BJJ McDojo training
red power ranger
mentioning its existence and my possession of it in my other post, let
me say that someday, when America's shopping malls are dotted with
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu McDojos, let it be said that Robert Morales got
there first.
Charles McKey
redpowe...@japan.com says...
> when America's shopping malls are dotted with
> Brazilian Jiu-jitsu McDojos,
>
the "Eeeew!" factor in wrestling with ones fellow humans among a
McDojo's target audience would be a limiting factor?
Kirk Lawson
There are big names in BJJ complaining about how grappling is getting wattered
down. Gene Simco complains about it in his well respected book, "The Masters
Text." Heck, good ol' Helio Gracie himself, DA MAN, took out a *FULL PAGE AD*
in BB Mag. to complain about "fake" grappling/bjj schools springing up.
Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
Charles McKey
says...
>
> There are big names in BJJ complaining about how grappling is getting wattered
> down.
>
(I foget which, I'm afraid) in BJJ commenting on some "walk ins" who
promptly walked out again after seeing a class. At the time, the
consensus was that it was fairly common for this to happen.
Philippe
news:MPG.1a1c72714...@news.umist.ac.uk...
JKD/BJJ school in Vancouver (Richmond), having the class run one after
another... The classes were fine as they were, but the absolute contempt
shown by the BJJ students at the JKD (they happened to take both) was laid
out was thick... they approached the class as a joke, showing no effort or
even interest in the techniques shown...
Turned me off that school in particular, anyway... Could have been *any*
two arts and the situation might still have existed, mind you..
P.
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> when America's shopping malls are dotted with
>> Brazilian Jiu-jitsu McDojos,
>>
>Do people seriously think this is a possibility? I'd have thought that
>the "Eeeew!" factor in wrestling with ones fellow humans among a
>McDojo's target audience would be a limiting factor?
It's mostly noise from the 'sour milk' camp. Boxing has not turned into
a McDojo art, Judo has not turned into a McDojo art, Kickboxing/MT have
not turned into McDojo arts, Sambo, MMA, etc. etc.
The key difference has to do with WHY people train in the arts and the
strong focus on randori and sport. Some people are down on sport (search
sport vs. street) but the truth is a strong sport base keeps the art
honest.
I could open a boxing gym tomorrow and I'd get students. I could even
tell them that I'll teach them secert boxing techniques/kata no one else
knows, and some would believe it. But if my students get killed in the
ring... Well I could say, we are the best boxers alive but we don't
spar/fight because our skill is to great. But NO ONE would buy that.
That's the whole point of boxing, to step into the ring.
Same with judo or BJJ. The whole point of the art/sport is to step onto
the mat. Judo was just as popular (some would say even more so) then BJJ
in the 1950's, but it never went down the McDojo route. Why? Because the
core concepts of the art really don't allow it. You would have to have
the majority of judoka on the PLANET decide (at the same time) to sell
out. Sure a McDojo here or there opens, but they don't make it.
But the 'sour milk' group will say "back in the day karate/tkd/etc' was
pure too. But then X happened, then Y, so don't think it can't happen to
you. Well sure anything can happen, air might spontaneously turn into
gold (I can calculate a stat for it), but it's not likely to happen :)
BJJ only continues to grow in it's depth and breath (eg. leg locks and no
gi).
Kirk Lawson
>
> In article <MPG.1a1c6f15d...@news.umist.ac.uk>,
> >> when America's shopping malls are dotted with
> >> Brazilian Jiu-jitsu McDojos,
> >>
> >Do people seriously think this is a possibility? I'd have thought that
> >the "Eeeew!" factor in wrestling with ones fellow humans among a
> >McDojo's target audience would be a limiting factor?
>
> It's mostly noise from the 'sour milk' camp.
Then please explain Helio's full page add in Black Belt Magazine where he
denounces fake and watered down grappling schools.
We can deal with Simco's book later.
Grappler240
>(I foget which, I'm afraid) in BJJ commenting on some "walk ins" who
>promptly walked out again after seeing a class. At the time, the
>consensus was that it was fairly common for this to happen.
I would say 75% either watch and don't ever try or try once and never come
back.
and i like it that way.
-g
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"You can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it,for all I care."
-Gichoke, Jan. 21, 2002
kirks...@yourclothesoperamail.com
<Charle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Do people seriously think this is a possibility? I'd have thought that
>the "Eeeew!" factor in wrestling with ones fellow humans among a
>McDojo's target audience would be a limiting factor?
IMHO Yes, it's possible. However, the real stuff will remain the real
stuff, even after its popularity dies down (which, eventually, it
must. The crowd is a fickle mistress - I'm stunned that BJJ has
remained popular for this long).
Real vs fake - you can spot the difference in abt. 10 seconds. I'm
not saying there's a secret handshake or anything, but there's an
atmosphere, a way of movement, that's impossible to fake.
(damn, I sound like Chas and Sigman now ;-)
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Remove "your clothes" to email me
*****************************************
Paul J. Robertson
> "'Vejita' S. Cousin" wrote:
> >
> > In article <MPG.1a1c6f15d...@news.umist.ac.uk>,
> > >> when America's shopping malls are dotted with
> > >> Brazilian Jiu-jitsu McDojos,
> > >>
> > >Do people seriously think this is a possibility? I'd have thought that
> > >the "Eeeew!" factor in wrestling with ones fellow humans among a
> > >McDojo's target audience would be a limiting factor?
> >
> > It's mostly noise from the 'sour milk' camp.
>
> Then please explain Helio's full page add in Black Belt Magazine where he
> denounces fake and watered down grappling schools.
Follow the money. Helio benefits from every school with a "Gracie
Jiu-Jitsu" affiliation. So he puts down other schools.
When Pepsi says that Pepsi tastes better than Coke, I don't put too
much weight on it. When Helio says that GJJ is better than BJJ or
submission grappling, I don't put too much weight on that either.
Bateer
those guys who think they can learn how to grapple by reading about
it?
there's no substitute for mat time and qualified instruction. and if
you really want to improve outside of class, instructional videos are
a lot more useful than books. books on BJJ are really just coaching
manuals - more for reference and reminder than actual instruction.
i'd even wager that doing wind sprints will help you on the mats more
than constantly buying and reviewing BJJ books.
redpowe...@japan.com (red power ranger) wrote in message news:<8d70c702.03111...@posting.google.com>...
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> >> when America's shopping malls are dotted with
>> >> Brazilian Jiu-jitsu McDojos,
>> >>
>> >Do people seriously think this is a possibility? I'd have thought that
>> >the "Eeeew!" factor in wrestling with ones fellow humans among a
>> >McDojo's target audience would be a limiting factor?
>>
>> It's mostly noise from the 'sour milk' camp.
>
>Then please explain Helio's full page add in Black Belt Magazine where he
>denounces fake and watered down grappling schools.
Helio & Rorion/Royce's camp want to say that they teach/control pure
BJJ. Everyone else (including Carlson) is teaching a ripped off verison
of their art. You might recall that the art was just called jiujitsu
until it came to america where they decided to call it BJJ (to seperate it
from JJJ). The Machado's wanted to call what they taught BJJ too, but
Rorion and others didn't like it so they called it Machado JJ (long story
short).
Some in BJJ only want certain graices teaching the art, or people
associated with one other their schools. It's mostly an internal politics
game/crap. There's a lot of this in BJJ actually (Calrson vs. BTT for
example).
Boxing has lots of belts/organziations too. There's interal politics
and corroption throughout, but boxing the art is still going strong.
Now it is true that a LOT of schools/clubs have started teaching
grappling or adding grappling to their programs (it was lost in kata and
what not) because of the popularity of MMA. And yes, you should avoid
such places, because a TMA instructor that takes a seminar in grappling is
not a good person to learn ground fighting from.
LOTS of places are teaching piss poor grappling, that's only going to
increase (one would predict) as MMA continues to have more of a presence.
HOWEVER, the question here is about BJJ not 'grappling in general,' there
is a difference.
Bateer
> strong focus on randori and sport. Some people are down on sport (search
> sport vs. street) but the truth is a strong sport base keeps the art
> honest.
yeah i'll buy that. in BJJ you get to roll with your instructor and
fellow students - you actually get to feel the skill levels at work.
when i roll with my instructor, i try my hardest to win. he always
beats me. as long as that happens consistently, i still have things to
learn from him. that can't be faked.
'Vejita' S. Cousin
Grappler240 <grapp...@aol.comnojunk> wrote:
>>I remember one rma poster who trained or instructed
>>(I foget which, I'm afraid) in BJJ commenting on some "walk ins" who
>>promptly walked out again after seeing a class. At the time, the
>>consensus was that it was fairly common for this to happen.
>
>I would say 75% either watch and don't ever try or try once and never come
>back.
WOW! You guys manage to hang onto 25% of your first time newbies?
You've got to tell me how you do that, because we're running a lot lower
than that :)
Actually what normally happens is guys come in all excited about MMA.
"When can I fight, get me ready, I want to learn, this is so cool, etc"
We explain you learn grappling/sport BJJ first, then transition into MMA.
They're cool with that (or at least say so). But after getting tapped out
repeatly & easily by guys 20-50lbs smaller than them they just stop coming
(ego problems).
They never say that thou (they don't actually say anything since they
stop coming). It's always "this is so cool, man that was sweet, triangle
choke you say, etc" But then they just stop coming. Often after having
paid for 3mo+ in advance (we give discounts that way).
I do judo with the University club and karate with the university club
before that. We would start the qtr with ~20-30 new people and end with
5-10. Of which about 1-6 would show up next qtr. Those that made it over
2qtr (which normally meant they stayed until graduation) was like 1:50.
On mma.tc Bolo (Micheal Jen) was saying that moat people quit before
they make blue. A LOT more quit right after making blue. And less than
1% of people that walk into BJJ schools as newbies will make it to purple.
