Royce Gracie forfeits UFC III :- (
Brian Baltzell
>UFC 4 should be real interesting. I also think some kind of feud is going to
>brew between Kimo and the Gracies. The Gi worked against Royce this time so
>I'm guessing he may reconsider wearing it. A lot of surprises in UFC 3,
>I'm looking forward to UFC 4. Well, I'm off to get a fireproof suit ....
This one was interesting. Royce older brother (Rorion?) seemed very upset
after the match with Kimo. What was going on there? The Gi did work
against Royce. Do the Gracie's usually wear them in their challenge fights?
I'm glad I'm ging to IV. Could Rickson possibly replace Royce? I never
thought I'd be pulling for a Gracie, but my sifu and I both were in his
fight against Kimo. This wa the most intense fight I've seen. Mike maybe
you could break down the fight for us? Maybe Kimo psyched Royce out?
He was very crazy. What do you think Rickson would do against him.
Shamrock and his manager both seemed pissed. My guess is a groin injury
on Shamrocks part, even though they didn't say. I don't think Shamrock
expected such a better level of compitition.
Has anyone seen this Kimo guy before? He was a nut. I'm hopping for
Kimo and Rickson in the one in Tulsa, I can't wait.
Brian:
Michael Dash
continue in UFC 3 and forfeited to Harold Howard. I don't know what was
wrong with him, but I'll try to find out. Here's a summary of what happened:
PRELIMINARY
Yarbrough vs Hackney:
Hackney won this one. Yarbrough fell to the floor a couple of times and
while he was on his knees Hackney kept smashing him in the back of the head
until he tapped out.
Shamrock vs Leininger:
This was a good fight. The fight went to the ground with shamrock in
Leininger'r guard (between his legs). It was pretty even until they ended up
against the fence with Shamrock on top. Leininger was trapped under Shamrock
and against the fence and couldn't get away. Shamrock kept punching him until
he tapped out.
Payne vs Howard:
This fight started out good. Punches and kicks were thrown and Payne even
tried to take Howard to the ground a couple of times, but Howard countered.
Howard got a couple of clean shots to Payne's face and payne went down.
Gracie vs Kimo:
This fight quickly got into a clinch and up against the fence. Royce had a
very difficult time taking Kimo to the ground. Royce didn't look to well,
like he was up all night or something. Royce hit Kimo with several groin
shots as well. When it finally went to the ground,Kimo had a good hold of
Royce's Gi, pulling it over his head at times. Royce attampted an armbar,
but Kimo slid out of it. Kimo was able to hit Royce a couple of times
while they were fighting on the ground. Royce also tried a choke with his
legs, but was slow in applying it and Kimo was able to pull out of that.
Royce finally got an armbar on Kimo and made him tap. Royce seemed very
sluggish and tired the whole way through the fight. When Royce left the ring
he looked completely exhausted. As Royce was getting hugs from his brother,
Helio's eye's all of a sudden lit up and he started yelling towards the center
of the ring. Kimo must have done something to upset him, but don't know what
it when the ref raises Royce's hand you can see relson syaing something
directed at Kimo. Something happened but I don't know what it is yet.
Hackney witdraws due to hurting his hands on Yarbrough! He is replaced with
alternate Felix Mitchell.
SEMIFINALS
Mitchell vs Shamrock:
This fight quickly went into a clinch, and up against the fence. Shamrock
had a hard time getting Mitchell to the ground. Shamrock hit Mitchell in the
face several times and Mitchell kneed Shamrock in the groin several times.
They both seemed really exhausted. The fight finally went to the ground and
Shamrock was mounted on Mitchell's back and made him tap with a choke.
Shamrock left the ring limping.
Gracie vs Howard:
Both fighters made it to the ring, but Royce wasn't up to it. He chose not
to fight and forfeited the match and the championship. After the fighters
left the ring, Kimo and his manager ran into the ring raising their hands in
victory as if they wanted credit for taking Royce out of the fight.
Shamrock withdraws from the fight due to injuries and is replaced in the
finals with second alternate Steve Jennum.
FINALS
Howard vs Jennum:
This was a good fight with a lot of punches traded. Howard had Jennum in a
"guillotine" style choke (like Pat Smith vs Johnny Rhodes in UFC 2). Jennum
took the fight to thte ground to get out of the choke and they went back to
their feet again. After some blows were exchanged, Jennum took Howard to the
groundand mounted him. Jennum pounded Howard's face until he tapped out.
Jennum is the winner of UFC 3. I'm sure he's real surprised to go from
alternate to champion. Congrats for him.
Needless to say, I was shocked and disappointed that Royce couldn't finish.
I thought for sure Royce would beat Howard and meet Shamrock in the finals.
I'm sure I'll get flamed beyond all belief since Royce didn't go on to win
UFC 3, but I was also dissappointed that Shamrock couldn't continue. Even
though Howard and Jennum were good fighters, I don't think they would have
made it to the finals if Royce and Shamrock didn't pull out.
UFC 4 should be real interesting. I also think some kind of feud is going to
brew between Kimo and the Gracies. The Gi worked against Royce this time so
I'm guessing he may reconsider wearing it. A lot of surprises in UFC 3,
I'm looking forward to UFC 4. Well, I'm off to get a fireproof suit ....
M. Dash
Philip John Stroffolino
Samhain
(Michael Dash) wrote:
>
> Gracie vs Kimo:
> This fight quickly got into a clinch and up against the fence. Royce had a
> very difficult time taking Kimo to the ground. Royce didn't look to well,
> like he was up all night or something. Royce hit Kimo with several groin
> shots as well. When it finally went to the ground,Kimo had a good hold of
> Royce's Gi, pulling it over his head at times. Royce attampted an armbar,
> but Kimo slid out of it. Kimo was able to hit Royce a couple of times
> while they were fighting on the ground. Royce also tried a choke with his
> legs, but was slow in applying it and Kimo was able to pull out of that.
> Royce finally got an armbar on Kimo and made him tap. Royce seemed very
> sluggish and tired the whole way through the fight. When Royce left the ring
> he looked completely exhausted. As Royce was getting hugs from his brother,
> Helio's eye's all of a sudden lit up and he started yelling towards the
center
> of the ring. Kimo must have done something to upset him, but don't know what
> it when the ref raises Royce's hand you can see relson syaing something
> directed at Kimo. Something happened but I don't know what it is yet.
>
Maybe it's because Kimo decided, secretly, that he would not be paid
off. A breach of contract, perhaps? Someone was clearly yelling at Kimo
to "get out of the ring." There isn't a whole lot that the Gracies can do
in public. However, with their huge ties to the police, among others, I
would not be surprised to see Kimo have an unfortunate accident. *"There
were two bullets you bastards!"* :) Think about, though. A family with
that huge an attitude for being bad asses and not being murdered, or even
shot at? See the Gracie man as he mounts the gunman's hands... applies
the choke... see, he's coming now... and the fight is over... and the
Gracie man gives the gunman back his kleenex.
> Needless to say, I was shocked and disappointed that Royce couldn't finish.
> I thought for sure Royce would beat Howard and meet Shamrock in the finals.
> I'm sure I'll get flamed beyond all belief since Royce didn't go on to win
> UFC 3, but I was also dissappointed that Shamrock couldn't continue. Even
> though Howard and Jennum were good fighters, I don't think they would have
> made it to the finals if Royce and Shamrock didn't pull out.
>
> UFC 4 should be real interesting. I also think some kind of feud is going to
> brew between Kimo and the Gracies. The Gi worked against Royce this time so
> I'm guessing he may reconsider wearing it. A lot of surprises in UFC 3,
> I'm looking forward to UFC 4. Well, I'm off to get a fireproof suit ....
>
>
> M. Dash
The oldest trick in the WWF book. Huge hype, grudge match, "I'm gonna
beat you and you're sister too". Only, instead of both fighters being
DQ'ed and unable to settle their differences in the next PPV event 3
months away, both participants threw in the towel. Strangely enough, the
WWF has had a huge family feud that's been going on for over a year, if
not more. Curioser and curioser.
One more bit of non-information. The black guy on the cover of "In
Action II" works out in the same gym as I do. He's a Gracie student
(maybe a black belt, I really don't know). Anyway, he believes the UFC to
be completely real. Unnecessary credentials(?) aside, he also states that
the Gracies set up who fights who ahead of time. No random draw, as is
promoted. Not that it matters...
Nobby Barnacles
: In article <dashms.18...@earthlink.net>, das...@earthlink.net
: (Michael Dash) wrote:
: > while they were fighting on the ground. Royce also tried a choke with his
: > legs, but was slow in applying it and Kimo was able to pull out of that.
what i couldn't believe was that Royce seemed to get himself a mount on
Kimo but Kimo just pushed him off! I couldn't believe it! I didn't see
DeLucia doing this. Plus Kimo got two headbutts in on Royce!
: > Royce finally got an armbar on Kimo and made him tap. Royce seemed very
: > sluggish and tired the whole way through the fight. When Royce left the ring
: > he looked completely exhausted. As Royce was getting hugs from his brother,
: > Helio's eye's all of a sudden lit up and he started yelling towards the
: center
: > of the ring. Kimo must have done something to upset him, but don't know what
: > it when the ref raises Royce's hand you can see relson syaing something
: > directed at Kimo. Something happened but I don't know what it is yet.
just reviewed this and can't say much since the camera is not focused on
Kimo at the time. But Kimo is panting heavily throughout and I wonder it's
just Helio upset at the match in general. The Gracies have conducted
themselves graciously whenever Royce prevailed. If Helio's action is
based on nothing improper Kimo did, I find him to be just well hysterical
and hypocritical.
