Gracie vs. Machado Jiu-jitsu

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an39...@anon.penet.fi

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Sep 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/23/95
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Has anyone trained under both Gracie and Machado Jiu-jitsu? From what I
hear from people who have, the Gracies are less willing to share a lot of
techniques, especially the more effective and dangerous ones. I can
understand this having been in Relson's class. He really stresses safety
and won't teach ankle locks to beginners and in the [admittedly few]
classes I attended he didn't allow ankle locks in the free practice. But
does anyone feel that another part of the reason is that they want to keep
some techniques secret? For example, the Machados showed a technique that
if the peole that fought Royce or Oleg knew, I'm sure the fight would have
been over very quickly. There are many weaknesses in the guard position,
but this one would really put the guy in the guard at a severe
disadvantage. It was an amazingly simple and dangerous technique, and
when I had it done to me by someone that just learned it, there was no way
I could escape and had to tap. No, it was not an ankle lock, and it would
definitely be illegal in judo. I think part of the reason is that they're
afraid if they shared everything, there would be a greater number of
people that would be able to defeat them.

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Tim

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Sep 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/23/95
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an39...@anon.penet.fi wrote:

: Has anyone trained under both Gracie and Machado Jiu-jitsu? From what I


: hear from people who have, the Gracies are less willing to share a lot of
: techniques, especially the more effective and dangerous ones. I can
: understand this having been in Relson's class. He really stresses safety
: and won't teach ankle locks to beginners and in the [admittedly few]
: classes I attended he didn't allow ankle locks in the free practice. But
: does anyone feel that another part of the reason is that they want to keep
: some techniques secret?

No. Perhaps the Machados may teach them at a sooner level, but I don't
think the Gracies purposely hide certain techniques. Watch their fights
(UFCs, Vale Tudos, In Action, Gracie/Kukok tapes) and you'll see that
they use the same moves they teach. I know that certain techniques (such
as knee locks) aren't taught at the early levels and not allowed in free
sparing because of the potential for severe damage they can cause.

Lates!
----------------------------------
Tim <body...@netcom.com>
"Finger" for PGP v2.6.2 Public Key

JoeyBW

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Sep 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/23/95
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I believe the Gracies DO intentionally hide techniques from their
students. That's why Craig Kukuk (11 year student, GJJ blackbelt) was
beaten by a machado 3 year student. The machado tapped him out 4 out of 4
times fairly quickly. Also why the Machados recently took 1st place in
the World Jiu Jitsu championship. They beat both the Gracie team and the
Brazilian team.


Joe...@aol.com

"When in doubt, choke 'em out!!"

Al de Orleans

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Sep 24, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/24/95
to an39...@anon.penet.fi
The Machados do teach ankle locks, in controlled in vornments. They do
this because they want people to be aware of what is being aplied to
them, and tap out bbefore injury is caused. They also teach the escapes
so you can get out of it. The one thing they emphasize is that they
don't want you doing it during free sparing, because the injuries are
very severe, and sometimes ireversible. They pretty much teach you
anything you want, unless they feel you are not up to it. They don't
want you hurting anyone.
The reason the Gracies are "less willing" is because they want you to
learn the foundation first. With a strong foundation, everything else
follows up better.
Both ways are just as effective, and has nothing to do with them getting
beat. Rickson practices with his students, and he always has a new bag
of tricks. The same goes with the Machados. The more you pactice with
them, the more you see that it would take an eternity to come to their
level. While most people have a couple of moves for a certain situation,
these guys have dozens. You can never forget that they started doing
this as soon as they could walk, an every day they inventing new moves.
Rickson will tell you what he is going to do you. You can try to counter
it, but because he knows all these variations, he will still get you
without breaking a sweat. One of the Machados will grapple with every
student, of all levels, with no pause in between, and just start getting
tired on the last students. Some of these guys are much bigger and
stronger, and some are even purple and brown belts that are bigger and
stronger.
Both the Gracies and the Machados have such a high level of experience,
that is always evolving. They are alwys teaching masters of other arts,
and also absorbing from their techniques. Believe me they are not
worried about you learning too much, and beating you. They have many
years of experince on you, and as long as you are learning, so are they.

rsa...@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

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Sep 26, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/26/95
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JoeyBW (joe...@aol.com) wrote:

: times fairly quickly. Also why the Machados recently took 1st place in


: the World Jiu Jitsu championship. They beat both the Gracie team and the
: Brazilian team.

