Mario Napoli Throws the Glove at Chen Xiao Wang for CMC Style
Brian C. Allen
>
> Mario claims to be friends with students of Ren Guang Yi and has claimed
> that they side with him in his approach to Taiji. Let's hope these same
> students of Ren Guang Yi will do their best to convince Mario that there are
Though I respect Chen Xiaowang, I do not have the same respect for
Ren Guangyi. I have seen many of Ren's students and have not been
impressed at all. I have seen them in forms and push-hands competitions
and was not impressed. At the Forrest Chang sponsored Chen Xiao Wang
seminar about 1.5 years ago, some of Ren's students were there, and they
were pretty bad. They were heavily corrected over and over about the
same stuff and did not seem to understand how to do the simple
exercises.
They were not new to the art either.
Mario is foolish to question the skill of Chen Xiaowang in an arrogant
manner. However, I am willing to believe that he is at least
acquaintances
with at least one of Ren's students. I am also willing to believe that
that student is not getting much out of Ren's class and believes that
Mario is on tract.
BCA
webCOMBO - America's Free Internet Access Provider
http://www.webcombo.net
Mike Sigman
Xiao Wang's credentials. Mario, who considers himself an expert
representative of the Cheng Man Ching style (and no one appears to dispute
that from the CMC side) has thrown the glove and insulted Chen Xiao Wang.
Mario claims to be friends with students of Ren Guang Yi and has claimed
that they side with him in his approach to Taiji. Let's hope these same
students of Ren Guang Yi will do their best to convince Mario that there are
some things you don't say without stepping up to the plate.
I will contact Ren Guang Yi and Chen Xiao Wang. I assume Mario will name a
time and place that is suitable.
Mike Sigman
********************
Original Message
From: "Mario Napoli"<mrna...@earthlink.net>
Subject: tai-chi-talk: Dear Marty
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:13:29 -0400
[[snip non-pertinent]]
>What has Mr. Chen Guy
>done to deserve this title. same last name?. big deal.. that's called
>nepotism. I'm not impressed.
******************
Mike Sigman
"Brian C. Allen" <b...@webcombo.net> wrote in message
news:3950500B...@webcombo.net...
> Mike Sigman wrote:
> >
>
> > Mario claims to be friends with students of Ren Guang Yi and has claimed
> > that they side with him in his approach to Taiji. Let's hope these same
> > students of Ren Guang Yi will do their best to convince Mario that there
are
>
> Ren Guangyi. I have seen many of Ren's students and have not been
> impressed at all. I have seen them in forms and push-hands competitions
> and was not impressed. At the Forrest Chang sponsored Chen Xiao Wang
> seminar about 1.5 years ago, some of Ren's students were there, and they
> were pretty bad. They were heavily corrected over and over about the
> same stuff and did not seem to understand how to do the simple
> exercises.
> They were not new to the art either.
Well, good, bad, or indifferent it has to be said over and over again that
the student of the teacher is still not the teacher. Everyone has to make
their own name and not hang their hat on someone else's name.
>
> Mario is foolish to question the skill of Chen Xiaowang in an arrogant
> manner. However, I am willing to believe that he is at least
> acquaintances
> with at least one of Ren's students. I am also willing to believe that
> that student is not getting much out of Ren's class and believes that
> Mario is on tract.
I agree.
Mike
nigel_...@my-deja.com
have to go out and get a video camera now, don't you?
I don't soppose any kind soul would like to loan me theirs so I can
video tape this encounter?
Nigel
In article <1iW35.22079$FC6.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Mario the Mouth Napoli has decided to go big time and directly attack
Chen
> Xiao Wang's credentials. Mario, who considers himself an expert
> representative of the Cheng Man Ching style (and no one appears to
dispute
> that from the CMC side) has thrown the glove and insulted Chen Xiao
Wang.
>
> Mario claims to be friends with students of Ren Guang Yi and has
claimed
> that they side with him in his approach to Taiji. Let's hope these
same
> students of Ren Guang Yi will do their best to convince Mario that
there are
> some things you don't say without stepping up to the plate.
>
> I will contact Ren Guang Yi and Chen Xiao Wang. I assume Mario will
name a
> time and place that is suitable.
>
> Mike Sigman
>
> ********************
>
> Original Message
> From: "Mario Napoli"<mrna...@earthlink.net>
> Subject: tai-chi-talk: Dear Marty
> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:13:29 -0400
>
> [[snip non-pertinent]]
> >What has Mr. Chen Guy
> >done to deserve this title. same last name?. big deal.. that's called
> >nepotism. I'm not impressed.
>
> ******************
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mark Goldberg
Mike Sigman wrote:
> Mario the Mouth Napoli has decided to go big time and directly attack Chen
> Xiao Wang's credentials. Mario, who considers himself an expert
> representative of the Cheng Man Ching style (and no one appears to dispute
> that from the CMC side) has thrown the glove and insulted Chen Xiao Wang.
>
> I will contact Ren Guang Yi and Chen Xiao Wang. I assume Mario will name a
> time and place that is suitable.
>
> Mike Sigman
>
> ********************
>
> Original Message
> From: "Mario Napoli"<mrna...@earthlink.net>
> Subject: tai-chi-talk: Dear Marty
> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:13:29 -0400
>
> [[snip non-pertinent]]
> >What has Mr. Chen Guy
> >done to deserve this title. same last name?. big deal.. that's called
> >nepotism. I'm not impressed.
>
> ******************
Well, we've gone from the bizarre to the ridiculous.
The CMC style was advertised for years, to evince style and softness, subtlety,
philosophical training, culture and health as the meaning of tai-chi training-
all demonstrated by a very civilized form of fixed pushing hands training.