: Maybe it's because Kimo decided, secretly, that he would not be paid
: off. A breach of contract, perhaps? Someone was clearly yelling at Kimo
: to "get out of the ring." There isn't a whole lot that the Gracies can do
I didn't see anyone yeling at Kimo when he actually fought GRacie; he
was yelled at later for making his unwanted appearance.
: in public. However, with their huge ties to the police, among others, I
: would not be surprised to see Kimo have an unfortunate accident. *"There
do you have any evidence of this? What I have to say though is this: we
repeatedly saw the Gracies position themselves outside the Octagon and
coach him ... they seem to position themselves strategically around the
Octagon. Are members of Royce's opponent's entourage allowed equal
access? I also saw one Gracie lean above the Octagon to cheer Royce on:
half of his body was in the ring! And we saw Rorion get upset and
lean forward or approach the octagon after the Kimo match. Why? He's
said before that if Royce loses, he would congratulate the victor and the
event will go on with no hitch.
Now I don't doubt that the event is real but we already have one Gracie
clan who is a Gracie practitioner and a promoter of this event. It's not
the even'ts legitimacy but the appearnce of any conflict of interest which
the Gracies should try to avoid in their behavior outside and around teh
Octagon. This goes same for the Gracie geezer.
Samhain
Barnacles) wrote:
> Samhain (none) wrote:
>
> : Maybe it's because Kimo decided, secretly, that he would not be paid
> : off. A breach of contract, perhaps? Someone was clearly yelling at Kimo
> : to "get out of the ring." There isn't a whole lot that the Gracies can do
>
> I didn't see anyone yeling at Kimo when he actually fought GRacie; he
> was yelled at later for making his unwanted appearance.
The yelling I was refering to was after the match when you can clearly
hear "GET OUT OF THE RING!" several times.
>
> : in public. However, with their huge ties to the police, among others, I
> : would not be surprised to see Kimo have an unfortunate accident. *"There
>
> do you have any evidence of this? What I have to say though is this: we
> repeatedly saw the Gracies position themselves outside the Octagon and
> coach him ... they seem to position themselves strategically around the
> Octagon. Are members of Royce's opponent's entourage allowed equal
> access? I also saw one Gracie lean above the Octagon to cheer Royce on:
> half of his body was in the ring! And we saw Rorion get upset and
> lean forward or approach the octagon after the Kimo match. Why? He's
> said before that if Royce loses, he would congratulate the victor and the
> event will go on with no hitch.
>
The Gracies teach many police officers, my uncle is one of them.
Jiu-jitsu was also taught to officers in NY. My friend's cousin (a NY
officer) brought an instructor from Japan to teach. The instructor was
protected not only by his students themselves, but, also the fact that a
huge majority of the students were officers. My friend still recalls an
incident when over a dozen men in Gi's raced out with guns and rifles to
greet an unwelcome visitor. When you've got the reputation and attitude
of the Gracies and you're not blown away, there's a reason for it. Think
about it. Maybe it's because I go to school in South Central, I've grown
up in the area where the L.A. gang scene began, and other various
bullshit. But, when you see people getting shot like nothing you tend to
wonder about people like the Gracies not getting killed.
> Now I don't doubt that the event is real but we already have one Gracie
> clan who is a Gracie practitioner and a promoter of this event. It's not
> the even'ts legitimacy but the appearnce of any conflict of interest which
> the Gracies should try to avoid in their behavior outside and around teh
> Octagon. This goes same for the Gracie geezer.
Watch for flames. Your views have already been stated, and the Gracie
groupies tend to flame immediately. Note how they don't flame when
someone restates how Gracie JJ is undefeatable; as if we need to hear
(read) that again.
Paul Powell
: very difficult time taking Kimo to the ground. Royce didn't look to well,
Please! Why not just admit he had his hands full.
: Royce finally got an armbar on Kimo and made him tap. Royce seemed very
: sluggish and tired the whole way through the fight. When Royce left the
Maybe he was tired due to the "Kimo Therapy"
: Helio's eye's all of a sudden lit up and he started yelling towards the
: of the ring. Kimo must have done something to upset him, but don't know
: it when the ref raises Royce's hand you can see relson syaing something
: directed at Kimo. Something happened but I don't know what it is yet.
I would guess they paid Kimo to be a lame duck and he change his mind.
: left the ring, Kimo and his manager ran into the ring raising their hands
: victory as if they wanted credit for taking Royce out of the fight.
Well who else landed a punch?
: FINALS
: Howard vs Jennum:
: though Howard and Jennum were good fighters, I don't think they would have
: made it to the finals if Royce and Shamrock didn't pull out.
What do you mean on another night? If Royce and Shamrock did not pull
out these guys would have killed them! Royce and Shamrock were HURT, is
it so hard to say that the better man won?
R,
Paul Powell
Craig
: be completely real. Unnecessary credentials(?) aside, he also states that
: the Gracies set up who fights who ahead of time. No random draw, as is
: promoted. Not that it matters...
If this is true then the UFC is a sham. There should be random drawing like
is advertised.
--
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
// Only believe in quality: \\
\\ 1)AT&T, Motorola/Codex, Multi-Tech, //
// Telebit, ZyXEL. \\
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Nobby Barnacles
: > I didn't see anyone yeling at Kimo when he actually fought GRacie; he
: The yelling I was refering to was after the match when you can clearly
: hear "GET OUT OF THE RING!" several times.
I just reviewed the tape and heard that. The ref is yelling at Kimo's
manager who had entered the ring. You'll see his pigtailed head as he
obeys the ref's order and gets out. What the hell is this all about?
Meantime Royce is surrounded by his Pop and his usual handlers. Why can't
Kimo have his manager in the ring?
Why this harsh treatment of Kimo's manager during and after the fight?
What the hell did he do?
I mean this contrasts sharply with the way Royce's handlers surrounded
Delucia, Pardot and Pat Smith and offered them "congratulations" after
they had been successively defeated in UFC II. I can never forget the
moving comment by that hair boy after the UFC II Final: "This is a
beautiful sight. The Gracie clan is surrounding Patrick Smith and
offering congratulations. They are all WONDERFUL human beings!"
Wonderful as long as Royce wins (and wins easily), it seems.
After seeing Helio go bonkers after the Kimo match, and the inexplicable
banishment of Kimo's manager, we have to say: there is no grace from this
Gracie clan under pressure.
Michael Dash
>Samhain (none) wrote:
>: be completely real. Unnecessary credentials(?) aside, he also states that
>: the Gracies set up who fights who ahead of time. No random draw, as is
>: promoted. Not that it matters...
>If this is true then the UFC is a sham. There should be random drawing like
>is advertised.
There is a random drawing and it is usually on the news in the local area that
the UFC is being held. They showed scenes from the press conference where the
random draw was held. Samhain got some bad information and wasn't watching
UFC III close enough.
M. Dash
Brian Kholdi
: what i couldn't believe was that Royce seemed to get himself a mount on
: Kimo but Kimo just pushed him off! I couldn't believe it! I didn't see
: DeLucia doing this. Plus Kimo got two headbutts in on Royce!
It took Royce for ever to get Kimo on the ground, and when he did,
Kimo got a dangerous mount on him which used up Royce's energy
even more to get Kimo off of him. I'm not at all surprised that
Kimo threw Royce off while Royce was mounted on him. I'm
very surprised that Royce missed on the arm-bar immediately after.
I think it was a combination of sweat/exhaustion/possibly injury.
In fact, I doubt Royce would've got the final arm-bar had it
not been for Kimo's taped wrist. Royce would've beat him one
way or another though.
- Brian
Brian Kholdi
following the fight is because the referee repeatedly yelled at him
to get the hell away during the fight. Kimo's manager kept running
over, shouting instructions to Kimo. He was the all-time weasle
of the UFCs in my opinion. No class whatsover.
- Brian
Nick Flor
>Kimo at the time. But Kimo is panting heavily throughout and I wonder it's
>just Helio upset at the match in general. The Gracies have conducted
>themselves graciously whenever Royce prevailed. If Helio's action is
>based on nothing improper Kimo did, I find him to be just well hysterical
>and hypocritical.
>
I think they were yelling at Kimo's manager. I also heard the ref(?)
scream something like: "get out of the ring, get out of the ring" at
about the time Helio was getting upset. Afterwards the camera briefly
showed what looked like Kimo's manager walking out of the ring.
So my guess is that Kimo's manager got in the ring to do some
WWF style promotion, and that's what got Helio upset.
But I could be wrong.
Nick
***** The opinions expressed above are my own and not necessarily UCSD's *****
Nick V. Flor | E-MAIL: | o----o----o
The Department of Cognitive Science | fl...@cogsci.ucsd.edu | /X\__/X\__/X\
University of California, San Diego | ni...@sdd.hp.com | / \ / \ / \
GORDON ALLEN R
>das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) writes:
>
>Shamrock and his manager both seemed pissed. My guess is a groin injury
>on Shamrocks part, even though they didn't say. I don't think Shamrock
>expected such a better level of compitition.
He didn't have an easy time against Leininger!
>Has anyone seen this Kimo guy before? He was a nut. I'm hopping for
>Kimo and Rickson in the one in Tulsa, I can't wait.
What style of TKD does KImo practice? His instincts sure aren't TKD!
>Brian:
--
Allen Gordon *If the folly of but one of us was changed to*
University of Colorado *intelligence, and divided amongst a thousand*
gor...@spot.colorado.edu *toads, each would be more intelligent than *
*Aristotle *
GORDON ALLEN R
>: left the ring, Kimo and his manager ran into the ring raising their hands
>: victory as if they wanted credit for taking Royce out of the fight.
>Well who else landed a punch?
Kimo quickly forgot that had he not tapped out, he would have had an arm that
bent in the wrong direction. Short memory? Maybe he's taking steroids for
Jesus.
>: FINALS
>: Howard vs Jennum:
>: though Howard and Jennum were good fighters, I don't think they would have
>: made it to the finals if Royce and Shamrock didn't pull out.
