DOG EATERS OF PEKITI-TIRSIA
JeffSensei
i've read their posts...and they seem like they mean business...there is only
one way to resolve this...perhaps Tuhon Bill McGrath will face their
challenges?
i never realized that there could be so much infighting between the various
factions...well, the dog brothers and Tuhon Bill McGrath may have their hands
full
Jeff
Paul Erickson
And who are you exactly?
_____________________________
Paul R. Erickson
ARCLIGHT ENTERPRISES INC(DE)
Texas MBA 1998, Marketing
GBC Sports Chair
"A Spartan never asks how many of the enemy there are, only where they are."
-Charlie Beckwith, SFOD-D
Paul Erickson
On 17 Jan 1998 06:12:16 GMT, jeffs...@aol.com (JeffSensei) wrote:
i never realized that there could be so much infighting between the
various
>factions...well, the dog brothers and Tuhon Bill McGrath may have their hands
>full
\
And you are?
James Welsh
Paul Erickson wrote:
>
> On 17 Jan 1998 06:12:16 GMT, jeffs...@aol.com (JeffSensei) wrote:
>
> i never realized that there could be so much infighting between the
> various
> >factions...well, the dog brothers and Tuhon Bill McGrath may have their hands
> >full
Ahh! I missed a Dog Brothers thread. What's going on?
-s-
Paul Erickson
On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:24:54 -0500, James Welsh <b.w...@mailcity.com>
wrote:
>
>Ahh! I missed a Dog Brothers thread. What's going on?
>
> -s-
The same
WongLeeT/JakStaples/BuddyCast/Orlandob/Mintski/DocVincent/CK26M idiot
is spamming trying to stir up trouble again....
Any real news about the Dog Bros. you want to know, talk to Hound Dog
(Alvis Solis) at AWS...@aol.com.
The next Gathering is in May I believe.
Peter Sampogna
JeffSensei wrote:
>
> i've read their posts...and they seem like they mean business...there is only
> one way to resolve this...perhaps Tuhon Bill McGrath will face their
> challenges?
>
> factions...well, the dog brothers and Tuhon Bill McGrath may have their hands
> full
>
Having a childhood dream of being a detective I started searching out
the confrontation in Pekiti Tersia/Sayok. Let it be known I am a student
of Amante P Marinas and have never met, or spoken to either groups. Well
here goes
From: JeffSensei <JeffS...@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:24:13 EST
Subject: eskrima: Re: Chris Sayoc
Tuhon Chris Sayoc is currently teaching a progressive series of Knife
seminars
here in the NY/Long island area...he teaches a unique series of
transitional
flow drills and vital templates...if you are serious about studying the
art of
the Filipino knife, it's really a good idea to seek out more information
regarding his teaching schedule.
Respectfully, Jeff Chung
Jeff works out with Chris Sayok (I called the center and confirmed this)
From: JeffSensei <JeffS...@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:51:22 EST
Subject: eskrima: Re: Comments about Chris Sayoc?
Just my own .02 cents on this particular issue...one of my training
partners
from CT...was speaking with Dan Inosanto a few weeks ago in Queens,
NY...Dan
reportedly told him that Tuhon Chris Sayoc was the "heir apparent" to
the
Pekiti Tirsia system...my friends and myself were really surprised at
that
never having heard of that before...
Respectfully, Jeff Chung
Then this post came so Jeff do you know him or not?
Then some interesting posts on Rec Martial arts
Subject:
Re: DOG EATERS OF PEKITI-TIRSIA
Date:
17 Jan 1998 06:12:16 GMT
From:
jeffs...@aol.com (JeffSensei)
Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups:
rec.martial-arts
i've read their posts...and they seem like they mean business...there is
only
one way to resolve this...perhaps Tuhon Bill McGrath will face their
challenges?
i never realized that there could be so much infighting between the
various
factions...well, the dog brothers and Tuhon Bill McGrath may have their
hands
full
Jeff
Subject:
DOG EATERS of PEKITI-TIRSIA
Date:
16 Jan 1998 18:13:40 GMT
From:
steel...@aol.com (SteelPanda)
Organization:
AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups:
rec.martial-arts
hi everyone,
Have you read the e-mail from the "DOG EATERS" of Pekiti-Tirsia? They
gave alot
of information on the Pekiti-Tirsia system. It seems that the way Pekiti
FMA's
are training here is not making the satisfactory list. The "DOG EATERS"
are
saying that Tuhon William McGrath does not even know 10% of the system
and has
never even been to the Philippines among other things. And that the only
heir
to the Pekiti system is Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje's 7 year old
son. The system is going into a structural over haul and it seems like
they
mean business. If you want to read what the "DOG EATERS" wrote, just
e-mail me.
