JKD Totally Overrated
atla...@my-dejanews.com
A: Bruce was WAY overrated as a martial artist? I mean, the guy had talent,
skills etc but he was not anywhere near a master.
B: JKD is so...so....I dunno. It just seems like a lot of what he was into
at the time, ie. filipino fighting arts and it lacks a lot of everything
else. I personally think Bruce got away from the good philosophy of Kung Fu
and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc. No more esoteric
stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
just seems weak.
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FB
atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I personally think Bruce got away from the good philosophy of Kung Fu
> and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc. No more esoteric
> stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
> just seems weak.
>
Please say this is a joke.
Bill
>Who thinks:
>B: JKD is so...so....I dunno.
That about sums it up.
The truth in a nutshell I'd say!!
I agree, you don't know!
Perk
http://www.mindspring.com/~perk1/martial.htm
LEESENSEI
>Who thinks:
>
>A: Bruce was WAY overrated as a martial artist? I mean, the guy had talent,
>skills etc but he was not anywhere near a master.
I think that he was overated in the sense of people believing his movie image
over reality, but clearly Mr. Lee was an incredible and gifted martial artist.
I would certainly give him credit for being a master of his art. It is truly a
shame that he died so young, I would love to see how he and his art would have
further evolved over the last 25 years.
While I do not feel that Mr. Lee was the"greatest martial artist of all time"
etc. I do believe that he was one of the finest martial artists of our
generation, He has inspired many people to pursue the martial arts and his
legacy continues to endure twenty years after his untimely death.
>B: JKD is so...so....I dunno. It just seems like a lot of what he was into
>at the time, ie. filipino fighting arts and it lacks a lot of everything
>else. I personally think Bruce got away from the good philosophy of Kung Fu
>and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc. No more
esoteric
>stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
>just seems weak.
>
As I said above, it would be interesting to see how JKD might have evolved
with more time under Mr. Lee's supervision. In a sense, it was a work in
progress and really just a reflection of Bruce Lee's personal growth and
evolution as an artist.
If I understand his concepts, JKD was never really ment to be nailed down into
a sort of classical structured martial art. I am quite sure that it would look
different now if Bruce had lived longer.
From what I have seen of JKD practioners, it seems to be a very direct and
effective eccletic system. They obviously train hard, and their system is very
much combat effective. It may not have the history or refinement of some other
arts, but it is clear that it was created by someone that understands combat
and fighting methods.
Mike
> Who thinks:
>
> A: Bruce was WAY overrated as a martial artist? I mean, the guy had talent,
> skills etc but he was not anywhere near a master.
The only thing we have to go on is the opinions of the people who knew and
worked with him. They ALL say he was phenomenal. Our opinions are only
speculation.
The man who directed "Game of Death" and "Enter the Dragon" saw Bruce fight
many challenge matches, and in his opinion, thought no one alive could have
beaten him at that time. See the documentary "Curse of the Dragon".
I think the opinions of Lee from the people who knew him go a lot further than
our speculation as to his ability.
> B: JKD is so...so....I dunno. It just seems like a lot of what he was into
> at the time, ie. filipino fighting arts and it lacks a lot of everything
> else. I personally think Bruce got away from the good philosophy of Kung Fu
> and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc.
Bruce recognized the simplicity and effciency of boxing strikes with Wing Chun
style blocking. Boxing is hardly weak. Besides, he took what worked for him.
If you think boxing is weak for you, JKD says to find a style or technique
that works best for you. Don't be afraid to discard something if it is
ineffective.
> No more esoteric
> stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
> just seems weak.
His style was far more balanced in all areas of fighting than anything around
today, including, dare I say it?, BJJ, although Lee would have appreciated it.
And let us all remember, JKD is NOT a style, according to Lee himself, even
though it has become that. It is a philosophy of hand-to-hand combat in
particular, and of life, to a lesser extent.
JKD has become what, IN MY OPINION, Lee never wanted it to be. The Tao of JKD
is read like a bible and the thoughts and techniques that occupied Lee's
thoughts at the time of his death are frozen and read like gospel. This is
never what he intended. So maybe what you say about JKD today is a bit true.
However, I think that the philosophies about fighting are sound.
Chowfun9
>The man who directed "Game of Death" and "Enter the Dragon" saw Bruce fight
>many challenge matches, and in his opinion, thought no one alive could have
>beaten him at that time. See the documentary "Curse of the Dragon".
>
Can you please give a reference for this? From my readings I know of only two
challange matches. One when he was a young man in Hong Kong and Wong Shun Leung
went with him as his second, and the second famous one when he first came to
America which got him started on finding his own style. Other than that there
were tons of rumoured fights in which he supposedly won/lost depending on what
side of the argument your on.
>And let us all remember, JKD is NOT a style, according to Lee himself, even
>though it has become that. It is a philosophy of hand-to-hand combat in
>particular, and of life, to a lesser extent.
>JKD has become what, IN MY OPINION, Lee never wanted it to be. The Tao of JKD
>is read like a bible and the thoughts and techniques that occupied Lee's
>thoughts at the time of his death are frozen and read like gospel. This is
>never what he intended. So maybe what you say about JKD today is a bit true.
>However, I think that the philosophies about fighting are sound.
This I would agree with. It does seem that its become more of a religion than a
living philosophy
-----------------------------------------------------------------
If you think your opponent is a fool,
then you are a fool.
kfitzgerald
> and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc. No more esoteric
> stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
> just seems weak.
I'm sorry - ³weak American stuff like boxing² ???
I watched a fight the other night. Gatti and Robinson. A close split
decision for Robinson, who landed an even 400 punches on Gatti, and these
guys can punch harder than the great majority of martial artists can
kick.
KF
atla...@my-dejanews.com
pe...@mindspring.com wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 07:26:52 GMT, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >Who thinks:
>
>
> The truth in a nutshell I'd say!!
> I agree, you don't know!
Hmmm, taking things out of context is so intelligent. You are proving my
point. I am NOT SAYING HE SUCKED. I'm saying he was and is OVERRATED. Read
my other posts regarding this because I'm not going to repeat myself. People
like you are so against opening your eyes to the possiblity that Bruce wasn't
the best ever and his system is far from complete that you just act foolish
instead of being intelligent about it.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
FB <spa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > I personally think Bruce got away from the good philosophy of Kung Fu
> > stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
> > just seems weak.
> >
>
>
Let me explain. Bruce never mastered Wing Chun. Never got to high levels.
We hold him on a pedestal because he was a movie star. There are many living
Wing Chun artists who are 10 times better. Since Bruce left Wing Chun before
reaching super-advanced levels, he looked to other styles such as boxing,
fencing and filipino arts to compliment the Kung Fu he already knew. He was
good, but overrated. JKD is a farce today. A complete joke. I shudder to
think what would have happened if Jean Claude Van Damme would have been the
first big MA movie star 20 years ago and died mysteriously in his prime.
We'd probably have people on RMA saying he was the greatest fighter ever and
studying a style based on TKD, Kickboxing and balet.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
lees...@aol.com (LEESENSEI) wrote:
> Atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >Who thinks:
> >
> >A: Bruce was WAY overrated as a martial artist? I mean, the guy had talent,
> >skills etc but he was not anywhere near a master.
>
> over reality, but clearly Mr. Lee was an incredible and gifted martial
artist.
> I would certainly give him credit for being a master of his art. It is truly
a
> shame that he died so young, I would love to see how he and his art would have
> further evolved over the last 25 years.
>
> While I do not feel that Mr. Lee was the"greatest martial artist of all time"
> etc. I do believe that he was one of the finest martial artists of our
> generation, He has inspired many people to pursue the martial arts and his
> legacy continues to endure twenty years after his untimely death.
>
> >at the time, ie. filipino fighting arts and it lacks a lot of everything
> >and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc. No more
> esoteric
> >stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
> >just seems weak.
> >
> with more time under Mr. Lee's supervision. In a sense, it was a work in
> progress and really just a reflection of Bruce Lee's personal growth and
> evolution as an artist.
>
> If I understand his concepts, JKD was never really ment to be nailed down into
> a sort of classical structured martial art. I am quite sure that it would
look
> different now if Bruce had lived longer.
>
> From what I have seen of JKD practioners, it seems to be a very direct and
> effective eccletic system. They obviously train hard, and their system is
very
> much combat effective. It may not have the history or refinement of some
other
> arts, but it is clear that it was created by someone that understands combat
> and fighting methods.
>
I agree with you completely. Some people mistake "overrated" for "sucking".
I don't think he sucked by any stretch. Just overrated and held on a BIG
pedestal.
Mike
> >
> >The man who directed "Game of Death" and "Enter the Dragon" saw Bruce fight
> >many challenge matches, and in his opinion, thought no one alive could have
> >beaten him at that time. See the documentary "Curse of the Dragon".
> >
>
> Can you please give a reference for this? From my readings I know of only two
> challange matches. One when he was a young man in Hong Kong and Wong Shun Leung
> went with him as his second, and the second famous one when he first came to
> America which got him started on finding his own style. Other than that there
> were tons of rumoured fights in which he supposedly won/lost depending on what
> side of the argument your on.
Again, I refer to the documentary "Curse of the Dragon". The director of Enter the
Dragon is on film saying that during filming, many of the extras would come up and
challenge Lee in a very formal way. Lee always beat them. This is an eye witness
account, and he recalls details of many of the fights.
Hong Kong cinema put out a bounty on Lee: anyone who could beat him would be
garanteed a film contract. Subsequently, he was often challenged on the street
after this in Hong Kong. There were witnessess to these as well, in the
documentary.
The people who used to train with him in San Francisco tell of a person climbing
his fence into his backyard to challenge him. Bruce beat him silly for
disrespecting his home.
There are many well known people who can corraborate these stories. Rent the
video..
JKProduct1
>We hold him on a pedestal because he was a movie star. There are many
living
>Wing Chun artists who are 10 times better. Since Bruce left Wing Chun before
>reaching super-advanced levels, he looked to other styles such as boxing,
>fencing and filipino arts to compliment the Kung Fu he already knew. He was
>good, but overrated. JKD is a farce today. A complete joke. I shudder to
>think what would have happened if Jean Claude Van Damme would have been the
>first big MA movie star 20 years ago and died mysteriously in his prime.
>We'd probably have people on RMA saying he was the greatest fighter ever and
>studying a style based on TKD, Kickboxing and balet.
>
>
I sort of agree, but I do think Bruce Lee reached quite a high level in Wing
Chun. Assuming that one practices diligently, high proficiency is attainable
in a relatively shorter time (3 years) in Wing Chun than in other martial arts.
They might be biased, but some Wing Chun teachers I know (including mine) say
Lee would've probably reached high levels had he stuck to Wing Chun instead of
JKD.
I do think Lee was very good, but I wouldn't put him up there with the legends
such as Leung Jan, Wong Fei Hung. Moreover, it is doubtful whether he could
beat his seniors such as William Cheung or Wong Shun Leung.
JK
"I make money; money doesn't make me" - Common (fka Common Sense)
Damon Stone
>
>People
> like you are so against opening your eyes to the possiblity that Bruce wasn't
> the best ever and his system is far from complete that you just act foolish
> instead of being intelligent about it.
Have you actually read his works, and taken an indepth objective
look at JKD?
You tell me what WC has that JKD doesn't have a comparable way of
matching it?
Show me the holes in JKD philosophy in a practical situation.
JKD is a realistic view at martial arts. Don't confuse what Lee
learned and
espoused as the same thing you hear about in tidbits on this ng.
Try judging
WC by what is said on this ng...
dms
BD
kfitzgerald wrote:
> In article <6slgbr$k6q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc. No more esoteric
> > stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
> > just seems weak.
>
> I'm sorry - ³weak American stuff like boxing² ???
>
> I watched a fight the other night. Gatti and Robinson. A close split
> decision for Robinson, who landed an even 400 punches on Gatti, and these
> guys can punch harder than the great majority of martial artists can
> kick.