I don't think this is a good thing. I want to see more people coming into
the art and it growing, WITHOUT getting watered down (eg. boxing, mt,
judo, wrestling). I think BJJ can be as popular as wrestling (which isn't
that popular) IF certain changes were made:
double elimination/round robin tournaments (that started on time)
find ways to include/attract more women (judo has this down)
promote sport/health/lifestyle aspects (people train judo for
life)
More black belts (people want to learn from BBs 'nuff said)
Lower costs (hugely important)
Right now there's a shortage of BB BJJ insturctors in the USA. I'm hoping
that our current cohort will grow up to be the future BB of America and
start opening/running more clubs. Most judo schools/clubs ask $20-30/mo.
Because most are run by guys that want to train judo for life, it's a
whole life style. They are NOT instructors as a business.
So hopefully in 15-30yrs a whole groups of BJJ BBs will be around to
run classes: at the YMCA, local colleges, small clubs, etc. Grassroots
spread of a great art.
I think that (Title IX aside) guys that wrestled in HS or college are
looking for away to keep training once they are out of school. Besides
judo, I think either submission wrestling (or even BJJ with the gi) could
fill that void. And there's the potential to get a lot of support push
for sub-wrestling from pissed of 'anti-Title IX' group.
I'm west coast, so I'm not sure how well NAGA is doing with any of this
stuff back east.
h...@nospam.com
Robertson) wrote:
Wow. Ain't it the same old shit over, and over, and over again.
Hal
'Vejita' S. Cousin
Exactly, but it goes deeper than that. It's that the art focuses on
randori and sport. Again look at judo and boxing. There are several judo
and boxing instructors that are NOT as good a their students (not even
close). This is actually the case for most sports. But they skills they
can teach you. How do you know what they are teaching is any good. You
step onto the mat and you USE it.
Nothing is theorically or suppose to work. We have a debate about
which way to control the arm works better, no problem, let's step onto the
mat and TRY it.
Along with that comes, experimentation and growth. For example, leg
locks. Brazillians looked down on leg locks as 'cheap'. But then guys in
sub-wrestling started using them to win and so did the MMA guys. Now BJJ
could have said 'hey we're losing to leg locks so let's ban them.' But
instead they said, well leg locks are legal and we don't know them that
well, so I guess if we want to hang/compete at the top level we better
learn them.'
The rules are written in the negative (you can not do X, Y or Z).
Everything else is legal and encouraged. The art is pragmatic, if you
only know 1 sub but can get it 99.9% of the time that's good enough. etc.
etc. etc.
It is these aspects (The sport aspects) that keep people honest and
working to imporve the art. No tricks, no theory, just training. Now
that's sport BJJ (gi or no gi, and MMA). As for self defense, clearly
there's a lot more to it than just doing BJJ alone. But it's part of an
excellent base.
keith
I think it still is, at my club, I'd estimate only 15% or so of people
who try out a class ever come back again, and it's not like my club is
unusually hardcore or nothin'.
keith
Grappler240
>much weight on it. When Helio says that GJJ is better than BJJ or
>submission grappling, I don't put too much weight on that either.
especially considering hardly any Gracie owned school produces BJJ champs or
ADCC champs other than the Gracie brothers themselves....and Rorion's sons each
got soundly trounced in Rorion's recent "unltimate submissions showdown" with a
first round loss to americans with less experience.
Eric Neale
It's already happening. A guy lives in a small town and wants to make
money so he puts a name on the sign. He just claims he teaches
something he isn't qualified to teach. It could be any art including
BJJ, GJJ and MMA. Basicaly he gets the benifit of the name. He could
operate for months or even years before a real MMA/BJJ guy passes
through town, drops by to train and discovers the hoax. You can't get
good tornaments out in rual areas so it really would depend on luck.
Then when the real MMA/BJJ student exposes the fraud it may not be
conveyed to the people where he lives. His students may not realize
what has happened. Even if they do the fraud could just move to a
different rual area and start over. Some of the vitims in this scam
might try to ente real tornys and when they lose they might blame
themselves as not being good enough.
The up shot of it is that if you study MMA or BJJ then when you go on
a road trip or pass through a small town with a MMA type school please
stop by and make sure it isn't a fake. If they claim MMA/BJJ then
they will have to let you roll with them or you will know. If they
don't - well.
678
> In article <20031112163955...@mb-m21.aol.com>,
> Grappler240 <grapp...@aol.comnojunk> wrote:
>
>>>I remember one rma poster who trained or instructed
>>>(I foget which, I'm afraid) in BJJ commenting on some "walk ins" who
>>>promptly walked out again after seeing a class. At the time, the
>>>consensus was that it was fairly common for this to happen.
>>
>>I would say 75% either watch and don't ever try or try once and never come
>>back.
>
>
> WOW! You guys manage to hang onto 25% of your first time newbies?
> You've got to tell me how you do that, because we're running a lot lower
> than that :)
> Actually what normally happens is guys come in all excited about MMA.
> "When can I fight, get me ready, I want to learn, this is so cool, etc"
> We explain you learn grappling/sport BJJ first, then transition into MMA.
> They're cool with that (or at least say so). But after getting tapped out
> repeatly & easily by guys 20-50lbs smaller than them they just stop coming
> (ego problems).
> They never say that thou (they don't actually say anything since they
> stop coming). It's always "this is so cool, man that was sweet, triangle
> choke you say, etc" But then they just stop coming. Often after having
> paid for 3mo+ in advance (we give discounts that way).
> [snip]
I would say it's always like that in martial arts: only a small portion
of the students will stay.
Then of this small portion of students, a certain number of them train
hard and fight hard, and another small number of them just train for
fun, then there are another small number of them train for their entire
life. Most of the students though will quit martial arts at some point
in their life time because, well, there are simply more important
commitments and other fun things to do in one's life. Just a fact of
life. Perhaps that's why, where I live, most martial art instructors
have day time jobs.
TK Sung
"'Vejita' S. Cousin" <sco...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:bouf53$i00$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
>
> How do you know what they are teaching is any good. You
> step onto the mat and you USE it.
> Nothing is theorically or suppose to work.
>
champion, world champion, etc, etc) and one coach who attended the clinic
said that he said in japan they sometimes drill just one thing all year
long. (Imagine the patience and faith in "theory" required for doing only
kouchgari drill all year long without any mat time.) This type of teaching,
it seems to me, is no different than other TMAs, such as Aikido, where all
they do is drill. Yet, Judo is popular in Japan, obviously, and they are
the best in the world in competitions.
Dougie®
>I would say 75% either watch and don't ever try or try once and never come
>back.
>and i like it that way.
I say it's less than 25%. I am saying it's 5% or 10% max and
that's just those who try a second or 3rd class.
BillMahoney68
>
>>I would say 75% either watch and don't ever try or try once and never come
>>back.
>>and i like it that way.
>
> I say it's less than 25%. I am saying it's 5% or 10% max and
>that's just those who try a second or 3rd class.
I mostly get guys who have done MMA training or at least grappling elsewhere.
I get almost no true newbies.
When i do they are friends of a member.
Maybe join at 20%.
MMA types maybe higher.
But I get zero "i saw your sign..." types.
Gi
red power ranger
> redpowe...@japan.com (red power ranger) wrote in message news:<8d70c702.03111...@posting.google.com>...
> > me say that someday, when America's shopping malls are dotted with
>
> Are you looking forward to that?
Well, if there really were BJJ McDojos springing up, I would certainly
do better at the tournaments than I do now. <chuckle>
red power ranger
> why do you spend so much time and money on BJJ books? are you one of
> those guys who think they can learn how to grapple by reading about
> it?
>
> there's no substitute for mat time and qualified instruction. and if
> you really want to improve outside of class, instructional videos are
> a lot more useful than books.
Did I just hear an echo? I said this on in this newsgroup (as Krav
Maga) not three weeks ago. See: http://tinyurl.com/ut6m
> books on BJJ are really just coaching
> manuals - more for reference and reminder than actual instruction.
Which means...? I have learned subtle points from books, just as I
have learned other subtle points in class. Each has their place. An
example is Cartmell's "Passing the Guard". This covers guard passes
in much more detail than you will ever see in a class. If I go to
twenty classes where my instructor decides to work on guard passes,
then I would probably learn what is in Cartmell and more. But having
read Cartmell gives me some nice pointers on which I can develop
further in class and with my instructor.
> i'd even wager that doing wind sprints will help you on the mats more
> than constantly buying and reviewing BJJ books.
Some people don't like to read. Others don't understand what they
read. For those, you are probably right.
red power ranger
> Brazillians looked down on leg locks as 'cheap'. But then guys in
> sub-wrestling started using them to win and so did the MMA guys. Now BJJ
> could have said 'hey we're losing to leg locks so let's ban them.' But
> instead they said, well leg locks are legal and we don't know them that
> well, so I guess if we want to hang/compete at the top level we better
> learn them.'
It's a more complicated case than just that. It's actually an example
of art vs. practicality, with a bit of social casting thrown into the
mix.
"Brazilians" per say, did not look down on leg locks. Leg locks, ankle
locks and foot locks have long been a staple of Brazilian Luta Livre
(fr. "la lutte libre"). It was the Brazilian "BJJ players" who looked
down on leg locks, because Luta Livre was looked down on by BJJ
players as a ghetto art. Therefore its signature submissions was also
looked down upon. BJJ players long realized these finishing holds
worked, since Luta Livre players would use these holds against them in
cross-art matches. However, whenever a BJJ player would use one in a
tournament, he would be disparagingly referred to as a "suburbano" (in
reference to the ghetto). However, since Cumprido won a mundial over
Roleta with a pé-de-vaca, leg locks finally hit the mainstream in BJJ.
So you see, it took the support of a big name to overcome the
prejudice.
BillMahoney68
>ews:<9ecf73af.0311...@posting.google.com>...
