Opponent Grabs Your Kicking Leg
FB
The most common kick for an opponent to grab is a mid-level round kick.
This tends to happen mostly when sparring with students, where you're
slowing things down, and the opportunity to grab is there. Sometimes
the person doesn't realize that that's why he was able to grab it in the
first place. That is, usually when you actually follow through and nail
someone with a solid kick to the ribs, they're too busy holding their
own stomach to think about trying to hold your leg.
In my experience, wrestling tends to have the best solutions to this
problem. Counter it as you would a single leg takedown.
Let's say you threw a round kick with your right leg and the opponent
grabbed it. He is now holding your leg on the left side of his waist,
under his left arm. Your left hand grabs the back of his neck, right
arm overhooks his left arm. Pull yourself closer to him as you push
your leg further in. Hop to your right as you turn leftward and
eventually face the same direction as him, and whizzer him.
There are many counters to this situation that work well. Here's
another.
He's trying to lift your leg high and dump you on your back. Let's say
it's the right leg again. Insert your foot between his legs (press
outer foot or shin against his left inner thigh). Arm position: double
overhook or over/under (the underhook is your right arm). Sit down.
Pull him on top of you as you elevate him with your right leg, arms
helping, and send him to your left. He lands beside you on his back.
Follow him over and mount.
As I said, there are other good counters also. This will give a couple
of good solutions, though.
It is important to remember, though, that seizing the opponent's neck in
this situation is advisable. And remain facing him. His neck is your
anchor, and in most cases a good grasp of it will make sure you don't go
down to the ground. The only way he can take you down when you have his
neck is if he is willing to go down with you.
My advice is NOT to stand there and try to hit him while he's holding
your leg in the air. Something I always tell my students: Do not try
to implement a striking solution to a grappling problem. A grappling
problem requires a grappling solution.
Same reason why most strikers can't stop a shooter. They're using a
striking solution to a grappling problem. Solve the grappling problem
first, and you can hit all you want.
Frank Benn
Integrated Arts
Austin, Texas
Frankie
This is exactly why I like Isshinryu and do not care for TKD. No flames
intended, but in the former there are no kicks above the waist. In the
later, I have seen too many high kicks ending with one foot on the floor
while the other is in the grip of your opponent. I'm not talking
sparring here; real self-defense. Just my $0.02. Nothing more.
--
Remove ** to reply.
Gichoke
John Carlo
saying this for years
Vu
FB wrote:
Don't forget that the person holding your leg isn't going to just stand
there for you to do something.
My first target in a self defence situation would be to snap the knee of the
person whose leg i'm holding.
And if he even thinks about hopping closer, being a judoka, i would flatten
him like a pizza.
TravIsGod
>
>> In my experience, wrestling tends to have the best solutions to this
>> problem. Counter it as you would a single leg takedown.
>>
>> Let's say you threw a round kick with your right leg and the opponent
>> grabbed it. He is now holding your leg on the left side of his waist,
>> under his left arm. Your left hand grabs the back of his neck, right
>> arm overhooks his left arm. Pull yourself closer to him as you push
>> your leg further in. Hop to your right as you turn leftward and
>> eventually face the same direction as him, and whizzer him.
>>
>> There are many counters to this situation that work well. Here's
>> another.
>>
>> He's trying to lift your leg high and dump you on your back. Let's say
>> it's the right leg again. Insert your foot between his legs (press
>> outer foot or shin against his left inner thigh). Arm position: double
>> overhook or over/under (the underhook is your right arm). Sit down.
>> Pull him on top of you as you elevate him with your right leg, arms
>> helping, and send him to your left. He lands beside you on his back.
>> Follow him over and mount.
>>
>> As I said, there are other good counters also. This will give a couple
>> of good solutions, though.
>>
>> It is important to remember, though, that seizing the opponent's neck in
>> this situation is advisable.
No way, no way. If you pull the neck, the guy is either retarded or he is
going to russian single you in a heartbeat. The only way siezing the neck
works is if you have stalled the shot to begin with and the shooter is getting
back up. Go watch a few wrestling matches and you can see the proper reaction
to a high single leg, which is what a caught kick is. It is to *push back on
the face*. The trick in throw avoidance is to keep the other guy's hips out
from under yours. Lateral drops are very low percentage techniques against
anyone who can grapple...I've actually seen maybe one work in all my years of
wrestling and watching wrestling matches. Granted there is *parity* at this
level, lateral drops work great on people who don't know what they're doing.
Perhaps for BJJ guys, blending the hips together is OK, because going down on
your back is an "advisable" reaction for BJJ study, however, the whizzer and
crossface are only going to work if you are bent over *on top* of the guy -
feeding someone your leg from a standing position is a wholly different matter.
ANY wrestler would know that you have to let go of the neck, push the body
away and try to extract your leg from this point, because at the very minimum,
a skilled opponent can drag you down to the ground without even getting any
closer to you. Unless you can pull your hips back and down (and the guy
holding your leg with you) into a "stalled shot" position, there isn't going to
be any neck to sieze, because the proper reaction of the catcher is to go
forward into you (and most guys will be leaning away after kicks like this).
You will get his neck when his forehead begins to burrow into your sternum or
goes under your armpit. Your best bet is to a) not get caught, b) if you do,
you need to get there first w/ a punch or whatever, but at any rate, you're
going to basically have to "lift" your leg to maintain your balance. I was in
a match in HS where the guy had me on one leg and he picked the other knee up
to his shoulders...I was able to keep his head back and avoid sweeps by
actually hopping over the sweeping leg...now against an advanced wrestler, this
crap won't fly, they will pivot backwards and do a drag single and force you to
come forward, off balance and usually attack the plant leg at that point, if
you don't go down from the jerk. A neck grab from a single like this *should*
be turned into a body lock or a double in an instant - the last thing you
should be doing is lifting your arms...stiff arm to the face and keep your hips
low; even a modicum of watching collegiate wrestling will show you how this
works. If you come in and push your leg in deeper, you are gonna get salto'd
and/or bear hugged and/or double legged and you're gonna get hurt.
The major difference between this and a standard single is the different body
postures, caused by the fact that there was *no shot* (you fed him the leg).
In this case, the other guy isn't going to shoot, because he doesn't want to
allow a sprawl chance. The 95% use technique among good wrestlers who have
been fed the leg (they shot & stood up w/ a single) is to lift the knee as high
as possible and to do an upward, backward, then downward & sideways jerk. You
have to force the other guy to either let go of your leg because he can't use
it like he though he could or to commit to a lean over/shot type of movement
where his hips have come down and away from yours and you can sort of "settle
into" the whizzer, at which point all of the previous advice becomes perfectly
valid.
I would suggest that you slack the leg to get it out of your balance equation
and come into the guy, striking on the side that he's holding the leg, then
stiff arm hardwith the other hand (or both) and push the leg downward to break
the grip if the punch and stiff arms don't do it.
Trav
DoomsDa...@webtv.net
Jonas Bentell
1 Keep rotating in the direction you were kicking, to pull out the
leg.
2 Stand more upright and pull the caught leg to you so that it gets in
front of him instead of on his side, then stomp it in his stomache.
When he bends forward to compensate, punch his face.
Both are of course difficult to apply in real life, but then again -
you are in a messy situation when he has you leg!
FB
> No way, no way. If you pull the neck, the guy is either retarded or he is
> going to russian single you in a heartbeat. The only way siezing the neck
> works is if you have stalled the shot to begin with and the shooter is getting
> back up. Go watch a few wrestling matches and you can see the proper reaction
> to a high single leg, which is what a caught kick is. It is to *push back on
> the face*.
I understand and agree with what you're saying, Travis, but that end part was
really for the people who aren't facing a wrestler, don't want to learn any
wrestling, and just want to remain standing and not get dumped. Most people
(non-wrestlers) who have your leg and are holding it to the side won't know what to
do with it anyway, in a wrestling context.
Although, the second counter I gave (sumi gaeshi) works very well against wrestlers
trying for a single, and to do it you can either grab the neck, go double over, or
over/under.
> The trick in throw avoidance is to keep the other guy's hips out
> from under yours. Lateral drops are very low percentage techniques against
> anyone who can grapple...I've actually seen maybe one work in all my years of
> wrestling and watching wrestling matches. Granted there is *parity* at this
> level, lateral drops work great on people who don't know what they're doing.
>
> Perhaps for BJJ guys, blending the hips together is OK, because going down on
> your back is an "advisable" reaction for BJJ study, however, the whizzer and
> crossface are only going to work if you are bent over *on top* of the guy -
> feeding someone your leg from a standing position is a wholly different matter.
>
No, it's not just for BJJ. I tend to round kick with the shin, since I don't want
a broken ankle, and when someone catches your leg during one of these kicks he
usually has it up past the knee. Therefore, you are close enough to do a sprawling
whizzer as you circle away, especially since he is inside your leg and not out.
> ANY wrestler would know that you have to let go of the neck, push the body
> away and try to extract your leg from this point, because at the very minimum,
> a skilled opponent can drag you down to the ground without even getting any
> closer to you. Unless you can pull your hips back and down (and the guy
> holding your leg with you) into a "stalled shot" position, there isn't going to
> be any neck to sieze, because the proper reaction of the catcher is to go
> forward into you (and most guys will be leaning away after kicks like this).
>
Again, you misunderstand. I'm not talking about a wrestler grabbing your leg in
this case. I'm talking about a person who does not converge on you.
And yes, in this case it IS imperative that you push the face/head away, off to the
side, etc. cross face to back side and mount.
But if you're going down anyway -- and we're talking the street, not a mat -- it is
advisable to be low so you won't have your other leg swept or tripped, and then
your hip and back are going to slam the concrete.
> You will get his neck when his forehead begins to burrow into your sternum or
> goes under your armpit. Your best bet is to a) not get caught, b) if you do,
> you need to get there first w/ a punch or whatever, but at any rate, you're
> going to basically have to "lift" your leg to maintain your balance. I was in
> a match in HS where the guy had me on one leg and he picked the other knee up
> to his shoulders...I was able to keep his head back and avoid sweeps by
> actually hopping over the sweeping leg...now against an advanced wrestler, this
> crap won't fly, they will pivot backwards and do a drag single and force you to
> come forward, off balance and usually attack the plant leg at that point, if
> you don't go down from the jerk.
. . . A redump or flank . . .
> A neck grab from a single like this *should*
> be turned into a body lock or a double in an instant - the last thing you
> should be doing is lifting your arms...stiff arm to the face and keep your hips
> low; even a modicum of watching collegiate wrestling will show you how this
> works. If you come in and push your leg in deeper, you are gonna get salto'd
> and/or bear hugged and/or double legged and you're gonna get hurt.
>
> The major difference between this and a standard single is the different body
> postures, caused by the fact that there was *no shot* (you fed him the leg).
> In this case, the other guy isn't going to shoot, because he doesn't want to
> allow a sprawl chance. The 95% use technique among good wrestlers who have
> been fed the leg (they shot & stood up w/ a single) is to lift the knee as high
> as possible and to do an upward, backward, then downward & sideways jerk. You
> have to force the other guy to either let go of your leg because he can't use
> it like he though he could or to commit to a lean over/shot type of movement
> where his hips have come down and away from yours and you can sort of "settle
> into" the whizzer, at which point all of the previous advice becomes perfectly
> valid.
>
> I would suggest that you slack the leg to get it out of your balance equation
> and come into the guy, striking on the side that he's holding the leg, then
> stiff arm hardwith the other hand (or both) and push the leg downward to break
> the grip if the punch and stiff arms don't do it.
>
> Trav
Again, I just want to stress that I was addressing the situation in the context of
TWO UPRIGHT FIGHTERS FACING OFF, AND ONE GRABS THE OTHER'S KICKING LEG.
What if you had someone grab your kicking leg, he is wrestler, he runs the pipe,
you hop along, he goes to flank you, you hop back, and he comes around behind you
as your knee turns in under? Most wrestlers will basically try and run away from
it on a tripod to get "out of bounds".
My point being, not all wrestling reactions are ideally suited to self-defense.
Also, Trav, I didn't hear your reaction to the sumi gaeshi counter.
Any objections?
I've only made it work about 500 times before . . . so I guess I could be wrong.
FB
Sit down (you heard me right) to the open guard. Grab his ankle on that side
(right side) with your right hand. Put your left foot in his groin, push with your
left foot as you pull your right foot out of his grasp. Put your right foot on his
hip. Left foot hooks inside and behind his right knee. Right hand and left foot
trap as right foot pushes, and over he goes onto his back. If you have a hold on
his left wrist with your left hand (not hard to do) then he brings you over right
on top of him. Otherwise, keep the hold on his ankle and pass around that side to
side control.
Very reliable, and works very well against all kinds, even wrestlers.
FB
> No way, no way. If you pull the neck, the guy is either retarded or he is
> going to russian single you in a heartbeat.
Incidentally, there was an interesting UFC match between Scott Ferrozo and Vitor
Belfort where the fight was already over but Scott did not know it. He comes up
with one of Belfort's legs in his hands and Vitor at this late stage has just
enough time to grab Ferrozo's neck and establish his balance before Ferrozo can
lift him up and dump him backward. Grabbing the neck kept him on his feet. Now,
Ferrozo is no wrestler, but that is exactly my point. Vitor's weight was already
higher up than any wrestler would allow himself to be -- as this was a stand-up
fight -- and most wrestling counters would not have applied. The mechanics are
different when you're that high up. Among other things, the guy with your leg
doesn't even have to penetrate and change levels (although it's advisable) to get
you down from here. A simple heave ho would do it.
Understand also that I have been VERY successful in pulling the neck against a
grabbed kick or even an attempted single. It's all a matter of what the approach
is. 90% of wrestlers like to become a pyramid against any attempt to take them
down. But what about a sphere? When I pull the neck, if he's good he's going to
get me on my back. For about a 6th of a second. But I'm 220 lbs. When I pull the
neck and he thinks he's taken me down, I go with the momentum (with or without an
elevating leg, grabbing the back of his pants or belt, both sides of the waist or
belt, belt and one knee, over under, double over, etc. etc. etc.) and he continues
over to his back. I end up mounted or with side control. I probably get that 98%
of the times that I do it -- against heavyweights, mind you.
[MINOR] Jared Boteler
hard to say how but in the end I kicked him in the balls, back of the head,
and slammed his face into the ground all while he was holding that leg and
he thought he had "Such a big advantage." He was a sore sucker.
FB wrote in message <373C9093...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>...
>This is a very good topic which came up in another thread.
>
>The most common kick for an opponent to grab is a mid-level round kick.
>This tends to happen mostly when sparring with students, where you're
>slowing things down, and the opportunity to grab is there. Sometimes
>the person doesn't realize that that's why he was able to grab it in the
>first place. That is, usually when you actually follow through and nail
>someone with a solid kick to the ribs, they're too busy holding their
>own stomach to think about trying to hold your leg.
>
>problem. Counter it as you would a single leg takedown.
>
>Let's say you threw a round kick with your right leg and the opponent
>grabbed it. He is now holding your leg on the left side of his waist,
>under his left arm. Your left hand grabs the back of his neck, right
>arm overhooks his left arm. Pull yourself closer to him as you push
>your leg further in. Hop to your right as you turn leftward and
>eventually face the same direction as him, and whizzer him.