>What do you mean on another night? If Royce and Shamrock did not pull
>out these guys would have killed them! Royce and Shamrock were HURT, is
>it so hard to say that the better man won?
For one thing, Howard's no jujutsu man. He's a puncher and he got taken down
by a jujutsu move!
>R,
>Paul Powell
GORDON ALLEN R
>In article <34tbd5$5...@panix2.panix.com> sie...@panix.com (Nobby Barnacles) writes:
>: what i couldn't believe was that Royce seemed to get himself a mount on
>: Kimo but Kimo just pushed him off! I couldn't believe it! I didn't see
>: DeLucia doing this. Plus Kimo got two headbutts in on Royce!
>It took Royce for ever to get Kimo on the ground, and when he did,
>Kimo got a dangerous mount on him which used up Royce's energy
>even more to get Kimo off of him. I'm not at all surprised that
>Kimo threw Royce off while Royce was mounted on him. I'm
>very surprised that Royce missed on the arm-bar immediately after.
>I think it was a combination of sweat/exhaustion/possibly injury.
>In fact, I doubt Royce would've got the final arm-bar had it
>not been for Kimo's taped wrist. Royce would've beat him one
>way or another though.
>- Brian
It was obvious to me and other judo folks watching this match that Kimo had
'some' knowledge of grappling. He seemed to know more about grappling than
TKD. He also seems like a pretty strong guy-250#(?) at 5% body fat?
--
Nick Doan
|> pjpo...@marlin.ssnet.com (Paul Powell) writes:
|>
|>
|> >: left the ring, Kimo and his manager ran into the ring raising their hands
|> >: victory as if they wanted credit for taking Royce out of the fight.
|>
|>
|> >Well who else landed a punch?
|>
|> Kimo quickly forgot that had he not tapped out, he would have had an arm that
|> bent in the wrong direction. Short memory? Maybe he's taking steroids for
|> Jesus.
|>
|>
You may not like the guy or his wbehavior, but it is unethical and unlawful
to brand him a drug user.
|> >: FINALS
|>
|> >: Howard vs Jennum:
|>
|> >: though Howard and Jennum were good fighters, I don't think they would have
|> >: made it to the finals if Royce and Shamrock didn't pull out.
|>
|> >What do you mean on another night? If Royce and Shamrock did not pull
|> >out these guys would have killed them! Royce and Shamrock were HURT, is
|> >it so hard to say that the better man won?
|>
|> For one thing, Howard's no jujutsu man. He's a puncher and he got taken down
|> by a jujutsu move!
|> >R,
|> >Paul Powell
|>
|> --
|> Allen Gordon *If the folly of but one of us was changed to*
|> University of Colorado *intelligence, and divided amongst a thousand*
|> gor...@spot.colorado.edu *toads, each would be more intelligent than *
|> *Aristotle *
Howard looked like a brawler to me too, but that does not mean his isn't
a juijitsu man. When I was attending a DZR school, our instructor was a big
man, ex-military, realistic combat type. His favorite line was "if you can
shake and bake...light the guy up." Howard was an effective fighter. He has
won a few championships in Canada, and he did better than I could do in the UFC.
I wouldn't pass judgement on him beyond saying that he wasn't using very
graceful techniques.
Nick Doan.
--
- There is no joy in having nothing to do.
Joy comes from having a lot to do, and not doing it.
ni...@meaddata.com or do...@ddt.eng.uc.edu
Nobby Barnacles
: Also note that the WWF has "random" drawings. I, personally, don't see
Now didn't Howard supposedly get upset when he learned Shamrock was seeded
#1? This is according to the announcer: does this mean those seeded #1
and #2 were placed into separate brackets and the rest were randomly
drawn? If not, why did Mr. Hair Boy broach this?
We do know that Shamrock and Royce would have met in the final had they
not withdrawn. But Shamrock also faced arguably the most credentialed
fighter to enter this thing: Chris Lenninger. He would have also faced
Yarborough had Yarborough won his match as expected. If you ignore Kimo
(whose skills were totally unkonw and dimissed by many as ready-made for
Royce), Shamrock had the toughest road to hoe. His chances of defeating
Royce would have been greatly reduced after having faced these two.
WOW needs to restate its random draw policy: after all, in UFCI, the draws
were deliberately made to provide "most spectacular clashing of styles,"
according to WOW promoters.
Samhain
(Michael Dash) wrote:
Only stating what I'd heard. Are you closer to the Gracies than the
student who is on the cover of their video? Just curious.
Also note that the WWF has "random" drawings. I, personally, don't see
how those wrestlers can remember all of the choreography required for
random matches. Random drawings can be, and have been, set up before.
Just because it's on the LOCAL news doesn't mean it's real...
And what makes you think I wasn't watching close enough? Didn't you
hear "GET OUT OF THE RING!"? Didn't you see pre-fight interviews where
Royce and Shamrock were bad-mouthing each other? Didn't you seee the WWF
style cross that Kimo brought into the ring? Please explain which event
did I not watch closely enough.
Open your mind. The eyes see... Anyway, enough with the damn flames.
Just discuss your point, read the replies, blah blah blah.
Brandon Kiely
Samhain (None) wrote:
: > I didn't see anyone yeling at Kimo when he actually fought GRacie; he
: > was yelled at later for making his unwanted appearance.
: The yelling I was refering to was after the match when you can clearly
: hear "GET OUT OF THE RING!" several times.
If you watch them fighting when they are against the cage, Kimo's manager
right against the cage yelling stuff into the fighter's ears (didn't hear
what was said), and the ref had to shout at the manager at least twice
to get him away from the cage.
In fact, if you watch the begining of the match, as the cammera shot was
on Kimo as he was focussing only on Royce, his manager is proped up against
the fence yelling to Royce "You're goin' down!" or "You're finished!".
At the end of the fight, the Ref was yelling at the Gracie clan to get
out of the ring (they were attending to Royce), and you can see Helio
get pissed off and yell at the Ref for demanding them to leave.
And finaly: it seemed Kimo's manager took more credit in the octagon for
beating Royce then Kimo did -- what was that all about? Personaly, I would
like to see him in the ring with Royce in UFC 4.
To be honest, I would like to see big brother Rickson show Kimo and his
manager what GJJ is all about...
Enough said
Michael Dash
>In article <dashms.19...@earthlink.net>, das...@earthlink.net
>(Michael Dash) wrote:
>> In article <trackerC...@netcom.com> tra...@netcom.com (Craig) writes:
>>
>> >Samhain (none) wrote:
>> >: be completely real. Unnecessary credentials(?) aside, he also states that
>> >: the Gracies set up who fights who ahead of time. No random draw, as is
>> >: promoted. Not that it matters...
>>
>> >If this is true then the UFC is a sham. There should be random drawing like
>> >is advertised.
>>
>> There is a random drawing and it is usually on the news in the local
>area that
>> the UFC is being held. They showed scenes from the press conference
>where the
>> random draw was held. Samhain got some bad information and wasn't watching
>> UFC III close enough.
>>
>> M. Dash
> Only stating what I'd heard. Are you closer to the Gracies than the
>student who is on the cover of their video? Just curious.
I'm closer to WOW and the goings on of the UFC.
> Also note that the WWF has "random" drawings. I, personally, don't see
>how those wrestlers can remember all of the choreography required for
>random matches. Random drawings can be, and have been, set up before.
>Just because it's on the LOCAL news doesn't mean it's real...
I don't know what to tell you. Why don't you ask the fighters themsleves?
The matchups were randomly selected.
> And what makes you think I wasn't watching close enough? Didn't you
>hear "GET OUT OF THE RING!"?
Yes I heard. That's because the manager was acting improperly (making
some kind of gestures) inside the ring so the ref threw him out. Since
this happened off camera, the viewer doesn't know why the ref was
throwing him out. Helio and Relson were in there seeing after Royce, which
was their job there.
>Didn't you see pre-fight interviews where
>Royce and Shamrock were bad-mouthing each other?
You're confusing the commercials for UFC 3 as interviews. Now that was
acting. They do the same thing with boxing. All it is is pre-fight hype.
>Didn't you seee the WWF style cross that Kimo brought into the ring?
When has the WWF ever had someone carry a cross on their back? Your phrase
"WWF style cross" makes no sense. WWF wouldn't take the chance of offending
its religious audience. Kimo carried a cross cause he's a nut. I'm sure more
Christians were disgusted by what he did than flattered
>Please explain which event did I not watch closely enough.
I made that statement because the press conference was shown during UFC III
and they talked about the random draw.
> Open your mind. The eyes see... Anyway, enough with the damn flames.
>Just discuss your point, read the replies, blah blah blah.
What flames? Countering someone's statement isn't a flame.
M. Dash
Albert J Parent
Kiely) wrote:
>
> To be honest, I would like to see big brother Rickson show Kimo and his
> manager what GJJ is all about...
>
> Enough said
I'd love to see that too, but I have trouble using the best practicioneer
in the art showing how good the art is. At that point you are basically
showing off the skill of that individual.
Do the Aikidoka use M Ueshiba (O Sensei) to show that if you know Aikido
you can't be touched, let alone hurt in combat?
just my 2 cents.
Albert Parent
Michael Dash
>Samhain (None) wrote:
>: Also note that the WWF has "random" drawings. I, personally, don't see
>Now didn't Howard supposedly get upset when he learned Shamrock was seeded
>#1? This is according to the announcer: does this mean those seeded #1
>and #2 were placed into separate brackets and the rest were randomly
>drawn? If not, why did Mr. Hair Boy broach this?
Since UFC 3 was advertised as a rematch between Royce and Ken Shamrock, they
put Royce in fight #4 and Ken in fight #2 ensuring that the only way they
would meet is in the final. Their opponents, as well as the other matchups
were randomly drawn. All they did was rule out the possibility of Royce and
Ken facing each other in the preliminary or the semi-final.
