Aikido style question: Kokikai vs. Aikikai?
Mike Hamilton
I'm (finally) beginning to train regularly in Aikido.
As it turns out I've started in a Kokikai dojo. But,
other styles are available, eg. Aikikia (ASU and USAF)
and Ki Society here in Seattle. So, would someone
who has an idea of what the differences between these
styles are please voice some information and opinions?
I've read the FAQ, which seems to have limited info
concerning Kokikai. I'm especially interested to hear
opinions from those who have trained in more than one
Aikido style.
Thanks for the info.
Mike
DBLKU
both. nothing mystical, just that it's so big no one thing could possess
it. only you can discover "the right way" to do a technique (or life for
that matter), instructors and styles only give you the opportunity to
discover it for yourself. i'd suggest trying a few schools for a couple
classes each, they shouldn't mind, if they do i'd look elsewhere. try
them and decide which group feels best to you, that's the most important
thing. the environment you train in, the support and comradarie you feel
will go as far in your development as the skill and experience of your
sensei. even when you've chosen a dojo, don't forget that aikido is so
much bigger than one storefront or one middle-aged dude in a skirt. go to
seminars, read, stay open. good luck and have fun.
Alvin Wen
>Hello,
>
>I'm (finally) beginning to train regularly in Aikido.
>As it turns out I've started in a Kokikai dojo. But,
>other styles are available, eg. Aikikia (ASU and USAF)
>and Ki Society here in Seattle. So, would someone
>who has an idea of what the differences between these
>styles are please voice some information and opinions?
I've been practicing in the Kokikai style for about three months, so what
follows are the opinions of a beginner. I haven't practiced in the Aikikai
style, but I've observed a few Aikikai classes.
Techniques as practiced in Kokikai are very relaxed. As far as possible, a
natural (upright) posture is maintained. We don't extend our fingers as is
done in Aikikai style because this is considered unnecessarily tense. We
try to move uke's body only in ways that are natural for her. For example,
when performing shiho-nage we finish standing behind uke, with uke's wrist
directly behind her shoulderblade. This minimizes the possiblity of
accidental injury to uke.
As far as I know, only the gentler two-handed version of kotegaeshi is
performed, and we emphasize that the important part of the throw is the
disruption of uke's balance, rather than the control of her wrist. In
three months of practicing I've never seen an uke forced to perform high
ukemi from kotegaeshi.
I suspect that the Aikikai-style is a more practical style of self-defense.
On the other hand, at every Aikikai class I watched, the first-aid cabinet
was prominent and someone was practicing while bandaged up. (In fact, I
watched a novice uke injure his elbow taking shiho-nage.)
Personally, I prefer the Kokikai style. It emphasizes ki development and
good posture, both areas in which I'm lacking. Also, I'm willing to trade
"street effectiveness" for diminished chance of injury while practicing.
-Alvin Wen
Rob Cowitz
>other styles are available, eg. Aikikia (ASU and USAF)
>and Ki Society here in Seattle. So, would someone
>who has an idea of what the differences between these
Hi, Mike,
I've trained mainly with the Ki Society, although I've also had
the good fortune to train a bit with some aikikai dojos/people in
Edmonton and Calgary. Sorry, I don't have any exposure to Kokikai
aikido.
Considering that you're in Seattle and have access to Kashawaya
Sensei, who is the chief instructor for the Ki Society in the United
States, and are also very close to Calvin Tabata Sensei in Portland,
Oregon, you have access to some excellent instruction in Ki training
and Shin Shin Toitsu aikido.
As for aikikai, I don't know much about Seattle's situation. However
I understand that Y. Kawahara Sensei, who is a shihan (master level)
instructor and the chief instructor for aikikai in Canada, teaches at
the Vancouver Aikikai in Vancouver, B.C. I have heard that he is an
excellent instructor, and should you choose to train aikikai aikido
you may want to see if the local dojo is affliliated with him so that
you can visit Vancouver from time to time.
(BTW, Norm Jone of the Vancouver Ki Society, although not a shihan, is
also an excellent instructor and would be happy to have you
participate should you travel to Vancouver...)
