serak jurus
tim
some things by you.
firstly, jurus. i was recently shown the first 5 jurus briefly, and i've
been playing around trying to come up with buah, and i was hoping you all
could help me. on the first juru (punch with left hand resting over the
right arm, roll up into a downward backfist with the left hand under the
right arm, back to a punch) i've come up with a few things, so if you
could tell me if i'm off-base or give some suggestions, i'd appreciate
it. the first thing i came up with was in response to a right punch,
left hand parries, right punch/palm/whatever low (low split entry).
after that, i'm not sure. another one (although this is more of a kali
flavor) would be a high split entry, gunting to backfist, and i'm not
sure about the last part. the only one that i could come up with all the
movements would be in response to a left punch: a left inside parry,
right hand hitting or checking the right hand or going for his knife,
moving in for a kinjit siku (spelling? the elbow compression-throw), and
finishing the kinjit.
also, i can't seem to figure out the purpose of anything in juru 4 (punch
with cover, right hand rotating at the elbow, circling inward and up to a
verticle position, slapping the left hand, slapping the right hand,
slapping the chest twice, and a punch).
i hope i got these descriptions right, any insight you can give is
appreciated.
tim
tim
: Your Serak djurus are really different from mine- no matter, the
: material is all the same.
that's odd. also, i remember doing a serak juru eariler (different
instructor) and it had th torquing you describe.
<snip>
: Do the djurus until the movement 'forma' is comfortable to you- comes
: pretty quickly. Then do the djuru against a compliant opponent- see
: where you end up contacting him- derive your buah from there.
thanks, i'll work on it more. your advice is appreciated. :)
tim
tim
: Why not ask the one that is teaching you.
<sarcasm on>
gee, i never thought of that. thanks, pal.
<sarcasm off>
firstly, because i learned them at a seminar, and i didn't have time nor
inclination to ask the instructor - i was too busy trying to remember
them.
secondly, the closest thing i have to a regular teacher is over a hundred
miles away, and due to school and family i only get to train with him
once a month at best, so i spend that class time on whatever he wants,
and the private lesson time on things that i enjoy more than serak.
i asked this question cause i have quite a bit of time to practice on my
own while i'm outside with the kids, and i was playing with the serak
jurus for some variety. i thought i'd ask to get a few insights or
nudges in the right direction, not obvious smart-assed answers.
tim
Chas
> i know there are a few serak players around here, so i thought i'd run
> some things by you.
Your Serak djurus are really different from mine- no matter, the
material is all the same.
Don't look for technical applications in the djurus until you break them
into very small pieces- then it still matters where the action
intercepts the opponents body. If you come in from the left, it will do
one thing, if you come in from the right, it will do another.
Remember that every forward motion can be a punch or a push or a
pre-positioning of the arm- every retraction can be a pull or a grasp or
a push on the limb to stabilize or whatever.
The choreography is a system of movement that **may** be useful in
combat. It is not the practice of certain rote techniques, it is the
practice of moving through zones of attack and defense by certain means.
In my first Serak djuru; the djuru of 'total destruction'- it begins
with a centerline breaker of the attack, torques to the right, back to
the left, wipes and punch, wipes and punch. That's the whole djuru. It
has 10,000 techniques in it depending on the incidence to the opponent
and what you want to do with it. If you tried to 'force' a fight into
the construct of the djuru, you'd get hurt if the choreography changed.
Do the djurus until the movement 'forma' is comfortable to you- comes
pretty quickly. Then do the djuru against a compliant opponent- see
where you end up contacting him- derive your buah from there.
Chas
Doesenburg
Steve Perry
Tim --
From your description, it doesn't sound as if you learned the same Serak
djurus I'm learning, either, though I will second what Chas said -- the
djurus aren't meant to be used per se, they are more for you to learn
patterns of movement, and any given piece can be made to serve high, low,
inside, outside, etc., depending on a whole lot of factors that are a lot
more difficult to describe than to show. A block could be a trap or a pull,
and vice-versa.
No help, I know, but that' s kinda the nature of the beast. Show definitely
works better than tell.
Interesting that you were able to get so many djurus in a seminar setting.
From my own practice, we spend months learning and practicing one, just to
learn various possible applications, and even then, we hardly scratch the
surface. Every time we get a new student, we go back to Djuru #1, and I
learn new stuff every time . . .
Steve
Chas
> Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> : Your Serak djurus are really different from mine- no matter, the
> : material is all the same.
>
> instructor) and it had th torquing you describe.
Sorry- the description you made didn't sound the same to me; a matter of
my comprehension no doubt.
(the following is my own opinion and interpretation- others would have
well founded exceptions to my positions)
As Pak Serak was a one-armed and clubbed footed man, the djurus from Mas
Djoet train the right hand side of the body, the left hand side of the
body and the two sides of the body simultaneously. There is a complete
set of applications out of each of those positions.
One should practice the djurus in all sorts of variations. I tell my
practitioners to practice them; big, little, wide, narrow, forceful,
with finesse, reverse the energy from 'push' to 'pull', or from 'up' to
'down', or 'in' to 'out'. Study the inner circle (range of motion or
breathing or neck position, etc.), or the balance, or the involvement of
the 'whole body'- in the breaker; go from the wrist to the elbow to the
shoulder, broaden the movement or work it close and tight. Do the 'punch
and wipe' in the full formal (with grabs, guards, twists, etc.
'indicated'), do it in the 'masters' punch', do it as the 'three-pop'
from the battle djurus, etc. Don't move much (as stepping) until you
have a good understanding of the first couple of djurus- all of the hand
patterns can be linked to all of the stepping patterns; they are learned
separately so that you don't form inefficient patterns.
When you care to; start the djurus that begin with #1 with #2. Study the
wipe transition from #3 and #4 and then reverse them. Study them with #6
as a set and then combine them into #8 with repetitions and variations.
Look at the congruence between #1 and #7, now start all of your djurus
with #7 (old style 7, not the squat)- speaking of 'old style', do all
your djurus with old #2 instead of either #1 or 'new' #2.
Break the djurus down into shorter drills; opening movement to sembah
and twohand punch; torquing elbow from #1 into palm/forearm smash and
chamber; punch and wipe is always good- that's why they put it on
everything. If it wasn't necessary to do a lot of punching and wiping,
it wouldn't be out front like that. All of the technical applications
are what the fistfight is about.
