Tiger Schulmann Karate warning

NUMCHUKA

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97

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State suit targets karate center pacts
Officials say the long-term Tiger Schulmann contracts violate the Health
Club Act.
By RON DEVLIN
Of The Morning Call
Jan. 3, 1997
--The state Bureau of Consumer Protection has sued six Tiger Schulmann's
Karate centers in eastern Pennsylvania, asking that the New Jersey-based
chain be ordered to refund thousands of dollars in client fees collected
in advance..Tiger Schulmann, where a year of lessons typically costs about
$1,300.At issue is whether a karate center is a health club and thus
covered by the state's Health Club Act.In its suit, the state alleges
Tiger Schulmann is requiring its clients to pay membership fees in
advance, often a year or more.It also alleges that Tiger Schulmann does
not maintain the required bond or letter of credit, has not registered
with the state Bureau of Consumer Protection, and is using contracts that
do not let clients know that they have the legal right to terminate and
have their advance fees refunded
.Deputy Attorney General John E. Kelly of Philadelphia, who developed the
suit, is asking Commonwealth Court to order Tiger Schulmann to notify
clients that they can void their contracts, to refund fees on a prorated
basis, and to pay civil penalties to the state.
Scott Levenson, Tiger Schulmann's corporate counsel, did not deny the
suit's allegations, but said it is without merit because Tiger Schulmann's
is not a health club.
It's a martial arts center, he said, and is not covered by Pennsylvania's
law."They're trying to use us as aguinea pig," Levenson said, "to extend
the [Health Club Act]to martial arts centers."
In a prepared statement, Tiger Schulmann said it is the largest and most
successful provider of martial arts instruction in the United States.
"Should it be decided that martial arts schools be included in the scope
of the Health Club
Act," the statement said, "we will readily comply."At issue in the suit
will be Tiger Schulmann's name, which the state says is "Tiger Schulmann's
Karate and Fitness Centers."The chain has changed its name, Levenson said,
to Tiger Schulmann's Karate Centers -- dropping the "Fitness." Tiger
Schulmann's ad in the Yellow Pages does not include "Fitness," but the
sign over the entrance to the Tilghman Square center says
"TigerSchulmann's Karate and Fitness center."Named as defendant is Daniel
"Tiger" Schulmann, a former undefeated North American Knockdown Karate
champion. The Tiger Schulmann method, a client said, involves an
introductory lesson at a nominal fee.
To continue, clients sign up for a year and pay in advance. Then, after
several months, clientsare encouraged to enter the black belt program and
pay in advance.Pyramided, after only a few months, a Tiger Schulmann
client could have paid $2,500 in advance of receiving the lessons.Levenson
said Tiger Schulmann has voluntarily agreed to comply with the Health Club
Act while insisting it is not bound by the law. He said the company is
seeking a bonding agent and already has complied with similar laws in New
York and Connecticut.
"The attorney general has refused to give us enough time," Levenson
charged
.Deputy Attorney General Kelly said Tiger Schulmann has had sufficient
time to comply with the Health Club Act and has not.
Steve Baer, owner of Baer Martial Arts Center in Trexlertown, felt that a
karate center is more educational than fitness-oriented. Yet, he said, it
is a business and should be regulated by consumer laws."There's nothing to
stop somebody from opening up one day," said Baer, a fourth-degree black
belt, "and running away with the money the next day."Baer said his clients
pay monthly fees. He does not require long-term contracts.

Melanie K.

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97

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Kudoki wrote:

> $1,300 for a one year Tiger Shulmann Karate school!!!!!! This is
> ludicrous, no martial arts school is worth that much. How can you
> justify this amount, I hope the teachers and instructors are good
> because you have to be a foul to pay this amount. Don't get me wrong,
> I'm sure (not really) the school is good, but to make their students
> pay in advance and at that amount.............. At my school, it cost
> only $295 a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the
> largest health club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395
> (Health club + martial arts training). This is a reasonable price.

