm

One of Dildo's 7th degree blackbelts claims to be able to do all the
usual light touch knockouts AND he claims to be able to knock people
out from a distance without touching them using "internal energy". He
calls himself the "human stungun".

A local Fox news affiliate sends their news crew to investigate. They
film him touching his students on the arms and they're dropping like
flies. Then he knocks a bunch of them over from across the room
Yellow Bamboo style.

So the female news lady asks him to do it on her. He refuses to do
the energy knockout on her but instead goes for the pressure point
knockout and clocks her on the neck. She just stands there and goes
"Oww! You hit me!". IT DIDN'T WORK. No KO. Then they drag shithead
to a local BJJ school and he attempts his PP knockouts on one student
after another. Nothing happens. Nada. Zip. Zilch. He hits the one
guy and the guy starts laughing. He actually tells the guy "you
probably feel lightheaded and dizzy right now" and the BJJ guy is like
"I don't feel anything". Then Dildo Jr goes into a bunch of excuses
about why it didn't work.

Priceless.

BillMahoney68

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Jun 4, 2004, 9:05:45 PM6/4/04
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>From: ruet...@outgun.com (Rue The Day)

It is in vogue to say "Pressure points arent that good for fighting, but THERE
IS something there"

Which is incorrect.
There is NOTHING there.

The whole deal is 100% shit.

It would be counter to evolution if humans developed areas where we could be
hurt with light touches.

I was just at McDonalds and there were like 20 kids running like animals
through the huge indoor playplace.
They were bumping each other, falling over, throwing stoff on each other.
It was total mayhem.
Yet in all that jostling no pressure points were hit?
It is common sense that this this is nonsense.

Unfortunatly most dont have common sense.
So your link is useful.

Dildo is a douchebag.
It is always good to see him exposed.

Gi

mark goldberg

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Jun 4, 2004, 11:35:53 PM6/4/04
to
Rue The Day wrote:

> This video clip is priceless:

She just stands there and goes
> "Oww! You hit me!". IT DIDN'T WORK. No KO. Then they drag shithead
> to a local BJJ school and he attempts his PP knockouts on one student
> after another. Nothing happens. Nada. Zip. Zilch. He hits the one
> guy and the guy starts laughing. He actually tells the guy "you
> probably feel lightheaded and dizzy right now" and the BJJ guy is like
> "I don't feel anything". Then Dildo Jr goes into a bunch of excuses
> about why it didn't work.
>
> Priceless.

It wasn't quite like you discribed it there.. he just tapped her, and
she said huh?! because she wanted to be knocked for a loop and he didn't
do anything, just tap her.

With the jj guys, that was more interesting, because it had no effect,
and then he says it only works on 40% of people who are susceptible.

Which is the point.

Mark

Russell Stutely

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Jun 5, 2004, 6:58:50 AM6/5/04
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> With the jj guys, that was more interesting, because it had no effect,
> and then he says it only works on 40% of people who are susceptible.

But what %age will be susceptible to the massive advert he got from
that new story?

It was the biggest load of bollocks I have ever seen, even taking into
account Dillmans previous lot.

Almost all his students were big fat fu£$s who have never done a days
training in their lives. Neither has he, by the look of him. It is
this type of charlatan that totally messes up the MA World.

deathtouchdemo my arse. I have asked this guy to try his stuff with us
weeks ago and he never replied.

Oh well, more money in the Dillman purse

mark goldberg

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Jun 5, 2004, 8:34:50 AM6/5/04
to
Russell Stutely wrote:
>>With the jj guys, that was more interesting, because it had no effect,
>>and then he says it only works on 40% of people who are susceptible.
>
>
> But what %age will be susceptible to the massive advert he got from
> that new story?

I don't doubt the problem. But that is the world.
And with enough real press out there, and real results edging there way
into the martial world... perhaps the effects are less now, than years
ago.

Look... The problem of a free press is that it takes much more work to
separate wheat from chaff, flotsam from a raft and especially bovine
fertilizer from granola.

Things don't change that much.
Forty years ago, as a young teen- I took a summer of okinawan karate-
and went to see one of the korean guys do a seminar. Duk son son, was
his name, I think. Nice older man. 10th dan- very high up.

So when he asked for someone to come out of the crowd, I gladly joined him.

He showed me and the crowd a secret move with just his two finger
slapping across my wrist, which did make my skinny wrist go a bit numb.

And he smiled broadly and I tried to accommodate him and be polite and
smiled meekly.

But walking back to the bleechers, I was thinking to my young self. I
was thinking about the thick necked guys who love to fight and hurt
others, who stomp on your fingers, and kick you in the face- and I was
thinking about some of the real viciousness I had seen peripherally in
the world.

And it looked like some kind of artifice... even though I didn't know
what an artifice was.

I knew something about pretension, and fakery... I was beginning to see
this in the world. People wanting to believe things out of proportion
and time... and it worried me.

I was 15.

Things haven't changed much.

And everyone has to understand... the world is a challenge.
You have to learn, and laugh, and sometimes cry, and learn some more.

Mark

Rue The Day

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Jun 5, 2004, 8:42:19 AM6/5/04
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mark goldberg <msgol...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<tcbwc.84$c76.3...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...

> Rue The Day wrote:
>
> > This video clip is priceless:
> She just stands there and goes
> > "Oww! You hit me!". IT DIDN'T WORK. No KO. Then they drag shithead
> > to a local BJJ school and he attempts his PP knockouts on one student
> > after another. Nothing happens. Nada. Zip. Zilch. He hits the one
> > guy and the guy starts laughing. He actually tells the guy "you
> > probably feel lightheaded and dizzy right now" and the BJJ guy is like
> > "I don't feel anything". Then Dildo Jr goes into a bunch of excuses
> > about why it didn't work.
> >
> > Priceless.
> It wasn't quite like you discribed it there.. he just tapped her, and
> she said huh?! because she wanted to be knocked for a loop and he didn't
> do anything, just tap her.

What did you expect him to do? Unleash a Muay Thai round kick to the
side of her head? The whole idea of pressure points is that they're
not supposed to require a lot of force to work. He hit her on the
side of the neck with roughly the same amount of force that he used to
KO his students. He was clearly expecting to get a reaction from her
and he didn't get one except for her saying "Oww".

> With the jj guys, that was more interesting, because it had no effect,
> and then he says it only works on 40% of people who are susceptible.

What a lame excuse. Assuming what the charlatan said was true, which
it isn't, who in their right mind would want to learn techniques that
only work on 40% of the population?

> Which is the point.

No, the point is that pressure points and all of the associated mumbo
jumbo are a load of bullshit and the people who advocate them are
frauds.

Watch the video again and look at the average student in those classes
- a bunch of skinny teenagers, middle aged women, and out of shape
men. People looking for a shortcut. The only skill that fraudulent
Dildo wannabe has is the skill of deception. Notice how he tells
those suckers in his class exactly what he expects to happen before he
does the technique on them and then again as he's doing it. That's
cult behavior. Those weak willed lemmings have actually deluded
themselves into believing this nonsense works. When he tries it on
the news lady, who is basically a professional skeptic, his
self-hypnosis crap doesn't work. Same thing goes for when he tries it
on the JJ guys.

I feel sorry for that guys students if they ever get into a street
fight and realize how worthless their techniques are.

Rue The Day

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Jun 5, 2004, 11:56:56 AM6/5/04
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billma...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote in message news:<20040604210545...@mb-m27.aol.com>...