As much as 60 or 70% of the technical essence of Serak is contained in
the first 10 djurus- all of them begin with either #1 or #2- the best
stuff is in the first two djurus- if you can understand them, you are
good to go for about 90% of the technical application that you will run
up against.
Combine the djurus with three langkas; Pak Serak's step, sliwa and tiga,
and you have a hell of a fighting forma- the broader langkas are for
kendang fighting and multiple attackers (sort of). If you add Willems'
turning, circling, reversals and leaping, off of the langka points of
sliwa and tiga (especially), a whole *new* set of applications emerge.
The expression of power inherent in converting the circle to a line is
very strong.
This information will give you a lot of 'self teaching' aids. Serak will
teach much of itself just in the immersion into the djurus/langkas. You
can't hardly do them all *that* wrong- if they feel bad, you're not
doing it right. There should be total body alignment for strength and
solidity, the musculature is relaxed and fluid- the hits come from the
bony structure; ends of big bones, large bones against the meat or small
bones, using the incompressibility of a bone-
I cannot overemphasize the need to relax- find the tensions in your
posture and relieve them. You are going to be as tense as you'll ever be
in the midst of your fight, there is no need to train it in. It is
better that you train to command the (sorta) 'adrenaline response' (the
Lizard) by low impact high repetition switching and visualization.
You will not have to learn another choreography in order to study more
deeply- the choreography will allow you to practice any skill that you
want. Do not abuse your body- that's what your opponent is for. Anytime
you hurt yourself, you're doing his job for him.
I have found much of my good buah by leaping into someone in forma and
seeing what happens <g> The headbutts are particularly hidden.
Pak Victor, my Maha Guru silat, had some videos with Bob VanNatta
through I&I.
Let me know if you have questions about your practice.
Chas
tim
: From your description, it doesn't sound as if you learned the same Serak
: djurus I'm learning, either, though I will second what Chas said -- the
hmm, i wonder why that is. the jurus i learned come from pak herman
suwanda, is the serak in mande muda different from other serak? that's
odd. maybe i'm mistaken and they're not serak.
: djurus aren't meant to be used per se, they are more for you to learn
: patterns of movement, and any given piece can be made to serve high, low,
: inside, outside, etc., depending on a whole lot of factors that are a lot
: more difficult to describe than to show. A block could be a trap or a pull,
: and vice-versa.
well, i suppose i'll just keep training them. :)
: Interesting that you were able to get so many djurus in a seminar setting.
: From my own practice, we spend months learning and practicing one, just to
: learn various possible applications, and even then, we hardly scratch the
: surface. Every time we get a new student, we go back to Djuru #1, and I
: learn new stuff every time . . .
well, it was a herman suwanda seminar, and we went through them quickly,
so i got the impression that he was checking out everyone's form. since
i didn't know them, i was trying like hell to remember how they went.
we also did some tanjakan jurus, those were strange, i don't remember
much of those, and we did about 15 different harimau langkhas about 6
times each. i didn't make it. :)
tim
Russ Rader
>
> Tim --
>
<snip>
>
> Interesting that you were able to get so many djurus in a seminar setting.
> From my own practice, we spend months learning and practicing one, just to
> learn various possible applications, and even then, we hardly scratch the
> surface. Every time we get a new student, we go back to Djuru #1, and I
> learn new stuff every time . . .
Tim probably learned the Mande Muda version of the Sera jurus (there are
6 in Mande Muda). Pak Herman displayed all the Mande Muda Sera jurus at
the seminar I was at, too. They *are* rather different in appearance
from the de Thouars version, so far as I have seen. Most of the jurus
in Mande Muda are more... straight-forward... than the Sera jurus seem
to be. Except for the Mande Muda Sera jurus, all the ones I have been
exposed to so far have a definite buah, not a large number of possible
interpretations. Not to say you can't get new moves out of the other
Mande Muda jurus, but my teacher usually thinks of that as deviating
from the jurus as much as interpreting them. But, my teacher is a JKD
Concepts kinda guy, so he's pretty good at deviating from the set
forms. ;-)
Russ
Mike Casto
The Sera juru described is from Mande Muda. The reason that he saw so
many (i.e.: 5) at a seminar was that Mande Muda only has 6 Sera jurus.
I have just recently started training Sera-Serak with Pak Victor de
Thouars, but I have known the 6 Mande Muda Sera jurus for several years.
I'm only familiar with the first few djurus of Silat Sera-Serak from Pak
Vic, so I can't say *how many* similarities there are between the two,
but there are some.
As for applications to the specific juru, you've gotten some really good
responses. One of the first ones that I show when teaching/discussing
this particular juru is a gunting (the left hand slapping the forearm of
the right), then come back in with a backfist or forearm smash to their
head, then clothesline them for the final motion. Of course, this is
only one of many, many buahs for this juru. Another would be a "split
entry" (i.e.: punching them with your right hand while pinning their
punch between your left hand and their arm) then grabbing behind their
head and doing a puter kepala (head-turning throw).
As an aside: the way I learned this juru, the second motion isn't a
backfist, it's a forearm. So (doing the juru on your right side), you
punch with your right hand and slap your right forearm with your left
hand, bring your right fist down and back up through the hole between
your left forearm and your chest, drop your right forearm *through* your
right hand (i.e.: it doesn't stop when it hits your left palm, it falls
through it), then turn it over and repeat the first motion.
This is a very minor detail, and it's possible that Pak Herman is
teaching it out differently now than when my instructor learned it in
the mid 80's, but that's how I learned it.
Regards, Mike
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Russ Rader
> Steve Perry <spe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> : From your description, it doesn't sound as if you learned the same
Serak
> : djurus I'm learning, either, though I will second what Chas said -- the
>
> hmm, i wonder why that is. the jurus i learned come from pak herman
> suwanda, is the serak in mande muda different from other serak? that's
> odd. maybe i'm mistaken and they're not serak.
Yes, Pak Herman teaches six Sera jurus as part of Mande Muda.
> well, it was a herman suwanda seminar, and we went through them quickly,
> so i got the impression that he was checking out everyone's form. since
> i didn't know them, i was trying like hell to remember how they went.
> we also did some tanjakan jurus,
Tanjakan? I've never heard of this system in Mande Muda. What were they
like?
> those were strange, i don't remember
> much of those, and we did about 15 different harimau langkhas about 6
> times each. i didn't make it. :)
Hehehehe..... neither did I. :-)
Russ
Taojen1
Sounds like you gave away most of the farm. Thanks from someone who doesn't
know the material but know my own well enough to see the message. Hormat.