I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.

Is that a lot?

Melanie

Richard J. Shepard

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97

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I pay $50 a month for unlimited classes, but it is a small school with a
3rd Dan as the head and only instructor.

Devlin
----------------------------------------
Richard J. Shepard (she...@okstate.edu)
Oklahoma State University -Economics/Law
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/3776

"Serenity comes from old knowledge.
Progress comes from new knowledge."

S L Peterson

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97

to

Melanie K. wrote:
>
> Kudoki wrote:
>
> > $1,300 for a one year Tiger Shulmann Karate school!!!!!! This is
> > ludicrous, no martial arts school is worth that much. How can you
> > justify this amount, I hope the teachers and instructors are good
> > because you have to be a foul to pay this amount. Don't get me wrong,
> > I'm sure (not really) the school is good, but to make their students
> > pay in advance and at that amount.............. At my school, it cost
> > only $295 a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the
> > largest health club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395
> > (Health club + martial arts training). This is a reasonable price.
>
> I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.
>
> Is that a lot?
>
> Melanie

I pay $60 a month (also unlimited classes). From what I've seen, $55
to $75 is typical in the American southwest.

Susan

Kudoki

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97

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<HTML><BODY>
NUMCHUKA wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>State suit targets karate center pacts
 Officials say the long-term Tiger Schulmann contracts violate the Health
 Club Act.
 By RON DEVLIN
  Of The Morning Call
 Jan. 3, 1997
  --The state Bureau of Consumer Protection has sued six Tiger Schulmann's
 Karate centers in eastern Pennsylvania, asking that the New Jersey-based
 chain be ordered to refund thousands of dollars in client fees collected
 in advance..Tiger Schulmann, where a year of lessons typically costs about
 $1,300.At issue is whether a karate center is a health club and thus
 covered by the state's Health Club Act.In its suit, the state alleges
 Tiger Schulmann is requiring its clients to pay membership fees in
 advance, often a year or more.It also alleges that Tiger Schulmann does
 not maintain the required bond or letter of credit, has not registered
 with the state Bureau of Consumer Protection, and is using contracts that
 do not let clients know that they have the legal right to terminate and
 have their advance fees refunded
 .Deputy Attorney General John E. Kelly of Philadelphia, who developed the
 suit, is asking Commonwealth Court to order Tiger Schulmann to notify
 clients that they can void their contracts, to refund fees on a prorated
 basis, and to pay civil penalties to the state.
 Scott Levenson, Tiger Schulmann's corporate counsel, did not deny the
 suit's allegations, but said it is without merit because Tiger Schulmann's
 is not a health club.
  It's a martial arts center, he said, and is not covered by Pennsylvania's
 law."They're trying to use us as aguinea pig," Levenson said,
"to extend
 the [Health Club Act]to martial arts centers."
 In a prepared statement, Tiger Schulmann said it is the largest and most
 successful provider of martial arts instruction in the United States.
 "Should it be decided that martial arts schools be included in the
scope
 of the Health Club
  Act," the statement said, "we will readily comply."At
issue in the suit
 will be Tiger Schulmann's name, which the state says is "Tiger Schulmann's
 Karate and Fitness Centers."The chain has changed its name, Levenson
said,
 to Tiger Schulmann's Karate Centers -- dropping the "Fitness."
Tiger
 Schulmann's ad in the Yellow Pages does not include "Fitness,"
but the
 sign over the entrance to the Tilghman Square center says
 "TigerSchulmann's Karate and Fitness center."Named as defendant
is Daniel
 "Tiger" Schulmann, a former undefeated North American Knockdown
Karate
 champion. The Tiger Schulmann method, a client said, involves an
 introductory lesson at a nominal fee.
 To continue, clients sign up for a year and pay in advance. Then, after
 several months, clientsare encouraged to enter the black belt program and
 pay in advance.Pyramided, after only a few months, a Tiger Schulmann
 client could have paid $2,500 in advance of receiving the lessons.Levenson
 said Tiger Schulmann has voluntarily agreed to comply with the Health Club
 Act while insisting it is not bound by the law. He said the company is
 seeking a  bonding agent and already has complied with similar laws
in New
 York and Connecticut.
 "The attorney general has refused to give us enough time," Levenson
 charged
 .Deputy Attorney General Kelly said Tiger Schulmann has had sufficient
 time to comply with the Health Club Act and has not.
 Steve Baer, owner of Baer Martial Arts Center in Trexlertown, felt that
a
 karate center is more educational than fitness-oriented. Yet, he said,
it
 is a business and should be regulated by consumer laws."There's nothing
to
 stop somebody from opening up one day," said Baer, a fourth-degree
black
 belt, "and running away with the money the next day."Baer said
his clients
 pay monthly fees. He does not require long-term contracts.
</BLOCKQUOTE>
 $1,300 for a one year Tiger Shulmann Karate school!!!!!!  This
is ludicrous, no martial arts school is worth that much.  How can