>
>There are many counters to this situation that work well. Here's
>another.
>
>He's trying to lift your leg high and dump you on your back. Let's say
>it's the right leg again. Insert your foot between his legs (press
>outer foot or shin against his left inner thigh). Arm position: double
>overhook or over/under (the underhook is your right arm). Sit down.
>Pull him on top of you as you elevate him with your right leg, arms
>helping, and send him to your left. He lands beside you on his back.
>Follow him over and mount.
>
>As I said, there are other good counters also. This will give a couple
>of good solutions, though.
>
>It is important to remember, though, that seizing the opponent's neck in
netz...@my-dejanews.com
I don't know. It seems like you could be opening yourself up for an
ankle-lock or a kneebar if you don't get your foot out fast enough. Your
opponent would just have to sit down with you, throw his left leg over your
right and roll to his right. Sounds dangerous against an experienced
grappler.
Deric Page
deric...@usa.net
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
FB
> In article <373E12E0...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>,
> FB <spa...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> > Here's another one.
> >
> > Sit down (you heard me right) to the open guard. Grab his ankle on that side
> > (right side) with your right hand. Put your left foot in his groin, push with your
> > left foot as you pull your right foot out of his grasp. Put your right foot on his
> > hip. Left foot hooks inside and behind his right knee. Right hand and left foot
> > trap as right foot pushes, and over he goes onto his back. If you have a hold on
> > his left wrist with your left hand (not hard to do) then he brings you over right
> > on top of him. Otherwise, keep the hold on his ankle and pass around that side to
> > side control.
> >
> > Very reliable, and works very well against all kinds, even wrestlers.
> >
> >
>
> I don't know. It seems like you could be opening yourself up for an
> ankle-lock or a kneebar if you don't get your foot out fast enough.
If you look at the details in my post above, you'll find that with (1) your other foot in
his groin, and (2) your right hand holding the outside of his left ankle and heel, he
won't be able to pull off either of the two submissions you mentioned. I've taken those
into account.
Moreover, with the position of your right foot on his left side under his left arm, all
you have to do is prevent his left leg from lacing around the outside of your right leg
to prevent both the ankle lock. And he can't get a knee bar anyway with your right
shin/ankle under his left arm and your left foot in his groin.
Vu
Gichoke
>lift him up and dump him backward. Grabbing the neck kept him on his feet.
>Now,
>Ferrozo is no wrestler,
IN ONE OF THE UFC'S THEY CLAIMED FERROZZO WAS A NEVADA STATE WRESTLING CHAMP
,(PROBABLY JUST HIGH SCHOOL)
EisMadchen
>From: Vu <v_...@hotmail.com>
>FB wrote:
>
>> This is a very good topic which came up in another thread.
>>
>> The most common kick for an opponent to grab is a mid-level round kick.
>> This tends to happen mostly when sparring with students, where you're
>> slowing things down, and the opportunity to grab is there. Sometimes
>> the person doesn't realize that that's why he was able to grab it in the
>> first place. That is, usually when you actually follow through and nail
>> someone with a solid kick to the ribs, they're too busy holding their
>> own stomach to think about trying to hold your leg.
I would agree with this, if your kick was so lame that he could catch it either
you cant kick or you were taking it easy on him. The better defense against a
kick is not to catch it but to move in on it, in which case the kicker is in
real trouble.
If someone really does catch your kick (and is not a gorilla or wearing body
armor), the simplest thing to do is just to punch him or even kick himwith the
same or other foot.
The fact that he caught your foot and has not already done horrible things to
you suggests that he was surprised by his own catch.
>>
>> In my experience, wrestling tends to have the best solutions to this
>> problem. Counter it as you would a single leg takedown.
>>
>> Let's say you threw a round kick with your right leg and the opponent
>> grabbed it. He is now holding your leg on the left side of his waist,
>> under his left arm. Your left hand grabs the back of his neck, right
>> arm overhooks his left arm. Pull yourself closer to him as you push
>> your leg further in. Hop to your right as you turn leftward and
>> eventually face the same direction as him, and whizzer him.
>>
>> There are many counters to this situation that work well. Here's
>> another.
>>
>> He's trying to lift your leg high and dump you on your back. Let's say
>> it's the right leg again. Insert your foot between his legs (press
>> outer foot or shin against his left inner thigh). Arm position: double
>> overhook or over/under (the underhook is your right arm). Sit down.
>> Pull him on top of you as you elevate him with your right leg, arms
>> helping, and send him to your left. He lands beside you on his back.
>> Follow him over and mount.
God knows what type of fight this is, but once a good fighter has grabbed your
leg, he is going to hit and dump you on your head in no time.
If you have time to respond, he probably doesn't know what he is doing so you
have a fair number of options.
>>
>> As I said, there are other good counters also. This will give a couple
>> of good solutions, though.
>>
>> It is important to remember, though, that seizing the opponent's neck in
>> this situation is advisable. And remain facing him. His neck is your
>> anchor, and in most cases a good grasp of it will make sure you don't go
>> down to the ground. The only way he can take you down when you have his
>> neck is if he is willing to go down with you.
The neck seize certainly limits your options. Maybe I work out with crazies,
but they would just all go down with me hanging onto their neck and I would end
up a grease spot (or worse if there were a fire plug nearby. The other nasty
is to scoop you up and then drop you (still holding onto their neck) onto there
knee as they drop to the other knee - ouch!
I would get my leg back as fast as possible by punching, and hope tht I get it
back before my opponent figures out what to do with it. If you start to
grapple, he is going to figure out what to do right away.
>>
>> My advice is NOT to stand there and try to hit him while he's holding
>> your leg in the air. Something I always tell my students: Do not try
>> to implement a striking solution to a grappling problem. A grappling
>> problem requires a grappling solution.
Interestingly, in this situation your opponent has done very well by bringing a
grappling solution to a striking problem. I say pound in his face while you
have two hands to his one.
>>
>> Same reason why most strikers can't stop a shooter. They're using a
>> striking solution to a grappling problem.
I would say the reason is the same that your leg got caught. At the last
second you decided you didn't need to break this guy's ribs and let him catch
you instead of you hurting him.
Shooters rely on strikers not being quite ready to smash a knee into their face
to prove a point.
>>Solve the grappling problem
>> first, and you can hit all you want.
>>
Hit them first, and there is no grappling problem and you don't have to get all
dirty.
>
>Don't forget that the person holding your leg isn't going to just stand
>there for you to do something.
>My first target in a self defence situation would be to snap the knee of the
>person whose leg i'm holding.
My "first" target would probably be to hit the kicker in the crotch.
>And if he even thinks about hopping closer, being a judoka, i would flatten
>him like a pizza.
If he was going to hop closer, he would have aready hopped closer.
netz...@my-dejanews.com
appologize if this comes through twice.
In article <373E65AE...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>,
FB <spa...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> netz...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <373E12E0...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>,
> > FB <spa...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Here's another one.
> > >
> > > Sit down (you heard me right) to the open guard. Grab his ankle
on that side
> > > (right side) with your right hand. Put your left foot in his
groin, push with your
> > > left foot as you pull your right foot out of his grasp. Put your
right foot on his
> > > hip. Left foot hooks inside and behind his right knee. Right
hand and left foot
> > > trap as right foot pushes, and over he goes onto his back. If
you have a hold on
> > > his left wrist with your left hand (not hard to do) then he
brings you over right
> > > on top of him. Otherwise, keep the hold on his ankle and pass
around that side to
> > > side control.
> > >
> >
> > I don't know. It seems like you could be opening yourself up for an
> > ankle-lock or a kneebar if you don't get your foot out fast enough.
>
> If you look at the details in my post above, you'll find that with
(1) your other foot in
> his groin, and (2) your right hand holding the outside of his left
ankle and heel, he
> won't be able to pull off either of the two submissions you
mentioned. I've taken those
> into account.
>
Well, in the sequence you describe above, you sit down first, then grab
the grappler's left leg, then put your foot into his groin. You'd have
to do this *very* fast to avoid the grappler dropping the moment he saw
you drop. Plus, you're assuming the grappler is standing in such a way
as to put your foot into his groin. I normally stand in a right lead
which would make this more difficult without some wiggling around,
which would take time. Also, as you move your left leg to brace
against the groin, you're opening up your legs, allowing your opponent
the opportunity to place his right leg in between both your legs, and
then drop back.
Admittedly, with your hand on my left ankle, it would be hard to get
that leg over your trapped leg, but if you drop down, and I drop down
before you can place your left foot, I've got you on the defensive in a
ground-grappling situation, which is where I want you (the last thing I
want is for you to be able to strike). You're out of range to punch.
One leg is trapped, and if you try to kick with your left, I can block
by raising my right knee and/or bracing my right foot against the back
of your thigh. From there, I can try to snake my right leg in between
your legs. From there, I continue to work on the trapped leg.
I have never caught a kick like this, nor have I seen it done. So, I
can't claim to have done this IRL. However, this sounds like a highly
risky move. I'd be willing to try out these ideas, but unless you live
in the St. Louis, MO area, I doubt it's likely to happen.
What I, and others, have done is duck under high (head-level)
roundhouses (thrown by TKD practitioners) to shoot the far leg; and
moved in and off-line of lower roundhouses, back kicks, spin kicks, and
side kicks. What I've had the most problem with are front kicks, but
since I've taken up Aikido (I started practicing MA with Judo), I've
learned some techniques that may help with this.
Chris Newton
>>FB wrote:
>>
>>> This is a very good topic which came up in another thread.
>>>
>>> The most common kick for an opponent to grab is a mid-level round kick.
>>> This tends to happen mostly when sparring with students, where you're
>>> slowing things down, and the opportunity to grab is there. Sometimes
>>> the person doesn't realize that that's why he was able to grab it in the
>>> first place. That is, usually when you actually follow through and nail
>>> someone with a solid kick to the ribs, they're too busy holding their
>>> own stomach to think about trying to hold your leg.
>
>I would agree with this, if your kick was so lame that he could catch it
either
>you cant kick or you were taking it easy on him.
Sorry, but I disagree. Catching a round kick thrown, say, waist height or
higher, is not an unlikely scenario, even if thrown by a skilful kicker. As
you say, though...
>The better defense against a kick is not to catch it but to move in on it,
>in which case the kicker is in real trouble.
...Moving in on the kick is kinda essential to the success of catching it.
>If someone really does catch your kick (and is not a gorilla or wearing
body
>armor), the simplest thing to do is just to punch him or even kick himwith
the
>same or other foot.
That's possible, but where does your power for your strike come from?
You're relatively off-balance on one leg, even if you are skilled at
kicking. Granted, there *are* moves where you jump up, spin around and kick
them with the other foot, but they are... low percentge... shall we say?
I think you underrate the catcher's ability to strike, also. If I've
managed to catch a round kick, I'll be moving in, and probably my technique
of choice would be to elbow strike to the throat/face/upper chest to upset
balance and then reap the supporting leg to throw. Notice the elbow strike
in there, which I'm throwing from a position of balance, with control of
your position.
On balance (no pun intended), I would favour Frank's suggestions involving
grappling techniques over hitting, unless you are blessed with enough
balance to get a good strike in.
>The fact that he caught your foot and has not already done horrible things
to
>you suggests that he was surprised by his own catch.
Fair comment.
>God knows what type of fight this is, but once a good fighter has grabbed
your
>leg, he is going to hit and dump you on your head in no time.
Agreed also, but doesn't this contradict your earlier assertions about
striking/kicking someone who has grabbed your leg?
>I would get my leg back as fast as possible by punching, and hope tht I get
it
>back before my opponent figures out what to do with it. If you start to
>grapple, he is going to figure out what to do right away.
We're kind of presupposing that you're a competent grappler. I still don't
like the theory that you can just "get your leg back" after it's been
caught, though. It's not a reliable premise on which to base your defence,
and reliability is what I want if I'm at a disadvantage.
>>> My advice is NOT to stand there and try to hit him while he's holding
>>> your leg in the air. Something I always tell my students: Do not try
>>> to implement a striking solution to a grappling problem. A grappling
>>> problem requires a grappling solution.
>
>Interestingly, in this situation your opponent has done very well by
bringing a
>grappling solution to a striking problem. I say pound in his face while
you
>have two hands to his one.
With my JJ hat on, it is *much* easier to bring grappling to a striking
fight than vice versa. It's easier to close distance/get a grip than it is
to open it again or break a grip. It's as simple as that. I'm not saying
that you *can't* ever punch/kick your way out of this situation, but I feel
that grappling techniques, such as those FB described originally, are
significantly more reliable in the long run.
>>> Same reason why most strikers can't stop a shooter. They're using a
>>> striking solution to a grappling problem.
>
>I would say the reason is the same that your leg got caught. At the last
>second you decided you didn't need to break this guy's ribs and let him
catch
>you instead of you hurting him.
I respectfully suggest that your complete faith in kicks is misplaced.
Kicks are a very useful tool in a fighter's armoury, but to suggest that
your kicking is so much better than every grappler's defence that you had
the luxury of choosing whether to break his ribs with a single kick is maybe
just a little arrogant, wouldn't you say?
>Shooters rely on strikers not being quite ready to smash a knee into their
face
>to prove a point.
Nope. They rely on setting up the shoot well, covering as they go in and
getting the balance (or at least to a clinch) without giving a striker an
opportunity to really hurt them. I'd be interested to see how you knee a
shooter in the face through the points of both elbows, which is a serious
risk in attempting that knee-in-the-face counter. There's a good reason
that things like the sprawl are favoured in combined striking/grappling
competitions, and that reason is that striking as a counter to a shoot is
not reliable. Stop the shoot, then strike all you like, but do stop the
shoot first.
>>>Solve the grappling problem first, and you can hit all you want.
>>>
>Hit them first, and there is no grappling problem and you don't have
>to get all dirty.
True (if the hit works well enough), but the point of this thread was
discussion of what happens when that is not the case.
>>Don't forget that the person holding your leg isn't going to just stand
>>there for you to do something.
>>My first target in a self defence situation would be to snap the knee of
the
>>person whose leg i'm holding.
>
>My "first" target would probably be to hit the kicker in the crotch.
I find that a very poor strategy. If I have caught your leg, one of the
easiest things for me to do without moving my feet is to lift it up and push
it away. Your chances of hitting me in the groin area at that point are...
slim. Added to the fact that a guy's fastest reflex is to protect his
privates, and you're on a loser there. Groin strikes are *vastly*
overrated.
By the way, speaking as someone who has been unfortunate enough to take a
very heavy groin strike (which is, no offence, something you are unlikely to
be familiar with), I will offer two facts for your amusement at this time.
Firstly, after receiving a heavy groin strike, the recipient will chuck up.
Secondly, before doing so, they will probably have time and be sufficiently
annoyed to rip you to shreds in response. If you think someone full of
adrenaline seems to feel no pain, just see how hard it is to stop someone
who's nuts you've just crushed.
>>And if he even thinks about hopping closer, being a judoka, i would
flatten
>>him like a pizza.
>
>If he was going to hop closer, he would have aready hopped closer.
What, in the middle of the kick that he didn't know was going to be caught?
