Okinawan Kiko
Barbara A Parker
Okinawan Kiko by Ryan Parker (c) 1993
No unauthorized reproduction permitted.
Steve was at least six inches taller than the instructor standing
in front of him. Steve also out weighted the instructor by at least 50
pounds. Because of this, he found it difficult to believe that this man
was asking him to punch him as hard as possible in the trachea. Although
skeptical, Steve did as the instructor wished. To Steve's amazement the
instructor seemed completely unaffected by the blow.
During the course of the next few minutes Steve also threw his
hardest punches to vital areas like the kidneys, the solar plexus, and the
short ribs. Steve also kicked the instructor as hard as he was able to the
groin, the knees, and other vulnerable areas. Next, the instructor placed
his relaxed hand about an inch in front of Steve's chest. The instructor
made a sudden forward motion with his hand and Steve found himself lying
in a heap 20 feet away.
Steve wondered if he was dreaming. Steve had not expected to see this
amazing demonstration. He had attended this seminar on Okinawan Shorin Ryu
to learn more about Okinawan vital point fighting and joint locking. As
expected, the instructor taught many tuite (joint locking) techniques and
vital point knock outs. However, at this seminar the instructor decided to
demonstrate a deeper level of Karate than vital point fighting. The
Okinawans call this deeper level Kiko. Kiko, is the ki (internal energy)
manipulation exercises used in Okinawan Karate. The demonstration in which
the instructor took full power blows to his vital areas, described above,
was an example of how a person could develop his ki to protect his body.
The sun zuki (one inch punch) was a demonstration of how ki can vastly
increase the power of a strike.
The theory behind the Kiko exercises taught in Okinawa traces back
to around 520 AD. At this time the Buddhist monk Daruma traveled to the
Shorin Ji temple in China. On arriving, he discovered that the monks at
this temple were weak and unhealthy. Daruma taught the monks a set of
exercises to develop their ki in order to restore their strength and
health. Since the monks at the Shorin Ji temple could not own weapons they
began to practice unarmed martial arts for self defense. It did not take
the monks long to discover that the exercises Daruma had taught produced
tremendous internal power for the martial arts. Daruma's method of Kiko,
recorded in two books called Ekkin Kyo and Senzui Kyo, eventually reached
Okinawa and merged with the Okinawan fighting arts. Today most Okinawan
masters still regard Daruma's teachings as the "most fundamental precepts
of Karatedo."
The Okinawans base their Kiko, tuite and vital point striking on
meridian theory. Meridian theory states that the body takes in energy,
primarily through breathing, and circulates it through well defined
pathways called meridians. A person will have excellent health and
strength when ki is smoothly circulating through the meridians. Kiko
exercises are methods by which a person can build up and circulate his own
ki.
The first stage of Kiko in Okinawan Karate consists of building up energy
in the tanden. The tanden is a point a couple of inches below the naval
that stores the vital energy of the body. Acupuncturist call this point
Kikai, which means sea of ki, because of this. These exercises consist
primarily of specialized forms of abdominal breathing.
After students build sufficient amounts of ki in their tandens, they learn
how to circulate this energy through their two primary meridians. First
the student will raise the energy up the meridian called the Governor
Vessel. This meridian, called Tokumyaku-kei in Japanese, controls the
positive (yo or yang) energy in the body. The Governor Vessel controls the
6 positive meridians of the body. These 6 meridians are the Large
Intestine, Stomach, Small Intestine, Bladder, Triple Warmer and Gall
Bladder. The Okinawans believe that when the ki rises through the Governor
Vessel during Kiko exercises the positive meridians and their
corresponding organs benefit. Once the ki completes its path through this
meridian and reaches Governor 26 (Jinchu) the student must guide the ki
down the Concenption Vessel (ninmyaku-kei). In order to connect the
Governor and Conception Vessels the students must touch their tongues to
their pallets.
The Conception Vessel, called Ninmyaku-kei in Japanese, controls
the 6 negative (in or yin) meridians in the body. The 6 negative meridians
are the Lung, the Spleen, the Heart, the Kidney, the Pericardium and the
Liver. The Okinawans believe that once the ki has been lead through the
Conception Vessel the 6 negative meridians and their corresponding organs
benefit. Once the ki fills the entire Conception Vessel it joins the
Governor Vessel in a continuous cycle. At this point the student has
completed the Small Cycle of the Sky or the Shoshyuten. At this point the
student begins to use Mnun breathing. Mnun breathing is a type of
abdominal breathing. It involves retaining the breath while preforming
special muscular "locks." This type of Kiko increases the circulation of
blood and ki to the internal organs. Mnun breathing also flushes out
accumulated toxins, improving the condition of the internal organs. Last,
Mnun breathing improves the flexibility of the internal organs and their
protective fascial coverings.
Once a student has become proficient at Mnun breathing he will begin the
Large Cycle of the Sky training. In the Large Cycle of the Sky
orDaishyuten training the student learns how to circulate the ki through
the entire body. During Daishyuten training the students charge specific
vital points with their ki. Charging specific vital points with ki is like
a form of self acupuncture. Large Cycle training is preformed by
meditating in a Karate stance for several minutes at a time. This type of
training also increases tendon strength. This type of strength is very
different from normal muscular strength. Karate masters maintain tendon
power to a very old age.
During Large Cycle meditation the student practices merging his ki with
the Earth. The Okinawans call this rooting. When a student has mastered
basic Large Cycle training he will test his ability at rooting. He does
this by having a partner strongly push him at both slow and fast speeds.
When a student can take both slow and fast pushes at full power he has
developed a strong base for his defensive and offensive techniques.
Rooting is not a matter of muscular development. Rooting relies on the
ability to lead the ki to the soles of the feet and into the ground. It
also relies on the ability to unite the entire body into a whole through
ki exercises.
After creating a solid root, the students practice connecting the ki in
their lower body with their upper body. A student may test his ability at
this by having a partner attempt to bend his outstretched arm. Another way
to test this is to have a partner try to push the student back by strongly
pressing on a student's arm. Often the martial arts community holds these
two test up as being a very high level of ki development. In reality these
two test only represent beginning exercises.
When a student develops a strong level of ki throughout his whole
body he tests it through the exercises mentioned above. When he is good at
these tests he begins practicing "energy transmission exercises." Energy
transmission exercises do not involve projecting your ki beyond your body
to affect your attacker without touching him. What an "energy transmission
exercise" does is train the ability to lead the ki to the striking limb.
This greatly increases the power of a blow. The one inch punch (sun zuki )
exercise mentioned above is one example of this type of training. The
Okinawans call the type of power created by these types of exercises "bu
no chikara." When a student's internal power is at a high level his
instructor knows the student has a good level in Large Cycel training.
The instructor may introduce Daruma undo training after Large
Cycle training is complete. The Daruma undo exercise stimulates each of
the 14 major meridians in turn. The practitioner uses a small bundle of
thin rattan sticks to tap the entire length of each meridian. This
exercise expands on the Large Cycle training. It increases the amount of
ki flowing through each meridian. It also helps to unite the entire body
into a whole using the meridian system. After tapping the meridians with
the rattan sticks, the student traces each of the meridians with his
hands. This is a type of acupressure massage to ensure that the ki flows
smoothly through each meridian. The Daruma undo has many beneficial
effects. The vibrations relax bodily tensions and stimulate blood
circulation. These vibrations also shake out accumulated toxins. The
Daruma undo strengthens the muscle meridians and skin. It also strengthens
the blood, organs and bones. With daily practice, the entire body becomes
robust and sturdy. Once again this training is to be a soft type of
training not requiring physical strength or endurance. At 70 year old
Yuchoku Higa uses the Daruma undo every morning, at midday and in the
evening. Mr. Higa even at his advanced age is still able to take blows on
any part of his body. He attributes this ability to his Kiko training.