Buddy
Chas
> hmm, i wonder why that is. the jurus i learned come from pak herman
> suwanda, is the serak in mande muda different from other serak? that's
> odd. maybe i'm mistaken and they're not serak.
Pak Serak had several students, only one of whom was Mas Djoet. Mas
Djoet taught Johan de Vries, but he also taught other people (who left
lineages also)- and ends up with the de Thouars brothers serak (with
me).
That is to say that there are multiple lineages of the practice of Pak
Serak's teaching.
Even within the family; Uncle Maurice, Uncle Ventje, Uncle John, etc.
all had differing explications of the djurus. It just depends on who you
get them from.
The silat doesn't change, only the pentjak.
Chas
Mushtaq Ali Shah
spe...@teleport.com (Steve Perry) wrote:
> In article <3829...@news.cc.umr.edu>, tim <ri...@umr.edu.remove> wrote:
>
> Tim --
>
> From your description, it doesn't sound as if you learned the same Serak
> djurus I'm learning, either, though I will second what Chas said -- the
> djurus aren't meant to be used per se, they are more for you to learn
> patterns of movement, and any given piece can be made to serve high, low,
> inside, outside, etc., depending on a whole lot of factors that are a lot
> more difficult to describe than to show. A block could be a trap or a pull,
> and vice-versa.
<Snipped>
I believe that what Tim is referring to are the Sarak jurus that were
incorporated in Mande Muda, or at least it sounds so from his description.
If you saw them being done you would recognize them as being from the same
art that Guru Plinck teaches, but done with a completely different flow
and some variation in hand position (assuming that they are indeed the
Mande Muda variations)
Salaam Hormat,
Mushtaq Ali Shah
Chas
> I believe that what Tim is referring to are the Sarak jurus that were
> incorporated in Mande Muda, or at least it sounds so from his description.
> If you saw them being done you would recognize them as being from the same
> art that Guru Plinck teaches, but done with a completely different flow
> and some variation in hand position (assuming that they are indeed the
> Mande Muda variations)
There are certain 'positions' that seem to be reasonably common in all
of the practices that derive from Pak Serak- the 'breaker', the 'serak
punch', the 'buong', the 'sang sat', the silohs, the ten dung kaki, the
slinging kick, the popping front snap, etc. They do not seem to occur in
systems that don't go back to him because they are unique to the
practice of a one-armed and clubbed footed man.
The langkahs change though. Mande Muda works off of a different
'platform' than a more upright Serak sikap. I have not seen their
platform 'diagram', so I don't know if it is a variation of one of ours
or completely different. Their stances would say that they work off of a
different one.
Chas
tim
: As an aside: the way I learned this juru, the second motion isn't a
: backfist, it's a forearm. So (doing the juru on your right side), you
: punch with your right hand and slap your right forearm with your left
: hand, bring your right fist down and back up through the hole between
: your left forearm and your chest, drop your right forearm *through* your
: right hand (i.e.: it doesn't stop when it hits your left palm, it falls
: through it), then turn it over and repeat the first motion.
: This is a very minor detail, and it's possible that Pak Herman is
: teaching it out differently now than when my instructor learned it in
: the mid 80's, but that's how I learned it.
what's more likely is that i just picked it up wrong. :) as i said, it
was the first time i was exposed to them, so i'm trying to remember as
best i can. thanks for the info, mike.
tim
tim
: Tanjakan? I've never heard of this system in Mande Muda. What were they
: like?
tanjakan is a hill/mountain style. i think the people that practice it
live on mountains. it's got lots of changing of elevation quickly
(standing, squatting, jumping). it's got more kicks than the other silat
styles i've seen. the guys i was at the seminar with called them the
"leprechan jurus" cause there's a part where you jump up and tap your
feet, kinda like kicking your heels together. :)
let's see if i can describe what i remember of the first juru. you start
in a kuda with your left hand behind your back and right hand in front.
kneel on your right knee while turning slightly left (kinda like the
beginning of the first harimau langkah). step forward with your right
foot into a squatting position with your ride side facing "forward,"
hands in front of you. jump to your right (original forward direction)
and slap first your front foot with your right hand, then your rear foot
with your left. jump back to the left, slapping your left foot then your
right. then the finish is kneeling on the right knee again, i think.
: > much of those, and we did about 15 different harimau langkhas about 6
: > times each. i didn't make it. :)
: Hehehehe..... neither did I. :-)
only a couple did. ibu shannon didn't even look tired. she's amazing.
in the 9th+ langkahs, she would barely moove and get at least 2 feet off
the ground and spin around in midair from that horribly akward position
of lying on your hip. gives me something to aspire to, i guess. :)
tim
tim
: Sorry- the description you made didn't sound the same to me; a matter of
: my comprehension no doubt.
no no, it was a different juru. no doubt it came down from bukti negara
of dethouars serak.
: (the following is my own opinion and interpretation- others would have
: well founded exceptions to my positions)
<snip the excellent advice on training jurus>
wow, thanks, chas. i'm going to save that and come back to it for
probably the rest of my training career. i greatly appreciate it.
: Let me know if you have questions about your practice.
i do have one question, but it's more of terminology. what's a wipe?
i've read it several times, and either i haven't seen it or i'm just not
familiar with the label.
tim
tim
: I believe that what Tim is referring to are the Sarak jurus that were
: incorporated in Mande Muda, or at least it sounds so from his description.
: If you saw them being done you would recognize them as being from the same
: art that Guru Plinck teaches, but done with a completely different flow
: and some variation in hand position (assuming that they are indeed the
: Mande Muda variations)
indeed they are.
i've heard a lot of good things about guru plinck's video, and i've been
thinking about picking it up. does anyone who's seen it think it would
help? (not necessarily with serak, or bukti, isn't the video on bukti?
but just with silat in general)
tim
tim
: no no, it was a different juru. no doubt it came down from bukti negara
: of dethouars serak.
oops, that should have been 'OR dethouars serak,' not 'of.' :)
tim
Steve Perry
> Mushtaq Ali Shah wrote:
> > I believe that what Tim is referring to are the Sarak jurus that were
> > incorporated in Mande Muda, or at least it sounds so from his description.