I await your flames, Eis - do your worst! :-)
Chris
--
Please reply to the newsgroup on which this text is posted.
If a private reply is appropriate, remove "spamfree." from my address.
Mehran Habibi
FB wrote:
> Here's another one.
>
> Sit down (you heard me right) to the open guard. Grab his ankle on that side
> (right side) with your right hand. Put your left foot in his groin, push with your
> left foot as you pull your right foot out of his grasp. Put your right foot on his
> hip. Left foot hooks inside and behind his right knee. Right hand and left foot
> trap as right foot pushes, and over he goes onto his back. If you have a hold on
> his left wrist with your left hand (not hard to do) then he brings you over right
> on top of him. Otherwise, keep the hold on his ankle and pass around that side to
> side control.
>
> Very reliable, and works very well against all kinds, even wrestlers.
Enjoyed both posts Frank: Thanks.
Mehran
EisMadchen
>Date: 5/17/99 9:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <7hp5tu$42m$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>
>
>EisMadchen wrote...
>>>FB wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is a very good topic which came up in another thread.
>>>>
>>>> The most common kick for an opponent to grab is a mid-level round kick.
>>>> This tends to happen mostly when sparring with students, where you're
>>>> slowing things down, and the opportunity to grab is there. Sometimes
>>>> the person doesn't realize that that's why he was able to grab it in the
>>>> first place. That is, usually when you actually follow through and nail
>>>> someone with a solid kick to the ribs, they're too busy holding their
>>>> own stomach to think about trying to hold your leg.
>>
>>I would agree with this, if your kick was so lame that he could catch it
>either
>>you cant kick or you were taking it easy on him.
>
>Sorry, but I disagree. Catching a round kick thrown, say, waist height or
>higher, is not an unlikely scenario, even if thrown by a skilful kicker. As
>you say, though...
Pretty much, by definition, if someone catches it, it was not thrown by a
skillful kicker. I can hardly imagine ever using one, but if I did I would
make sure the opponent was too off-balance to do anything but get hit. A waist
high kick is a high risk move at best. You had better be sure that the
opponent is a target rather than a potential grappler.
>
>>The better defense against a kick is not to catch it but to move in on it,
>>in which case the kicker is in real trouble.
>
>
>...Moving in on the kick is kinda essential to the success of catching it.
If you catch it you didn't move in enough.
>
>>If someone really does catch your kick (and is not a gorilla or wearing
>body
>>armor), the simplest thing to do is just to punch him or even kick himwith
>the
>>same or other foot.
>
>
>That's possible, but where does your power for your strike come from?
Who needs power at point blank range? Part of the idea in training in striking
is to be able to do damage by striking vital points when you are not in good
position.
>You're relatively off-balance on one leg, even if you are skilled at
>kicking. Granted, there *are* moves where you jump up, spin around and kick
>them with the other foot, but they are... low percentge... shall we say?
I was think more about knee shots myself, perhaps combined with grabbing.
>
>I think you underrate the catcher's ability to strike, also.
Only because we are assuming that there is something to do. If the defender
knew what he was doing you would already be down.
.If I've
>managed to catch a round kick, I'll be moving in, and probably my technique
>of choice would be to elbow strike to the throat/face/upper chest to upset
>balance and then reap the supporting leg to throw. Notice the elbow strike
>in there, which I'm throwing from a position of balance, with control of
>your position.
>
>On balance (no pun intended), I would favour Frank's suggestions involving
>grappling techniques over hitting, unless you are blessed with enough
>balance to get a good strike in.
>
>>The fact that he caught your foot and has not already done horrible things
>to
>>you suggests that he was surprised by his own catch.
>
>Fair comment.
>
>>God knows what type of fight this is, but once a good fighter has grabbed
>your
>>leg, he is going to hit and dump you on your head in no time.
>
>
>Agreed also, but doesn't this contradict your earlier assertions about
>striking/kicking someone who has grabbed your leg?
I am assuming that I am not dealing with a good fighter. Its like hearing
bullets whiz around you. One can conclude that you are not dealing with a
sharpshooter since he missed.
>
>>I would get my leg back as fast as possible by punching, and hope tht I get
>it
>>back before my opponent figures out what to do with it. If you start to
>>grapple, he is going to figure out what to do right away.
>
>
>We're kind of presupposing that you're a competent grappler. I still don't
>like the theory that you can just "get your leg back" after it's been
>caught, though.
If you start whacking the guy with two hands in the face it will take his mind
off the leg every time.
>It's not a reliable premise on which to base your defence,
>and reliability is what I want if I'm at a disadvantage.
If you wanted reliability you should have not done a waist high kick.
>
>>>> My advice is NOT to stand there and try to hit him while he's holding
>>>> your leg in the air. Something I always tell my students: Do not try
>>>> to implement a striking solution to a grappling problem. A grappling
>>>> problem requires a grappling solution.
>>
>>Interestingly, in this situation your opponent has done very well by
>bringing a
>>grappling solution to a striking problem. I say pound in his face while
>you
>>have two hands to his one.
>
>
>With my JJ hat on, it is *much* easier to bring grappling to a striking
>fight than vice versa. It's easier to close distance/get a grip than it is
>to open it again or break a grip.
Who wants to open it? I'll be glad to pound you at point blank range. Who
wants to break your grip? You increase my impact power by holding and you dont
have hands to cover. You must have seen old movies where one guy hands the
other his hat and then pops him in the face.
> It's as simple as that. I'm not saying
>that you *can't* ever punch/kick your way out of this situation, but I feel
>that grappling techniques, such as those FB described originally, are
>significantly more reliable in the long run.
It depends who you are. My point was that unless your opponent can immediately
make use of the leg grab, it is a mistake that you can take advantage of.
>
>>>> Same reason why most strikers can't stop a shooter. They're using a
>>>> striking solution to a grappling problem.
>>
>>I would say the reason is the same that your leg got caught. At the last
>>second you decided you didn't need to break this guy's ribs and let him
>catch
>>you instead of you hurting him.
>
>
>I respectfully suggest that your complete faith in kicks is misplaced.
>Kicks are a very useful tool in a fighter's armoury, but to suggest that
>your kicking is so much better than every grappler's defence that you had
>the luxury of choosing whether to break his ribs with a single kick is maybe
>just a little arrogant, wouldn't you say?
No more arrogant than the grapplers assumption that he wont be hurt by kicks
and strike in a real as opposed to a training situation.
>
>>Shooters rely on strikers not being quite ready to smash a knee into their
>face
>>to prove a point.
>
>
>Nope. They rely on setting up the shoot well, covering as they go in and
>getting the balance (or at least to a clinch) without giving a striker an
>opportunity to really hurt them.
Of course if a striker could rely on setting up well, covering as she went in,
without giving a stiker an opportunity to really hurt her, she would be able to
knock the other striker's head off and would be the world champion striker. Do
you think that when two strikers fight they are trying to do something
different?
> I'd be interested to see how you knee a
>shooter in the face through the points of both elbows,
I will go my knee against your elbow most anytime. Why do you think srikers
never though of the idea of covering?
>which is a serious
>risk in attempting that knee-in-the-face counter. There's a good reason
>that things like the sprawl are favoured in combined striking/grappling
>competitions, and that reason is that striking as a counter to a shoot is
>not reliable.
How is this determined? You really try very hard to knee each other in the
face in practice don't you?
> Stop the shoot, then strike all you like, but do stop the
>shoot first.
It depends what is going to happen on the way down.
>
>>>>Solve the grappling problem first, and you can hit all you want.
>>>>
>>Hit them first, and there is no grappling problem and you don't have
>>to get all dirty.
>
>
>True (if the hit works well enough), but the point of this thread was
>discussion of what happens when that is not the case.
So you are saying that if your striking doesn't work and won't work, you might
as well try grappling. Who would argue with that?
>
>>>Don't forget that the person holding your leg isn't going to just stand
>>>there for you to do something.
>>>My first target in a self defence situation would be to snap the knee of
>the
>>>person whose leg i'm holding.
>>
>>My "first" target would probably be to hit the kicker in the crotch.
>
>
>I find that a very poor strategy. If I have caught your leg, one of the
>easiest things for me to do without moving my feet is to lift it up and push
>it away. Your chances of hitting me in the groin area at that point are...
>slim.
I said hit the kicker. My point is that if a high kick fails, the kicker is in
such shit that there are 101 things you can do to him.
> Added to the fact that a guy's fastest reflex is to protect his
>privates, and you're on a loser there.
>
The kicker doesn't have anything there to protect it with. It is very effective
to strike the groin or femoral artery as you move in on a kick. It is much
more useful than grabbing the leg.
>Groin strikes are *vastly* overrated.
Are you speaking from experience? They sure seem to distract guys pretty well.
>By the way, speaking as someone who has been unfortunate enough to take a
>very heavy groin strike (which is, no offence, something you are unlikely to
>be familiar with), I will offer two facts for your amusement at this time.
>Firstly, after receiving a heavy groin strike, the recipient will chuck up.
>Secondly, before doing so, they will probably have time and be sufficiently
>annoyed to rip you to shreds in response. If you think someone full of
>adrenaline seems to feel no pain, just see how hard it is to stop someone
>who's nuts you've just crushed.
Is that why that always say to keep holding them?
>
>>>And if he even thinks about hopping closer, being a judoka, i would
>flatten
>>>him like a pizza.
>>
>>If he was going to hop closer, he would have already hopped closer.
>
>What, in the middle of the kick that he didn't know was going to be caught?
Yes, change it to a knee strike. That actually can be a good move -- threaten
a roundhouse and catch him with a knee as he comes in to catch the kick.
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> Pretty much, by definition, if someone catches it, it was not thrown by a
> skillful kicker.
Ridiculous. That's like saying that Martina Hingis is not a skillful tennis player
if one of her serves get returned.
> <snip>
> >Agreed also, but doesn't this contradict your earlier assertions about
> >striking/kicking someone who has grabbed your leg?
>
> I am assuming that I am not dealing with a good fighter.
Then you're stupid. Good thing you've never had a fight: your opponent might have
died of laughter.
Mehran
EisMadchen
>
>EisMadchen wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> Pretty much, by definition, if someone catches it, it was not thrown by a
>> skillful kicker.
>
>Ridiculous. That's like saying that Martina Hingis is not a skillful tennis
>player
>if one of her serves get returned.
That's not the end of the match. Its not even a point. Getting your leg caught
is the end of the match, or in a fight the end of your life. It is not a
little mistake.
Skillful martial artists tend to shy away from risky maneuvers. I would go
farther and say that martial artists who a primarily interested in fighting
rather than matches are exceptionally cautious.
>
>> <snip>
>> >Agreed also, but doesn't this contradict your earlier assertions about
>> >striking/kicking someone who has grabbed your leg?
>>
>> I am assuming that I am not dealing with a good fighter.
>
>Then you're stupid. Good thing you've never had a fight: your opponent might
>have
>died of laughter.
We are posing the situation that the kicker has just performed a terrible
technique and the opponent has not made the best advantage of it. If we assume
the opponent was competent, the kicker is dead, so there is not much to do.
On the more general issue, if one is more concerned with self-defense, one
prefers techniques that work 100 out of 100 times against weaker opponents than
ones that work 80% 0f the time against stronger opponents. With the 80%
techniques you will be dead after just a few encounters anyway. You might as
well have not practiced.
But in a contest or match situation, 80% is not all that bad. Since you don't
die when you lose, you can still end up with a good score.
.
EisMadchen
>Date: 5/17/99 3:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <37407276...@primary.net>
>
>EisMadchen wrote:
>> If you start whacking the guy with two hands in the face it will take his
>mind
>> off the leg every time.
>
>flexible are all you folks?
I can easily touch my toe to my nose. If you can't, I think you had better
just forget about any kicks above the knees. (Which is probably a good idea
anyway.)
>If someone catches my foot/ankle while I'm
>doing a roundhouse kick to his waist then he may as well be in Pittsburg
>as far as me punching him is concerned. Try going to a wall and put
>your foot up on it about waist high and try to punch the wall.
The other issue is when you realize the kick is going to fail. If you realize
it only when your opponent is locking it you are in sorry shape. If you figure
it out a little sooner you can turn it into a knee strike or at least get the
knee bent enough so it is not going to get locked.
>If you
>can reach it at all you're in good shape. If you can punch it with any
>power you're probably double jointed somewhere. I'm sure someone will
>say "just bend the leg" but that's a heck of a lot easier said than
>done.
You indeed can't wait until you are locked to start trying to rescue yourself.
>
>That's why I like the "step down onto the trapped leg" move.
With most of the guys I practice with it would be stepping up into their arms.
-- Which is kind of fun on other occasions, but not while sparring.
>It gets me
>close enough to hit him, it keeps at least one of his hands occupied,
>and at best throws him off balance.
Also if he is doing the right thing he his entering toward you quite
forcefully. Even if he is the same size he is going to knock you on your ass.
>
>> Who wants to open it? I'll be glad to pound you at point blank range. Who
>> wants to break your grip? You increase my impact power by holding and you
>dont
>> have hands to cover. You must have seen old movies where one guy hands the
>> other his hat and then pops him in the face.
>
>Sure, just go ahead and open your mouth, Eis. Soon hats will be banned
>as weapons.
>
They are in Massachusetts. A woman was jailed a few years ago for assault with
a deadly hat pin.
>Ray "I'll give up my hat when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers"
>Wagner
You might like the other one of taking your hat, sticking it in a guys face,
and then punching through it. In case you have never been hit by a punch you
didn't see, it is a much different experience.
>
>
>
>
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> >Ridiculous. That's like saying that Martina Hingis is not a skillful tennis
> >player
> >if one of her serves get returned.
>
> That's not the end of the match. Its not even a point. Getting your leg caught
> is the end of the match, or in a fight the end of your life. It is not a
> little mistake.
>
While what you say is melodramatic, it is a diversion: that fact that her serve is
'countered' does not mean that she's bad @ serving: You talk about MA like a
sixteen year old ninja wanna be from 1983.
>
> Skillful martial artists tend to shy away from risky maneuvers. I would go
> farther and say that martial artists who a primarily interested in fighting
> rather than matches are exceptionally cautious.
Based on what? Your own (admittedly non existent) fighting experience? While the
truth can be uttered by fools(as it is in your post), let's not forget that we're
talking about a fool here.
>
> >
> >> <snip>
> >> >Agreed also, but doesn't this contradict your earlier assertions about
> >> >striking/kicking someone who has grabbed your leg?
> >>
> >> I am assuming that I am not dealing with a good fighter.
> >
> >Then you're stupid. Good thing you've never had a fight: your opponent might
> >have
> >died of laughter.
>
> We are posing the situation that the kicker has just performed a terrible
> technique and the opponent has not made the best advantage of it. If we assume
> the opponent was competent, the kicker is dead, so there is not much to do.
No, we are assuming that the kicker has performed a kick and that it has been
caught. How we are considering what the kicker's best options are: your 'roll over
and die' stratagem, as helpful as it is, is a bit unrealistic.
>
>
> On the more general issue, if one is more concerned with self-defense, one
> prefers techniques that work 100 out of 100 times against weaker opponents than
> ones that work 80% 0f the time against stronger opponents.