The training we have outlined above is only beginning training in
Okinawan Kiko. This basic training called ekkin kiko is the "tendon
changing energy exercises" used in Okinawa. The more advanced exercises
used in Okinawa, called senzui kiko, are the "bone marrow cleansing energy
exercises." This advanced training strengthens the bones and creates more
red blood cells. It also balances the endocrine system and energizes the
cerebrospinal system. When mastered, the ekkin kiko and the senzui kiko
give the practitioner tremendous internal power. The practitioner also
experiences excellent health and abundant energy. These exercises play a
large role in the amazing longevity of Okinawan Karate masters. Many
Okinawan Karate masters have continued to teach their art well into their
90s. As you can see Kiko training is an invaluable asset to students of
Okinawan martial arts.
Best Regards,
Ryan Parker
QUARK
(snip the "amazing kiko feats" story]
> The theory behind the Kiko exercises taught in Okinawa traces back
>to around 520 AD. At this time the Buddhist monk Daruma traveled to the
>Shorin Ji temple in China. On arriving, he discovered that the monks at
>this temple were weak and unhealthy. Daruma taught the monks a set of
>exercises to develop their ki in order to restore their strength and
>health. Since the monks at the Shorin Ji temple could not own weapons they
>began to practice unarmed martial arts for self defense. It did not take
>the monks long to discover that the exercises Daruma had taught produced
>tremendous internal power for the martial arts. Daruma's method of Kiko,
>recorded in two books called Ekkin Kyo and Senzui Kyo, eventually reached
>Okinawa and merged with the Okinawan fighting arts. Today most Okinawan
>masters still regard Daruma's teachings as the "most fundamental precepts
>of Karatedo."
(I'm going to wax philosophical here, which is against my taste,
and show readers of this thread just how much Okinawan karate owes
to its Chinese influence, and also point out a few pointers for
karate students interested in Chinese martial arts wanting a little detail so
they can look for proper instruction in these areas. In most of
these things, proper instruction is absolutely essential- qigongs
especially, as pointed out in another thread, can be dangerous if
practiced wrongly. Proper precautions need to be taken.
Bodhidharma indeed is credited with creating two treatises ("Muscle/tendon
transformation treatise (jing)" and the "Bone-marrow washing treatise", both
of which form the basis of much of later Chinese qigong practice. BTW, the
historical evidence behind this story is non-existant. It simply is the stuff
of legends. About all that can be said with certainty is that the Shaolin
monastery became an important center for later martial arts development in
China. Since the origin of Okinawan "kiko" is entirely tfrom China, in
comparing the two streams of development in both countries, one wonders just
how much of the original system was transported to Okinawa. In China today,
there are hundreds of different types of qigongs, some representative of the
internal (neijia) styles, some part of the external (weijia) systems, and some
mixing elements of both. Wing Chun and the White Crane systems are examples
of the latter. The sanchin kata of Uechi-ryu and Goju-ryu in Okinawa also is
an example of a mixture of hard/soft Chinese practices. Neijia (internal)
practitioners in China generally do not place a lot of emphasis on methods of
tensing and relaxing the muscles a la the Yi Jin Jing, which can be
counterproductive to the development of relaxed whole-body power one looks for
in internal martial arts. Hence, the Shaolin types of qigongs, which often
mix hard and soft, are not fundamental in neijia practice. Most internalists
view these as supplemental exercises. Those of you karate-enthusiasts
looking into Chinese martial arts, here is something to watch out for. If
the instructor teaches some type of whole-body tensing and relaxing,
expecially the neck and head areas, take your little self to another school.
These methods can produce a lot of harm (not to mention headaches :-)).
> The Okinawans base their Kiko, tuite and vital point striking on
>meridian theory. Meridian theory states that the body takes in energy,
>primarily through breathing, and circulates it through well defined
>pathways called meridians. A person will have excellent health and
>strength when ki is smoothly circulating through the meridians. Kiko
>exercises are methods by which a person can build up and circulate his own
>ki.
(Joint-locking techniques in karate/jujitsu/judo/aikido/yawara type systems
owe much to the parent Chinese system of chin-na, which comprise the bone and
joint-breaking techniques found in almost every Chinese system of martial art,
whether it be internal or external. The Shaolin types of chin-na form the
basis of what eventually was filtered to Okinawa and Japanese martial systems.
Hence, they are basically a "hard" type of joint-locking, which differentiates
them from neijia usage, not so much in the actual technique itself but in the
manner of application. As always, neijia arts depend on relaxed whole-body
power to execute techniques, including the joint-locks. This means that the
entire body is used to apply force smoothly instead of localized muscular
strength. As for vital point striking, this is a specialized Chinese
martial practice based on meridian theory from traditional Chinese medicine
(hereafter referred to as TCM), upon which accupunture theory is also based.
Striking the vital points on the meridian channels depends on the area of the
body and the time of day for effective application, per TCM, hence can be
somewhat of a problem in actual combat. For reasons like these, internal
artists tend to downplay the dim mak stuff, preferring the development of
internal energy (ground strength) that "makes every point in the body a vital
point". Indeed, a highly skilled internal practitioner does not need vital
point theory, as every point of contact on the opponent's body becomes an
opportunity to apply the vibration of internal jing (energy). In point of
fact, the founder of I-Chuan, Wang Xiangzhai, specifically poo-pooed the
necessity of learning vital point theory. This is something peripheral, not
fundamental, to an internal martial artist. To a dyed-in-the-wool-karateka,
however, by all means learn some basic points and how to strike them. Rick
Clark, who sometimes posts on this group, emphasizes this area in his own
seminars, and every karateka should know a little about this, at least.)
>The first stage of Kiko in Okinawan Karate consists of building up energy
>in the tanden. The tanden is a point a couple of inches below the naval
>that stores the vital energy of the body. Acupuncturist call this point
>Kikai, which means sea of ki, because of this. These exercises consist
>primarily of specialized forms of abdominal breathing.
(The process Ryan tells about here in known as "sinking the ch'i to the tan
t'ien". This goes hand-in-hand with whole-body relaxation, known in Chinese
as "sung" (song). Another definition is "no tension". Actually, the
Japanese word "tanden" comes from the Chinese "tan t'ien", which is the more
common usage when describing this area. "kikai" means "sea of ch'i" in
Chinese). Deep abdominal breathing (what Chinese call "natural breathing") is
indeed important here to produce the kinetic sensation of relaxation;
however, the relaxation is only a first step in energy development. Along
with this relaxation one must also work on getting a good sense of energy from
the ground (some of us copy Mike Sigman here and call this the "ground-force
vector", borrowed from physics to show the path of this energy from the ground
into the point of contact as a sum vector path. Hence, Chinese internal
systems incorporate systems of qigong exercises, along with supplemental
training, to develop this sense of ground-strength. One such practice is
known as zhan zhuang ("standing-like-a-post"), a standing qigong which does
much to build internal energy, like recharging a battery. Hence, in all
internal systems much emphasis is placed on post-standing skills as a
fundamental basis of developing internal strength. At this point, the method
of breathing can be switched over to Taoist "reverse" breathing when learning
how to develop energy-issuing skills (fa jing). This is a whole 'nother topic
and I don't wish to get into it here. At any rate, I hope folks reading this
exposition will realize in all these things, one has to "be shown" (another
trademark expression internalists use a lot!). It simply won't do to read
about it and "think" you have it- these things tend to be subtle and require
a good teacher.)