Really!?! Man, I wish I lived in California... :)

__________________________________________________________________________

Robin Sarac, CET -- aka "spot" email: rsa...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

jujutsu / aikido / music / computers / philosophy / irc
__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________


jon cleveland

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Sep 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/28/95
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martinf (mar...@mills.edu) wrote:
: The Machados did win the tournament...[-snip-]

So the Machado's do compete in tournaments. Now I have a question...Do they
compete in the same style ("no rules") tournaments as the Gracie's? If yes,
do they avoid the one's in which a Gracie is competing (or vice versa). If
no, why not? Anyone know?

Jon.
--
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| See all of it. Close your eyes to nothing. For the battle |
| is fought to be won. And it is this that happens if you lose." |
| -Jean de Rye, Knight of Burgundy |
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Esther Wilkinson a hare

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Sep 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/28/95
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As far as the Machado's winning the tournament, if you are talking about
the one in LA with the Brazilian team, the Gracie schools from LA did not
compete.

Anthony


Al de Orleans

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Sep 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/28/95
to jcle...@ub.d.umn.edu
The Machados do not compete in "no rules" tournaments. They compete in
non striking tournaments. Their goal is to promote the sport side of
BJJ. They organize tournaments such as the World BJJ tournament, and
other local ones. As a matter of fact they plan to do one before
Christmas. I will post it once I get the exact info. The Gracies don't
compete in these tournaments, because they don't consider it real
enough.

Sunflower

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Sep 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/30/95
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In article <44fcgk$h...@nnrp3.news.primenet.com> Al de Orleans <rac...@primenet.com> writes:

: The Machados do not compete in "no rules" tournaments. They compete in

Actually, Rorion pulled out of the Pan American BJJ tournament
because he didn't want the patented name GJJ be used to promote
the event. When you have a couple of Brazilian national teams
competing, it doesn't get anymore real than that!

- Brian


Joshua Thaler

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Sep 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/30/95
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JoeyBW (joe...@aol.com) wrote:
: I believe the Gracies DO intentionally hide techniques from their

: students. That's why Craig Kukuk (11 year student, GJJ blackbelt) was
: beaten by a machado 3 year student. The machado tapped him out 4 out of 4
: times fairly quickly. Also why the Machados recently took 1st place in
: the World Jiu Jitsu championship. They beat both the Gracie team and the
: Brazilian team.

1. The Gracie team was not represented. 2. The Machados had a lot of
ringers from Brazil representing their school. 3. Craig Kukuk might have
a blck belt, but that doesn't preclude someone with tremendous talent and
physical ability from beating him. Also consider that though he might
have only been training with the Machados for three years, his background
in other grappling arts (ie. Judo and Wrestling) might well be much more
extensive than Mr. Kukuk's. The Machados are very good. Many say that
they are better than most Gracies (Rickson is another case however). This
doesn't mean that they know more or have secret techniques; they might
just have better timing and balance. Remember that the Machados and the
Gracies have trained together for years. If the Machados have such
secret techniques which you talk about, then THEY would be the ones guilty
of with holding information.

JoeyBW

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Sep 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/30/95
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I didn't say the machados have secret techniques, i just said the Gracies
have been accused of teaching either a false technique or an uncomplete
technique so they will never be beaten by a student. That same thing
happened to Helio. Watch the GJJ Basics tapes and see how they say to
pass the guard. A perfect set up for the figure 4 choke. Also why do you
think the machados stopped teaching at the Gracie academy? Because Rorion
wanted them to teach these false techniques. Rickson left because of the
same reason. Rickson now has a law suit pending against Rorion because he
is ruining the Gracie name by teaching false techniques. Craig Kukuk left
the Gracie academy after being choked out several times by a machado 3
year student. Craig had 11 years experience, explain that. It's also
quite funny that Rorion won't enter any of these BJJ tournaments.
Obviously he knows his team would be slaughtered by all the other BJJ
teams who were taught the CORRECT way. I understand many GJJ students
will flame me for saying this. This is just what i've heard and read. In
my opinion these claims are true.

ro...@solar.sky.net

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Sep 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/30/95
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: Actually, Rorion pulled out of the Pan American BJJ tournament

: because he didn't want the patented name GJJ be used to promote
: the event. When you have a couple of Brazilian national teams
: competing, it doesn't get anymore real than that!
: - Brian


I wish Rorion wasnt as much of a money-hog.
He's soo worried about trying to make a buck, he's hurting his family
image. In my opinion...