Now there's a CMC guy who is an expert shover and lifter ( a shiftler ), and he
shoves his finger up the nose of CXW.
I thought the Chen style was seen by the CMC'ers as fighters who lacked certain
ethereal qualities that they coveted- to be masters of 5 excellences, and such.
And this dopey besmirching of a good chen lineage holder is no doubt part of
that exceptional education for which CMC stylists pride themselves?
Now, one CMC shoveler looks like he maybe might be able to actually win pushing
contests, and CMC'ers openly revel in this?
Once upon a time, Wm CC Chen, the CMC stylist and fighter was sort of looked
down upon by some of the CMC people I met, for his reported fight in 68' in a
movie house. Although cmc people secretly dug his ability to actually fight but
couldn't voice it so easily.
Now this shoveler gets a nod from CMC'ers because he can win shoveling
contests? I prefer Wm Chen's fighting skills to this stuff.
Now- what kind of contest would come out of this?
I think only a knockout should count. Or quiting. No decisions.
Mark
Mike Sigman
<nigel_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8iql81$8mf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> <sigh> You realise of course that this means I'm actually going to
> have to go out and get a video camera now, don't you?
>
> I don't soppose any kind soul would like to loan me theirs so I can
> video tape this encounter?
>
So Mario. Let's set it up. And BTW, you publicly posted this. You've
tried to say I've posted things in the past and I have challenged you to
show them... you can't. I know better than to say something I can't back up
with proof.
We're waiting for your proof. You've set yourself a hard one this time.
Mike Sigman
Vince Brown
He seems the consumate gentleman and willing to see the best in everyone.
I hope I am wrong. I truly in my heart of hearts hope that CXW will
take umbridge at this monkey and do something rather spectacular. And
just a bit icky. (remeber, I'm a xingyi guy...so I have a strong stomach...)
IF there is a meeting, someone please tell me where it will be and I'll
fly out and buy popcorn to watch that fat fuck get driven into the
ground like a tent peg.
Hey Don Miller, here's your chance to step up to. Plus that way I only
have to buy one ticket to the two-fer asskicking.
Vince
Steve Gombosi
Steve
Chas
> Hey Don Miller, here's your chance to step up to. Plus that way I only
> have to buy one ticket to the two-fer asskicking.
It *does* seem that intemperate speech is a stage that these particular
practitioners seem to go through (although 'through' doesn't seem to be
an operative term).
I don't know how a man could expect that a senior practitioner, known
throughout the world, would be a pushover; not from any art; much less
the one that he, himself, is practicing (or not practicing, which seems
to be the question).
This just seems incongruous- I don't know how these guys could get this
far down this path.
Very bizarre-
Chas
"It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!"
http://members.xoom.com/kilap/Keepsafe.htm
http://members.xoom.com/kilap/cane.html
http://members.xoom.com/kilap/monkey.html http://www.kuntaosilat.com/
www.kilap.homepage.com/chas.mpg http://www.paladin-press.com/
JimS
>
>I've met CXW once and have friends who have spent more time with him.
>He seems the consumate gentleman and willing to see the best in everyone.
>
>I hope I am wrong. I truly in my heart of hearts hope that CXW will
>take umbridge at this monkey and do something rather spectacular. And
>just a bit icky. (remeber, I'm a xingyi guy...so I have a strong stomach...)
>IF there is a meeting, someone please tell me where it will be and I'll
>fly out and buy popcorn to watch that fat fuck get driven into the
>ground like a tent peg.
>have to buy one ticket to the two-fer asskicking.
Gawd, I love this kind of talk :-).
I think I'd pay to watch CXW ream Mario's butt myself.
The entertainment value alone with make it worthwhile.
Of course, you and I know Super Mario would be a track star right about then.
This whole thing only serves to show CMCers in a stupid light once again-
what can I say? Seems to be a habit with this crowd...
JS
deja_...@my-deja.com
Mark Goldberg <mgol...@monmouth.com> wrote:
> I thought the Chen style was seen by the CMC'ers as fighters who
> lacked certain ethereal qualities that they coveted- to be masters
> of 5 excellences, and such.
A Chinese-born Chen stylist of over 20 years experience I know talks
about gathering qi from the surrounding rocks and trees. There are new
agers and mystics all over the place in the martial arts. There are no
doubt some in Cheng Man Ching's lineage. So what?
I think you're trolling.
> Now, one CMC shoveler looks like he maybe might be able to actually
> win pushing contests, and CMC'ers openly revel in this?
Duh, what? Sounds like you're making this "revel" thing up to me. I
haven't seen anyone "revel" in Mario's competition wins.
The majority of people in Cheng Man Ching's lineage who I know
personally are opposed to all forms of tournament push hands. Not
because it's competitive, but because it teaches bad habits which have
nothing to do with Tai Chi and are a liability in combat.
> Now this shoveler gets a nod from CMC'ers because he can win
> shoveling contests?
Huh? Who exactly speaks for the Cheng Man Ching and his lineage? Do you
speak for your teacher's teacher every time you open your mouth?
Mr Goldberg, IMNSHO your reasoning doesn't hold much water.
Mario doesn't speak for Cheng Man Ching's style. Only himself.
I know it's fun (in a schoolyard bully kind of way) to jump on the band
wagon when fun is being poked at someone, but at least get your facts
straight.
Regards
Waldo "speaking for myself"
Mike Sigman
<deja_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8irerc$sa3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
>
> Huh? Who exactly speaks for the Cheng Man Ching and his lineage? Do you
> speak for your teacher's teacher every time you open your mouth?
>
> Mr Goldberg, IMNSHO your reasoning doesn't hold much water.
>
> Mario doesn't speak for Cheng Man Ching's style. Only himself.