>After students build sufficient amounts of ki in their tandens, they learn
>how to circulate this energy through their two primary meridians. First
>the student will raise the energy up the meridian called the Governor
>Vessel. This meridian, called Tokumyaku-kei in Japanese, controls the
>positive (yo or yang) energy in the body. The Governor Vessel controls the
>6 positive meridians of the body. These 6 meridians are the Large
>Intestine, Stomach, Small Intestine, Bladder, Triple Warmer and Gall
>Bladder. The Okinawans believe that when the ki rises through the Governor
>Vessel during Kiko exercises the positive meridians and their
>corresponding organs benefit. Once the ki completes its path through this
>meridian and reaches Governor 26 (Jinchu) the student must guide the ki
>down the Concenption Vessel (ninmyaku-kei). In order to connect the
>Governor and Conception Vessels the students must touch their tongues to
>their pallets.
(These ideas Ryan gives above are all based on TCM, and the points were
developed through thousands of years of Chinese research into the energy
centers of the physical and energetic body. The Governing (Ren) and
Conception (Du) channels are the two basic energy-circulation meridian
channels of the body, hence are focused upon for beginning qigong circulation
techniques. The so-called Taoist "microcosmic orbit" takes the ch'i
circulation down to the perineum point between the legs, up the spine
through what Taoists call the "three gates" to the crown of the head (ba-hui),
where a light and sensitive sensation results after much practice which
Chinese believe gives a heightened spiritual awareness; hence in Taoist
literature one often finds reference to "passage through the three gates".
Then the path goes through the "third-eye" on the forehead to the tongue,
where it meets the conception channel, and travels back to the tan t'ien and
perineum. This ch'i path must be coordinated with the inhale and exhale.
After a period of time, one can extend these two paths to the "bubbling-well"
points in the feet, and also include the two palms as ch'i circulates through
the shoulders, hence earning the nickname "macrocosmic orbit".
BYW, folks reading this should NOT assume these practices are the keys
to developing internal energy. In fact, in Chinese teaching methods, they are
looked at as supplemental training. It is a fact that one can be highly
developed in ch'i circulation practices-i.e., a practicing *Taoist* (tm), and
still not have the feintest idea what the mechanics of internal martial power
are. Don't be misled by Ryan's emphasis above. The real emphasis in internal
arts is is somewhat different.)
Large Cycle training is preformed by
>meditating in a Karate stance for several minutes at a time. This type of
>training also increases tendon strength. This type of strength is very
>different from normal muscular strength. Karate masters maintain tendon
>power to a very old age.
(Yes, tendons are trained this way, a la yi jin jing type external Chinese
practices. Internalists, once again (this is getting tiresome), emphasize an
entirely different method of developing elastic, tenacious tendon strength,
which is generally classified as "nei gong" type of exercises. This included
the Chen family silk-reeling training in taijiquan, and other similar
trainings varying on the art and style. Nei gongs are a uniquely Chinese
methodology of opening the joints and reeling internal energy to the
extremities that are extremely important in neijia arts. I'm not going into
detail here, because it serves no purpose. One simply has to "be shown".)
> During Large Cycle meditation the student practices merging his ki with
>the Earth. The Okinawans call this rooting. When a student has mastered
>basic Large Cycle training he will test his ability at rooting. He does
>this by having a partner strongly push him at both slow and fast speeds.
>When a student can take both slow and fast pushes at full power he has
>developed a strong base for his defensive and offensive techniques.
>Rooting is not a matter of muscular development. Rooting relies on the
>ability to lead the ki to the soles of the feet and into the ground. It
>also relies on the ability to unite the entire body into a whole through
>ki exercises.
(Rooting is only the beginning of internal power mechanics. After a good
root, one must move on to developing a good ground-strength path in stationary
and moving practice, as described earlier. One simply does not have
corresponding exercises of this type in karate practice. The mechanisms are
entirely different for power generation between external and internal martial
arts. Were it not so, nobody would bother to learn internal martial arts in
China, nor would they be considered the pinnacle of martial theory and
practice. We could just join the local karate dojo instead.)
> When a student develops a strong level of ki throughout his whole
>body he tests it through the exercises mentioned above. When he is good at
>these tests he begins practicing "energy transmission exercises." Energy
>transmission exercises do not involve projecting your ki beyond your body
>to affect your attacker without touching him. What an "energy transmission
>exercise" does is train the ability to lead the ki to the striking limb.
>This greatly increases the power of a blow. The one inch punch (sun zuki )
>exercise mentioned above is one example of this type of training. The
>Okinawans call the type of power created by these types of exercises "bu
>no chikara." When a student's internal power is at a high level his
>instructor knows the student has a good level in Large Cycel training.
(Sorry, this is an entirely different area than internal "fa jing" practice.
Issuing energy in neijia arts is a whole 'nother ballgame. I'm getting tired
of blow-by-blow analysis at this point, so I'll simply say, "it ain't the
same". Folks, if ya wonna learn external, then concentrate on external
methods of striking. If ya wonna learn internal, learn internal. A hunter
who chases two rabbits will catch neither.)
> The instructor may introduce Daruma undo training after Large
>Cycle training is complete. The Daruma undo exercise stimulates each of
>the 14 major meridians in turn. The practitioner uses a small bundle of
>thin rattan sticks to tap the entire length of each meridian. This
>exercise expands on the Large Cycle training. It increases the amount of
>ki flowing through each meridian....
(This is also an exercise borrowed by Okinawans from China, used in so-called
"Iron Shirt" training. Where do you think Okinawans got this stuff?)
> The training we have outlined above is only beginning training in
>Okinawan Kiko. This basic training called ekkin kiko is the "tendon
>changing energy exercises" used in Okinawa. The more advanced exercises
>used in Okinawa, called senzui kiko, are the "bone marrow cleansing energy
>exercises." This advanced training strengthens the bones and creates more
>red blood cells. It also balances the endocrine system and energizes the
>cerebrospinal system. When mastered, the ekkin kiko and the senzui kiko
>give the practitioner tremendous internal power. The practitioner also
>experiences excellent health and abundant energy. These exercises play a
>large role in the amazing longevity of Okinawan Karate masters. Many
>Okinawan Karate masters have continued to teach their art well into their
>90s. As you can see Kiko training is an invaluable asset to students of
>Okinawan martial arts.
(Yes, but the bone marrow methods used in Okinawan karate originate in
China. There are hundreds of bone-breathing, bone-washing, bone-squeezing,
condensed-breath type training methods in Chinese qigongs that are the basis
for Okinawan practices. Again, where do you think this stuff came from?)
>Best Regards,
>Ryan Parker
Ditto.
Q.
Laura Buma
> >Okinawan Kiko by Ryan Parker (c) 1993
>
> >Best Regards,
> >Ryan Parker
>
> Ditto.
>
> Q.
>
been sniping about the past few months.
I've been silently holding my tongue and wondering why you were arguing -- I mean, qi is all internal,
isn't it? Obviously, I'm a novice in this particular area. I found this very interesting and a good jumping
off point for examining what I'm learning and what other people are offering to teach. This discussion
also clicked on a few lightbulbs in regard to some things I've been reading. All in all, it makes wading
through the trash worth it.
Thanks again,
Laura
QUARK
>From: downs...@ndu.edu (Laura Buma)
>Subject: Re: Okinawan Kiko/Chinese internal energy: lets get real
>Date: 13 Apr 1995 21:18:55 GMT
>> QU...@Nice.guy.pushed.too.far (QUARK) writes:
>> >Okinawan Kiko by Ryan Parker (c) 1993
>>
><<Big Fat SNIP>>
>> >Best Regards,
>> >Ryan Parker
>>
>> Ditto.