>
> KF
Punch harder then the great majority of martial artists can kick? Uh....I hope you
were exaggerating...
kfitzgerald
> Punch harder then the great majority of martial artists can kick?
Uh....I hope you
> were exaggerating...
I'm not exaggerating in the least: these are professional boxers we're
talking about here. Gatti is considered in the top 10 pound-for-pound: he
was ranked 7th by Ring prior to this fight. Given his physical
conditioning, the speed at which he punches, etc., it wouldn't be at all
surprising for him to punch harder than most martial artists can kick.
For one thing, the vast majority of martial artists are hobbyists who
don't kick very well at all.
KF
Stephen Hyde
>kfitzgerald wrote:
>> In article <6slgbr$k6q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> > and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc. No more esoteric
>> > stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
>> > just seems weak.
>>
>> I'm sorry - ³weak American stuff like boxing² ???
>>
>> I watched a fight the other night. Gatti and Robinson. A close split
>> decision for Robinson, who landed an even 400 punches on Gatti, and these
>> guys can punch harder than the great majority of martial artists can
>> kick.
>>
>> KF
>Punch harder then the great majority of martial artists can kick? Uh....I hope you
>were exaggerating...
No i don't think so.
MAllen5904
>B: JKD is so...so....I dunno. It just seems like a lot of what he was into
>at the time, ie. filipino fighting arts and it lacks a lot of everything
>else. I personally think Bruce got away from the good philosophy of Kung Fu
>and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc.
Me:
I dunno what you're basing your judgement on. FMA really doesn't lack anything.
It produces a fighter in about half the time in comparison to a traditional
karate school. I dunno if you understand Bruce Lee's Philosophy. Very
basically, there is no better
or best arts but not every art is suited for every kind of attack. Western
fencing and boxing are great long distance skills, FMA and is great medium
range working angles to the outside of the opponent while WC is good
medium range art for controlling center line. Close range you have Silat, Judo,
Jujitsu Tai Chi etc.......:In themselves are vulnerable
to certain types of fighting but to have the right art for the right situation
is basically what
a JKD student spends his time learning.Also,
a miscomception, we don't learn whole systems, only certain elements from a
given system. I dunno about the rest of you, but out of all the styles I've
ever studied, JKD has
captivated me the most.I've always got to a certain point in prior my training
where I'm not learning anything new and this isn't the case with JKD. I dunno,
its probably just me: there's something in a particular art that we fall
in love with and to us its the best thing since its cool for girls to pick up
guys.
Mallen
Holliwood
<6smf7h$o7g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <35EE4E86...@hotmail.com>,
> FB <spa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
esoteric
>> > stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I
dunno,
>> > just seems weak.
>> >
>>
>>
>
By who's standards? In Jesse Glovers book, he talks about Bruce going back
to China more than once after he had come to the states and the last time he
was there was able to score on any of the top students in Chi Sao. Bruce
also had said he felt that he could score on Yip Man but didn't out of
respect so Yip Man basically threw him around the room.
Never got to high levels.
>We hold him on a pedestal because he was a movie star.
If you only go by his movies this would be true. I train under Sijo James
DeMile one of Bruce's first students, I've seen what he (Sijo DeMile) is
capable of and it never ceases to amaze me that someone that big can be so
fast and powerful, and yet, he still to this day says, NONE of Bruce's
students could touch him. Sijo also says that NOBODY can deal with Jesse in
Chi Sao that he's seen in all his years of martial arts, where did Jesse
learn Chi Sao? Bruce.
There are many living
>Wing Chun artists who are 10 times better.
You're right, there are many, because they're living. Again, you should
check out Jesse Glovers book when you get a chance, it's probably the best
book I've personally ever read about Bruce and his Seattle years, as far as
while Bruce was alive, read below.
Since Bruce left Wing Chun before
>reaching super-advanced levels, he looked to other styles such as boxing,
>fencing and filipino arts to compliment the Kung Fu he already knew.
Incorrect. First off I don't know what "super-advanced levels" of Wing Chun
are, but as Jesse Glover, Sijo James DeMile and any of Bruce's other
original students will tell you, no he did not complete all levels of Wing
Chun but Sijo DeMile and I'm sure Jesse Glover will both tell you that to
this day nobody they have met have been able to use Wing Chun as effective
as Bruce could. Now regarding Bruce using other styles, not speaking on
JKD, when Bruce came to the states, if he could have continued training
under a Gung Fu master he would of, but there were none available to him.
What happened, he surrounded himself with "rough necks". All of Bruce's
first students were fighters, Bruce didn't "teach" these original students,
he used them to get better, he would analyze what they did, find the
good/bad out of the techniques and adjust them. He used them to get better,
but they knew this and they learned Wing Chun from Bruce.
He was
>good, but overrated. JKD is a farce today. A complete joke.
That is your opinion and you're intitled to it. My opinion is, when Bruce
died, so did JKD. Bruce developed JKD as a system for Bruce Lee. He said
make a style your own, yet people follow Bruce's regiment which was made for
Bruce. Also as Bruce started training more and more people, he left certain
"gems" out of his techniques, when Jesse Glover and Sijo James Demile saw
this and asked him why he was changing his original fighting techniques,
Bruce's response was "why should I teach people to beat me?" So it is the
belief of Jesse Glover and Sijo DeMile that JKD was not Bruce's best which
they are both willing to show the difference.
I shudder to
>think what would have happened if Jean Claude Van Damme would have been the
>first big MA movie star 20 years ago and died mysteriously in his prime.
I didn't know Van Damme had a prime. You're comparing a dancer to a
fighter. The only fight i've ever heard of Van Damme getting into was in a
strip bar where he wasn't to impressive. Bruce was in NUMEROUS fights while
in China, and had many fights while in Seattle, all of which had the same
out come one of which Jesse was the referee and Ed Hart was the time keeper
against a Judoka/Karate practitioner that was continously harasing Bruce,
Bruce kept trying to avoid the fight, but this guy kept persisting. Well
the fight was over in 11 seconds. The guy ended up with a broken jaw I
believe. It's in Jesse's book.
>We'd probably have people on RMA saying he was the greatest fighter ever
and
>studying a style based on TKD, Kickboxing and balet.
I doubt that, MOST people can see through B.S., if we couldn't we'd say Van
Damme was the second coming of Bruce.
--
Jay H, Student of
Wing Chun Do
Holliwood
<199809031903...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>>Let me explain. Bruce never mastered Wing Chun. Never got to high
levels.
>>We hold him on a pedestal because he was a movie star. There are many
>living
>>Wing Chun artists who are 10 times better. Since Bruce left Wing Chun
before
>>reaching super-advanced levels, he looked to other styles such as boxing,
was
>>good, but overrated. JKD is a farce today. A complete joke. I shudder
to
>>think what would have happened if Jean Claude Van Damme would have been
the
>>first big MA movie star 20 years ago and died mysteriously in his prime.
and
>>studying a style based on TKD, Kickboxing and balet.
>>
>>
>
Wing
>Chun. Assuming that one practices diligently, high proficiency is
attainable
>in a relatively shorter time (3 years) in Wing Chun than in other martial
arts.
>
>They might be biased, but some Wing Chun teachers I know (including mine)
say
>Lee would've probably reached high levels had he stuck to Wing Chun instead
of
>JKD.
>
>I do think Lee was very good, but I wouldn't put him up there with the
legends
>such as Leung Jan, Wong Fei Hung. Moreover, it is doubtful whether he
could
>beat his seniors such as William Cheung or Wong Shun Leung.
>
>JK
>"I make money; money doesn't make me" - Common (fka Common Sense)
Actually in Jesse Glovers book about Bruce, he stated that the first time
Bruce had gone back to China after coming to Seattle, he could not beat his
seniors, but by the last time he had gone, Bruce said he could easily beat
William and when touching hands with Wong Shun Leung, Wong said "pretty soon
you'll be able to beat me", Bruce told Jesse when he said this Yip Man
looked at Bruce as if to say "you already can". Bruce also told Jesse that
when he touched hands with Yip Man the last time, he felt he could finally
get in on him, but did not out of respect so Yip Man basically was throwing
him around the room.
Holliwood
Jesse Glover, either can inform you of their eye witness to MANY of Bruce's
fights.
--
Jay H, Student of
Wing Chun Do
Chowfun9 wrote in message
<199809031454...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>>
>>The man who directed "Game of Death" and "Enter the Dragon" saw Bruce
fight
>>many challenge matches, and in his opinion, thought no one alive could
have
>>beaten him at that time. See the documentary "Curse of the Dragon".
>>
>
>Can you please give a reference for this? From my readings I know of only
two
>challange matches. One when he was a young man in Hong Kong and Wong Shun
Leung
>went with him as his second, and the second famous one when he first came
to
>America which got him started on finding his own style. Other than that
there
>were tons of rumoured fights in which he supposedly won/lost depending on
what
>side of the argument your on.
>
>
atla...@my-dejanews.com
book by Bruce Lee on what worked for him?
atla...@my-dejanews.com
gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> In article <35EF5289...@epix.net>, BD <p...@epix.net> wrote:
>
> Uh....I hope you
> > were exaggerating...
>
> talking about here. Gatti is considered in the top 10 pound-for-pound: he
> was ranked 7th by Ring prior to this fight. Given his physical
> conditioning, the speed at which he punches, etc., it wouldn't be at all
> surprising for him to punch harder than most martial artists can kick.
>
> For one thing, the vast majority of martial artists are hobbyists who
> don't kick very well at all.
>
two white trash or negroes who are roided out, slugging each other for 12
rounds.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
malle...@aol.com (MAllen5904) wrote:
> >Who thinks:
>
> >B: JKD is so...so....I dunno. It just seems like a lot of what he was into
> >at the time, ie. filipino fighting arts and it lacks a lot of everything
> >and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc.
>
>
> I dunno what you're basing your judgement on. FMA really doesn't lack
anything.
> It produces a fighter in about half the time in comparison to a traditional
> karate school. I dunno if you understand Bruce Lee's Philosophy. Very
> basically, there is no better
> or best arts but not every art is suited for every kind of attack. Western
> fencing and boxing are great long distance skills, FMA and is great medium
> range working angles to the outside of the opponent while WC is good
> medium range art for controlling center line. Close range you have Silat,
Judo,
> Jujitsu Tai Chi etc.......:In themselves are vulnerable
> to certain types of fighting but to have the right art for the right situation
> is basically what
> a JKD student spends his time learning.Also,
> a miscomception, we don't learn whole systems, only certain elements from a
> given system. I dunno about the rest of you, but out of all the styles I've
> ever studied, JKD has
> captivated me the most.I've always got to a certain point in prior my training
> where I'm not learning anything new and this isn't the case with JKD. I dunno,
> its probably just me: there's something in a particular art that we fall
> in love with and to us its the best thing since its cool for girls to pick up
> guys.
>
fradulent teacher??
p...@mail.utexas.edu
>
>
>atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>> I personally think Bruce got away from the good philosophy of Kung Fu
>> and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc. No more esoteric
>> stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
>> just seems weak.
>>
>
>Please say this is a joke.
Well, it's posted from Dejanews from an anonymous person. That seems
to be the requirement for trolling around here.
David Williams
:>Let me explain. Bruce never mastered Wing Chun.
: By who's standards? In Jesse Glovers book, he talks about Bruce going back
: to China more than once after he had come to the states and the last time he
: was there was able to score on any of the top students in Chi Sao. Bruce
: also had said he felt that he could score on Yip Man but didn't out of
: respect so Yip Man basically threw him around the room.
: Never got to high levels.
:>We hold him on a pedestal because he was a movie star.
: If you only go by his movies this would be true. I train under Sijo James
: DeMile one of Bruce's first students, I've seen what he (Sijo DeMile) is
: capable of and it never ceases to amaze me that someone that big can be so
: fast and powerful, and yet, he still to this day says, NONE of Bruce's
: students could touch him. Sijo also says that NOBODY can deal with Jesse in
: Chi Sao that he's seen in all his years of martial arts, where did Jesse
: learn Chi Sao? Bruce.