> > If you saw them being done you would recognize them as being from the same
> > art that Guru Plinck teaches, but done with a completely different flow
> > and some variation in hand position (assuming that they are indeed the
> > Mande Muda variations)
>
> There are certain 'positions' that seem to be reasonably common in all
> of the practices that derive from Pak Serak- the 'breaker', the 'serak
> punch', the 'buong', the 'sang sat', the silohs, the ten dung kaki, the
> slinging kick, the popping front snap, etc. They do not seem to occur in
> systems that don't go back to him because they are unique to the
> practice of a one-armed and clubbed footed man.
> The langkahs change though. Mande Muda works off of a different
> 'platform' than a more upright Serak sikap. I have not seen their
> platform 'diagram', so I don't know if it is a variation of one of ours
> or completely different. Their stances would say that they work off of a
> different one.
>
> Chas
I know there are variations from guru to guru, and even in our style, we
have a couple of these. In the first djuru, we are taught what are
considered the classical moves, then there is an addition for a high-line
attack, added by Pendeker de Thouars. Guru Plinck is careful to point this
out, and to explain why it is shown both ways. It this case, it seems to be
a cultural difference -- the addition being becase because westerners tend
to be headhunters. In our lineage, if you change a djuru, you show it both
ways.
I believe Pak Suwanda knows all kinds of silat systems that he has
incorporated into his teaching, so without seeing 'em, it is hard to say
which are which.
Steved
Chas
> i do have one question, but it's more of terminology. what's a wipe?
> i've read it several times, and either i haven't seen it or i'm just not
> familiar with the label.
If someone grabbed your left forearm, you might run your right hand up
behind their hands (kind of a crossing the arms motion) and then pull
your arm and turn at the waist to free yourself, yes? That is a type of
'wipe'. You are wiping their hands off of you.
In the drill; punch-wipe-punch, it is the two hands up and elbows
forward transition from the right (chamber) punch to the left (chamber),
it looks like a windshield wiper motion. It is the basis for the 'dive',
for the starting attack from #9 and so forth. It looks like a simple
transition, but it is very sophisticated in it's useful applications.
Think of the position of your elbows as you do your djurus- they are
elbow exercises mostly.
In the djurus #3 and #4, it is the 'raking' of one's own arm to free it
from a hold or the exchange of leads while very close to the opponent-
it uses your own body movement for the positioning when you can't move
your opponents' body. The wipe is inside in #3 and outside in #4- in #8
they are reversed and combined, as is the elbow and sang-sat.
Buong becomes an interior wipe to come to the 'chamber' front forward
stance (and to clear the sarong for a front kick in the old usage)
(that's why you touch your little finger to the inside of your right
knee)-
I hope this is getting me on the right track- it's a funny motion(s) to
describe-
Chas
Chas
> i've heard a lot of good things about guru plinck's video, and i've been
> thinking about picking it up. does anyone who's seen it think it would
> help? (not necessarily with serak, or bukti, isn't the video on bukti?
> but just with silat in general)
It is very good- very, very good.
You will find it kind of low key (my opinion)- Maha Guru Plinck is very
much of a technician- you will see his kambangan close to the end of the
tape though- good stuff!
Really good explanation of the platform.
The multiple attacker sequence is excellent- the only criticisms I've
heard was that they all fell down 'too easily' <g> yeah, right-
He's very very slick-
Chas
Chas
(the following is one of those opinions that get me in trouble)
No, you're right. Bukti Negara *is* 'de Thouars' silat.
I do some Serak and have done some BN- I didn't see any difference in
the applications at all, no difference in the principles- the
choreography was 'pared down', the sequences of solo practice were
different, it's more upright, less dependent on the harsh attacks and
more finessed in it's approach to 'casting to the ground'.
It is like the difference between Pak Victor's 'Tongkat' and the Serak
Tulen- it is a little more 'squared', a little more upright for
Westerners attacks, more 'battering' prior to 'throws'. That is to say;
no difference.
Even a greater heresy is that I don't see much difference between that
which Uncle Bill does and what his brothers do. There are more
differences generated by their physical dissimilarities than their
practices.
I think I can prove all this too.
Chas
Badger
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> tim wrote:
> > i do have one question, but it's more of terminology. what's a
wipe?
> > i've read it several times, and either i haven't seen it or i'm just
not
> > familiar with the label.
>
> If someone grabbed your left forearm, you might run your right hand up
> behind their hands (kind of a crossing the arms motion) and then pull
> your arm and turn at the waist to free yourself, yes? That is a type
of
> 'wipe'. You are wiping their hands off of you.
In Shaolin, and some other Chinese systems, that motion is usually
referred to as "stealing hand", often accompanied by a "stealing foot"
cross step.
Badger
--
Northern Shaolin Five Animals Kung Fu
& Filipino Martial Arts
http://www.cyberus.ca/~badger/
tim
<snip wipe description>
: I hope this is getting me on the right track- it's a funny motion(s) to
: describe-
ok, yeah, i'm pretty sure i've seen/done that, all without knowing that's
what it was. that's one of the things i love about silat. you've been
doing these things all along, they're in the jurus/kembangan, just never
knew it. :)
tim
tim
: > : no no, it was a different juru. no doubt it came down from bukti negara
: > : of dethouars serak.
: >
: > oops, that should have been 'OR dethouars serak,' not 'of.' :)
: No, you're right. Bukti Negara *is* 'de Thouars' silat.
<snip>
i see your point, and it seems logical, although i haven't trained in
dethouars silat (that i know of, i'm sure i've done some in inosanto's
maphilindo somewhere.) my point of clarification was that what i saw
could have come from serak or bukti, i don't remember.
tim
Chas
> i see your point, and it seems logical, although i haven't trained in
> dethouars silat (that i know of, i'm sure i've done some in inosanto's
> maphilindo somewhere.) my point of clarification was that what i saw
> could have come from serak or bukti, i don't remember.
Maphilindo is de Thouars' silat too- quiet as it's kept.
<g>
Chas
Russ Rader
>
> Mushtaq Ali Shah <mus...@budget.net> wrote:
> : I believe that what Tim is referring to are the Sarak jurus that were
> : incorporated in Mande Muda, or at least it sounds so from his description.
> : If you saw them being done you would recognize them as being from the same
> : art that Guru Plinck teaches, but done with a completely different flow
> : and some variation in hand position (assuming that they are indeed the
> : Mande Muda variations)
>
> i've heard a lot of good things about guru plinck's video, and i've been
> thinking about picking it up. does anyone who's seen it think it would
> help? (not necessarily with serak, or bukti, isn't the video on bukti?