>>
>> Q.
>>
>I want to thank you guys for taking the time to write about your different concepts of ki/qi that you've
>been sniping about the past few months.
>I've been silently holding my tongue and wondering why you were arguing -- I mean, qi is all internal,
>isn't it? Obviously, I'm a novice in this particular area. I found this very interesting and a good jumping
>off point for examining what I'm learning and what other people are offering to teach. This discussion
>also clicked on a few lightbulbs in regard to some things I've been reading. All in all, it makes wading
>through the trash worth it.
>Thanks again,
>Laura
Thanks Laura, its nice to see someone getting some kind of benefit from any
exchanges here on our beloved RMA. Ryan and I may not have the best net
etiquette, primarily because he's stubborn and I'm not (:-), but don't let
that stop you from pulling out something helpful. BTW, if you're interested
in internal martial arts at all, a well-grounded teacher is essential, and
also rather hard to find. There's a lot of "name" teachers who hang the taiji
label on their doorstep, but who are essentially leading folks down a
non-productive road. We have the "Taoist mystery religion" folks, the
"pretty forms" path, the "gee, karate is the same as taiji" folks, etc. etc.
etc. Be discriminating when you choose a teacher. Some of the guidelines I
pointed out should help you search for a results-oriented teacher. It's easy
to waste years in non-productive practice. I actually chose not to get too
far into details, because in the final analysis neijia arts must be shown and
experienced for oneself. The books and descriptions have very real
limitations.
Cheers,
Q.
Roger Krueger
Ryan Parker and QUARK discuss kiko/qigong ...
> Since the origin of Okinawan "kiko" is entirely from China, in comparing
> the two streams of development in both countries, one wonders just
> how much of the original system was transported to Okinawa.
the Chinese practices; though admittedly time and geography may have produced
so many permutations and combinations in said practices as to preclude a
comparison.
> ... Again, where do you think this stuff came from?
I'm interested in what both you guys have to say. But Mr. Parker admitted or
proclaimed at the outset that the origins of kiko came from China, so berating
him with that fact doesn't seem very productive.
Roger Krueger rkru...@delphi.com
QUARK
>From: Roger Krueger <rkru...@delphi.com>
>Subject: Re: Okinawan Kiko/Chinese internal energy: lets get real
>
>Ryan Parker and QUARK discuss kiko/qigong ...
>
>> Since the origin of Okinawan "kiko" is entirely from China, in comparing
>> the two streams of development in both countries, one wonders just
>> how much of the original system was transported to Okinawa.
>
>At least two, and possibly many, wonder how the Okinawan practices differ from
>the Chinese practices; though admittedly time and geography may have produced
>so many permutations and combinations in said practices as to preclude a
>comparison.
(Hmmm, I think it rather obvious here that both countries use much out of the
same source, traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), so one can be fairly certain
when discussing theory from both countries that there is an apples-to-apples
correspondance on the various concepts).
I'm interested in what both you guys have to say. But Mr. Parker admitted or
>proclaimed at the outset that the origins of kiko came from China, so berating
>him with that fact doesn't seem very productive.
>
>Roger Krueger rkru...@delphi.com
(Thanks for the kind words, Roger. I'm not particularly interested in
"berating" Mr. Parker concerning the origins of the theory; I'm more
interested in Mr. Parker's re-occuring theme of "my art has it all". No art
has it all. I still get the impression Mr. Parker thinks Okinawan karate at
the higher levels is the same as taiji, xingyi, and baguaquan. An assumption
like this flies in the face of what internalists believe about their own
practice, so I think the point worth hammering in.
In his efforts to promote Okinawan karate styles, Mr. Parker
has also indirectly subordinated Japanese styles into a inferior position, a
topic I have not chosen to address. Since the foundations of Japanese systems
depend so much on Okinawan styles, there is not a big gap in advanced practice
between the karate of both countries like one is sometimes led to believe
here. I dare say my own high-ranking karate instructors could
teach Mr. Parker a thing or two about joint locks and throws, vital points,
unity of offense/defense, accupunture theory, etc. etc.
etc. Are you kidding? Kanazawa Hirokazu and the high level JKA old-timers
are widely recognized as some the best karateka in the world, bar none! The
fact that styles such as Shotokan do not ephasize these factors in the U.S.
does not necessarily mean they don't exist in the style (where does Japanese
high-level kata come from?), it may be that high-level Japanese take the view
that fundamental technique is the necessary emphasis in the West. When
everyone calling themselves "karateka" on this net punches and kicks with the
dynamic power that Shotokan technique develops, I'll be happy to move on to
more advanced topics. In the meantime, if you're a few-year-old karateka and
worried about Ryan's "advanced tendon training" (tm), methinks you're barking
up the wrong tree.
Q. "striking a blow for Japanese karate"
Barbara A Parker
: (Thanks for the kind words, Roger. I'm not particularly interested in
: "berating" Mr. Parker concerning the origins of the theory; I'm more
: interested in Mr. Parker's re-occuring theme of "my art has it all".
Actually, I think it is more accurate to say that my theme has been "if it
is functionally useful within the context of the art Okinawan styles have
it". For instance jump,turning, kicks are not functionally useful within
the context of Okinawan arts and they are also not present...
: No art has it all.
And nobody should want it all...
: I still get the impression Mr. Parker thinks Okinawan karate at
: the higher levels is the same as taiji, xingyi, and baguaquan.
You were the one who stated that Mr. Kanazawa has been incorporting what
you called "Neija" concepts into karate. I simply said that they (what you
listed) were already in the art long before Kanazawa. You were the one who
said "soft" "circular" etc. equals Neija type techniques. I wasn't
asserting they were or weren't I simply asked what you oppion on certain
relationships were...
BTW I wasn't even talking about kiko vs Chi Gung. That is something you
brought up...
FYI I don't think karate (at the higher levels) is the "same" as Neija. I
do assert that you aren't familiar enough (or at least it would seem so)
with classical Okinawan arts to expound of the differences ;-)
: An assumption
: like this flies in the face of what internalists believe about their own
: practice, so I think the point worth hammering in.
Internalist who understand classical karate?
: In his efforts to promote Okinawan karate styles, Mr. Parker
: has also indirectly subordinated Japanese styles into a inferior
: position, a topic I have not chosen to address.
I have attempted not to group all Japanese styles under a single banner
and then banish them with the lable "inferior". Some styles in Japan
undoubtedly remain close to their roots
I do, however, acknowledge that karate (both on Okinawa and elsewhere)
has developed into what I would call "degenerate" forms. These schools
have lost touch with the original concepts of the art and are really
another art entirely. I refuse to speculate on which style my (as a
whole) gone this route. I have seen many idividual schools that fit into
this category.
I class styles into two groups. Classical and Nonclassical. I have seen
both styles being represented under the lable "Japanese" and under the
name "Okinawan". Where the art is practiced is not important, WHAT is
practiced is...
: here. I dare say my own high-ranking karate instructors could
: teach Mr. Parker a thing or two about joint locks and throws, vital points,
: unity of offense/defense, accupunture theory, etc. etc.
: etc. Are you kidding? Kanazawa Hirokazu and the high level JKA old-timers
: are widely recognized as some the best karateka in the world, bar none!
Mr Kanazawa openly admits kyusho was not taught to him in the JKA.