: There are many living
:>Wing Chun artists who are 10 times better.
: Incorrect. First off I don't know what "super-advanced levels" of Wing Chun
: are, but as Jesse Glover, Sijo James DeMile and any of Bruce's other
: original students will tell you, no he did not complete all levels of Wing
: Chun but Sijo DeMile and I'm sure Jesse Glover will both tell you that to
: this day nobody they have met have been able to use Wing Chun as effective
: as Bruce could. Now regarding Bruce using other styles, not speaking on
: JKD, when Bruce came to the states, if he could have continued training
: under a Gung Fu master he would of, but there were none available to him.
: What happened, he surrounded himself with "rough necks". All of Bruce's
: first students were fighters, Bruce didn't "teach" these original students,
: he used them to get better, he would analyze what they did, find the
: good/bad out of the techniques and adjust them. He used them to get better,
: but they knew this and they learned Wing Chun from Bruce.
Hi Jay,
Both Sijo DeMile and Sijo Glover should then meet Kenneth Chung of
San Francisco. I know that Jesse is aware of him and indicated that he
was going to have one of his guys "check out Ken", but that it had
not happened yet. When they do, they will indeed find a Wing Chun man
equal to Bruce at Wing Chun.
Perhaps the next time either are in the area we can set up a friendly
visit.
Unfortunately Ken and Bruce missed each other. They were each in
different places when Bruce was on the west coast. :(
My teacher on the other hand was a classmate of Bruce's in school and
in Wing Chun. He is a student of Ken Chung for the past 30 years. He
and Master Hawkins Cheung of LA both grew up and hung out with Bruce.
Both are Wing Chun men from Hong Kong and knew Bruce well.
In any case, both Ken and my teacher Ben Der, think very highly of
Bruce and his skill level. From firsthand experience AND from observing
home video footage of Bruce.
If nothing else, Bruce had pheonomenal hand speed and reflexes. A fellow
student of Ken's who did have the opportunity to work out with Bruce in
Chi Sao etc. has remarked to me that Bruce could make the air pop when
he hit. This was without a shirt on, no gi/clothing noises added.
He was fast fast fast.
While there were certainly things that Bruce missed out on in Wing Chun,
with what he had in attributes and with what he added from other arts,
he really compensated quite well thank you. :)
--
David Williams mailto:d...@wingchun.com
Planet Wing Chun http://www.wingchun.com/
Bay Area Wing Chun Association http://www.thesphere.com/SJWC
Mike
> Boxing technique is good..."in theory". When it comes down to it, it's just
> two white trash or negroes who are roided out, slugging each other for 12
> rounds.
Holy shit... I'm running for cover...
kfitzgerald
> Boxing technique is good..."in theory". When it comes down to it, it's just
> two white trash or negroes who are roided out, slugging each other for 12
> rounds.
You're an idiot. Thanks for arguing that point for me.
KF
atla...@my-dejanews.com
Sarah Koto
% atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
%
% > Boxing technique is good..."in theory". When it comes down to it, it's just
% > two white trash or negroes who are roided out, slugging each other for 12
% > rounds.
%
% Holy shit... I'm running for cover...
Nah . . . he's not worth it.
Though I'll admit, it was humorous in a pathetic sort of way (you know, you
laugh because you forgot that there really /are/ people who need the warnings
on blow dryers to not use them while submerged). My husband heard me laughing
and came to see the "negroes" part . . . he made his usual comment . . . that
his knees haven't grown since high school.
-- Sarah Koto
"It's Shake and Bake, and I hay-yalped!"
Holliwood
have you as a guest at the Wing Chun Do headquarters. I find your input
always insightful and respectfull. Also I'm going to be at the World Sport
Jujitsu Championships in November up in Vancouver, B.C. are you
participating in it at all???
--
Jay H, Student of
Wing Chun Do
David Williams wrote in message <6spd63$rlr$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>...
MAllen5904
>fradulent teacher??
>
To be honest and up front with you- - - -
Yes ! But, it is JKD, as it was taught by Bruce,
James and Taky Kimura in Seattle, Oakland and LA schools.
Mallen
atla...@my-dejanews.com
gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> In article <6spcpt$h30$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> You're an idiot. Thanks for arguing that point for me.
>
atla...@my-dejanews.com
malle...@aol.com (MAllen5904) wrote:
> >Bruce never wanted JKD taught so how are you learning "JKD"? Through some
> >fradulent teacher??
> >
> Me:
>
> To be honest and up front with you- - - -
> Yes ! But, it is JKD, as it was taught by Bruce,
At least you admitted it.
> James and Taky Kimura in Seattle, Oakland and LA schools.
>
Whatever floats your boat, homer.
kfitzgerald
> Geez, you've obviously never watched boxing..
Oh, God. Another one. Is it just this group or is it something about the
martial arts that brings out the real pinheads?
KF
Sarah Koto
% In article <6sstbu$6cs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
%
%
% > Geez, you've obviously never watched boxing..
%
% Oh, God. Another one. Is it just this group or is it something about the
% martial arts that brings out the real pinheads?
I think it's the net.
People can be pinheads without being beaten into submission. Nothing like
anonymity to bring out our inner child.
kfitzgerald
> Bruce never wanted JKD taught so how are you learning "JKD"?
Oh, there's a logical argument. If I invent my own martial art, and forbid
anyone to teach it, but someone teaches it anyway, are his students not
learning my martial art?
KF
atla...@my-dejanews.com
gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> In article <6sstbu$6cs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Geez, you've obviously never watched boxing..
>
>
Ok. Besides your weak, pussy, off-the-cuff, Politically Correct, knee-jerk
reaction...what was wrong with what I said? When you watch boxing on TV do
99.9 percent of those fools seem to have technique to you? Hell no. And the
technique that they barely show revolves around the rules of boxing. Sure,
some guys can "box" well, (holifield, roy jones jr etc) BUT, most of the time
they slug. You think Tyson, Holifield, Roy Jones Jr wouldn't be good
fighters unless they had learned boxing skill??? That's the diff between MA
and boxing, Boxing skills put two men in a sport enviroment at the same
weight. A smaller guy can't learn to box and be an awesome street fighter
persay...that is why in MA the styles, KUNGFU, BJJ, JUDO etc put emphasis on
giving the small man the advantage in a streetfight by teaching certain
centers, leverages and physics. Boxers might learn how to punch somewhat but
if you ever think they have skills...just turn on USA fights and watch how
weak that crap is. Entertaining yes....MA..no way.
Eric Berge
In Article<6su6r6$8748$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
<raiko82nospa...@nospamathotmail.nospamatthiscom> writes:
> In article <gbroad-0609...@lon-on1-05.netcom.ca>, gbr...@netcom.ca
(kfitzgerald) wrote:
> % In article <6sstbu$6cs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
> %
> %
> % > Geez, you've obviously never watched boxing..
> %
> % Oh, God. Another one. Is it just this group or is it something about the
> % martial arts that brings out the real pinheads?
>
> I think it's the net.
> People can be pinheads without being beaten into submission. Nothing like
> anonymity to bring out our inner child.
Mmmm... I think it's a combination of the two. Yes, the anonymity of the
net allows people to get away with stuff they wouldn't dare say in the flesh,
but they have to be people predisposed to act that way anyway.
And I've met a much higher proportion of oddballs - many of them nice
oddballs, many ranging from not so nice to outright swine - in martial
arts schools of one kind or another than outside of them.
Martial arts are a very marginal pursuit in our society, and tend to attract
marginal people - think about this: When was the last time someone asked you,
"So, why DID you take up learning how to use a knife?". Then try and remember
when the last time was that you heard someone ask that question about
softball.
Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
Eric Berge
In Article<6suc5t$tl1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <atla...@my-dejanews.com>
writes:
> In article <gbroad-0609...@lon-on1-05.netcom.ca>,
> gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> > In article <6sstbu$6cs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
> >
> > > Geez, you've obviously never watched boxing..
> >
> > Oh, God. Another one. Is it just this group or is it something about the
> > martial arts that brings out the real pinheads?
> Boxing skills put two men in a sport enviroment at the same
> weight. A smaller guy can't learn to box and be an awesome street fighter
> persay...that is why in MA the styles, KUNGFU, BJJ, JUDO etc put emphasis on
> giving the small man the advantage in a streetfight by teaching certain
> centers, leverages and physics. Boxers might learn how to punch somewhat but
> if you ever think they have skills...just turn on USA fights and watch how
> weak that crap is. Entertaining yes....MA..no way.
Gosh, Sparky, you know the same two things about Boxing that you know about
Judo.
Those being jack and shit.
Eric Berge
Rockabilly Hellcat
atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Ok. Besides your weak, pussy, off-the-cuff, Politically Correct, knee-jerk
> reaction...what was wrong with what I said? When you watch boxing on TV do
> 99.9 percent of those fools seem to have technique to you? Hell no. And the
> technique that they barely show revolves around the rules of boxing. Sure,
> some guys can "box" well, (holifield, roy jones jr etc) BUT, most of the time
> they slug. You think Tyson, Holifield, Roy Jones Jr wouldn't be good
> fighters unless they had learned boxing skill??? That's the diff between MA
> and boxing, Boxing skills put two men in a sport enviroment at the same
> weight. A smaller guy can't learn to box and be an awesome street fighter
> persay...that is why in MA the styles, KUNGFU, BJJ, JUDO etc put emphasis on
> giving the small man the advantage in a streetfight by teaching certain
> centers, leverages and physics. Boxers might learn how to punch somewhat but
> if you ever think they have skills...just turn on USA fights and watch how
> weak that crap is. Entertaining yes....MA..no way.
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
What- are you kidding? You don't think someone like Roy Jones possesses a fighting
skill? Next time boxing comes on, don't switch the channel- just watch. Jones could
more than make up for a size differential with his technique. He'd kick Tyson's ass.
Same goes for a lot of good boxers.
Randman
--
"Heaven ain't bad, but you don't get nothin' done..."
-Townes Van Zandt
atla...@my-dejanews.com
Eric Berge <e_db...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> In Article<6suc5t$tl1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <atla...@my-dejanews.com>
> writes:
>
> > In article <gbroad-0609...@lon-on1-05.netcom.ca>,
> > gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> > > In article <6sstbu$6cs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Geez, you've obviously never watched boxing..
> > >
> > > Oh, God. Another one. Is it just this group or is it something about the
> > > martial arts that brings out the real pinheads?
>
> > weight. A smaller guy can't learn to box and be an awesome street fighter
> > persay...that is why in MA the styles, KUNGFU, BJJ, JUDO etc put emphasis on
> > giving the small man the advantage in a streetfight by teaching certain
> > centers, leverages and physics. Boxers might learn how to punch somewhat but
> > if you ever think they have skills...just turn on USA fights and watch how
> > weak that crap is. Entertaining yes....MA..no way.
>
> Judo.
>
> Those being jack and shit.
>
same fights I am.
Rattbat
>From: atla...@my-dejanews.com
>Date: Thu, Sep 3, 1998 03:26 EDT
>Message-id: <6slgbr$k6q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
>Who thinks:
>
>A: Bruce was WAY overrated as a martial artist? I mean, the guy had talent,
>skills etc but he was not anywhere near a master.
>
>B: JKD is so...so....I dunno. It just seems like a lot of what he was into
>at the time, ie. filipino fighting arts and it lacks a lot of everything
>and started doing weak american stuff like boxing etc. No more
esoteric
>stuff, just bobing weaving and other weak non-traditional stuff. I dunno,
>just seems weak.
>
>
Interesting point of view...
Firstly, in no way a master? What does that mean, a master? Their are far too
many martial artist around here that have that title, whether deserved or not.
The title, simply has little or no meaning anymore.
As far as being over rated...
Rated by who/whom? I practice JKD and, do not look on Bruce Lee as a god like
figure. I will concede that some do. As far as being skillful as a martial
artist? I was not there, but I will defer to the views of some talented
martial artist that were there...ie Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis,
etc.etc.... According to these individuals he was very talented. Talented
enough for them to seek him out and train with him.