you justify this amount, I hope the teachers and instructors are good because

you have to be a foul to pay this amount.  Don't get me wrong, I'm

sure (not really) the school is good, but to make their students pay in
advance and at that amount.............. At my school, it cost only $295
a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the largest health
club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395 (Health club + martial

arts training).  This is a reasonable price.
 
 Kudoki
 <A HREF="http://www.odyssee.net/~ronnie/kudoki.htm">www.odyssee.net/~ronnie/kudoki.htm</A>

</BODY>
</HTML>

Bcimins

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Mar 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/18/97

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First Lesson is FREE!!

Rising Sun School of Combined Martial Science
Lyndhurst, NJ
201-438-0350

http://www.RiseSun.com

S Jamison

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Mar 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/18/97

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On Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:22:19 -0500, "Melanie K." <m...@webspan.net>
wrote:

>Kudoki wrote:
>
>> $1,300 for a one year Tiger Shulmann Karate school!!!!!! This is
>> ludicrous, no martial arts school is worth that much. How can you

>> justify this amount, I hope the teachers and instructors are good

>> because you have to be a foul to pay this amount. Don't get me wrong,

>> I'm sure (not really) the school is good, but to make their students
>> pay in advance and at that amount.............. At my school, it cost
>> only $295 a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the
>> largest health club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395

>> (Health club + martial arts training). This is a reasonable price.
>
>I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.
>
>Is that a lot?
>
>Melanie

Tiger Shulman has to pay $5,000 per spot for advertising on the Howard
Stern Show. Guess who's paying for that.
S. Jamison

Angie

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Mar 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/18/97

to

In article <332D8B...@odyssee.net>, Kudoki <ron...@odyssee.net> wrote:
.. At my school, it cost only $295
> a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the largest health
> club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395 (Health club + martial

> arts training); This is a reasonable price.

$45 a quarter (about 10 weeks). This gets me 3 practices a week at the
university, and additional visits to the "main dojo" that we are
affiliated with. I'm not sure what the cost is if you don't go through
the university, but I don't think it's much more.

Angie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
--From "Arsenic and Old Lace"

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Mar 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/18/97

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I pay $45 a month (or $120 for 3), plus a $25 yearly fee. I've seen other
schools in the area go for about $500 a year; that seems to be the going
rate, although its probably higher in major metro areas.
$1300?? Please.

Doctor Barley

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Mar 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/18/97

to m...@webspan.net

Melanie K. wrote:
>
> Kudoki wrote:
>
> > $1,300 for a one year Tiger Shulmann Karate school!!!!!! This is
> > ludicrous, no martial arts school is worth that much. How can you
> > justify this amount, I hope the teachers and instructors are good
> > because you have to be a foul to pay this amount. Don't get me wrong,
> > I'm sure (not really) the school is good, but to make their students

> > pay in advance and at that amount.............. At my school, it cost

> > only $295 a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the
> > largest health club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395

> > (Health club + martial arts training). This is a reasonable price.

