Ninjutsu - Which is REAL Ninjutsu?
Julian Frost
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 Iron...@NindoRyu.com wrote:
> Interesting thread , sort of... ;-}
>
> If you're interested in seeing NinJutsu that is not politically connected
> to the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan mess, but stems from the same roots,
> you have two choices:
From the Nindo Ryu home page:
"Carlos R. Febres was born in Salinas, Puerto Rico. He starts his
martial arts education at age 12 under master Bill Solano(Shorin
Ryu & Yoshu Ryu). He studied Jujutsu under Moses Powell and
Okinawan Kobudo under Kimo Wo.
In 1979, Febres founded his system, Nindo Ryu Bujutsu. A combined
system."
I don't see where "Nindo Ryu Bujutsu" stems from the same roots as those
claimed by the other organizations you mentioned. How did your founder
introduce Ninjutsu to Puerto Rico, when, if the training biography is
complete, he has not received any instruction in Ninjutsu?
"In 1991, for the second time, a promotion in Togakure Ryu was
offer and Febres refuse it again."
It is my understanding that individual ranks in Togakure Ryu are not
awarded. If Hatsumi is the current headmaster of the Togakure ryu, and he
doesn't award ranks, who "offered" your founder this rank?
Why does the terminology used on the "Techniques" portion of your page
come from Aikido (Nikyo, Kotegaeshi etc), not Ninjutsu?
Just curious.
Julian
--
Eric Weil
Julian Frost wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 Iron...@NindoRyu.com wrote:
>
>> Interesting thread , sort of... ;-}
>>
>> If you're interested in seeing NinJutsu that is not politically connected
>> to the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan mess, but stems from the same roots,
>> you have two choices:
>
>From the Nindo Ryu home page:
>
> "Carlos R. Febres was born in Salinas, Puerto Rico. He starts his
> martial arts education at age 12 under master Bill Solano(Shorin
> Ryu & Yoshu Ryu). He studied Jujutsu under Moses Powell and
> Okinawan Kobudo under Kimo Wo.
>
> In 1979, Febres founded his system, Nindo Ryu Bujutsu. A combined
> system."
>
>I don't see where "Nindo Ryu Bujutsu" stems from the same roots as those
>claimed by the other organizations you mentioned. How did your founder
>introduce Ninjutsu to Puerto Rico, when, if the training biography is
>complete, he has not received any instruction in Ninjutsu?
Exactly Julian, no connection what so ever!
> "In 1991, for the second time, a promotion in Togakure Ryu was
> offer and Febres refuse it again."
>
>It is my understanding that individual ranks in Togakure Ryu are not
>awarded. If Hatsumi is the current headmaster of the Togakure ryu, and he
>doesn't award ranks, who "offered" your founder this rank?
Right again Julian, the only people I know of who have rank (Menkyo Kaiden)
in Togakure ryu Ninjutsu from Hatsumi Soke are Manaka Shihan (Jinenkan),
Tanemura Shihan (Genbukan), Ishizuka Shihan, Seno Shihan, Oguri Shihan, and
later Noguchi Shihan. Maybe Kobayashi Shihan, but he is no longer training.
Awardence of rank could be attained in Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu (Budo
Taijutsu), Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu, Jinenkan Kobudo, but are not official
Menkyo Kaiden licenses, which is the only traditional rank in that ryu. The
common rank is an amalgamation rank of the various arts included in the
organization.
All 3 organizations have a amalgamation of techniques from the various
schools to make up there curriculum, maybe this is another reason why
Hatsumi Soke changed the overall descriptive name of his arts to Budo
Taijutsu, implying more than just Ninjutsu. Example, Jutaijutsu (Jujutsu),
Kosshijutsu, Koppojutsu, Kenjutsu, Bojutsu, etc. Weapons and Taijutsu, all
balled into one. As of current I know that Hatsumi Soke, Tanemura Sensei,
and Manaka Sensei will not award a Menkyo Kaiden to any Non-Japanese
students, so don't hold your breath :-) You have to be Japanese to receive
it!
As far as rank for Mr.. Febres, if it was from Tanemura Sensei, it would
have
been honorary, meaning not 100% official, but connected to the organization.
He has done this with others, as has Hatsumi Soke. Its a Japanese thing! I
contacted a friend in the Genbukan and asked if Carlos ever achieved rank in
Genbukan and he said, 'no'! It is very easy to find out also, all you have
to do is contact a high ranked Genbukan member or write to Tanemura Sensei
himself. Carlos has attended at least 1 or more Ninja Summits held by
Higuchi Sensei in Ohio. Higuchi himself has the honorary rank of 5th Dan
from
Hatsumi Soke. But he is no longer affiliated with the Bujinkan Dojo, even
though he still uses the name. So to use that as a connection or affiliation
is weak. And if Higuchi Sensei was the one who offered the rank, well it
would be wrong since he has honorary rank himself. Why not go straight to
the source?
Every martial organization has politics and if you ignore them you will be
learning one of the lessons of the martial arts.
Its quite clear if you want to study Ninjutsu, you can pick between Bujinkan
(Hatsumi, current Soke of Togakure ryu Ninjutsu, Kumogakure ryu Ninjutsu,
Gyokushin ryu Ninjutsu), Genbukan (Tanemura, Menkyo Kaiden in Togakure
ryu), Jinenkan (Manaka, Menkyo Kaiden in Togakure ryu). Thats all there is
folks. Do the research. If you want Karate do a traditional Okinawan ryu.
Aikido, you have Aiki-kai, Tomiki, etc. Aiki-kai being the source.
>Why does the terminology used on the "Techniques" portion of your page
>come from Aikido (Nikyo, Kotegaeshi etc), not Ninjutsu?