>We do know that Shamrock and Royce would have met in the final had they
>not withdrawn. But Shamrock also faced arguably the most credentialed
>fighter to enter this thing: Chris Lenninger. He would have also faced
>Yarborough had Yarborough won his match as expected. If you ignore Kimo
>(whose skills were totally unkonw and dimissed by many as ready-made for
>Royce), Shamrock had the toughest road to hoe. His chances of defeating
>Royce would have been greatly reduced after having faced these two.
You're making big assumptions. The fact is Yarbrough didn't make it.
Yabrough could have easily ended up in fight #3 instead of fight #1,
potentially facing Royce in the semifinal.
>WOW needs to restate its random draw policy: after all, in UFCI, the draws
>were deliberately made to provide "most spectacular clashing of styles,"
>according to WOW promoters.
Too many people complained that WOW selection of matchups is unfair and that
the only fair way is random draw. As far as I'm concerned, the fighters need
to be prepared to fight any combination of three fighter, and assume that the
returning champ will fight last in the preliminaries.
M. Dash
Thomas B Valesky
> In article <gordon.7...@horton.Colorado.EDU> gor...@horton.Colorado.EDU (GORDON ALLEN R) writes:
> >From: gor...@horton.Colorado.EDU (GORDON ALLEN R)
> >Subject: Re: Royce Gracie forfeits UFC III :- (
> >Date: 12 Sep 94 14:13:56 GMT
> >>Has anyone seen this Kimo guy before? He was a nut. I'm hopping for
> >>Kimo and Rickson in the one in Tulsa, I can't wait.
> >What style of TKD does KImo practice? His instincts sure aren't TKD!
> >>Brian:
> What praytell are TKD instincts?
Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Punch. :-)
--
Tom Valesky
Programmer/Analyst C/C++/SQL
"Thank you. Drive through."
frank...@sandiegoca.ncr.com
>From: gor...@horton.Colorado.EDU (GORDON ALLEN R)
>Subject: Re: Royce Gracie forfeits UFC III :- (
>Date: 12 Sep 94 14:13:56 GMT
>>Has anyone seen this Kimo guy before? He was a nut. I'm hopping for
>>Kimo and Rickson in the one in Tulsa, I can't wait.
>What style of TKD does KImo practice? His instincts sure aren't TKD!
>>Brian:
What praytell are TKD instincts?
frank...@sandiegoca.ncr.com
>Action II" works out in the same gym as I do. He's a Gracie student
>(maybe a black belt, I really don't know). Anyway, he believes the UFC to
>be completely real. Unnecessary credentials(?) aside, he also states that
>the Gracies set up who fights who ahead of time. No random draw, as is
>promoted. Not that it matters...
Maybe it does matter. Maybe the Gracies gave Royce the TKD guy Kimo thinking
they would get an easy mark. They put Shamrock with Leniger to wear him out.
They suppose that Royce will win easily and Shamrock will be tired. Shamrock
draws Yarborough and wins/loses but the victor is very tired. Royce gets a
Thai boxer who he can take to the ground or Howard who is too slow for Royce.
Royce and Shamrock go for the championship but Shamrock is more beat up.
Didn't work did it Royce.
frank...@sandiegoca.ncr.com
Clearly the Gracies are the controlling power beneath it all. I bet if that
ref tossed Helio out that he would not work another UFC.
I also bet that Kimo won't be back. Won't be let back. If he is let back look
for his card to include the toughest fighters.
QUARK
>From: cyeo...@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
>Subject: Re: Royce Gracie forfeits UFC III :- (
>In article <ajp-1309...@aparent.mitre.org>,
>Albert J Parent <a...@mbunix.mitre.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>I'd love to see that too, but I have trouble using the best practicioneer
>>in the art showing how good the art is. At that point you are basically
>>showing off the skill of that individual.
>>
>>Do the Aikidoka use M Ueshiba (O Sensei) to show that if you know Aikido
>>you can't be touched, let alone hurt in combat?
>>
>Hell, yes. It is a lot easier and more undisputable than
>one of us living aikidoka doing it.
>If someone wants to fight me, I tell them about O-sensei and
>how dangerous he was. If that's not enough, I start
>reciting some doka at them. Puts them away every time.
>In fact, I'll bet your eyelids are starting to droop...
>Charles Yeomans
No
QUARK
>>Do the Aikidoka use M Ueshiba (O Sensei) to show that if you know Aikido
>>you can't be touched, let alone hurt in combat?
>>
>Hell, yes. It is a lot easier and more undisputable than
>one of us living aikidoka doing it.
>If someone wants to fight me, I tell them about O-sensei and
>how dangerous he was. If that's not enough, I start
>reciting some doka at them. Puts them away every time.
>In fact, I'll bet your eyelids are starting to droop...
>Charles Yeomans
No, I love O Sensei stories. Now if you give me Steven Seagull crappola,
yes, my eyelids will droop quickly...
D'Kixk
>>: be completely real. Unnecessary credentials(?) aside, he also states that
>>: the Gracies set up who fights who ahead of time. No random draw, as is
>>: promoted. Not that it matters...
In article <trackerC...@netcom.com> tra...@netcom.com (Craig) writes:
>>If this is true then the UFC is a sham. There should be random drawing like
>>is advertised.
In article <dashms.19...@earthlink.net>,
Michael Dash <das...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>There is a random drawing and it is usually on the news in the local area that
>the UFC is being held. They showed scenes from the press conference where the
>random draw was held. Samhain got some bad information and wasn't watching
>UFC III close enough.
Despite M. Dash's rather extravagent claims about what we should all
conclude afer watching UFCs, I do have to say that it sure looks like they
are really pummeling each other. I doubt that it's a sham. [shrug]. Not
liek it really matters much anyway, though, 'cause the UFC is not the
Only True Test Of Martial Arts Skill. But, give credit where credit is
due -- the UFC is not the WWF.
--
[] Damien Kick
[] Marquette University
[] Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
Razor Ric
two basic groups who watch the UFC events, those like myself who watch for
the pure entertainment value and those who watch for the techniques and
skills. Since I don't really care about the skills and moves as much as
the entertainment I can say unequivocally that the Gracies suck and I wish
the promoters of the UFC's would modify the rules to do away TOTALLY with
the submission rules. Just how exciting do you think it is to sit and
watch a couple of guys twist each others arm?? It's reminescent of
playground melee's between 5 year olds!!! If it's a fight, then fight!!!
kick ass, punch heads, etc.
Unfortunately I think the Gracies are pretty much responsible for the
UFC's so they probably hand a heavy hand in setting the rules.
Now you lacy Gracie groupies may flame away, but I still contend from an
entertainment perspective you can't deny me.
Samhain
(Michael Dash) wrote:
> >Didn't you see pre-fight interviews where
> >Royce and Shamrock were bad-mouthing each other?
>
> You're confusing the commercials for UFC 3 as interviews. Now that was
> acting. They do the same thing with boxing. All it is is pre-fight hype.
You can tell the difference between smack and and acting in real boxing
events. There is also a consistency before and after a boxing match that
show real hatred between the two fighters. The acting was way too lame in
the UFC crap. Real competitors hold on to their feud. They don't hug and
act happy as Shamrock did in the first UFC or show any respect for their
opponent as he did in the second (during the interview).
>
> >Didn't you seee the WWF style cross that Kimo brought into the ring?
>
> When has the WWF ever had someone carry a cross on their back? Your phrase
> "WWF style cross" makes no sense. WWF wouldn't take the chance of offending
> its religious audience. Kimo carried a cross cause he's a nut. I'm
sure more
> Christians were disgusted by what he did than flattered
Check back a few years in the WWF when they made a mockery of
televangelists with the host known as "Brother Love". He claimed to be a
minister of God. The current popularity of the Undertaker and his powers
of darkness and death shouldn't make much of an impression on Christians,
should it? "WWF style cross" refers to the costumes and gimmicks that
wrestlers bring to the ring, like Jake "the Snake" Roberts' snake, the
Undertaker's urn, Bret Hart's shades, etc. So it makes a lot more sense
than you are able to comprehend. Flattery has nothing to do with
anything. There has to be a "bad guy", or no one cares who wins. Since
the Gracies set everything up, it makes sense that Royce is presented as
the "good guy" and everyone else as the "bad guy". You make no sense at
all. Your arguments look very desperate. You're reaching way too far
with worthless points.
>
> >Please explain which event did I not watch closely enough.
>
> I made that statement because the press conference was shown during UFC III
> and they talked about the random draw.
Ooooh! They talked about a random draw. That means that there must
have really been a random draw. Being closer to the production company
only shows that you are closer to the people who create the hype through
lies and deception.
>
> > Open your mind. The eyes see... Anyway, enough with the damn flames.
> >Just discuss your point, read the replies, blah blah blah.
>
> What flames? Countering someone's statement isn't a flame.
>
Ok, then you don't know anything about what you're talking about. Your
statements are completely wrong because I think I know everything. Oh
wait, that's your argument. Nevermind...
>
> M. Dash
Todd Rubano
Tom, You've gotten it wrong! It's actually...
Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Kick. Punch (No, that won't work) Kick. :-
Charles Yeomans
>in the art showing how good the art is. At that point you are basically
>showing off the skill of that individual.
>
>Do the Aikidoka use M Ueshiba (O Sensei) to show that if you know Aikido
>you can't be touched, let alone hurt in combat?
>
Hell, yes. It is a lot easier and more undisputable than
DIsrael
(I'm not including the other posts, we all know what they said...)
Couple of things. First, about the draw:
1. The draw 'appears' to be tailored so that Gracie and Shamrock met in
the finals.
