Wally Jay or Gracie BJJ?
wushu pork
course we all know about Gracie's BJJ
If you were to pick a school, would you pick Wally Jay's system or Gracie?
why?
is Gracie's system really much better than every other style of BJJ?
Some people I talk to seem to think Gracie's BJJ is the only style worth
learning,
I don't have a complex that makes me want to be the best hand to hand combat
fighter in the world and beat up every person who gives me a dirty look. I
am mainly curious as to how much difference these two styles of Ju Jitsu
has, and what are the benefits of each?
thanks
Gichoke
>
>I've heard good things about Wally Jay's Small Circle Ju Jitsu, and of
>course we all know about Gracie's BJJ
>If you were to pick a school, would you pick Wally Jay's system or Gracie?
Gracies.
>why?
BJJ has been shown to work very well.
SCJ hasn't.
It is like traditional JJ, wristlocks, lever takedowns... all kinds of things
that work very poorly.
It has evolved for the better, of late, and added much BJJ (though they dont
admit it), but MOST of SCJ is not functional.
Check of Wally Jayes dreadful book.
The techniques contained therein are very low %, and many are shown
incorrectly, they just wouldnt work.
>s Gracie's system really much better than every other style of BJJ?
No.It is the same.
>Some people I talk to seem to think Gracie's BJJ is the only style worth
>learning,
All BJJ is Gracie Jiu-jitsu, all Gracie Jiu-jitsu is BJJ.They are the same
thing.All BJJ comes directly or indirectly from the Gracies.
Gi
Kevin P. France
<20011225104211...@mb-cv.aol.com>:
>>Some people I talk to seem to think Gracie's BJJ is the only
>>style worth learning,
>
>All BJJ is Gracie Jiu-jitsu, all Gracie Jiu-jitsu is BJJ.They
>are the same thing.All BJJ comes directly or indirectly from
>the Gracies.
I'm not sure that's true. There's a huge number of Japanese who
moved to Brazil (getting help for such people is why Maeda was
grateful to the Gracie family), and quite a few had done judo or
jujutsu in Japan, and continued to teach once they got there.
Some BJJ may have more of a "cousin" relationship to the Gracie
family's practice than be directly descended from it. It's so
widespread now, with so much interchange of students and
teachers that it would be difficult to tell much beyond a few
anecdotal stories.
Gichoke
>
>>All BJJ is Gracie Jiu-jitsu, all Gracie Jiu-jitsu is BJJ.They
>>are the same thing.All BJJ comes directly or indirectly from
>>the Gracies.
>
>I'm not sure that's true. There's a huge number of Japanese who
>moved to Brazil (getting help for such people is why Maeda was
>grateful to the Gracie family), and quite a few had done judo or
>jujutsu in Japan, and continued to teach once they got there.
>Some BJJ may have more of a "cousin" relationship to the Gracie
>family's practice than be directly descended from it. It's so
>widespread now, with so much interchange of students and
>teachers that it would be difficult to tell much beyond a few
>anecdotal stories.
All BJJ belts and official teachers are handed down by the sole voice of BJJ
the world brazilian jiu-jitsu federation.
http://www.wbjjf.com
There is no ther BJJ recognised by anyone.
Sure, you can learn asome BJJ (as you seem to be saying some brazilian judoka
have), and if you wanna call those guys bjjers, fine.
But all BJJers through the WBJJF have direct lineage to Carlos Gracie sr. thew
founder of BJJ.If you do not have proof of such lineage then no one through the
WBJJF will consider you a BJJer.
As for teaching emphasis of BJJ vs GJJ (I am responding to someone else here),
all teachers have different emphasis in all arts.
But the term Jiu-jitsu was the EXCLUSIVE term used in brazil for the gracies
style (and few none gracies knew the art until the 90's, they were mostly
gracies personal friends).
Upon arriving in america the gracies began using "gracie jiu-jitsu" and when
other brazilians used this in america, rorion gracie sued, which is why the
machados went with "machado jiu-jitsu" and later brazilians went with
"brazilian jiu-jitsu"
None of these names eben existed until the later 80's, and the machados,
gracies, and the other brazilians in the 90's that now use "brazilian
jiu-jitsu" all learned the exact same art from the exact same teachers.
Gi
m0rdant
give you that it takes perfect skill to make it work, but he's got it, and
it does.
It goes back to that idea that there are certain techniques that require a
much higher level of skill to use effectively.