> but just with silat in general)
Get the video. It is based on principles, not specific jurus, so it can
be useful to any silat player.
Russ
Mushtaq Ali Shah
> > indeed they are.
> > i've heard a lot of good things about guru plinck's video, and i've been
> > thinking about picking it up. does anyone who's seen it think it would
> > help? (not necessarily with serak, or bukti, isn't the video on bukti?
> > but just with silat in general)
>
> Get the video. It is based on principles, not specific jurus, so it can
> be useful to any silat player.
>
> Russ
Absolutely correct. It is one of my all time favorite videos and one of
the most useful you can add to your library IMHO. Guru Plinck works from
Bukti Juru 1, but everything he does with it is pretty much pure Sarak.
The section on "Base, Angle, and Leverage" alone is worth the price of the
video. You may also want to check out Bapak Rudy Ter Linden's 2 tapes
which are also quite good, as his art is in part built from Sarak.
Salam Hormat,
Mushtaq Ali
Russ Rader
And LaCoste kali silat, and Suwanda silat, and Suryadi Jafri silat, and
..... Not trying to minimalize the influence of the de Thouars silat on
Maphilindo (I've seen Guru Dan on Victor's tapes with Paul), just saying
that Maphilindo is more than parts of Sera/Bukti Negara with a different
name.
Russ
Russ Rader
> In article <382C55EA...@home.com>,
> wipe?
> > > i've read it several times, and either i haven't seen it or i'm just
> not
> > > familiar with the label.
> >
> > If someone grabbed your left forearm, you might run your right hand up
> > behind their hands (kind of a crossing the arms motion) and then pull
> > your arm and turn at the waist to free yourself, yes? That is a type
> > of 'wipe'. You are wiping their hands off of you.
>
> In Shaolin, and some other Chinese systems, that motion is usually
> referred to as "stealing hand", often accompanied by a "stealing foot"
> cross step.
This is the very first motion in the very first Mande Muda Jurus Tangan.
It is done as if the right hand was being grabbed, not the left, but it is
exactly as Chas described. It is called a besot, which supposedly means
"peeling the banana".
Russ
Woody Warren
> > which are also quite good, as his art is in part built from Sarak.
One of these tapes does alot of work with elbows. If you are partial to
throwing elbows, like I am you need to check out this tape. He shows alot
of counters to all kinds of different elbow strikes. Most of the counters
are far nastier than the original elbow would have been. It definitely gave
me something to think about. Not to mention taught me a few tricks about
how to throw elbows more effectively.
Woody Warren
PSRA
Chas
> This is the very first motion in the very first Mande Muda Jurus Tangan.
> It is done as if the right hand was being grabbed, not the left, but it is
> exactly as Chas described. It is called a besot, which supposedly means
> "peeling the banana".
There is a hint of it in the first BN djuru; the left hand comes up
under the armpit and down the outside of the right arm- into foreknuckle
(leopard) punches I think. There are some very nice locks and grasps
that come off of that move too.
Chas
Chas
> Chas wrote
> > Maphilindo is de Thouars' silat too- quiet as it's kept.
> > <g>
>
> And LaCoste kali silat, and Suwanda silat, and Suryadi Jafri silat, and
> ..... Not trying to minimalize the influence of the de Thouars silat on
> Maphilindo (I've seen Guru Dan on Victor's tapes with Paul), just saying
> that Maphilindo is more than parts of Sera/Bukti Negara with a different
> name.
Dan Inosanto has studied with Paul for twenty years and more- his
interaction with LaCoste predates that, but you don't see much influence
in D.I.'s work from that source (forgiving the stick work)- look at the
position of the arms (as with Terry Gibsons' tapes)- pure serak stuff;
one short arm and all. The platform, the basic stance....
There is no doubt that Dan has studied from other sources also- but I'm
talking about walking up and looking for a body of information, a
curriculum- it's Paul, all over.
Certainly Maphilindo is 'more' than Serak/BN- one of the hallmarks of
Serak/BN is the efficiency- the guy was a cripple; fewer limbs, fewer
joints- hell, he didn't even have a 'switch lead' movement- he didn't
'back up' well with that clubbed foot, so he left out that too.
And lest you think I'm 'damning by faint praise', please understand that
I think that Dan is one of the premier martial artists in the world
today; a phenom. I think that the only reason BLee got the parts was
that he was prettier than Danny <g>
There is a certain reality in the perception that I don't think that
Paul de Thouars is given the gratitude and appreciation from most of his
most famous students. They act like they had some sort of epiphany of
understanding from practicing under the waterfall.... crap. He has been
the springboard for some of the more famous JKD dudes, a lot of the
silat guys, a number of the eclectic system guys ("I pared down the
moves for combat efficiency...")- and they don't even send Christmas
cards.
No wonder he's pissed <g>
Chas
Chas
Russ said:
> > Get the video. It is based on principles, not specific jurus, so it can
> > be useful to any silat player.
> the most useful you can add to your library IMHO. Guru Plinck works from
> Bukti Juru 1, but everything he does with it is pretty much pure Sarak.
> The section on "Base, Angle, and Leverage" alone is worth the price of the
> which are also quite good, as his art is in part built from Sarak.
For those of you that have bought Willem de Thouars' videos, a lot of
the serak stuff is in Djuru Satu (which actually should have been named
'langka satu' maybe) and Djuru Dua (same comment); the two first long
forms of Kuntao Silat de Thouars.
A lot of the applications from Willems videos are part of the Serak
repertoire- his footwork patterns, entering styles and so on are from
his Family art (IMVVHO)- lots of the throws, the same.
Stevan Plinck explains the principles better than anyone else I've
heard. Even after doing stuff for a long time, he clarified some things
for me in a 'beginners' video. That video will give good service for
practice for a long old time.
Chas
Russ Rader
> Russ Rader wrote:
> > Chas wrote
> > > Maphilindo is de Thouars' silat too- quiet as it's kept.
> > > <g>
> >
> > And LaCoste kali silat, and Suwanda silat, and Suryadi Jafri silat, and
> > ..... Not trying to minimalize the influence of the de Thouars silat
on
> > Maphilindo (I've seen Guru Dan on Victor's tapes with Paul), just
saying
> > that Maphilindo is more than parts of Sera/Bukti Negara with a
different
> > name.