As to whether he could teach me things... I am sure he could. However,
unlike you, I would be willing to learn ;-) (just kidding)
: Q. "striking a blow for Japanese karate"
I (TtBoMK) never stated that Japanese karate as a whole or JKA in
particular were teaching less than Okinawan styles as a whole... I do
acknowledge that some schools I have seen that call themselves either
Japanese or Okinawan have really sucked. I also acknowledge that the
principles *commonly* described as the technical basis of Japanese karate
are a FAR way indeed from classical Okinawan arts...
Best Regards,
Ryan Parker
Walter W. Sigman
: : An assumption
: : like this flies in the face of what internalists believe about their own
: : practice, so I think the point worth hammering in.
: Internalist who understand classical karate?
hmmmmmmm.
How about a karateka who really understands the internal? :^)
I also acknowledge that the
: principles *commonly* described as the technical basis of Japanese karate
: are a FAR way indeed from classical Okinawan arts...
I'm not really into sweeping statements nor do I really want to get into
a brushfire, but I guess my comments would be as follows:
None of the kiko facets you have described are unknown in Chinese martial
arts. In fact, they are not even uncommon. My view of that area of the
world is that it is very difficult to hold up any one type of practice
and call it unique. Okinawa certainly didn't originate meridian and qi
theories..... that's part of your practice, so the whole idea of Okinawan
classical karate being unique and special immediately comes to question.
At best, if I were you, I would describe the art as a good one without
intimating (even unintentionally) that it is a unique one in its practices.
Also, although I feel that you peripherally approach the "internal"
styles with some of your exercises, my opinion is that you are taking
your qigong practices and equating them to mean "internal", and there's a
difference. If you read many articles in RMA, you'll notice how many
styles claim that they are "internal"..... as far as I can tell, they do
it because they have assigned their own definition to the word
"internal." Frankly, one of the first things I ever did was go to a
number of very knowledgeable Chinese (the Japanese use of the word
"internal" is fairly recent) and get a consensus about the term.
Although some qigong work is neigong (internal work), it is not
necessarily an indicator of an "internal" martial art.
I feel that you do good stuff, although I am slightly concerned about the
advocacy of the conditioning gungs and the amount of punishment they
allow people to endure. As I've said in the past, I know of kiko
practitioners who were injured and one who died after repeated
demonstrations (the death was even reported in IKF). I am sure that your
practice is good and I hope that you continue in spreading good stuff,
but I almost feel that you should take the time to recognize that these
practices are not unique to Okinawa and that some aspects of these
practices, when used wrongly, can lead to injury.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
--
Steven Weigand
In article <msigmanD...@netcom.com> msi...@netcom.com (Walter W. Sigman) writes:
>Also, although I feel that you peripherally approach the "internal"
>styles with some of your exercises, my opinion is that you are taking
>your qigong practices and equating them to mean "internal", and there's a
>difference. If you read many articles in RMA, you'll notice how many
>styles claim that they are "internal"..... as far as I can tell, they do
>it because they have assigned their own definition to the word
>"internal." Frankly, one of the first things I ever did was go to a
>number of very knowledgeable Chinese (the Japanese use of the word
>"internal" is fairly recent) and get a consensus about the term.
>Although some qigong work is neigong (internal work), it is not
>necessarily an indicator of an "internal" martial art.
Then, Mike, what exactly *is* defined as "internal" (neigung) chi
kung? And what is "external" (waigung?)? If I understand Ryan's
posts correctly, one of the methods he uses is to just sit still and
cycle chi around the microcosmic and macrocosmic orbits. I was thinking
that this was neigung. Am I right? What happens when you take the
same exercises and begin to use them while doing a form? Do they
then constitute waigung (external)? I'm confused on this point.
Please help me out.
But even if you do classify "internal" into subcategories like neigung
and waigung, what difference does it make? They're still going to
benefit you. A rose by any other name... You know what I'm saying?
Why argue over the classification of an exercise?
>I feel that you do good stuff, although I am slightly concerned about the
>advocacy of the conditioning gungs and the amount of punishment they
>allow people to endure. As I've said in the past, I know of kiko
>practitioners who were injured and one who died after repeated
>demonstrations (the death was even reported in IKF). I am sure that your
>practice is good and I hope that you continue in spreading good stuff,
>but I almost feel that you should take the time to recognize that these
>practices are not unique to Okinawa and that some aspects of these
>practices, when used wrongly, can lead to injury.
Mike (or anyone), could you post a description of what happened in
that kiko demo? Who it was, what they were doing, etc?
One thing that I've gotten from asking questions of Ryan Parker is
that he constantly stresses more yin type of internal exercises.
His sanchin kata, for example, doesn't use dynamic muscle tension,
but instead relaxes the body. From what I gather, he's definitely
not advocating the harsh kiko body conditioning exercises that some
others do. I could be wrong, though.
Thanks in advance,
- Steve Weigand
(wei...@udel.edu)
Stephen O Gombosi
QUARK <QU...@Nice.guy.pushed.too.far> wrote:
>
>(Joint-locking techniques in karate/jujitsu/judo/aikido/yawara type systems
>owe much to the parent Chinese system of chin-na, which comprise the bone and
There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the kansetsu-waza of the
aiki arts came from China. They probably *did*, but there's no evidence.
I've always been fond of the traditional explanation of the origin of these
techniques - that Minamoto-no-Yoshimitsu developed them based on the
knowledge of human anatomy he gained by actually dissecting cadavers.
It appeals to the Western empiricist in me ;-).
>joint-breaking techniques found in almost every Chinese system of martial art,
>whether it be internal or external. The Shaolin types of chin-na form the
>basis of what eventually was filtered to Okinawa and Japanese martial systems.
>Hence, they are basically a "hard" type of joint-locking, which differentiates
>them from neijia usage, not so much in the actual technique itself but in the
>manner of application. As always, neijia arts depend on relaxed whole-body
>power to execute techniques, including the joint-locks. This means that the
>entire body is used to apply force smoothly instead of localized muscular
>strength.
You have obviously never seen a Motobu-ryu demonstration.
Of course, you're not likely to outside of Okinawa.
>As for vital point striking, this is a specialized Chinese
>martial practice based on meridian theory from traditional Chinese medicine
>(hereafter referred to as TCM), upon which accupunture theory is also based.
>Striking the vital points on the meridian channels depends on the area of the
>body and the time of day for effective application, per TCM, hence can be
>somewhat of a problem in actual combat. For reasons like these, internal
>artists tend to downplay the dim mak stuff, preferring the development of
>internal energy (ground strength) that "makes every point in the body a vital
>point". Indeed, a highly skilled internal practitioner does not need vital
>point theory, as every point of contact on the opponent's body becomes an
>opportunity to apply the vibration of internal jing (energy). In point of
This reminds me of a conversation between Omine Chotoku-sensei and one
of his students about 20 years ago:
Student: Sensei, if you wanted to kill someone where would you punch him?
Omine-sensei: Anywhere.
Student: Anywhere??????
Omine-sensei: Anywhere. If you really know how to punch, it doesn't matter.
Steve "Just passing through, some more, again, yet, even, still" G.
QUARK
>From: bapa...@badlands.NoDak.edu (Barbara A Parker)
>Subject: Re: Okinawan Kiko/Chinese internal energy: lets get real
>QUARK (QU...@Nice.guy.pushed.too.far) wrote:
>: (Thanks for the kind words, Roger. I'm not particularly interested in
>: "berating" Mr. Parker concerning the origins of the theory; I'm more
>: interested in Mr. Parker's re-occuring theme of "my art has it all".