You say the darnest things: why, for example, would you need to study self
protection against people who are 'weaker' then you? Get into it with many girl
scouts?
> With the 80%
> techniques you will be dead after just a few encounters anyway. You might as
> well have not practiced.
Stupid, stupid, stupid comment.
Mehran
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
>
> I can easily touch my toe to my nose.
Deformed feet are not laughing matter. Maybe you can get surgery?
Mehran
Chris Newton
I notice that, both in your response to my post and in response to Mehran's
follow-up, you say that against a competent grappler, you're basically dead
if your kick gets caught (and hence we can ignore that situation, etc.). I
think this is precisely the point that Frank made originally. If you rely
on striking techniques to counter the leg grab, you are more likely to get
taken out. I believe that this was precisely why he was advocating mainly
grappling responses to the position. If you are proficient with the sorts
of counters he talks about, you *aren't* necessarily dead just because you
got your kick caught. With that said, let me address the remainder of your
points...
EisMadchen wrote...
>>"Chris Newton" <ca...@spamfree.cam.ac.uk>
>>Date: 5/17/99 9:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time
[snip]
>>Sorry, but I disagree. Catching a round kick thrown, say, waist height or
>>higher, is not an unlikely scenario, even if thrown by a skilful kicker.
As
>>you say, though...
>
>Pretty much, by definition, if someone catches it, it was not thrown by a
>skillful kicker.
Or they just threw it at a more skilful (or luckier) grappler. Everyone
makes mistakes!
>I can hardly imagine ever using one, but if I did I would make sure
>the opponent was too off-balance to do anything but get hit. A waist
>high kick is a high risk move at best. You had better be sure that the
>opponent is a target rather than a potential grappler.
That's a fair comment, and most decent kickers would probably agree. It
doesn't rule out the fact that the person you're fighting might just be
faking on you, though, or that you might slip, or...
>>...Moving in on the kick is kinda essential to the success of catching it.
>
>If you catch it you didn't move in enough.
Sorry, I don't follow that at all. I reckon it's much easier to catch a
kicking leg nearer the waist, simply because that part of the leg doesn't
move so fast. I would never try to catch a kick out near the striking area
where the power is, given a choice.
>>That's possible, but where does your power for your strike come from?
>
>Who needs power at point blank range? Part of the idea in training in
striking
>is to be able to do damage by striking vital points when you are not in
good
>position.
You need a certain amount of power wherever you're striking, even if it's
somewhere like the eyes or the groin, if it's going to have a worthwhile
effect. Hitting the right places may reduce significantly the amount of
power you need, but it doesn't eliminate it altogether.
>>I think you underrate the catcher's ability to strike, also.
>
>Only because we are assuming that there is something to do. If the
defender
>knew what he was doing you would already be down.
Unless you're trying the grappling defences we were originally talking
about...
>>Agreed also, but doesn't this contradict your earlier assertions about
>>striking/kicking someone who has grabbed your leg?
>
>I am assuming that I am not dealing with a good fighter.
We aren't, though!
>Its like hearing bullets whiz around you. One can conclude that you
>are not dealing with a sharpshooter since he missed.
Or you were lucky. Or it stuck in your kevlar vest (in which case you were
lucky :-)).
>>We're kind of presupposing that you're a competent grappler. I still
don't
>>like the theory that you can just "get your leg back" after it's been
>>caught, though.
>
>If you start whacking the guy with two hands in the face it will take his
mind
>off the leg every time.
Or it will get him upset and make him really dump you, depending. Exactly
how much distraction do you think a good smack in the face rates against
someone used the heavy contact sparring, Eis?
>>With my JJ hat on, it is *much* easier to bring grappling to a striking
>>fight than vice versa. It's easier to close distance/get a grip than it
is
>>to open it again or break a grip.
>
>Who wants to open it? I'll be glad to pound you at point blank range. Who
>wants to break your grip? You increase my impact power by holding and you
dont
>have hands to cover. You must have seen old movies where one guy hands the
>other his hat and then pops him in the face.
I fail to see how having a solid grip on you, with which I can affect your
balance and ability to move quickly, increases your impact power. I would
have thought quite the opposite would be true.
>>I respectfully suggest that your complete faith in kicks is misplaced.
>>Kicks are a very useful tool in a fighter's armoury, but to suggest that
>>your kicking is so much better than every grappler's defence that you had
>>the luxury of choosing whether to break his ribs with a single kick is
maybe
>>just a little arrogant, wouldn't you say?
>
>No more arrogant than the grapplers assumption that he wont be hurt by
kicks
>and strike in a real as opposed to a training situation.
I'm not assuming a grappler won't be hurt, just that they won't be hurt
enough to stop them from keeping a successful catch. You, on the other
hand, were assuming that you could invariably kick hard enough to break
someone's ribs. Bit of a difference, no?
>>Nope. They rely on setting up the shoot well, covering as they go in and
>>getting the balance (or at least to a clinch) without giving a striker an
>>opportunity to really hurt them.
>
>Of course if a striker could rely on setting up well, covering as she went
in,
>without giving a stiker an opportunity to really hurt her, she would be
able to
>knock the other striker's head off and would be the world champion striker.
Do
>you think that when two strikers fight they are trying to do something
>different?
Yes, they're doing something completely different. A grappler can maintain
a reasonable guard when closing in, because they aren't necessarily using
their hands to attack with. The same doesn't apply with a striker, because
they are hitting, which necessarily compromises their guard to an extent.
>> I'd be interested to see how you knee a
>>shooter in the face through the points of both elbows,
>
>I will go my knee against your elbow most anytime. Why do you think
srikers
>never though of the idea of covering?
But chances are that it won't be you knee against my elbow, it will be the
top of your thigh against my elbow. Think about the mechanics. I never
suggested strikers hadn't thought of covering, but strikers rarely try to
punch each other in the kneecaps either...
>>which is a serious
>>risk in attempting that knee-in-the-face counter. There's a good reason
>>that things like the sprawl are favoured in combined striking/grappling
>>competitions, and that reason is that striking as a counter to a shoot is
>>not reliable.
>
>How is this determined? You really try very hard to knee each other in the
>face in practice don't you?
Actually, you can get full body training suits so that you can do just that.
They basically provide armour and support for the joints so that you can
really lay into someone. Failing that, try a decent crash helmet instead.
It's most enlightening.
>>Stop the shoot, then strike all you like, but do stop the shoot first.
>
>It depends what is going to happen on the way down.
Go on...
>>True (if the hit works well enough), but the point of this thread was
>>discussion of what happens when that is not the case.
>
>So you are saying that if your striking doesn't work and won't work, you
might
>as well try grappling. Who would argue with that?
You, apparently. FB said much the same thing originally, but you said that
it would be easier to punch/kick your way out. You then repeatedly
qualified these assertions by saying that you were assuming your opponent
wasn't competent!
>>I find that a very poor strategy. If I have caught your leg, one of the
>>easiest things for me to do without moving my feet is to lift it up and
push
>>it away. Your chances of hitting me in the groin area at that point
are...
>>slim.
>
>I said hit the kicker. My point is that if a high kick fails, the kicker
is in
>such shit that there are 101 things you can do to him.
My apologies, I misread your original post. Attacking the crotch or inner
thigh area of a kicker whose leg you have trapped is not what I was thinking
of when I replied.
>>Groin strikes are *vastly* overrated.
>
>Are you speaking from experience? They sure seem to distract guys pretty
well.
Actually, yes, I am. All of the following (copied below) was based on some
unfortunate training accidents in the past. Yes, groin strikes can be a
nasty distraction, but there's a world of difference between distracting a
guy and stopping him. Trust me, if you distract him but don't stop him,
he's going to be really upset with you (for a few seconds - then he'll go be
sick).
>>By the way, speaking as someone who has been unfortunate enough to take a
>>very heavy groin strike (which is, no offence, something you are unlikely
to
>>be familiar with), I will offer two facts for your amusement at this time.
>>Firstly, after receiving a heavy groin strike, the recipient will chuck
up.
>>Secondly, before doing so, they will probably have time and be
sufficiently
>>annoyed to rip you to shreds in response. If you think someone full of
>>adrenaline seems to feel no pain, just see how hard it is to stop someone
>>who's nuts you've just crushed.
[snip]
>>What, in the middle of the kick that he didn't know was going to be
caught?
>
>Yes, change it to a knee strike. That actually can be a good move --
threaten
>a roundhouse and catch him with a knee as he comes in to catch the kick.
That can indeed be a good move. I hate it when people do that to me,
especially when I don't read it and still try the catch... :-/
FB
> Gichoke wrote:
>
> > Actually going into a rolling kneebar when your opponent picks up your leg can
> > be effective
>
> How would that work?
>
> M
Funny he brings that up, because I was planning on covering that in a follow-up
article.
In short, you can't get a rolling knee bar if he is standing inside your leg and
holding it -- as in the case of him catching your round kick. He has to be either
on the outside of your leg, or with your leg in between his legs.
You can also knee bar, heel hook, or ankle lock him from the backward sweep I
detailed in another post. You would do the lock against the ankle/leg you grabbed
with your hand (generally, the "near" one when he's standing).
FB
> EisMadchen wrote:
> >
> > The other issue is when you realize the kick is going to fail. If you realize
> > it only when your opponent is locking it you are in sorry shape. If you figure
> > it out a little sooner you can turn it into a knee strike or at least get the
> > knee bent enough so it is not going to get locked.
> ...
> > You indeed can't wait until you are locked to start trying to rescue yourself.
>
> Aha, there's the problem. The original question was "what if he already
> has your leg". There is no pre-emptive strike involved. The scenario
> was that you threw a kick and he catches..where to go from there.
This, BTW, is why I do not respond to posts by that particular person (even when said
person jumps into a thread that I started), because she refuses to acknowledge the
situation we're talking about.
If you ask her how to put a fire out, you'll get the response that you shouldn't let
a fire start in the first place. You then say, yes, granted, but how would you put
the fire out if it started? Then you get a response like, if it doesn't involve
gasoline it's not a real fire anyway. Then it proceeds in a tedious circle from
there.
If a person has decided that being "right" or "winning" the "argument" is more
important to them than evolving and finding answers, then they can always fall back
on their own "chewbacca defense" and walk away feeling like they've "won". I don't
see where it's particularly worthwhile to do this, but then I talked about this at
length already on the thread "What it takes into Account Part II".
Mehran Habibi
FB wrote:
> <snip> You then say, yes, granted, but how would you put
> the fire out if it started? Then you get a response like, if it doesn't involve
> gasoline it's not a real fire anyway. Then it proceeds in a tedious circle from
> there.
>
LOL: I should take all sortsa lessons from you.
Mehran
Russell L. Rader
But that would involve not responding to her posts. ;-)
Russ
EisMadchen
>
>EisMadchen wrote:
>>
>> The other issue is when you realize the kick is going to fail. If you
>realize
>> it only when your opponent is locking it you are in sorry shape. If you
>figure
>> it out a little sooner you can turn it into a knee strike or at least get
>the
>> knee bent enough so it is not going to get locked.
>...
>> You indeed can't wait until you are locked to start trying to rescue
>yourself.
>
>Aha, there's the problem. The original question was "what if he already
>has your leg".
Give me a break. You already have me doing a stupid kick badly, and now I cant
start escaping until I am locked. Why not make me wait until my leg is broken
or my face planted and then ask what I would do?
>There is no pre-emptive strike involved. The scenario
>was that you threw a kick and he catches..where to go from there.
There is catching and there is catching. If I "catch" a leg, my opponent will
be falling backward and recovering from a hard face or throat punch before the
"catch" is complete. Against that sort of catch you try to cover a bit and get
ready to do a nasty breakfall.
If the catcher is less sophistocated you start bending the knee and trying to
maintain some separation as soon as you realize the technique will fail.
(Which probably should have been before you threw it).
>
>> With most of the guys I practice with it would be stepping up into their
>arms.
>
>That would put your non-trapped knee awfully close to their face, no?
Unfortunately his other hand is between the two and close to my face. I think
this might be the time to smile and say "hi there, big boy" instead of trying
to hit him.
>
>> Also if he is doing the right thing he his entering toward you quite
>> forcefully. Even if he is the same size he is going to knock you on your
>ass.
>
>At least I'd be well padded.
>
>> >Ray "I'll give up my hat when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers"
>> >Wagner
>>
>> You might like the other one of taking your hat, sticking it in a guys
>face,
>> and then punching through it. In case you have never been hit by a punch
>you
>> didn't see, it is a much different experience.
>
>More times than I like to talk about.
>
>Ray "bet you didn't see THAT nose block coming!" Wagner
You should get together with Mr Habibi on that sort of technique.
I rather like my nose the way it is.
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> ><snip>
>
> I rather like my nose the way it is.
We're talking about the shnoza you're always rubbing up against yer big feet?
M
EisMadchen
>Ray Wagner wrote:
>
>> EisMadchen wrote:
>> >
>> > The other issue is when you realize the kick is going to fail. If you
>realize
>> > it only when your opponent is locking it you are in sorry shape. If you
>figure
>> > it out a little sooner you can turn it into a knee strike or at least get
>the
>> > knee bent enough so it is not going to get locked.
>> ...
>> > You indeed can't wait until you are locked to start trying to rescue
>yourself.
>>
>> Aha, there's the problem. The original question was "what if he already
>> was that you threw a kick and he catches..where to go from there.
As you can see the way he caught it determines what you can do. On one end
you can do nothing, on the other end you nail him with a hard knee striking in
the ribs.
>
>This, BTW, is why I do not respond to posts by that particular person (even
>when said
>person jumps into a thread that I started), because she refuses to
>acknowledge the
>situation we're talking about.
>
>If you ask her how to put a fire out, you'll get the response that you
>shouldn't let
>a fire start in the first place.
Which, of course, usually is the best solution to the problem of a fire.
>You then say, yes, granted, but how would
>you put
>the fire out if it started? Then you get a response like, if it doesn't
>involve
>gasoline it's not a real fire anyway. Then it proceeds in a tedious circle
>from
>there.
Well, that is close.
The question is "how do you put out a fire." I think to myself, "well, I
don't want a fire in the first place."
Then you say "but what if it is already started". And I say, "well it was
stupid to start it", and you say but you wanted to started it. And I say but
why did you want to start it. And you say because it was a candle on your
birthday cake. And I say -- you call that a fire??!!!
>
EisMadchen
>Date: 5/18/99 2:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3741B3A5...@cis.ohio-state.edu>
>
>
>
>EisMadchen wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> >What about the hump on your back? Doctors give you any hope on that , or
>are
>> >you
>> >still ringing the bells and crying for 'sanctuary'?
>> >
>> No hump. I am the one with good posture, Remember?
>
>No, you just have a stick up your ass.
You are the only person every to say that to me!
>
>> Though I do imagine you to
>> be rather gnome like.
>
>Funny, they never complained @ the modeling agency. Then again, that was a
>while
>ago.
>
Were they looking for models for gargoyles?
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <wsnip>
> >> No hump. I am the one with good posture, Remember?
> >
> >No, you just have a stick up your ass.
>
> You are the only person every to say that to me!
Eis, I believe that you're fibbing.