> It is in vogue to say "Pressure points arent that good for fighting, but THERE
> IS something there"
>
> Which is incorrect.
> There is NOTHING there.
>
> The whole deal is 100% shit.
>
> It would be counter to evolution if humans developed areas where we could be
> hurt with light touches.

The whole belief system is retarded. I've actually read some of this
stuff for amusement at the local book store. This whole business
about there being a bunch of bullshit energy meridians running through
your body and that each one is assigned one of five elements and that
there is a cycle of destruction (fire beats wood, water beats fire,
etc.) and that if you strike the meridians in the order of that cycle
that the person will fall unconscious or die or piss/shit themselves
depending upon how you perform the strike is a bunch of incoherent
babble. The entire ancient oriental view of how the human body and
the universe works is just plain wrong and it's downright silly that
some people still believe it in this day and age.

I also find it funny that the EMT's found the students pulse, blood
pressure, and skin conductivity all went up when they were "KOed".
Those are stress reactions, not the reactions of an unconscious
person. Those are also the same things measured in a lie detector
test. The Dildo students all failed it.

mark goldberg

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Jun 5, 2004, 12:57:55 PM6/5/04
to
Rue The Day wrote:

>
> What did you expect him to do?

There's the thing of poking at strangers, esp. female one's and wanting
I guess to just create some odd sensation that would impress her... it
didn't. So it was a waste.
But it was clear he was just tapping her to show some odd nerve sensation.


>
>>With the jj guys, that was more interesting, because it had no effect,
>>and then he says it only works on 40% of people who are susceptible.
>
>
> What a lame excuse. Assuming what the charlatan said was true, which
> it isn't, who in their right mind would want to learn techniques that
> only work on 40% of the population?
>

Okay, that's the point- if it's peripheral, at best, then for sober
minded people, you'd go with percentage techniques and skills and worry
about oddities later.

It's similar to learning things for a different body type than you
possess- a short person uses and emphasizes a different variety of
skills than a tall person. Trying to do things your own body can't
really do is a waster.

Look... the chinese have played with these things for a long long time.
The advertising and mythologizing makes it hard to know, whats actually
useful attainable skills. But if you check some reputable literature-
they don't teach this stuff as just separate skills- it's part of
grappling and striking arts- and not the sillyness that the dillentantes
over here make it out to be. Just to make shots target, let alone land
on pressure points, nerve roots etc, is I imagine very difficult- esp.
if someone is beating the shit out of you- and your mind is slightly
distracted by the blood existing ones mouth nose and anus all at the
same time :^)

So... sales pitches such as this guys, seems rudimentary even on the
face of it. If it is near impossible to perform in a real physical
encounter- unless you have very skilled standup or ground or whatever-
to make up the majority of what you're using, then the concept they're
selling is snake oil.

>
> Watch the video again and look at the average student in those classes
> - a bunch of skinny teenagers, middle aged women, and out of shape
> men. People looking for a shortcut.

I agree about the shortcut angle. That's where it leaves me with that
bad taste.
Only worked, useable skills, trained assiduously can be counted on in
combat or competition. Unless someone drops a safe out the windown on
your opponent.

Which only happens in cartoons, or the three stooges.

Pick two fingers!


>
> I feel sorry for that guys students if they ever get into a street
> fight and realize how worthless their techniques are.

Then it will be up to young intelligent, honorable types to re-educate
them and teach them better skills, better logic, and bring the level up.
That will put an end to this delusion.

Mark

Gernot Hassenpflug

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Jun 5, 2004, 1:15:37 PM6/5/04
to
where's Chas in this thread? Do the South/East Asian styles have such
concepts, or do they prefer mechanical ones? In aikido, a lot of the
'ki' is just mental deception (hallucination if you like). Then the
mechanical part of the technique works much easier :-)
--
G Hassenpflug * Takemusu Aikido Juku Dojo Osaka

Chas

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Jun 5, 2004, 1:43:10 PM6/5/04
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"Gernot Hassenpflug" <g...@nospam.com> wrote

> where's Chas in this thread? Do the South/East Asian styles have such
> concepts, or do they prefer mechanical ones? In aikido, a lot of the
> 'ki' is just mental deception (hallucination if you like). Then the
> mechanical part of the technique works much easier :-)

Our stuff is far broader than 'pressure points'- it's an entire syllabus
built on attacking the vulnerabilities of the opponent.
And, we don't do 'no-hurt' techniques much- the combinations of
vulnerabilities attacked is the key. It would be hard to convince me that
such things don't work, as I've had them done on me, seen them done on
others, and learned some of them myself.

Chas


zxcv

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Jun 5, 2004, 1:58:49 PM6/5/04
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"Rue The Day" <ruet...@outgun.com> wrote in message
news:a44a8c58.04060...@posting.google.com...

What type of media player do I need to view this and where can I get it?

'Vejita' S. Cousin

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Jun 5, 2004, 2:31:15 PM6/5/04
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In article <40c209cc$0$2922$61fe...@news.rcn.com>,
>> http://www.wijg.net/tasty.rm

>>
>What type of media player do I need to view this and where can I get it?

It's a real video, but DO NOT d/load and install reall player, it's a
bloated pice of spy ware and changes 1/2 of the assoications on your PC.
I would get Real Alternative instead:

http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Real_Alternative.htm

Wayne Dobson

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Jun 5, 2004, 2:50:34 PM6/5/04
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"BillMahoney68" <billma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040604210545...@mb-m27.aol.com...

> Dildo is a douchebag.
> It is always good to see him exposed.

Feudian slips involving phallic symbols and gleeful reminicing on spying
naked men. Who's got the gay, huh, dumbass?

--
Wayne
"Aka Dobbie the House Elf."


Wayne Dobson

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Jun 5, 2004, 2:53:42 PM6/5/04
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"Russell Stutely" <rus...@russellstutely.com> wrote in message
news:669ad581.04060...@posting.google.com...

> deathtouchdemo my arse.

Bill Mahoney knows all about this. Just ask him. He's had it down to him
many times.

Wayne Dobson

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Jun 5, 2004, 3:07:26 PM6/5/04
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"'Vejita' S. Cousin" <sco...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:c9t3hj$dpk$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...

Good man! Just the remedy. I had to reinstall my whole operating system,
after installing this gremlin unto my system.

Tony

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Jun 5, 2004, 3:12:52 PM6/5/04
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"BillMahoney68" <billma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040604210545...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> It is in vogue to say "Pressure points arent that good for fighting, but
THERE
> IS something there"
>
> Which is incorrect.
> There is NOTHING there.
>
> The whole deal is 100% shit.

Oh come on - there are some really good pressure points that work quite
well:

The solar plex, the temple, the nose, the eyes...


T

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Jun 5, 2004, 3:33:45 PM6/5/04
to
Tony wrote:
> "BillMahoney68" <billma...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040604210545...@mb-m27.aol.com...
>> It is in vogue to say "Pressure points aren't that good for fighting,

>> but THERE IS something there"
>>
>> Which is incorrect.
>> There is NOTHING there.
>>
>> The whole deal is 100% shit.
>
> Oh come on - there are some really good pressure points that work
> quite well:
>
> The solar plexus, the temple, the nose, the eyes...

Vagus nerve, testicles.

And easily broken bones, like clavicles and metacarpals.

But the ki stuff is silly.


RueTheDay

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Jun 5, 2004, 4:26:56 PM6/5/04
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"Tony" <ton...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:10c46pk...@corp.supernews.com...