>
> I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.
>
> Is that a lot?
>

> Melanie
I pay $60 and the instructor is a 6th dan. Prices vary from school to
school, I don't think $65 is too much but the real point is, do you feel
it is too much? If you have a money problem ask to speak to the
instructor in private, maybe you can work something out, i.e. helping to
teach, helping with the phone, cleaning, etc. If money isn't a problem,
great. Stick with your present school unless and until YOU feel it is
neccessary to go somewhere else.

Keep on kickin'
--
We are what we repeatedly do.
Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.

Aristotle

Man must sit in chair
with mouth open for
very long time
before roast duck fly in.

Chinese proverb

John C. Leylegian

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Mar 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/19/97

to

> Melanie K. wrote:
> >
> > Kudoki wrote:
> >
> > > $1,300 for a one year Tiger Shulmann Karate school!!!!!! This is
> > > ludicrous, no martial arts school is worth that much. How can you
> > > justify this amount, I hope the teachers and instructors are good
> > > because you have to be a foul to pay this amount. Don't get me wrong,
> > > I'm sure (not really) the school is good, but to make their students
> > > pay in advance and at that amount.............. At my school, it cost
> > > only $295 a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the
> > > largest health club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395
> > > (Health club + martial arts training). This is a reasonable price.
> >
> > I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.
> >
> > Is that a lot?

No, $65 is actually pretty good for unlimited classes, but you also have
to consider location (metro/rural area), type of school (college/YMCA vs.
commercial/storefront) and the level of instructor. My instructor (3rd
dan) charges $35/month for two classes per week in a social club, and
$70/semester in his college club...

John

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| John C. Leylegian |
| Princeton University MAE Combustion and Energy Laboratory |
| j...@Princeton.EDU http://www.princeton.edu/~jcl/ |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| "The brightest flame burns the quickest..." |
| Metallica, "Mama Said" |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

New Sage

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Mar 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/19/97

to

John C. Leylegian wrote:

>
> > Melanie K. wrote:
>
> > > I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.
> > >
> > > Is that a lot?
>

Way too much ! They should pay you for just being there and giving a
little class to their dojo !

New Sage

urd05j...@uno.edu

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Mar 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/19/97

to

1,300 IS crazy. with that money you can get this thing called a gun.
(I'm not saying that instead of a martial art, buy a gun, but at that price...?
I pay $80.00 for 3 .2 months or so...during the summer, I pay $60.00 for
a little less that 3 months. $220.00 per year.
--chris

Rajeev Venugopal

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Mar 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/19/97

to

University of Toronto Karate Club takes the cake!!!!
At the University of Toronto, we pay $90 for the entire calendar year!!!
That's three days a week (+/-8 hours formal instruction) 52 weeks a
year. Members can opt to pay by 4 month session at $35 per session.
Karate Ontario membership is something like $20/year extra. Every lesson
is personally led by Tominaga-sensei, a hachidan in Shotokan. In
addition, on one of those days there is an optional sparring class for
another hour or so. Talk about making karate accessible to everyone!
Raj

sen...@hotmail.com

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Mar 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/19/97

to

"Melanie K." <m...@webspan.net> wrote:

>Kudoki wrote:
>
>> $1,300 for a one year Tiger Shulmann Karate school!!!!!! This is
>> ludicrous, no martial arts school is worth that much. How can you
>> justify this amount, I hope the teachers and instructors are good
>> because you have to be a foul to pay this amount. Don't get me wrong,
>> I'm sure (not really) the school is good, but to make their students
>> pay in advance and at that amount.............. At my school, it cost
>> only $295 a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the
>> largest health club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395
>> (Health club + martial arts training). This is a reasonable price.
>

>I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.
>
>Is that a lot?
>

>Melanie

My Dojo:

$60.00 1 year
$65.00 6mos.
$70.00 3mos.