Your statement about the "weak American stuff, like boxing", makes me suspect.
Boxing is western in origin, but not American. As far as being weak. Have you
ever been punched by a boxer? More and more martial arts are incorporating
boxing punches into their styles. Why? The laws of physics. The overhand
right, the hook, the uppercut. If done correctly, pack a greater wallop then a
traditional vertical punch. Not to mention, the effectiveness of a good jab.
If you need convincing, go rent a UFC tape. Count the number of Phoenix eye
punches you see compared to "weak American stuff".
Finally, you must understand that the man/womans ability takes precedence over
the art/style. However given that, don't dismiss the philosophy of "take what
is useful, reject what is not". There are alot of martial artist out there
that are not confined to the world of tradition, as you are.
kfitzgerald
> In article <gbroad-0609...@lon-on1-05.netcom.ca>,
> gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> > In article <6sstbu$6cs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > > Geez, you've obviously never watched boxing..
> >
> > Oh, God. Another one. Is it just this group or is it something about the
> > martial arts that brings out the real pinheads?
> >
>
> Ok. Besides your weak, pussy, off-the-cuff, Politically Correct, knee-jerk
> reaction...what was wrong with what I said?
You have an odd way of writing. Weak (sorry - am I weak or are my views
weak?) pussy, off-the-cuff, etc. aside, how was my reaction "politically
correct?" This I got to hear.
> When you watch boxing on TV do
> 99.9 percent of those fools seem to have technique to you? Hell no.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, as usual. In fact from a technical standpoint you'll
often find first-rate technique among amateurs and unranked fighters. If
anything, it's the top fighters who tend to let their technique slide a
bit. You'll see far better technique in most boxing gyms than in most
dojos, and among combative sports (point martial arts, kickboxing,
wrestling, tough man competitions, UFC) boxers rank highest in terms of
physical conditioning and you'll see much better technique among boxers
than in any other combative sport. Kickboxers and other full contact
fighters who turn to professional boxing tend to get slaughtered because
they have poor punching technique and hand speed.
>And the
> technique that they barely show revolves around the rules of boxing. Sure,
> some guys can "box" well, (holifield, roy jones jr etc) BUT, most of the time
> they slug.
Holyfield and Roy Jones Jr. are anything but "sluggers". Sluggers is the
last word any knowledgeable person would use to describe these guys.
They're boxers, technicians, both of them. With Roy Jones it's like
someone took a ballet dancer and taught him how to knock a man out with
either hand. Did you see him drop Virgil Hill with one body shot?
>You think Tyson, Holifield, Roy Jones Jr wouldn't be good
> fighters unless they had learned boxing skill???
I never said that. I said you were wrong when you called boxing "weak
American stuff" and boxers łroided out˛ white trash and łnegroes˛ who
łslug˛ each other for twelve rounds. And you are wrong.
That's the diff between MA
> and boxing, Boxing skills put two men in a sport enviroment at the same
> weight. A smaller guy can't learn to box and be an awesome street fighter
> persay
Oh? I'd bet the farm on an in-shape unranked club fighter against about
three-quarters of the martial arts instructors out there, let alone the
great mass of martial arts practitioners: children, women seeking
self-defense, parents of children who decided it was easier to take
lessons than sit and wait for their kids, males in their late teens and
early twenties with heads full of martial arts fantasies that come from
watching too many movies - in short, a great herd of hobbyists who take
three one-hour lessons a week and who have never in their life known what
it's like to be on the business end of real punches, fast punches thrown
by a guy who really, really wants to set you on the floor and knows how to
do it. I've been to five martial arts clubs and met a total of three,
maybe four people in all those clubs, out of sixty or seventy black belts,
who could be thought of as real fighters. Go to any boxing gym, get past
the growing numbers of women and men who have come to "boxercize" and
watch the real fighters, the boys (and a few of us women) who climb
through those ropes and really go about the business of fighting, and
you'll see that there's just no comparison between what goes on in there
and what goes on in 99% of the McDojos out there. Do it. I dare you to do
it. But you haven't (and don't tell me that you have or else you wouldn't
be saying the things that you are) and I doubt that you will.
?that is why in MA the styles, KUNGFU, BJJ, JUDO etc put emphasis on
> giving the small man the advantage in a streetfight by teaching certain
> centers, leverages and physics. Boxers might learn how to punch somewhat but
> if you ever think they have skills...just turn on USA fights and watch how
> weak that crap is. Entertaining yes....MA..no way.
Yes, there are great fighters in Kung-Fu, BJJ, Judo, etc. I've met one or
two. But spare me this "boxers" might learn how to punch "somewhat". In
the punching range, nothing even comes close to boxing.
It's unfortunate, because you really don't have any idea. I was like you
once. I thought that I could drop any middleweight around with my side
kick (oh! what a surprise Katie got when she jammed that thing in and the
guy just sort of grinned and tapped his helmet with his glove and said,
'good kick'.) and if that failed, well, there was always the deadly crane
hand to the eyes or whatever, yada, yada, yada. Someday you might end up
in a real boxer's gym. Tell them you're a black belt in something-or-other
and see what there reaction is. It's kinda like going into a graduate
seminar at a good university and telling them that you graduated from
elementary school. Hey - go for it. Strap on the gloves. Ask to spar for
a few rounds. And, hey, since you know so much, don't listen to the guy
who laces up the gloves for you, and prattle on about "weak American
stuff" and "roided out" "white trash" and "negroes" with no skill. Then
do some sparring. Remember to Dial 911 first cause you'll need an
ambulance.
It amuses me to find so many martial artists who say: yes, but boxer's
don't kick, don't grapple. True. (Although I've known some boxers who
were among the best headbutters and standup wrestlers you'd ever meet.)
But shouldn't you - oh, mighty martial artist - be able to match them on
their own turf? Match them, punch for punch, hand speed for hand speed?
Match their endurance? Their power? Their ability to duck, slip, weave,
and take a shot? Try it. Seriously. I dare you. I double dare you.
Where is John Carlo when you need him?
KF
FB
atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <gbroad-0609...@lon-on1-05.netcom.ca>,
> gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> > In article <6sstbu$6cs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > > Geez, you've obviously never watched boxing..
> >
> > Oh, God. Another one. Is it just this group or is it something about the
> > martial arts that brings out the real pinheads?
> >
>
> Ok. Besides your weak, pussy, off-the-cuff, Politically Correct, knee-jerk
> reaction...what was wrong with what I said? When you watch boxing on TV do
> 99.9 percent of those fools seem to have technique to you? Hell no.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Boxers have more technique than virtually anyone in martial art. They train to
perform it with continuity, though. Your eye may only see "technique" as a reverse
punch from zen-kutsu-dachi, but that doesn't change the facts.
FB
Eric Berge wrote:
> > Boxing skills put two men in a sport enviroment at the same
> > weight. A smaller guy can't learn to box and be an awesome street fighter
> > persay...that is why in MA the styles, KUNGFU, BJJ, JUDO etc put emphasis on
> > giving the small man the advantage in a streetfight by teaching certain
> > centers, leverages and physics. Boxers might learn how to punch somewhat but
> > if you ever think they have skills...just turn on USA fights and watch how
> > weak that crap is. Entertaining yes....MA..no way.
>
> Gosh, Sparky, you know the same two things about Boxing that you know about
> Judo.
>
> Those being jack and shit.
>
> Eric Berge
You're being generous.
Gerald Moffatt
..snipped, but appreciatively snipped...
First rate. I was surprised and impressed by your self-restraint in so
*gently* chiding him for his total lack of knowledge of boxing and its
effectiveness.
Regards,
kfitzgerald
moffattg.s...@cadvision.com (Gerald Moffatt) wrote:
Thanks. And hey, I'm not knocking any other MA. I know a _great_ fighter
by any standard who practices Southern Kung-Fu, and I know a first-rate
grappler - he ties me into a pretzel every other Sunday - who is so mean
and so tough he'd lean on a Panzer division if you asked him nicely. I
just happen to believe that the nature of boxing - it is a full-contact
sport, after all - is more likely to filter out non-fighters and
hobbyists. By contrast, it's probably true that the majority of
black-belts out there have done little more than some forms without really
understanding or practicing the applications and maybe a bit of point
sparring, or maybe non or lightcontact sparring.
As for me, I seldom spar in the boxing gym. I work out there twice a week
- hard - with a coach, but I reserve my sparring for a Shaolin club owned
by a friend, where I'm more likely to find suitable opponents (ie: my size
- and gender) who are less apt to muss up my pretty face. After all, I
have to work the next day - and showing up for work with black eyes isn't
good form.
KF
John Carlo
going overboard . Boxing is the best punching art. and possibly the
best mid-range fighting style .
kfitzgerald
raiko82nospa...@nospamathotmail.nospamatthiscom (Sarah Koto)
wrote:
> In article <gbroad-0609...@lon-on1-20.netcom.ca>,
gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> Neither was Sugar Ray or Ali. The only sucessful slugger I know of is Tyson
> (who has two punches . . . a hook and a uppercut), and he didn't win by
> fighting, he won by intimidating his opponents, who were often second rate
> chumps . . . one of whom he lost to because he found a chump he couldn't
> scare. George Foreman also had a deal of intimidation on his side (look at
> the man's eyes in his old boxing reels . . .), but he did more than just
stand
> there and swing.
Excellent, articulate post.
There are sluggers out there. Tyson became one. In the mid-to-late
eighties, he was actually a better boxer than most people remember with
surprisingly good defensive skills and effective combinations.
The idea that boxers are just unschooled brawlers is just ridiculous as we
both know. Even the sluggers among the boxers shouldn't be underrated: in
fact, in the unfortunate event that I had to chose between fighting a
Sugar Ray Robinson or Roberto Duran, or between a Floyd Patterson or a
George Chuvalo in an alley fight, I'd pick the "boxer" every time. It
would be the difference between fighting a guy with a fencing saber and
fighting a guy with a well used axe. At least the fencer would leave a
presentable corpse. Sluggers have their own logic of combat. Young George
Foreman - who might have become one of the greatest boxers in history but
for a career roadblock named Muhammad Ali - used to work the heavy bag
like this: one punch per second, one big, thunderous punch per second,
sixty punches a minute, for ten minutes. The idea was this: big George
(and ho! he was big!) would stalk you down, corner you, and then treat you
like the heavy bag. He'd smash through the guard, work the body, work the
head, bang, bang, bang, one big punch per second until you'd had enough,
and then he'd give you some more. There's an inelligant kind of logic at
work there: it may not be artful, but then, maybe it is artful. Whoever
said art had to be pretty.
KF
Sarah Koto
%
% > When you watch boxing on TV do
% > 99.9 percent of those fools seem to have technique to you? Hell no.
%
% Wrong, wrong, wrong, as usual. In fact from a technical standpoint you'll
% often find first-rate technique among amateurs and unranked fighters. If
% anything, it's the top fighters who tend to let their technique slide a
% bit. You'll see far better technique in most boxing gyms than in most
% dojos, and among combative sports (point martial arts, kickboxing,
% wrestling, tough man competitions, UFC) boxers rank highest in terms of
% physical conditioning and you'll see much better technique among boxers
% than in any other combative sport. Kickboxers and other full contact
% fighters who turn to professional boxing tend to get slaughtered because
% they have poor punching technique and hand speed.
Very true. Remember, boxers train for /their/ style, their rules. They don't
bother with kicking. They do foot work, as it is very important to be mobile,
but they aren't training but two weapons . . . right fist and left fist. That
degree of specialization is going to make them the kings when it comes to
using your hands and only your hands . . . and even if you /do/ introduce feet
into the mix . . . you think the boxer is going to suddenly start kicking? Or
just crumble if you kick him a few times? He's trained to take multiple, hard
punches to the head and body. (that's why their necks are so darn big)
If you want to look at it with a "true" martial art perspective (for the
record, I /do/ think boxing is a martial art . . . as well as wrestling,
archery, and fencing . . . if sporty versions of TKD and Judo can be, so can
the others) think of Brazillian Jujutsu. They win for one very good reason:
they specialize. They specialize with takedowns and then groundfighting.