If you want to talk about anatomical weakpoints like the solar plexus,
groin, eyes, floating ribs, etc. according to the principles of modern
western physiology, that's fine and I don't think anyone will have an issue
with that. Obviously punching someone in the solar plexus will have more of
an effect than punching them in the pec. It's only when folks start talking
about chi, accupuncture meridians, and a bunch of other bullshit oriental
metaphysics that I take issue.


zxcv

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Jun 5, 2004, 4:29:42 PM6/5/04
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"Rue The Day" <ruet...@outgun.com> wrote in message
news:a44a8c58.04060...@posting.google.com...

I finally saw the clip. Some really funny parts:

1. The kid at the end who promised "anyone" who did not think it was real
could get knocked out right after the instructor refuses to knock out the
reporter. "Too dangerous".

2. He cannot affect any ju jitsu students because they are "natural
athletes". Not at my school. A few perhaps but most no. I am sure it is
the same at the Chicago school. Of course these students who have never had
a single Dim Mak class can easily redirect the energy but the instructor is
knocked right out by one of his students touching his wrist.

Someone in Chicago PLEASE go there and bring a camcorder and then G&P this
jackass.


RueTheDay

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Jun 5, 2004, 4:35:43 PM6/5/04
to
"mark goldberg" <msgol...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:nYmwc.4662$c76.2...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...

> Rue The Day wrote:
>
> >
> > What did you expect him to do?
>
> There's the thing of poking at strangers, esp. female one's and wanting
> I guess to just create some odd sensation that would impress her... it
> didn't. So it was a waste.
> But it was clear he was just tapping her to show some odd nerve sensation.

He slapped her on the side of the neck. It was pretty clear he was trying
to do a light touch knockout on her. It was also pretty clear that it
didn't work. Also, why did he refuse to do the no touch distance KO on her?
Because he knew that you have to be in the top 0.0001% of gullible morons
for that to work and he wasn't sensing that in her?

> >
> >>With the jj guys, that was more interesting, because it had no effect,
> >>and then he says it only works on 40% of people who are susceptible.
> >
> >
> > What a lame excuse. Assuming what the charlatan said was true, which
> > it isn't, who in their right mind would want to learn techniques that
> > only work on 40% of the population?
> >
>
> Okay, that's the point- if it's peripheral, at best, then for sober
> minded people, you'd go with percentage techniques and skills and worry
> about oddities later.

It's not an oddity, it's a scam.

> It's similar to learning things for a different body type than you
> possess- a short person uses and emphasizes a different variety of
> skills than a tall person. Trying to do things your own body can't
> really do is a waster.

Don't compare this fraudulent PP crap to legitimate martial arts techniques.

> Look... the chinese have played with these things for a long long time.
> The advertising and mythologizing makes it hard to know, whats actually
> useful attainable skills. But if you check some reputable literature-
> they don't teach this stuff as just separate skills- it's part of
> grappling and striking arts- and not the sillyness that the dillentantes
> over here make it out to be. Just to make shots target, let alone land
> on pressure points, nerve roots etc, is I imagine very difficult- esp.
> if someone is beating the shit out of you- and your mind is slightly
> distracted by the blood existing ones mouth nose and anus all at the
> same time :^)

What part of "it's all bullshit and there's nothing to it" didn't you
understand?

> So... sales pitches such as this guys, seems rudimentary even on the
> face of it. If it is near impossible to perform in a real physical
> encounter- unless you have very skilled standup or ground or whatever-
> to make up the majority of what you're using, then the concept they're
> selling is snake oil.

No, the concept that they're selling is always snake oil. Period. The
video clip was of them trying to make it work in a controlled environment,
not in a real physical encounter. And it still didn't work. At least it
didn't work on people who weren't part of the fraud.

> >
> > Watch the video again and look at the average student in those classes
> > - a bunch of skinny teenagers, middle aged women, and out of shape
> > men. People looking for a shortcut.
>
> I agree about the shortcut angle. That's where it leaves me with that
> bad taste.
> Only worked, useable skills, trained assiduously can be counted on in
> combat or competition. Unless someone drops a safe out the windown on
> your opponent.
>
> Which only happens in cartoons, or the three stooges.
>
> Pick two fingers!
>
>
> >
> > I feel sorry for that guys students if they ever get into a street
> > fight and realize how worthless their techniques are.
>
> Then it will be up to young intelligent, honorable types to re-educate
> them and teach them better skills, better logic, and bring the level up.
> That will put an end to this delusion.

I'm afraid that the only thing that will put an end to this delusion is when
it gets someone killed.


RueTheDay

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Jun 5, 2004, 5:07:53 PM6/5/04
to
"zxcv" <zx...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:40c22d26$0$2931$61fe...@news.rcn.com...

> Someone in Chicago PLEASE go there and bring a camcorder and then G&P this
> jackass.

Better yet, someone please go to his public demo on July 23 and make an ass
out of him in front of the world.

http://www.deathtouchdemo.com/


mark goldberg

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Jun 5, 2004, 6:52:56 PM6/5/04
to

>>>I feel sorry for that guys students if they ever get into a street
>>>fight and realize how worthless their techniques are.
>>
>>Then it will be up to young intelligent, honorable types to re-educate
>>them and teach them better skills, better logic, and bring the level up.
>>That will put an end to this delusion.
>
>
> I'm afraid that the only thing that will put an end to this delusion is when
> it gets someone killed.
>
>

Most martial arts is not dedicated to much except the perception of
working at such... so the jump to competing for real, has lessened the
bullshit factor.

Look, sometime, a mma's student will get his neck broken- it's going to
happen.
Then the bullshit will be about banning the training and commercial venue.

Perception is everything- and my point- is there's enough history of
this in places where this area is trained soberly, but as a part of a
broader scheme of fighting and not as some hoo hah mystery making
unnecessary the whole gamut of training and drilling and practicing to
survive, let alone win, fights.

So yeah... this dill pickle version pisses you off.
Understandable.
Maybe time to just laugh at it, and appreciate what good honest training
is and take that to heart.


Mark

El Queso

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Jun 5, 2004, 7:12:53 PM6/5/04
to
Rue The Day wrote:

> billma...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote in message news:<20040604210545...@mb-m27.aol.com>...
>
>>It is in vogue to say "Pressure points arent that good for fighting, but THERE
>>IS something there"
>>
>>Which is incorrect.
>>There is NOTHING there.
>>
>>The whole deal is 100% shit.
>>
>>It would be counter to evolution if humans developed areas where we could be
>>hurt with light touches.
>
>
> The whole belief system is retarded. I've actually read some of this
> stuff for amusement at the local book store. This whole business
> about there being a bunch of bullshit energy meridians running through
> your body and that each one is assigned one of five elements and that
> there is a cycle of destruction (fire beats wood, water beats fire,
> etc.) and that if you strike the meridians in the order of that cycle
> that the person will fall unconscious or die or piss/shit themselves
> depending upon how you perform the strike is a bunch of incoherent
> babble. The entire ancient oriental view of how the human body and
> the universe works is just plain wrong and it's downright silly that
> some people still believe it in this day and age.