>> why do you spend so much time and money on BJJ books? are you one of
>> those guys who think they can learn how to grapple by reading about
>> it?
>>
>> there's no substitute for mat time and qualified instruction. and if
>> you really want to improve outside of class, instructional videos are
>> a lot more useful than books.
>
>Did I just hear an echo? I said this on in this newsgroup (as Krav
>Maga) not three weeks ago. See: http://tinyurl.com/ut6m
>
>> books on BJJ are really just coaching
>> manuals - more for reference and reminder than actual instruction.
>
>Which means...? I have learned subtle points from books, just as I
>have learned other subtle points in class. Each has their place. An
>example is Cartmell's "Passing the Guard". This covers guard passes
>in much more detail than you will ever see in a class. If I go to
>twenty classes where my instructor decides to work on guard passes,
>then I would probably learn what is in Cartmell and more. But having
>read Cartmell gives me some nice pointers on which I can develop
>further in class and with my instructor.
What about videos?
I learn WAY more from videos than books.
Gi
BillMahoney68
Thats the version Ive heard.
But Ive also heard Helio say that WAY back in BJJ leglocks were the rage.It
doesnt sound right, but he said it.He went on and on about how BJJers today(he
said this a few years back) were weak on leglocks(he might have said footlocks,
not sure)
GI
red power ranger
> those guys who think they can learn how to grapple by reading about
> it?
>
> there's no substitute for mat time and qualified instruction. and if
> you really want to improve outside of class, instructional videos are
> a lot more useful than books. books on BJJ are really just coaching
> manuals - more for reference and reminder than actual instruction.
>
> i'd even wager that doing wind sprints will help you on the mats more
> than constantly buying and reviewing BJJ books.
One final comment. I am a 4 stripe blue in BJJ. My instructor is
going to have to invent another stripe just so I can go someplace.
Unless Lloyd Irvin comes out soon with his Grappling Blueprint, I feel
destined to go to my grave as a blue.
So anything (books, videos, privates, tournaments, wind sprints, etc.)
can only help. I'm beginning to think that my problem is that I
haven't suffered enough organic damage, as the purples around me all
have mangled knees and other parts, while somehow I've managed to
escape without even a single broken or dislocated toe. My instructor
probably looks on this as a sign of lack of commitment on my part...
Charles McKey
sco...@u.washington.edu says...
>
> I do judo with the University club and karate with the university club
> before that. We would start the qtr with ~20-30 new people and end with
> 5-10. Of which about 1-6 would show up next qtr. Those that made it over
> 2qtr (which normally meant they stayed until graduation) was like 1:50.
>
where I train, so much is subsidised (you don't have to buy your own
gear, sessions are cheap) that the cost of joining the club & training
is tiny. Adding to the factors that are there for any other club, you
have the old thing of people not valuing stuff they don't have to pay
for (or that they pay relatively little for), as well as the fact that
they may well join a whole bunch of clubs in a burst of enthusiasm and
only stick with one or two.
We usually start the year with between 100 and 150 new people; this
year, there were about 20-30 of us from previous years at training.
Kirk Lawson
>
> > > It's mostly noise from the 'sour milk' camp.
> >
> > Then please explain Helio's full page add in Black Belt Magazine where he
> > denounces fake and watered down grappling schools.
>
> Follow the money. Helio benefits from every school with a "Gracie
> Jiu-Jitsu" affiliation. So he puts down other schools.
>
> When Pepsi says that Pepsi tastes better than Coke, I don't put too
> much weight on it. When Helio says that GJJ is better than BJJ or
> submission grappling, I don't put too much weight on that either.
And then what of Simco's complaints of watered down grappling in his book?
Kirk Lawson
> >> It's mostly noise from the 'sour milk' camp.
> >
> >Then please explain Helio's full page add in Black Belt Magazine where he
> >denounces fake and watered down grappling schools.
>
> Helio & Rorion/Royce's camp want to say that they teach/control pure
> BJJ. Everyone else (including Carlson) is teaching a ripped off verison
> of their art. You might recall that the art was just called jiujitsu
> until it came to america where they decided to call it BJJ (to seperate it
> from JJJ). The Machado's wanted to call what they taught BJJ too, but
> Rorion and others didn't like it so they called it Machado JJ (long story
> short).
> Some in BJJ only want certain graices teaching the art, or people
> associated with one other their schools. It's mostly an internal politics
> game/crap. There's a lot of this in BJJ actually (Calrson vs. BTT for
> example).
Then what of Simco's similar complaints?
> LOTS of places are teaching piss poor grappling, that's only going to
> increase (one would predict) as MMA continues to have more of a presence.
> HOWEVER, the question here is about BJJ not 'grappling in general,' there
> is a difference.
I submit that the general public sees little distinction, if any. As a
parallel, most here on RMA see little difference, if any, between WTF TKD and
ATA TKD despite the well documented fact that sparring and techniques in one are
much more restricted (and often markedly different) in important ways than in
the other. To most, it's just "TKD." Likewise, grappling is just grappling,
whether BJJ, GJJ, MJJ, Submission, Combat Hapkido, or "piss poor grappling" add
ons.
Kirk Lawson
> when i roll with my instructor, i try my hardest to win. he always
> beats me. as long as that happens consistently, i still have things to
> learn from him. that can't be faked.
And what if you can consistently beat him? Will you still have things to
learn? Perhaps Mohammed Ali didn't really need his coach after all, since I
have little doubt he could have drubbed said coach easily.
Grappler240
>the best in the world in competitions.
>
actually the europeans(germans, dutch, etc.) are.
Kirk Lawson
> WOW! You guys manage to hang onto 25% of your first time newbies?
> You've got to tell me how you do that, because we're running a lot lower
> than that :)
Your student retention program sucks.
I bet you don't have one. Nor do you likely have any sort of real recruiting
program, I'd wager. I'll bet that your recruiting/advertising is limited to an
entry in the Yellow Pages and the shingle hung above the door (like the bust of
Pallas - nevermore...).
> Actually what normally happens is guys come in all excited about MMA.
> "When can I fight, get me ready, I want to learn, this is so cool, etc"
> We explain you learn grappling/sport BJJ first, then transition into MMA.
> They're cool with that (or at least say so). But after getting tapped out
> repeatly & easily by guys 20-50lbs smaller than them they just stop coming
> (ego problems).
Why do you just think it's an ego problem? Are you just assuming? Do you
contact the students to find out why they're not coming? There could be a
zillion reasons, and if research done for other MA schools is valid for BJJ
schools (and I'll wager it is), those other reasons are likely more the norm.
Things like, "life was busier then I thought and just didn't have time for MA,"
"My budget didn't allow it after all," and "It just wasn't what I thought
Martial Arts was about."
Heck, I'll lay money that a significant number of them stopped coming for simple
motivational problems, in much the same phenomenon that health clubs experience
around March and April.
The point is, you've got valuable students walking out the door on a regular
basis and you have no idea why. If this were the company you work for losing
customers don't you think that Marketing would be on the phone to every last one
of them trying to find out what the problem is? Maybe sending out
questionnaires after the first week/month: "How's the service, what would you
like to see more of, is there something you hate"???
Who knows, maybe there's a perception that you guys go too hard and hurt people
unnecessarily? Maybe not, but the way things are right now, you'll never know.
> I don't think this is a good thing. I want to see more people coming into
> the art and it growing, WITHOUT getting watered down (eg. boxing, mt,
> judo, wrestling).
Let me get this strait. It sounds like you (and BJJ/GJJ/etc. in general)
depends almost exclusively on walk-ins, extremely limited passive marketing,
your resell is mostly done through publications and topic specific internet
sites that primarily target the dedicated grapplers, and you wonder why the art
isn't growing like TKD?
> So hopefully in 15-30yrs a whole groups of BJJ BBs will be around to
> run classes: at the YMCA, local colleges, small clubs, etc. Grassroots
> spread of a great art.
Don't count on grassroots. Grassroots movements require something that truly
binds largish segments of population together. They're grassroots movements
because they don't have (nor require) anything but limited volunteer
management. That's pretty much what you're doing now. Why do more of the same
and expect the results to be any different?
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
678 <neve...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I would say it's always like that in martial arts: only a small portion
>of the students will stay.
Yeah; there's a hell of a lot of people around who did something or other
for a short while (most clubs around here seem to charge membership fees
by the half-year, or semester) at some point in the past.
--
Leif Kjønnøy, Geek of a Few Trades. http://www.pvv.org/~leifmk
Disclaimer: Do not try this at home.
Void where prohibited by law.
Batteries not included.
Kirk Lawson
> I think it still is, at my club, I'd estimate only 15% or so of people
> who try out a class ever come back again, and it's not like my club is
> unusually hardcore or nothin'.
That's not unusual for most Martial Arts. Ask around. The difference is (I
suspect) on how many try it out in the first place. If you've only got 2 people
tying it out this month, even a 50% loss hits hard.
Kirk Lawson
> But to comment on the ad we would have to see what exactly the ad
> says.
It made some pretty big news. You can probably look it up somewhere on the
'net.
> > We can deal with Simco's book later.
>
> Exact quotes would be helpful.
I'll have to dig out my book. I'll try to post it up soon.
Kirk Lawson
> I would say it's always like that in martial arts: only a small portion
> of the students will stay.
>
> Then of this small portion of students, a certain number of them train
> hard and fight hard, and another small number of them just train for
> fun, then there are another small number of them train for their entire
> life. Most of the students though will quit martial arts at some point
> in their life time because, well, there are simply more important
> commitments and other fun things to do in one's life. Just a fact of
> life.
That doesn't stop them from engaging in any number of other time consuming
hobbies. Everything from LAN Parties, to surfing the web, to watching every
last HS, College, and Pro football game in season on Cable and Sat.
> Perhaps that's why, where I live, most martial art instructors
> have day time jobs.