2. The draw 'appears' to come out that Shamrock would have the hardest
road into the finals (as opposed to Gracie)
NOTE: I (Most all of us actually) don't REALLY know what happened with
the draw (set up/drawn/seeded, etc...) so I am not giving accusations...
Mike Dash! Since you seem to have some sort of link to WOW and the UFC,
maybe you can forward the idea that they should do the draw on the PPV
just prior to the event. Maybe they can seed if they want (Show the
brackets with the seeds already in) and then have someone move through the
arena and have random people select the contestants for the rest of the
brackets. This would put an end all to this.
Now, about Royce losing/forfeiting his match. Just some thoughts here (no
particular order):
These are all preceded with: IMHO
1. Royce Gracie was not in top shape. He was moving slow from the get
go.
2. I did not think that he was ever in serious danger with Kimo. His
only problem was that Kimo was so big and strong that it was difficult to
counter the strength (see 1. above) in his condition. As for the size of
Kimo, I don't think Royce would've had much problem had he been in top
condition.
3. According to any other fighting sport (Judo, Boxing, etc) when the
opponent enters the contest area and throws in the towel, it is a
submission, period. The fight is listed as having taken place, and a win
and a loss are both awarded. If the person does not enter the fighting
area (ring, mat, octagon, whatever) the fight is NOT listed as taking
place. I have seen at many MA tournaments where someone decides to quit
for medical reasons, they encourage the person to go out and bow to the
opponent. This is because, once you go bow and allow the match to be
awarded, the other person gets a WIN, which many school record for
promotional purposes.
4. Had Royce been in top shape, I predict:
a. His match with Kimo would have been shorter
b. He would have beaten Howard
c. If he met Shamrock in the final, it would have been interesting,
but I think that he would have beaten either Shamrock or Jennum
regardless.
5. Point #4 is moot since that is NOT what happened. Maybe Royce can
come back in UFC 4 and show that this one was a fluke ?
I am beginning to ramble, so I'll stop now.
-Izz
Samhain
Yeomans) wrote:
Over here, if you want to talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk.
Senseless bullshit, but, it keeps the petty arguments down to a minimum.
Who our instructors are means very little in terms of what kind of martial
artists we are. Put on the gloves or get out the mat (sometimes) and show
what you mean--talk is cheap. It's all in good nature, with us anyway.
Considering a few of my buddies are over 6 feet tall and over 200 lb.s it
has to be. Especially in the wrestling. :) I haven't been seriously
hurt, yet...
Michael Dash
>(I'm not including the other posts, we all know what they said...)
>Couple of things. First, about the draw:
>1. The draw 'appears' to be tailored so that Gracie and Shamrock met in
>the finals.
Royce and Shamrock were bracketed so that they could not meet before the final
>2. The draw 'appears' to come out that Shamrock would have the hardest
>road into the finals (as opposed to Gracie)
Besides the fact that Royce and Shamrock were bracketed to avoid them meeting
before the final, all matchups were randomly drawn. Royce sould have easily
drawn Shamrock's opponents. That's the luck of the draw. However, I don't
aggree that Shamrock had a harder road. Kimo and Howard are as tough a road
as Shamrock had.
>NOTE: I (Most all of us actually) don't REALLY know what happened with
>the draw (set up/drawn/seeded, etc...) so I am not giving accusations...
>Mike Dash! Since you seem to have some sort of link to WOW and the UFC,
>maybe you can forward the idea that they should do the draw on the PPV
>just prior to the event. Maybe they can seed if they want (Show the
>brackets with the seeds already in) and then have someone move through the
>arena and have random people select the contestants for the rest of the
>brackets. This would put an end all to this.
Actually, I really like this idea and I will forward it.
I will send a copy of your post to WOW today.
M. Dash
Brian Baltzell
In article <frank.moore....@SanDiegoCa.NCR.COM>, frank...@SanDiegoCa.NCR.COM writes:
a
> [Theory about fights being set up deleted]
> Didn't work did it Royce.
That's all very nice frank, and for once you did more than add one sentence
to a followup, but there is a random draw held beforehand. Only in the first
were the matches set up, and that was done to pair interesting fighters together.
In that one Royce got to fight both Shamrock and the skinhead savate guy.
Brian
Don Geddis
> After reading thru some of the messages posted here I realized there are two
> basic groups who watch the UFC events, those like myself who watch for the
> pure entertainment value and those who watch for the techniques and skills.
Probably true. In fact, most of the PPV audience is probably after
entertainment, just because there aren't that many people who study martial
arts to any serious extent.
> Since I don't really care about the skills and moves as much as the
> entertainment I can say unequivocally that the Gracies suck and I wish the
> promoters of the UFC's would modify the rules to do away TOTALLY with the
> submission rules.
There are plenty of competitions like you describe, and they tend to get MUCH
more publicity than the UFC. Watch pro boxing, or even professional kick
boxing which is broadcast regularly on EPSN/EPSN2.
The great thing about the UFCs is not that they added rules so that submission
occurs; it's that they took away (almost all) rules, and we get to see whether
submission and grappling works!
Unlike WWF wrestling, where people are forced to grapple, it's perfectly fine
in the UFC to punch and kick. The reason this makes such a big splash in the
martial arts community is because people actual get to judge (or at least
debate) the effectiveness of the techniques they study.
> Unfortunately I think the Gracies are pretty much responsible for the UFC's
> so they probably hand a heavy hand in setting the rules.
Well, sure, but it would be more accurate to say "unsetting" the rules. They
aren't forcing anyone to grapple. The UFC is an open competition. They are,
on the other hand, being fairly convincing that a P/K fighter can't avoid a
grappling situation against an opponent determined to close.
> Now you lacy Gracie groupies may flame away, but I still contend from an
> entertainment perspective you can't deny me.
The part you miss is that the realism makes up in excitement for what you're
actually seeing, even if you aren't an educated observer. If you just want
pretty stuff, rent a movie! Van Damme has beautiful scenes in his movies,
because he's a big muscular guy who can do the splits.
But if you at all care the way hand-to-hand combat works, watch the UFC...
-- Don
--
Don Geddis Ged...@CS.Stanford.EDU http://meta.stanford.edu/geddis.html
I like having a machine called 'elvis' on the network because that way, I can
say 'ping elvis' and have it come back with 'elvis is alive'. -- Carl Shipley
Brad Grace
-> : be completely real. Unnecessary credentials(?) aside, he also
-> states that : the Gracies set up who fights who ahead of time. No
-> random draw, as is : promoted. Not that it matters...
->
-> If this is true then the UFC is a sham. There should be random
-> drawing like is advertised.
They draw at a press conferenct just before the event, they seed
I think a few fighters(ie. posterboys Shamrock and Gracie), but they
draw the rest out of a hat. How else would you explain the matching of
Ichiahara and Gracie in a Non-telivised(later telivised) first round
match in UFC II, talk about shutting down a market. Ichiahara is a
national hero in Japan, and Royce Gracie has a following there also,
that would surely dissapoint those fans.
Just some thoughts,
Bradelberg
DIsrael
Thanks Mike. (For forwarding my post to WOW...). I just had another
thought. Maybe they can get more alternates, and instead of formatting
the whole card in one night, they can allow the alternates to fight, and
the winners go to a bracket in the next UFC, with the WINNER and LOSER of
the final being invited back and given a 'bye' in the first round. This
way, we can see who all the contestants will be for the next one BEFORE it
happens! It will always be the finalists of the current one, and the
winners of the preliminary bouts! Howz this sound?
-Izz
Sean Hartigan
>
> 1. Royce Gracie was not in top shape. He was moving slow from the get
> go.
No way, comrade. He was on Kimo like a dirty shirt and fought like a
bloody tiger for the first 4 minutes or so. Even Gracies get
fatigued, I reckon. Hope I don't get struck by lightning for
saying that :)
> 2. I did not think that he was ever in serious danger with Kimo. His
> only problem was that Kimo was so big and strong that it was difficult to
> counter the strength (see 1. above) in his condition. As for the size of
> Kimo, I don't think Royce would've had much problem had he been in top
> condition.
We are skeptical. He looked pretty sharp to me. Give Kimo a little
credit. He _escaped_ from Gracie several times. The fact that we are
all so impressed by this is a real testament to Gracie and
his system. The fact that Kimo showed that Royce _can_ be
beaten is what has those of us who are tired of the GJJ propaganda
barrage so pleased.
> 4. Had Royce been in top shape, I predict:
> a. His match with Kimo would have been shorter
> b. He would have beaten Howard
> c. If he met Shamrock in the final, it would have been interesting,
> but I think that he would have beaten either Shamrock or Jennum
> regardless.
The only evidence we have that Gracie was sick is the word of his
groupies. But anyway, he fought like a demon for most of the Kimo
match; I just don't buy this "he was sick" stuff. He was moving
plenty fast to take out Kimo if his stuff had been _working_.
This doesn't mean I don't believe that he was sick, btw. Just that
it didn't incapacitate him the way people are saying.
As for him beating Howard -- probably. But I still think that
it was the sight of Howard that prompted him to back down.
Why would he have walked out there, otherwise? He was tired,
for one reason or another, and knew he was dead meat.
Even so, I think Royce Gracie would fight anyone alive, tired
or not. My guess is that the family fight record was deemed too
precious to subject to serious risk.
-- Sean H.
Michael L. Weishaar
> Maybe it does matter. Maybe the Gracies gave Royce the TKD guy Kimo thinking
> they would get an easy mark. They put Shamrock with Leniger to wear him out.
> They suppose that Royce will win easily and Shamrock will be tired. Shamrock
> draws Yarborough and wins/loses but the victor is very tired. Royce gets a
> Thai boxer who he can take to the ground or Howard who is too slow for Royce.
> Royce and Shamrock go for the championship but Shamrock is more beat up.
>
> Didn't work did it Royce.