Actually, accupuncture is based on this system - and it is recommended
by the NIH for several conditions. There is real and fake - Dillman is a
fake, but that is no reason to dismiss the volumes of evidence on the
viability of Chinese medicine. The five elements and the descriptions of
organs (liver, kidneys, etc.) are not to be taken literally as in the
Western paradigm - if it is looked at like this, it is superstitious
hogwash. I am a skeptic, but I have had accupuncture work on a bad knee
when massage, anti-inflammatory drugs, and external medicines had not
helped. There is a baby in that bathwater - that's all I'm saying.
Queso

Earl Camembert

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Jun 5, 2004, 9:19:12 PM6/5/04
to
On 5 Jun 2004 08:56:56 -0700, ruet...@outgun.com (Rue The Day)
wrote:

>The entire ancient oriental view of how the human body and
>the universe works is just plain wrong and it's downright silly that
>some people still believe it in this day and age.

Yes and no. They can measure brain waves and electrical impulses in
the human body. That is what a stun gun does, disrupts the electrical
impulses that control the muscles.

Earl Camembert

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Jun 5, 2004, 9:24:13 PM6/5/04
to
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 12:12:52 -0700, "Tony" <ton...@dslextreme.com>
wrote:

If one applies enough pressure to any part of the body it will work.
When dildo struck the reporter on the side of her jaw he used one of
the points that require less pressure then any other point. All boxers
know about the button.

Dildo did get free advertising from the show listing his scheduled and
cost. He could not buy that kind of exposure. Call me any thing just
spell my name right.

Earl Camembert

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Jun 5, 2004, 9:32:25 PM6/5/04
to
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 17:07:53 -0400, "RueTheDay" <ruet...@outgun.com>
wrote:

The show will be controlled so the dildos will get the result they
want.
From the death touch to the afterlife how to hunt ghosts. Are you my
daddy?

Earl Camembert

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Jun 5, 2004, 9:48:53 PM6/5/04
to
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 02:15:37 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug <g...@nospam.com>
wrote:

>where's Chas in this thread? Do the South/East Asian styles have such
>concepts, or do they prefer mechanical ones? In aikido, a lot of the
>'ki' is just mental deception (hallucination if you like). Then the
>mechanical part of the technique works much easier :-)

"Ki" does exist but it is not what every one thinks it is. It is not
some mysterious force that only one with a rank as advanced as Yoda
can tap into.

In WTF/TKD we never mention "ki" but use what I believe it is. If one
is going to break a solid object with flesh and bone one must not
think about it. If one thinks about it there will be hesitation and
the object will not break and it will hurt. If one lets go and let
"ki" the object breaks and one does not feel any pain. It is the speed
generated by not hesitating with doubt or fear that does the trick.

Earl Camembert

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Jun 5, 2004, 9:50:16 PM6/5/04
to

Placebo effect?

Kevin Lowe

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Jun 5, 2004, 9:52:31 PM6/5/04
to
In article <Piswc.57551$zN5.34797@fed1read01>,
El Queso <the_chees...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Actually, accupuncture is based on this system - and it is recommended
> by the NIH for several conditions.

Nausea and what else? Whatever the hell it's "recommended" for ,
acupuncture sure as hell doesn't work as advertised.

> There is real and fake - Dillman is a
> fake, but that is no reason to dismiss the volumes of evidence on the
> viability of Chinese medicine.

Some of their pharmaceuticals work, most are crap. The rest of it's
just sensible living and a big ladleful of faith healing.

> The five elements and the descriptions of
> organs (liver, kidneys, etc.) are not to be taken literally as in the
> Western paradigm - if it is looked at like this, it is superstitious
> hogwash.

You can't take it literally because it's just garbage. There is no baby
in their diagnostic bathwater.

> I am a skeptic, but I have had accupuncture work on a bad knee
> when massage, anti-inflammatory drugs, and external medicines had not
> helped. There is a baby in that bathwater - that's all I'm saying.

Every mode of faith healing has suckers who will whine "Reiki cured my
gimpy ear after conventional medicine had failed!'. The fact is that
things go away of their own accord, often quite suddenly, and you simply
cannot tell from anecdotal evidence whether the faith healing had any
role to play in fixing whatever it was.

That's why we have double blind trials, and TCM tends to suck under
controlled conditions.

Acupuncture has proved mildly useful in one or two cases under
controlled trials, and more power to it. Knees weren't involved, unless
something developed and I missed it.

Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

Earl Camembert

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Jun 5, 2004, 9:53:55 PM6/5/04
to

By attacking the vulnerabilities do you mean if some one leaves his
guard down hit him in the face? I agree get combinations to the face
and it will work.

RueTheDay

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Jun 5, 2004, 10:08:29 PM6/5/04
to
"Kevin Lowe" <m...@private.net> wrote in message
news:me-EE640F.11...@individual.net...

> In article <Piswc.57551$zN5.34797@fed1read01>,
> El Queso <the_chees...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually, accupuncture is based on this system - and it is recommended
> > by the NIH for several conditions.
>
> Nausea and what else? Whatever the hell it's "recommended" for ,
> acupuncture sure as hell doesn't work as advertised.

Nausea, pain relief, assisting with quitting smoking. That's about it. The
same stuff that people use hypnosis and a whole host of other dubious
treatments for. Acupuncture has NEVER been shown to have any effect
whatsoever in treating cancer, heart disease, infectious diseases or any
other serious ailments.

Here's a good link on it:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

> > There is real and fake - Dillman is a
> > fake, but that is no reason to dismiss the volumes of evidence on the
> > viability of Chinese medicine.
>
> Some of their pharmaceuticals work, most are crap. The rest of it's
> just sensible living and a big ladleful of faith healing.
>
> > The five elements and the descriptions of
> > organs (liver, kidneys, etc.) are not to be taken literally as in the
> > Western paradigm - if it is looked at like this, it is superstitious
> > hogwash.
>
> You can't take it literally because it's just garbage. There is no baby
> in their diagnostic bathwater.

That's correct. If you go to 20 different acupuncturists complaining of the
same symptoms you will get 20 different diagnoses - stagnant air, an excess
of yin chi over yang chi, a blockage along the triple warmer meridian, your
wood element is out of whack with your fire element, etc. It's all
nonsense. If by some chance two acupuncturists come up with the exact same
diagnosis, it's almost certain that they will give different treatments,
i.e., they will prick different acupoints to treat it. There is no science
behind it.

> > I am a skeptic, but I have had accupuncture work on a bad knee
> > when massage, anti-inflammatory drugs, and external medicines had not
> > helped. There is a baby in that bathwater - that's all I'm saying.
>
> Every mode of faith healing has suckers who will whine "Reiki cured my
> gimpy ear after conventional medicine had failed!'. The fact is that
> things go away of their own accord, often quite suddenly, and you simply
> cannot tell from anecdotal evidence whether the faith healing had any
> role to play in fixing whatever it was.
>
> That's why we have double blind trials, and TCM tends to suck under
> controlled conditions.

To which the charlatans will respond by saying that western science cannot
be used to explain it, or some similar such horseshit.


Fraser Johnston

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Jun 5, 2004, 10:11:17 PM6/5/04
to

"zxcv" <zx...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:40c22d26$0$2931$61fe...@news.rcn.com...

I heard there was a thread on the underground about how he rolled with the
guys at the BJJ school and they annihilated him.

Fraser


RueTheDay

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Jun 5, 2004, 10:11:47 PM6/5/04
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"Earl Camembert" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
news:g4s4c0d7amo03vstf...@4ax.com...