My advice would be to try a few dojos in your area; go with an open
mind and a positive attitude, forget what you think you know (ie.
empty your cup), and ask questions about anything that you don't
understand. Any good dojo should be open to your questions after the
class. Ki Society classes generally encourage direct participation in
one's first class (due to the intangible nature of ki training - which
is best experienced), while many other dojos encourage you to watch
your first class.
One thing to be very aware of is the quality and attitude of most of
the students in the class, since the students generally reflect the
instructor. Remember also that "friendly" does not necessarily equate
to "high quality" (although it often indicates that people are
positive and enjoying their growth in training) - still, look beyond
the social graces of the dojo to see what lies at its heart. Also,
don't judge soley on the quality of a few high ranking students; look
at the whole of the dojo to see what people are getting out of their
training.
Also, look at why they're there training, and see if this suits you.
Be aware that training will change for you as you progress, so also be
open to change. An interest in the martial application of aikido
brought me to the art, but ki training made me stay because of its
innumerable applications to daily life. Be open to seeing more than
what you bring in, both in knowledge and in interests.
I hope that this helps somewhat. Good luck!
----------------------------------------------
Rob Cowitz
Calgary Ki Society / Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
E-mail: rob.c...@edm.isac.ca
----------------------------------------------
rbuc...@top.monad.net
> In article <4dk8kd$d...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, Mike Hamilton <mikeh> wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >I'm (finally) beginning to train regularly in Aikido.
> >As it turns out I've started in a Kokikai dojo. But,
> >and Ki Society here in Seattle. So, would someone
> >who has an idea of what the differences between these
>
>
>>>>
I am going to visit a dojo in Lyndeborough NH called the Choyokan or Black Sword Aikido. They say that they teach combat
effective techniques as taught by Ueshiba prior to WWII. After WWII he supposedly changed the emphasis of the training to
character building and so, ..."in many schools...the techniques have deteriorated to such an extent that they have lost much of their
effectiveness as self defense." Perhaps this school is characteristic of the rougher style you describe.
I am looking for self defense training. Naturally, I hope to keep my shoulders in place in the process, but I do want to spar as I gain
skill. Your note, however, reinforced my decision to get into REALLY good shape prior to beginnning MA training. I have spent the
last several years sitting in front of a computer with brief bursts of mountain biking and running thrown in. I am 43, a bit stiffer than I
used to be etc. So..I am now running...stretching (OH THE PAIN!) and lifting weights so that I will be able to concentrate on the
Aikido, or jiu jitsu or whatever, rather than just keeping up in class. Does this sound like a reasonable approach for optimizing my
introduction to the martial arts. One school I vistied told me the the physical training required is so different from typical physical
training that I would make faster progress starting MA immediately, rather than trying to get in shape first. Any opinions will be much
appreciated.!
Mark F. Doherty
>I am going to visit a dojo in Lyndeborough NH called the Choyokan or Black Sword Aikido. They say that they teach combat
>effective techniques as taught by Ueshiba prior to WWII. After WWII he supposedly changed the emphasis of the training to
>character building and so, ..."in many schools...the techniques have deteriorated to such an extent that they have lost much of their
>effectiveness as self defense." Perhaps this school is characteristic of the rougher style you describe.
In our dojo, the combat "method" or "technique" is pointed out, and
then we practice a "nicer" version, so as to refrain from breaking our
partner's wrist, etc. The first time I tried to do an all-direction advanced
throw (shiho nage), I was unwittingly about to break my partner's wrist. (I
need to relax more!) Luckily, he was a black belt, and was able to instruct
me on how to loosen my grasp, to avoid any damage. I think that perhaps the
techniques are the same from school to school, but the emphasis, as taught
by the sensei, differs.
>
>I am looking for self defense training. Naturally, I hope to keep my shoulders in place in the process, but I do want to spar as I gain
>skill. Your note, however, reinforced my decision to get into REALLY good shape prior to beginnning MA training. I have spent the
>last several years sitting in front of a computer with brief bursts of mountain biking and running thrown in. I am 43, a bit stiffer than I
>used to be etc. So..I am now running...stretching (OH THE PAIN!) and lifting weights so that I will be able to concentrate on the
>Aikido, or jiu jitsu or whatever, rather than just keeping up in class. Does this sound like a reasonable approach for optimizing my
>introduction to the martial arts. One school I vistied told me the the physical training required is so different from typical physical
>training that I would make faster progress starting MA immediately, rather than trying to get in shape first. Any opinions will be much
>appreciated.!