Imagine if there was some dude trying to make a dollar everytime someone
used the word "Karate".
Eventually people will avoid it.
Soon Gracie Jiu-Jitsu will be referred to as "brazillian jj" just to
avoid hassles with Rorion. And thats like working against the advancement
of "Gracie jiu jitsu".

ro...@sky.net


Brandon Kiely

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Oct 1, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/1/95
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>I wish Rorion wasnt as much of a money-hog.
>He's soo worried about trying to make a buck, he's hurting his family
>image. In my opinion...


I have been practicing GJJ for a little while now, and I can go to a blue
belt in Columbus, Ohio to get my technique down pat. Up until now, the
blue belt (actually there are 2 blue belts) charged $10 as a mat fee. Now
that he is a 'Registered' GJJ trainer, I have to pay $60/yr, one time $30
GJJ registration, and $15/workout to a max of $45/month. These prices are
forced - not by the blue belt's choice.

Sorry, but the academy is not going to get students this way.

Brandon

Tony

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Oct 1, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/1/95
to joe...@aol.com
I heard the same thing about Rorian. I know for a fact that many of the family
members are very angry with him. He sounds like a very devious and greedy guy. I
heard he screwed over many people including his own family members. Rickson, his
own brother, dislikes what Rorian stands for and what he is doing to the family.
I'm really glad that I didn't end up in his academy.


Michael Dash

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Oct 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/2/95
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In article <DFsHH...@news.uwindsor.ca>, bra...@uwindsor.ca says...

Who are you referring to? I know a guy named Greg Eldred that I used to
train with that moved to Ohio. I was wondering if it was the same guy.

--
Michael Dash
das...@earthlink.net
********************************************************************
*The above opinions and statements are mine and are not necessarily*
*those of any other individual or organization. *
********************************************************************


BRANDON RIO

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Oct 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/2/95
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The best schools for BJJ in the Southern California area are Machado
Jiu-Jitsu located in Redondo Beach and Pedro Carvalho Jiu-Jitsu located in
Rancho Cucamonga.

* This Message was routed from MA Temple *
* BBS for USA Chinese Shao-lin Centers *
* For more information send a message to: in...@martialnet.com *

Brandon Kiely

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Oct 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/3/95
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>>
>>I have been practicing GJJ for a little while now, and I can go to a blue
>>belt in Columbus, Ohio to get my technique down pat. Up until now, the
>>blue belt (actually there are 2 blue belts) charged $10 as a mat fee. Now
>>that he is a 'Registered' GJJ trainer, I have to pay $60/yr, one time $30
>>GJJ registration, and $15/workout to a max of $45/month. These prices are
>>forced - not by the blue belt's choice.
>>
>>Sorry, but the academy is not going to get students this way.
>>
>>Brandon
>
>Who are you referring to? I know a guy named Greg Eldred that I used to
>train with that moved to Ohio. I was wondering if it was the same guy.
>
>--
>Michael Dash
>das...@earthlink.net


I am not familiar with Greg Eldred. I train with Jeff Hudson and another
blue belt who's first name is Vince... I am aware of a couple of blue
belts (maybe even higher???) in Cleveland that are really gung-ho for the
stuff, but I've never met them. I'll find out this week when I go to class.

Brandon

Joe T.

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Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
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JoeyBW (joe...@aol.com) wrote:
> same reason. Rickson now has a law suit pending against Rorion because he
> is ruining the Gracie name by teaching false techniques. Craig Kukuk left

Is this true? Where did you get this information?? I'
m just curious.

-jtm


JoeyBW

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Oct 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/5/95
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>Is this true? Where did you get this information?? I'
m just curious.

-jtm<

A student of Rickson's told this to my JJ teacher, who in turn told me.

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