>Actually, I think it is more accurate to say that my theme has been "if it
>is functionally useful within the context of the art Okinawan styles have
>it". For instance jump,turning, kicks are not functionally useful within
>the context of Okinawan arts and they are also not present...
>: No art has it all.
>And nobody should want it all...
>: I still get the impression Mr. Parker thinks Okinawan karate at
>: the higher levels is the same as taiji, xingyi, and baguaquan.
>You were the one who stated that Mr. Kanazawa has been incorporting what
>you called "Neija" concepts into karate. I simply said that they (what you
>listed) were already in the art long before Kanazawa. You were the one who
>said "soft" "circular" etc. equals Neija type techniques. I wasn't
>asserting they were or weren't I simply asked what you oppion on certain
>relationships were...
>BTW I wasn't even talking about kiko vs Chi Gung. That is something you
>brought up...
>FYI I don't think karate (at the higher levels) is the "same" as Neija. I
>do assert that you aren't familiar enough (or at least it would seem so)
>with classical Okinawan arts to expound of the differences ;-)
>: An assumption
>: like this flies in the face of what internalists believe about their own
>: practice, so I think the point worth hammering in.
>Internalist who understand classical karate?
>: In his efforts to promote Okinawan karate styles, Mr. Parker
>Japanese or Okinawan have really sucked. I also acknowledge that the
>principles *commonly* described as the technical basis of Japanese karate
>are a FAR way indeed from classical Okinawan arts...
>Best Regards,
>Ryan Parker
(Ryan, for the most part I agree with this post. Some good points here.
Some details ain't worth arguing over. Ha! We fooled these UFCers who thought
we were fighting here, eh?
BTW, those of you reading this thread be sure to ckeck out Mike Sigman's post
on the subject too. I stole a lot from Mike, and defer to him on all
questions on internal martial arts. If you have a chance to catch one of
Mike's seminars in your area, get off yer lazy ass and hightail down and
sign up. Even you damn stubborn karate people...)
Q. "remember karateka never fight, they just
Stephen O Gombosi
>In article <3n7e41$g...@rainbow.rmii.com> s...@rmii.com (Stephen O Gombosi) writes:
>>QUARK <QU...@Nice.guy.pushed.too.far> wrote:
>Q:
>>>(Joint-locking techniques in karate/jujitsu/judo/aikido/yawara type systems
>>>owe much to the parent Chinese system of chin-na, which comprise the bone and
< snipperoo>
>>I've always been fond of the traditional explanation of the origin of these
>>techniques - that Minamoto-no-Yoshimitsu developed them based on the
>>knowledge of human anatomy he gained by actually dissecting cadavers.
>>It appeals to the Western empiricist in me ;-).
>Hi Steve, good to have you here again. Hope things are going well. The
Just passin' through - at a buck an hour I can't afford to wade through
rma on a regular basis (at least not while I'm on unemployment).
Things, as the redoubtable Ms. Malmros would say, suck dead bunnies through
a straw.
>problem with origins is tricky, for sure. However, your cure above strikes me
>as being more unlikely than the disease.)
Why is it worse? Do you have something against the notion that a professional
warrior who *depended* on a knowledge of human anatomy for his survival might
actually decide to examine a few bodies to see how they're put together?
I find it a lot more plausible than the tengu, wandering Taoist immortals,
goddesses, or forest spirits who usually get credited with originating this
sort of knowledge.
If we are willing to accept this story at face value (which doesn't seem
to be *too* outrageous on a newsgroup populated by believers in Chang
San-feng, Bodhidharma, "Iron" Kim, and (for all I know) the tooth fairy), a
lot of things start to fall into place.
Both Ryan and I have alluded to the
remarkable similarity between the Motobu-ryu (the only tuite style I've
seen) and the Aiki arts of Japan. These arts trace themselves back to
the Takeda family, which is descended from the Aizu branch of the Minamoto
clan. Minamoto-no-Yoshimitsu is generally credited with being the originator
of these arts, although he may have merely organized the techniques into
a cohesive whole. The story of him dissecting cadavers may or may not be
true - it certainly reflects the approach *I'd* take if I wanted to formulate
such an art, but I'm not Yoshimitsu (maybe I should check with Shirley
MacClaine before saying that). In any event, that's irrelevant.
As you may or may not know, the Sho^ family (Okinawan royal house) has
always claimed to be descended from the Minamoto clan. Some authors
have concluded that this claim is some sort of weird metaphor for the veritable
inundation of Okinawa by refugees from both the Minamoto and Taira clans
during the Minamoto-Taira wars (Taira is in fact a *very* common name on
Okinawa). I don't think it's a metaphor - I think it's a fact. I think it
also accounts quite nicely for the remarkable similarity between the "Goten-
no-te" (Palace Hand) of Okinawa (which was the private family martial art
of the Okinawan royal family, now known as Motobu-ryu) and those arts passed
down by members of the Minamoto clan on the main islands.
>Q:
>>>joint-breaking techniques found in almost every Chinese system of
>martial art, blah blah blah
>
>Steve:
>>You have obviously never seen a Motobu-ryu demonstration.
>>Of course, you're not likely to outside of Okinawa.
>
>Q:
>Nope, I haven't. However, can we rush to the conclusion that Motoburyu
>uses whole-body relaxation a la Chinese internal arts?
I'm not rushing to any conclusions. *I* didn't make any categorical
statements about arts I've never seen. *You* did. Put up or shut up.
>Call me silly, but I
I have. I'll probably do so again. ;-)
>don't know your point is proved from your comment.
Great Ghu, Quark - if you don't know anything else you *should* know
enough not to hand me a straight line like that.
I'm not the one with the claim that needs to be proved, Quark. *You* made
the statement, and proceeded to "back it up" with assertions which prove
conclusively that you have no idea what you're talking about in this instance.
>
>Q:
>>>As for vital point striking, this is a specialized Chinese
>>>martial practice blah blah blah
And it's probably *also* a specialized Indian martial arts practice.
As the delectable Ms. Radner is wont to say: what's your point?
>S:
>>This reminds me of a conversation between Omine Chotoku-sensei and one
>>of his students about 20 years ago:
>>Student: Sensei, if you wanted to kill someone where would you punch him?
>>Omine-sensei: Anywhere.
>>Student: Anywhere??????
>>Omine-sensei: Anywhere. If you really know how to punch, it doesn't matter.
>
>Q:
>Good story, and true too. However, one could just as easily use this to
>illustrate the Shotokan concept of "one strike kill", and there ain't no
>internal energy necesary there (albeit lots of waza). I'm not gonna let you
I didn't say there was, Quark.
Perhaps you should spend less time with qigong and more time with
"Hooked on Phonics" ;-).
>off the hook so easily! See ya,
Sounds pretty fishy to me.
Steve
QUARK
>Subject: Re: Okinawan Kiko/Chinese internal energy: lets get real
>In article <QUARK.138...@Nice.guy.pushed.too.far>,
>QUARK <QU...@Nice.guy.pushed.too.far> wrote:
Q:
>>(Joint-locking techniques in karate/jujitsu/judo/aikido/yawara type systems
>>owe much to the parent Chinese system of chin-na, which comprise the bone and
S:
>There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the kansetsu-waza of the
>aiki arts came from China. They probably *did*, but there's no evidence.
>I've always been fond of the traditional explanation of the origin of these
>techniques - that Minamoto-no-Yoshimitsu developed them based on the
>knowledge of human anatomy he gained by actually dissecting cadavers.
>It appeals to the Western empiricist in me ;-).
Q:
Hi Steve, good to have you here again. Hope things are going well. The
problem with origins is tricky, for sure. However, your cure above strikes me
as being more unlikely than the disease.)