That's really as far as the major training goes. The reason they win is
because when they have their opponents on the ground, they are in an element
they know and understand very well, and it's going to be difficult to deal
with it if you don't have the same kind of skills on the ground . . . and
they're also trained to get you on the ground as quickly as possible so that
they /can/ use those specialty skills.
Same goes with folks from other arts who step onto a Judo mat . . . or a
wrestling mat . . . or a Sumo ring. The sportish arts train for their styles
exclusively . . . they're going to win in their element, and they're going to
try to stay in their element when fighting.
Similarly, the boxer is going to be on you using his speciality, his hands.
Odds are, he can take several shots to the upper body as well due to his
conditioning. The majority of Karateka, TKD-ers, etc just don't have that
same kind of conditioning. It's a matter of what they do and how often they
do it . . . and the fact that like IBM, Intel, Microsoft . . . they make you
play /their/ game. And they play it better than anyone else. You get in a
striking match with someone who has trained for only striking, and striking
very hard while taking hard hits back, then you will most certainly lose . . .
just as if you get in a wrestling match with someone who has trained for only
wrestling.
% >And the
% > technique that they barely show revolves around the rules of boxing. Sure,
% > some guys can "box" well, (holifield, roy jones jr etc) BUT, most of the
% time
% > they slug.
%
% Holyfield and Roy Jones Jr. are anything but "sluggers". Sluggers is the
% last word any knowledgeable person would use to describe these guys.
% They're boxers, technicians, both of them. With Roy Jones it's like
% someone took a ballet dancer and taught him how to knock a man out with
% either hand. Did you see him drop Virgil Hill with one body shot?
Neither was Sugar Ray or Ali. The only sucessful slugger I know of is Tyson
(who has two punches . . . a hook and a uppercut), and he didn't win by
fighting, he won by intimidating his opponents, who were often second rate
chumps . . . one of whom he lost to because he found a chump he couldn't
scare. George Foreman also had a deal of intimidation on his side (look at
the man's eyes in his old boxing reels . . .), but he did more than just stand
there and swing.
% That's the diff between MA
% > and boxing, Boxing skills put two men in a sport enviroment at the same
% > weight. A smaller guy can't learn to box and be an awesome street fighter
% > persay
%
% Oh? I'd bet the farm on an in-shape unranked club fighter against about
% three-quarters of the martial arts instructors out there, let alone the
% great mass of martial arts practitioners: children, women seeking
% self-defense, parents of children who decided it was easier to take
% lessons than sit and wait for their kids, males in their late teens and
% early twenties with heads full of martial arts fantasies that come from
% watching too many movies - in short, a great herd of hobbyists who take
% three one-hour lessons a week and who have never in their life known what
% it's like to be on the business end of real punches, fast punches thrown
% by a guy who really, really wants to set you on the floor and knows how to
% do it. I've been to five martial arts clubs and met a total of three,
Again, very true. These folks are /told/ to go out there and beat the other
guy down. They are grown men who do this for a /living/. They aren't there
to learn "the McWarrior way." They're there to fight and knock the other man
out, and they really aren't shy about doing it.
They're also very, very conditioned people who do (or did) this for more than
just a hobby or to get a colored belt. This is their livelyhood and their
sport . . . they want to get somewhere or at least get some prize money . . .
it's not a hobby or a "Weekend Warrior" deal. My own training was very
serious, but I'd never take on a bona fide boxer unless I got to bring my
sword along. (and even then . . .) ;)
And if you want to know how I'd be knowledgeable about a boxer's conditioning
. . I married a former boxer (and I'm rather happy it's former).
% maybe four people in all those clubs, out of sixty or seventy black belts,
% who could be thought of as real fighters. Go to any boxing gym, get past
% the growing numbers of women and men who have come to "boxercize" and
% watch the real fighters, the boys (and a few of us women) who climb
% through those ropes and really go about the business of fighting, and
% you'll see that there's just no comparison between what goes on in there
% and what goes on in 99% of the McDojos out there. Do it. I dare you to do
% it. But you haven't (and don't tell me that you have or else you wouldn't
% be saying the things that you are) and I doubt that you will.
I wouldn't step in the ring. I certainly wouldn't challenge anyone . . . not
the men or the women. (and those are some mean little women . . .)
% ?that is why in MA the styles, KUNGFU, BJJ, JUDO etc put emphasis on
% > giving the small man the advantage in a streetfight by teaching certain
% > centers, leverages and physics. Boxers might learn how to punch somewhat but
% > if you ever think they have skills...just turn on USA fights and watch how
% > weak that crap is. Entertaining yes....MA..no way.
%
% Yes, there are great fighters in Kung-Fu, BJJ, Judo, etc. I've met one or
% two. But spare me this "boxers" might learn how to punch "somewhat". In
% the punching range, nothing even comes close to boxing.
The boxers that only learn how to punch "somewhat" tend to have one or two
bouts. They either wisely retire or can't fight any more due to medical
reasons. It's not a game out there . . . not even in a "friendly spar."
[snip]
% It amuses me to find so many martial artists who say: yes, but boxer's
% don't kick, don't grapple. True. (Although I've known some boxers who
% were among the best headbutters and standup wrestlers you'd ever meet.)
% But shouldn't you - oh, mighty martial artist - be able to match them on
% their own turf? Match them, punch for punch, hand speed for hand speed?
% Match their endurance? Their power? Their ability to duck, slip, weave,
% and take a shot? Try it. Seriously. I dare you. I double dare you.
Again . . . they make you fight on their terms . . . and honestly, if you want
to grapple, you still have to get close enough to grab them (and don't give me
some BS about grabbing the wrist . . . I know how fast a boxer can punch and
withdraw . . . I've tried it) . . . and you'd best hope they have poor aim.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
>
> It amuses me to find so many martial artists who say: yes, but boxer's
> don't kick, don't grapple. True. (Although I've known some boxers who
> were among the best headbutters and standup wrestlers you'd ever meet.)
> But shouldn't you - oh, mighty martial artist - be able to match them on
> their own turf? Match them, punch for punch, hand speed for hand speed?
> Match their endurance? Their power? Their ability to duck, slip, weave,
> and take a shot? Try it. Seriously. I dare you. I double dare you.
>
I have. It's tough. Never said it wasn't. BUT, you can learn hand speed,
power and timing from TKD also. Sure, most boxers would kill MA fools
because most MA fools are hobbist. BUT, I'd say most streetfighters would do
the same with no training. AND, if I took some guy who lifted weights in his
backyard and just slugged a punching bag 3 hours a day they'd do the same.
BUT, for speed, power and technique, I'd take Wing Chun over boxing any day
of they week if you are gonna spend the hour for hour training time of a
boxer. If you don't a agree, then I'm not sure why you are on RMA.. You
should be on rec sport boxing or something. Most boxers in gyms (like you
challenged me check out) are TOUGH!! Gritty, good fighters....But they are
like that because they take punches all the time, have no fear of getting hit
or fighting and are in good shape. Has little to do with technique. More to
do with attitude and training.
kfitzgerald
> I have.
I doubt it. I doubt that the same person who has just spent a few days
saying that boxers are nothing more than łroided out˛ łwhite trash˛ and
łnegroes˛ who slug one another for twelve rounds has ever done any serious
sparring in a boxing gym. You can to any boxing gym, pay your dues, put on
some gloves and get in the ring with another guy and smack yourselves
silly, but I mean actually sparring with timed rounds against somebody who
is gearing up for competition. About one person in a thousand can take
that kind of contact (I'm not one of them), which means that very few
martial artists can. They don't prepare you for knocks like that when
you're doing Sil Lum Tao or walking the circle.
> BUT, for speed, power and technique, I'd take Wing Chun over boxing any day
> of they week if you are gonna spend the hour for hour training time of a
> boxer. If you don't a agree, then I'm not sure why you are on RMA.. You
> should be on rec sport boxing or something.
I studied Wing Chun for a year with a good teacher. I still practice the
first form (the only one I learned). I would very much have liked to have
continued but circumstances wouldn't allow it - but I don't agree with
you. In fact, I strongly disagree with you. A person of the correct
temperament (and I want to stress that point - it's far from suitable for
many people) can, in my opinion, learn more about how to really fight in a
good boxing gym in six months than in years in most other martial arts -
it's the nature of the beast: they're interested in hitting while not
getting hit and that's about it. I'm on RMA because boxing is a martial
art. I find it amusing to find people who have never in their lives felt
real contact but who will stick up their noses and say, łah, but boxing is
only a sport˛ while doing sticky hands is real fighting.
> Most boxers in gyms (like you
> challenged me check out) are TOUGH!! Gritty, good fighters
I'm sorry - today they're good, tough fighters. Yesterday they were roided
out white trash with no skill. Evidentally there's something here that
I've misunderstood.
....But they are
> like that because they take punches all the time, have no fear of getting hit
> or fighting and are in good shape. Has little to do with technique. More to
> do with attitude and training.
Technique has everything to do with it. It takes a lot of practice to hit
that hard and in combination, and it takes a lot of practice to avoid
getting hit - the most crucial skill in boxing. Yes, boxers can take hits.
Ali took 440 punches from Joe Frazier in the Manila fight and won. But he
also slipped, ducked under, dodged, and blocked another 400 or so. But
boxers train to avoid getting hit, not with fantasy techniques like
snatching a punch out of the air with a crane block and then repulsing the
monkey or whatever, but in the simplest most effective ways possible.
Boxers are by far among the most scientific and technically minded of all
martial artists.
KF
Shaad M. Ahmad
>> BUT, for speed, power and technique, I'd take Wing Chun over boxing any day
>> of they week if you are gonna spend the hour for hour training time of a
>> boxer. If you don't a agree, then I'm not sure why you are on RMA.. You
>> should be on rec sport boxing or something.
Probably, but given that most people who train at WC don't even train
one-tenth as strenuously as most amateur/club boxers do, I'd wager my
money on the amateur/club boxer. And I say this as someone who used to box
(from eight to eighteen -- when I was growing up in Bangladesh, boxing
taught us effective self-defence; judo and karate still hadn't become
popular) but now does Wing Chun (I'm older, a graduate student, don't
have as much time as I would like to train/condition my body for boxing,
and prefer to come into lab sporting fewer bruises).
I am also a little curious as to why you seem eager to denigrate
boxing as not being a martial art; I do, from time to time, spar with
boxers as well as other martial artists, and find boxers to be among
the toughest to deal with. They can slip and weave and dodge strikes,
block hits with the forearms, take solid hits without being fazed and
strike back fast and with power.
Realize also that they have a different temperament than most
MA-hobbyists. Most (not all) MA-hobbyists want to see if they can get
their strikes in; the boxer wants to take you down. Like WC, they have
a small basic set of tools that they try to perfect through continuous
drills, but unlike most MA-hobbyists they get to test them out at full
power in the ring.
Let me echo K. Fitzgerald's and Sarah Kato's recommendations and
suggest that you actually go into a ring with an amateur/club boxer
and go a few rounds before dismissing the art.
Regards.
sh...@leland.stanford.edu - Shaad -
http://cmgm.stanford.edu/~ahmad/
the deviant biologist
"Get you facts first, then you can distort them as much as you please."
-- Mark Twain
Dave Murray
Magnulus wrote in message
<199809080133...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Boxing has limited techniques (true, they do know them well), and it only
has
>about one range of combat. It's techniques are designed for the ring, and
if
>they happen to work on the street, that's a coincidence.
Boxers have five attacks, jab, cross, hook, uppercut, and one illegal
technique of their choice (head-butt, elbow, etc.), no more limited than
Five Element Hsing-I (a non-sport/battlefield art). Mike Tyson got into
trouble when he tried to pick up a sixth (biting). Mike had Elbows, Evander
had head-butts, five techniques is all you get ;^))) Seriously, ring
fighters are usually athletes, many martial artists are not, me included.