>
Fair enough. First CMC'er I've seen publicly take a stand about the
obvious. I realize that a lot of the CMC'ers are horrified at the
swaggering and muscle-shoving of some of the people that have moved into the
CMC circles, but they allowed it to happen by not speaking out in the first
place.
I have read all of CMC's books and the physical Taiji descriptions are
completely in accord with all the tenets of good Taiji. What some of CMC's
*followers* have done with their own interpretations is surreal. The ones
who support what Mario does as representative of CMC's Taiji have less
respect for Cheng than some of his enemies.... they are destroying his
reputation, despite all the "National Enquirer" type of logic where they try
to say tournament push hands is good for CMC's Taiji. :^)
Mike Sigman
SlapperX
> Mario the Mouth Napoli has decided to go big time and directly attack Chen
> Xiao Wang's credentials. Mario, who considers himself an expert
> representative of the Cheng Man Ching style (and no one appears to dispute
> that from the CMC side) has thrown the glove and insulted Chen Xiao Wang.
>
> that they side with him in his approach to Taiji. Let's hope these same
> students of Ren Guang Yi will do their best to convince Mario that there are
> some things you don't say without stepping up to the plate.
>
> time and place that is suitable.
>
> Mike Sigman
>
> ********************
>
> Original Message
> From: "Mario Napoli"<mrna...@earthlink.net>
> Subject: tai-chi-talk: Dear Marty
> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:13:29 -0400
>
>
> [[snip non-pertinent]]
> >What has Mr. Chen Guy
> >done to deserve this title. same last name?. big deal.. that's called
> >nepotism. I'm not impressed.
>
> ******************
You should have snipped your entire post, but the vast majority of folks could
give two shits about your petty feudings with nobodies. Are you really such a
whiney self conscious little man that you just cant let it go, let alone keep
this shit out of rma and in your email where it belongs?!!!!
Idiot!
Mike Sigman
"SlapperX" <Sla...@pinheadslayer.net> wrote in message
news:961627699...@news.ntplx.net...
"
[[snip]]
Oh, no... it's our same retard that has a compulsive need to shoot from
behind bushes. Go back to alt.Troll. However, this one goes on file,
too. It's building and guess what's happening soon? Forewarn everyone in
the office, hero.... you'll be blushing.
Vince Brown
SlapperX wrote:
><snip>
>
> Idiot!
Nice signature. You've lived up to it nicely.
Vince
Mark Goldberg
deja_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> ...A Chinese-born Chen stylist of over 20 years experience I know talks
> about gathering qi from the surrounding rocks and trees. There are new
> agers and mystics all over the place in the martial arts. There are no
> doubt some in Cheng Man Ching's lineage. So what?
>
> I think you're trolling.
>
So he's chen style 20 years- why do you assume he's a new ager?
I don't assume he's a new ager because he gathers chi from rocks. I
assume someone's a new ager for other more specific flaws. Now who's
trolling?
>
> > Now, one CMC shoveler looks like he maybe might be able to actually
> > win pushing contests, and CMC'ers openly revel in this?
>
> Duh, what? Sounds like you're making this "revel" thing up to me. I
> haven't seen anyone "revel" in Mario's competition wins.
I haven't heard of any cmc'ers denouncing his antics for what they are
and aren't. But_ I don't get around much so my thoughts are 2nd, even 3rd
hand.
> The majority of people in Cheng Man Ching's lineage who I know
> personally are opposed to all forms of tournament push hands. Not
> because it's competitive, but because it teaches bad habits which have
> nothing to do with Tai Chi and are a liability in combat.
Glad to hear. I've never heard this one from any of the CMC's- the one
about liability in combat.
> > Now this shoveler gets a nod from CMC'ers because he can win
> > shoveling contests?
>
Good question. Who does speak for the style? Someone has to have some
intelligent discourse based upon their experience within that school- it
certainly has been around long enough.
> Mario doesn't speak for Cheng Man Ching's style. Only himself.
>
OK. That's one CMC person.
>
> I know it's fun (in a schoolyard bully kind of way) to jump on the band
> wagon when fun is being poked at someone, but at least get your facts
> straight.
>
> Regards
> Waldo "speaking for myself"
>
Bullying?? Wasn't it a CMC stylist (mario) who jumps up with an absurd put
down of CXW??? Who's a bully. I wouldn't put down any of these guys like
that.
So it's certainly appropriate for me to react, however humanly it is, to
this bizarre lack of understanding about a whole bunch of the internal and
fighting and civility by this 'self proclaimed CMC expert student.
He started this. Not anyone else. Get my facts straight?
Hey. Why not laugh at his antics the way everyone else is here. Then
you'll see that I'm not any bully, or troll or mislead CMC self stylist who
thinks he can BS in the face of CXW.
Why doesn't that offend you? As opposed to your being so offended at my
criticism of his barnyard antics??
You aren't a tad defensive, are you?
Mark
Chas
> You should have snipped your entire post, but the vast majority of folks could
> give two shits about your petty feudings with nobodies. Are you really such a
> whiney self conscious little man that you just cant let it go, let alone keep
> this shit out of rma and in your email where it belongs?!!!!
> Idiot!
You guys should be getting used to the embarrassment, public humiliation
and utter loss of credibility by now.
Why are all you clowns anonymous?
--
deja_...@my-deja.com
Mark Goldberg <mgol...@monmouth.com>
>I don't assume he's a new ager because he gathers chi from rocks. I
>assume someone's a new ager for other more specific flaws.
Whatever. Superstitious if you prefer. You'll find them in Silat,
Karate, Aikido, etc ... qi from rocks and trees, being taught by
ancestral spirits, death touch, kong jing... it's all the same to me. I
don't mind if you believe in these things, but don't bother me with them
please. :)
Unless you can show results, in which case go and see James Randi first
and earn yourself some easy money.