> <snip>
> >Funny, they never complained @ the modeling agency. Then again, that was a
> >while
> >ago.
> >
> Were they looking for models for gargoyles?
Nope: clothing, body, and motion models. But I'll let you know if anything tuen
up for a gargoyle model.
Mehran
EisMadchen
>>
>> If so, it was yours. You came up with the tennis example. Giving your
>> opponent huge opportunity is a failure of your technique.
>
>Lie _and_ diversion. Nice combo.
You say did not mention tennis?
I note that you still avoided answer my clear statement about "giving your
opponent opportunity"
>
>> <snip>
>> >I'm completely right: The fact that you see even half of it is better then
>> >usual.
>>
>> No, you are only have right, and deluded as usual.
>
>English much?
>
>> <snip>
>
>> <snip>
>> > And, for that matter, @ what point
>> >did you
>> >decide to redefine this to a 'HIGH' kick?
>>
>> A waist high kick is pretty high to me.
>
>That's because you've never practiced martial arts.
No that is because I don't much like martial sports.
>
>> <snip>
>> >
>> >Fortune cookie today? I'd get a refund. This one to one, forced
>correlation
>> >between being physically weaker and being a less able fighter is not one
>that
>> >exists in the world the rest of live in.
>>
>> Weaker commonly can mean "weaker fighter" as well as physically weaker.
>You
>> were the one that asked why one would train to fight weaker opponents.
>Taking
>> your statement to mean physically weaker would make even less sense. You
>are
>> just trying to cover up the issue that your basic concept of macho fighting
>> doesn't make sense.
>
>Sure Eis, whatever. It's amazing how you can tie yourself into a pretzel with
>your
>own words.
>
It is actually just your mind that gets tied up Mr Habibi when it tries to
follow moderately complex thoughts.
>> <snip>
>> >> I wanted to be a boy scout anyway.
>> >
>> >I'm sure you were often mistaken for one.
>> >
>> No, I was too tall and gawky and I had long hair.
>
>And, apparently, feel like a penguin.
>
>Mehran
You seem to be much closer to the build of a penguin (you are about the same
height as an emperor peguin too, arent you?) Your coloration is no doubt
closer too.
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> >> If so, it was yours. You came up with the tennis example. Giving your
> >> opponent huge opportunity is a failure of your technique.
> >
> >Lie _and_ diversion. Nice combo.
>
> You say did not mention tennis?
> I note that you still avoided answer my clear statement about "giving your
> opponent opportunity"
Eis, you nit: you 'give your opponent opportunity' by taking breath. That's not
the fucking point. The point is, can you stop him from taking advantage of that
opportunity?
> <snip>
> >> A waist high kick is pretty high to me.
> >
> >That's because you've never practiced martial arts.
>
> No that is because I don't much like martial sports.
Big to differ, you yeti-ness: you can't provide _one_ MA credential. Your posts
about your ma 'knowledge' are a joke, _and_ you troll. Really Eis, there's not
very to you @ all.
> <snip>
> >Sure Eis, whatever. It's amazing how you can tie yourself into a pretzel with
> >your
> >own words.
> >
> It is actually just your mind that gets tied up Mr Habibi when it tries to
> follow moderately complex thoughts.
Finish high school, get a couple of masters degrees and _then_ come back and talk
to me about 'complex ideas'.
> <Snip>
> >Mehran
>
> You seem to be much closer to the build of a penguin (you are about the same
> height as an emperor peguin too, arent you?) Your coloration is no doubt
> closer too.
Ah, off color racist remarks when all eis fails: Must be getting desperate eis.
true, I'm 5'8: but I'm hardly a penguin. difficult to be so with 6% body fat. AS
for coloring: aren't the belies of bengins lilly white, life yourself?
Mehran
EisMadchen
>Date: 5/17/99 8:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3740BB2E...@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Being tall and a dancer that is probably closer to home than you want to know.
You can get surgery for noses too you know.
>
>
>
>
EisMadchen
>Date: 5/17/99 8:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3740B97C...@cis.ohio-state.edu>
>
>
>
>EisMadchen wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> >Ridiculous. That's like saying that Martina Hingis is not a skillful
>tennis
>> >player
>> >if one of her serves get returned.
>>
>> That's not the end of the match. Its not even a point. Getting your leg
>caught
>> is the end of the match, or in a fight the end of your life. It is not a
>> little mistake.
>>
>
>While what you say is melodramatic, it is a diversion: that fact that her
>serve is
>'countered' does not mean that she's bad @ serving:
If the serve can be returned like a cannonball down the line it does in fact
mean that it was a bad serve.
>You talk about MA like a
>sixteen year old ninja wanna be from 1983.
??? What can you say to that?
>
>>
>> Skillful martial artists tend to shy away from risky maneuvers. I would go
>> farther and say that martial artists who a primarily interested in fighting
>> rather than matches are exceptionally cautious.
>
>Based on what? Your own (admittedly non existent) fighting experience?
I have a great deal of experience trainng in self-defense.
> While the truth can be uttered by fools
>(as it is in your post),
Well, you are half right (which is much better than usual),
>let's not forget that
>we're talking about a fool here.
Indeed we are.
>
>>
>> >
>> >> <snip>
>> >> >Agreed also, but doesn't this contradict your earlier assertions about
>> >> >striking/kicking someone who has grabbed your leg?
>> >>
>> >> I am assuming that I am not dealing with a good fighter.
>> >
>> >Then you're stupid. Good thing you've never had a fight: your opponent
>might
>> >have
>> >died of laughter.
>>
>> We are posing the situation that the kicker has just performed a terrible
>> technique and the opponent has not made the best advantage of it. If we
>assume
>> the opponent was competent, the kicker is dead, so there is not much to do.
>
>No, we are assuming that the kicker has performed a kick and that it has been
>caught.
A HIGH kick that got caught -not brushed asiide, or ducked, or dodged, or
blocked -- but CAUGHT. That is a huge mistake, an irrecoverable error.
> How we are considering what the kicker's best options are: your 'roll
>over
>and die' stratagem, as helpful as it is, is a bit unrealistic.
>
We are, but for the kicker to have that option, we should note that we ave to
assume that his opponent was not that shap.
>>
>>
>> On the more general issue, if one is more concerned with self-defense, one
>> prefers techniques that work 100 out of 100 times against weaker opponents
>than
>> ones that work 80% 0f the time against stronger opponents.
>
>You say the darnest things: why, for example, would you need to study self
>protection against people who are 'weaker' then you?
Self defense doesnt work against people who fight better than you do. They
kill you anyway.
Self defense works against people who don't fight as well as you do. The
purpose of training is to put as many people in that category.
> Get into it with many girl scouts?
Only a few, then they were afraid of me.
I wanted to be a boy scout anyway.
>
>> With the 80%
>> techniques you will be dead after just a few encounters anyway. You might
>as
>> well have not practiced.
>
>Stupid, stupid, stupid Mehran
Gichoke
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> >> I can easily touch my toe to my nose.
> >
> >Deformed feet are not laughing matter. Maybe you can get surgery?
> >
> >Mehran
>
> Being tall and a dancer that is probably closer to home than you want to know.
>
> You can get surgery for noses too you know.
> ><snip>
What about the hump on your back? Doctors give you any hope on that , or are you
still ringing the bells and crying for 'sanctuary'?
Mehran
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> >While what you say is melodramatic, it is a diversion: that fact that her
> >serve is
> >'countered' does not mean that she's bad @ serving:
>
> If the serve can be returned like a cannonball down the line it does in fact
> mean that it was a bad serve.
>
Another diversion.
>
> >You talk about MA like a
> >sixteen year old ninja wanna be from 1983.
> ??? What can you say to that?
Just absorb it.
> >> Skillful martial artists tend to shy away from risky maneuvers. I would go
> >> farther and say that martial artists who a primarily interested in fighting
> >> rather than matches are exceptionally cautious.
> >
> >Based on what? Your own (admittedly non existent) fighting experience?
>
> I have a great deal of experience trainng in self-defense.
sure you do Eis: You and the eight Martial arts you've 'mastered' for the past
twenty years(sic) _and_ the professional dancing.
> > While the truth can be uttered by fools
> >(as it is in your post),
>
> Well, you are half right (which is much better than usual),
I'm completely right: The fact that you see even half of it is better then usual.
> >let's not forget that
> >we're talking about a fool here.
>
> Indeed we are.
Well, there are other things in life besides intelligence. With those big feet,
could you get a job in shoe store?
> <snip>
> >
> >No, we are assuming that the kicker has performed a kick and that it has been
> >caught.
>
> A HIGH kick that got caught -not brushed asiide, or ducked, or dodged, or
> blocked -- but CAUGHT. That is a huge mistake, an irrecoverable error.
Nonsense. It's recovered from everyday. And, for that matter, @ what point did you
decide to redefine this to a 'HIGH' kick?
> > How we are considering what the kicker's best options are: your 'roll
> >over
> >and die' stratagem, as helpful as it is, is a bit unrealistic.
> >
> We are, but for the kicker to have that option, we should note that we ave to
> assume that his opponent was not that shap.
English much?
> <snip>
> >You say the darnest things: why, for example, would you need to study self
> >protection against people who are 'weaker' then you?
>
> Self defense doesnt work against people who fight better than you do. They
> kill you anyway.
Fortune cookie today? I'd get a refund. This one to one, forced correlation
between being physically weaker and being a less able fighter is not one that
exists in the world the rest of live in. You should visit: call first though.
>
>
> Self defense works against people who don't fight as well as you do. The
> purpose of training is to put as many people in that category.
>
> > Get into it with many girl scouts?
> Only a few, then they were afraid of me.
>
> I wanted to be a boy scout anyway.
I'm sure you were often mistaken for one.
Mehran
Mehran Habibi
Gichoke wrote:
> Actually going into a rolling kneebar when your opponent picks up your leg can
> be effective
How would that work?
M
Bryan P.M. Chu
EisMadchen wrote:
> > Mehran Habibi <hab...@cis.ohio-state.edu>
> >
>
>
> Moving gargoyles? Are you going to be in a disney animation?
>
Ok, I'm lost here... if Mehran was the gargoyle in Disney's "Hunchback," and you
said you weren't Quasimodo... then which one of the "good posture people" were
you? Phoebus, Esmeralda, or Frolio? =-D
So I'm a Disney nut, what can I say?
Bryan
>
> >But I'll let you know if anything
> >tuen
> >up for a gargoyle model.
>
> I am sure you have all the contacts.
> >
> >Mehran
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Bryan P.M. Chu
EisMadchen wrote:
(snip)
>
> Well, that is close.
>
> The question is "how do you put out a fire." I think to myself, "well, I
> don't want a fire in the first place."
>
> Then you say "but what if it is already started". And I say, "well it was
> stupid to start it", and you say but you wanted to started it. And I say but
> why did you want to start it. And you say because it was a candle on your
> birthday cake. And I say -- you call that a fire??!!!
> >
Eis, I've got to hand it to you... you're a riot. Of course it could be that the
big plate of pot stickers I just ate has left me in an easily amused state of mind
too... =^D
Bryan
EisMadchen
>Date: 5/18/99 1:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3741A27B...@cis.ohio-state.edu>
>
>
>
>EisMadchen wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> >While what you say is melodramatic, it is a diversion: that fact that her
>> >serve is
>> >'countered' does not mean that she's bad @ serving:
>>
>> If the serve can be returned like a cannonball down the line it does in
>fact
>> mean that it was a bad serve.
>>
>
>Another diversion.
If so, it was yours. You came up with the tennis example. Giving your
opponent huge opportunity is a failure of your technique.
>
>>
>> >You talk about MA like a
>> >sixteen year old ninja wanna be from 1983.
>> ??? What can you say to that?
>
>Just absorb it.
Not sinking in yet.
>
>> >> Skillful martial artists tend to shy away from risky maneuvers. I would
>go
>> >> farther and say that martial artists who a primarily interested in
>fighting
>> >> rather than matches are exceptionally cautious.
>> >
>
>> > While the truth can be uttered by fools
>> >(as it is in your post),
>>
>> Well, you are half right (which is much better than usual),
>
>I'm completely right: The fact that you see even half of it is better then
>usual.
No, you are only have right, and deluded as usual.
>
>> >let's not forget that
>> >we're talking about a fool here.
>>
>> Indeed we are.
>
>> >No, we are assuming that the kicker has performed a kick and that it has
>been
>> >caught.
>>
>> A HIGH kick that got caught -not brushed asiide, or ducked, or dodged, or
>> blocked -- but CAUGHT. That is a huge mistake, an irrecoverable error.
>
>Nonsense. It's recovered from everyday.
Sure, by people sparring or people fighting idiots.
Against a serious opponent it is too huge an error.
> And, for that matter, @ what point
>did you
>decide to redefine this to a 'HIGH' kick?
A waist high kick is pretty high to me.
>
>> > How we are considering what the kicker's best options are: your 'roll
>> >over
>> >and die' stratagem, as helpful as it is, is a bit unrealistic.
>> >
>> We are, [considering what the kicker's best options are] but for the kicker
to have an option, we should note that we have
>to
>> assume that his opponent was not that sharp.
[Otherwize the kicker is on the floor on his face.]
>
>> <snip>
>> >You say the darnest things: why, for example, would you need to study self
>> >protection against people who are 'weaker' then you?
>>
>> Self defense doesnt work against people who fight better than you do. They
>> kill you anyway.
>
>Fortune cookie today? I'd get a refund. This one to one, forced correlation
>between being physically weaker and being a less able fighter is not one that
>exists in the world the rest of live in.
Weaker commonly can mean "weaker fighter" as well as physically weaker. You
were the one that asked why one would train to fight weaker opponents. Taking
your statement to mean physically weaker would make even less sense. You are
just trying to cover up the issue that your basic concept of macho fighting
doesn't make sense.
>
>>
>>
>> Self defense works against people who don't fight as well as you do. The
>> purpose of training is to put as many people in that category as possible.
>>
>> > Get into it with many girl scouts?
>> Only a few, then they were afraid of me.
>>
>> I wanted to be a boy scout anyway.
>
>I'm sure you were often mistaken for one.
>
EisMadchen
be rather gnome like.
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> >What about the hump on your back? Doctors give you any hope on that , or are
> >you
> >still ringing the bells and crying for 'sanctuary'?
> >
> No hump. I am the one with good posture, Remember?
No, you just have a stick up your ass.
> Though I do imagine you to
> be rather gnome like.
Funny, they never complained @ the modeling agency. Then again, that was a while
ago.
Mehran
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> >Another diversion.
>
> If so, it was yours. You came up with the tennis example. Giving your
> opponent huge opportunity is a failure of your technique.
Lie _and_ diversion. Nice combo.
> <snip>
> >I'm completely right: The fact that you see even half of it is better then
> >usual.
>
> No, you are only have right, and deluded as usual.
English much?
> <snip>
> <snip>
> > And, for that matter, @ what point
> >did you
> >decide to redefine this to a 'HIGH' kick?
>
> A waist high kick is pretty high to me.
That's because you've never practiced martial arts.
> <snip>
> >
> >Fortune cookie today? I'd get a refund. This one to one, forced correlation
> >between being physically weaker and being a less able fighter is not one that
> >exists in the world the rest of live in.