No. They have day jobs because, for whatever reason, they do not run their
School like a business. Some think that it perverts the Art, some just don't
know how, and other don't want to do the non-MA part of business (billing
sucks). Whatever the reason. It's possible to live off of a Martial Arst
school as your *job*. It's just that most don't.
Kirk Lawson
>
> grapp...@aol.comnojunk (Grappler240) wrote:
>
> >I would say 75% either watch and don't ever try or try once and never come
> >back.
> >and i like it that way.
>
> I say it's less than 25%. I am saying it's 5% or 10% max and
> that's just those who try a second or 3rd class.
Do any of you guys use aggressive advertising, marketing, resell, or customer
retention techniques?
I know none of the instructors I've ever had ever did more then minor customer
retention stuff (of course, I've *always* used Garage Dojos/Park&Reck type
schools).
Geez, and people wonder why TKD is so popular. They run their businesses
better!
I bet you that Frank Ben does a lot of this crap. Ask him.
Dougie®
>I mostly get guys who have done MMA training or at least grappling elsewhere.
>I get almost no true newbies.
>When i do they are friends of a member.
>Maybe join at 20%.
>MMA types maybe higher.
>But I get zero "i saw your sign..." types.
Friends I have previously worked out with in the past have
come out to the club and tried a few classes and never come back. They
prefer Kenpo because they say it's less work.
I suppose...
Dougie®
>Yet, Judo is popular in Japan, obviously, and they are
>the best in the world in competitions.
When Judo was brought into the Olympics and the Russians
converted a lot of Sambo guys to learning it and teaching so they
could have a competitive team I heard that for a while they ate up the
scene.
Dougie®
>Do any of you guys use aggressive advertising, marketing, resell, or customer
>retention techniques?
No. As far as I know I am the first person in 8 years to
actively advertise our club.
Otherwise it's been word of mouth.
Mike Ozanne
<dougee...@canada.REMOVE.com> wrote:
>"TK Sung" <tks...@wahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Yet, Judo is popular in Japan, obviously, and they are
>>the best in the world in competitions.
>
> When Judo was brought into the Olympics and the Russians
>converted a lot of Sambo guys to learning it and teaching so they
>could have a competitive team I heard that for a while they ate up the
>scene.
They made a big push in the early seventies and established a
significant presence, but it was not a dominant position by any means.
What they did bring about was a change of attitude. It had been a,
more or less, gentlemanly battle of skills, the Russkis made it more
like a scrap.
Mike Ozanne
Fraser Johnston
customer
> retention techniques?
>
We had someone come to our door to today and ask if we wanted to join a
karate school. I shit you not. The funniest thing was I was putting non
my gi at the time to go to class and my wife laughed and said we wouldn't
have time between the BJJ Aikido and JJJ. Meanwhile the two dogs were going
spastic at the window. The look on the chicks face was classic.
Fraser
Matthew Weigel
>Then please explain Helio's full page add in Black Belt Magazine where he
>denounces fake and watered down grappling schools.
Two ways. One is control - "if you're not one of Helio's blackbelts,
you don't do real BJJ." In fact that's not true, there are whole lines
of rank that are completely separate from Helio; a quick look at bjj.org
shows that Helio is but one branch (the Machado brothers, for instance,
are not on that branch, but get their rank through Carlos Gracie Jr.).
You'll note that Helio does *not* claim that anyone who can legitimately
trace their rank up to Helio is fake or watered down.
The other is that it's a denouncement beyond the borders of BJJ; anything
outside BJJ that gets watered down can hardly be related to the
McDojoification of BJJ. That is, Helio is claiming that if it's outside
BJJ, it's not subject to the same cross-school testing of rank that BJJ
is, the emphasis on sport performance in BJJ can't be guaranteed to be
there, etc.
Now, back to you: if you claim that the McDojoification of BJJ is just a
matter of time, describe and explain the extent to which judo, Muay
Thai, and boxing have become McDojos, or what (if anything) prevents
them from becoming a big pile of McDojos.
--
Matthew Weigel
hacker
uni...@cmu.edu
Matthew Weigel
>And then what of Simco's complaints of watered down grappling in his book?
I probably speak for a lot of people when I say "what are those claims,
exactly?"
Badger North
wrote:
>But I get zero "i saw your sign..." types.
That doesn't surprise me, both because of the nature of what you
teach, and because you've mentioned previously that your place is in
the middle of nowhere.
Then again, I've taken the sign out of the window, since the "I saw
your sign" walk-ins almost universally don't join.
Badger Jones
http://members.rogers.com/badger
www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm
Badger North
<NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>Geez, and people wonder why TKD is so popular. They run their businesses
>better!
Well, that's because the Koreans turned the whole problem around.
Instead of being martial artists running a business, they are
businessmen selling you martial arts.
A couple of times a year I receive a flashy trade mag from YK Kim's
organization, and it's almost creepy to read it - extremely predatory.
Badger North
>>Follow the money. Helio benefits from every school with a "Gracie
>>Jiu-Jitsu" affiliation. So he puts down other schools.
>>
>>When Pepsi says that Pepsi tastes better than Coke, I don't put too
>>much weight on it. When Helio says that GJJ is better than BJJ or
>>submission grappling, I don't put too much weight on that either.
>
>Wow. Ain't it the same old shit over, and over, and over again.
Yep, protecting the rice bowl is as old as the manufacture of bowls.
Kirk Lawson
But I bet they sign up 25% new students or more.
Kirk Lawson
> Now, back to you: if you claim that the McDojoification of BJJ is just a
> matter of time, describe and explain the extent to which judo, Muay
> Thai, and boxing have become McDojos, or what (if anything) prevents
> them from becoming a big pile of McDojos.
I point to two interlinking phenomenon. First, is the spread in popularity of
"grappling" and the attendant "watering down" of grappling (according to the
testimony of grapplers). Second is the equation of "grappling" and
"BJJ/GJJ/anythingelse" in the minds of the general public.
Kirk Lawson
>
> Kirk Lawson <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>
> >And then what of Simco's complaints of watered down grappling in his book?
>
> I probably speak for a lot of people
At least one or two, yeah.
> when I say "what are those claims, exactly?"
It was in the same vein. I'll have to dig out the quote. I should have
bookmarked and highlighted it, but at the time I read it I just thought,
"interesting... he apparently agrees with me."
red power ranger
> Gene Simco complains about it in his well respected book, "The Masters
> Text."
A well-respected book perhaps, but from an disreputable source.
About a week ago, I asked a question about the propriety of
instructors wearing "the wrong belt" when teaching. Among others, you
came back with a definite nay: http://tinyurl.com/uvr1
Would it surprise you to learn that the guy I was asking about was
Gene Simco, who prior to 1999 wore his Japanese Jujutsu black belt to
teach Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, even though he had earned only a blue belt
in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu at the time?
Would it surprise you to learn that Gene Simco claimed to his present
instructor, Michael "Bolo" Jen (http://www.jenbjj.com/) that he had
first earned his BJJ brown belt from Fernando "Cabeça" Sarmento Jr.
(http://www.fernando-cabeca.com/) but that after some sexual
harrassment scandal, the belt was rescinded - a claim that Cabeça
adamantly denies? Instead Cabeça claims that Gene Simco wanted the
brown belt to help his "marketing" efforts and Cabeça refused to
participate in the deception.
Sigh... My work to discredit Gene Simco continues...
red power ranger
> Bateer wrote:
>
> > when i roll with my instructor, i try my hardest to win. he always
> > beats me. as long as that happens consistently, i still have things to
> > learn from him. that can't be faked.
>
> And what if you can consistently beat him? Will you still have things to
> learn? Perhaps Mohammed Ali didn't really need his coach after all, since I
> have little doubt he could have drubbed said coach easily.
Haha! You beat me to this comment.
red power ranger
> And then what of Simco's complaints of watered down grappling in his book?
Like Simco is the one to talk about watered down BJJ! Ha!
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> I do judo with the University club and karate with the university club
>> before that. We would start the qtr with ~20-30 new people and end with
>> 5-10. Of which about 1-6 would show up next qtr. Those that made it over
>> 2qtr (which normally meant they stayed until graduation) was like 1:50.
>>
>Yeah, although University clubs tend to be special cases - at least
>where I train, so much is subsidised (you don't have to buy your own
>gear, sessions are cheap) that the cost of joining the club & training
>is tiny. Adding to the factors that are there for any other club, you
>have the old thing of people not valuing stuff they don't have to pay
>for (or that they pay relatively little for), as well as the fact that
>they may well join a whole bunch of clubs in a burst of enthusiasm and
>only stick with one or two.
The Judo club is $15/qtr and Gojuryu karate was $45/qtr. The
difference in price is larage but's that's still 3mo of training either
way.
Kirk Lawson
>
> Kirk Lawson <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>
> >And then what of Simco's complaints of watered down grappling in his book?
>
> I probably speak for a lot of people when I say "what are those claims,
> exactly?"
From: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu - The Master Text by Gene "Aranha" Simco (c) 2001
Topic: Where do I start? - History
pp 45-46
"...Everybody jumped on the Jiu-jitsu boat to take the short trip to learn what
it takes to survive Jiu-jitsu's attacks. After learning a few arm locks and
chokes, they would turn around and call it something else, like 'submission
grappling' or 'submission wrestling' and give Brazilian Jiu-jitsu no credit.
Not only would they deny Jiu-jitsu of the credit it deserved, they would try to
defeat Jiu-jitsu to legitimize their own new arts and claim that these arts had
been around for years."
"...Many American Karate instructors were unwilling to let go of their egos and
black belts to learn Brazilian Jiu-jitsu from the beginning (as I did) and take
the years of dedication to earn the black belt in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Instead,
they woudl add a few Jiu-jitsu moves to their Karate program sand claim it had
been there all along, teaching a watered down mess of grappling technique
without the experience behind them that makes them effective. As a result of
this, the American public is being mislead and confused."