>> Mario doesn't speak for Cheng Man Ching's style. Only himself.
> OK. That's one CMC person.
By that connection I do believe Mike Sigman is the grand authority and
official spokesperson for Feng Zhiqiang.
Hey Mike, are you accepting challenges for Feng too, or do you just
define how his style should be done? :)
Why are none of those Feng students denying this connection? Obviously
Feng is endorsing Mike! Dang, I'm on to something here. Heck, why even
bother asking Feng or some of his senior students? I'm right coz I
heard it on Usenet!
I'm not offended, I'm just pointing out how futile the argument is.
If it makes you feel better, I would be a CMCer by your definition and
as far as I'm concerned I don't see how anyone could seriously think
that Mario speaks for Cheng Man Ching.
Regards
Waldo
Mark Goldberg
deja_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Mark Goldberg <mgol...@monmouth.com>
> >I don't assume he's a new ager because he gathers chi from rocks. I
> >assume someone's a new ager for other more specific flaws.
>
> Whatever. Superstitious if you prefer... it's all the same to me. I
> don't mind if you believe in these things, but don't bother me with them
> please. :)
>
> Unless you can show results, in which case go and see James Randi first
> and earn yourself some easy money.
>
Oh so now you want to try to throw this superstition on me even though
you used it to equivocate the tenuous connection supposedly by a longtime
chen stylist and such beliefs?
So I choose not to condemn the guy on that basis alone ( I dont') and now
you want turn it around and use it to prove your rock solid rationalism.
Hmmm. Disingenuous on your part.
I didn't bother you with it- but your being cute with it now and turning it
around and pretending that I'm the purveyor of this belief. That's false so
don't get cute here, OK?
I'm a member of Randi's JREF. Your the one who asserted some connection
with superstition and new agerery.
I wouldn't insult people for their personal beliefs. Now your the one
making a greater sweep about this new agery. Why?
To escape responsibility for a self proclaimed CMC'er to be publically
questioned by other CMC'ers.
Now, your right. Your not your brothers keeper.
But in the public dialoque that went on here last month ( I had private
email conversations with Mario Napoli about them ), and the idiocy with D
Miller and the Silat guys who invaded a private seminar, a few months ago,
where in the scheme of things do grown men and women elect to debate and
dialogue honestly about what they represent, what they claim to represent?
>
>
> ...I'm not offended, I'm just pointing out how futile the argument is.
>
> If it makes you feel better, I would be a CMCer by your definition and
> as far as I'm concerned I don't see how anyone could seriously think
> that Mario speaks for Cheng Man Ching.
>
> Regards
> Waldo
I think grown up people can honestly discuss this without resorting to
completely irresponsible assertions about themselves or the group that they
represent in some fashion or other.
And I don't know what your CMC connection is or isn't.
But if you do what Mario does and claim CMC as your source for all you
do, and other CMC sylists don't want to question that connection in any
degree and in fact evidence support of Mario, then yes, public dialogue and
questioning is certainly necessary and wholesome.
Equivocating is not an answer.
And if you say as far as your concerned that Mario does not speak at all
for CMC, fine- then you agree with the problem that Mario brought
upon_himself_ by publically challenging the credentials of CXW.
Mark
Mike Sigman
<deja_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8isrtr$r7e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> If it makes you feel better, I would be a CMCer by your definition and
> as far as I'm concerned I don't see how anyone could seriously think
> that Mario speaks for Cheng Man Ching.
>
Yeah, but most of the readers of this list are in America, not some
god-forsaken 3rd-world country on the Pacific Rim that owes its existence to
the kindness of Australia. :^))))
Mario posts that he is supported in his efforts by various CMC "names" and
they don't repudiate him. He asserts in everyone's face that he is an
expert, blah, blah, blah, and intimidates them... they say nothing. So
yes, a certain number of people are given the impression by Mario that he is
an expert and does what CMC did.
Mike Sigman
deja_...@my-deja.com
Mark Goldberg <mgol...@monmouth.com>
[snip]
> where in the scheme of things do grown men and women elect to debate
> and dialogue honestly about what they represent, what they claim to
> represent?
Dunno. That would be a novel thing indeed. Never happened before,
probably never will. I wouldn't hold any hopes up for rec.martial-arts
to be that forum.
> But if you do what Mario does and claim CMC as your source for all
> you do, and other CMC sylists don't want to question that connection
> in any degree and in fact evidence support of Mario, then yes,
> public dialogue and questioning is certainly necessary and wholesome.
Wholesome maybe, but necessary no. I don't claim anything about Cheng
Man Ching. I don't know what Mario claims. Silence from others in
Cheng Man Ching's lineage does not imply that anyone endorses anything.
It is more likely that they simply can't be bothered spending fruitless
hours debating things on usenet.
> And if you say as far as your concerned that Mario does not speak at
> all for CMC, fine- then you agree with the problem that Mario brought
> upon _himself_ by publically challenging the credentials of CXW.
If indeed Mario has brought a problem upon himself, I agree that is
entirely his responsibility.
However, I also think Mike has overhyped the issue somewhat. I wonder if
anything will really come of this?
Mike Sigman
<deja_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8it8kb$4q5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
>
> However, I also think Mike has overhyped the issue somewhat. I wonder if
> anything will really come of this?
Although the people in the CMC tradition often don't see it, I'm doing them
a favor by dragging this bozo out into the sunshine for what he really is.
That will save a number of people from going the wrong way because the
ball-less ones in CMC are to weak to say anything publicly. If that comes
of it, then it's a good thing. It's a good thing for Taiji to expose the
BS. If the CMC people were more interested in Taiji and less in silly games
and role playing, it would help Taiji.