This is why I love the Filipino Arts, just when you think you know
something
-(BOOM!!!) you have to start all over.
Mabuhay,
Chas (Steel...@aol.com)
Whoa seems like a conspiracy I read rec martial arts daily steelpandas
was the first link sent.
Are you guys one and the same? AOL allows for such anominity 5 possible
screennames at once that can be
changed as much as you like!!!
Now the other side
From: "William McGrath" <PEKITI...@classic.msn.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 98 07:46:16 UT
Subject: eskrima: SAYOC, PINOY BOW, PEKITI SEMINARS
FROM:TUHON BILL MCGRATH
PRESIDENT, PEKITI-TIRSIA INTERANTIONAL
In answer to the two digest members who asked about: 1.Chris Sayoc, 2.
Filipino bows.
Chris Sayoc began training in Pekiti-Tirsia under Grand Master Gaje when
he
moved the school to the Philippine Consulate in New York City in the
summer of
1976. When the weather grew too cold to train in the Consulate's
rooftop
palota (handball) court, we moved to a Tae Kwon Do school that his
father was
the financial backer of in Jamaica, NY.
We saw Chris only infrequently after about 1980-81 as he went to study
Doce
Pares at that time.
I have had students attend my seminars who have also attended Chris' and
he
seems to be teaching a mixture of Pekiti-Tirsia basics and Doce Pares in
his
classes.
The last time I saw Chris was about 1991 or so. He invited me down to
his
apartment in Jersey to see his students.
While they did only Doce Pares forms but no Pekiti-Tirsia while I was
there,
Chris did show me an interesting project he was working on. He showed
me a
book with several Abcedarios from several different instructors of FMA.
He
was going to every old Eskrimador he could find and asking them to put
on
paper their basic attacks (whether 12 or 5 or 7). It looked like an
interesting idea. Chris said he would publish it as a book when he was
finished.
Chris sends me his seminar flyers on a regular basis so I can see he has
his
tongue planted firmly in cheek when it comes to advertising the origins
of
what he teaches. If however, you can take what he says with a large
grain of
salt and focus on what he teaches, you should get a good basic
introduction to
two good systems (Pekiti-Tirsia and Doce Pares).
Bill McGrath seems forced to defend his title of Tuhon in a public forum
and so does so, perhaps belittling Chris Sayok. Then the rebuttle:
Subject:
Re: PTK: SAYOC, PINOY BOW, PEKITI SEMINARS
Date:
Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:49:25 EST
From:
KNIFE INFO <KNIF...@aol.com>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
To:
Richar...@gems2.gov.bc.ca, tel...@cs.pdx.edu,
asr...@erols.com,
tom-a...@hotmail.com, mcb...@erols.com,
vmrs...@sprintmail.com,
kf...@ns.net, gpe...@oio.net, tval...@patriot.net,
stu...@iglobal.net,
baka...@pipeline.com, petesa...@earthlink.net,
craf...@dogbrothers.com, lo...@cecm.sfu.ca, Cpl...@aol.com
I received this email from Tony Sayoc.
Hope it clears up any misconceptions about what Tuhon Chris Sayoc is all
about. I am but one of many here on the list who have seen the knife
series
which Tuhon Sayoc is teaching and I'd have to say that it is far from
being a
"basic" hybrid of Doce Pares and Pekiti-Tirsia. Some may disagree, but
I have
not seen any evidence to the contrary having seen many practitioners of
both
systems, including Diony Canete and Dong Cuesta. In fact at a WEKAF
tournament
three years ago, they graciously allowed his students to demonstrate the
first
series of knife tapping taught by Tuhon Chris Sayoc.
Maraming Salamat,
RKayanan
<<In response to Billy Mcgrath’s post :
The Sayoc’s meaning Butch, Deanne, Chris, Mike, Cindy, Tony, and
Lani had
all began training in Pekiti-Tirsia Arnis at the same time in 1976.
Under the
direct training of Master Leo T. Gaje. Jr..The Pekiti-Tirsia senior
student's
were Frank Ortega, Greg Alland, Edgar Atienza, and Phillip Carreon.