> On 5 Jun 2004 08:56:56 -0700, ruet...@outgun.com (Rue The Day)
> wrote:
>
> >The entire ancient oriental view of how the human body and
> >the universe works is just plain wrong and it's downright silly that
> >some people still believe it in this day and age.
>
> Yes and no. They can measure brain waves and electrical impulses in
> the human body.

That's right. Nerves pass impulses through both chemical and electrical
means. That has absolutely nothing to do with chi, meridians, 5 elements,
or any of the other traditional chinese medicine nonsense.

>That is what a stun gun does, disrupts the electrical
> impulses that control the muscles.

And the engine in my car ignites the gasoline/air mixture in its cylinders
via an electrical impulse sent to the spark plug. What does any of this
have to do with the subject at hand?


Jacob Andersen

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Jun 6, 2004, 1:10:24 AM6/6/04
to
"El Queso" <the_chees...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Piswc.57551$zN5.34797@fed1read01...

Accupuncture has a pretty good track record for pain relief. What mechanisms
it works through I have no idea. It might even be a lot of placebo, but too
many people have had good results from it to dismiss it entirely. However, I
have never heard of any credible accounts of accupuncture being used for
anything else, and it DOES claim to be about much more than pain relief.

/Jacob
--
"You think he didn't know the 8 points and how to end a life with a super
quickness?"
- RestInParadise


Jacob Andersen

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Jun 6, 2004, 1:16:18 AM6/6/04
to
"Earl Camembert" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
news:9et4c0tb935ii6s50...@4ax.com...

I say this is mostly bullshit and that:

> It is the speed
> generated by not hesitating with doubt or fear that does the trick.

Was the correct part. Ki has nothing to do with not hesitating.
Ki is supposed to be some kind of " life energy" or similar and it remains a
mystical explanation for things that weren't well understood by those who
coined it. Just how people used to think the sun was dragged across the sky
on a chariot.

Jacob Andersen

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Jun 6, 2004, 1:18:46 AM6/6/04
to
"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
news:2ifcq8F...@uni-berlin.de...

>
> "zxcv" <zx...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:40c22d26$0$2931$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>> "Rue The Day" <ruet...@outgun.com> wrote in message
>> news:a44a8c58.04060...@posting.google.com...
>> > This video clip is priceless:

> I heard there was a thread on the underground about how he rolled with the


> guys at the BJJ school and they annihilated him.
>
> Fraser

That's so unsurprising that it's hardly even interesting.

Don Geddis

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Jun 6, 2004, 1:27:58 AM6/6/04
to
billma...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote on 05 Jun 2004 01:0:
> It is in vogue to say "Pressure points arent that good for fighting, but
> THERE IS something there"
> Which is incorrect. There is NOTHING there.
> I was just at McDonalds and there were like 20 kids running like animals
> through the huge indoor playplace.
> They were bumping each other, falling over, throwing stoff on each other.
> It was total mayhem.
> Yet in all that jostling no pressure points were hit?
> It is common sense that this this is nonsense.

Come on, it's not _that_ ridiculous. It happens to be a wrong, theory
of fighting, but surely you agree that there are some magic places that
have much more of an effect when you hit them, than other nearby places:

1. "Funny bone", i.e. behind the elbow on the shoulder side. Kids hit this
all the time. It does make the whole arm numb for a short while.

2. "One-strike KO". Like the recent Ralph vs. Gomi fight. 9 times out of 10,
a knee strike on an incoming shot isn't going to knock out the shooter. Even
if you make contact with the skull. But if you happen to hit in just the
right spot, at just the right time, then you might get the knockout with your
first contact.

I think the error is the belief that you can reliably hit these kinds of
things in the chaos of a competitive fight. Or, perhaps, in the mystical
"Eastern" theories of chi meridians and liver points.

But a couple of vulnerable points on the body, where there are nerves more
exposed than in most other points? Where precision strikes would have more
effect than just whacking the big muscles or the top of the skull?

I wouldn't say that was such complete nonsense. The temple is a pretty good
target. Maybe it's just too obvious, and you don't want to dignify it with
the name "pressure points". Especially given the rest of the crap those guys
claim at the same time.

-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis webm...@bjj.org http://bjj.org/

BillMahoney68

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Jun 6, 2004, 3:17:47 AM6/6/04
to
>: Don Geddis

>004 01:0:
>> It is in vogue to say "Pressure points arent that good for fighting, but
>> THERE IS something there"
>> Which is incorrect. There is NOTHING there.
>> I was just at McDonalds and there were like 20 kids running like animals
>> through the huge indoor playplace.
>> They were bumping each other, falling over, throwing stoff on each other.
>> It was total mayhem.
>> Yet in all that jostling no pressure points were hit?
>> It is common sense that this this is nonsense.
>
>Come on, it's not _that_ ridiculous. It happens to be a wrong, theory
>of fighting, but surely you agree that there are some magic places that
>have much more of an effect when you hit them, than other nearby places:
>
>1. "Funny bone", i.e. behind the elbow on the shoulder side. Kids hit this
>all the time. It does make the whole arm numb for a short while.

Hitting a funnybone has little value in combat.
It is an annoyance.

>
>2. "One-strike KO". Like the recent Ralph vs. Gomi fight.

If you hit someone solidly oin the head very hard the brain bounces around and
they go out.
Okay, ill grant you that.
But this has nothing to do with dildo.

>
>I think the error is the belief that you can reliably hit these kinds of
>things in the chaos of a competitive fight.

I gotta add that if you hit a tough guy ANYWHERE that with a blow that isnt
HARD, it wont do shit.
Gi

Rue The Day

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Jun 6, 2004, 8:23:48 AM6/6/04
to
Don Geddis <webm...@bjj.org> wrote in message news:<87r7stg...@sidious.geddis.org>...

I think you're missing the point. Everyone knows that the human body
has certain vulnerabilities - eyes, throat, groin, etc. Anyone who's
boxed knows that a punch right on the point of the chin is far more
likely to KO someone than a punch to the forehead because of the way
it rattles your brain in your skull. But that's not what these
pressure point guys are claiming. They're claiming that relatively
light taps on the arms and body can produce anything from a KO up to
and including death depending upon what points are hit and the order
in which they are hit. That is a crock of shit.

caterbro

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Jun 6, 2004, 11:46:29 AM6/6/04
to

> >I think the error is the belief that you can reliably hit these kinds of
> >things in the chaos of a competitive fight.
>
> I gotta add that if you hit a tough guy ANYWHERE that with a blow that isnt
> HARD, it wont do shit.
> Gi

my own teacher's teacher, who is well over sixty, was watching a tape of
dillman doing knockouts with my teacher.

he is not hip to this AT ALL, while my teacher is excited about it- i personally
am dubious as to the value.

anyway, we're watching this and at one point he says, "oh- [dillman]'s actually
striking them"- you can see the strong blows to the neck, jaw, and temple,
watch the head snap back. so, apparently you do hit hard.

he is still unconvinced as to their value as a training tool, and i agree- if we
all trained 8 hours a day and got bored, it might make a good course of study,
or maybe when i'm old and gray.

the anatomical study is interesting, too.

when i went and got a PP knockout, the guy hit me hard enough to knock me
back a few feet, although had i cared too, i would not have gone down. I was
very receptive.

carl

Don Geddis

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Jun 6, 2004, 2:00:56 PM6/6/04
to
billma...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote on 06 Jun 2004 07:1:
> If you hit someone solidly oin the head very hard the brain bounces around
> and they go out. Okay, ill grant you that. But this has nothing to do
> with dildo.