And also very similar to some of Shidoshi Hayes program! Take a little of
this, take a little of that, mix it up and pass it off as Ninjutsu. To the
general public it will look legit, but to people with other martial
knowledge and who has done research on Ninjustu (Julian), they can see the
fallacy! Ronald Duncan has done the same thing.
>Just curious.
As are others :-)
Eric
Bujinkan Long Island Dojo
Wild Bill
Julian Frost <jfr...@odaiko.ss.uci.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 Iron...@NindoRyu.com wrote:
>
>> Interesting thread , sort of... ;-}
>>
>> If you're interested in seeing NinJutsu that is not politically connected
>> to the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan mess, but stems from the same roots,
>> you have two choices:
>
>From the Nindo Ryu home page:
>
> "Carlos R. Febres was born in Salinas, Puerto Rico. He starts his
> martial arts education at age 12 under master Bill Solano(Shorin
> Ryu & Yoshu Ryu). He studied Jujutsu under Moses Powell and
> Okinawan Kobudo under Kimo Wo.
>
> In 1979, Febres founded his system, Nindo Ryu Bujutsu. A combined
> system."
>
>I don't see where "Nindo Ryu Bujutsu" stems from the same roots as those
>claimed by the other organizations you mentioned. How did your founder
>introduce Ninjutsu to Puerto Rico, when, if the training biography is
>complete, he has not received any instruction in Ninjutsu?
>
> offer and Febres refuse it again."
>
>It is my understanding that individual ranks in Togakure Ryu are not
>awarded. If Hatsumi is the current headmaster of the Togakure ryu, and he
>doesn't award ranks, who "offered" your founder this rank?
>
>come from Aikido (Nikyo, Kotegaeshi etc), not Ninjutsu?
>
>
>Julian
HI Julian:-)
I think Julian and my long and protracted argument about Bujinkan a
couple of years ago was the first meaningful exchange on the subject on
this list. Our disagreements prompted research on both of our parts. I
thank Julian again for his objective , if <slightly> opinionated
approach, and for his undeniable honest and forthrightness.
There seem to be two main schools of wannabee ninjutsu.
1. those which are not Koga ryu, but are not affiliated with the only Iga
lineage ryu ha still taught.
2. Koga ryu.
the second is in the same catagory as the Roc, Hyppogryph and Pegasus.
You can believe they exist if you wish, and hide behind the "hidden
secrets" thing, but that still doesn't change historical reality. The
last Koga soke and ALL of his uchideshi died in the early 60s in a crash.
Unless someone has a VERY good medium, Ronald Duncan, Ashida Kim and the
rest are all full of shit, period.
As to the first, this is essentially like saying you are teaching an aiki
style that is "not connected politically" to Ueshiba Osensei, and or
Takeda Sokaku, Ishitiani, Marakami, etc. Also, there IS NO NINJUTSU OF
OKINAWAN lineage. Soken Hohan, Shimabuku, Kise, Kuda, Kishaba,et al would
throttle you if you mentioned ninjutsu and Okinawan/Ryukyu arts in
the same sentence! (and Soken Osensei would reach up from his grave to do
so!)
So far asI know , the only people with menkyo from Hatsumi soke in
Togakure ryu are Manaka sensei, Tanemura sensei, Ishizuka sensei, and I
think either Kobayashi or Oguri sensei (although I think Oguri's menkyo
is in Takagi Yoshin ryu jutaijutsu, and Kobayashi's in Koto ryu
koppojutsu). Nouguchi sensei has menkyo as well in a specific ryu, but
again I do not think it was in Togakure.
Furthermore, all marketing schemes aside, wewho DO train in an Iga
lineage ryu do NOT study ninjutsu per se, and more than Julian studies
Samurai combat. We train in ninpo taijutsu, or more properly for the
BUjinkan , budo taijutsu, the basic fighting art from Togakure ryu, along
with the techniques from 6 of the 9 ryu ha of the Bujinkan. None of us ,
aside from the shihan in Japan mentioned above , hold rank in any
ninjutsu or samurai art, but in the Bujinkan, which , as the "Divine
Warrior House" contains these arts.
It is a mistatement to say we study ninjutsu, but part of what we do
study is , in effect the ONLY legit ninjutsu taught anywhere.
Thanks,
Wild Bill
Aiki1
Just curious - I was under the impression that somewhere within the
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, there was Ninjutsu taught, and had been
for a long time, but inaccessible to Westerners. I though I read about
this from Don Dreager (sp?) or something. I remember seeing pictures from
it a long time ago. Is this not true?
--
Remove "NoSpam" from address to eMail
Jeff Perry
howdy.
thought i would jump in and add my 3 or 4 cents to the little posting.
i'm just wondering what our bujinkan friends can tell me about konigun
ninjutsu? since you all seem to have knowledge on every "known" ninja
ryu, do tell me about this one. no, it has no affiliation with the
supposedly nonexistant koga ryu. do please let me know. thanks.
Jeff Perry
Kendo guy9
>Just curious - I was under the impression that somewhere within the
>Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, there was Ninjutsu taught, and had been
>for a long time, but inaccessible to Westerners. I though I read about
>this from Don Dreager (sp?) or something. I remember seeing pictures from
>it a long time ago. Is this not true?
>
>
i believe that the Katori shinto ryu and several other ryuha DID infact teach
"ninjutsu" techniques.i believe what happened to many of them was need for the
skills of "ninjutsu" died out and thus the schools either stopped teaching
them, or stopped activly teaching them. but i don't know for sure.
Gambatte!!
Chris :)
LEESENSEI
>Just curious - I was under the impression that somewhere within the
>Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, there was Ninjutsu taught, and had been
>for a long time, but inaccessible to Westerners. I though I read about
>this from Don Dreager (sp?) or something. I remember seeing pictures from
>it a long time ago. Is this not true?