First of all, I thought it was strange that Shamrock ended up in different brackets,
allowing them to possibly meet in the final. Maybe it was set up, maybe not.
Hell, who cares if it was, I think everyone would like to see it happen.
As far as rigging the whole damn thing as you suggest... that is a crock of
proverbial shit. I don't think you can be stupid enough to believe that this
really happened. But I could be wrong.
Paul T Longo
Sean Hartigan <hart...@ac.dal.ca> wrote:
> The fact that Kimo showed that Royce _can_ be
>beaten is what has those of us who are tired of the GJJ propaganda
>barrage so pleased.
Maybe you should take this "GJJ propaganda" with a grain
of salt. Never have I heard the claim "Royce cannot be beaten" from
anyone on the net. Royce himself has admitted that he can, and most
likely will, be beaten someday. Also keep in mind that the Gracie
contingent on the net consists of a very small number of opinionated
practitioners and is not necessarily representative of the whole.
The fact that they can create such an anti-Gracie backlash hints at
a major inferiority complex within the ranks of the external stylists
and others who claim that Royce was defeated in a fight he actually
won or a fight he didn't even take part in, and then hypocritically
decry Gracie "propaganda".
The technical aspects of Gracie Jiu Jitsu (not the more
basic self-defense techniques seen in the UFC's) reveal a grace and
intelligence which are not often discussed on the net. It should
be noted that GJJ is not as one-dimensional as it is so often por-
trayed on this newsgroup, and that the "propaganda" consists mostly
of claims which have been shown to be substantial, albeit not uni-
versal law (for those who need to be reminded of this).
That said, I will make one last foray into the UFC debate.
It seems to me that the only thing Kimo proved to the UFC audience
is that Royce can beat a 250 pound psycho with God on his side (prop-
aganda, I admit) while sick. He definitely didn't prove that Royce
can be beaten, since to do so he probably would have had to beat him.
Like I said, Royce _can_ be beaten, like any man. As of yet, however,
no one outside the Gracie circle has managed to prove this "truth".
Reports of his death, as Twain would say, have been greatly exag-
gerated.
-Paul
Sean Hartigan
> In article <1994Sep17.2...@ac.dal.ca>,
> Sean Hartigan <hart...@ac.dal.ca> wrote:
>> The fact that Kimo showed that Royce _can_ be
>>beaten is what has those of us who are tired of the GJJ propaganda
>>barrage so pleased.
>
> Maybe you should take this "GJJ propaganda" with a grain
> of salt. Never have I heard the claim "Royce cannot be beaten" from
> anyone on the net. Royce himself has admitted that he can, and most
> likely will, be beaten someday. Also keep in mind that the Gracie
> contingent on the net consists of a very small number of opinionated
> practitioners and is not necessarily representative of the whole.
> The fact that they can create such an anti-Gracie backlash hints at
> a major inferiority complex within the ranks of the external stylists
> and others who claim that Royce was defeated in a fight he actually
> won or a fight he didn't even take part in, and then hypocritically
> decry Gracie "propaganda".
I used the word "propaganda," but I didn't say any of the other things
mentioned above. I'm not saying Gracie was beaten. I'm saying
that it took Gracie several tries to finally get Kimo -- what that
means is that the _system_ was defeated a couple of times. It lost
a few battles, so to speak, even though the war was won.
This would not even be worth mentioning except for the propaganda spread
not only by certain net.gjj'ers, but by the Gracies themselves (i.e.
their Black Belt magazine ads reading "Undefeatable Fighting System")
that their _system_ is unbeatable. Kimo showed this is not true, even
though he was unable to beat GJJ _every_ time, he was able to
defeat it a few times. Not enough times to win the fight, though :)
What Kimo did was crack the myth of Gracie invulnerability. If
a GJJ Bad Ass (tm) can be reversed, escaped from, hurt, than he
can be defeated.
> The technical aspects of Gracie Jiu Jitsu (not the more
> basic self-defense techniques seen in the UFC's) reveal a grace and
> intelligence which are not often discussed on the net.
True enough. Pete Rihaczek has posted some nice stuff about GJJ technique
that I thought was very impressive; I hope he continues to do
so, personally. GJJ is obviously good stuff. That doesn't seem to be
enough for some people, though.
> It should
> be noted that GJJ is not as one-dimensional as it is so often por-
> trayed on this newsgroup,
That's a point that is not made often enough, I think.
> and that the "propaganda" consists mostly
> of claims which have been shown to be substantial, albeit not uni-
> versal law (for those who need to be reminded of this).
I disagree. I think the GJJ claims display a rather limited understanding
of basic notions of logic. Just because Rickson Gracie is an awesome
fighting machine, that does not mean GJJ is undefeatable. Try to get that
through the heads of some GJJ'ers, though. Including the Gracies themselves,
if their ads in Black Belt are a true indication of how they feel.
The whole UFC thing is a big Gracie propaganda exercise, as well, as
anyone who is not a GJJ'er seems able to see. Setting the thing up
as a "battle of the styles" is ludicrous, and serves only one
purpose -- to market GJJ. The commentators are so biased that
they are not worth listening to. The whole thing was a (gutsy, I admit)
marketing ploy from the start. The aim of the UFC is to sell
GJJ lessons -- nothing else. They deliberately misrepresent the
situation in order to persuade: that's a good definition of propaganda.
Bottom line:
The Gracies are either naive, stupid, or consciously banking on
the stupidity of the American public. I don't know which, myself.
> -Paul
-- Sean H.
David Wright
>In article <1994Sep17.2...@ac.dal.ca>,
>Sean Hartigan <hart...@ac.dal.ca> wrote:
>> The fact that Kimo showed that Royce _can_ be
>>beaten is what has those of us who are tired of the GJJ propaganda
>>barrage so pleased.
>
> Maybe you should take this "GJJ propaganda" with a grain
>of salt. Never have I heard the claim "Royce cannot be beaten" from
>anyone on the net.
Oh yes you have, in effect. Or at least I have, what with with "GJJ
black belts beat everyone" propaganda. Royce is a GJJ black belt.
I'm sure you can complete the syllogism yourself.
>Royce himself has admitted that he can, and most
>likely will, be beaten someday.
Well, within the Gracie family, he's not he undisputed champ, right,
so he can definitely be beaten there.
Paul T Longo
>In article <35goq0$6...@netnews.upenn.edu> plo...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Paul T Longo) writes:
>> Maybe you should take this "GJJ propaganda" with a grain
>>of salt. Never have I heard the claim "Royce cannot be beaten" from
>>anyone on the net.
>
>Oh yes you have, in effect. Or at least I have, what with with "GJJ
>black belts beat everyone" propaganda. Royce is a GJJ black belt.
>I'm sure you can complete the syllogism yourself.
I said that I never read a claim that Royce cannot be
beaten. I will add that I have never read a claim that Gracie
black belts will _never_ lose. These are very restrictive state-
ments. I _have_ heard people claim that Gracie black belts will
win a high percentage of their fights against people from other
MA's, and I don't see this as propaganda, since propaganda implies
exaggeration and/or falsehood. I see no exaggeration or falsehood
in such a claim. I think that your definition of propaganda leans
more toward "any claim made by the 'bad guys' which might threaten
my own emotion-based opinions". If this is the case, then I agree
that many of the Gracie claims are indeed propaganda, since they
stir so many emotions (in the Gracie ranks as well) and so little
rational thought. I wouldn't call them propaganda in the classic
definition of the word (i.e. dissemination of highly biased or false
information or gossip for the purpose of injuring a person, instit-
ution, or cause), although I agree that there exists a bias in the
postings from the Gracie supporters. Those who post w/o an
inherent bias toward their particular MA may have the right to
criticize this bias, but these people are, in my experience,
few and far between. In any case, bias does not necessarily pre-
clude rational argument or factual information.
-Paul L.
cra...@ids.net
> In article <357ehd$h...@search01.news.aol.com>, dis...@aol.com (DIsrael) writes:
>>
>> 1. Royce Gracie was not in top shape. He was moving slow from the get
>> go.
>
> No way, comrade. He was on Kimo like a dirty shirt and fought like a
> bloody tiger for the first 4 minutes or so. Even Gracies get
> fatigued, I reckon. Hope I don't get struck by lightning for
> saying that :)
>
Go watch his performance against Ken Shamrock in UFC 1, or watch him fight
Pat Smith in UFC 2 (or even Remco Paroul).
>> 2. I did not think that he was ever in serious danger with Kimo. His
>> only problem was that Kimo was so big and strong that it was difficult to
>> counter the strength (see 1. above) in his condition. As for the size of
>> Kimo, I don't think Royce would've had much problem had he been in top
>> condition.
>
> We are skeptical. He looked pretty sharp to me. Give Kimo a little
> credit. He _escaped_ from Gracie several times. The fact that we are
> all so impressed by this is a real testament to Gracie and
> his system. The fact that Kimo showed th at Royce _can_ be
> beaten is what has those of us who are tired of the GJJ propaganda
> barrage so pleased.
>
How did he 'escape'? If had escaped would he not have stood up and fought
the way his preferrred style (TKD?) fights? Also, I guess I was watching
a different UFC, when did Kimo BEAT Royce? I could have sworn Kimo
tapped out...but again, I must have been watching something else..
>> 4. Had Royce been in top shape, I predict:
>> a. His match with Kimo would have been shorter
>> b. He would have beaten Howard
>> c. If he met Shamrock in the final, it would have been interesting,
>> but I think that he would have beaten either Shamrock or Jennum
>> regardless.
>
> The only evidence we have that Gracie was sick is the word of his
> groupies. But anyway, he fought like a demon for most of the Kimo
> match; I just don't buy this "he was sick" stuff. He was moving
> plenty fast to take out Kimo if his stuff had been _working_.