Q:
>>joint-breaking techniques found in almost every Chinese system of
martial art, blah blah blah
Steve:
>You have obviously never seen a Motobu-ryu demonstration.
>Of course, you're not likely to outside of Okinawa.
Q:
Nope, I haven't. However, can we rush to the conclusion that Motoburyu
uses whole-body relaxation a la Chinese internal arts? Call me silly, but I
don't know your point is proved from your comment.
Q:
>>As for vital point striking, this is a specialized Chinese
>>martial practice blah blah blah
S:
>This reminds me of a conversation between Omine Chotoku-sensei and one
>of his students about 20 years ago:
>Student: Sensei, if you wanted to kill someone where would you punch him?
>Omine-sensei: Anywhere.
>Student: Anywhere??????
>Omine-sensei: Anywhere. If you really know how to punch, it doesn't matter.
Q:
Good story, and true too. However, one could just as easily use this to
illustrate the Shotokan concept of "one strike kill", and there ain't no
internal energy necesary there (albeit lots of waza). I'm not gonna let you
off the hook so easily! See ya,
Q. "Damn Okinawaners are still up to their tricks" S.
Barbara A Parker
In article <msigmanD...@netcom.com> you wrote:
: Barbara A Parker (bapa...@badlands.NoDak.edu) wrote:
: I also acknowledge that the
: : principles *commonly* described as the technical basis of Japanese karate
: : are a FAR way indeed from classical Okinawan arts...
: I'm not really into sweeping statements nor do I really want to get into
: a brushfire, but I guess my comments would be as follows:
I didn't think any of your statements were sweeping nor should they start
"a brush fire" (at least not with me). They seemed well reasoned and I
have to agree with most.
: None of the kiko facets you have described are unknown in Chinese martial
: arts.
I never said they were.
: In fact, they are not even uncommon. My view of that area of the
: world is that it is very difficult to hold up any one type of practice
: and call it unique.
I never claimed that the theory behind kiko was unique. I do think the
exact methods (i.e. hand position, exact schedualing etc) may be unique to
Okinawan schools. You'll get no argument from me on the lack of uniqueness
of theory. On the other hand there are few Chinese stylist that I have
heard of (OK, actually NONE) that can do what I do...
: Okinawa certainly didn't originate meridian and qi
: theories..... that's part of your practice, so the whole idea of Okinawan
: classical karate being unique and special immediately comes to question.
I *never* claimed they were unique or special. I DID take exception to
Quark's claim they were "inferior" or "watered down"
I don't think there are "better" or "special" I just think they are "at
least as good in general and better in some specific areas (as well as
worse in some)".
: Also, although I feel that you peripherally approach the "internal"
: styles with some of your exercises, my opinion is that you are taking
: your qigong practices and equating them to mean "internal", and there's a
: difference.
I'd agree that I would not meet your definition... (I will easily
acknowledge I have not seen the exact body dynamics you show on tape in
Okinawan arts). However, I think that classical karate fits Quark's
(rather odd) "definition" of Internal (i.e. circular, soft, etc)
: If you read many articles in RMA, you'll notice how many
: styles claim that they are "internal".....
I do not claim my style is internal (not for a year at least,
speaking with you was very educational). I do claim I do "internal
energy" exercises. Note that Internal Energy is simply a common
translation of "ki/chi". I don't claim that the exercises are
"internal", but rather that they involve "internal energy".
BTW I know full well that karate will not meet your (or many people's)
definition of karate. I just didn't think Quark could back up his
assertions with hard data... I haven't seen anything that would change
this opinion yet.
: Although some qigong work is neigong (internal work), it is not
: necessarily an indicator of an "internal" martial art.
I'll accept this.
: I feel that you do good stuff, although I am slightly concerned about the
: advocacy of the conditioning gungs and the amount of punishment they
: allow people to endure.
So is my mom. She supports me but she worries ;-)
: As I've said in the past, I know of kiko
: practitioners who were injured and one who died after repeated
: demonstrations (the death was even reported in IKF).
I believe you about this... I also know that properly trained kiko people
have lived and kept on demonstrating well into old age (i.e. Mr Higa was
demonstrating into his 70s).
: I am sure that your
: practice is good and I hope that you continue in spreading good stuff,
: but I almost feel that you should take the time to recognize that these
: practices are not unique to Okinawa and that some aspects of these
: practices, when used wrongly, can lead to injury.
I'll do this right now (and will in the future). Kiko theory is NOT
unique. It has nearly identical predecessors in China. Nor is
demonstrating taking blows without risk. I don't recommend it to anyone.
Nice to see you jump in Mike,
Best Regards,
Ryan Parker
QUARK
>From: s...@rmii.com (Stephen O Gombosi)
>Subject: Re: Okinawan Kiko/Chinese internal energy: lets get real
Steve:
>>>I've always been fond of the traditional explanation of the origin of these
>>>techniques - that Minamoto-no-Yoshimitsu developed them based on the
>>>knowledge of human anatomy he gained by actually dissecting cadavers.
>>>It appeals to the Western empiricist in me ;-).
Q:
>>problem with origins is tricky, for sure. However, your cure above strikes me
>>as being more unlikely than the disease.)
S:
>Why is it worse? Do you have something against the notion that a
professional>warrior who *depended* on a knowledge of human anatomy for his
survival might>actually decide to examine a few bodies to see how they're put
together?>I find it a lot more plausible than the tengu, wandering Taoist
immortals,>goddesses, or forest spirits who usually get credited with
originating this>sort of knowledge.
(Funny you should mention these things in the same breath. Did you
know that ancient Chinese medicine developed through examining cadavers, and
even better, torturing live victims)? Given that folk medicine in many
countries relied on dead bodies for anatomy lessons (actually, cadavers are
still very useful in medicine) this is hardly a tremendous revelation.
Whether this provides any useful information on the *origins* of Motobu-ryu,
or even mainland aiki-type arts, is another question entirely. I believe we
had a similar discussion many months ago on the quesiton of where Ueshiba's
aikido came from, (I denied he directly learned any Chinese arts, nor needed
to) and even some knowledgeable aikidoka were willing to accept a Chinese
"parent" art for Daito-ryu and such, although any direct connections (and the
time factors) were pure speculation. Mike Sigman has sometimes mentioned
many similarities between aikido entering techniques and some of the bagua
circling motions, and who knows? Are you or Ryan knowledgeable enough on the
history of these arts to categorically deny a Chinese/Indian/Laplander/Bruce
Lee influence? My vote is, you aren't. Let's cut the cadaver analogies,
every country has 'em.)
>>Q:
>>>>joint-breaking techniques found in almost every Chinese system of
>>martial art, blah blah blah
>>
>>Steve:
>>>You have obviously never seen a Motobu-ryu demonstration.
>>>Of course, you're not likely to outside of Okinawa.
>>
>>Q:
>>Nope, I haven't. However, can we rush to the conclusion that Motoburyu
>>uses whole-body relaxation a la Chinese internal arts?
>I'm not rushing to any conclusions. *I* didn't make any categorical
>statements about arts I've never seen. *You* did. Put up or shut up.
(Ah, aren't these conversations wonderful? And the objective viewpoints,
delightful. Fact is, your joint efforts (w/Ryan) to give net readers an
*unbiased* picture of Okinawan karate history have played pretty fast and
loose with the facts. The literature doesn't exactly support your views, and
I believe you're aware of it. Here's something I'll "put up" that you've
totally ignored: care to tell me how the Chinese merchants handed down the
lock, stock, and barrel of Chinese chuan fa to Okinawan farmers, when
traditional Chinese protocol didn't until fairly recently pass down the
secrets of the arts to anyone outside the immeditate family (and then to the
oldest son)????