So let me ask you: do you think it matters at all _where_ you hit them
in the head? Your "brain bounces" theory seem to suggest that it's just the
impact, and it doesn't really matter where the point of contact is.

Yet lots of people seem to believe that the easiest ("one-punch") knockouts
occur either on the chin (point or side), or the temple (between the eye and
the ear).

Do you disagree? Do you really not care where you hit the guy, and find just
as many knockouts with any (head) target? Like, the top of the skull, or
the forehead/bridge of nose, or the back of the skull, etc.?

-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis webm...@bjj.org http://bjj.org/

Instead of mousetraps, what about baby traps? Not to harm the babies,
but just to hold them down until they can be removed.
-- "Lost" Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey [SNL]

El Queso

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Jun 6, 2004, 4:24:12 PM6/6/04
to

Accupuncture makes no claims, people do.
Queso

> /Jacob

Badger_South

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Jun 6, 2004, 5:48:55 PM6/6/04
to
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 07:18:46 +0200, "Jacob Andersen" <d...@glem.det> wrote:

>"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
>news:2ifcq8F...@uni-berlin.de...
>>
>> "zxcv" <zx...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:40c22d26$0$2931$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>>> "Rue The Day" <ruet...@outgun.com> wrote in message
>>> news:a44a8c58.04060...@posting.google.com...
>>> > This video clip is priceless:
>
>> I heard there was a thread on the underground about how he rolled with the
>> guys at the BJJ school and they annihilated him.
>>
>> Fraser
>
>That's so unsurprising that it's hardly even interesting.
>
>/Jacob

I dunno, JA, it's very surprising that the guy would go and roll with them,
given his rotund condition and style.

I give him props for going over there and rolling, even if he does waffle a
little on the 'annihilation'. ;-)

-Badger
"World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

Jacob Andersen

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Jun 6, 2004, 7:52:52 PM6/6/04
to
"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
news:je37c0dda9c0s0cgt...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 07:18:46 +0200, "Jacob Andersen" <d...@glem.det> wrote:
>
>>"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
>>news:2ifcq8F...@uni-berlin.de...
>>>
>>> "zxcv" <zx...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>> news:40c22d26$0$2931$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>>>> "Rue The Day" <ruet...@outgun.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:a44a8c58.04060...@posting.google.com...
>>>> > This video clip is priceless:
>>
>>> I heard there was a thread on the underground about how he rolled with
>>> the
>>> guys at the BJJ school and they annihilated him.
>>>
>>> Fraser
>>
>>That's so unsurprising that it's hardly even interesting.
>>
>>/Jacob
>
> I dunno, JA, it's very surprising that the guy would go and roll with
> them,
> given his rotund condition and style.

That's true. That part is definitely surprising. In fact I think the most
surprising part is that he MUST believe the hype himself. I don't really
know what to take from that.

'Vejita' S. Cousin

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Jun 6, 2004, 8:24:41 PM6/6/04
to
In article <FWKwc.60634$zN5.44488@fed1read01>,

>> Accupuncture has a pretty good track record for pain relief. What mechanisms
>> it works through I have no idea. It might even be a lot of placebo, but too
>> many people have had good results from it to dismiss it entirely. However, I
>> have never heard of any credible accounts of accupuncture being used for
>> anything else, and it DOES claim to be about much more than pain relief.
>
>Accupuncture makes no claims, people do.

For acute pain relief acupuncture works very well (double blinded
studies have been performed numerous times). For pretty much anything
else acupuncture is no better than placebo. That it works, how it works,
and/or why it works are different questions.
The basic concepts behind acupuncture are pure crap, and most science
based schools of thought care more about why something works. But for the
user/patient all they care is that it works. For the MD they just need to
know how it works.
In the end I'm a scientist so I only care about what you can prove,
and the evidence you bring to support it. Theory is nice,
data/experimention is better. For acupunture there's a lot of good data
(for acute pain). For chi/ki, pressure points, dim mak, etc. there is
ZERO good data to support the cliams that are made.

BillMahoney68

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Jun 6, 2004, 9:12:34 PM6/6/04
to
>m: Don Geddis

>2004 07:1:
>> If you hit someone solidly oin the head very hard the brain bounces around
>> and they go out. Okay, ill grant you that. But this has nothing to do
>> with dildo.
>
>So let me ask you: do you think it matters at all _where_ you hit them
>in the head? Your "brain bounces" theory seem to suggest that it's just the
>impact, and it doesn't really matter where the point of contact is.

Not at all.The better place to hit em is where the brain bounces more.But this


has nothing to do with dildo.

>


>Yet lots of people seem to believe that the easiest ("one-punch") knockouts
>occur either on the chin (point or side), or the temple (between the eye and
>the ear).

Whichever moves the head more from the angle you are throwing.

Gi

BillMahoney68

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Jun 6, 2004, 9:14:21 PM6/6/04
to
>om: sco...@u.washington.edu ('Vejita' S. Cousin)

>>> many people have had good results from it to dismiss it entirely. However,
>I
>>> have never heard of any credible accounts of accupuncture being used for
>>> anything else, and it DOES claim to be about much more than pain relief.
>>
>>Accupuncture makes no claims, people do.
>
> For acute pain relief acupuncture works very well (double blinded
>studies have been performed numerous times

And many such studies have said acupuncture does NOT work.
Just saw one on the scifi channel the other day.

Gi

zxcv

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Jun 6, 2004, 11:52:41 PM6/6/04
to
"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
news:2ifcq8F...@uni-berlin.de...
>

Did he do that while the reporter was there? If so why was no footage
shown?


phauna

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Jun 7, 2004, 12:50:57 AM6/7/04
to

"'Vejita' S. Cousin" <sco...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:ca0ck9$pke$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...

Bullshit there are good studies for acute pain.


Tony

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Jun 7, 2004, 12:52:45 AM6/7/04
to
"RueTheDay" <ruet...@outgun.com> wrote in message
news:udCdnT4CeYY...@comcast.com...
> "Tony" <ton...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
> news:10c46pk...@corp.supernews.com...

> > "BillMahoney68" <billma...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20040604210545...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> > > It is in vogue to say "Pressure points arent that good for fighting,
but
> > THERE
> > > IS something there"
> > >
> > > Which is incorrect.
> > > There is NOTHING there.
> > >
> > > The whole deal is 100% shit.
> >
> > Oh come on - there are some really good pressure points that work quite
> > well:
> >
> > The solar plex, the temple, the nose, the eyes...
>
> If you want to talk about anatomical weakpoints like the solar plexus,
> groin, eyes, floating ribs, etc. according to the principles of modern
> western physiology, that's fine and I don't think anyone will have an
issue
> with that. Obviously punching someone in the solar plexus will have more
of
> an effect than punching them in the pec. It's only when folks start
talking
> about chi, accupuncture meridians, and a bunch of other bullshit oriental
> metaphysics that I take issue.

I was joking!

Tony

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Jun 7, 2004, 12:58:08 AM6/7/04
to
"RueTheDay" <ruet...@outgun.com> wrote in message
news:pNKdnXVIXfs...@comcast.com...

> "Earl Camembert" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
> news:g4s4c0d7amo03vstf...@4ax.com...
> > On 5 Jun 2004 08:56:56 -0700, ruet...@outgun.com (Rue The Day)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >The entire ancient oriental view of how the human body and
> > >the universe works is just plain wrong and it's downright silly that
> > >some people still believe it in this day and age.
> >
> > Yes and no. They can measure brain waves and electrical impulses in
> > the human body.
>
> That's right. Nerves pass impulses through both chemical and electrical
> means. That has absolutely nothing to do with chi, meridians, 5 elements,
> or any of the other traditional chinese medicine nonsense.