"...Now I am seeing something that is bothering me even more ... Students of
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu are starting grappling tournaments without the sanctioning
body of a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu federation or the leadership of experienced
instructors. Their referees and judges are inexperienced, their rules are based
on Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, but they do not understand them. The people running
these tournaments are making new rules without the years of experience it takes
to make these decisions."
"...there is nothing for the North East to preserve the quality of jiu-jitsu as
a sport and help it grow."
red power ranger
> >When Pepsi says that Pepsi tastes better than Coke, I don't put too
> >much weight on it. When Helio says that GJJ is better than BJJ or
> >submission grappling, I don't put too much weight on that either.
>
> ADCC champs other than the Gracie brothers themselves....and Rorion's sons each
> got soundly trounced in Rorion's recent "unltimate submissions showdown" with a
> first round loss to americans with less experience.
The Gracies have produced some champions though, so I wouldn't say
none at all. And they do produce many BJJ jacket-wrestling champions
(vs. ADCC no-Gi).
As I've mentioned before as "Krav Maga", it really depends on how you
define the game. If the game is jacket-wrestling under BJJ rules,
then the Gracies have produced champions. If the game is no-Gi
submission grappling under ADCC-rules, then the Gracies have produced
no champions.
Kirk Lawson
>
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:39:02 -0500, Kirk Lawson
> <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>
> >Geez, and people wonder why TKD is so popular. They run their businesses
> >better!
>
> Well, that's because the Koreans turned the whole problem around.
> Instead of being martial artists running a business, they are
> businessmen selling you martial arts.
What's wrong with that? You've got a product that you honestly believe that
almost everyone could benefit from (you *do* believe that, don't you?). Why
*not* go out and get the customers to realize that?
> A couple of times a year I receive a flashy trade mag from YK Kim's
> organization, and it's almost creepy to read it - extremely predatory.
There's marketing and then there's Marketing. You can do aggressive marketing
without being unethical.
red power ranger
> Likewise, grappling is just grappling,
> whether BJJ, GJJ, MJJ, Submission, Combat Hapkido, or "piss poor grappling"
> add ons.
Or even Farmer Burns Catch Wrestling?
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> > Do any of you guys use aggressive advertising, marketing, resell, or
>> > customer retention techniques?
>>
>> We had someone come to our door to today and ask if we wanted to join a
>> karate school. I shit you not. The funniest thing was I was putting non
>> my gi at the time to go to class and my wife laughed and said we wouldn't
>> have time between the BJJ Aikido and JJJ. Meanwhile the two dogs were going
>> spastic at the window. The look on the chicks face was classic.
>
But do they keep them? I like to compare my BJJ school to the
University jud club. The BJJ school doesn't get that many new people and
'newbie' turnover is high. The judo clubs gets a TON of people each qtr,
but very few come back next qtr.
In both cases rention is low. I think it's because of the hard work,
physical demands and getting 'beaten' by smaller guys (and in judo women).
BJJ also costs a lot more to train.
Now the judo club has zero follow up, and my BJJ school's followup
isn't that great either. But most people that start quit (for whatever
reason). I think it's because they 'excepted something different.' Call
it ego if you want, but they expected to get better (quickly), they
expected to learn some super secret techniques, they expected a lot of
'training' not a lot of conditioning, and for judo esp they don't like the
'warmup' which drops most people.
Also judo and BJJ are 'honest' arts. Both will tell you from the start
that size and weight matter, strength matters, etc. People don't like to
hear that either.
Then there's the fun aspect. A fair number of people just don't find
physically demanding work fun. Some would call it lazy.. but to each
their own.
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> WOW! You guys manage to hang onto 25% of your first time newbies?
>> You've got to tell me how you do that, because we're running a lot lower
>> than that :)
>
>Your student retention program sucks.
>
>I bet you don't have one. Nor do you likely have any sort of real recruiting
>program, I'd wager. I'll bet that your recruiting/advertising is limited to an
>entry in the Yellow Pages and the shingle hung above the door (like the bust of
>Pallas - nevermore...).
What is this 'yellow-pages' of which you speak??? Actually we do have
some problems/limitations that could be improved upon. We mostly have a
net presence, and spilt classes into beginners and 'non-beginners'. The
problem is that I think the cost of training BJJ is too high for most of
our target market (college students, we are right across the street from a
4yr college and about 10min away from another).
>> Actually what normally happens is guys come in all excited about MMA.
>> "When can I fight, get me ready, I want to learn, this is so cool, etc"
>> We explain you learn grappling/sport BJJ first, then transition into MMA.
>> They're cool with that (or at least say so). But after getting tapped out
>> repeatly & easily by guys 20-50lbs smaller than them they just stop coming
>> (ego problems).
>
>Why do you just think it's an ego problem? Are you just assuming? Do you
>contact the students to find out why they're not coming?
9/10 yes, we get their contact info when they sign up. And if a
'regular' misses more than a week of class we'll normally call them just
to make sure everything is ok.
>"My budget didn't allow it after all," and "It just wasn't what I thought
>Martial Arts was about."
Again, as I said BJJ isn't cheap. I really feel that this is the
number one problem limited it's growth in the US.
>The point is, you've got valuable students walking out the door on a regular
>basis and you have no idea why. If this were the company you work for losing
>customers don't you think that Marketing would be on the phone to every last one
>of them trying to find out what the problem is? Maybe sending out
>questionnaires after the first week/month: "How's the service, what would you
>like to see more of, is there something you hate"???
We ask why people stop coming, then ask if there was anything we could
have done differently or should do differently that would make a
difference. Besides costs (and a sat open mat class) they ususally have
no suggestions.
>Who knows, maybe there's a perception that you guys go too hard and hurt people
>unnecessarily? Maybe not, but the way things are right now, you'll never know.
Again we do know, we normally follow up. IMHO it's peopel quiting for
ego (or money).
>> I don't think this is a good thing. I want to see more people coming into
>> the art and it growing, WITHOUT getting watered down (eg. boxing, mt,
>> judo, wrestling).
>
>Let me get this strait. It sounds like you (and BJJ/GJJ/etc. in general)
>depends almost exclusively on walk-ins, extremely limited passive marketing,
>your resell is mostly done through publications and topic specific internet
>sites that primarily target the dedicated grapplers, and you wonder why the art
>isn't growing like TKD?
Something like that yes. Here's the thing, people are aware that
boxing and judo exist but most people have no idea what judo is all about
(ie. no strikes). VERY few people are going to choose to find our
specific club. Most are going to do google searchs for either mma, nhb,
ufc, bjj, gracie, etc. So we try to list ourselves on those sites.
Your correct that there is a LOT more we could do to promote ourselves,
there always is.
>> So hopefully in 15-30yrs a whole groups of BJJ BBs will be around to
>> run classes: at the YMCA, local colleges, small clubs, etc. Grassroots
>> spread of a great art.
>
>Don't count on grassroots. Grassroots movements require something that truly
>binds largish segments of population together. They're grassroots movements
>because they don't have (nor require) anything but limited volunteer
>management. That's pretty much what you're doing now. Why do more of the same
>and expect the results to be any different?
It's not the same. Again look at judo. Most judo clubs are run
because the 'instructors' just want to train. It's a lifestyle. We do
not have that in BJJ right now. Most clubs are run as for profit busniess
(high costs).
What I'd like to see is more clubs run as not-for profits, lead by
black belts (which many clubs are not), and with several other black belts
there to just train. Kids programs, gi and no-gi subwrestling, MMA, etc.
The total number of quailifed instructors in the US right now is VERY
VERY small compared to judo, TKD, boxing, etc. My hope would be that
15-30yrs from now the current students will decide that 'hey I want to
keep training until I die but there's no club near me, so I'll start
something at the YMCA/community college/etc. and like judo we'll ask for
$20 to cover costs, I just want some place with clean mats and warm
bodies.'
That model just is not possible in BJJ currently (unless run by blue or
purple belts).
Kirk Lawson
>
> Kirk Lawson <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote in message news:<3FB26022...@heapy.com>...
> > Gene Simco complains about it in his well respected book, "The Masters
> > Text."
>
> A well-respected book perhaps, but from an disreputable source.
>
> About a week ago, I asked a question about the propriety of
> instructors wearing "the wrong belt" when teaching. Among others, you
> came back with a definite nay: http://tinyurl.com/uvr1
>
> Would it surprise you to learn that the guy I was asking about was
> Gene Simco, who prior to 1999 wore his Japanese Jujutsu black belt to
> teach Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, even though he had earned only a blue belt
> in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu at the time?
I don't know the guy but that's not what he says in his book.
Kirk Lawson
Yes. The general public sees no real difference between Catch-as-Catch-Can and
BJJ.
TK Sung
"Grappler240" <grapp...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20031113075145...@mb-m10.aol.com...
>
> actually the europeans(germans, dutch, etc.) are.
>
last time I checked, japan won 3 of 8 in osaka world's while europe had 1,
with remaining 4 going to other asians.
Kirk Lawson
> What is this 'yellow-pages' of which you speak??? Actually we do have
> some problems/limitations that could be improved upon. We mostly have a
> net presence, and spilt classes into beginners and 'non-beginners'. The
> problem is that I think the cost of training BJJ is too high for most of
> our target market (college students, we are right across the street from a
> 4yr college and about 10min away from another).
Yeah. You definitely need to do a better job of reaching your target market.
And don't fool yourself into believing that college students are poor. They
always seem to have enough money to get drunk on the weekends, buy the latest
CD, put gas in their cars, and purchase man eating stereos. Perhaps you need to
narrow your focus a bit from "college students" to "college students with
disposable income."
> >Why do you just think it's an ego problem? Are you just assuming? Do you
> >contact the students to find out why they're not coming?
>
> 9/10 yes, we get their contact info when they sign up. And if a
> 'regular' misses more than a week of class we'll normally call them just
> to make sure everything is ok.