That conditioning counts for a lot in real fights.
Regards and respect,
Dave Murray
kfitzgerald
magn...@aol.com (Magnulus) wrote:
> boxers are not training to go out on the street and defend themselves
with it.
Neither are most martial artists, frankly.
KF
kfitzgerald
<dlmu...@micro-net.com> wrote:
> Boxers have five attacks, jab, cross, hook, uppercut, and one illegal
> technique of their choice (head-butt, elbow, etc.)
Nicely put! I like that and if you don't mind I'm going to steal it.
> no more limited than
> Five Element Hsing-I (a non-sport/battlefield art). Mike Tyson got into
> trouble when he tried to pick up a sixth (biting). Mike had Elbows, Evander
> had head-butts, five techniques is all you get ;^))) Seriously, ring
> fighters are usually athletes, many martial artists are not, me included.
> That conditioning counts for a lot in real fights.
Good point. I should point out that I see all sorts of boxers working
headbutts against the bag. There are ways to creep them in to make it look
like an accident, so you get some boxers who are good headbutters. Some
are also very good stand-up wrestlers - clinching and holding is part of
the sport and some boxers are very, very good at it. Later in his career,
in the mid to late 70s, Ali, who fought in flurries and who usually wasn't
in the greatest shape for his fights (by then he hated the gym and he
hated roadwork especially) got very, very good at wrestling with his
opponent in the ring, holding their head, holding them under the arm,
tying up their hands. It became an important part of his strategy. I
wouldn't underrate boxers at such things.
KF
Daniel Brower
Leung went with him. I'd like to hear more about that.
Daniel Brower
dbro...@email.msn.com
Chowfun9 wrote in message
<199809031454...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>>
>>The man who directed "Game of Death" and "Enter the Dragon" saw Bruce
fight
>>many challenge matches, and in his opinion, thought no one alive could
have
>>beaten him at that time. See the documentary "Curse of the Dragon".
>>
>
>Can you please give a reference for this? From my readings I know of only
two
>challange matches. One when he was a young man in Hong Kong and Wong Shun
Leung
>went with him as his second, and the second famous one when he first came
to
>America which got him started on finding his own style. Other than that
there
>were tons of rumoured fights in which he supposedly won/lost depending on
what
>side of the argument your on.
>
>
> >And let us all remember, JKD is NOT a style, according to Lee himself,
even
>>though it has become that. It is a philosophy of hand-to-hand combat in
>>particular, and of life, to a lesser extent.
>>JKD has become what, IN MY OPINION, Lee never wanted it to be. The Tao of
JKD
>>is read like a bible and the thoughts and techniques that occupied Lee's
>>thoughts at the time of his death are frozen and read like gospel. This is
>>never what he intended. So maybe what you say about JKD today is a bit
true.
>>However, I think that the philosophies about fighting are sound.
>
>This I would agree with. It does seem that its become more of a religion
than a
>living philosophy
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>If you think your opponent is a fool,
>then you are a fool.
Daniel Brower
takes place in Hong Kong. In the documentary, James Coburn repeated Bruce
Lee's story about a man climbing over the wall and saying to Bruce, "Let's
see how good you really are." Bruce told Coburn, "I've never kicked anyone
so hard in my life."
Daniel Brower
dbro...@email.msn.com
Mike wrote in message <35EEB830...@myhouse.com>...
>Chowfun9 wrote:
>
>> >
>> >The man who directed "Game of Death" and "Enter the Dragon" saw Bruce
fight
>> >many challenge matches, and in his opinion, thought no one alive could
have
>> >beaten him at that time. See the documentary "Curse of the Dragon".
>> >
>>
>> Can you please give a reference for this? From my readings I know of only
two
>> challange matches. One when he was a young man in Hong Kong and Wong Shun
Leung
>> went with him as his second, and the second famous one when he first came
to
>> America which got him started on finding his own style. Other than that
there
>> were tons of rumoured fights in which he supposedly won/lost depending on
what
>> side of the argument your on.
>
>Again, I refer to the documentary "Curse of the Dragon". The director of
Enter the
>Dragon is on film saying that during filming, many of the extras would come
up and
>challenge Lee in a very formal way. Lee always beat them. This is an eye
witness
>account, and he recalls details of many of the fights.
>
>Hong Kong cinema put out a bounty on Lee: anyone who could beat him would
be
>garanteed a film contract. Subsequently, he was often challenged on the
street
>after this in Hong Kong. There were witnessess to these as well, in the
>documentary.
>
>The people who used to train with him in San Francisco tell of a person
climbing
>his fence into his backyard to challenge him. Bruce beat him silly for
>disrespecting his home.
>
>There are many well known people who can corraborate these stories. Rent
the
>video..
>
Sarah Koto
% In article <6svjh2$gn7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
%
% > BUT, for speed, power and technique, I'd take Wing Chun over boxing any day
% > of they week if you are gonna spend the hour for hour training time of a
% > boxer. If you don't a agree, then I'm not sure why you are on RMA.. You
% > should be on rec sport boxing or something.
Some of us think boxing is a martial art.
If sporty Judo, TKD, and Kendo can be martial arts, then so can boxing . . .
Why do people think that martial arts can only come from Asia?
% > Most boxers in gyms (like you
% > challenged me check out) are TOUGH!! Gritty, good fighters
%
% I'm sorry - today they're good, tough fighters. Yesterday they were roided
% out white trash with no skill. Evidentally there's something here that
% I've misunderstood.
It must be the 1% . . . not the other 99% who are all roided out white trash
and black men with acromegaly of the kneecaps.
% > .....But they are like that because they take punches all the time, have no fear
% > of getting hit or fighting and are in good shape. Has little to do with
% > technique. More to do with attitude and training.
Boxers are trained to take punches, yes . . . but they certainly don't want to
take punches.
Do you have any idea how hard a heavyweight can hit? I've held the heavy bag
on occasion. I'm a strong woman for my size, and in rather good shape . . . I
have biceps that have far better form than most men I know. I've also studied
Jujutsu and Kenjutsu since I was small. I was lifted a few times when the bag
was hit.
You /don't/ want to get hit by that . . . and neither do they. They can take
it, yes . . . but boxers who block with their heads with regularity can get
screwed up real, real fast. Head trauma isn't a joke.
% Technique has everything to do with it. It takes a lot of practice to hit
% that hard and in combination, and it takes a lot of practice to avoid
% getting hit - the most crucial skill in boxing. Yes, boxers can take hits.
% Ali took 440 punches from Joe Frazier in the Manila fight and won. But he
% also slipped, ducked under, dodged, and blocked another 400 or so. But
% boxers train to avoid getting hit, not with fantasy techniques like
% snatching a punch out of the air with a crane block and then repulsing the
% monkey or whatever, but in the simplest most effective ways possible.
Certainly.
If you ever wonder why all those boxers on TV never have losing records, it's
for a very simple reason. The ones with the losing records either got out of
the business on their feet . . . or on a stretcher.
Boxing is an art for those who are good at it. The ones who aren't and do it
anyway eat through straws and need bathroom assistance by their thirties.
And, no, I'm not trying to be humorous.
Magnulus
rules. Maybe you could apply the same thing to Judo as well. This is not to
say you can't use Boxing in a real fight, but it's just to say, that most
boxers are not training to go out on the street and defend themselves with it.
Sarah Koto
% rules. Maybe you could apply the same thing to Judo as well. This is not to
% say you can't use Boxing in a real fight, but it's just to say, that most
% boxers are not training to go out on the street and defend themselves with it.
Neither are most Judoka, TKD-ers, etc.
lraven
<6svjh2$gn7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> >
> > It amuses me to find so many martial artists who say: yes, but boxer's
> > don't kick, don't grapple. True. (Although I've known some boxers who
> > were among the best headbutters and standup wrestlers you'd ever meet.)
> > But shouldn't you - oh, mighty martial artist - be able to match them
on
> > their own turf? Match them, punch for punch, hand speed for hand
speed?
> > Match their endurance? Their power? Their ability to duck, slip, weave,
> > and take a shot? Try it. Seriously. I dare you. I double dare you.
> >
>
speed,
> power and timing from TKD also. Sure, most boxers would kill MA fools
> because most MA fools are hobbist. BUT, I'd say most streetfighters
would do
> the same with no training. AND, if I took some guy who lifted weights in
his
> backyard and just slugged a punching bag 3 hours a day they'd do the
same.
day
you
> challenged me check out) are TOUGH!! Gritty, good fighters....But they
are
> like that because they take punches all the time, have no fear of getting
hit
> or fighting and are in good shape. Has little to do with technique. More
to
> do with attitude and training.
There is a proper technique for boxing punches. Torso movement powers the
punches when done correctly, there's proper shoulder positioning, leg
positioning, hip rotation, etc. It is all based on effective body mechanics
proven over time in the ring. When you can have high purses riding on
whether you win or lose, you are going to use the most effective way of
punching that you can learn. Why do you think the early full-contact karate
people quickly ended up adapting boxing-style punches rather than sticking
with the karate-style ones they started with? Why do you think boxers and
their trainers have *not* switched over to karate-style punches if they
worked better in that situation? You could for example throw a reverse
punch from the hip without violating any boxing rules, but no boxer is
going to use such a punch.
Chris
Mike
> The story I remember about someone climing over the fence into his yard
> takes place in Hong Kong. In the documentary, James Coburn repeated Bruce
> Lee's story about a man climbing over the wall and saying to Bruce, "Let's
> see how good you really are." Bruce told Coburn, "I've never kicked anyone
> so hard in my life."
I may have recalled it in error, but the important thing is, Coburn said Lee
was *pissed* at this guy disrespecting his home and family.
Sarah Koto
% On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, kfitzgerald wrote:
%
% > Good point. I should point out that I see all sorts of boxers working
% > headbutts against the bag. There are ways to creep them in to make it look
% > like an accident, so you get some boxers who are good headbutters. Some
% > are also very good stand-up wrestlers - clinching and holding is part of
% > the sport and some boxers are very, very good at it. Later in his career,
% > in the mid to late 70s, Ali, who fought in flurries and who usually wasn't
% > in the greatest shape for his fights (by then he hated the gym and he
% > hated roadwork especially) got very, very good at wrestling with his
% > opponent in the ring, holding their head, holding them under the arm,
% > tying up their hands. It became an important part of his strategy. I
% > wouldn't underrate boxers at such things.
%
% Dan Inosanto spoke of Filipino boxers who came to America - when faced
% with the limiting rules of western boxing, they found ways to sneak in
% some illegal techniques. They would intentionally miss with the hook or
% the cross and catch their opponent with their elbow on the way by.
Blows often get below the belt or to the kidney or ear when the ref is looking
the other way . . . or a punch "slips" or a headbutt "accidentally" occurs.
These guys are fighting to win, not to be cute or even honorable.
My hubby, who is otherwise a very sweet and gentle man (he smiles just like
George Foreman in those muffler commercials), admits that when he got in the
ring that he'd sometimes "slip" or move forward "at the wrong time," as would
his opponents . . . even during sparring. It was an understood part of the
game to fight a little on the gray side of things. Now, people would get
upset if you did it with any frequency, but an occasional "mistake" was to be
expected (and even encouraged). That's why refs will let things like that go
by. Now, if it's obvious (Tyson), then they won't.
Magnulus
>Neither are most martial artists, frankly.
>
>KF
some are, most "think" they are.
Mike
> Wrong, wrong, wrong, as usual.
>SNIP<
You could have stopped here!
atla...@my-dejanews.com
gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> In article <199809080133...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> magn...@aol.com (Magnulus) wrote:
>
> > boxers are not training to go out on the street and defend themselves
> with it.
>
>
atla...@my-dejanews.com
raiko82nospa...@nospamathotmail.nospamatthiscom (Sarah Koto) wrote:
> In article <199809080133...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
magn...@aol.com (Magnulus) wrote:
> % rules. Maybe you could apply the same thing to Judo as well. This is not
to
> % say you can't use Boxing in a real fight, but it's just to say, that most
it.