I have sometimes found that explaining things in terms of "ki" and
visualizations helps to achieve the desired end. I'll grant that I also
explain that the "ki" stuff and the visualizations are only aids to
understanding, rather than trying to explain all of the very minute things
that the visualization changes, so maybe that makes my approach somewhat
different.

Ki as an easy means to understand and visualize more complex phisiological
things I think is OK - as long as it's understood as such. As a mystical
"Force" (thank you Lucas), I'm not prepared to say it's crap, but I'll say I
have NEVER seen any evidence that it exists, and that's after many years of
looking for such evidence. You're gonna have to prove it.


Earl Camembert

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Jun 7, 2004, 1:35:24 AM6/7/04
to
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:50:57 +1000, "phauna" <pha...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

URL?

Earl Camembert

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Jun 7, 2004, 1:36:36 AM6/7/04
to
On 07 Jun 2004 01:14:21 GMT, billma...@aol.com (BillMahoney68)
wrote:

URL?

phauna

unread,
Jun 7, 2004, 5:12:19 AM6/7/04
to

"Earl Camembert" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
news:9lv7c05gr62gvlt70...@4ax.com...

You first.


Sucka

unread,
Jun 7, 2004, 11:02:34 AM6/7/04
to
>that
>there is a cycle of destruction (fire beats wood, water beats fire,
>etc.) and that if you strike the meridians in the order of that cycle
>that the person will fall unconscious or die or piss/shit themselves
>depending upon how you perform the strike is a bunch of incoherent
>babble. The entire ancient oriental view of how the human body and

>the universe works is just plain wrong and it's downright silly that
>some people still believe it in this day and age.

I wonder why that is...are the chinks THAT good of salesmen?

I mean, their ENTIRE nutritional "science," medical "science," all of it, is
superstitious BULLSHIT. It's just far more detailed than the "leeches cure
fever" shit that westerners came up with when we were spouting BS. I
mean...geezus. These asians went so deep into their superstitions that they
came up with meridians and chi energy and all of this crap. That's meticulous
bordering on OC disorder.

Trav

Katana

unread,
Jun 7, 2004, 12:27:53 PM6/7/04
to
"zxcv" <zx...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<40c3e692$0$2921$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...

> "Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
> news:2ifcq8F...@uni-berlin.de...

...

> > I heard there was a thread on the underground about how he rolled with the
> > guys at the BJJ school and they annihilated him.
> >
> > Fraser
> >
> >
>
> Did he do that while the reporter was there? If so why was no footage
> shown?

Supposedly it was caught on camera. If I recall, the forum poster said
he put the guy in an armbar while the pressure point guru placed his
fingers on the guy's navel. He then proclaimed that his opponent
should be feeling his energy being drained. The BJJ'er then armbarred
him until he heard the guys elbow pop. He tried this demo again
apparently and same thing happened. It wasn't shown in the show. Only
the newsroom editor knows why... I can't find the link now, perhaps
someone can post the Underground thread link if they still have it.
There was a huge thread about this over at www.bullshido.com a few
weeks back. You can go there to read about it.

ordosclan

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Jun 7, 2004, 3:31:27 PM6/7/04
to
ruet...@outgun.com (Rue The Day) wrote in message news:<a44a8c58.04060...@posting.google.com>...

> This video clip is priceless:
>
> http://www.wijg.net/tasty.rm
>
> One of Dildo's 7th degree blackbelts claims to be able to do all the
> usual light touch knockouts AND he claims to be able to knock people
> out from a distance without touching them using "internal energy". He
> calls himself the "human stungun".
>
> A local Fox news affiliate sends their news crew to investigate. They
> film him touching his students on the arms and they're dropping like
> flies. Then he knocks a bunch of them over from across the room
> Yellow Bamboo style.
>
> So the female news lady asks him to do it on her. He refuses to do
> the energy knockout on her but instead goes for the pressure point
> knockout and clocks her on the neck. She just stands there and goes
> "Oww! You hit me!". IT DIDN'T WORK. No KO. Then they drag shithead
> to a local BJJ school and he attempts his PP knockouts on one student
> after another. Nothing happens. Nada. Zip. Zilch. He hits the one
> guy and the guy starts laughing. He actually tells the guy "you
> probably feel lightheaded and dizzy right now" and the BJJ guy is like
> "I don't feel anything". Then Dildo Jr goes into a bunch of excuses
> about why it didn't work.
>
> Priceless.

He should get a degree in medicine and make 100k a year pulling the
same routine. One girl was telling me how her boyfriend bought her a
soft bristled toothbrush after she complained her gums bled after
brushing. And how he would check her teeth like a dentist after she
brushed. I said: "Just stop brushing".

Unfortunatly, I cant charge $40 for the "consultation". Nor on
subsequent follow up visits every 6 months. She didnt think my joke
was funny. It wasnt a joke I was serious. If your gums bleed when
you brush, it means you havent ever brushed (microtrauma) your teeth
consistenly in the past. She probably started brushing to look more
"clean" or "normal". A girl from hong kong going to college in the
UK...

These guys have karate backgrounds. I've seen the stuff they do but
its not impressive. They dont do any of the training (since they dont
talk about it) for training HOW to hit. There is an old 1800's text
that talks about the methods that were referenced in some books (read
as plagarized). All those old books were reprinted numerous times
with ommitions and deletions. Hitting stack of mulberry paper,
thrusting into beans, moving the cotton on a string, striking at a
candle from a little over arms length, ect. Plus the more esoteric
training of the eyes and using the sunlight and moon (because the
large intestine links directly or indirectly to the third eye in
various ways). If you did these kind of training right (avoid the
harder materials when training thrusting the fingers) you'd be at the
legendary level of some of the old masters. Who could x-ray into the
body, select an organ and strike the body, causing damage, which
caused the person to die later on. Dim mak has levels.

Its not so much cause and effect, as its stimulis and response. If
you strike a point to effect the qi flow, or strike to effect the
organ, the effect of the later "comes out" or surfaces, not
nessessarily due to effecting the body at the channel level. As such
is with the vibrating palm. Which can resonate a organ, channel or
point which then effects from the inside out maybe producing a
manifestation externally, which is what everyone see's but, doesnt
mean it was a channel level stimulation. There are a lot of
limitations on treatment at the channel level. Same thing with dit
da. On the surface level, nothings better than flying cockroaches for
blood stagnation. But for internal problems, any external medicine
wont go deep enough and internal medicine wont reach the surface. To
PRODUCE such destructive effects just on the channel level is
questionable without special training. I know about special pulse
reading training, and most people only do the "external" level.

ordo...@mail.hongkong.com

ordosclan

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Jun 7, 2004, 4:08:48 PM6/7/04
to
ruet...@outgun.com (Rue The Day) wrote in message news:<a44a8c58.04060...@posting.google.com>...

> The whole belief system is retarded. I've actually read some of this


> stuff for amusement at the local book store. This whole business

Its not a belief system. Its a work system. Get it straight. Belief
is what western man/christians think. Read a book on dim mak, you
know everything about dim mak. Thats like saying: "I read a book on
feng shui now, i can just believe the balances in enviornment and
relationships because I went through the motions of moving my eyes
back and forth over a piece of paper and formed various
verbalizatoins, rationalizations and judgements based on what I saw".