The average here is around the 70 a month range.

Mike

Brian Rogers

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Mar 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/19/97

to

New Sage (tim...@istar.ca) wrote:

: John C. Leylegian wrote:
: >
: > > Melanie K. wrote:

: >
: > > > I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.
: > > >
: > > > Is that a lot?
: >
: Way too much ! They should pay you for just being there and giving a

: little class to their dojo !

:

I think in many cases class prices are often a function of required
expenses for the facility, and whether it is the instructor's prime
source of income. A school that is run out of a health club will
have lower upkeep costs (such as heating) because the club is already
heating the place, although much of this expense is probably covered in
healthe club membership Personally, I help instruct an on-campus MA club.
We get no money from the university, but also have no fees as far as rent
or heat are concerned. I also hold another job, so don't need to rely on
it for my livelyhood, so we are easily able to keep club fees down to $45
per semester to cover a small instructor's compensation, and other
expenses (traveling, pizza, etc.).

My home dojo, OTOH, is an independent school run by a full-time sensei who
charges $65/month, and after heat and rent and upkeep costs, brings home a
salary of < $20,000/year. Not a hell of a lot to raise a child on.
The school is modest (no showers or other superfluous facilities), and the
temperature hovers at about 55-60 degrees in the winter. However, I
would much rather train under a person who has dedicated his/her life and
livelyhood to teaching MA, and spend a little more $ if I can afford it.
It's one of those cases where you often get what you pay for. MA
shouldn't necessarily be judged solely on cost (unless, of course, the
full-time instructor is driving around in a Porche, but that is probably
reflected in his/her teaching anyway). Just my 2 cents worth of
experience.

--
Brian Rogers | "Tung-Tung weeps,
bro...@netspace.org | For he has but one small tongue
http://www.netspace.org/~brogers | To taste an entire world." Mung-Mung

Melanie K.

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Mar 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/19/97

to

Brian Rogers wrote:
> I think in many cases class prices are often a function of required
> expenses for the facility, and whether it is the instructor's prime
> source of income.

Yes, my instructor (7th Dan, RyuKyu Kempo) rents out two store fronts on
Long Island, where rent is extremely high.

> My home dojo, OTOH, is an independent school run by a full-time sensei who
> charges $65/month, and after heat and rent and upkeep costs, brings home a
> salary of < $20,000/year. Not a hell of a lot to raise a child on.

I'm not quite sure how much Kyoshi earns, but he does "earn" it, that's
for sure. He puts in an average of 12 hours a day at his dojo (5 days a
week) since it is a full-time school. He works hard.

He teaches, on average, about 2/3 of the classes, which is good for me
as a beginning student.

> The school is modest (no showers or other superfluous facilities), and the
> temperature hovers at about 55-60 degrees in the winter.

Brrrrr! I know what that's like!

However, I
> would much rather train under a person who has dedicated his/her life and
> livelyhood to teaching MA, and spend a little more $ if I can afford it.

Hear, hear. I wasn't complaining about my $65/month payment (I can go
to about 12 hours a week worth of classes), I was just curious if others
thought that it was a lot.

Melanie

Angie

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Mar 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/19/97

to

In article <332F86...@utoronto.ca>, Rajeev Venugopal
<raj.ve...@utoronto.ca> wrote:

Northwestern University's karate club isn't far behind you! $45 per
quarter (about 2 and a half months). Summers are a little bit less. We
get three classes per week at the university (about 6-8 hours), plus we
have access to the JKA dojo downtown, which is run by Sugiyama-sensei.
There are classes down town 6 days a week, so you can go when you have the
time.

This is much better than the $100 per month I started with when I moved to
Chicago!

Frank Ishizaki

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Mar 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/19/97

to

Like the old saying goes, you get what you pay for...

Granted, some schools out there are ripping people off by charging a
lot and giving a little, I feel my school and similar schools
(Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, the highest cost in MA training) are worth the
amount. We are being trained by some of the greatest living fighters
on the planet. Period. I don't do it for the art. I do it because it
works.