>
>
According to Don Draeger, who was a student of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto
Ryu, as well as being one of the foremost western researchers into traditional
Japanese martial arts, the TSKSR did teach elements of ninjutsu. this is not
relally that unusual, as ninjutsu was a part of many Bugei traditions. What a
lot of people forget is that most of the people that we refer to as ninja
today, were actually Samurai. There were many ryu that would have had Ninjutsu
(stealth)methods as part of their training.
On the other hand, there were not that many ryu that could actually be
considered Ninjutsu Ryu. Of the thousands of bugei ryu that used to exist,
there are now only a relative handful that are now still in existence. Many of
these schools have changed from Jutsu systems to Do forms and have thus lost
much of their combat emphasis and technique. With this in mind, it is not
suprising that the only ninjutsu ryu that are still in existence were the ones
that were passed down by Soke Toshitsugu Takamatsu. If it were not for the
work of Soke Masaaki Hatsumi, it is posssible that these ryu would have died
out as well.
It is considered true that the Koga Ryu did survive to the sixties, but as Bill
Johnson already said, the last remaining Soke and all of his students died
tragically in an accident and the ryu is officially considered dead.
A lot of people are under the mistaken oppinion that those in the Bujinkan
attack other ninjutsu groups for political reasons. This is not really true,
as there are many of us that would be delighted to find any other legitimate
ninjutsu ryu or Bugei ryu that claims to teach ninjutsu. By Legitimate, I
mean any ryu that can trace it's training and techniques back to the Samurai
age in Japan (pre meiji era). Actually as it turns out, none of the "other"
ninjutsu groups such as the Nindo ryu, can even trace their art back to Japan.
Personaly I believe in giving others the benefit of the doubt, and am glad to
hear about their arts and their lineage. It is just that no one has yet been
able to answer the simplest of questions about their Ninjutsu history.
Now as Bill pointed out, Ninjutsu is only a small part of the training in the
Bujinkan Dojo. Out of nine Koryu traditions that Masaaki Hatsumi is Soke of,
only three are ninjutsu traditions. Of these three, the most complete is the
Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. The other ryu are all old Samurai Bugei traditions.
While we can say that there are no other proven Ninjutsu ryu outside of the
Bujinkan, there are several other Koryu traditions that are still found in
Japan. We in the Bujinkan certainly respect these old traditions, and we
welcome the chance to share ideas and training. Most of the other Koryu
Traditions that are taught now are what would be considered classical martial
arts, in that they are really more of a historical collection of techniques and
the emphasis is on preserving rather than training in these arts as a living
tradition. There are a few like the Bujinkan that still train in these old
arts with an emphasis on combat and defense reality.
The Bujinkan Dojo has had to go through quite a bit of inspection to verify
it's claims.
Soke Hatsumi is the considered to be the worlds leading authority on the art of
Ninjutsu. He is listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten as Soke of Togakure Ryu and
other Ryu ha, He recently appeared in the Koryu Hiden Magazine, He has lectured
on Ninjutsu to the current Emperor of Japan, He has been the adviser on many
Japanese Films, books and Telivision Programs. He has authored several books
on Ninjutsu and other Bugei arts. He is acknowleged as an authority on
ninjutsu by such reputable researchers as Don Draeger, Stephen Turnbull, Andrew
Adams, and others. He is internationally acknowledged, and travels around the
world each year to train his thousands of students in and outside of Japan.
Just about every thing that is known about Ninjutsu in the west can be traced
to the work of Hatsumi Soke. He was featured in the west as a master of
Ninjutsu as far back as 1961, in an issue of Argossy magazine. Even in Ian
Flemming's novel "You Only Live Twice" The Togakure ryu is featured.
Incidently, Hatsumi Soke was also the technical advisor for the film version.
Hatsumi Soke was also the advisor for the well respected film "Shinobi No
Mono" Which in my oppinion, is easily the most accurate portrayal of Ninjutsu
that has ever been put on film.
The reason that I mention all of this is that none of the other so called
ninjutsu ryu can even prove that their "tradition" dates back to even the
sixties. Much less trace their lineage back to pre edo period. By contrast,
the Togakure Ryu traces back for thirty four generations. These people, like
the Nindo Ryu would not even know what Ninjutsu is, without the work of Hatsumi
Soke.
I hope that this clears up a few misconceptions.
Take care,
LeeDrew
Birmingham Bujinkan Dojo
LEESENSEI
>i'm just wondering what our bujinkan friends can tell me about konigun
>ninjutsu? since you all seem to have knowledge on every "known" ninja
>ryu, do tell me about this one. no, it has no affiliation with the
>supposedly nonexistant koga ryu. do please let me know. thanks.
>
>Jeff Perry
Well Jeff, perhaps you would be willing to tell us about your style. Like I
said, I am always open to discussion. What is your schools linneage and
history? Who founded your style and when? What are some of the major Katas
and wazas of your style? What specifically makes your style a ninjutsu ryu?
What documentaion do you have to offer? What connection to Japan can you
offer? Is there anyone in Japan that can acknowledge your existence and
historical legacy? If you can answer these questions and substantiate the
information, then we would be delighted to learn more about your art. I am
perfectly ready to welcome you to the discussions.
Please let me know your answers to these questions as soon as possible.
Lee Drew
Birmingham Bujinkan Dojo
Iron...@nindoryu.com
>Just curious - I was under the impression that somewhere within the
>Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, there was Ninjutsu taught, and had been
>for a long time, but inaccessible to Westerners. I though I read about
>this from Don Dreager (sp?) or something. I remember seeing pictures from
>it a long time ago. Is this not true?