Ahah! Another middle-ager who stares at computer screens to make
a living...I started training three years ago at the tender age of 39. I have
found that conditioning does help make life easier when working out, but that
it is not essential. That's because, at least at my school, we all work at
our own pace. (Of course, during any one class, we all work at Sensei's
pace - which is a hell of a lot faster than I'm used to!) The only exercise
that is mandatory for myself is knee-strengthening stuff. That's because
the twisting, rotating, etc. has damaged my medial cartilege (both knees),
and I need to warm up a LOT before actually doing any aikido. By
strengthening the muscles, the wear and tear (i.e. pain) is greatly
reduced.
Over the past three years, I've become a lot stronger and in
better condition overall. My wife has noticed it, and I have also. So
I view this as an extra bonus on my training; not only do I learn Aikido
and have fun doing it, I also exercise and keep in shape with it.
I tend to agree with the person who said to go ahead and jump
in. If the school is tolerant of individual progression (and I hope it
would be), then you can learn and get in shape at the same time.
Mark
--
******* D S E ********
Doherty Software Engineering voicemail: (415) 344-5163
851 Burlway Road, Suite 201 fax: (415) 344-0278
Burlingame, CA 94010-1709 email: m...@doherty.com
*****************************************************************
Bill Sullivan
over the past 5 years. I have found that, while there are
differences in style and technique, the most important components
in my enjoyment of a particular dojo were the sensei and the
other students. Any style can be enjoyable if the environment in
which it is practiced suits your personality.
Bill
Chris L. Kuszmaul
>
>Techniques as practiced in Kokikai are very relaxed. As far as possible, a
>natural (upright) posture is maintained. We don't extend our fingers as is
>done in Aikikai style because this is considered unnecessarily tense. We
>try to move uke's body only in ways that are natural for her. For example,
>when performing shiho-nage we finish standing behind uke, with uke's wrist
>directly behind her shoulderblade. This minimizes the possiblity of
>accidental injury to uke.
(etc)
>-Alvin Wen
Some styles, such as Yoshinkan, seem to 'extend' all the fingers, and
Ki Society often has the index finger extended. My understanding in both
cases is that this extension is to promote a relaxed but alert mode of
movement. A practitioner's tension when they extend their fingers is not
*due* to the finger extension, but in spite of it.
I am not familier with any finger extension as a part of the curriculum
taught in any Aikikai dojo with which I am familier. It is true that
in Shiohira Sensei's dojo here in California there are a number of students
with considerable Ki Society training, and so the index finer extension
will appear. Perhaps a similar phenominon has happened in Boston.
I began my training at the MIT Aikido club. I encourage you to drop
by for a practice. Training has typically begun at 5:30 or 6:00 on
weeknights in the old athletic building's wrestling room (near the
student center).
CLK
Chris L. Kuszmaul
and I see that we have officially announced our summer camp. Note especially
that *all* aikidoka are welcome at this summer camp...
The 1996 Summer Camp will be held at Sonoma State University,
Sonoma, California, from Monday, July 15th, through Sunday, July 21st.
Keiko will be led by Senseis Shiohira and Tsuboi, and will consist of
three 1 1/2-hour sessions a day: Early a.m., mid-morning and afternoon, respectively.
There will also be several evening sessions, as well as get-togethers to relax.
Participants may sign up either for the entire week or just the weekend.
Accommodation is limited, so sign up early. This year for the first time
Summer Camp is open to any Aikidoka, not just PACF members. Send email with
your mailing address to fr...@iqix.com for a camp application and rate schedule,
or contact the Aikido Center directly.
Mountain View Aikido Center
2560 Wyandotte Avenue, #A
Mountain View, CA 94043
(415)969-1731
San Francisco Aikido Center
Japantown area
1755 Laguna St. (at Bush)
San Francisco, CA 94115
(415) 921-5073
I'll repost this once or twice in the coming months...
CLK