As it is, given the statistical amount of surreal crap (some of it
borderline criminal in its pretense and representation) in the CMC style,
I'd say they should all just stop claiming they do Taiji. Go play somewhere
else.
When you have people like Jonathan "Ichabod Crane" Gaines claiming to have
learned the full Taiji, including the martial, and people don't break into
hysterical laughter... then you have a group of people who have gone over
the edge. :^)
Mike Sigman
Mark Goldberg
deja_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Mark Goldberg <mgol...@monmouth.com>
> [snip]
> > where in the scheme of things do grown men and women elect to debate
> > and dialogue honestly about what they represent, what they claim to
> > represent?
>
> Dunno. That would be a novel thing indeed. Never happened before,
> probably never will. I wouldn't hold any hopes up for rec.martial-arts
> to be that forum.
We're doing it right here. We're just human so honesty has to be fought
for- I don't have any claim to it, nor you, but we try to get to some
firmer divinity as such :)
> >...yes,
> > public dialogue and questioning is certainly necessary and wholesome.
>
> Wholesome maybe, but necessary no. I don't claim anything about Cheng
> Man Ching. I don't know what Mario claims. Silence from others in
> Cheng Man Ching's lineage does not imply that anyone endorses anything.
>
> It is more likely that they simply can't be bothered spending fruitless
> hours debating things on usenet.
No just fruitless hours proclaiming the truths of taiji and ignoring
anyone who disagrees. And that's why it's necessary. You may not claim
anything but others do. Where by the way is your civic responsibility here.
Don't you feel compelled to answer up for things done in your styles name?
> ...If indeed Mario has brought a problem upon himself, I agree that is
> entirely his responsibility.
>
> However, I also think Mike has overhyped the issue somewhat. I wonder if
> anything will really come of this?
>
> Regards
> Waldo
>
Mike has not overhyped this. He has simply brought it up, and asked
forthright questions, as is his temperment.
When I chose to criticise a chen teacher a couple years ago, some chen guys
all privately emailed and said' good questions' And yes it was hard for
them also to look at the problems existing yet they managed to survive them
and go forth.
The CMC folks have notoriously denied any responsibility for there actions,
beliefs, teachings of CMC, and everyone acts like a politician when it
comes to questions regarding their practices. Or worse. And Mario
represents a whole bunch of CMC sytlists who have privately supported his
actions. Now he's up to challenging the credibility of CXW. Good. Let him
prove it.
Mark
JimS
>
>
><deja_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:8irerc$sa3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> Huh? Who exactly speaks for the Cheng Man Ching and his lineage? Do you
>> speak for your teacher's teacher every time you open your mouth?
>>
>> Mr Goldberg, IMNSHO your reasoning doesn't hold much water.
>>
>>
>
>
>obvious. I realize that a lot of the CMC'ers are horrified at the
>swaggering and muscle-shoving of some of the people that have moved into the
>CMC circles, but they allowed it to happen by not speaking out in the first
>place.
Well, yeah. There's such a thing as "guilt by silence" too.
If somebody remains silent when abuses occur within one's own style,
they may abhor the abuses but if they don't say anything, they shouldn't come
out when criticism of those abuses starts occuring either. Just continue to
lurk behind the scenes like one usually does. Why speak out at all, if one
doesn't have the courage to confront the abuses in the first place?
I think Waldo and Co. have a right to object being lumped into the same bag,
but his complaint breaks down when he tries to make analogies with other well-known
teachers because the situation is completely different. Other teachers don't
necessarily have a cult following among disciples that is well-known with the CMC
crowd. Because CMC is intimately tied into the growth of tai chee in the West, thanx
to Smith's books, he has a unique role in the history of western taijiquan that others
don't. Therefore, ad hoc comparisons with other teachers is a straw man argument.
Instead of complaining about how CMCers are being perceived, the CMCers themselves should
be worried about how their situation became so weird in the first place. Worry about
how others look at you *after* you've learned why your style has produced so many
oddballs making ridiculous claims and having so few results...
JS "a CMCer myself, I might add"
JimS
>
>
>
>Mark Goldberg <mgol...@monmouth.com> wrote:
>> I thought the Chen style was seen by the CMC'ers as fighters who
>> lacked certain ethereal qualities that they coveted- to be masters
>> of 5 excellences, and such.
>
>about gathering qi from the surrounding rocks and trees. There are new
>agers and mystics all over the place in the martial arts. There are no
So what? Hey, I'll have you know rocks and trees exert trememdous qi, and it's
the secret that makes Chen stylists much better than CMCers.
>I think you're trolling.
Trolling? Just because Mike comes up with a laid-back subject heading like
"Mario Napoli Throws the Glove at Chen Xiao Wang for CMC Style" and we all
jump on the bandwagon like sharks at the smell of blood, doesn't mean we're
trolling...
Heck, if I were you I'd be more worried if the charges are true or not...
What if Mario is a fruitcake? It's not like you came out and said, "Mario,
you're a moron, and as a loyal CMCer I object to your low-down tactics because it
gives a negative image to my beloved style..."
JS
napo...@my-deja.com
Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu (JimS) wrote:
> In article <8IRERC$SA3$1...@NNRP1.DEJA.COM>, deja_...@my-deja.com
says...
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark Goldberg <mgol...@monmouth.com> wrote:
> >> I thought the Chen style was seen by the CMC'ers as fighters who
> >> lacked certain ethereal qualities that they coveted- to be masters
> >> of 5 excellences, and such.
> >
> >A Chinese-born Chen stylist of over 20 years experience I know talks
> >about gathering qi from the surrounding rocks and trees. There are
new
> >agers and mystics all over the place in the martial arts. There are
no
> >doubt some in Cheng Man Ching's lineage. So what?