>
> Dan Inosanto has studied with Paul for twenty years and more- his
> interaction with LaCoste predates that, but you don't see much influence
> in D.I.'s work from that source (forgiving the stick work)- look at the
> position of the arms (as with Terry Gibsons' tapes)- pure serak stuff;
> one short arm and all. The platform, the basic stance....
My instructor makes clear distinctions as to what kind of silat he is
teaching, just for historical purposes and such. He will mix Mande Muda
(where he tries to make clear what style within Mande Muda the move comes
from), bits of Bukti Negara or Sera that he has picked up from here or
there, and Lacoste kali silat. The main difference in the stuff that I see
from my teacher is the abundance of guntings, joint locks and joint lock
throws in the kali silat part. I haven't seen these nearly as much in the
BN/Sera stuff I've seen so far. The BN/Sera stuff seems to attack the body
structure more. I love the BN/Sera stuff that I have seen so far, but it
just looks different to me, based on my admittedly small exposure to the de
Thouars arts.
Also, I think that parts of these systems look alike. For instance, a
puter kepala or kinjit looks pretty much like a puter kepala or kinjit, no
matter the system it comes from. And I'm pretty sure that all those
systems mentioned have puters and kinjits. So something that you think
comes from Paul might be something that comes from Paul.... and Pak Herman,
and Lacoste, and....
> There is no doubt that Dan has studied from other sources also- but I'm
> talking about walking up and looking for a body of information, a
> curriculum- it's Paul, all over.
I'm sure that Guru Dan learned a lot from Paul. I guess I would have to
learn more before I can say for sure that Maphilindo is x% this and y%
that. Mike Casto would be much more knowledgeable on this than I. After
all, his art, Sikal, is the precursor to Maphilindo, and his school is now
tight with both Willem and Victor. All I can say is, I have seen some kali
silat that doesn't look much like BN/Sera to my inexperienced eye.
> Certainly Maphilindo is 'more' than Serak/BN- one of the hallmarks of
> Serak/BN is the efficiency- the guy was a cripple; fewer limbs, fewer
> joints- hell, he didn't even have a 'switch lead' movement- he didn't
> 'back up' well with that clubbed foot, so he left out that too.
Hmmm, I reckon guntings and joint locks would be tough for a one-armed man
to pull off too? ;-)
> And lest you think I'm 'damning by faint praise', please understand that
> I think that Dan is one of the premier martial artists in the world
> today; a phenom. I think that the only reason BLee got the parts was
> that he was prettier than Danny <g>
Hehehe... A lot of the stuff that both Guru Dan and Paul do is not pretty
enough for the movies.
> There is a certain reality in the perception that I don't think that
> Paul de Thouars is given the gratitude and appreciation from most of his
> most famous students. They act like they had some sort of epiphany of
> understanding from practicing under the waterfall.... crap. He has been
> the springboard for some of the more famous JKD dudes, a lot of the
> silat guys, a number of the eclectic system guys ("I pared down the
> moves for combat efficiency...")- and they don't even send Christmas
> cards.
> No wonder he's pissed <g>
I agree that Paul de Thouars has been a very big influence on the JKD
Concepts crowd in particular. And credit is due where credit is due. But
how many of those students are now formally allowed to teach what Paul has
taught them, under the name Bukti Negara? My understanding is that he
wants his students to dedicate themselves solely to BN/Sera. I am pretty
sure that the local BN guy here in Michigan won't teach you if he knows you
study another art. But that kind of restriction doesn't seem to sit well
with JKDC people. Trying to get JKD Concepts guys to study only one art is
like trying to herd cats. ;-)
Russ
Steve Perry
> Russ Rader wrote:
> > I agree that Paul de Thouars has been a very big influence on the JKD
> > Concepts crowd in particular. And credit is due where credit is due. But
> > how many of those students are now formally allowed to teach what Paul has
> > taught them, under the name Bukti Negara? My understanding is that he
> > wants his students to dedicate themselves solely to BN/Sera. I am pretty
> > sure that the local BN guy here in Michigan won't teach you if he knows you
> > study another art. But that kind of restriction doesn't seem to sit well
> > with JKDC people. Trying to get JKD Concepts guys to study only one art is
> > like trying to herd cats. ;-)
Russ --
In our class, while not encouraging students particulary to cross-train,
our teacher certainly allows it. We've got a couple of students who study
elsewhere, though this sometimes causes problems. In one case, a new
student was getting flack from his other-style teacher about silat, and
before long, he decided to stop training in the other style.
Some of the techniques from other systems will blend with silat, some don't
mesh well. (We don't back up much, for instance, and in some systems, you
do usually step back and block before countering, so the philosophies are
quickly at odds.)
Steve
Chas
> > > Chas wrote
> > joints- hell, he didn't even have a 'switch lead' movement- he didn't
> > 'back up' well with that clubbed foot, so he left out that too.
>
> Hmmm, I reckon guntings and joint locks would be tough for a one-armed man
> to pull off too? ;-)
No, he just moved closer (so the stub could attack), and braced joint
locks with different parts of his body- that's what makes a lot of our
joint locks so powerful- they have the leverage and weight of the
torquing body.
> > There is a certain reality in the perception that I don't think that
> > Paul de Thouars is given the gratitude and appreciation from most of his
> > most famous students.
.....
> > No wonder he's pissed <g>
> I agree that Paul de Thouars has been a very big influence on the JKD
> Concepts crowd in particular. And credit is due where credit is due. But
> how many of those students are now formally allowed to teach what Paul has
> taught them, under the name Bukti Negara? My understanding is that he
> wants his students to dedicate themselves solely to BN/Sera. I am pretty
> sure that the local BN guy here in Michigan won't teach you if he knows you
> study another art. But that kind of restriction doesn't seem to sit well
> with JKDC people. Trying to get JKD Concepts guys to study only one art is
> like trying to herd cats. ;-)
I hadn't heard that part.
It has always been an article of faith in the family that one is
encouraged to study outside the group and bring it back. That's
interesting.
My entire experience is that you teach everything you know all the time.
The silat is like a river; you dip in as you do, take what you can
contain- the river flows on regardless- it was there before you came and
after you're gone there is no hole where you were....
I didn't know that there were such restrictions on some of the tjabangs.
I don't think I would like it much.
Chas
Russ Rader
> > Concepts crowd in particular. And credit is due where credit is due.