"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011225104211...@mb-cv.aol.com...
caterbro
> SCJ hasn't.
total bosh- you don't know what you're talking about-
> It is like traditional JJ, wristlocks, lever takedowns... all kinds of things
> that work very poorly.
just out of curiosity, - who do you know that does SCJJ?
I know Harry Curtis, and worked out with him plenty, I know Dave
Castoldi, I've met Ed Mclaugh,and so forth.
> It has evolved for the better, of late, and added much BJJ (though they dont
> admit it), but MOST of SCJ is not functional.
totally false- one instructor used to make it a point to mug his
students in dark alleys and see what happened.
I have testimony that SCJJ was doing fairly evolved groundwork in
1990, well before the gracie craze.
> Check of Wally Jayes dreadful book.
> The techniques contained therein are very low %, and many are shown
> incorrectly, they just wouldnt work.
standard fare for a guy who doesn't know from books, being coached by
people who don't know from ju-jitsu- the damn thing is 100pages, if
that- plus, its from when, 1981? the art has come far. I've seen and
felt plenty of small circle stuff, and it is good.
Wally Jay is an excellent martial artist, a teacher of the first
order, and certainly his system has a great deal to offer
Carl
Mike
> that work very poorly.
>
> just out of curiosity, - who do you know that does SCJJ?
> I know Harry Curtis, and worked out with him plenty, I know Dave
> Castoldi, I've met Ed Mclaugh,and so forth.
I've heard good things about Dave. Big guy, right?
Is he still teaching in Mass?
Mike
Gichoke
>
>gic...@aol.com (Gichoke) wrote in message
>> BJJ has been shown to work very well.
>> SCJ hasn't.
>
>total bosh- you don't know what you're talking about-
Video tapes.
The stuff on the geacie instructionals wins MMA matches, the stuff in jays
books rarely do.
>
>> It is like traditional JJ, wristlocks, lever takedowns... all kinds of
>things
>> that work very poorly.
>
>just out of curiosity, - who do you know that does SCJJ?
No one.
But ive seen the vids, read the books and havent seen any do much in MMA.
Gracies have proven their style 1000 times.
Until SCJ is proven, im gonna recomend to RMA to do BJJ instead.
That is common sense.
>I know Harry Curtis, and worked out with him plenty, I know Dave
>Castoldi, I've met Ed Mclaugh,and so forth.
TRined with some guys from Melaughs school awhile back, but it isnt on tape, so
it doesnt matter what I tell you about it.
I cant prove it, so i wont mention it.
> but MOST of SCJ is not functional.
>
>totally false- one instructor used to make it a point to mug his
>students in dark alleys and see what happened.
Did they shoot him? Did a guy happening by shoot him?
> I have testimony that SCJJ was doing fairly evolved groundwork in
>1990, well before the gracie craze.
>
>
Where can i find this info?
>The techniques contained therein are very low %, and many are shown
>> incorrectly, they just wouldnt work.
>
>standard fare for a guy who doesn't know from books, being coached by
>people who don't know from ju-jitsu- the damn thing is 100pages, if
>that- plus, its from when, 1981? the art has come far.
THANK YOU RORION GRACIE, EH?
>
>Wally Jay is an excellent martial artist, a teacher of the first
>order, and certainly his system has a great deal to offer
Fine, no quarrell with that.
Yet still, I was asked what to take SCJ or BJJ.
And why.
It was a fair question and here is a fair answer.
Take BJJ, because it has been proven effective 1000 times in Vale Tudo and
challenge matches.
And that fact is verifiable,
Gi
Peter G Dellys
"caterbro" <cate...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:446c6d08.01122...@posting.google.com...
clipped
> totally false- one instructor used to make it a point to mug his
> students in dark alleys and see what happened.
Well he'd be an idiot of the first order then, wouldn't he?
> I have testimony that SCJJ was doing fairly evolved groundwork in
> 1990, well before the gracie craze.
The Gracie 'craze' ? You mean the one in Brazil that's been functioning
effectively for almost 80 years? Or did it only become a craze when the MA
world had BJJ stuffed down its throat by Rorion Gracie? The BJJ revolution
that continued with UFC, KOTC, Pride, ADCC and the explosion of BJJ
academies and interest in MMA/submission wrestling world-wide?
Some craze.
Peter
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Corwin
position. BJJ is more concerned with on the ground grappling. For me
personally if you want to be a well rounded martial artist you should
have experience with both. But you should also study an art that
emphasizes punching/kicking and one that does a lot of throwing.