If you were on trial for murder and your life depended on the outcome,
would you want to be represented by a cheap attorney? Hell no! If you
had the money you would pay for Robert Shapiro!

This is how I feel about martial arts. My life may depend on my
training some day. I want the best. The best also costs A LOT. Like I
said before, you get what you pay for.

I may not be crazy about paying three times what other MA'ists pay,
but IMHO the training I receive is much more fun and much more
effective than in other styles. My intention is not to put down other
styles, but to state what personally works for me.

Sgvette

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Mar 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/20/97

to

College/university affiliated schools are typically the least expensive.
Unfortunately, most low-price deals end when you are no longer a student.

Chi K. Chan

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Mar 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/20/97

to

"Richard J. Shepard" <she...@okstate.edu> wrote:

>Melanie K. wrote:
>>
>> Kudoki wrote:
>>
>> > $1,300 for a one year Tiger Shulmann Karate school!!!!!! This is
>> > ludicrous, no martial arts school is worth that much. How can you
>> > justify this amount, I hope the teachers and instructors are good
>> > because you have to be a foul to pay this amount. Don't get me wrong,
>> > I'm sure (not really) the school is good, but to make their students
>> > pay in advance and at that amount.............. At my school, it cost
>> > only $295 a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the
>> > largest health club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395
>> > (Health club + martial arts training). This is a reasonable price.
>>

>> I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.
>>
>> Is that a lot?
>>

>> Melanie
>
>I pay $50 a month for unlimited classes, but it is a small school with a
>3rd Dan as the head and only instructor.
>
>Devlin
>----------------------------------------
>Richard J. Shepard (she...@okstate.edu)
>Oklahoma State University -Economics/Law
>http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/3776
>
> "Serenity comes from old knowledge.
> Progress comes from new knowledge."

I pay $245 for 3 months (in NYC where rent is really high).
The instructor is 8th Dan, the North Atlantic Head Instructor of JKA.

$1300 is way too much, plus the guy made up his own style from bunch
of other styles, there is no history or spiritual side behind his
stuff (IMHO that is)...

Chi

Brad Webb

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Mar 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/20/97

to

Oh, it is to hang my head :).

I have to admit that JKA at UT Dallas charges the outrageous
fee of $15 a month for 3 classes a week. This also includes
the possiblity of two other classes a week at affiliated
dojos. So you can train up to 5 days a week(11 hours) if you want.

The only drawback being you need to be a student/staff/faculty or
related to one in some way.

Oh the shame. :)

Good Luck,
Brad.

--
Brad Webb, HEY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS -->> bwe...@airmail.net
or reply to:erw...@rwasic33.aud.alcatel.com (wrchh187 bounces)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Japan Shotokan Karate, Dallas,TX. Nortel, Inc. (214)684-1737
(214) 231-4922 Me represent NT? I think not.
Seek perfection of character. Don't make them laugh so hard.

Tuff Guy Eddie

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Mar 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/20/97

to

On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Melanie K. wrote:

> Kudoki wrote:
>
> > $1,300 for a one year Tiger Shulmann Karate school!!!!!! This is
> > ludicrous, no martial arts school is worth that much. How can you
> > justify this amount, I hope the teachers and instructors are good
> > because you have to be a foul to pay this amount. Don't get me wrong,
> > I'm sure (not really) the school is good, but to make their students
> > pay in advance and at that amount.............. At my school, it cost
> > only $295 a year and if you want to join the health club (It's the
> > largest health club in the area) all it costs you is a total of $395
> > (Health club + martial arts training). This is a reasonable price.
>
> I pay $65 a month for unlimited classes.
>
> Is that a lot?
>
> Melanie
>
>