Furthermore, If we posit a tremendous debt to China for its influence on
Okinawan systems in general, and ALL of the literature does, where do your
own silly little quirks about *uniqueness* fit in? Nonsense is nonsense.
I'm outta here. By now, with the rest of that fine RMA community, I don't even
care where *Okinawan karate* came from...
Cheers,
Q. "Ah, stuff it, your research stinks"
Fredrich P. Maney
> : (Thanks for the kind words, Roger. I'm not particularly interested in
> : "berating" Mr. Parker concerning the origins of the theory; I'm more
> : interested in Mr. Parker's re-occuring theme of "my art has it all".
> Actually, I think it is more accurate to say that my theme has been "if it
> is functionally useful within the context of the art Okinawan styles have
> it". For instance jump,turning, kicks are not functionally useful within
> the context of Okinawan arts and they are also not present...
Hmmm.... I think there are many people who study classical Okinawan
Martial Arts would disagree with you on both counts.
fpsm
--
| ma...@ewl.uky.edu : "May death find you, and lead you through |
| : the gates of existence, with as much compassion |
| : and gentleness as you deserve." -fpsm |
Walter W. Sigman
: I never claimed that the theory behind kiko was unique. I do think the
: exact methods (i.e. hand position, exact schedualing etc) may be unique to
: Okinawan schools. You'll get no argument from me on the lack of uniqueness
: of theory. On the other hand there are few Chinese stylist that I have
: heard of (OK, actually NONE) that can do what I do...
I guess you mean in the United States. There are certainly some.... in
fact I remember a tape from the 60's which showed a gathering in New York
where some American martial artists performed exhibitions taking large
blows to various parts of the body, including the testicles.
However, I take your point. The body of this type of knowledge is quite
small, as are areas of knowledge about many facets of martial arts in the
United States. Actually, I consider real martial arts to be quite young
in the west. It's growing, but many people overestimate (or overstate)
what they do know. To me, it's quite surprising that the information
you're tryin to spread is so unknown.
Anyway, I applaud your spread of those techniques and ideas and I hope
that you will also maintain a very clinical view of what those ideas
represent. Progress will be best helped by sharing your ideas, but
correlating those ideas with what a western kinesiologist might say would
also be helpful ..... kiko techniques don't fall outside of the laws of
physics or you would be able to stand in front of a train. :^)
Regards,
Mike Sigman
--
Barbara A Parker
: > Actually, I think it is more accurate to say that my theme has been "if it
: > is functionally useful within the context of the art Okinawan styles have
: > it". For instance jump,turning, kicks are not functionally useful within
: > the context of Okinawan arts and they are also not present...
: Hmmm.... I think there are many people who study classical Okinawan
: Martial Arts would disagree with you on both counts.
I'd be VERY interested in a reference to were I can find a classical
(read pre-1900) kata that contains a jump turning kick.
I have learned several dozen kata and I have surveyed dozens of tapes of
well over 100+ Okinawan kata and not a jump turning kick in the lot...
I'm not saying there isn't one somewhere but I haven't seen it.
The closest I have seen is Suparinpei wich has a jumping kick and a
turning kick but no jumping, turning kicks...
Best Regards,
Ryan Parker
QUARK
>> : (Thanks for the kind words, Roger. I'm not particularly interested in
>> : "berating" Mr. Parker concerning the origins of the theory; I'm more
>> : interested in Mr. Parker's re-occuring theme of "my art has it all".
Ryan:
>> Actually, I think it is more accurate to say that my theme has been "if it
>> is functionally useful within the context of the art Okinawan styles have
>> it". For instance jump,turning, kicks are not functionally useful within
>> the context of Okinawan arts and they are also not present...
Fredrich:
>Hmmm.... I think there are many people who study classical Okinawan
>Martial Arts would disagree with you on both counts.
Q:
Absolutely. I want to post this on the list because we have largely had a
"gospel" of Okinawan karate thrown at us from two people, and it's
nice to hear some alternative views. Myself, I've flipped through my copy of
Uechiryu Karatedo and find some pictures of jumping front and side kicks.
Gee, Ryan, better tell the Uechiryu folks they're not "functional"...
Kanbun Uechi, in fact, added a jumping front kick sometimes when
demonstrating the kata Seisan (at the jump at the end of the kata). So much
for Ryan's sweeping statements about the *Okinawan karate gospel*...
More importantly, does a mindset that moves from "my art is complete in
itself" to "complete in the sense that everything functional is in it" really
demonstrate an open mind on one's art? While it is natural to be proud of
one's own style (I myself am proud of Japan Karate Association karate,
thats why I chose it), I question the wisdom of this kind of smugness. Let's
get out of the house once in awhile, shall we? As was once remarked by
Sherlock Holmes to Watson, "there are a great many things not accounted for by
your theory".
Q. "the guy with no knowledge of Okinawa" S.
Brad Webb
|> In article <3n7e41$g...@rainbow.rmii.com> s...@rmii.com (Stephen O Gombosi) writes:
|> >From: s...@rmii.com (Stephen O Gombosi)
|>
|>
|> S:
|> >This reminds me of a conversation between Omine Chotoku-sensei and one
|> >of his students about 20 years ago:
|> >Student: Sensei, if you wanted to kill someone where would you punch him?
|> >Omine-sensei: Anywhere.
|> >Student: Anywhere??????
|> >Omine-sensei: Anywhere. If you really know how to punch, it doesn't matter.
|>
|> Q:
|> Good story, and true too. However, one could just as easily use this to
|> illustrate the Shotokan concept of "one strike kill", and there ain't no
|> internal energy necesary there (albeit lots of waza). I'm not gonna let you
|> off the hook so easily! See ya,
|>
|> Q. "Damn Okinawaners are still up to their tricks" S.
|>
Great to hear from Steve. Loved the story. For the last several years
one of the things Nishiyama Sensei has mentioned in lecture/practice is being
careful about how you hit your partner. Not from a power standpoint,
but from a standpoint that if you do it right you will set up internal
shock waves in your partners body that will damage the organs.
Again, as in the story, it didn't matter specificly where you hit,
it was how you hit and the energy passed over.
--
B. Webb, Dallas, Tx.|B. Webb, Specialist. |NT doesn't claim my opinions,
Japan Shotokan |Northern Telecom,Inc.|I don't claim their opinions,
(214) 231-4922 |(214) 684-1737. |and ne'er the twain shall meet.
Std disclaimer: Blah Blah Blah!
Seek perfection of character.
Stephen O Gombosi
: also be helpful ..... kiko techniques don't fall outside of the laws of
...more than once ;-)
Steve
chil...@delphi.com
>: of theory. On the other hand there are few Chinese stylist that I have
>: heard of (OK, actually NONE) that can do what I do...
>
>fact I remember a tape from the 60's which showed a gathering in New York
>where some American martial artists performed exhibitions taking large
>blows to various parts of the body, including the testicles.
a Tai Chi practitioner from there took a full-power spinning heel kick from
a foot attached to a 200+ lb individual who was some famous student of jhoon
Rhee(well-known TKD teacher). It struck the guy in the neck and he dropped like
stone. To the great shock of the kicker the Tai Chi guy got up and asked to do
it again because he wasn't ready:^). The kicker said he didn't need to be con-
vinced a second time. This skill of taking full-power body blows is not common
but certainly not unique even in this country. Probably more significant is the
ability of the striker to really transfer or release power efficiently and in a
short burst. This skill seems to be at least as uncommon.