Ironhawk: There are many Ryu that co-opted ninjutsu techniques, including
Daito and Goshin Ryu.
>
>
According to Don Draeger, who was a student of the Tenshin Shoden Katori
Shinto Ryu, as well as being one of the foremost western researchers into
traditional Japanese martial arts, the TSKSR did teach elements of
ninjutsu. this is not relally that unusual, as ninjutsu was a part of
many Bugei traditions. What a lot of people forget is that most of the
people that we refer to as ninja today, were actually Samurai. There
were many ryu that would have had Ninjutsu (stealth)methods as part of
their training.
Ironhawk: Thank you for proving once and for all that we have every
right to exist as we are... You're work is much appreciated... We would
also like to thank Shoto Tanemura, Higuchi Sensei, and Master Hector
Rodriguez for contributing to our Bugei.
On the other hand, there were not that many ryu that could actually be
considered Ninjutsu Ryu. Of the thousands of bugei ryu that used to
exist, there are now only a relative handful that are now still in
existence. Many of these schools have changed from Jutsu systems to Do
forms and have thus lost much of their combat emphasis and technique.
Ironhawk: Interesting that this is only a one-way street in your mind...
With this in mind, it is not suprising that the only ninjutsu ryu that
are still in existence were the ones that were passed down by Soke
Toshitsugu Takamatsu. If it were not for the work of Soke Masaaki
Hatsumi, it is posssible that these ryu would have died out as well.
It is considered true that the Koga Ryu did survive to the sixties, but
as Bill Johnson already said, the last remaining Soke and all of his
students died tragically in an accident and the ryu is officially
considered dead.
A lot of people are under the mistaken oppinion that those in the
Bujinkan attack other ninjutsu groups for political reasons. This is not
really true, as there are many of us that would be delighted to find any
other legitimate ninjutsu ryu or Bugei ryu that claims to teach
ninjutsu. By Legitimate, I mean any ryu that can trace it's training and
techniques back to the Samurai age in Japan (pre meiji era).
Ironhawk: Like it or not - that's political, and more than slightly
racist. I guess since we are presuming that a Caucasian is stating this
attitude - it's acceptable. Maybe the 'Uncle Tom' syndrome can cross
national boundries...
Actually as it turns out, none of the "other" ninjutsu groups such as the
Nindo ryu, can even trace their art back to Japan. Personaly I believe in
giving others the benefit of the doubt, and am glad to hear about their
arts and their lineage. It is just that no one has yet been able to
answer the simplest of questions about their Ninjutsu history.
Rodriguez, Higuchi, Tanemura (to a lesser extent)
Now as Bill pointed out, Ninjutsu is only a small part of the training in
the Bujinkan Dojo. Out of nine Koryu traditions that Masaaki Hatsumi is
Soke of, only three are ninjutsu traditions. Of these three, the most
complete is the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. The other ryu are all old Samurai
Bugei traditions.
Ironhawk: Bujinkan & Genbukan can do it, but a Puerto Rican can't -
sounds like a double-standard to me...
While we can say that there are no other proven Ninjutsu ryu outside of
the Bujinkan, there are several other Koryu traditions that are still
found in Japan. We in the Bujinkan certainly respect these old
traditions, and we welcome the chance to share ideas and training. Most
of the other Koryu Traditions that are taught now are what would be
considered classical martial arts, in that they are really more of a
historical collection of techniques and the emphasis is on preserving
rather than training in these arts as a living tradition. There are a
few like the Bujinkan that still train in these old arts with an emphasis
on combat and defense reality.
Ironhawk: Nindo Ryu was created to revive that empahasis, without the
politics that plague Bujinkan/Bujinden, Genbukan/KJJF, and Jinenkan.
Febres was around when all of that started, and stayed away. That was
why he refused rank under Higuchi, and a later rank test offered in 1991
- an offer in which it was stated that he could test to HachiDan for $100
per Dan in front of Hatsumi at a Tai Kai... Co-optation is a good
ninjutsu strategy, but it didn't work in this case. That fact is
probably the real reason why everyone istrying to disprove the legitimacy
of our existance. Too late......
The Bujinkan Dojo has had to go through quite a bit of inspection to
verify it's claims.
Ironhawk: We're opening ourselves to inspection in our Tour of Force. We
aim to show that our Bugei is valid - not the same as anyone else - just
another valid interpretation. Judge the techniques - NOT THE POLITICS.
Soke Hatsumi is the considered to be the worlds leading authority on the
art of Ninjutsu. He is listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten as Soke of
Togakure Ryu and other Ryu ha, He recently appeared in the Koryu Hiden
Magazine, He has lectured on Ninjutsu to the current Emperor of Japan, He
has been the adviser on many Japanese Films, books and Telivision
Programs. He has authored several books on Ninjutsu and other Bugei
arts. He is acknowleged as an authority on ninjutsu by such reputable
researchers as Don Draeger, Stephen Turnbull, Andrew Adams, and others.
He is internationally acknowledged, and travels around the world each
year to train his thousands of students in and outside of Japan.
Just about every thing that is known about Ninjutsu in the west can be
traced to the work of Hatsumi Soke. He was featured in the west as a
master of Ninjutsu as far back as 1961, in an issue of Argossy magazine.
Even in Ian Flemming's novel "You Only Live Twice" The Togakure ryu is
featured. Incidently, Hatsumi Soke was also the technical advisor for the
film version. Hatsumi Soke was also the advisor for the well respected
film "Shinobi No Mono" Which in my oppinion, is easily the most accurate
portrayal of Ninjutsu that has ever been put on film.
The reason that I mention all of this is that none of the other so
called ninjutsu ryu can even prove that their "tradition" dates back to
even the sixties. Much less trace their lineage back to pre edo period.