>
> Neither are most Judoka, TKD-ers, etc.
>
ALL Judoka, TKD etc train with hand, feet, grappling and self-defense moves.
They may be sports, but they are comprehensive. There is more to fighting
than learning 5 punches and lifting weights.
kfitzgerald
> Maybe, but most do train for it. No boxers do.
You're accumulating an amazing record here. You're batting 1000. You're
always wrong.
Most people who practice martial arts are not training for self-defense.
The majority of practitioners of martial arts are children, or adult
hobbyists looking for some sport, recreation, social activity, or just
practicing out of interest. Self-defense may be a welcome byproduct, but
not many are really training for it. If they were, they'd change the way
that they train. Other may think that they're training for self-defense,
but they aren't.
Now, you have very confidently said that "no" boxers train for
self-defense. Not so. There are lots of people in boxing gyms looking to
learn to fight: there are half a dozen cops at the gym where I work out,
fed up with noncontact and point clubs and wanting to learn what it's like
to actual land a punch on something - anything - a heavy bag or a sparring
partner.
KF
Sarah Koto
% In article <6t2379$4elm$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
% raiko82nospa...@nospamathotmail.nospamatthiscom (Sarah Koto) wrote:
% > In article <199809080133...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
% magn...@aol.com (Magnulus) wrote:
% > % I don't think boxing is a martial art. It's a sport, and it has a lot of
% > % rules. Maybe you could apply the same thing to Judo as well. This is not
% to
% > % say you can't use Boxing in a real fight, but it's just to say, that most
% > % boxers are not training to go out on the street and defend themselves with
% it.
% >
% > Neither are most Judoka, TKD-ers, etc.
% >
%
% ALL Judoka, TKD etc train with hand, feet, grappling and self-defense moves.
% They may be sports, but they are comprehensive. There is more to fighting
% than learning 5 punches and lifting weights.
Yea . . . like running your mouth off and making unsubstantiated, sweeping
statements.
Learning the moves doesn't mean you're learning it FOR THE REASON of going out
into the streets and fighting. As Katie stated in another response to you . .
the self-defense-ness is a by-product . . . it's a by-product in boxing and
wrestling, too. (weren't you the one telling us how bad ass wrestlers are???)
In the sport arts, you're learning them primarily for exercise and for your
sport. Same thing with boxing. Same thing with wrestling. And if your
instructor/coach/trainer is telling you otherwise, then you're either NOT in
the sport, or he's doing you a major disservice.
And if you think all boxers do is learn 5 punches and lift weights, then you
really need to get to a gym and watch them train.
Sean J. Carey
and the ones I currently know (including casual friends I only meet/see at
tournaments, etc.) train specifically for self-defense.
Not only my own style, but across styles and 4 different states.
Sean
don griffen
dosent know enough to win fights in your opinion ,,,, do you really
think tkd people or judo people could DEFEND themselves better then big
george who is 50 or so years old. I think you better re think that big
daddy big georg would and coul;d spank most if not all in a street
fight... remember this in america and thats where we live, fighting
still consists of 90% of attacks with the fists , and all fighters and
people in general no enough to protect there groin from a kick or knee..
who could better defend against punches then a boxer----tkd and judo
people both do not practice against punches to the face and secondly a
takedown attempt is made very hard against a boxer/weightlifter because
of boxing balance and ring wrestling and if he lifts weights hes able to
push a person off and judo people dont practice takedowns against people
trying to take there head off....big george a powerlifting boxer who
weighs 270 good luck trying to kick or take him off his feet while he
dropping bombs on your head
atla...@my-dejanews.com
atla...@my-dejanews.com
gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> In article <6t529k$sss$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Maybe, but most do train for it. No boxers do.
>
> You're accumulating an amazing record here. You're batting 1000. You're
> always wrong.
>
> hobbyists looking for some sport, recreation, social activity, or just
> practicing out of interest. Self-defense may be a welcome byproduct, but
> not many are really training for it. If they were, they'd change the way
> that they train. Other may think that they're training for self-defense,
> but they aren't.
>
> Now, you have very confidently said that "no" boxers train for
> self-defense. Not so. There are lots of people in boxing gyms looking to
> learn to fight: there are half a dozen cops at the gym where I work out,
> fed up with noncontact and point clubs and wanting to learn what it's like
> to actual land a punch on something - anything - a heavy bag or a sparring
> partner.
>
definition is someone who boxes. Boxing is a sport. You train to win. Not to
streetfight. If someone adapts it, so be it. But a BOXER is a BOXER. Not a
streetfighter.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
A 200 pound wrestler would take him out in a matter of seconds. You just
don't understand the concept of fighting.
Stephen Havelka
: Nope, you can learn "boxing" technique for self-defense. BUT BOXER by
: definition is someone who boxes. Boxing is a sport. You train to win. Not to
: streetfight. If someone adapts it, so be it. But a BOXER is a BOXER. Not a
: streetfighter.
Not bad. 3 days for a thread before someone pulled out a definition.
About the same length of time before someone mentioned Bruce Lee. *gulp*
Here goes...
Ninjitsu is better than boxing!!
:)
--
Steve
as of august 6, this email address is linked to /dev/null
I may be reached at steve at yellow5 dot com
Mike
> In article <6t529k$sss$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Maybe, but most do train for it. No boxers do.
>
> You're accumulating an amazing record here. You're batting 1000. You're
> always wrong.
>
> Most people who practice martial arts are not training for self-defense.
> The majority of practitioners of martial arts are children, or adult
> hobbyists looking for some sport, recreation, social activity, or just
> practicing out of interest. Self-defense may be a welcome byproduct, but
> not many are really training for it. If they were, they'd change the way
> that they train. Other may think that they're training for self-defense,
> but they aren't.
Kaarina; (did I spell it right? Hope so)
I agree. I have trained or visited in a few different schools, and at least 75%
of the people there are there for fun or for an intrest in MA's. The other 20-25%
are there to train hard for competition, and a few (police officers, mostly) are
there to learn how to "whoop ass". They train pretty intensely.
kfitzgerald
> Nope, you can learn "boxing" technique for self-defense. BUT BOXER by
> definition is someone who boxes. Boxing is a sport. You train to win. Not to
> streetfight. If someone adapts it, so be it. But a BOXER is a BOXER. Not a
> streetfighter.
Just checked the two volume shorter OED and it gives on definition of box
as "fight with the fists", probably derived from the earlier Middle
English boxs meaning a "a slap on the ear or the side of the head."
Anyway, you're just playing semantic games. A good boxer can fight better
in real fight than most martial artists because he's accustomed to actual
contact, accustomed to hitting moving targets, evading real punches, etc.,
while many martial artists these days reach black belt without ever having
been hit hard and without ever having sparred with any appreciable level
of contact. In fact, I know black belts who have _never_ even punched a
target. That's right.Never hit a heavy bag. Never punched a focus mitt.
Never kicked a shield. Not even a makiwara.
KF
kfitzgerald
> I've seen them train. Not impressed.
I'm sorry, a couple of days ago you were experienced in sparring boxers
and you said that you were impressed and did respect them and their
toughness. You don't care about rational discussion. You just want to
win.
KF
Sarah Koto
% In article <6t7s8p$sua$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
%
%
% > I've seen them train. Not impressed.
%
% I'm sorry, a couple of days ago you were experienced in sparring boxers
% and you said that you were impressed and did respect them and their
% toughness. You don't care about rational discussion. You just want to
% win.
That's why I have him killfiled.
There's no point in bothering with him.
Of course, if he's anything like Liberator/Gichoke/Tyrone100 (you think it's
a coincidence that they all type remarkably similar?), he'll just change his
name to get around the killfile.
John Carlo
you dont have a concept on fighting ,,to make a statement like that is
plain stupid,,,,,,,,,it seems you think all wrestlers can beat all
boxers because in the ufc a couple of journymen boxers got tackled .
george is twice as big strong and nasty then those other guys. and a
hammer fist from george would take your head off.......atlas what style
do you take??????? and by the way george was a known street fighter
before he boxed, fact is that is why he started boxing because he could
kick ever ones ass on the street. also your original post you said judo
and tkd were more practical for street fighting and boxing wasnt . well
ANSWER THE QUESTION CAN GEORGE DEFEND HIMSELF OR NO!
kfitzgerald
raiko82nospa...@nospamathotmail.nospamatthiscom (Sarah Koto)
wrote:
> Of course, if he's anything like Liberator/Gichoke/Tyrone100 (you think it's
> a coincidence that they all type remarkably similar?), he'll just change his
> name to get around the killfile.
I'm pretty sure that Libby and Gichoke aren't the same person unless we're
dealing with some sort of bipolar disorder. Gichoke is a Gracie booster
and Liberator is a Gracie hater.
In my opinion, they type and spell the same because all of them are
basically illiterate.
KF
atla...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Ninjitsu is better than boxing!!
>
I'll buy that. Plus you get cool tools and weapons. Not to mention those
nutty tabby boots.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
Yes he can defend himself. Due to NATURAL TALENT, STRENGTH and SIZE. Probably
would have been able to without boxing. Yes, I still believe a wrestler could
take him down no prob. I'm not talking about a standing clinch for 5 minutes,
I'm talking about a calculated shoot at the legs...he'd go down. I've seen
bigger, faster opponents go down. Don't think because someone is a boxing
legend that they can't be sat on their butt.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
gbr...@netcom.ca (kfitzgerald) wrote:
> In article <6t7s8p$sua$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > I've seen them train. Not impressed.
>
>
I have seen them. They are tough. I do respect them. I am not impressed with
their techniques or their training methods. I think their techniques are not
that hot and they train very hard and have to much full contact that causes
them to get beat up. They train to get hit by other guys in a ring for money.
That, while being tough, does not impress me.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
raiko82nospa...@nospamathotmail.nospamatthiscom (Sarah Koto) wrote:
wrote:
> %
> %
> % > I've seen them train. Not impressed.
> %
> % I'm sorry, a couple of days ago you were experienced in sparring boxers
> % and you said that you were impressed and did respect them and their
> % toughness. You don't care about rational discussion. You just want to
> % win.
>
> That's why I have him killfiled.
>
> There's no point in bothering with him.
>
> a coincidence that they all type remarkably similar?), he'll just change his
> name to get around the killfile.
>
Trust me, I'm none of those fools. I don't study TKD like Liberator. I can
spell, unlike Gichoke and I don't even know who Tyrone100 is. People in the
real world are going to have opinions drastically different than yours. You
can't just go around putting people in "killfiles" to avoid them. Who wants
homogenous discussion anyway where everyone has one opinion and agrees on
everything? Oh well. Sorry I think Boxing is sub-par when compared to Wing-
Chun.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
Yeah, I see your point. But that doesn't mean the techniques are better. I
agree though. I think some fools on here have no realistic concept of
training. Everyone bashes the Gracies for realistic training and mixed
styles competitions. Last time I checked, the asian styles they study were
invented for the express purpose of combat. To kill. To fight. The
Okinawans and the monks of Shaolin did not just do forms everyday and preach
non-violence and refuse to test their techniques. These people trained with
the knowledge they were going to be attacked often, therefore they had to
make sure it worked to live. Nowadays, people just go to the dojo, learn a
style that hasn't been realistically tested in combat in 150 years and think
it will automatically work for them. There is no viable refinment in the MA
today. When something is refined, it is usually theoretical or esoteric, ie.
a master thinking of something that sounds like it would work or be an
improvement and putting it on paper to teach. People are afraid to challenge
tradition, even though the style and techniques were constantly refined when
they were invented and in use. Now, if you suggest something is outdated or
non-aplicable, people scoff and get offended. Why do you think there were
over 300 styles of Kung-Fu in China? Because once one was figured out or
defeated, another one had to be created and some styles were created for the
purpose of defeating another style. So if you practice Kung-Fu X, you might
be practicing something that was held in cryogenic freeze for 300 years
because a few people saved the forms while in combat it was deafeated by
Kung-Fu Y. Realistic training is good. But not everyone can, will or wants
to train like a shaolin monk.
don griffen
good wrestler but any or all wrestlers no way also ,, do not think if
big george fought one of your wrestling stars he couldnt push one off
and knock his head off,, when some one shoots they better be real real
good because if your not you will get hammered after you miss when the
guy sprawls and holds you down and cracks your head-------by the way i
believe Bjj is the best art when combined with a mau tai or boxing
standup / i aslo think boxer/ wrestler/ submission fighter great stuff
shoot fighting also---------but to think a 220+ fast strong boxer who
knows basic wrestling counters , sprawl,spin 1/4 nelson, cross face,
pancake basic rolls and escapes from the ground standups etc etc cant
hold off and bang the shit out of wrestler better wake up your living in
a dream world. all fights do not start outside shooting range but nose
to nose and it that case the wreslter will get hit on the way in,,
because a good boxer is going to crack the wrestler while he is talking
shit
lazz45 chill
Eric Berge
In Article<gbroad-1009...@lon-on1-22.netcom.ca>, <gbr...@netcom.ca>
writes:
> In article <6t7rl5$s0s$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, atla...@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
>
> > Nope, you can learn "boxing" technique for self-defense. BUT BOXER by
> > definition is someone who boxes. Boxing is a sport. You train to win.