But
> > how many of those students are now formally allowed to teach what Paul
has
> > taught them, under the name Bukti Negara? My understanding is that he
> > wants his students to dedicate themselves solely to BN/Sera. I am
pretty
> > sure that the local BN guy here in Michigan won't teach you if he knows
you
> > study another art. But that kind of restriction doesn't seem to sit
well
> > with JKDC people. Trying to get JKD Concepts guys to study only one
art is
> > like trying to herd cats. ;-)
>
> I hadn't heard that part.
> It has always been an article of faith in the family that one is
> encouraged to study outside the group and bring it back. That's
> interesting.
I could be wrong. I'm just going by what I've heard locally about local
people, and what I see on the BN web site, specifically the list of
teachers. I see none of the "more famous JKD dudes" on the list. Hell, I
don't see some of his "big name" silat students on the list.
> My entire experience is that you teach everything you know all the time.
> The silat is like a river; you dip in as you do, take what you can
> contain- the river flows on regardless- it was there before you came and
> after you're gone there is no hole where you were....
That certainly fits in with my instructor's philosophy. How does that fit
in with a legacy art, such as Sera? I don't fully understand the
distinctions, but it was my understanding that legacy arts are to be taught
"as is"; no changes allowed or wanted. Granted, Bukti Negara is not a
legacy art (more of a bela diri art, if I understand the term?), but still,
perhaps that mindset leads to a drive for stylistic purity?
> I didn't know that there were such restrictions on some of the tjabangs.
> I don't think I would like it much.
Again, I could be wrong. This is just my personal interpretation of the
writing on the wall, as best I can read it. And no disrespect intended to
any of the de Thouars or their arts. It's their stuff, and they can teach
it any way they want to. I'm sure they're not worried about my opinion
anyway! ;-)
Russ
Russ Rader
> > Russ Rader wrote:
>
> > > I agree that Paul de Thouars has been a very big influence on the JKD
> > > Concepts crowd in particular. And credit is due where credit is due. But
> > > how many of those students are now formally allowed to teach what Paul has
> > > taught them, under the name Bukti Negara? My understanding is that he
> > > wants his students to dedicate themselves solely to BN/Sera. I am pretty
> > > sure that the local BN guy here in Michigan won't teach you if he knows you
> > > study another art. But that kind of restriction doesn't seem to sit well
> > > with JKDC people. Trying to get JKD Concepts guys to study only one art is
> > > like trying to herd cats. ;-)
>
>
> In our class, while not encouraging students particulary to cross-train,
> our teacher certainly allows it. We've got a couple of students who study
> elsewhere, though this sometimes causes problems. In one case, a new
> student was getting flack from his other-style teacher about silat, and
> before long, he decided to stop training in the other style.
>
> Some of the techniques from other systems will blend with silat, some don't
> mesh well. (We don't back up much, for instance, and in some systems, you
> do usually step back and block before countering, so the philosophies are
> quickly at odds.)
Understood. But FMA and JKD mix fairly well with silat, at least in my
experience. Besides, your instructor seems to be more open than some.
Sorry about draggin' this thread into the political level, I didn't
intend to. And we had a refectly good technical thread going, too. :-/
Russ
Chas
> I could be wrong. I'm just going by what I've heard locally about local
> people, and what I see on the BN web site, specifically the list of
> teachers. I see none of the "more famous JKD dudes" on the list. Hell, I
> don't see some of his "big name" silat students on the list.
Yeah, it's a trip, isn't it?
After he left his own brothers off, much less all the guys from various
other tjabangs, nothing else was much surprising.
You saw the posting by Uncle Bill on the silat list- this family thing
has slopped over on a lot of people- and that's not even to speak yet of
the ingratitude and self aggrandizement of some of the better known
students.
> > My entire experience is that you teach everything you know all the time.
> That certainly fits in with my instructor's philosophy. How does that fit
> in with a legacy art, such as Sera? I don't fully understand the
> distinctions, but it was my understanding that legacy arts are to be taught
> "as is"; no changes allowed or wanted. Granted, Bukti Negara is not a
> legacy art (more of a bela diri art, if I understand the term?), but still,
> perhaps that mindset leads to a drive for stylistic purity?
I think that Guru Besar Paul sees the dilution of Serak into various
arts and by various people. They take a few years of the art and then go
out into the world teaching 'things from serak'. He has only seen a few
people who stuck with the practice into its sophistication and finesse.
I see guys out there tooting the horn- even *I* could correct their
practice; by video, from a distance, wearing shades.
I've *always* taught a beladiri (personal shield) art- that's why my
name is Kilap Betawi Muda, not 'serak'. Pak Victor says that I have
about 70% of the art- much of it is dependent on physical movement I
cannot do- another part of it is that I won't practice to the level that
they require for *lineage* inclusion. I've picked my level of
involvement- neither do I claim any more than that. When I have worked
with a novice to the level I can help him, I send him to someone else
more competent.
You have to *declare* for Serak Tulen Pusaka. It isn't a casual thing,
and it is tested *all the time*- Serak is a preparation for the formal
fighting floor, and the representation of one's village. It is far more
intense than just learning to fight miscreants in the streets or by
happenstance.
> > I didn't know that there were such restrictions on some of the tjabangs.
> > I don't think I would like it much.
> Again, I could be wrong. This is just my personal interpretation of the
> writing on the wall, as best I can read it. And no disrespect intended to
> any of the de Thouars or their arts. It's their stuff, and they can teach
> it any way they want to. I'm sure they're not worried about my opinion
> anyway! ;-)
The art has 'formalized' over the years. The fights between them has
caused them to change things also. As they moved away (across the
country) from one another, and didn't continue to teach together
(*those* were the days!), each has made adjustments in the relationship
to students and the progression of the curriculum.
There are a few of us who remember in minds' eye how it used to be. Some
have left for their own practice, some have chosen sides, and at least
one of us has pissed off everybody West of the Pecos (a condition I was
born to-)
Chas
Chas
> In our class, while not encouraging students particulary to cross-train,
> our teacher certainly allows it. We've got a couple of students who study
> elsewhere, though this sometimes causes problems. In one case, a new
> student was getting flack from his other-style teacher about silat, and
> before long, he decided to stop training in the other style.
I've never know the de Thouars brothers to shrink from any sort of
comparison- to anything, anytime.