By contrast, the Togakure Ryu traces back for thirty four generations.
These people, like the Nindo Ryu would not even know what Ninjutsu is,
without the work of Hatsumi Soke.
Ironhawk: Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai fits all of your criteria, except
connection to you. So what? Although Hatsumi may be considered the
world's expert, that doesn't mean that he is the ONLY one that can tell
whether or not we practice ninjutsu tactics and strategy. Shoto Tanemura
has proven that. He's even co-opted folks from Koga Ryu Ninjutsu into
Genbukan Ninpo. Looks like your arguments are suffering in the light of
fact.
Ironhawk: Bujinkan people have this slippery trick of pointing out the
broad strokes of the Bugei manifestation when it suits them, and then
when we show ourselves to have that approach, you slip into the specifics
of political connection to Bujinkan. What a bunch of malarky! Just open
up and take a look at us - hosting a stop on the Tour Of Force IS FREE -
something I'm sure that Bujinkan people are still getting used to...
It's even FREE to look! http://www.NindoRyu.com/newsite/tof98.htm
We'll be updating a list of stops on the Tour in the coming weeks.
Houston
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Richard Jones
. What a bunch of malarky! Just open
>up and take a look at us - hosting a stop on the Tour Of Force IS FREE -
>something I'm sure that Bujinkan people are still getting used to...
>
>It's even FREE to look! http://www.NindoRyu.com/newsite/tof98.htm
>We'll be updating a list of stops on the Tour in the coming weeks.
>
read for a long long time !
--
Rich the Critch
skate till you drop... of old age
LEESENSEI
Okay, lets try this again. I had just about gotten through typing a long and
thorugh reply to Ironhorse@Nindoryu 's post when I was knocked offline and lost
it all. (I am really starting to hate using AOL) I am too tired right now to
go through the whole thing again, but let me make a few short points now and I
will get back to making a more proper reply later
LeeDrew.>There
>were many ryu that would have had Ninjutsu (stealth)methods as part of
>their training.
>
>Ironhawk: Thank you for proving once and for all that we have every
>right to exist as we are... You're work is much appreciated... We would
>also like to thank Shoto Tanemura, Higuchi Sensei, and Master Hector
>Rodriguez for contributing to our Bugei.
>
Actually I have proven nothing of the sort. I merely said that many
traditional historical Japanese Bugei Ryu did have Ninjutsu training as part of
their curriculum.
This has nothing to do with Nindo Ryu as it is not connected in any way with
any Japanese Koryu Bugei tradtion. If an art has this connection and can
verify it, they are legitimate, if they can not verify such a connection to
the Historical Bugei, then they are not legitimate. I am using the example of
the Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu as a counterpoint to the claims of the Nindo Ryu.
The TSKSR is a well known Japanese Budo Ryu. In fact it is the oldest
documented Samurai school in Japan. The History of the TSKSR is well known and
documented. It has been accepted by all of the top Martial scholars in Japan
and can certainly prove it's connection to Japans Samurai eras and can trace
it's linneage back for several generations before the Edo period. By contrast,
the Nindo ryu can not show any connection even to present day Japan. It has no
documentaition or any kind of independent verification that it has any
connection whatsoever to the the Samurai arts that we refer to as ninjutsu. In
short there is no comparison to the two styles. My saying that the TSKSR is a
legitimate Koryu Bugei tradition with a small section of ninjutsu certainly
does nothing to bolster the claims of the Nindo ryu. What it does show is that
I am certainly willing to accept the fact that there may be other ryu that also
taught elements of Ninjutsu, as long as they can substantiate such claims as
well as the Bujinkan, or the TSKSR can.
Lee Drew :>This is not
>really true, as there are many of us that would be delighted to find any
>other legitimate ninjutsu ryu or Bugei ryu that claims to teach
>ninjutsu. By Legitimate, I mean any ryu that can trace it's training and
>techniques back to the Samurai age in Japan (pre meiji era).
>Ironhawk: Like it or not - that's political, and more than slightly
>racist. I guess since we are presuming that a Caucasian is stating this
>attitude - it's acceptable. Maybe the 'Uncle Tom' syndrome can cross
>national boundries...
I am afraid that I do not know what this reply is supposed to mean. Since when
is saying the simple truth being political, or an "Uncle Tom" ? I suppose you
have an explanation of how you can be a master of a Historical Japanese Art
without having a connection with Japan or it's history?
I will use an analogy that I tried to use the last time that i tried to reply
to your post. Suppose that there was a Japanese Gentleman that had studied a
bit of karate and a little bit of judo, and then suddenly announced to the
world that he was a master of Jim Bowies school of knife fighting. Don't you
think that people would want to know what his credentials are for claiming to
be a part of America's history. Don't you think that it would be reasonable
for others to ask what his connection to America is? Wouldn't he have to show
some reasonable connection to Col. Bowie and his history? Wouldn't he be
expected to be able to demonstrate Col. Bowies legitimate strategies and
historically verifiable techniques? Wouldn't you think that such a connection
would be known and acknowledged by Bowies family and the people that have
researched his legacy? History is history, you can't just make things up and
claim legitimacy.
I don't dispute that what you are doing may be a legitimate or even
effective martial art, it is just that it is not a historicaly verifiable Koryu
tradtion.
>Ironhawk: Bujinkan & Genbukan can do it, but a Puerto Rican can't -
>sounds like a double-standard to me...
It is not a double standard at all. These schools can produce evidence of a
connection to Japan and the historical tradition of Ninjutsu. The Nindo ryu
cannot produce such evidence. If you could, then I for one would say that you
would be just as legitimate.
>Ironhawk: Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai fits all of your criteria, except
>connection to you. So what? Although Hatsumi may be considered the
>world's expert, that doesn't mean that he is the ONLY one that can tell
>whether or not we practice ninjutsu tactics and strategy. Shoto >Tanemura has
proven that.