>
> Weaker commonly can mean "weaker fighter" as well as physically weaker. You
> were the one that asked why one would train to fight weaker opponents. Taking
> your statement to mean physically weaker would make even less sense. You are
> just trying to cover up the issue that your basic concept of macho fighting
> doesn't make sense.
Sure Eis, whatever. It's amazing how you can tie yourself into a pretzel with your
own words.
> <snip>
> >> I wanted to be a boy scout anyway.
> >
> >I'm sure you were often mistaken for one.
> >
> No, I was too tall and gawky and I had long hair.
And, apparently, feel like a penguin.
Mehran
Russell L. Rader
<19990518192140...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
> >Ray "bet you didn't see THAT nose block coming!" Wagner
>
> You should get together with Mr Habibi on that sort of technique.
> I rather like my nose the way it is.
Next to your foot?
Russ
EisMadchen
I am sure that if you put your foot anywhere your
head you would pass out, but that is just a guy problem.
You are all just envious of my high level rising foot blocks.
EisMadchen
>> >while
>> >ago.
>> >
>
>Nope: clothing, body, and motion models.
Moving gargoyles? Are you going to be in a disney animation?
>But I'll let you know if anything
EisMadchen
>
>EisMadchen wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> >> If so, it was yours. You came up with the tennis example. Giving your
>> >> opponent huge opportunity is a failure of your technique.
>> >
>> >Lie _and_ diversion. Nice combo.
>>
>> You say did not mention tennis?
>> I note that you still avoided answer my clear statement about "giving your
>> opponent opportunity"
>
>Eis, you nit: you 'give your opponent opportunity' by taking breath.
There is a slight differencing between breathing and hand someone your foot.
> That's
>not
>the fucking point. The point is, can you stop him from taking advantage of
>that
>opportunity?
You really do see everything as a cleanup of previous mistakes, don't you.
You must have one heck of a life.
>
>> <snip>
>> <snip>
>> >Sure Eis, whatever. It's amazing how you can tie yourself into a pretzel
>with
>> >your
>> >own words.
>> >
>> It is actually just your mind that gets tied up Mr Habibi when it tries to
>> follow moderately complex thoughts.
>
>Finish high school, get a couple of masters >degrees and _then_ come back and
talk
>to me about 'complex ideas'.
I did that a long, long time ago.
>
>> <Snip>
>> >Mehran
>>
>> You seem to be much closer to the build of a penguin (you are about the
>same
>> height as an emperor peguin too, arent you?) Your coloration is no doubt
>> closer too.
>
>Ah, off color racist remarks when all eis fails:
How is that a racist remark? I was imagining you wearing a typical man's
jacket, with an overly colorful ascot
Black and white tend to be men's colors. When I get dressed up I am much more
colorful. Even in a black dress, I don't look much like a penguin. The legs
are much too long.
>Must be getting desperate
>eis.
>true, I'm 5'8: but I'm hardly a penguin. difficult to be so with 6% body fat.
A misleading statistic, the immense density of your head throws off your
average density.
>AS
>for coloring: aren't the belies of bengins lilly white, life yourself?
That's why I am surprised you thought my remark was racist. Is any part of you
lilly white?
(Other than your liver, but that's inside.
On the other hand, I am white all over. Like a polar bear with a white nose.
>
Polar bears eat penguins.
>
>
>
>
afriKan
>
> EisMadchen wrote:
> >
> > The other issue is when you realize the kick is going to fail. If you realize
> > it only when your opponent is locking it you are in sorry shape. If you figure
> > it out a little sooner you can turn it into a knee strike or at least get the
> > knee bent enough so it is not going to get locked.
> ...
> > You indeed can't wait until you are locked to start trying to rescue yourself.
>
> Aha, there's the problem. The original question was "what if he already
> has your leg". There is no pre-emptive strike involved. The scenario
> was that you threw a kick and he catches..where to go from there.
>
Occams razor.
He has no defence. Grab his shirt / hair to give yourelf some leverage, and
punch his lights out with the other hand. I wonder how long he will
hold on for ?
--
afriKan
I got your spirit and passion, pendejo. I'm waving it in your
grandmother's general direction. - Watson Davis
-----------------------
Email: Swap co and za
Cobus Combrink
grabbing!
Either...
Sweep (With various combinations)
Attack using arm/legs
Whatever, the grabbing person is going to try to desturb/seize control of
the grabbed
person using the leg.
Firstly, you have both hands free, and your opponent maximum one. Use it as
an advantage!
Do a quick continues attack to his upper body neck and face (If permitted).
If your opponent is smart and keep you at a distance using your leg,
there's not much you
can do, but try to break free.
Best is to turn immediately in opposite direction (thus turning your foot
downward) and in
the same motion dive away doing a shoulder-roll. Trust me, your opponent
really need a GRIP
on your leg to keep you from doing this. And IF he does keep a grip (If he
really has a grip!) while
in the motion of diving kick backwards with your spare leg (Go for where it
hurts, or just one hell
of a stomach kick) and keep from falling by using your arms.
Just remember that if your leg is ever caught, it's a sign that you're
kicking and retracting
too slowly. Either if you're grabbed or grabbing, do to react
instinctively... When you grabbed your
opponents leg, don't hesitate a split second, lift the leg higher (To
prevent arm attacks) and sweep!
If grabbed - attack even before he notices that he's got your leg!
I think that's enough for now.
Cobus Combrink
p...@mail.utexas.edu
>
>The question is "how do you put out a fire." I think to myself, "well, I
>don't want a fire in the first place."
>
>Then you say "but what if it is already started". And I say, "well it was
>stupid to start it", and you say but you wanted to started it. And I say but
>why did you want to start it. And you say because it was a candle on your
>birthday cake. And I say -- you call that a fire??!!!
Thanks for once again publicly reaffirming your position as village
idiot of the newsgroup Stephie. Oh, I meant, self-admitted 100%
actual-fight-inexperienced village idiot. I was beginning to think
you were beginning to lapse into some plane of reality.
William MacNish
If somebody grabs your kicking leg, you're in a REALLY BAD POSITION.
Can't emphasize that enough. If they know a little bit about tossing
folks around, and they probably will, they can control your fall to slam
you into a concussion or a broken neck. Soooo, with that in mind, if
their grip is loose enough that you can drive forward into arms reach,
don't dick around with punches or palm strikes or whatever. Just go for
their eyes. That'll drop their grip real quick, or they can start
reading all their martial arts magazines with their fingers.
If their grip is tight, drop to the ground right off, take that
advantage away from them. Kick the groin, or draw your captured leg
down and drag them forward and kick'em in the jaw. Or start kicking the
wrists and fingers of that paw holding your leg.
-Joe
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> I am sure you have all the contacts.
Why, you slumming again?
Mehran
Mehran Habibi
"Bryan P.M. Chu" wrote:
> <snip>
> Eis, I've got to hand it to you... you're a riot. Of course it could be that the
> big plate of pot stickers I just ate has left me in an easily amused state of mind
> too... =^D
>
> Bryan
It's the pot stickers.
Mehran
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> >Eis, you nit: you 'give your opponent opportunity' by taking breath.
>
> There is a slight differencing between breathing and hand someone your foot.
Not, apparently, on Eis world.
>
>
> > That's
> >not
> >the fucking point. The point is, can you stop him from taking advantage of
> >that
> >opportunity?
>
> You really do see everything as a cleanup of previous mistakes, don't you.
> You must have one heck of a life.
I have an _amazing_ life.
> <snip>
> >Finish high school, get a couple of masters >degrees and _then_ come back and
> talk
> >to me about 'complex ideas'.
>
> I did that a long, long time ago.
Lemme guess: this little falsehood will be as verifiable as all the others you
tell. Hell Eis, why don't you just claim 8 Ph.Ds while you're @ it?
> <snip>>Must be getting desperate
> >eis.
> >true, I'm 5'8: but I'm hardly a penguin. difficult to be so with 6% body fat.
>
> A misleading statistic, the immense density of your head throws off your
> average density.
Well, I didn't wanna brag, but this 8 inch 'average' thing is on the skimpy side.
>
>
> >AS
> >for coloring: aren't the belies of bengins lilly white, life yourself?
>
> That's why I am surprised you thought my remark was racist. Is any part of you
> lilly white?
Eis, you're gonna havta get over this fascination with me: you're not gonna get to
check my body for tan lines, and that's that. Now stop pestering me about it.
> <snip>
>
> On the other hand, I am white all over. Like a polar bear with a white nose.
> >
> Polar bears eat penguins.
As I understand it, you'll eat everything in sight, if one doesn't keep a eye on
you.
Mehran
Ray Wagner
(snip)
> The question is "how do you put out a fire." I think to myself, "well, I
> don't want a fire in the first place."
And that's the problem with your logic. You're not answering the
question that was asked, you're answering one that is related but of
your own asking. The question remains, "how do you put out a fire."
Whether you want it or not in the first place is irrelevant. Whether
it's stupid to have the fire is irrelevant. It's there, how do you deal
with it.
Ray "try a fire extinguisher" Wagner
Robert K Shin
: > Mehran Habibi <hab...@cis.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
: >
: >Funny, they never complained @ the modeling agency. Then again, that was a
: >while
: >ago.
: >
: Were they looking for models for gargoyles?
I hate to say it, but that was funny.
Robert Shin
Chris Newton
[snip]
>If your opponent is smart and keep you at a distance using
>your leg, there's not much you can do, but try to break free.
I would have said most smart opponents will be trying to get close to you,
either so as to use the grabbed leg to best advantage in a grappling move or
to get in range to strike. What were you going to do with my leg from far
away, swing me around by it and hope I fall over?
>Best is to turn immediately in opposite direction (thus turning
>your foot downward) and in the same motion dive away doing
>a shoulder-roll. Trust me, your opponent really need a GRIP on
>your leg to keep you from doing this.
I've been taught this as a counter when someone catches a round kick. I
have yet to meet the person I truly couldn't stop from rolling out of it if
I wanted to, including several people who are damn good kickers and more
than one instructor. I train it because my style's syllabus requires that I
know it, but I don't for an instant believe it would work reliably. Sorry,
but I won't trust you on this one, I'll trust my own experience. No
offence.
>And IF he does keep a grip (If he really has a grip!) while in
>the motion of diving kick backwards with your spare leg (Go
>for where it hurts, or just one hell of a stomach kick) and keep
>from falling by using your arms.
You won't get much of a kick when you're kicking backwards but rolling
forwards!
>Just remember that if your leg is ever caught, it's a sign that you're
>kicking and retracting too slowly.
For goodness' sake, would people please give up with this "your kick must
have been naff" thing? If you've been caught, it is a sign that your
opponent was either more skilful or luckier than you. It's relative, not
absolute. If someone with 15 years' kickboxing experience gets caught by
someone with 25 years' grappling experience, does it mean the kickboxer was
rubbish, or just that at that particular time the grappler was better?
Regards,
Chris
--
Please reply to the newsgroup on which this text is posted.
If a private reply is appropriate, remove "spamfree." from my address.
Bryan P.M. Chu
Yeah, pot stickers tend to do that.... It's just hard to get annoyed
when full of chinese food. Actually, it's hard to do much of anything
except maybe sit and giggle.
Bryan
Mehran Habibi
"Bryan P.M. Chu" wrote:
> <snip>
> > It's the pot stickers.
> >
> > Mehran
>
> Yeah, pot stickers tend to do that.... It's just hard to get annoyed
> when full of chinese food. Actually, it's hard to do much of anything
> except maybe sit and giggle.
>
> Bryan
Sa-ay...was there a _reason_ you suddenly got the muchies for Pot Stickers? hmmm?
M
EisMadchen
>EisMadchen wrote:
>(snip)
>> The question is "how do you put out a fire." I think to myself, "well, I
>> don't want a fire in the first place."
>
>And that's the problem with your logic. You're not answering the
>question that was asked, you're answering one that is related but of
>your own asking.
Of course it is, its a better question.
> The question remains, "how do you put out a fire."
>Whether you want it or not in the first place is irrelevant. Whether
>it's stupid to have the fire is irrelevant. It's there, how do you deal
>with it.
God, you guys have little minds.
Mehran Habibi
EisMadchen wrote:
> <snip>
> God, you guys have little minds.
Well, it's either the inserted object or the container. Me, I'm guessing you have
a lot of empty head space.
Mehran
Jarle Thorsen
>If you ask her how to put a fire out, you'll get the response that you
>shouldn't let a fire start in the first place. You then say, yes,
>granted, but how would you put the fire out if it started? Then you get a
>response like, if it doesn't involve gasoline it's not a real fire anyway.
> Then it proceeds in a tedious circle from there.
LOL! This was a great way of describing it Frank, it was just so to the
point that I couldn't resist smiling a bit :)
--
Jarle Thorsen
Instructor in Tenshin Dojo, Genbukan Ninpo
http://www.emsoy.com/ninpo/
Ray Wagner
>
> >Ray Wagner
> >
> >And that's the problem with your logic. You're not answering the
> >question that was asked, you're answering one that is related but of
> >your own asking.
>
> Of course it is, its a better question.
But it's NOT the one that was asked!! When (if) you were in school and
had a test, did you answer your own questions which you thought were
"better" than the ones asked?
Teacher: What is 2+2?
Eis: 2+3=5
Teacher: That's not what I asked.
Eis: It's a better question.
Doesn't make a lot of sense. Just for the fun of it, try answering the
question *as asked* once or twice. It's an interesting exercise,
really. This isn't Kobyoshi-Moru (sp?), there can be a good answer to
the question asked. You don't have to change the question around until
your answer fits.
> God, you guys have little minds.
How do you figure? We take the situation *as stated* and go somewhere
with it. Do you have a "bigger" mind because you can ignore the parts
you don't like? If answering the question *as asked* is the wrong thing
to do then yes, I have a little mind.
Ray "if I had half a mind to really chase this argument we might be on
equal footing" Wagner
Shudawwg
(EisMadchen) writes:
>>Mehran Habibi <hab...@cis.ohio-state.edu>
>
>>
>>EisMadchen wrote:
>>
>>> <snip>
>>> >> If so, it was yours. You came up with the tennis example. Giving your
>>> >> opponent huge opportunity is a failure of your technique.
>>> >
>>> >Lie _and_ diversion. Nice combo.
>>>
>>> You say did not mention tennis?
>>> I note that you still avoided answer my clear statement about "giving your
>>> opponent opportunity"
>>
>>Eis, you nit: you 'give your opponent opportunity' by taking breath.
>
>There is a slight differencing between breathing and hand someone your foot.
>
>> That's
>>not
>>the fucking point. The point is, can you stop him from taking advantage of
>>that
>>opportunity?
>
>You really do see everything as a cleanup of previous mistakes, don't you.
>You must have one heck of a life.
>>
>>> <snip>
>>> <snip>
>>> >Sure Eis, whatever. It's amazing how you can tie yourself into a pretzel
>>with
>>> >your
>>> >own words.
>>> >
>>> It is actually just your mind that gets tied up Mr Habibi when it tries to
>>> follow moderately complex thoughts.
>>
>>Finish high school, get a couple of masters >degrees and _then_ come back
>and
>talk
>>to me about 'complex ideas'.