I am in England and have studied many styles of martial art and have payed
between 1 and 3 English pounds for an hours
lesson.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
, ,
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EEEEEEEE DDD 'DDDD, \ \___ / |
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EEE E DDD 'DDDD / / | ` \
EEEEEEE DDD 'DDD O O ) / |
EEEEEEE DDD DDD `-^--'`< '
EEE E DDD ,DDD (_.) _ ) /
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EEE E DDD ,DDDD' <----. __ / __ \
EEEEEEEE DDD ,DDDD' <----|====O)))==) \) /====
EEEEEEEEE DDDDDDD' <----' `--' `.__,' \
| |
\ /
______( (_ / \_____
,' ,-----' | \
`--{__________) \/

GO AND SEE MY HOMEPAGE OR I'LL KICK YOUR ARSE
http://207.226.241.14/co/RUNNINGWOLF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rajeev Venugopal

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do...so...Explore. Dream. =

Discover."
=
=

- Mark Twain

Mike Krantz

unread,

Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

Frank Ishizaki wrote:
>
> Mike Krantz wrote:
>
> > In my (admittedly limited) experience, the best instructors are
> > relatively inexpensive.
> >

> > I think this may be applicable within arts

> > Between arts, supply and demand may make a big difference.

> > I don't know anything about BJJ.
> >

> I see where you're coming from, but respectfully disagree.
>

[snip stuff about why BJJ is best, even if it costs a lot.]

I see what you wrote, but respectfully think you
did not understand my point.

Within an art (or style), most instructors cannot successfully
combine commercial promotion with good teaching. They must make
there best efforts in one direction. Also, a good instructor
often looks for good students, not good customers, and good
students can't or won't always pay the big bucks.

Different arts may make different markets. I specifically
pointed out BJJ as a market I know nothing about, because I
_do_ know that it tends to be expensive and did not want to
appear to say the art or instruction in the art (same thing)
is inferior just because of the cost. And in a high-priced
market with few sources, I suppose any instructor can charge
a lot more than some others in the same art without it
affecting their quality. This is because students (buyers)
in that market will hear about a good instructor and pay
the cost.

However, if a karate instructor or a BJJ instructor does a lot
of advertizing, has a big retail storefront, sells a lot of
gimicks, charges a lot for tests, tests students often, and
passes them for time at dojo

then

the karate instructor probably does not teach the kind of
karate he teaches as well as someone else who spends all his
time teaching class, dojo is not great retail location, tells
his students not to test until their karate is good enough,
fails them if they don't pass a set standard, etc

and

the BJJ instructor probably does not teach as good BJJ
as one who spends all his time pushing his students, etc.

In karate as far as I know, the commercial instructor probably
has more students and charges each a higher price, where the
less commercial instructor probably has lower prices, no
contracts, and better trained students.

I already said I don't know anything about BJJ. But from
what I've heard I suspect a BJJ instructor who spends all
his time advertizing and promoting his dojo to get students
will probably also have more (clueless) students and make
more money, while one who spends his time improving his
BJJ and pushing his students will do better BJJ and
train more capable students.

I agree with you that this should hold regardless of the
emphasis of the teaching. I think whether the instructor
emphasizes kata, basic techniques, tournament sparring,
or successfull street fighting, paying the big bucks is
not what gets you good training.

I see your point that high cost does not mean bad training.

But when I am in a new city, looking for karate, I don't
ask "how much?" I ask what they teach and listen to what
they say about their dojo. Then maybe I watch a class.
If I like what I see, I if I may train and how to pay.

You probably also look for the kind of training you want,
then ask about cost.

Are we on the same page, Mr. Ishizaki?

Regards,

Mike Krantz

Rajeev Venugopal

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

to

Frank Ishizaki wrote:
>
> Mike Krantz wrote:
>
> > In my (admittedly limited) experience, the best instructors are
> > relatively

> > inexpensive. Expensive dojos are often very commercial and geared to
> > sell
> > martial arts to folks that don't know anything about them, don't think
> > clearly enough (don't have enough life experience) to recognize quality
> > on their own, and for the most part never will do either of these.
> >
> > My experience is with Shotokan karate. I think this may be applicable
> > within arts or groups of arts (such as traditional Japanese and Korean

> > martial arts). Between arts, supply and demand may make a big
> > difference.