I can't speak for Tanemura Sensei, though I am sure that his students, such as
Brian Hodges and John lindsey will be very glad to when they see this. In any
case, once again, I don't care if you are connected to the Bujinkan, Genbukan,
Jinenkan, or not. The fact is that you are not connected to Japan or it's
historical tradtion of Ninjutsu. There is only one non Japanese person that is
recognized as a legitimate head of ANY Japanese Koryu Tradition, and I will
give you a hint, It is not Carlos Febres or any one with the Nindo ryu.
As I said, you may teach what you consider to be ninutsu tactics or Samurai
philosophy, or whatever. the simple fact is that you have no real connection
to these arts. If you wanted to say that your system was based on these
philosophies or ideals,and were your own modern interpretation of these old
school systems, then i would say great, more power to you and have fun with
what you are doing. But if you say that what you are doing Is in fact, the
same as these old tradtioins, then I am afraid that you are mistaken and lying
to yourself and everyone else.
I hope that this helped clear things up a little more.
John Lindsey
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:01:49 -0600, Iron...@NindoRyu.com wrote:
>He's even co-opted folks from Koga Ryu Ninjutsu into
>Genbukan Ninpo. Looks like your arguments are suffering in the light of
>fact.
Just wanted to set the record straight in regards to the Genbukan. I
think the only time the Nindo students have met Tanemura Sensei is at
one of the Ninja summits back in the later 1980's. In fact, I have a
complete video record of the seminar and do see some familiar faces
from your website.
Anyone claiming association with Tanemura Sensei must be able to
present the documentation that all of us are required to maintain.
Genbukan does not give out honorary rank, nor do we give away rank to
new members. I was a six dan in Bujinkan and had to train for almost
3 years till I was able to test and receive my shodan in Genbukan.
Genbukan dojo cho are required to show their dojo certification upon
request by any prospective student. Our licensing system is very
detailed and strictly adhered to by Tanemura Sensei. Thus, it is very
easy to tell who is truly associated with us.
If anyone has any questions as to who is authorized to teach Genbukan
or the KJJR, they can contact me directly. Our website also has a
list of dojo, but the list is currently in need of updating which I
will be doing soon.........
John Lindsey
Genbukan Ganseki Dojo
Houston, TX
Genbukan Internet Information Center
http://www.neosoft.com/~jlindsey/
Yahoo Internet Life Magazine's
"Best Martial Art Site" Aug 97
Wild Bill
Iron...@NindoRyu.com wrote:
<>
>Ironhawk: There are many Ryu that co-opted ninjutsu techniques, including
>Daito and Goshin Ryu.
ryu in question by adsorption or adoption , maintaining in both cases the
historic lineage of where the ryu came from. Furthermore, neither Goshin
nor Daito ryu claims to actively teach a ninjutsu ryu. Your arguments
keep falling apart under scrutiny.
>>
>
>According to Don Draeger, who was a student of the Tenshin Shoden Katori
>Shinto Ryu, as well as being one of the foremost western researchers into
>traditional Japanese martial arts, the TSKSR did teach elements of
>ninjutsu. this is not relally that unusual, as ninjutsu was a part of
>many Bugei traditions. What a lot of people forget is that most of the
>people that we refer to as ninja today, were actually Samurai. There
>were many ryu that would have had Ninjutsu (stealth)methods as part of
>their training.
>
>Ironhawk: Thank you for proving once and for all that we have every
>right to exist as we are... You're work is much appreciated... We would
>also like to thank Shoto Tanemura, Higuchi Sensei, and Master Hector
>Rodriguez for contributing to our Bugei.
Again, Tanamura sensei was a student of Hatsumi soke, and they are
cousins. What does he have to do with your BS?
>On the other hand, there were not that many ryu that could actually be
>considered Ninjutsu Ryu. Of the thousands of bugei ryu that used to
>exist, there are now only a relative handful that are now still in
>existence. Many of these schools have changed from Jutsu systems to Do
>forms and have thus lost much of their combat emphasis and technique.
>
>Ironhawk: Interesting that this is only a one-way street in your mind...
<snip>techniques back to the Samurai age in Japan (pre meiji era).
>
>Ironhawk: Like it or not - that's political, and more than slightly
>racist. I guess since we are presuming that a Caucasian is stating this
>attitude - it's acceptable. Maybe the 'Uncle Tom' syndrome can cross
>national boundries...
What a cop out! Get a life! I don't see many Japanese claiming to have
reinvented Escrima! The fact remains that all ninpo ryu and infact all
koryu maintained strict lineage documentation specifically to prevent
dishonorable people claiming to be from their ryu and dishonoring their
traditions. Even if one DID train in a specific ryu, in the case of
Hamon, one can never claim that ryu again. It is a Japanese art, dude,
get with it!
>Actually as it turns out, none of the "other" ninjutsu groups such as the
>Nindo ryu, can even trace their art back to Japan. Personaly I believe in giving others the benefit of the doubt, and am glad to hear about their
>arts and their lineage. It is just that no one has yet been able to
>answer the simplest of questions about their Ninjutsu history.
>
>Rodriguez, Higuchi, Tanemura (to a lesser extent)
SO , How does Nindo ryu claim Japanese lineage via Puerto Rico? Tanemura
is of Takematsu's lineage.
>Now as Bill pointed out, Ninjutsu is only a small part of the training in
>the Bujinkan Dojo. Out of nine Koryu traditions that Masaaki Hatsumi is
>Soke of, only three are ninjutsu traditions. Of these three, the most
>complete is the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. The other ryu are all old Samurai
>Bugei traditions.