>
> So what? Hey, I'll have you know rocks and trees exert trememdous qi,
and it's
> the secret that makes Chen stylists much better than CMCers.
This is the kind of idiocy that kills credibility fast
> >I think you're trolling.
>
> Trolling? Just because Mike comes up with a laid-back subject heading
like
> "Mario Napoli Throws the Glove at Chen Xiao Wang for CMC Style" and we
all
> jump on the bandwagon like sharks at the smell of blood, doesn't mean
we're
> trolling...
You're trolling, Mr S. Mr C. and all your little friends are trolling,
they accuse other of trolling, then they turn around and do the same
thing. You're likely the least credible and most defaming faction in rma
> Heck, if I were you I'd be more worried if the charges are true or
not...
> What if Mario is a fruitcake? It's not like you came out and said,
"Mario,
> you're a moron, and as a loyal CMCer I object to your low-down tactics
because it
> gives a negative image to my beloved style..."
>
> JS
>
speak for yourself, If CMC has one evil pundit, I count a minimum of
four for your side
JimS
>> So what? Hey, I'll have you know rocks and trees exert trememdous qi,
>and it's the secret that makes Chen stylists much better than CMCers.
>
>This is the kind of idiocy that kills credibility fast
Shoot, who ya kidding? You're just jealous because you can't think up a colorful
subject line like "X throws the glove at Chen Xiao Wang".
Admit it.
>> Trolling? Just because Mike comes up with a laid-back subject heading like
>> "Mario Napoli Throws the Glove at Chen Xiao Wang for CMC Style" and we all
>> jump on the bandwagon like sharks at the smell of blood, doesn't mean we're
>> trolling...
>
>You're trolling, Mr S. Mr C. and all your little friends are trolling,
>they accuse other of trolling, then they turn around and do the same
>thing. You're likely the least credible and most defaming faction in rma
Coming from somebody who can't even stand up and be counted when CMC bozos make
silly remarks (these puzzling hesitations about speaking out don't occur when
critics notice the problems however; at that point you're a real chatterbox about
supporting your style), I find your rebuff pretty amusing.
JS
Mark Goldberg
BigBadRed123 wrote:
>
> Slapper, you kickin ass again? Mike is the
> ultimo NO IT ALL OF ALL TIME O.
>
> Dude, he's like a whack O. You hit him
> square in the crack.
You know you could invent 50 name changes and you still havn't got a single
brain in that dim skull of yours. How many head shots did you take to lose it
all?
Mark
BigBadRed123
>From: SlapperX Sla...@pinheadslayer.net
>Date: 6/21/00 3:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <961627699...@news.ntplx.net>
>
>"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Mario the Mouth Napoli has decided to go big time and directly attack C=
>hen
>> Xiao Wang's credentials. Mario, who considers himself an expert
>ute
>> that from the CMC side) has thrown the glove and insulted Chen Xiao Wan=
>g.
>>=20
>> Mario claims to be friends with students of Ren Guang Yi and has claime=
>d
>> that they side with him in his approach to Taiji. Let's hope these sam=
>e
>> students of Ren Guang Yi will do their best to convince Mario that ther=
>e are
>> some things you don't say without stepping up to the plate.
>> I will contact Ren Guang Yi and Chen Xiao Wang. I assume Mario will na=
>me a
>> time and place that is suitable.
>> Mike Sigman
>>=20
>> ********************
>>=20
>> Original Message
>> From: "Mario Napoli"<mrna...@earthlink.net>
>> Subject: tai-chi-talk: Dear Marty
>> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:13:29 -0400
>>=20
>> [[snip non-pertinent]]
>> >What has Mr. Chen Guy
>> >done to deserve this title. same last name?. big deal.. that's called
>> >nepotism. I'm not impressed.
>> ******************
>
>You should have snipped your entire post, but the vast majority of folks =
>could
>give two shits about your petty feudings with nobodies. Are you really su=
>ch a
>whiney self conscious little man that you just cant let it go, let alone =
>keep
>this shit out of rma and in your email where it belongs?!!!!
>
>Idiot!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Slapper, you kickin ass again? Mike is the
napo...@my-deja.com
All that and he actually claims to have time to teach to!
napo...@my-deja.com
mgol...@monmouth.com wrote:
>
>
> BigBadRed123 wrote:
>
> >
> > Slapper, you kickin ass again? Mike is the
> > ultimo NO IT ALL OF ALL TIME O.
> >
> > Dude, he's like a whack O. You hit him
> > square in the crack.
>
single
> brain in that dim skull of yours. How many head shots did you take to
lose it
> all?
>
> Mark
>
>
thats right mark, I'm on aol now to, I am actually half the people in
rma and have been for several years now. Statements like this from and
your buds are darned funny.
BigBadRed123
>From: "Mike Sigman" mikes...@earthlink.net
>Date: 6/20/00 8:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <1IW35.22079$FC6.4...@NEWSREAD1.PROD.ITD.EARTHLINK.NET>
>
>Mario the Mouth Napoli has decided to go big time and directly attack Chen
>Xiao Wang's credentials. Mario, who considers himself an expert
>that from the CMC side) has thrown the glove and insulted Chen Xiao Wang.
>
>Mario claims to be friends with students of Ren Guang Yi and has claimed
>that they side with him in his approach to Taiji. Let's hope these same
>students of Ren Guang Yi will do their best to convince Mario that there are
>some things you don't say without stepping up to the plate.
>
>time and place that is suitable.