Wrist locks etc are indeed a low-percentage gamble in a fight, but to
say that they "work very poorly" is a gross exaggeration. Not every
confrontation/fight is like a MMA match. I have successfully used a
wrist lock/come-along combination many times in gaining control of
someone and controlling them until they cooled down or were otherwise
convinced that a full blown fight with me was not a good idea.
Corwin
GOU RONIN®
Damn, there would be about 6 generations of whoopass in that ring!
GOU RONIN® - The Unforgiven...
ICQ# - 49024165
AOL IM - GouRonin
mIRC - #americankenpo - On Dal.net
http://members.tripod.com/~kenpo_ronin/houseofronin.html
m0rdant
Wally is a pretty jolly guy, cracking jokes, while causing intense
pain...Helio just looks mean.
That is a fight I would like to see.
"GOU RONIN®" <kenpo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ds6l2usa8tba0vg3h...@4ax.com...
myob
> > I have testimony that SCJJ was doing fairly evolved groundwork in
> >1990, well before the gracie craze.
> >
> >
>
> Where can i find this info?
call Curtis and ask him for the goods- he's in woburn.
one of my teachers was training groundwork in 1990- i was hearing it from
her in 93ish strictly small circle stuff, but mount, guard, pass etc.
one answer is that Castoldi was a wrestler, curtis and Mclaugh both judomen
and all of them pros in one respect or another- wally jay also wrestled in hawaii
yea on about fifty years ago.
> >Wally Jay is an excellent martial artist, a teacher of the first
> >order, and certainly his system has a great deal to offer
>
> Fine, no quarrell with that.
> Yet still, I was asked what to take SCJ or BJJ.
> And why.
> It was a fair question and here is a fair answer.
The system is not a dead language- it can vary a great deal depending on
who you are training under, and out this way, it is folks with lots of real experience
and real technique. they train alot of cops, etc
> Take BJJ, because it has been proven effective 1000 times in Vale Tudo and
> challenge matches.
> And that fact is verifiable,
> Gi
don't knock the stuff that flies below radar- check it out for yourself, is what I say.
I was unduly harsh- sorry.
merry christmas you pale wizened little bastard:)
Carl
myob
:
> position. BJJ is more concerned with on the ground grappling.
again, depends on which SCJJ people you are training with.
Curtis used to come around on a regular basis, and everyuthing we did started from
the ground.
myob
> position. BJJ is more concerned with on the ground grappling.
depends on who you are with- this is very important.
wheneverour pet SCJJ instructor would come around, everything we did started from the ground and ended there.
it was *all* groundwork. granted, that's what we asked him for
Carl
myob
> "caterbro" <cate...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:446c6d08.01122...@posting.google.com...
>
> clipped
>
> > totally false- one instructor used to make it a point to mug his
> > students in dark alleys and see what happened.
>
> Well he'd be an idiot of the first order then, wouldn't he?
you want they should test self-defense in speedos and vaseline?
> Peter
Carl
ValeTudoCombat2k
>effectively for almost 80 years? Or did it only become a craze when the MA
>world had BJJ stuffed down its throat by Rorion Gracie? The BJJ revolution
>that continued with UFC, KOTC, Pride, ADCC and the explosion of BJJ
>academies and interest in MMA/submission wrestling world-wide?
>
>Some craze.
>
>Peter
>
>
>
Believe it or not BJJ was not a "craze" in Brazil until about the same time
here, and in some ways it's more of a "craze" in America. We favor soccer
actually.
Peace
Shuurai
>>just out of curiosity, - who do you know that does SCJJ?
>
>No one.
>But ive seen the vids, read the books and havent seen any do much in MMA.
>Gracies have proven their style 1000 times.
>Until SCJ is proven, im gonna recomend to RMA to do BJJ instead.
>That is common sense.
I haven't seen anyone use Yagyu-ryu kenjutsu technique in MMA, but I'm willing
to bet that most of it would work. Just because something isn't in MMA doesn't
mean much beyond MMA. I know plenty of people who study SCJJ and have used it
quite effectively, including several police officers who use those techniques
rather often.
Common sense would be to realize that MMA is only one source of information.
Shuurai
>
>Helio looks like he would get mad and mean sooner than Wally. My images of
>Wally is a pretty jolly guy, cracking jokes, while causing intense
>pain...Helio just looks mean.
I've been to two of Wally's seminars, and even his students generally had
people reeling in pain with relatively minimal effort. Wally himself was
absolutely incredible - I think he'd take Helio.