Good on you for at least asking. Have you considered an Exit Questionnaire?
Throw in a promise of a $5 coupon for Pizza if they fill it out complete with
suggestions on what would make them stay.
> >"My budget didn't allow it after all," and "It just wasn't what I thought
> >Martial Arts was about."
>
> Again, as I said BJJ isn't cheap. I really feel that this is the
> number one problem limited it's growth in the US.
Doubtless it is a limiting factor. Yet I see teens, young adults, and working
stiffs spending tons of cash on stuff they want all the time. You're job as a
"marketoid" is to convince them that BJJ is "stuff they want" - at least more
then the latest Britney CD.
> >Who knows, maybe there's a perception that you guys go too hard and hurt people
> >unnecessarily? Maybe not, but the way things are right now, you'll never know.
>
> Again we do know, we normally follow up. IMHO it's peopel quiting for
> ego (or money).
Just because you follow up doesn't mean you know. Perhaps your followup tools
need tweaked. IIRC, there's a MA Business site that has a couple of samples.
> >Let me get this strait. It sounds like you (and BJJ/GJJ/etc. in general)
> >depends almost exclusively on walk-ins, extremely limited passive marketing,
> >your resell is mostly done through publications and topic specific internet
> >sites that primarily target the dedicated grapplers, and you wonder why the art
> >isn't growing like TKD?
>
> Something like that yes. Here's the thing, people are aware that
> boxing and judo exist but most people have no idea what judo is all about
> (ie. no strikes).
From a marketing perspective, you don't care about Judo/etc. or why your
potential clients don't know about them. You care about why they don't know
about the wonderful benefits of your specific school. The two reasons may not
be the same.
> VERY few people are going to choose to find our
> specific club.
That's not their fault. Marketing is often about identifying a need that your
potential customers have and don't know that they have. Sometimes this is
disparagingly referred to as "creating the need" but that's not accurate. The
job of Marketing is to show the customer *why* he wants the product. If he
truly doesn't, he'll ignore your marketing.
Ask yourself this: Do you think that many, or even most, people would benefit
from training at your school? If the answer is yes, the make a list of "whys"
(write it down). Then sort that list by the reasons that are most important to
your target market. Then, for each reason, make a short, interesting, attention
catching sentence that quickly describes the benefit, sometimes with a question
preamble. i.e.: Want to be able to protect yourself from even the largest, most
dangerous opponents? Fu Bar Do teaches you how to neutralize his strength by
using skill and being in close where his strength doesn't count! Next,
carefully identify your target market; again, make out a list of what defines
them. Finally look for effective ways to present your message to the target
market (web sites just don't work). A handbill of your carefully crafted
"Benefits List" posted in the Student Union, delivered to each dorm door, or
pasted on top of Pizza boxes are excellent examples for your particular target
market (you can offer to give the pizzeria owner & employees a few free lessons
in exchange for the opportunity to to past the flyers on - do that work yourself
though).
> Most are going to do google searchs for either mma, nhb,
> ufc, bjj, gracie, etc. So we try to list ourselves on those sites.
That won't get new students very effectively.
> Your correct that there is a LOT more we could do to promote ourselves,
> there always is.
And a lot of it is *very* easy. Really, how hard is it to post a flyer or leave
a stack of them in the Student Union every week or so? You could ask one of
your students from the U to drop them there for you.
> It's not the same. Again look at judo. Most judo clubs are run
> because the 'instructors' just want to train. It's a lifestyle. We do
> not have that in BJJ right now. Most clubs are run as for profit busniess
> (high costs).
> What I'd like to see is more clubs run as not-for profits, lead by
> black belts (which many clubs are not), and with several other black belts
> there to just train. Kids programs, gi and no-gi subwrestling, MMA, etc.
> The total number of quailifed instructors in the US right now is VERY
> VERY small compared to judo, TKD, boxing, etc. My hope would be that
> 15-30yrs from now the current students will decide that 'hey I want to
> keep training until I die but there's no club near me, so I'll start
> something at the YMCA/community college/etc. and like judo we'll ask for
> $20 to cover costs, I just want some place with clean mats and warm
> bodies.'
> That model just is not possible in BJJ currently (unless run by blue or
> purple belts).
This "long" aproach *might* work in 30 years. But it doesn't help you a bit
today.
No offense, I'm not trying to be strident or anything. It's just that there are
*so* many things you can do that are *so* easy that I just get kinda excitable
when people talk about how they're not growing but aren't doing the easy things
to help themselves grow.
Kirk Lawson
>
> In article <3FB3A5EC...@heapy.com>,
> >> > Do any of you guys use aggressive advertising, marketing, resell, or
> >> > customer retention techniques?
> >>
> >> We had someone come to our door to today and ask if we wanted to join a
> >> karate school. I shit you not. The funniest thing was I was putting non
> >> my gi at the time to go to class and my wife laughed and said we wouldn't
> >> have time between the BJJ Aikido and JJJ. Meanwhile the two dogs were going
> >> spastic at the window. The look on the chicks face was classic.
> >
> >But I bet they sign up 25% new students or more.
>
> But do they keep them?
You never have a chance to try to keep students that never know you exist.
Assume for a second that their retention rate is no better then yours. If they
sign up 4 times the number of new students that you do, they'll still be growing
4 times *faster* then you.
Which would you rather have, 5% of $1.00 or 5% of $10,000?
> I like to compare my BJJ school to the
> University jud club. The BJJ school doesn't get that many new people and
> 'newbie' turnover is high. The judo clubs gets a TON of people each qtr,
> but very few come back next qtr.
The target market of the two is not nessasarily the same and, further, the
advertising is *way* different.
> Now the judo club has zero follow up, and my BJJ school's followup
> isn't that great either. But most people that start quit (for whatever
> reason). I think it's because they 'excepted something different.' Call
> it ego if you want, but they expected to get better (quickly), they
> expected to learn some super secret techniques, they expected a lot of
> 'training' not a lot of conditioning, and for judo esp they don't like the
> 'warmup' which drops most people.
> Also judo and BJJ are 'honest' arts. Both will tell you from the start
> that size and weight matter, strength matters, etc. People don't like to
> hear that either.
> Then there's the fun aspect. A fair number of people just don't find
> physically demanding work fun. Some would call it lazy.. but to each
> their own.
Plenty of fitness people out there too. Look for reasons to succeed, not
reasons to fail.
Kirk Lawson
>
> mcwe...@cs.cmu.edu (Matthew Weigel) wrote in message news:<bp0639$jd1$1...@wolfberry.srv.cs.cmu.edu>...
> > Kirk Lawson <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
> >
> > >And then what of Simco's complaints of watered down grappling in his book?
> >
> > I probably speak for a lot of people when I say "what are those claims,
> > exactly?"
>
Both, but more of a focus on grappling in general.
Badger North
<NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>> Well, that's because the Koreans turned the whole problem around.
>> Instead of being martial artists running a business, they are
>> businessmen selling you martial arts.
>
>What's wrong with that? You've got a product that you honestly believe that
>almost everyone could benefit from (you *do* believe that, don't you?). Why
>*not* go out and get the customers to realize that?
Actually, I don't believe everyone could benefit from what I do. I am
quite happy to *not* sign people up, because I know that ones I do
sign will stay with me for a long time.
For all they care, they could be selling salami sandwiches. Witness
all the bandwagon jumping for any and all fashions (tae-bo/cardio
karate being the most obvious). Look at the very obvious marketing
focus on soccer moms. It is a business selling a product, not martial
arts.
>> A couple of times a year I receive a flashy trade mag from YK Kim's
>> organization, and it's almost creepy to read it - extremely predatory.
>
>There's marketing and then there's Marketing. You can do aggressive marketing
>without being unethical.
These guys tapdance all over that line, fer sure. Seeing their
scripts for handling phone calls is funny.
Caller: "do you teach [insert any art here]"
Instructor: "yes, we teach Tae Kwon Do, and I'd like to personally
invite you to a free introductory class."
Caller: "but I wasn't asking about Tae Kwon Do, I was asking about
[insert any art here]."
Instructor: "Tae Kwon Do contains all the techniques of [insert any
art here] plus many more."
l k
> >Brazillians looked down on leg locks as 'cheap'. But then guys in
> >> sub-wrestling started using them to win and so did the MMA guys. Now BJJ
> >> could have said 'hey we're losing to leg locks so let's ban them.' But
> >> instead they said, well leg locks are legal and we don't know them that
> >> well, so I guess if we want to hang/compete at the top level we better
> >> learn them.'
> >
> >It's a more complicated case than just that. It's actually an example
> >of art vs. practicality, with a bit of social casting thrown into the
> >mix.
> >
> >"Brazilians" per say, did not look down on leg locks. Leg locks, ankle
> >locks and foot locks have long been a staple of Brazilian Luta Livre
> >(fr. "la lutte libre"). It was the Brazilian "BJJ players" who looked
> >down on leg locks, because Luta Livre was looked down on by BJJ
> >players as a ghetto art. Therefore its signature submissions was also
> >looked down upon. BJJ players long realized these finishing holds
> >worked, since Luta Livre players would use these holds against them in
> >cross-art matches. However, whenever a BJJ player would use one in a
> >tournament, he would be disparagingly referred to as a "suburbano" (in
> >reference to the ghetto). However, since Cumprido won a mundial over
> >Roleta with a pé-de-vaca, leg locks finally hit the mainstream in BJJ.
> >So you see, it took the support of a big name to overcome the
> >prejudice.
>
> Thats the version Ive heard.
> But Ive also heard Helio say that WAY back in BJJ leglocks were the rage.It
> doesnt sound right, but he said it.He went on and on about how BJJers today(he
> said this a few years back) were weak on leglocks(he might have said footlocks,
> not sure)
> GI
I thought it was because they're harder to train safely and more
easily lead to significant training injury -- especially those
twisting ones. Discouraged becasue one's being careful with his fellow
students, etc. Am I misinformed here?