> > If an art is fairly new and popular even among martial artists (as
> > opposed

> > to fans), then perhaps both good and bad instructors charge a lot? I

> > don't
> > know anything about BJJ.
> >

> > Anyway, if you are asked to pay big bucks, especially under contract,
> > shop around before you sign up. But shop for quality, not for price.
>

> I see where you're coming from, but respectfully disagree.
>

> I pay big bucks because I train under world champion Brazilian Jiu
> Jitsu stylists whose abilities and system have been tested in actual
> combat. Sure, I could go to the local TKD or Karate studio and spend
> 1/3 less, but who would be training me? Someone who got his black belt
> from someone who got his black belt from someone else who may or may
> not be able to back up their system on the street.
>
> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the real deal. I don't want to start a flame
> re: whose art is the best, but I know I'm getting my money's worth
> because the stuff I'm learning has been documented to be superior to
> other stuff in actual combat. And my instructors are world champions.
> I'm not training for the "art" or because the forms look good. I want
> to be able to destroy my opponent if, God forbid, I am attacked in a
> street altercation.
>
> Peace.

If the instructor is good, and the training is honest, the most you pay
is from your own efforts, dedication, hard work and perseverence. The
dollars will be peripheral. If the value for dollar is inside, paying
for lessons whatever the cost will be an honour and a privilege. Paying
for lessons will be as important as groceries, mortgage, heat.... It
will become a necessity. North Americans first ask the price as a result
of our commercialized culture, elsewhere the credentials of the
instructor is the key. As someone on this thread mentioned, if you think
you're paying too much.....then you are.
Raj

GWalker101

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Apr 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/15/97

to

I found a school in my area that teaches a combination of tae kwon do and
self defense. The self defence is a combo of tae kwon do/shotokan strikes
and LOW kicks (to keep your legs from being kicked out from under you),
aiki jujitsu, and kenpo. You have to learn some of both to advance. The
self defence instructor (Oscar Thrower) has been a trhee-time world
champion in the ring, and his teaching is brtual and very effective.

This place costs about half of the other martial arts schools in my area,
and the teaching is top-notch.

-Glenn

Philip H. J. Davies

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Apr 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/15/97

to GWalker101

I don't charge my students anything.

they suffer enough without having to pay money for it as well :^>

_____________________________________________________________________________
PHJD
(spies) www.rdg.ac.uk/SecInt/
(martial Arts) www.rdg.ac.uk/AcaDepts/lw/kt/home.htm
(sociology) www.rdg.ac.uk/AcaDepts/lw/home.html
(journal) www.rdg.ac.uk/AcaDepts/lw/Reviewing_Sociology/home.htm
_____________________________________________________________________________

Rodrigo

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Apr 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/15/97

to Philip H. J. Davies

I wold like to know if $35 is too much for two hours training, twice a
week for Hapkido.
Best regards

AVMONTHLY

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97

to

I currently pay out $48 a month for two one hour lessons a week. Our
school is well established and well respected in our area. I believe my
instructor xould charge more but I'm not going to tell him that!

Scot Thiesson

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97

to

Our club is a non-profit Shorin-ryu club run out of a school gym.
We pay $10.00/month for tuesday thursday and saturday classes for
a total time of 9hours/week. Of course nobody gets paid anything
except for the local community assoc. (for rent).
We also pay no affiliation or political kickbacks.
Regards Scot.

A2sai

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Apr 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/23/97

to

You are a fool and are being taken for granted. By not charging anything,
it's obviously not worth anything! I started my school like that. No
matter what I did I couldn't get more than 20 students. Then I realized,
if it's free it's not worth anything.
Hey, even Mr. Miagi made the karate kid "wax on & wax off!