>
>Ironhawk: Bujinkan & Genbukan can do it, but a Puerto Rican can't -
>sounds like a double-standard to me...
Can do what, my race obsessed child? What a puerto rican, or swede, or
irishman, or african, or whatever CAN'T do is to claim to have reinvented
a traditional Japanese ryu out of thin air.
>
>While we can say that there are no other proven Ninjutsu ryu outside of
>the Bujinkan, there are several other Koryu traditions that are still
>found in Japan. We in the Bujinkan certainly respect these old
>traditions, and we welcome the chance to share ideas and training. Most
>of the other Koryu Traditions that are taught now are what would be
>considered classical martial arts, in that they are really more of a
>historical collection of techniques and the emphasis is on preserving
>rather than training in these arts as a living tradition. There are a
>few like the Bujinkan that still train in these old arts with an emphasis
>on combat and defense reality.
>
>Ironhawk: Nindo Ryu was created to revive that empahasis, without the
>politics that plague Bujinkan/Bujinden, Genbukan/KJJF, and Jinenkan.
>Febres was around when all of that started, and stayed away. That was
>why he refused rank under Higuchi, and a later rank test offered in 1991
>- an offer in which it was stated that he could test to HachiDan for $100
>per Dan in front of Hatsumi at a Tai Kai... Co-optation is a good
>ninjutsu strategy, but it didn't work in this case. That fact is
>probably the real reason why everyone istrying to disprove the legitimacy
>of our existance. Too late......
NO, you have it bass akwards again. We are trying to prove the veracity
of your claim on a Japanese koryu with no Densho, no lineage , and vague
claims on your part referring to Tanemura et al. It sounds like you
watched a GEmbukan video and said "Hey I can do that! " Taaaa daaa, Nindo
ryu is born.
Show us your documentation, your lineage, and how you claim to be rooted
in the ninja arts of the Iga region of Japan.
Still waiting,
WIld Bill
<snip>
>Ironhawk: Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai fits all of your criteria, except
>connection to you. So what? Although Hatsumi may be considered the
>world's expert, that doesn't mean that he is the ONLY one that can tell
>whether or not we practice ninjutsu tactics and strategy. Shoto Tanemura
>has proven that. He's even co-opted folks from Koga Ryu Ninjutsu into
>Genbukan Ninpo. Looks like your arguments are suffering in the light of
>fact.
>
>Ironhawk: Bujinkan people have this slippery trick of pointing out the
>broad strokes of the Bugei manifestation when it suits them, and then
>when we show ourselves to have that approach, you slip into the specifics
>of political connection to Bujinkan. What a bunch of malarky! Just open
>up and take a look at us - hosting a stop on the Tour Of Force IS FREE -
>something I'm sure that Bujinkan people are still getting used to...
Errrr..........You seem to have forgotten something, Shoto Tanemura was a
student of Hatsumi soke. ALso, there is no Koga ryu, remember? That,
unlike your long winded bullshit IS documented.
You are beginning to sound like you watched too many mutant ninja turtle
films.
WIld BIll
Jeff Perry
geez. isent one to leesensei, but i didn't manage to put it on the
newsgroup. oh well. here goes again.
On 29 Jan 1998, LEESENSEI wrote:
> >i'm just wondering what our bujinkan friends can tell me about konigun
> >ninjutsu? since you all seem to have knowledge on every "known" ninja
> >ryu, do tell me about this one. no, it has no affiliation with the
> >supposedly nonexistant koga ryu. do please let me know. thanks.
> >
> >Jeff Perry
>
> Well Jeff, perhaps you would be willing to tell us about your style. Like I
> said, I am always open to discussion. What is your schools linneage and
> history? Who founded your style and when? What are some of the major Katas
Konigun Ninjutsu was founded on July 28, 1196 by the american calender on
the island of kyushu, in the town of kagoshima by shidoshi sai-ja.
> and wazas of your style? What specifically makes your style a ninjutsu ryu?
the definition of ninjutsu is nin=nature and jutsu=study of, causing
ninjutsu to be the study of nature. the nature of everything, so a ninja
sect(or ryu if you prefer) should work towards the goal of becoming one
with mind, body, spirit, and nature. the nature of everything. as such,
the curriculm teaches basic taijutsu, grappeling, acrobatics, 48 weapons,
stealth and concealment, wilderness survival, and such.
> What documentaion do you have to offer? What connection to Japan can you
> offer? Is there anyone in Japan that can acknowledge your existence and
go to kagoshima, and ask for Shidoshi Sai-ja. also, the japanese imperial
council i believe is the name of the organization. you may also view one
of our handbooks, which we have yet to have a black belt from another
style even touch the amount of information supplied in it. any furthur
questions may be reffered back to me, or you may call the central office
in U.S. in Cookeville, TN at 1-888-URNINJA. a web page will be
completed soon also.
> historical legacy? If you can answer these questions and substantiate the
> information, then we would be delighted to learn more about your art. I am
> perfectly ready to welcome you to the discussions.
ok.
>
> Please let me know your answers to these questions as soon as possible.
>
i did.
> Lee Drew
> Birmingham Bujinkan Dojo
>
>
Bushi Jeff Perry.
Wild Bill
OK , enough of this BUllshit.
Wy don't you guys go claim to be Kali masters for awhile. You can't make
up your own art, then claim to be a Japanese koryu! What the hell makes
you clods think you can place yourselves inthe same catagory as Tenshin
Shoden Katori shinto ryu, Kukishinden ryu, Togakure ryu, GYokko ryu,
Yoshin ryu, etc? You made up your own art, that is it. It isn't ninjutsu
just because you want to call it that! Why not insult the Okinawan ryukyu
arts and claim to be ryukyu lineage? How about being traditional Hwarang
do because you went to a seminar and you have a similar side kick?