Dan Winsor
>
> These guys tapdance all over that line, fer sure. Seeing their
> scripts for handling phone calls is funny.
>
> Caller: "do you teach [insert any art here]"
>
> Instructor: "yes, we teach Tae Kwon Do, and I'd like to personally
> invite you to a free introductory class."
>
> Caller: "but I wasn't asking about Tae Kwon Do, I was asking about
> [insert any art here]."
>
> Instructor: "Tae Kwon Do contains all the techniques of [insert any
> art here] plus many more."
Oooooh... I gotta try that with Greenoch and see what the guys says.
--
Dan Winsor
"It's all pseudo-code 'til it hits a compiler." - Matthew Weigel
Kirk Lawson
> Actually, I don't believe everyone could benefit from what I do.
Ummm... OK. [flipflipflip] I don't have a response to that in my script, sir.
> I am
> quite happy to *not* sign people up, because I know that ones I do
> sign will stay with me for a long time.
>
> For all they care, they could be selling salami sandwiches. Witness
> all the bandwagon jumping for any and all fashions (tae-bo/cardio
> karate being the most obvious). Look at the very obvious marketing
> focus on soccer moms. It is a business selling a product, not martial
> arts.
I contend that Martial Arts are a product.
> Instructor: "Tae Kwon Do contains all the techniques of [insert any
> art here] plus many more."
Cute. :P
Badger North
<NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>> Actually, I don't believe everyone could benefit from what I do.
>
>Ummm... OK. [flipflipflip] I don't have a response to that in my script, sir.
Prospective students get very confused when I tell them to check out
as many schools as possible before they decide to sign up with me.
>I contend that Martial Arts are a product.
Agreed. But if you are offering it strictly as a product, there are
temptations to make training easier/fun, reduce the wear and tear on
students, offer every belt you can find ("how many stripes do you have
on your camo belt?"), sell them shit they don't need, and tell them
whatever they want to hear to get them to sign up.
>> Instructor: "Tae Kwon Do contains all the techniques of [insert any
>> art here] plus many more."
>
>Cute. :P
And only one of many exciting tips.
Here's another:
Prospect: "thank you for the free lessons. I'll think about it and
get back to you."
Instructor: "What's to think about?"
Prospect: "Well, I need to make sure I can fit this into my budget."
Instructor: <hands Prospect a calculator> "You know how much a week
you make, right?"
Randy
> Friends I have previously worked out with in the past have
> come out to the club and tried a few classes and never come back. They
> prefer Kenpo because they say it's less work.
> I suppose...
maybe you should be beating up new people who come to visit your club and all.
your not-so-friend
Randy
Matthew Weigel
>Good on you for at least asking. Have you considered an Exit Questionnaire?
>Throw in a promise of a $5 coupon for Pizza if they fill it out complete with
>suggestions on what would make them stay.
But don't bother actually giving them the coupon... I mean, it's not
like you're going to get any more business from them anyway.
;-)
--
Matthew Weigel
hacker
uni...@cmu.edu
Matthew Weigel
>Which would you rather have, 5% of $1.00 or 5% of $10,000?
This assumes that, although the walk-in rate for different kinds of
advertising is different, the retention rate will be the same.
This just isn't so; and it's Vejita's argument/experience (mine too, by
and large) that the ones motivated to stick around are the ones who are
seeking you out. I mean, which would you rather have - 5% of $1.00 or
.0005% of $10,000.00?
*some* advertising will yield results, but I'd argue (and Pai Yili's old
article on martial arts school advertising supported this) that a lot of
kinds of advertising are money/effort down the drain for a martial arts
school.
Matthew Weigel
>Yes. The general public sees no real difference between Catch-as-Catch-Can and
>BJJ.
Nor do they see any difference between TKD and karate and kung fu, and
yet we talk about the three of them separately for the purpose of, say,
when/how they got watered down.
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> How do you know what they are teaching is any good. You
>> step onto the mat and you USE it.
>> Nothing is theorically or suppose to work.
>>
>Well, there was a teachers' clinic with a japanese sensei (all japan
>champion, world champion, etc, etc) and one coach who attended the clinic
>said that he said in japan they sometimes drill just one thing all year
>long. (Imagine the patience and faith in "theory" required for doing only
>kouchgari drill all year long without any mat time.) This type of teaching,
>it seems to me, is no different than other TMAs, such as Aikido, where all
>they do is drill. Yet, Judo is popular in Japan, obviously, and they are
>the best in the world in competitions.
Question: do you think this is standard practice for intro/newbie
students, or was it done more often for people that were already at a high
level? :)
Drills and mat time are key. Ideally I like to pick on position (not
one technique) and only work it for 4-6wks. But that's kind of hard to do
of late (people graduating, moving, or leaving).
Matthew Weigel
>I point to two interlinking phenomenon. First, is the spread in popularity of
>"grappling" and the attendant "watering down" of grappling (according to the
>testimony of grapplers). Second is the equation of "grappling" and
>"BJJ/GJJ/anythingelse" in the minds of the general public.
At some point Kirk, you're going to have to address my criticism of your
second claim, which is the only one I'm contesting. First, the general
public links grappling to BJJ no more strongly than it links kicking to
TKD (which, at its deepest, is generally "aren't they supposed to be the
best?", and at its weakest is generally "yeah, they do that"). Second,
the general public's perception has no bearing on the state of BJJ.
Matthew Weigel
>and call it something else
uh-huh.
>they woudl add a few Jiu-jitsu moves to their Karate program
OK...
So people are jumping on the grappling bandwagon. This does nothing to
reduce the quality of a rank earned in BJJ, and it does nothing to reduce
the quality of competition faced in BJJ tournaments.
This is a completely different complaint than "watered down." When WTF
TKD people are complaining about *WTF TKD* being "watered down," the
problem is not that some guy is buying a pretty uniform, paying rent,
and claiming to have a direct line on Korean martial arts passed down
from father to son since his grand-dad's time in France. They're
talking about *WTF TKD* training standards, ranking standards, and
pursuit of martial skill falling by the wayside.
>"...Now I am seeing something that is bothering me even more ... Students of
>Brazilian Jiu-jitsu are starting grappling tournaments without the sanctioning
>body of a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu federation or the leadership of experienced
>instructors.
This is the only gripe about BJJ, and it's closely aligned with "follow
the leader" politics (*especially* since he doesn't seem to have any
specific complaints, this is just an appeal to authority).
Badger North
Weigel) wrote:
>*some* advertising will yield results, but I'd argue (and Pai Yili's old
>article on martial arts school advertising supported this) that a lot of
>kinds of advertising are money/effort down the drain for a martial arts
>school.
I'd agree. With Yellow Pages ads, for instance, until you get to the
display ad size you will not be attracting too much business. You are
better off going for a smaller, cheaper listing until you are a big
enough fish to afford a large ad.
Hell, I'm getting rid of my Yellow Pages listing altogether.
'Vejita' S. Cousin
My point, and the take home message, is that the art grew and adapted to
stay competitive. Look at what happened when the Russians started
competeting in judo. Long verison short judo changed the rules to bring
judo tournaments back to 'what they should look like.' Don't
misunderstand me I love judo too. But I prefer the more relaxed rules of
BJJ (where I can take any grip and hold it for as long as I want, yes it
does lead to stalling ^_^).
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> >Geez, and people wonder why TKD is so popular. They run their businesses
>> >better!
>>
>> Well, that's because the Koreans turned the whole problem around.
>> Instead of being martial artists running a business, they are
>> businessmen selling you martial arts.
>
>What's wrong with that? You've got a product that you honestly believe that
>almost everyone could benefit from (you *do* believe that, don't you?). Why
>*not* go out and get the customers to realize that?
Actually I (and several others) do NOT believe that almost everyone
could benefit from our product. It's a self selection process, the people
that choose to study boxing and that choose to study ki-aikido are just
not the same.
I wish this wasn't the case but it is what it is. This isn't a product
like soda where you can create a market demand. There has to be a
'desire' to step into the ring/onto the mat and spar/fight other people.
Q: Does the art/sport instill this, or do you have to have it prior to
training?
I really don't know...
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>>Which would you rather have, 5% of $1.00 or 5% of $10,000?
>
>This assumes that, although the walk-in rate for different kinds of
>advertising is different, the retention rate will be the same.
>
>This just isn't so; and it's Vejita's argument/experience (mine too, by
>and large) that the ones motivated to stick around are the ones who are
>seeking you out. I mean, which would you rather have - 5% of $1.00 or
>.0005% of $10,000.00?
Exactly, this isn't toliet paper or soda. One art is NOT as good as
another (fit wise) for each person. The type of person that CHOOSES to do
boxing is different from the person that chooses to study ki-aikido.
Keeping students is a problem, but attracting the right students is
also hard. You asked 'do you think people could benifit from what we have
to offer at our school' and the truth is no. I think a lot of people just
won't like what we do. Not because we're 'snobs' but because most people
don't like: hard work, sweating, pain, hurting other people (it happens),
etc. And that's cool. Not everyone studies the martial arts to learn
'how to fight' most train for fun.
I train for fun, it's just that I find fighting to be fun :)
Now while there are people that don't expect to like something, try it,
and just fall in love with it; they are few and far between compared to
the people that sort of know what they expect from/desire a martial arts
school/club.
Our goal is not to cram as many warm bodies as possible into the
school, it's to promote BJJ. And while the latter follows from the
former, they are not the same thing. I believe that anyone that wants to
can learn BJJ/MMA, but very few people actually want to learn. Finding
these people is fairly hard.
And while it's not ideal, they really do tend to find us. Someone is
thinking 'hey MMA, BJJ, boxing, etc that looks cool let me check it out.'