>
> This doesn't mean I don't believe that he was sick, btw. Just that
> it didn't incapacitate him the way people are saying.
>
In your overinflated opinion of course...
Sean Hartigan
> In article <35kf2c$o...@clam.hi.com>, David Wright <wri...@clam.hi.com> wrote:
>>In article <35goq0$6...@netnews.upenn.edu> plo...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Paul T Longo) writes:
>>> Maybe you should take this "GJJ propaganda" with a grain
>>>of salt. Never have I heard the claim "Royce cannot be beaten" from
>>>anyone on the net.
>>
>>Oh yes you have, in effect. Or at least I have, what with with "GJJ
>>black belts beat everyone" propaganda. Royce is a GJJ black belt.
>>I'm sure you can complete the syllogism yourself.
>
> I said that I never read a claim that Royce cannot be
> beaten. I will add that I have never read a claim that Gracie
> black belts will _never_ lose.
The claim that a GJJ black belt will never lose to a non-GJJ
martial artist has indeed been made on this newsgroup.
> These are very restrictive statements.
You've got that right!
Your points are well-taken, however, you have to realize that what
people are reacting against on here are GJJ claims of
invincibility/undefeatabilty. Yes, those claims HAVE been made on
this newsgroup and elsewhere. Read the ads for GJJ in "Black Belt"
magazine. The header is: "Undefeatable Fighting System."
GJJ'ers who make more rational claims (and there are some) are not
the ones we are accusing of propagandizing. The Gracies,
however, do promote themselves as having an "undefeatable" (their word)
fighting system. This claim can only be defended by means of bad logic and
misrepresentation. Some people would say that's just good marketing --
others are less charitable.
-- Sean H.
Thomas A Suit
: In article <35goq0$6...@netnews.upenn.edu>, plo...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Paul T Longo) writes:
: > In article <1994Sep17.2...@ac.dal.ca>,
: > Sean Hartigan <hart...@ac.dal.ca> wrote:
: >> The fact that Kimo showed that Royce _can_ be
: >>beaten is what has those of us who are tired of the GJJ propaganda
: >>barrage so pleased.
Except that Kimo lost fighting Royce. Minor detail....I mean this
reminds me of people who say, "Well, my football team basically won
since they had the lead during most of the game and you guys just got
lucky at the end." What crap. You either win or you lose. No one cares
what you did at sea, what's important is whether or not you got the ship
home. Kimo didn't.
: >
No, I'm not a GJJ practitioner, in fact I was rather skeptical about
the whole thing until I saw UFC II. The fact remains that GJJ is THE
system to beat, and some people who are far more secure about their
styles than you anti-GJJ people are actually willing to try it, rather
than criticize it while hiding behind a terminal.
: > Maybe you should take this "GJJ propaganda" with a grain
: > of salt. Never have I heard the claim "Royce cannot be beaten" from
: > anyone on the net. Royce himself has admitted that he can, and most
: > likely will, be beaten someday. Also keep in mind that the Gracie
Absolutely true. Any system can be beaten after it has been studied
enough by it's opponents, and a lot of people are very seriously
studying GJJ, because they see it as a legitimate threat. (Threat
being anything that demonstrates an obvious shortcoming in your own
style.)
: I used the word "propaganda," but I didn't say any of the other things
: mentioned above. I'm not saying Gracie was beaten. I'm saying
: that it took Gracie several tries to finally get Kimo -- what that
: means is that the _system_ was defeated a couple of times. It lost
: a few battles, so to speak, even though the war was won.
Yeah, and since Royce couldn't immediately get that Japanese guy in
UFC II to tap out for at least 4 minutes means that that guy defeated
GJJ too. What crap. Kimo was on the defensive for practically the
entire fight, and when it was over, it took him a bit to even stand
up.
: What Kimo did was crack the myth of Gracie invulnerability. If
: a GJJ Bad Ass (tm) can be reversed, escaped from, hurt, than he
: can be defeated.
GJJ certainly is not invulnerable. If you want to see Royce beaten
in a fight, have him fight a bunch of guys at once. Assuming they are
competent fighters, while he's busy with one he's going to get a
boottothehead from another. :-) Game over, man! Or perhaps if we
trained a chimpanzee in shoot fighting....
: The whole UFC thing is a big Gracie propaganda exercise, as well, as
: anyone who is not a GJJ'er seems able to see. Setting the thing up
: as a "battle of the styles" is ludicrous, and serves only one
: purpose -- to market GJJ. The commentators are so biased that
: they are not worth listening to. The whole thing was a (gutsy, I admit)
Yes, the commentators are worthless. Secondly, they should show more
of the initial fights rather than force us to listen to those bozos.
(Especially Mr. "Popped Capsule".)
: marketing ploy from the start. The aim of the UFC is to sell
: GJJ lessons -- nothing else. They deliberately misrepresent the
: situation in order to persuade: that's a good definition of propaganda.
What has been misrepresented? It is one on one empty handed combat
with basically no rules. And one particular style seems to be very
successful under those fairly unlimited conditions.
: Bottom line:
: The Gracies are either naive, stupid, or consciously banking on
: the stupidity of the American public. I don't know which, myself.
Maybe this will help you figure it out - why don't we list all the
people who have actually beaten the Gracies in fights. Then let's
list all the people who have lost to Gracies in fights. So that
will lead some of you to say,"That just shows that they are very
talented fighters." When was the last time any family has had
this kind of success record? It's not just one guy. The point
being that if you want to beat a competent GJJ practitioner in
one on one fighting, you had better have a good understanding of
GJJ, or be extremely competent in some kind of internal art like
Aikido or Tai Chi. (The Gracies lost to some Aikido student in
Japan, I've heard. Anyone have details on this?)
Tom Suit
Christopher Thong
>>
>>> 2. I did not think that he was ever in serious danger with Kimo. His
>>> only problem was that Kimo was so big and strong that it was difficult to
>>> counter the strength (see 1. above) in his condition. As for the size of
>>> Kimo, I don't think Royce would've had much problem had he been in top
>>> condition.
>Kimo *did not* show that Royce can be beaten. All he showed is that strength
>and steroids isn't enough to defeat GJJ. Royce was in control of the fight
>the whole time preventing Kimo from getting any good shots that may have won
>the fight for him.
----sorry mike, i disagree with you a little here. at the point that kimo was
on top of royce, and in a pretty much prime position for a choke, i REALLY
thought that that was QUITE a bad position to be in. a more experienced
grappler might have had him in real trouble....
chris thong
wharfie
>if you want to beat a competent GJJ practitioner in one on one fighting, you
>had better have a good understanding of GJJ, or be extremely competent in
>some kind of internal art like Aikido or Tai Chi.
Oh, horseshit.
Michael Dash
>das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) writes:
Yes, there were a couple of times Royce was in a bad position, but he quickly
got out of them. Royce was in a bad position for no more than a couple of
seconds, and he was keeping Kimo off balance whole time. This is why Kimo
didn't go to choke or elbow Royce in the back of the head. If he had let go
to do this he would have slipped off Royce's back to the side.
M. Dash
Sean Hartigan
> In article <1994Sep17.2...@ac.dal.ca>, hart...@ac.dal.ca (Sean Hartigan) writes:
>> In article <357ehd$h...@search01.news.aol.com>, dis...@aol.com (DIsrael) writes:
>>>
>>> 1. Royce Gracie was not in top shape. He was moving slow from the get
>>> go.
>>
>> No way, comrade. He was on Kimo like a dirty shirt and fought like a
>> bloody tiger for the first 4 minutes or so. Even Gracies get
>> fatigued, I reckon. Hope I don't get struck by lightning for
>> saying that :)
>>
>
> Go watch his performance against Ken Shamrock in UFC 1, or watch him fight
> Pat Smith in UFC 2 (or even Remco Paroul).
I saw UFC II, and I think Royce was slower in those fights than the Kimo
fight. He was able to be -- his opponents weren't as aggressive,
strong, or psychotic. I can see no way to prove this point one way
or the other, however.
>> Give Kimo a little
>> credit. He _escaped_ from Gracie several times. The fact that we are
>> all so impressed by this is a real testament to Gracie and
>> his system. The fact that Kimo showed th at Royce _can_ be
>> beaten is what has those of us who are tired of the GJJ propaganda
>> barrage so pleased.
>>
>
> How did he 'escape'? If had escaped would he not have stood up and fought
> the way his preferrred style (TKD?) fights?
I don't know. He did reverse Gracie and escape from more than one armlock.
Also he avoided several attempts at a takedown.
> Also, I guess I was watching
> a different UFC, when did Kimo BEAT Royce? I could have sworn Kimo
> tapped out...but again, I must have been watching something else..
Maybe you were just enjoying the feeling of being smarter than
everyone else? It must be quite a good feeling. I'm a little
envious. But back to business.
If, for some reason, you had read what I actually wrote,
you would have seen that I what I said was that Kimo showed
that Gracie _can_ be beaten. Yes, he did lose the match,
but he did land a good punch, and he did get out of several
patented Gracie DeathTechniques (tm). If Gracie can be hit once,
he can be hit more than once. Kimo showed that Royce is
not invulnerable. One who is not invulnerable can be beaten, saith
the sage.
>> The only evidence we have that Gracie was sick is the word of his
>> groupies. But anyway, he fought like a demon for most of the Kimo
>> match; I just don't buy this "he was sick" stuff. He was moving
>> plenty fast to take out Kimo if his stuff had been _working_.
>>
>> This doesn't mean I don't believe that he was sick, btw. Just that
>> it didn't incapacitate him the way people are saying.
>
> In your overinflated opinion of course...
You are obviously having a really good time feeling superior. I hate to
interfere... oh, what the heck.