> > Not to streetfight. If someone adapts it, so be it. But a BOXER is a
> > BOXER. Not a streetfighter.
>
> Just checked the two volume shorter OED and it gives on definition of box
> as "fight with the fists", probably derived from the earlier Middle
> English boxs meaning a "a slap on the ear or the side of the head."
Just for fun, I popped in my CD version of the same and looked up the verb,
"box":
box (____), v.2
[f. box n.3 According to Mätzner, Franck, Kluge, etc., the mod.Du. boxen, LG.
baksen, baaksen, Ger. baxen, boxen, Da. baxe, Sw. baxas, boxas, are all from
English.]
1. trans. orig. To beat, thrash; later, to strike with the fist, to cuff, to
buffet: now usually, to strike (the cheek, ear, etc.) with the hand.
1519 W. Horman Vulg. 137 §17 He was boxed out of the place: as he had been a
started hare.
1589 R. Harvey Pl. Perc. 12 To boxe a shadowe, and beate their knuckels
against a bare wall.
1601 Sir J. Ogle in Sir F. Vere Comm. 150 He..must sit with his hands bound,
whilest boyes and devils come and box him about the ears.
a1661 B. Holyday Juvenal 206 Xerxes commanded them to give the sea 300 strokes
with a scourge, and to box it.
1666 Pepys Diary 20 Jan., I become angry, and boxed my boy..that I do hurt my
thumb.
1704 Steele Lying Lover ii. (1747) 31 Lettice–I’ll down right box you–Hold
your Tongue, Gipsy.
1783 Ainsworth Lat. Dict. (Morell) i. s.v. Ear, Boxed on the ear, colaphis,
vel alapis, cæsus.
1837 Disraeli Venetia i. ix. (1871) 42 Attempting to box her son’s ears.
1876 Black Madcap V. i. 3 I’ve a good mind to box your ears.
fig.
1674 R. Godfrey Inj. & Ab. Physic 29 To have our ears weekly boxt about with
the Philosophers-stone, Horizontal Gold and Noble Mercury.
2. a. intr. To fight with fists; now mostly of purely athletic practice with
boxing-gloves.
1567 J. Studley Seneca’s Hippolytus (1581) 64 b, The naked Fist found out To
scratch and cuffe, to boxe and bum.
1682 Dryden Epil. Banks’ Unhappy Fav. 33 ’Tis just like children when they box
with pillows.
1765 Tucker Lt. Nat. II. 170 Two men boxing together in the next street.
1790 Cowper Odyss. viii. 124 To leap, to box, to wrestle and to run.
1819 Byron Juan ii. xcii, For sometimes we must box without the muffle.
a1859 De Quincey Autobiog. Sk. Wks. I. 36 To box..was in those days a mere
necessity of schoolboy life at public schools.
b. to box it out, etc.: cf. to fight it out.
1697 Collier Ess. Mor. Subj. i. (1709) 132 Clowns may Box if off, and be
quiet.
1702 De Foe More Reform. Pref. 2 The Englishmen fairly Box it out.
c. to box on: to continue boxing or fighting; also fig. colloq.
1919 Downing Digger Dial. 13 Box on, (1) continue; (2) fight.
1954 F. C. Avis Boxing Ref. Dict. 14 Box, an order of the referee to the
contestants to carry on with the contest; also..Box On.
1959 ‘D. Buckingham’ Wind Tunnel vii. 61, I would face her with Paddy’s story
and then ‘box-on’ from there.
1965 New Statesman 7 May 725/1 However clever and facile I was, I lost friends
and failed to influence people. But I boxed on.
d. to box clever: to behave cleverly; to use one’s wits. slang.
1936 J. Curtis Gilt Kid vi. 62 He knew, however, that he would have to box
clever.
1950 A. Baron There’s no Home 210 If you box clever and keep your mouth
shut,..you ought to be able to count on a suspended sentence.
3. a. trans. To fight (another) with fists.
1694 R. L’Estrange Fables (1699) 343 The Ass..look’d on, till they had box’d
themselves a weary.
1749 Fielding Tom Jones xvi. ii, Box thee for a bellyfull.
1803 Bristed Pedest. Tour I. 359 If they were to..box each other.
b. colloq. or dial. phr. to box Harry: to go without a meal; to have a poor
meal so as to save expense.
1823 ‘Jon Bee’ Slang 16 Box-harry, to go without victuals. Confined truants,
at school, without fire, fought or boxed an old figure nicknamed ‘Harry’,
which hung up in their prison–to keep heat.
1862 G. Borrow Wild Wales II. i. 3 Those [commercial travellers] whose
employers were in a small way of business, or allowed them insufficient
salaries, frequently used to ‘box Harry’, that is have a beef-steak, or
mutton-chop, or perhaps bacon and eggs..instead of the regular dinner of a
commercial gentleman.
Ibid. Having made arrangements for ‘boxing Harry’ I went into the tap room.
1902 N. & Q. 7 June 450/1 An old woman..was telling me that she had only by
her a very poor supply of seed [potatoes], and finished up by ejaculating,
‘Never mind, I must box Harry...’ When questioned..she said..she must needs do
without.
Ibid. 5 July 13/2 ‘Box Harry’. This is well known in the Northern Counties in
the sense of doing things ‘on the cheap’... In Mr. Page’s instance the woman
seems to have meant she must beg some potatoes to make up the deficiency.
4. transf. To strike with the fore-paw.
a1711 Grew (J.) A leopard is like a cat; he boxes with his forefeet, as a cat
doth her kitlins.
kfitzgerald
laz...@webtv.net (lazz45 chill) wrote:
> you do not know shit asshole
I wish that people like you would give some indication of who they're
talking to. Lots of people have participated in this thread. Who doesn't
know "zeeb" as we say around here these days. Atlas? (I'll go with that.)
Gichoke? Me? Don?
Don's a bit rough around the edges but I can assure you that he's about
the only real fighter on this group.
KF
atla...@my-dejanews.com
I guess. I doubt it though. If they are nose to nose the wrestler would
probably just take him down. About a boxer knowing basic wrestling
counters..you can't just learn them, you have to practice all the time. A
guy that boxes all the time and wrestles all the time...maybe. But I don't
know to many people who do both.
Magnulus
>in real fight than most martial artists because he's accustomed to actual
>contact, accustomed to hitting moving targets, evading real punches, etc.,
>while many martial artists these days reach black belt without ever having
>been hit hard and without ever having sparred with any appreciable level
>of contact. In fact, I know black belts who have _never_ even punched a
>target. That's right.Never hit a heavy bag. Never punched a focus mitt.
>Never kicked a shield. Not even a makiwara.
Why is getting hit hard necessary to learn self-defense? Frequent injuries can
shorten your training career by 100 percent.
I will agree though, that punching a target is important. I myself go for
paper hitting, or focus mitt work.
kfitzgerald
magn...@aol.com (Magnulus) wrote:
> Why is getting hit hard necessary to learn self-defense? Frequent
injuries can
> shorten your training career by 100 percent.
Funny, I made this exact point in another thread just yesterday.
I don't think it's necessary for self-defense and in fact I think that
heavy contact sparring isn't very bright - I know and admire many boxers
but they're killing themselves slowly in my opinion.
So I put that badly. What I mean is that people who have actually
experienced heavy contact have an edge in real fighting or people who have
not. I really want to do some serious research some day into the ways in
which athletes deal learn to cope with pain - it's not something that's
easy to do without experience. I've done work with children in chemo and
we teach them a variety of methods of coping but they also develop their
own and they're remarkable. But it takes experience. A shot to the belly
that would drop a person who has never been hit before would feel like a
friendly poke to an experienced boxer, for instance. Ali used to make it
part of his training to let his bigger sparring partners bang away at his
belly like a bongo drummer for two or three minutes at a time.
> I will agree though, that punching a target is important.
Me too.
KF
RO...@kandm.com
atla...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <6t8l4h$ga68$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> raiko82nospa...@nospamathotmail.nospamatthiscom (Sarah Koto) wrote:
> wrote:
> > %
> > %
> > % > I've seen them train. Not impressed.
> > %
> > % I'm sorry, a couple of days ago you were experienced in sparring boxers
> > % and you said that you were impressed and did respect them and their
> > % toughness. You don't care about rational discussion. You just want to
> > % win.
> >
> > That's why I have him killfiled.
> >
> > There's no point in bothering with him.
> >
> > Of course, if he's anything like Liberator/Gichoke/Tyrone100 (you think it's
> > a coincidence that they all type remarkably similar?), he'll just change his
> > name to get around the killfile.
> >
>
> Trust me, I'm none of those fools. I don't study TKD like Liberator. I can
> spell, unlike Gichoke and I don't even know who Tyrone100 is. People in the
> real world are going to have opinions drastically different than yours. You
> can't just go around putting people in "killfiles" to avoid them. Who wants
> homogenous discussion anyway where everyone has one opinion and agrees on
> everything? Oh well. Sorry I think Boxing is sub-par when compared to Wing-
> Chun.
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
you will be in my kill file. Have a good day.
atla...@my-dejanews.com
I'll respond to the people out there who can recognize you computer
foolishness by the way you quote messages. Took me 5 minutes to find out
where the hell your response was you piece of shit.
Bill Pringle
>
>Why is getting hit hard necessary to learn self-defense? Frequent injuries can
>shorten your training career by 100 percent.
Better to experience a few hard hits in a controlled environment, so you
know what to expect. A hard hit in a real fight can cause you to panic
and freeze.
Just my two cents worth.
Bill Pringle
Magnulus
>Better to experience a few hard hits in a controlled environment, so you
>know what to expect. A hard hit in a real fight can cause you to panic
>and freeze.
I suppose it depends on your definition of "hard hitting". Certainly, some
contact in sparring can be beneficial, but to get pummelled week after week
will hurt your body. Working with the medicine ball, etc., are all ways to
learn to get over a fear of being hit, without having to get injured weekly.
Storm
learning to take some punishment may decrease your life span by a year or
two but it helps.
If you think training is rough now, try going through some of the training
techniques of other martial arts from feudal Japan, or ancient China. They
were ruthless back then.
Magnulus wrote in message
<199809151707...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Magnulus
>techniques of other martial arts from feudal Japan, or ancient China. They
>were ruthless back then.
>
>
Yes, yes. They also did the "iron palm", and incessent hitting of makiwara
back then. But how many of us really need severely calloussed hands, and nerve
damage, especially since most of us type on computers.
Really, times change. Your chances of being in a fight do NOT warrant the risk
of severe injury or bodily disfigurement. There is no reason why you cannot
practice self-defense and martial arts without getting severely pummelled.