Very rare is someone that interested in these arts and then decides out of
the blue from a poster to give it a try.
Again think of boxing. It's the not the first art/sport most people
think of when they decide to study a martial art. There's a
self-selection process at work. The difference is that everyone knows
boxing exists. While very very very few people know that BJJ exists.
But even if we had the money to saturate TV with ads about BJJ we would
still have a small target group of students that would want to 1) train,
2) continue training for more than 6mo.
Everything that you said about being more pro-active (hate that word)
is true. But this isn't really a product were you can create market
demand for it. People aren't going to want it because it's cool/hip etc
(at least not for every long). BTW - we do put up fliers at the local
universities.
I know whimps in BJJ and hard people in BJJ. But both share a certain
'something' that's lacking in the population at large.
Q: Does BJJ/judo/sambo/MMA/boxing/etc. teach this something, or do you
need to have it before you start training?
I really don't know (go back and forth on it)...
BillMahoney68
>
>>I mostly get guys who have done MMA training or at least grappling
>elsewhere.
>>I get almost no true newbies.
>>When i do they are friends of a member.
>>Maybe join at 20%.
>>MMA types maybe higher.
>>But I get zero "i saw your sign..." types.
>
> Friends I have previously worked out with in the past have
>come out to the club and tried a few classes and never come back. They
>prefer Kenpo because they say it's less work.
> I suppose...
Reality can only be absorbed in steps.
Maybe the jump between kempo and your school were too big.
There is a kempo school on every corner around here, slightly moreso than even
TKD.
A large amount of people I happen into away from martial arts circles have
taken some kempo classes at the YMCA or somewhere.
I think kempo to sub grappling is too much.
They gotta go to something like kyokushinkai or maybe judo before sub type
stuff.
Judo is hard on em, but at least they see gis, sensis, belts, stuff that makes
them confortable.
I dont know about your school,m but boxers and wrestlers find my school a
transition that is acceptable.
And then they see a karate school or even a bjj school and get confused.
I get lots of "why do they...?"
Karate types are stunned when they walk in.
On the wall they see this pic of me with the tumor on my head.A pic of this guy
that fought one of my guys bleeding like a stuck pig from the top of his head.
They see sweaty guys hitting bags, guiys boxing in the ring, a TV running
brazil vale tudo number 6 where faces are getting stopmed on.
Then they see the mucleheads in spandex rolling around on the mat often while
pounding each other.
I think they think they are about to get beat up.
I say "Hi, nice to meet you...I am bill, we train MMA here, walk around and
hang out if you want, if you wanna train the locker room is there, if you wanna
lift the weightroom is there, if you wanna watch, thats fine"
Then I walk off.
I used to pitch pitch pitch to newbies.
But few people nowadays remember that words mean things, so they dont listin.So
I dont bother anymore.
If they are a karate type they;ll be curious, ask about belts and stuff, then
leave and not come back.
I might one day start a newbie "WELCOME TO REALITY FOR BEGINNERS CLASS"
But it seems like work.So I never seem to bother.
Alot of MMA types dont let beginners watch MMA training, might be smart.
A friend still has a karate school, he teaches it.
Those guys leave, he gets into grappling shorts and his real students show up.
I sasl how he can stand teaching shit, he sez "It sucks...it really does"
Id feel like a phoney, but he taught karate first, so I guess it is normal to
him.
He goes on and on about his years trying tyo get his MANY karate students to
train BJJ and thaiboxing with him, and the finincial hard times it brought him.
Now he is content to keep his pools of students far apart.
When he shows you his 2 buisness cards it is riotous.
Same school name, same teacher name...
Ones like "learn the spiritual path" it shows him bowing to a child.
The others like "Learn to kick ass, it shows a typical Vale tudo type logo.
my buddy from brazil taught BJJ down there at alliance.He watched a kung fu
class the other day.
His reaction was priceless.
In a word ...disbeilef....maybe incredulous.
Gi
TK Sung
"'Vejita' S. Cousin" <sco...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:bp0rh5$kda$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
>
> Question: do you think this is standard practice for intro/newbie
> students, or was it done more often for people that were already at a high
> level? :)
>
America, newbies would leave if they are forced to do only one thing for the
whole year! (It was Okano sensei's clinic I think, and I only heard it
second hand.) I would've questioned such method 6 months ago, but I'm now
learning the value of patience and focusing on improving my techniques step
by step, rather than precipitously engaging in competitive practice to
"prove" that they work. It seems to me that people who move to comp class
too soon end up making slower progress than they would've if they laid the
solid foundation first.
678
> [snip]
>
>
> But do they keep them? I like to compare my BJJ school to the
> University jud club. The BJJ school doesn't get that many new people and
> 'newbie' turnover is high. The judo clubs gets a TON of people each qtr,
> but very few come back next qtr.
> In both cases rention is low. I think it's because of the hard work,
> physical demands and getting 'beaten' by smaller guys (and in judo women).
> BJJ also costs a lot more to train.
> [snip]
There's another problem with universtiy club: students have exams to
write. And they graduate. Then they leave for jobs or wherever they have
to go to move on with their live. I was with a university club before
and so that's my observation.
Regardless, it takes discipline for one to exercise regularly.
Similarly, it takes discipline to stay in martial arts for life.
678
> 678 wrote:
>
>
>>I would say it's always like that in martial arts: only a small portion
>>of the students will stay.
>>
>>Then of this small portion of students, a certain number of them train
>>hard and fight hard, and another small number of them just train for
>>fun, then there are another small number of them train for their entire
>>life. Most of the students though will quit martial arts at some point
>>in their life time because, well, there are simply more important
>>commitments and other fun things to do in one's life. Just a fact of
>>life.
>
>
> That doesn't stop them from engaging in any number of other time consuming
> hobbies. Everything from LAN Parties, to surfing the web, to watching every
> last HS, College, and Pro football game in season on Cable and Sat.
>
True. But the thing is, as pointed out somewhere else, those who stay in
martial art are likly those who already are very interested in it no
matter what; they do it not because they have a need for it but they
just like to do it. So martial art practice comes first over anything
else. For other students, it's the other way round.
>
>>Perhaps that's why, where I live, most martial art instructors
>>have day time jobs.
>
>
> No. They have day jobs because, for whatever reason, they do not run their
> School like a business. Some think that it perverts the Art, some just don't
> know how, and other don't want to do the non-MA part of business (billing
> sucks). Whatever the reason. It's possible to live off of a Martial Arst
> school as your *job*. It's just that most don't.
OK, so they should go and do market research first I suppose. Guess
what? The result may show most would do better keeping their day job.
However, perhaps there's one way to enhance the chance of living off a
martial art school as your job: offer kids classes.
Charles McKey
dougee...@canada.REMOVE.com says...
>
> Friends I have previously worked out with in the past have
> come out to the club and tried a few classes and never come back.
>
Doing groundwork with someone with a fair degree of proficiency is a
real eye opener - I come from a predominantly striking style, and rolled
with a guy who'd done a little groundwork at one time. The rapidity
with which things went totally wrong for me, and the way that doing what
seemed to be an escape actually got me in *worse* trouble was a real
wake up call. People who can walk away from that and think, "Hmm, well
never mind, I'll just use my eye jab/elbow to the groin/ninja touch of
death if anyone takes me to the ground" amaze me.
Karim Rashad
> Good on you for at least asking. Have you considered an Exit
> Questionnaire? Throw in a promise of a $5 coupon for Pizza if they fill it
> out complete with suggestions on what would make them stay.
No, no, the correct thing to offer is half-price lesson coupons for your
own school that they can give to their friends!
--
Karim Rashad <remove SPAMFREE: krashad at SPAMorbisFREEuk dot com>
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
678 <neve...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>There's another problem with universtiy club: students have exams to
>write. And they graduate. Then they leave for jobs or wherever they have
>to go to move on with their live. I was with a university club before
>and so that's my observation.
Yeah. The typical university club consists of an assload of beginners,
a few intermediate students, and a handful of more advanced ones who
wind up as instructors (typically those who trained before they came
to university). Most beginners only stick it out for one or two semester,
and those few that last for the duration of their studies then usually
vanish due to getting a job somewhere else. So it goes.
--
Leif Kjønnøy, Geek of a Few Trades. http://www.pvv.org/~leifmk
Disclaimer: Do not try this at home.
Void where prohibited by law.
Batteries not included.
Pierre Honeyman
>
> I contend that Martial Arts are a product.
Martial Arts are a product insofar as the teaching of them is a
service that can be done for money. However, they are not a product
insofar as being a "commodity offered for sale". In my objection, I
specifically object to the commonly accepted definition of a "product"
as a "commodity".
Martial arts, IME, require certain non-monetary investments in order
to be taught and learned. It is not possible to go to the open market
and "buy" a martial art.
When certain groups, TKD being one (but far from the only one), "sell"
martial arts through the use of "guaranteed black belt" contracts and
other nonsense they cease to be martial arts, but they are products.
Pierre
keith
> keith wrote:
>
> > I think it still is, at my club, I'd estimate only 15% or so of people
> > who try out a class ever come back again, and it's not like my club is
> > unusually hardcore or nothin'.
>
> That's not unusual for most Martial Arts. Ask around. The difference is (I
> suspect) on how many try it out in the first place. If you've only got 2 people
> tying it out this month, even a 50% loss hits hard.
>
> Peace favor your sword (IH)
> --
> "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
> of their use."
> -Achille Marozzo, 1536
I'd estimate we've had about 20 people come in and try a class since
July (being right accross the street from a tech. school gives the
school a nice population to draw from right next door), and I see 2 of
those guys training. It's been an awfully long time since I did TKD,
but I rember having a much higher retention rate of new students.
I think I will ask around, now I'm pretty curious to compare w/ the
others.
keith
Batman
>
>But I get zero "i saw your sign..." types.
Maybe you need a better sign.
-jeff (IH)