>
>
>********************
>
>Original Message
>From: "Mario Napoli"<mrna...@earthlink.net>
>Subject: tai-chi-talk: Dear Marty
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:13:29 -0400
>
>
>>What has Mr. Chen Guy
>>done to deserve this title. same last name?. big deal.. that's called
>>nepotism. I'm not impressed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Give it up already, Siggy BoooUIIII. You made yourself out to be the laughing
stock
of martial arts and you deserve it. No wonder Neijia is GONE.
Mark Goldberg
napo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> thats right mark, I'm on aol now to, I am actually half the people in
> rma and have been for several years now. Statements like this from and
> your buds are darned funny.
>
And if they put your brain in a birds body- the damm thing'd fly backwards
Mark
gun...@dontspamme.inet.net.nz
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>deja_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>>
>> If it makes you feel better, I would be a CMCer by your definition and
>> as far as I'm concerned I don't see how anyone could seriously think
>> that Mario speaks for Cheng Man Ching.
>>
>Yeah, but most of the readers of this list are in America, not some
>god-forsaken 3rd-world country on the Pacific Rim that owes its existence to
>the kindness of Australia. :^))))
God-forsaken?
We prefer 'God-zone'
3rd-world? Your just a meanie!
I have no idea what you are refering to in your Ausie ?joke?
>
>Mike Sigman
>
>
Chris Gunn
Mike Sigman
<gun...@dontspamme.inet.net.nz> wrote in message
news:395609b6...@news.inet.net.nz...
Obviously a joke. I was pulling his leg. :^)
Mike
Mike Sigman
<gun...@dontspamme.inet.net.nz> wrote in message
news:395609B6...@NEWS.INET.NET.NZ...
> God-forsaken?
>
> We prefer 'God-zone'
>
> 3rd-world? Your just a meanie!
>
> I have no idea what you are refering to in your Ausie ?joke?
>
I understand. Perhaps if I had posted it in capital letters, one word per
line?
Try "Aussie", it looks better in print. :^))))
Mike
Mark Goldberg
JimS wrote:
>
> ...Heck, if I were you I'd be more worried if the charges are true or not...
> What if Mario is a fruitcake? It's not like you came out and said, "Mario,
> you're a moron, and as a loyal CMCer I object to your low-down tactics because it
> gives a negative image to my beloved style..."
>
> JS
Just as an aside to this- I had a private conversation with a taiji person who kept
going into denial mode and the discussion regarding this also never got off the
ground. Here's how some of that went:
Me: I don't think I was being irresponsible in my assertions. Others don't either.
Him: I don't think your comments added anything productive to the discussion,
especially since they were second or third hand.
Me: I think that's remarkably presumptuous of you, since you've no idea where I got
my opinions >and this after I mentioned that I'd personally discussed Napoli's
opinions with him privately >before this.
Him: I could say lots of bad things about Chen Xiao Wang on rec.martial-arts which
I've heard second or third hand, but it just seems scurrilous to do so. Here are
some of the things I've heard:
Chen is a communist puppet; he only started training when he was 20 and followed the
path the government wanted him to. That's why he was made "standard-bearer" ahead
of others who were more senior. Chen uses too much li, he doesn't have true jing.
He uses a lot of muscle to substitute for his lack of skill. (this comes from a
Chen stylist who trained with Chen and in Chen village). Chen has multiple
injuries from his Taiji practice, including serious back injuries and damaged
knees. Chen's skill doesn't compare to practitioners in the Yang lineage (this
comes from an outsider Karateka who hadn't trained Taiji at all but had played with
both Chen and top Yang players).
I would never post this because I don't think most of it is true (except perhaps the
injuries bit). It would not be productive in conversation. But it certainly would
raise some "questions". There would be plenty of people who would not think my
assertions were irresponsible, but I have higher standards.
Me: Frankly, I don't think your demonstrating high standards at all. I think your
hiding a ton of ill will and inability to accept frank and forthright discussion.
And your now hiding your inability to face this thread of criticism by pretending
that you have worse dirt on CXW.
So what your saying is your a gracious person because you harbor all kinds of
opinions but never discuss them. Well that's mighty large of you. And who does that
benefit. Certainly not taichi, or students coming to the art, or those trying to
figure out the landscape from the advertisements vs the real world of all the
styles.
No, your being sanctimonious and all I can say about the CXW material is:
Me: Go ahead. I've heard all this before. Put it up on RMA's. Take responsibility
for what your trying to address. Is it just rank opinion, or some thread to define
and defy the boundaries of what is practiced as taiji.
Me: Go ahead. Make a case. Don't do it just to be a rumor monger. Make a point.
Defend the point. Do it to find out a clear understanding of what things are as
opposed to the pretend world.
Me: ALL taiji should be able to survive these questions. Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao Bao
And we would all be better off for the effort. But you won't do this.
But what your implying is that chen is lousy and you have'nt got the stones to put
out anything about it.
Me: Go ahead. Let's be honest and find out the truth. I mean, CMC didn't start
til he was about 30, studied 3 yrs and all of 9 months as an indoor student. But he
got pretty decent. Of course he told Smith that the best people in taichi in china (
in 1970) was his student. Uh huh. And YCF starting studying really at the age of
what 31? and was finished at 49, dead at 51. So CXW has a bad back, bad knees?
started really at 20.
Me: Go ahead. Be frank and forthright. Discuss these issues openly and honestly
on RMA's. But for heavens sake don't do it to be a spiteful child and just tit for
tat and go nowhere, and to get out form under dealing with anything critical of
others standing in CMC's shadow.
Accept some honest responsibility and stop pretending that I'm a 3rd hand lout and
your too noble for any of this. After all you said:
Him: Hey don't get me wrong. Personally I think Mario is way off track. I've
said as much to him. But what difference would it make if I publicly denounced
him? I know from experience how these things go on the net. I'm not stupid enough
to get tangled up in that.