Since
1972, The Sayoc’s have been training formally in Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan,
Judo,
and Boxing not including our family system and many other Filipino Arts.
We
all have black belts in TKD and Chris and Mike were avid tournament
participants with some 200+ 1st place trophies. Our father Baltazar Z.
Sayoc.
Sr. loves all martial arts as a practitioner, an observer and a teacher.
He
enjoyed hosting martial artists from all over the world , whenever he
would
hear of a newcomer, he was always there to lend them a hand and
encourage them
to teach their arts. Our doors were always open to fellow martial
artists.
Baltazar Z. Sayoc, Sr. was not a financial backer, he is a martial
artist. He
opened a formal Martial Arts school in Jamaica, Queens on August 1972.
It was
then just called "Karate school", the names changed until 1978. It was
called
the Pekiti-Tirsia International Schools for Arnis, Inc. my brother Chris
was
the president and Master instructor chosen by Master Leo T. Gaje, Jr..
All of
our training was done either at our school or in our backyard where most
of
the private lessons were held.
During our Pekiti-Tirsia training, it was clearly known that Chris
was
the heir apparent to the Pekiti-Tirsia system, this was even announced
at many
seminars and events that have been recorded. It was Chris and Mike who
traveled with Master Gaje to all of the seminars and demonstrations. At
the
Palarong in 1978 where Chris won 1st place, it was Chris’ students (over
25)
that participated with the exception of 6-8 students of Master Gaje
including
Greg Alland, Tom Bisio, Jim Curtin, Erwin Ballarta, Larry, and Billy.
Master
Greg Alland is giving out that taped event for free.
In the thousands of hours of training footage shot , we are the
only ones
who can say anything about Sayoc training unless you lived with us.
Chris and
Mike were doing knife demonstrations long before their Pekiti-Tirsia
training
and if you look at old footage, you can clearly see and date when Master
Gaje
started teaching knife tapping, and guess who was his assistant and
demonstration partner, right Chris Sayoc. So where does the core
Pekiti-Tirsia
knife work come from? Did you know that Chris was the representative
that
Master Gaje used to show the others Filipino masters such as Master
Amante
Mariñas and Master Remy Presas his latest techniques? And the Sayoc’s
often
performed and demonstrated for and with Master Presas at his
demonstrations.
Now we all know that Chris is also ranked by Master Presas and he is
also
ranked by the Doce Pares among many others, Just a note, my brother
Chris
loves all the different systems and is ranked by many of them, He has
respectfully declined to become successor to many systems including the
Pekiti-Tirsia system because of the politics and because we have our
own. Ours
is not a hybrid or a good basic introduction to two systems, It’s just
plain
Sayoc material.
And Chris did show Billy a book of several Abecedarios, but what
Chris
doesn’t tell anyone, those old Filipino Masters are his relatives. Now,
Billy
makes a note that Chris went to study Doce Pares in 1980-1981. Wouldn't
that
be an observation that a Doce Paers practitioner could answer? A lot was
happening during this time, That was about the time Master Leo had
challenged
the Cañetes specifically Grand Master Cacoy Cañete, this challenge was
to take
place at our school in Queens, NY., The Canetes travelled from the
Philippines
at their expense and showed up with Cocoy Cañete, Dong Cuesta, Bonifacio
"Loloy" Uy, Dr. TabuTabu, and others, they were fresh off the plane and
they
were looking for Master Gaje and his Pekiti-Tirsia team. Well guess who
was
there to stand up for Pekiti-Tirsia, yes you got it... Chris Sayoc.
Though
there was no fight, the Cañetes put on a magnificent show. And Chris did
tell
us that the Cañetes especially Cacoy would have done some damage. The
Cañetes
went to enjoy a NY tour and Dong Cuesta decided to stay in the states
and
eventually take over Chris’ Jersey City branch, they have been
"brothers" ever
since.
Our family relocated to Florida in 1980, Chris stayed and ran the
schools
in NY,in 1981 he changed the name of the school to the Sayoc
International
schools for Kali and since then has taught only the Sayoc Fighting
system
which we now call Sayoc Kali. Chris is active in the martial arts
seminars
with two of his six children. He is coming out with a series of books
and
video tapes. We are active in Florida and our father Baltazar is
retired and
living in the Philippines. We never make comment’s on anyone except our
own,
do some research and cross reference your information well. Here are
some
leads, both our maternal and paternal grand parents were military,
General
Burgos Topacio Sayoc, also a surgeon , General Francisco Castaneda,
superintendent of the Philippine Nautical School for over 30 years. And
it
goes back quite a bit with very interesting material.