>
>I did that a long, long time ago.
>>
>>> <Snip>
>>> >Mehran
>>>
>>> You seem to be much closer to the build of a penguin (you are about the
>>same
>>> height as an emperor peguin too, arent you?) Your coloration is no doubt
>>> closer too.
>>
>>Ah, off color racist remarks when all eis fails:
>
>How is that a racist remark? I was imagining you wearing a typical man's
>jacket, with an overly colorful ascot
>
>Black and white tend to be men's colors. When I get dressed up I am much
>more
>colorful. Even in a black dress, I don't look much like a penguin. The legs
>are much too long.
>
>>Must be getting desperate
>>eis.
>>true, I'm 5'8: but I'm hardly a penguin. difficult to be so with 6% body
>fat.
>
>A misleading statistic, the immense density of your head throws off your
>average density.
>
>>AS
>>for coloring: aren't the belies of bengins lilly white, life yourself?
>
>That's why I am surprised you thought my remark was racist. Is any part of
>you
>lilly white?
>(Other than your liver, but that's inside.
>
>On the other hand, I am white all over. Like a polar bear with a white nose.
>>
>Polar bears eat penguins.
Are you SURE you two weren't married in a past life :o) ? This is almost as
good as "All in the Family"...Archie (Mehran) says "Aaawww Edith(Eis)...you
dimwit.." Hey...we got our own sit-com goin' here :o)
Steve
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.
EisMadchen
>EisMadchen wrote:
>>
>> >Ray Wagner
>> >
>> >And that's the problem with your logic. You're not answering the
>> >question that was asked, you're answering one that is related but of
>> >your own asking.
>>
>> Of course it is, its a better question.
>
>But it's NOT the one that was asked!!
As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
>When (if) you were in school and
>had a test, did you answer your own questions which you thought were
>"better" than the ones asked?
Yep. Now that you mention it I did write quite a few essays on why the test
question was foolish or wrong. Some teachers have narrow minds too. On the
other hand, the good ones dont.
>
>Teacher: What is 2+2?
>
>Eis: 2+3=5
4, base 10; 10 base 4, 11 base 3,
the way the ants march in,
an unimaginative question,
>
>Teacher: That's not what I asked.
>
>Eis: It's a better question.
>
>Doesn't make a lot of sense. Just for the fun of it, try answering the
>question *as asked* once or twice. It's an interesting exercise,
>really.
Usually not.
>This isn't Kobyoshi-Moru (sp?), there can be a good answer to
>the question asked. You don't have to change the question around until
>your answer fits.
In fact it is a Kobiyashi-maru question. Basically, if you give a compentent
martial artist the opportunity to catch your kick, it is time to start the
self-destruct sequence. -- I gotta a handgrenade in my pocket, man. Letme go
or I am going to blow us up.
>
>> God, you guys have little minds.
>
>How do you figure? We take the situation
> *as stated* and go somewhere with it.
You don't go far with it, and since the question was poorly defined you don't
even know where you are when you get there.
The question that I brought up was HOW the leg was caught. That completely
deterimines your response.
>Do you
have a "bigger" mind because you can ignore the parts
>you don't like? If answering the question *as asked* is the wrong thing
>to do then yes, I have a little mind.
It is, you do.
>
Ray Wagner
>
> >But it's NOT the one that was asked!!
>
> As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
Then why reply to the question that was asked? If you're going to make
up your own question AND answer it then why not start your own thread?
That way we can concentrate on answering someone's question, you can
concentrate on whatever it is that occupies your time, and everybody is
happy.
> >Doesn't make a lot of sense. Just for the fun of it, try answering the
> >question *as asked* once or twice. It's an interesting exercise,
> >really.
>
> Usually not.
How would you know?
> In fact it is a Kobiyashi-maru question. Basically, if you give a compentent
> martial artist the opportunity to catch your kick, it is time to start the
> self-destruct sequence.
So all I have to do to beat you is get hold of one foot? Wow, I thought
you said you were good.
> >If answering the question *as asked* is the wrong thing
> >to do then yes, I have a little mind.
>
> It is, you do.
Well, I guess that settles it.
Ray "Eis 3:16" Wagner
Russell L. Rader
>
> As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
I can see it now. You get attacked on the street. You don't like the
attack that the attacker used, so you defend against a different
attack!
Russ
EisMadchen
>EisMadchen wrote:
>>
>> >But it's NOT the one that was asked!!
>>
>> As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
>
>Then why reply to the question that was asked?
Because I am replying to the question that should have been asked. Often, the
asker fails to understand the situation enough to even ask a good question. It
is pretty clear what he is trying to ask, but he doesn't know how. The right
thing to do is help him out with the question too.
In this case, the guy was obviously concerned with what to do when his foot got
caught. So he asked "how do I get out?". The point was that he needed to ask
"how do I not get caught".
> If you're going to make
>up your own question AND answer it then why not start your own thread?
I do that too.
>That way we can concentrate on answering someone's question, you can
>concentrate on whatever it is that occupies your time, and everybody is
>happy.
It probably not fair to the questioner. Answering people's questions rather
than their intended questions can be very misleading. You allow their basic
misconception to go undetected and uncorrected.
I am sorry you are not happy now.
>
>> >Doesn't make a lot of sense. Just for the fun of it, try answering the
>> >question *as asked* once or twice. It's an interesting exercise,
>> >really.
>>
>> Usually not.
>
>How would you know?
I always at least consider answering the question as it,
>
>> In fact it is a Kobiyashi-maru question. Basically, if you give a
>compentent
>> martial artist the opportunity to catch your kick, it is time to start the
>> self-destruct sequence.
>
>So all I have to do to beat you is get hold of one foot? Wow, I thought
>you said you were good.
I don't know who you train with, but its all over with the people I train with.
If someone can catch your foot, you have screwed up ma ai (distancing) so
badly that there is little escape. Whether the foot is actually caught is
incidental. In fact, most good martial artists would not even bother with the
foot. They would just immediately destroy the rest of you.
>
>> >If answering the question *as asked* is the wrong thing
>> >to do then yes, I have a little mind.
>>
>> It is, you do.
>
>Well, I guess that settles it.
Clearly.
EisMadchen
>Date: 5/20/99 9:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <37441439...@ford.com>
>
>EisMadchen wrote:
>>
>> As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
>
>attack that the attacker used, so you defend against a different
>attack!
>
conditions of the attack.
It is one of the fundamental points of martial theory to choose your battles
and your battlegrounds carefully. This is why surprise attacks are so deadly.
Your opponent is able to dictate the exact nature of the battle.
If someone attacks me the first thing I am going to do is change my own
position to alter the nature of his attack.
Ray Wagner
>
> EisMadchen wrote:
> >
> > As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
>
> I can see it now. You get attacked on the street. You don't like the
> attack that the attacker used, so you defend against a different
> attack!
Of course she'd first explain why he was doing the wrong thing and tell
him her qualifications. Then he'd either run away screaming or go into
a fit of hysterical laughter. Overall, a pretty good defense.
Ray "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with
bullshit" Wagner
Greg McNairney
> > "Russell L. Rader" <rra...@ford.com>
> >Date: 5/20/99 9:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <37441439...@ford.com>
> >
> >EisMadchen wrote:
> >>
> >> As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
> >
> >I can see it now. You get attacked on the street. You don't like the
> >attack that the attacker used, so you defend against a different
> >attack!
> >
> Absolutely. You are in big trouble if you let the attacker dictate the
> conditions of the attack.
>
> It is one of the fundamental points of martial theory to choose your battles
> and your battlegrounds carefully. This is why surprise attacks are so deadly.
> Your opponent is able to dictate the exact nature of the battle.
>
> If someone attacks me the first thing I am going to do is change my own
> position to alter the nature of his attack.
Touché! ;)
Russell L. Rader
> >>
> >> As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
> >
> >I can see it now. You get attacked on the street. You don't like the
> >attack that the attacker used, so you defend against a different
> >attack!
>
> Absolutely. You are in big trouble if you let the attacker dictate the
> conditions of the attack.
>
> It is one of the fundamental points of martial theory to choose your battles
> and your battlegrounds carefully. This is why surprise attacks are so deadly.
> Your opponent is able to dictate the exact nature of the battle.
>
> If someone attacks me the first thing I am going to do is change my own
> position to alter the nature of his attack.
*shaking head* But what I was positing was a surprise attack; I should
have stated that explicitly. But of course, you'll avoid that question
too, by stating that you use awareness of your surroundings so that you
will never be surprised. My point is that if you consider an attack as
a question, that you have to answer, you can't always choose what
question someone will ask you. Sometimes you really do have to deal
with the question at hand. Except, apparently, on Eis-World.
"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is
no difference."
Get it?
Russ
Russell L. Rader
> EisMadchen wrote:
> > > "Russell L. Rader" <rra...@ford.com>
> > >
> > >EisMadchen wrote:
> > >>
> > >> As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
> > >
> > >I can see it now. You get attacked on the street. You don't like the
> > >attack that the attacker used, so you defend against a different
> > >attack!
> >
> > Absolutely. You are in big trouble if you let the attacker dictate the
> > conditions of the attack.
> >
> > It is one of the fundamental points of martial theory to choose your battles
> > and your battlegrounds carefully. This is why surprise attacks are so deadly.
> > Your opponent is able to dictate the exact nature of the battle.
> >
> > If someone attacks me the first thing I am going to do is change my own
> > position to alter the nature of his attack.
>
Touché???? What the @#$% are you talking about, Greg? You aikido
people stick together, huh? ;-) She avoided answering the question,
yet again. She did with the proper use of buzzwords and martial
"theory", but she avoided the question. Just like she always does. If
someone punches at you, you defend against a punch, not a kick. Even if
you think that a kick would have been a better attack from the
attacker's POV. Otherwise, you get punched in the face. In a fight,
you have to answer the questions that are asked. Not the questions that
you want your opponent to ask. That would be too easy. Sheesh.
Russ
Bryan P.M. Chu
>
(snip)
>
> Are you SURE you two weren't married in a past life :o) ? This is almost as
> good as "All in the Family"...Archie (Mehran) says "Aaawww Edith(Eis)...you
> dimwit.." Hey...we got our own sit-com goin' here :o)
>
You know, I was thinking the same thing. =-D It's kind of sweet that
they've found each other again in this life... isn't "true love"(tm)
grand? A match made in one of those places that start with an "h."
Like Hoboken.
=-)
Bryan
"I don't think I'll get married again. I'll just find a woman I don't
like and give her a house."
- Lewis Grizzard
Bryan P.M. Chu
Well, if you must know... friend's b-day--> dinner--> gin --> liquor
munchies --> pot stickers. One of my favorite bars is right across the
street from this all night chinese food place. Trust me, chow mein (hk
pan fried style) and pot stickers kick the hell out of even onion rings
and chilli fries. And I doooo looovve my chilli fries.... I'm gonna
remember that if I ever open a bar.
Bryan
"I never met a drink I didn't like, unfortunately the reverse is not so
true"
J Thomas Howard
>>realize
>>> it only when your opponent is locking it you are in sorry shape. If you
>>figure
>>> it out a little sooner you can turn it into a knee strike or at least get
>>the
>>> knee bent enough so it is not going to get locked.
>>...
>>> You indeed can't wait until you are locked to start trying to rescue
>>yourself.
>>
>>Aha, there's the problem. The original question was "what if he already
>>has your leg".
> Give me a break. You already have me doing a stupid kick badly, and now I cant
> start escaping until I am locked. Why not make me wait until my leg is broken
> or my face planted and then ask what I would do?
How odd, no one said "locked" --- they said your leg was caught. One
assumes that you have some idea of what the difference is?
>>There is no pre-emptive strike involved. The scenario
>>was that you threw a kick and he catches..where to go from there.
> There is catching and there is catching. If I "catch" a leg, my opponent will
> be falling backward and recovering from a hard face or throat punch before the
> "catch" is complete. Against that sort of catch you try to cover a bit and get
> ready to do a nasty breakfall.
Oh! We forgot, you are so amazing that if you even get a hand on someone,
it is over.
Sheesh. If you "catch" a leg, that simply means that.
> If the catcher is less sophistocated you start bending the knee and trying to
> maintain some separation as soon as you realize the technique will fail.
> (Which probably should have been before you threw it).
...which is a good example of you not knowing anything about reality.
When your leg gets caught, "maintaining separation" is a good way to get
thrown, or your leg serious damaged. You need to close the distance.
>>> With most of the guys I practice with it would be stepping up into their
>>arms.
>>That would put your non-trapped knee awfully close to their face, no?
> Unfortunately his other hand is between the two and close to my face. I think
> this might be the time to smile and say "hi there, big boy" instead of trying
> to hit him.
Which, since you originally were kicking this person, means that you are
going to get flattened next, and your reaction was about as stupid as was
possible.
Again---actually try this sometime. If you don't close, you _will_ get
hurt 99% of the time. If you _do_ close, you might get hurt, but you have
much more of a chance to be effective.
> I rather like my nose the way it is.
Wow. What a useful addition to the post.
But then again, it _is_ as useful as your other pronouncements.
Thomas
------------------------------------
tho...@binary.net
http://www.binary.net/thomcat/
"If you aren't modeling what you are teaching
then you are teaching something else."
FB
> EisMadchen wrote:
> >
> > As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
>
> I can see it now. You get attacked on the street. You don't like the
> attack that the attacker used, so you defend against a different
> attack!
>
> Russ
Now that is funny.
Mehran Habibi
Hey!
M
Mehran Habibi
> You know, I was thinking the same thing.
HEY HEY HEY!!!!!!!
M
Ray Wagner
> My point is that if you consider an attack as
> a question, that you have to answer, you can't always choose what
> question someone will ask you. Sometimes you really do have to deal
> with the question at hand. Except, apparently, on Eis-World.
Well said, Russ. If a kick comes, defend against the kick, not a
triangle choke.
> "The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is
> no difference."
I like it!
I've grown very weary of struggling to bring a little reality to
EisWorld (tm). I'll be right behind you cheering you on should you
choose to continue the crusade. Good luck.
Ray "DNF" Wagner
Greg McNairney
> Greg McNairney wrote:
> > > If someone attacks me the first thing I am going to do is change my own
> > > position to alter the nature of his attack.
> >
> > Touché! ;)
>
> Touché???? What the @#$% are you talking about, Greg? You aikido
> people stick together, huh? ;-) <snip the scald :)>
> Russ
I know, Russ, I was just yankin' yer chain :). Hope your studies are going well.
I can see that changing the conditions of the attack by means of avoidance and
surprise responses are desirable. I agree that it's unrealistic, though, to not
prepare for the likelihood of, say, a kick being caught. I mean, what if they simply
close the gap and jam the kick, catching it by the thigh with the aim of tossing you?
Pretty reasonable possibility, I'd say, especially if you're not as good a kicker as
you may think you are; and who thinks their kicks are invincible?
Maybe the key to Eis's approach to this "battle" lies in her statement:
> It is one of the fundamental points of martial theory to choose your battles
> and your battlegrounds carefully. This is why surprise attacks are so deadly.
> Your opponent is able to dictate the exact nature of the battle.