Regards
------
Me: What difference?? If you don't have an honest desire to see the internal arts
face up to what they are, and what they are not, then you will insist that I'm a
poorly motivated person_ But it's not me. It's you.
I care about that world. I'm human. But I don't post just to take gratuitous shots
to make one group or other look lousy. You might ask about my criticism of Ren Quan
Yi 3 yrs ago on RMA's. And again last year.
But to just raise critisms to one up people is silly. And to evade responsiblity
of questioning ones own 'style' is just plain naive.
You disallow me the right to raise issues simply because others brought it up who
are closer to the issue??
Hey- I spoke with Tam Gibbs and was at his funeral. I have thoughts on all this
and many other issues with the neijia after 25 yrs watching and seeing this whole
game for a generation, and I don't need your permission to be a concerned citizen.
And your arguments trying to stop me seem empty and without merit. Good taiji can
only benefit from frank and forthright discussion, criticism and I join in that hope
that ultimately it may pay off much better for the next generation.
Mark
------------------
Abit off track but the point is that if you try to engage some of the folks who've
studied some of the taiji that's been around for the last 30 yrs or so, you get this
furious denial mode about anything that upsets their applecart.
Hell. Let's examine the whole shooting match.
None of us should be afraid of any of this. All we have to loose is our ignorance
and naivete and only good can come of this crisp examination.
But as you can see, mostly it's furiously defensive and somewhat gratuitous
attacks such as this private emailer's one on CXW that you see. And I encouraged him
to put it up as another thread on RMA's but he didn't and won't. Because he would
never allow the same examination of his teacher.
He didn't want anyone to ask the same questions of his teacher or his teachers
supposed followers, and the discussion with him of course went nowhere. As always.
Mark
JimS
>JimS wrote:
>> ...Heck, if I were you I'd be more worried if the charges are true or not...
>> What if Mario is a fruitcake? It's not like you came out and said, "Mario,
>> you're a moron, and as a loyal CMCer I object to your low-down tactics because it
>> gives a negative image to my beloved style..."
>>
>> JS
>
>Just as an aside to this- I had a private conversation with a taiji person who kept
>going into denial mode and the discussion regarding this also never got off the
>ground. Here's how some of that went:
[snipped for brevity]
------------------
> Abit off track but the point is that if you try to engage some of the folks who've
>studied some of the taiji that's been around for the last 30 yrs or so, you get this
>furious denial mode about anything that upsets their applecart.
> Hell. Let's examine the whole shooting match.
> None of us should be afraid of any of this. All we have to loose is our ignorance
>and naivete and only good can come of this crisp examination.
> But as you can see, mostly it's furiously defensive and somewhat gratuitous
>attacks such as this private emailer's one on CXW that you see. And I encouraged him
>to put it up as another thread on RMA's but he didn't and won't. Because he would
>never allow the same examination of his teacher.
>He didn't want anyone to ask the same questions of his teacher or his teachers
>supposed followers, and the discussion with him of course went nowhere. As always.
I agree with your comments. IMHO, it's never a healthy thing when people ignore their
style's dirty laundry and treat all criticism with knee-jerk attacks on the critic's
personality ("well, he's always rude on the internet"), as if the critic's lack of polite
manners were the real problem :-).
It turns into a humerous wish that people would be nicer and not be so blunt; which,
of course, is the reason behind the status quo silence in the first place.
Often the politeness-wishers will say nothing at all until the problems are raised, and
then they're veritable chatterboxes. But not chatterboxes on the actual problems- only the
unfairness of lumping them in with the rest :-).
We're talking about a cult mentality in the normal definition of the term.
Everybody thinks "cult" and they picture folks committing mass suicide and following UFOs.
Unfortunately, they don't seem to realize it's a very common mentality. Even though
Mr/Ms.Stylist thinks they're not exhibiting cult behavior and try their best
to sit on the fence, their predictable reactions against criticism are tell-tale giveaways
about not-so-hidden loyalty baggage. It's easy to spot.
Any time an authority figurehead is promoted beyond where common sense and reason
fears to tread, you've got a problem. For many years now, Cheng Man ching has been that
unreachable figurehead for R.W. Smith and disciples, and it's not a good sign in the CMC
community that students don't question the party line. Ideally, you'd want the CMCers themselves
to come out and say, "hey, wait a minute- taiji assessments can't be as described in the Smith
books, we don't even have accounts of mainland family lineages in his books". And so on.
But you won't see it. Because they don't see it.
JS
.
gun...@dontspamme.inet.net.nz
NO
PLEASE
DON'T
I
UNDERSTAND
YOU
WERE
JOKING
9-)
Chris Gunn
Keep up the good work Siggy.
PS I thought the 'Godzone' comback was pretty funny?
biugung - OG
bigbad...@aol.com (BigBadRed123) wrote:
> Give it up already, Siggy BoooUIIII. You made yourself out to be the
laughing
> stock
> of martial arts and you deserve it. No wonder Neijia is GONE.
>
I fed the antibody into the list months and months ago. Speaking of
oxford, they stole my mind virus weapondry when they cracked blacknets
key. They'll pay, sooner or later. But its of little consequence, my
rotines were way too primitive then.
Let me tellyou, international arms sales is a BITCH. The isrealies
deliver, but they are damn SLOOOOW.
--
biu...@my-dejanews.com-May contain proprietary material-All rights
reserved-Permission to archive/test/translate into other languages-
ICQ: 23934701 - Fax: 603-737-8274
=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-===-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Any abberation [sic] that effects the human mind must have a three
dimensional coordinate point in the human nervous system." - William S.
Burroughs
Mike Sigman
<gun...@dontspamme.inet.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3958863d...@news.inet.net.nz...
Not bad, mate. My wife was from Paramatta, BTW. :^)
Mike