This is by no means a detailed background, it is just to respond to
Billy’s post. We know about many events regarding the Pekiti-Tirsia
system to
which we were present. This is about brotherhood, and truth and none of
us
would ever question our seniors or break loyalty and trust over money.
Have a
nice day!
Regards,
Tony Sayoc>>
This letter is sent by someone anonomous to the group. Why? Are these
posts are sent from the same person!! The veterans of Rec Martail arts
are well aware of the flaming posts sent by some 16yearolds that pissed
off a number of people. All from AOL gotta love hiding. Then we had
Philip Gelinas write this;
From: Philip Gelinas <kenb...@dsuper.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 23:59:12 -0400
Subject: eskrima: Chris Sayoc
In the early days of Pekiti Tirsia on the east coast, Chris Sayoc and
his father Bo were both involved with Tuhon Gaje. I heard that Chris
Sayoc was being touted for this position, though at Tuhon Gaje's age
(quite young at that time) a successor was more of an idea than a plan.
Two things seemed to change this situation.
The first was a sense in Pekiti Tirsia that the Sayoc's wanted to go
their own way. They participated in the events around NYC in the early
80's when I started, but there was always a feeling of an
us-against-them attitude. It was as if you were not just fighting
another fighter but their whole school. This was inside our family?
The second was the advent of exellent american students coming up such
as Tom Bisio ( winner of the instructors division at the NARAPHIL
championships in Cebu, 1979, after only three years training)and William
McGrath (promoted recently to Tuhon by Grand Tuhon Gaje),as well as many
others such as Erwin Ballarta from Chicago. Eric Knaus, Top Dog in the
Dog Brothers was also in this time period, but I am not sure if he was a
student of Tom Bisio only or also a student of Tuhon Gaje as well.
Chris Sayoc was pretty well out of the mainstream Pekiti Tirsia training
by 1982 when Tuhon gaje had moved to Big Spring, Texas.
This is just to give a historical perspective, it is in no way an
assessment of Chris Sayoc's skill (or training) which I hear is
considerable.
Let us remember the "Heir Apparent" is not the "Heir, just the one we
all thought was going to be.
Philip Gelinas
Sled Dog
Everyone reading this may now draw their own conclusions about what and
where
Now the bigger issue at hand, deception! It is obvious that several
posts were made to;
A Gain Noteriety
B Sell videos
C Increase Seminar Turnout
D Slant Another Martial Artist
Now I know a number of martial artists that I love to talk to, and there
are some I cannot stand. Ususally we all stay in groups and stay away
from those who we don’t like. I think we need a vote to oust those who
want to brawl and use this discussion group for something other then it
was intended for. If majority of the group disagrees with me then please
unsubscribe me from this group.
Pete Sampogna
Chas
My e-mail has been overflowing with comments relating to "Chas" from
aol.com. That is not me, I am not he.
I have no knowlege of the controversy between whomever and whomever
else.
I have a controversy of mine own right now and do not need this
aggravation.
Chas Clements
Silat Kilap Betawi Thoaurs
Paul Erickson
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:16:09 -0700, Chas <gryp...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
That "dog eaters" reply really didn't read like your style...
More like our favorite AOL kiddie's style in fact. The little jerk
loves to stir up trouble I guess. You can barely trust an AOL message
in this NG anymore unfortunately.. especially a lot of the ones about
"XXXX School or style in XXX, XXX (city, state)?". He keeps the info
received in the replies as factual ammo for him to use in future
fabrications.. kinda smart actually. But the mark of a real piece of
garbage....
Temujin
Chas wrote:
>
> My e-mail has been overflowing with comments relating to "Chas" from
> aol.com. That is not me, I am not he.
> I have no knowlege of the controversy between whomever and whomever
> else.
> I have a controversy of mine own right now and do not need this
> aggravation.
> Chas Clements
> Silat Kilap Betawi Thoaurs
For those of you how are interested in the'Dog Eaters' and the dispute
with William McGrath, write to <steel...@aol.com>
Lazy readers saw the signature: Chas(steel...@aol.com) and assumed
that they could write to a frequent poster on this ng - even though our
frequent poster is involved with the art of Kun Tao Silat and not the
FMAs.
Temujin