With only a very few exceptions, all of the students that I know were
advanced practitioners in other arts. Many of them own schools with long
credentials from those other arts. Several continue to teach their
'better known' art and hold silat for a more advanced group (after they
pay their dues for a couple of years). Their explanation is that they
are 'better known' at that art; they receive good advertising for that
art; their students 'aren't ready for silat'; 'not everybody *wants* to
be able to do that'....
The injection of mercantilism into teaching.
> Some of the techniques from other systems will blend with silat, some don't
> mesh well. (We don't back up much, for instance, and in some systems, you
> do usually step back and block before countering, so the philosophies are
> quickly at odds.)
And thus invites comparison.
The absolute first thing that my martial art must do is work; all the
time, in any situation, at any range or timing or distancing or
whatthehellever. If they weren't teaching me to fight, and fight pretty
damned well, I could not take the time from my other pursuits to pass
that time frivolously.
If I had ever found anything better, I would have done that- regretfully
(for the generosity of the brothers and their gift to me), but, quickly.
more comparisons- all the time.
Chas
Chas
> Understood. But FMA and JKD mix fairly well with silat, at least in my
> experience.
:-))
> Besides, your instructor seems to be more open than some.
And is the real deal.
Stevan Plinck is a Maha Guru of Serak Tulen. I've heard it said.
Last time I heard, there were three 'maha guru' levels acknowledged by
Paul; Victor, his lineage descendent in the Family style; Stevan Plinck,
the inheritor of BN because it is built from Serak Tulen and he has it;
Danny Inosanto, for his practice of serak and his vast knowledge and
diligent application.
> Sorry about draggin' this thread into the political level, I didn't
> intend to. And we had a refectly good technical thread going, too. :-/
The proper study of martial arts extends to martial arts between groups-
especially when exercised from the seat of power.
Even if one doesn't participate, it is useful in one's own life to watch
the process and learn the machinations.
Chas
Mike Sigman
Chas wrote in message <3830348C...@home.com>...
>
>I think that Guru Besar Paul sees the dilution of Serak into various
>arts and by various people. They take a few years of the art and then go
>out into the world teaching 'things from serak'. He has only seen a few
>people who stuck with the practice into its sophistication and finesse.
>I see guys out there tooting the horn- even *I* could correct their
>practice; by video, from a distance, wearing shades.
Yo Chas.... this reminds me of some of our previous discussions about
people who borrow a few things and come up with hash. Didn't you expound
on how "borrowing" from arts is an accepted approach?? :^))))
Mike
Russ Rader
> Russ Rader wrote:
> > > My entire experience is that you teach everything you know all the time.
> > That certainly fits in with my instructor's philosophy. How does that fit
> > in with a legacy art, such as Sera? I don't fully understand the
> > distinctions, but it was my understanding that legacy arts are to be taught
> > "as is"; no changes allowed or wanted. Granted, Bukti Negara is not a
> > legacy art (more of a bela diri art, if I understand the term?), but still,
> > perhaps that mindset leads to a drive for stylistic purity?
>
> I think that Guru Besar Paul sees the dilution of Serak into various
> arts and by various people. They take a few years of the art and then go
> out into the world teaching 'things from serak'. He has only seen a few
> people who stuck with the practice into its sophistication and finesse.
> I see guys out there tooting the horn- even *I* could correct their
> practice; by video, from a distance, wearing shades.
I think that's where I'm picking up this purist "vibe" from. I can
understand it with Sera, being a legacy art. I can't understand it as
much with Bukti Negara. Besides, getting pissed at a JKDC guy for
picking bits and pieces out of an art, is like getting pissed at a dog
for barking. Dogs just bark; that's what they do. ;-)
> I've *always* taught a beladiri (personal shield) art- that's why my
> name is Kilap Betawi Muda, not 'serak'. Pak Victor says that I have
> about 70% of the art-
After spending 70% of the time, to master 70% of the art, all you have
to do now is spend another 70% of the time, to master the %30 of the
art. ;-)
> There are a few of us who remember in minds' eye how it used to be. Some
> have left for their own practice, some have chosen sides, and at least
> one of us has pissed off everybody West of the Pecos (a condition I was
> born to-)
Hey, dogs bark.... pitbulls fight..... that's what they do. ;-)
Russ
Chas
> Chas wrote:...
> >I think that Guru Besar Paul sees the dilution of Serak into various
> >arts and by various people. They take a few years of the art and then go
> >out into the world teaching 'things from serak'. He has only seen a few
> >people who stuck with the practice into its sophistication and finesse.
> >I see guys out there tooting the horn- even *I* could correct their
> >practice; by video, from a distance, wearing shades.
>
> people who borrow a few things and come up with hash. Didn't you expound
> on how "borrowing" from arts is an accepted approach?? :^))))
I'm talking about Pauls' perception, not my own- further, he makes no
bones about the differences between the 'holy legacy art' and the
'personal shield art'. These guys often use his name as a credential,
but they never give hormat to where they come from.
It would be as if someone took a few of the Chen secrets, claimed them
for their own, and offered no homage for that- anyone out there in
taicheeland like that?
Chas
Mike Sigman
Chas wrote in message <38307FB3...@home.com>...
>I'm talking about Pauls' perception, not my own- further, he makes no
>bones about the differences between the 'holy legacy art' and the
>'personal shield art'. These guys often use his name as a credential,
>but they never give hormat to where they come from.
>It would be as if someone took a few of the Chen secrets, claimed them
>for their own, and offered no homage for that- anyone out there in
>taicheeland like that?
They don't "take a few a claim them for their own".... they make up some
song and dance or borrow something from Shaolin and claim that it's Tai
Cheee. :^)
Hormel,
Mike
Larry Rudd
<wwa...@tankindustry.com> wrote:
> You may also want to check out Bapak Rudy Ter Linden's 2 tapes
>> > which are also quite good, as his art is in part built from Sarak.
>
>
>One of these tapes does alot of work with elbows. If you are partial to
>throwing elbows, like I am you need to check out this tape. He shows alot
>of counters to all kinds of different elbow strikes. Most of the counters
>are far nastier than the original elbow would have been. It definitely gave
>me something to think about. Not to mention taught me a few tricks about
>how to throw elbows more effectively.
>
>Woody Warren
>PSRA
BTW FYI I've got training videos where some of the stuff on the second
tape he said "don't show this to anybody."
Just a thought.
Larry
He was just a mild mannered reporter
of a metropolitan newspaper
minding his own business
and then...suddenly...
http://www.wileytoons.com/archive/1999/nov99/110799.jpg