TravIsGod
>mean much beyond MMA. I know plenty of people who study SCJJ and have used
>it
>quite effectively, including several police officers who use those techniques
>rather often.
I know lots of people who've used lots of things. I've even read about an old
woman who fought off a grizzly by banging it on the nose with a camera.
However, what someone might RECOMMEND as far as fighting off bears is different
from what "people we know" may have used successfully.
Trav
Shuurai
Fair enough. What I'm saying though is that you should not dismiss something
as "not effective" just because you haven't seen it used in MMA. Plenty of
people use SCJJ effectively.
Gichoke
>just out of curiosity, - who do you know that does SCJJ?
>>
>>No one.
>>But ive seen the vids, read the books and havent seen any do much in MMA.
>>Gracies have proven their style 1000 times.
>>Until SCJ is proven, im gonna recomend to RMA to do BJJ instead.
>>That is common sense.
>
>I haven't seen anyone use Yagyu-ryu kenjutsu technique in MMA, but I'm
>willing
>to bet that most of it would work.
but swords arent allowed, SCJJ is.
Please guys, lets stop these stupid weapons statements, they really dont help
your case.
>Just because something isn't in MMA doesn't
>mean much beyond MMA.
unless one has insight.
> I know plenty of people who study SCJJ and have used it
>quite effectively, including several police officers who use those techniques
>rather often.
but alas... no tape.
Gi
Gichoke
The gacies dont admit that though.
They were acvtually more famous in the 50's than in the 80's.
Almost no brazilians outside of Rio had ever heard of BJJ or the Gracies prior
to 1994.
Gi
Gichoke
>
>> > I have testimony that SCJJ was doing fairly evolved groundwork in
>> >1990, well before the gracie craze.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Where can i find this info?
>call Curtis and ask him for the goods- he's in woburn.
Gee I wonder what he'd say?
I thought for a second you'd actually support a point.
Instead you want me to support it.I shouldnt expect much on RMA I guess.
>one of my teachers was training groundwork in 1990- i was hearing it from
> her in 93ish strictly small circle stuff, but mount, guard, pass etc.
>
Then I guess thats why SCJJ guys dominated MMA... oh wait... bad example.
>
>> Fine, no quarrell with that.
>> Yet still, I was asked what to take SCJ or BJJ.
>> And why.
>> It was a fair question and here is a fair answer.
>
>The system is not a dead language- it can vary a great deal depending on
> who you are training under,
Sure, there are tough SCJJ guys, there are tough chess masters too.
> they train alot of cops, etc
>
So do TKD masters.
>
>don't knock the stuff that flies below radar- check it out for yourself, is
>what I say.
Already did.
>
>I was unduly harsh- sorry.
>merry christmas you pale wizened little bastard:)
Have a kwazy kwanza.
Again, I got nuthin agaINST scjj... but BJJ has evidenced its effectiveness
where all can see.
So when forced to choose, a prudent man would choose what has been shown
effective.
Yeah, there is anecdotal evidence of SCJJ working great, but the same can be
said for ANY art.
Gi
Peter G Dellys
"myob" <cymba...@drummingunderwater.com> wrote in message
news:nJhK8$b...@news.ne.mediaone.net...
> you want they should test self-defense in speedos and vaseline?
Nup. I want that no one gets shot/maimed etc making a dumb move like a fake
mugging.
Peter G Dellys
> The gacies dont admit that though.
> They were acvtually more famous in the 50's than in the 80's.
Helio was certainly responsible for that.
> Almost no brazilians outside of Rio had ever heard of BJJ or the Gracies
prior
> to 1994.
Not quite. Vale Tudo fights have been a part of Brazilian culture outside of
Rio for at least 50 years.
These fights were often to settle arguments as to which was the 'better'
fighting style, so Lutre Livre, Capoeira, 'Gracie' JJ and hybrid or
'freestyle' guys would bash it out. The famous/infamous Rickson/Duarte
skirmish on the beach was an impromptu case in point ;>
TravIsGod
>Fair enough. What I'm saying though is that you should not dismiss something
>as "not effective" just because you haven't seen it used in MMA. Plenty of
>people use SCJJ effectively.
So what? I think that chokeboy is saying that he regards BJJ to be MORE
effective at trying to do mostly the same thing.
Trav
Chris Newton
> Helio looks like he would get mad and mean sooner
> than Wally. My images of Wally is a pretty jolly guy,
> cracking jokes, while causing intense pain...
S'funny, most of my JJ instructors have been like that: little guys,
very cheerful, snap you in two in a heartbeat.
Cheers,
Chris