Can anyone surprise her? ;)
coldblood
FB wrote in message <374456BB...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>...
even if there is only one...
andrew
FB
> >Here's another one.
> >
> >Sit down (you heard me right) to the open guard. Grab his ankle on that side
> >(right side) with your right hand. Put your left foot in his groin, push
> >with your
> >left foot as you pull your right foot out of his grasp. Put your right foot
> >on his
> >hip. Left foot hooks inside and behind his right knee. Right hand and left
> >foot
> >trap as right foot pushes, and over he goes onto his back. If you have a
> >hold on
> >his left wrist with your left hand (not hard to do) then he brings you over
> >right
> >on top of him. Otherwise, keep the hold on his ankle and pass around that
> >side to
> >side control.
> >
> >Very reliable, and works very well against all kinds, even wrestlers.
> >
> >
>
> What happened to "not ideally suited for self-defense"?
>
> Trav
Not sure what you mean.
EisMadchen
>EisMadchen <eisma...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Ray Wagner <rwa...@primary.net>
>>>EisMadchen wrote:
>>>> The other issue is when you realize the kick is going to fail. If you
>>>realize
>>>> it only when your opponent is locking it you are in sorry shape. If you
>>>figure
>>>> it out a little sooner you can turn it into a knee strike or at least get
>>>the
>>>> knee bent enough so it is not going to get locked.
>>>...
>>>> You indeed can't wait until you are locked to start trying to rescue
>>>yourself.
>>>
>>>Aha, there's the problem. The original question was "what if he already
>>>has your leg".
>> Give me a break. You already have me doing a stupid kick badly, and now I
>cant
>> start escaping until I am locked. Why not make me wait until my leg is
>broken
>> or my face planted and then ask what I would do?
>
>How odd, no one said "locked" --- they said your leg was caught. One
>assumes that you have some idea of what the difference is?
He didn't say unlocked either. Who knows the details involved in "catching".
I said locked. The other poster answered in the exchange below:
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
>>>> You indeed can't wait until you are locked to start trying to rescue
>>>yourself.
>>>
>>>Aha, there's the problem. The original question was "what if he already
>>>has your leg".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Implying -- you idiot, he said it was locked!
I think you can see how it can be read as an affirmation that he has your leg
locked. ... Or that it is not.
>
>>>There is no pre-emptive strike involved. The scenario
>>>was that you threw a kick and he catches..where to go from there.
>> There is catching and there is catching. If I "catch" a leg, my opponent
>will
>> be falling backward and recovering from a hard face or throat punch before
>the
>> "catch" is complete. Against that sort of catch you try to cover a bit and
>get
>> ready to do a nasty breakfall.
>
>Oh! We forgot, you are so amazing that if you even get a hand on someone,
>it is over.
If the catcher focusses more on taking your balance that "catching" the leg you
are in very serious trouble. That is simple.
>
>Sheesh. If you "catch" a leg, that simply means that.
As I said, I can "catch" a leg in thirty or forty different ways with a broad
spectrum of possible outcomes.
>
>> If the catcher is less sophistocated you start bending the knee and trying
>to
>> maintain some separation as soon as you realize the technique will fail.
>> (Which probably should have been before you threw it).
>
>...which is a good example of you not knowing anything about reality.
>When your leg gets caught, "maintaining separation" is a good way to get
>thrown, or your leg serious damaged.
Either of which is far better than having your opponent close on you while
controlling your leg and balance. You are setting yourself up for nasty
strikes and a lethal backwards throw.
> You need to close the distance.
>
You want to close distance while you have a foot up in the air and are in a
precarious position??? A general rule of fighting is that when you are winning
you want to solidify the position and when you are losing you want loosen the
position.
Having your foot caught is not exactly winning and closing is not loosening.
>>>> With most of the guys I practice with it would be stepping up into their
>>>arms.
>>>That would put your non-trapped knee awfully close to their face, no?
>> Unfortunately his other hand is between the two and close to my face. I
>think
>> this might be the time to smile and say "hi there, big boy" instead of
>trying
>> to hit him.
>
>Which, since you originally were kicking this person, means that you are
>going to get flattened next, and your reaction was about as stupid as was
>possible.
Rule #21 of martial arts, when the situation is hopeless, try something
radically different.
>
>Again---actually try this sometime. If you don't close, you _will_ get
>hurt 99% of the time. If you _do_ close, you might get hurt, but you have
>much more of a chance to be effective.
Actually that was much what I said in my original response -- close and hit him
in the face. I based this on the idea that if he was still holding your foot,
he did not have enough sense to close on you, so the catcher was obviously
somewhat inept and you might get lucky.
Against someone who is actively closing on you you should be trying to escape
any way you can.
>
>> I rather like my nose the way it is.
>
>Wow. What a useful addition to the post.
I think it appropriate that we establish the goals we are trying to achieve.
Keeping my beautiful profile is one of mine.
Chris Newton
>If someone attacks me the first thing I am going to do is
>change my own position to alter the nature of his attack.
Nah. If someone attacks you, the first thing you are going to do is get
hit, probably while attempting some absurd low-percentage manoeuvre in
defence and forgetting that here on Earth we need stuff that works reliably,
even against competent opposition. Then, while you are working out how you
got surprised, and pondering how not to get surprised in future in the
knowledge that it would have been better not to be surprised than to be
where you are now, you will get taken apart. However, you will have
resigned yourself to this after being surprised by the first punch since,
having been successfully hit once, you are clearly already dead even if your
opponent is totally unskilled, and therefore attempting to counter the
situation as it stands is completely pointless and you should just lay down
and die. At least you will die with healthy karma, knowing that what has
happened was the way it was meant to be and the only possible outcome.
Have a nice day :-)
Chris
--
Please reply to the newsgroup on which this text is posted.
If a private reply is appropriate, remove "spamfree." from my address.
EisMadchen
Not that there is ever a shortage on rma.
If you guys think a little bit you will see what I am saying. There are few
times in life that you want to let life dictate things to you. It is much
better to be an active participant.
In fighting, you never want to let your opponent dictate to you. Much of
fighting is denying this to your opponent and dictating to him/her.
If you really think you can respond to unanticipated attacks on any sort of
reliable basis I suggest that you reassess your view of martial arts. 90% of
martial arts is anticipation and protecting yourself before the situation is
critical.
This is not necessarily true of sports where rules and convention limit the
extent and nature of attacks and counter attacks. In boxing, for example, one
boxer has to be quite a bit better than the other to dominate him. Attacks are
limited, at the very least by stopping the fight in knockdowns. In real
fighting, there may be almost no limits and a small advantage can be pressed
for a quick and decisive end to the fight.
TravIsGod
>I understand and agree with what you're saying, Travis, but that end part was
>really for the people who aren't facing a wrestler, don't want to learn any
>wrestling, and just want to remain standing and not get dumped. Most people
>(non-wrestlers) who have your leg and are holding it to the side won't know
>what to
>do with it anyway, in a wrestling context.
Like I said, you can get away w/ stuff against people who don't know what to do
with the leg.
>Therefore, you are close enough to do a sprawling
>whizzer as you circle away, especially since he is inside your leg and not
>out.
I also realize that you're probably also taller than most people you work out
with...taller guys can usually step down through the single leg much more
easily than can shorter guys.
>Again, you misunderstand. I'm not talking about a wrestler grabbing your leg
>in
>this case. I'm talking about a person who does not converge on you.
K...fair enough. Why not just punch them in the face?
>Also, Trav, I didn't hear your reaction to the sumi gaeshi counter.
You'll have to restate...it's been awhile since I've been on and there's now
89 messages on this thread. Sorry.
>I've only made it work about 500 times before . . . so I guess I could be
>wrong.
see above re: guys who don't know what to do w/ legs.
Trav
TravIsGod
Russell L. Rader
> >"Russell L. Rader"
> >
> >> >Ray "bet you didn't see THAT nose block coming!" Wagner
> >>
> >> You should get together with Mr Habibi on that sort of technique.
> >> I rather like my nose the way it is.
> >
>
> I am sure that if you put your foot anywhere your
> head you would pass out, but that is just a guy problem.
Are you referring to the smell? Hey, it's a very potent weapon; the
Odor-Eaters would disable one of my strongest "offensive" techniques.
;-)
> You are all just envious of my high level rising foot blocks.
Not really.
Russ
coldblood
EisMadchen wrote in message
<19990520230222...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
>>"coldblood" <dool...@hotmail.com>
>>
>>FB wrote in message <374456BB...@NOSPAMhotmail.com>...
>>>Russell L. Rader wrote:
>>>
>>>> EisMadchen wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > As if I care. I would rather address the better question.
>>>>
>>>> I can see it now. You get attacked on the street. You don't like the
>>>> attack that the attacker used, so you defend against a different
>>>> attack!
>>>>
>>>> Russ
>>>
>>>
>>>Now that is funny.
>>>
>>sometimes she even defends against a different attacker.....
>>even if there is only one...
>>
>>andrew
>
>Not that there is ever a shortage on rma.
>
>If you guys think a little bit you will see what I am saying. There are
few
>times in life that you want to let life dictate things to you. It is much
>better to be an active participant.
i actually agree with this, however it has absolutely no bearing on the
discussion at hand. that question asked was what to do _if_ your kick was
caught. that this is a bad thing best prevented was not the issue, how to
prevent it or why it will never happen to you was NOT the issue. the
question was what to do if. thats it. since you seem convinced it cant ever
happen to you and should never happen to anyone else, and anyone it does
happen to is poor ma'ist who has screwed up, what the hell are you going to
contribute to this thread that answers the question asked? if you learn to
answer the question that was asked, or start a thread asking the question
you thought should have been asked you might get more respect around here.
till then you will be looked upon as an argumentative troll who refuses to
accept reality.
andrew"bettin eis still wont answer the original question" holt
EisMadchen
>>If you guys think a little bit you will see what I am saying. There are
>few
>>times in life that you want to let life dictate things to you. It is much
>>better to be an active participant.
>snip
>
>
>i actually agree with this, however it has absolutely no bearing on the
>discussion at hand. that question asked was what to do _if_ your kick was
>caught.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and the REASON he was asking the question was he was getting
clobber when people caught his foot.
Since I believe the situation is nearly hopeless once you have screwed up that
badly, why would I talk about escapes that can at best work poorly. The
solution to the problem is not to let the guy catch your foot.
You may or may not agree with my assesment of caught kicks, but you should not
have any trouble with why I had to change the question to give an answer that
makes sense.
> that this is a bad thing best prevented was not the issue, how to
>prevent it or why it will never happen to you was NOT the issue. the
>question was what to do if. thats it. since you seem convinced it cant ever
>happen to you and should never happen to anyone else, and anyone it does
>happen to is poor ma'ist who has screwed up, what the hell are you going to
>contribute to this thread that answers the question asked?
Obviously I was trying to convince you misinformed heathens that you needed to
expand the scope of your question and answer to find the truth.
> if you learn to
>answer the question that was asked, or start a thread asking the question
>you thought should have been asked you might get more respect around here.
Boy, what I would give to gain your respect!
>till then you will be looked upon as an argumentative troll who refuses to
>accept reality.
>
Better than being a fool drone.
>
>andrew"bettin eis still wont answer the original question" holt
>
Which one, the one about how to deal with your foot being caught? I did answer
it -- with the preface that you were stupid to kick so that it could be caught
and you were fortunate that your opponent did not do something much worse.
I suggested that since you were still standing you opponent wasn't too with it,
so you might as well go in and punch him and force him backward.
J Thomas Howard
> EisMadchen wrote...
>>If someone attacks me the first thing I am going to do is
>>change my own position to alter the nature of his attack.
> Nah. If someone attacks you, the first thing you are going to do is get
> hit, probably while attempting some absurd low-percentage manoeuvre in
> defence and forgetting that here on Earth we need stuff that works reliably,
> even against competent opposition. Then, while you are working out how you
> got surprised, and pondering how not to get surprised in future in the
> knowledge that it would have been better not to be surprised than to be
> where you are now, you will get taken apart. However, you will have
> resigned yourself to this after being surprised by the first punch since,
> having been successfully hit once, you are clearly already dead even if your
> opponent is totally unskilled, and therefore attempting to counter the
> situation as it stands is completely pointless and you should just lay down
> and die. At least you will die with healthy karma, knowing that what has
> happened was the way it was meant to be and the only possible outcome.
> Have a nice day :-)
Wow. Impressive.
Very nicely stated.
(However, I _will_ say here that according to Eis, she wouldn't have been
in that situation anyway, since she is too good to actually, mishandle a
situation enough to ever be in a fight. That will also be true according
to Mehran, but he will say the reason is that she never leaves her house.
:)
J Thomas Howard
>> "coldblood" <dool...@hotmail.com>>
>>EisMadchen wrote in message
>>few
>>>times in life that you want to let life dictate things to you. It is much
>>>better to be an active participant.
>>snip
>>i actually agree with this, however it has absolutely no bearing on the
>>discussion at hand. that question asked was what to do _if_ your kick was
>>caught.
> Yeah, yeah, yeah. and the REASON he was asking the question was he was getting
> clobber when people caught his foot.
And so, his question makes sense, as he is trying to close a gap in his
self-defense knowledge. Don't worry, Eis, that is something you don't
know about, so we aren't actually expecting you to have any idea about it.
> Since I believe the situation is nearly hopeless once you have screwed up that
> badly, why would I talk about escapes that can at best work poorly. The
> solution to the problem is not to let the guy catch your foot.
Congratulations, winner of the Stupid Comment of the Day. Among other
things, a general class of reactions with an opponent having your foot/leg
is something smart to learn, since there are a number of situations in
which this may happen.
The situation is not at all hopeless, but that is because I know what to
do there. I suppose for you, since you are clueless about it, it is
indeed nearly hopeless. (Kinda similar to the ground, right? Since you
think "ground is death?")
> You may or may not agree with my assesment of caught kicks, but you should not
> have any trouble with why I had to change the question to give an answer that
> makes sense.
No, we do indeed have a problem with that. Not only is your assessment of
caught kicks incorrect, you certainly did not _have_ to change the
question, as many technical answers to his question do make sense.
Similarly, your answer was both obvious, and unnecessary.
In other words, not only do you look like an unhelpful idiot (which is
normal) the time you took to compose your blathering was wasted since it
was obvious.
>> that this is a bad thing best prevented was not the issue, how to
>>prevent it or why it will never happen to you was NOT the issue. the
>>question was what to do if. thats it. since you seem convinced it cant ever
>>happen to you and should never happen to anyone else, and anyone it does
>>happen to is poor ma'ist who has screwed up, what the hell are you going to
>>contribute to this thread that answers the question asked?
> Obviously I was trying to convince you misinformed heathens that you needed to
> expand the scope of your question and answer to find the truth.
Obviously you were trying to blather as normal, without actually having
anything to do with the topic at hand.
>> if you learn to
>>answer the question that was asked, or start a thread asking the question
>>you thought should have been asked you might get more respect around here.
> Boy, what I would give to gain your respect!
Hmm. Don't hold your breath.
>>till then you will be looked upon as an argumentative troll who refuses to
>>accept reality.
>>
> Better than being a fool drone.
Something you know about, I'm sure.