If you had read the quoted comment attentively, you
would have noticed that I was essentially saying that I don't
_believe_ that any sickness Royce may have had incapacitated him to
the point where we can write off Kimo's admittedly limited success
against Royce as merely being the result of Royce having an "off" day.
That's all. Kimo is obviously a big, tough dude.
Royce fought hard, fought well, and defeated a much larger and stronger
opponent. Why should we find it surprising that he took a few knocks
doing it? Only because of the extreme claims made on behalf of Royce
and his system.
Yes, it's my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it. It never
pretended to be anything else. Isn't that what we're all here for,
to hear what other people think? It may be naive of me to think that,
I realize.
-- Sean H.
Brian Baltzell
>Yes, there were a couple of times Royce was in a bad position, but he quickly
>got out of them. Royce was in a bad position for no more than a couple of
>seconds, and he was keeping Kimo off balance whole time. This is why Kimo
>M. Dash
Mike maybe you can explain this for me? When Kimo came down and was on top
of Royce they were in an odd position. Royce was on the ground (belly facing
down) and Kimo was on top. It look like Royce had Kimo's wrists pinned and
that's why Kimo couldn't punch him in the head. Am I right did Royce catch
Kimo's wrists? If he did than it was totaly amazing. It would take incredible
presence of mind to llock someone's wrists when the are falling on you.
Brian
Sean Hartigan
> In article <1994Sep18.2...@ac.dal.ca> hart...@ac.dal.ca (Sean Hartigan) writes:
>
>>I used the word "propaganda," but I didn't say any of the other things
>>mentioned above. I'm not saying Gracie was beaten. I'm saying
>>that it took Gracie several tries to finally get Kimo -- what that
>>means is that the _system_ was defeated a couple of times. It lost
>>a few battles, so to speak, even though the war was won.
>
> and off balance. Just because Kimo avoided a couple of fininshing holds
> doesn't mean he was ever in control or close to winning.
Boy, you just don't give an inch. I never said he was in control
or close to winning. All I said was that he stopped
several GJJ attempts to do him in. If an army tries to capture
a city and is repulsed, one can fairly call that a "defeat," even
if it is only a temporary defeat, and the second try results in victory.
>>This would not even be worth mentioning except for the propaganda spread
>>not only by certain net.gjj'ers, but by the Gracies themselves (i.e.
>>their Black Belt magazine ads reading "Undefeatable Fighting System")
>>that their _system_ is unbeatable. Kimo showed this is not true, even
>>though he was unable to beat GJJ _every_ time, he was able to
>>defeat it a few times. Not enough times to win the fight, though :)
>
> Kimo didn't defeat anything. All he did was prove that incredible strength
> isn't enough to defeat GJJ.
There's absolutely nothing I could say to alter this opinion one
iota, is there?
>>What Kimo did was crack the myth of Gracie invulnerability. If
>>a GJJ Bad Ass (tm) can be reversed, escaped from, hurt, than he
>>can be defeated.
>
> Royce wasn't hurt from that fight, just exhausted. And the for the few
> seconds that Kimo appeared to be in a better position (his chest to Royce's
> back) Royce immediately reversed.
I would continue this argument, but I don't think you're arguing
in good faith. You show no interest at all in actually trying to
see any truth in your opponent's position at all. You just contradict
anything anyone says that might reflect in a less-than-optimum way
on GJJ. It reminds me of that Monty Python sketch: "I'd like to
buy an argument, please."
>>> The technical aspects of Gracie Jiu Jitsu (not the more
>>> basic self-defense techniques seen in the UFC's) reveal a grace and
>>> intelligence which are not often discussed on the net.
>
>>True enough. Pete Rihaczek has posted some nice stuff about GJJ technique
>>that I thought was very impressive; I hope he continues to do
>>so, personally.
>
> Pete's offlne! I'm your supplier now :)
I don't mean to be unkind, but I find that regrettable. Pete Rihaczek
was/is, in my view, a more effective GJJ spokesman. Why? Because
he is willing to give other people credit for having motives other
than jealousy and malice, because he is willing to give other
people credit for having at least a _little_ bit of intelligence,
and because he is willing to talk about the art in substantive terms,
as opposed to simply bluntly contradicting any criticism.
I don't intend this as a personal attack. I'm sure you have reasons
for acting as you do.
>>GJJ is obviously good stuff. That doesn't seem to be
>>enough for some people, though.
>
> A year ago you wouldn't have said that.
No, a year ago I knew nothing at all about GJJ and wouldn't have said
_anything_ about it.
> In the beginning the GJJ claims upset
> people because saying GJJ is best implies your style isn't.
It didn't upset me, it intrigued me.
> Even the naysayers can't
> help but think "is my art effective against GJJ?"
> The way GJJ is presented on
> this newsgroup is what made it the number one discussion topic along
> with the UFC.
I disagree with your second point. Most people now have their killfiles
automatically set to trash any post with "GJJ" or "UFC" in the header.
That's because, aside from some of Pete R.'s posts, they all have this
"Anything which might reflect on some kind of imperfection in GJJ
is _absolutely_, _completely_ and _utterly_ wrong" tone that gets
very wearing.
>>I disagree. I think the GJJ claims display a rather limited understanding
>>of basic notions of logic. Just because Rickson Gracie is an awesome
>>fighting machine, that does not mean GJJ is undefeatable. Try to get that
>>through the heads of some GJJ'ers, though. Including the Gracies themselves,
>>if their ads in Black Belt are a true indication of how they feel.
>
> No one has ever said GJJ is great because of Rickson. GJJ cvhallenge fights
> have been condicted using a variety of black belts not in the Gracie family.
> Always a victory for GJJ. This shows a conssiten trend in fighting
> effectiveness for GJJ.
Yes, it shows a consistent trend in fighting effectiveness. It does _not_,
however, prove GJJ is undefeatable. You can admit this without going
to Hell, you know (I think).
> Obviously you don't know jack about what goes on with the UFC, and you know
> you don't. You are speaking in ignorance and I shall clarify the UFC for you.
> There are two main entities in UFC, WOW (Rorion Gracie and Art Davie) and
> Semaphore Entertainment Group (SEG). SEG put up quite a lot of money to make
> the UFC a PPV event (much more than WOW) and has some say into the UFC. The
> Gracies do not have Carte Blanche influence. If they did, another Gracie
> would have been standing by as Royce's alternate to fight Howard. SEG is in
> this for the money making potential of the UFC and they are not going to let
> the UFC become a showcase for GJJ. Since SEG is not a group of martial
> artists, they may not have noticed some of the things people on this net have,
> such as Ben Perry's (Hair Boy) seemingly biased announcing. This is why I'm
> forwarding the comments I see on this net.
Thank you for the clarification. It seems clear that even if the Gracies
don't have carte blanche to do what they want with UFC, they did have a
large part in conceiving the event. It sounds like they are the only
martial arts experts associated directly with the event itself. This
is probably responsible for the "battle of the styles" format which has
become a bit absurd, since so many contestants cross-train now.
As for the original purpose of the UFC, are you saying that
marketing GJJ (by demonstrating its "undefeatability") was not
a consideration in the origin of the UFC? I'm sure it wasn't presented
to SEG in this way, but are you saying this was not an issue at all?
As for the announcers, they know who's paying their cheques. This
doesn't mean they're corrupt, just that knowing that the brother
of a fighter is one of your bosses is likely to have a certain
impact on the commentary, not to mention having a student of the
same family as one of the announcers.
Even people who know nothing about martial arts at all found
the commentary at the last UFC biased (at least one did at our
UFC party).
>>Bottom line:
>>The Gracies are either naive, stupid, or consciously banking on
>>the stupidity of the American public. I don't know which, myself.
>
> Bottom line: You are angry, jealous, close minded and angry that GJJ is
> consistently being able to support its claims, which implies that there is a
> style out there that is much more effective than whatever you're taking.
> Instead of checking it out with an open mind, you attack it. Strangely
> enough, you still seem to read plenty of GJJ posts and rspond to ehm, read GJJ
> ad in BB magazine, and watch the UFC. Hmmm.
Please note that there was one non-pejorative adjective in my list.
I was not necessarily slamming on the Gracies. As for your response --
There are at least two possibilities:
1) I have multiple-personality disorder.
2) Not everyone who has something non-ecstatic to say about GJJ
hates it.
I have a lot of admiration and respect for GJJ and the Gracie family
and would like to learn more (but can't afford the tapes). I find the
whole Gracie phenomonon interesting. I study judo and am intrigued by
the similarities and/or differences between the two arts. I am
also interested in the question of comparison of arts. Like you,
I believe they can be compared in terms of effectiveness, in a
rough way. These are the reasons, I think, that I keep following
these threads. Pure masochism can't be entirely ruled out, though.
It's too bad I can't think anything deviating from the Gracie
Party Line without being labelled an enemy of the cause. Your knee-
jerk defense of everything related to GJJ (or what looks like
knee-jerk defense) and your quickness to write off anyone who
disagrees with you as a pathetic child may have the effect of
preventing people from getting complacent about GJJ, true. But it
also makes people who would genuinely like to discuss GJJ-
related issues and maybe learn a thing or two feel it's not
even worth trying...at least, not _here_.
> M. Dash
-- Sean H.
JAMES D. CHAE
: Mike maybe you can explain this for me? When Kimo came down and was on top
: of Royce they were in an odd position. Royce was on the ground (belly facing
: down) and Kimo was on top. It look like Royce had Kimo's wrists pinned and
: that's why Kimo couldn't punch him in the head. Am I right did Royce catch
: Kimo's wrists? If he did than it was totaly amazing. It would take incredible
: presence of mind to llock someone's wrists when the are falling on you.
Yeah, pretty awesome eh? I was also very impressed with the way Royce
casually deflected all but one punch while Kimo was on top (in Royce's
Guard.) I wish I had learned the Guard while I was taking Tang Soo Do.