Chinese medicine was "transformed" by empiricism since a very very
long time ago. I cant recall exactly but Stephen chow did a movie of
a chinese doctor and he made reference to when chinese medicine was
influenced by empirical methods. Pulse reading, tongue diagnosis,
urine and scatology, all empirical. All observable and documented,
repeated over time, blah blah. Thats "scientific". You just dont
understand it.

The greatest achievements of western medicine are: Scalpel and
Hypodermic. A hypodermic is western acupuncture. You can image
acurpuncture meridians. They are there exactly where texts from the
bumfuck era said they were. You can image internal organs with
magnetic energy, positrons (at what cost to the patient, literally and
metaphorically?). All those testing equipment only work with the
system. A doctors eyes pop out if he things he can get a load of cash
from you if he can cut you open, remove something or implant
something. Other than that, throw a drug at the situation. Take a
pill, inject something.

I have never heard of a TCM doctor abandoning TCM for western
medicine. The opposite happens a lot however. In fact, the good ones
have both.

> about there being a bunch of bullshit energy meridians running through

> your body and that each one is assigned one of five elements and that


> there is a cycle of destruction (fire beats wood, water beats fire,
> etc.) and that if you strike the meridians in the order of that cycle
> that the person will fall unconscious or die or piss/shit themselves
> depending upon how you perform the strike is a bunch of incoherent
> babble. The entire ancient oriental view of how the human body and

Your comprehension is low. Dim mak theorys are dim mak theorys. You
have criticism of dim mak from TCM. If martial arts guys can do it,
its not that great. Look at the history these guys tell. Its
comical. Consider the source.

> the universe works is just plain wrong and it's downright silly that
> some people still believe it in this day and age.

Not as silly as rabbits that lay eggs, virgin marys, Manifest destiny,
a blonde haired jesus, lard and sugar sandwitches, miracle whip,
putting ice in yoru water, driving suv's, ect.

> I also find it funny that the EMT's found the students pulse, blood
> pressure, and skin conductivity all went up when they were "KOed".
> Those are stress reactions, not the reactions of an unconscious
> person. Those are also the same things measured in a lie detector
> test. The Dildo students all failed it.

Do we know what were talking about?

"By virtue of the Galvanic Skin Response, autonomic nervous system
activity causes a change in the skin's conductivity. The overall
degree of arousal of the hemispheres, and indeed the whole brain, is
shown by the readings of the GSR psychometer, which does not
differentiate between the hemispheres, or between cortical and
primitive brain responses. Higher arousal (such as occurs with
increased involvement) will almost instantaneously (0.2 - 0.5 sec)
cause a fall in skin resistance; reduced arousal (such as occurs with
withdrawal) will cause a rise in skin resistance."

http://www.trans4mind.com/psychotechnics/gsr.html

Thats just one reference.

Calcium ion channels come to mind. I think its interesting that the
testing mediums for "paranormal" abilitys always involve electic
shocks, electric current and or massive amounts of magnetic waves or
radiation. Which is all well documented to impair and engender
certain internal systems responsible for such paranormal abilitys.
Calcium ion migration for example.

The japanese acupuncture theorys inspired by manaka dont even use
puncturing of the skin. A little bit in the manaka ion pumping cords,
but its inconsequential. I wince when I hear about electoacupuncture
and magnet therapy. But the people they are treating and the people
doing the studys are not oriented to the modalitys which forbid/warn
against such practices. In short they arent worried about the side
effects on chi flow or polarity.

ordo...@mail.hongkong.com

ordosclan

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Jun 7, 2004, 4:16:14 PM6/7/04
to
Earl Camembert <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message news:<g4s4c0d7amo03vstf...@4ax.com>...
> On 5 Jun 2004 08:56:56 -0700, ruet...@outgun.com (Rue The Day)

> wrote:
>
> >The entire ancient oriental view of how the human body and
> >the universe works is just plain wrong and it's downright silly that
> >some people still believe it in this day and age.
>
> Yes and no. They can measure brain waves and electrical impulses in
> the human body. That is what a stun gun does, disrupts the electrical
> impulses that control the muscles.

USING electrical current. AMP and voltage and frequency is what
varys. The effects differ on time and place. The amount of juice to
get a stimulation with a estim not using a needle is a lot more. You
have a switch for example, 1x to 10x. Hi and lo. For the electrode
stim, which is two pen like tools with metal cups you fill with cotton
and wet with salt water, you have to switch to HI and X10 and usually
have to turn the knobs all the way up to max to get a mild stim. If
you did that with a needle you'd be jumping 6 feet in the air. There
are also different settings for wide dispertion, and you can have the
movement up a channel depending on placement. Those "poke them with a
metal prong" deals are pretty wack. I'm suprised you dont get an
electrical burn from a stun gun. Which is a liability issue. And so
they "tune" it down to prevent that. Its not that effective. For
various reasons.

However, its the reasons these currents in whatever voltate or wattage
are "bad" is a subject I currenly am working on. Not all will agree
with the propositions but it would help understand some mechanisms.
Calcium ion channels, meridian imaging, ect. None of these dipshits
that write about dim mak know jack about TCM anyways.

ordo...@mail.hongkong.com

Luca

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Jun 7, 2004, 4:44:29 PM6/7/04
to
ruet...@outgun.com (Rue The Day) wrote in message news:<a44a8c58.04060...@posting.google.com>...
> billma...@aol.com (BillMahoney68) wrote in message news:<20040604210545...@mb-m27.aol.com>...
> > It is in vogue to say "Pressure points arent that good for fighting, but THERE
> > IS something there"
> >
> > Which is incorrect.
> > There is NOTHING there.
> >
> > The whole deal is 100% shit.
> >
> > It would be counter to evolution if humans developed areas where we could be
> > hurt with light touches.
>
> The whole belief system is retarded. I've actually read some of this
> stuff for amusement at the local book store. This whole business
> about there being a bunch of bullshit energy meridians running through
> your body and that each one is assigned one of five elements and that
> there is a cycle of destruction (fire beats wood, water beats fire,
> etc.) and that if you strike the meridians in the order of that cycle
> that the person will fall unconscious or die or piss/shit themselves
> depending upon how you perform the strike is a bunch of incoherent
> babble. The entire ancient oriental view of how the human body and

> the universe works is just plain wrong and it's downright silly that
> some people still believe it in this day and age.

The concept of one element beating another, for example metal beating
wood, is more related to mechanics than energetics. This part of the
entire theory is very much real. It has more to do with one
directional force diffusing or deflecting another directional force,
much like slipping and weaving with a punch is more effective than
just standing there and taking it or guiding a punch past your face
and moving off-center is better than trying to stop the punch dead in
its tracks before it makes contact. Each element is represented by a
specific movement/body mechanic.

The idea of touching someone and making them mess themselves or
knocking them out by the same has not been proven as far as I know.
But a hard blow to specific points on the body can do things like
deaden a limb or disrupt the opponent for a short time, both of which
provide split moments that can allow you to take the advantage.
Anyone that claims they can knock you down without touching you is,
more than likely, full of it. Touching someone very hard is always
better in my book.

As far as the meridians and qi are concerned...my personal verdict is
still out...mechanics...kinetics...energetics?

bryan

Earl Camembert

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Jun 7, 2004, 5:56:57 PM6/7/04