You really don't get it , do you?
Disgustedly ,
Wild Bill
----------
| From: Houston H. Haynes, Tashi Tetsutaka
| To: Wild Bill
| Cc: ni...@aol.com; nind...@aol.com; shiha...@compuserve.com
| Subject: Re: Ninjutsu - Which is REAL Ninjutsu?
| Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 4:18PM
|
| Wild Bill wrote: [a bunch of stuff...] :-)
|
| > Iron...@NindoRyu.com wrote: [a bunch of stuff, too...] :-)
| > <>
| > >Ironhawk: There are many Ryu that co-opted ninjutsu techniques,
| > including
| > >Daito and Goshin Ryu.
| > the
| > ryu in question by adsorption or adoption , maintaining in both cases
| > the
| > historic lineage of where the ryu came from. Furthermore, neither
| > Goshin
| > nor Daito ryu claims to actively teach a ninjutsu ryu. Your arguments
| > keep falling apart under scrutiny.
|
| We agree on that, in case you didn't notice. Whether or not the ryu is
| named is avoiding the plain fact that the tactics and strategy is
| there. If it smells, tastes, and feels like ninjutsu - guess what -
| IT'S NINJUTSU! TA-DAAAAAA! There are some who practice NinJutsu
| tactics and strategy, and call it Samurai JuJutsu. Guess what - it's
| still NinJutsu - regardless of lineage or name.
SO If Pedro Sanchez in central Mexico develops a fighting form with a hay
sickle , and it has the "smells, tastes, and feels like" of Yamani ryu
naginatajutsu, then it IS Yamani ryu naginatajutsu??? Yeah , right! Your
logic just doesn' t cut it. (pun intended:-)
| > >According to Don Draeger, who was a student of the Tenshin Shoden
| > Katori
| > >Shinto Ryu, as well as being one of the foremost western researchers
| > into
| > >traditional Japanese martial arts, the TSKSR did teach elements of
| > >ninjutsu. this is not relally that unusual, as ninjutsu was a part
| > of
| > >many Bugei traditions. What a lot of people forget is that most of
| > the
| > >people that we refer to as ninja today, were actually Samurai. There
| > >were many ryu that would have had Ninjutsu (stealth)methods as part
| > of
| > >their training.
| > >
| > >Ironhawk: Thank you for proving once and for all that we have every
| > >right to exist as we are... You're work is much appreciated... We
| > would
| > >also like to thank Shoto Tanemura, Higuchi Sensei, and Master Hector
| > >Rodriguez for contributing to our Bugei.
| > Again, Tanamura sensei was a student of Hatsumi soke, and they are
| > cousins. What does he have to do with your BS?
|
| Tanemura spent a good bit of time with Febres when he visited Ohio.
| Rodriguez was there, too. Febres holds rank in Rodriguez's Samurai
| Dojo.
I spent , at various time , a "good deal of time" with Hohan Soken, Glenn
Premru, and John Hamilton, but that doesn't mean I claim to teach either
Shobayashi or Matsumura Orthodox Shorin ryu! Did Tanemura rank this dude
in ninjutsu? No, he did not. So why do you keep bringing up his name? I
trained with students of Okazaki sensei, but don't claim to teach
Shotokan. I did train in mano y daga Spanish/ French dagger,with an
honest to god maestro of the art, and I do incorporate that into my
training, but I sure as hell don't claim to be a maestro and certainly
don't claim to teach it! I can drop more names than you can count in at
least 17 different arts over the last 30 odd years, but that sure as hell
doesn't give me menkyo in ANYTHING. He has menkyo or he doesn't ,
period.In order to teach a koryu, that is what he has to have to be
legit. That is the quality control on the art. RANK in BUjinkan, Jinenkan
, or Gembukan is NOT menkyo.
Rodrigez does not hold ninjutsu menkyo and sure as hell can;t give out
menkyo. Tanemura DOES hold menkyo kaiden in ninjutsu, and if he thought
this turkey should be teaching ninjutsu, he would put it on a damn scroll
and declare him as an instructor. He did not. HAtsumi soke did not offer
menkyo in any art, just the chance to make a fool of himself under the
sword for the Godan test. (which he would have to take before accepting
the hachidan you claim he offered to buy)
If Rodrigez holds menkyo in a true Samurai art, then he would have the
densho, which he obviously doesn't. If he wants to teach hs own art ,
then call it what it is, don't claim to teach an obscure art that is
limited to one segment of one part of Japan. Have you no ethics or honor
at all? It is obvious you are so ignorant about koryu that you don't even
know who or how legitimate teaching license is passed on.
BY the way, Rank in bujjinkan is NOT rank in ninjutsu. it isn't evn
menkyo, it is a kyu/dan rank.(have I made that clear?) ONly a handful of
men in the world hold real menkyo in Iga ninjutsu, and your little band
of merry men don't , period.
No matter how hard I try to make my sword practice correct , and no
matter how good I get over the decades I have practiced, I cannot claim
to teach kenjutsu without menkyo from a recognized and (himself) licensed
renshi. Just because what I do looks and feels like kenjutsu, I cannot
claim to teach kenjutsu. I train with the sword,and that is it, unless
and until someone with menkyo tells me I am acccepted as an uchideshi or
renshi and I formally recieve the scrolls.
That is how it is done is ALL koryu, and you can't change the rules just
because you want to do your own thing and expect to be accepted as legit.
YOU ARE NOT LEGITIMATE NIJNJUTSUKA< period. If you claimed to be a
maestro in kali just because you decided your stick fighting was as good
as one of the filipinos, and you attended a few seminars, you would be
laughed out ar any training hall in the world.
WHy do you think ninjutsu is any different?
| > >On the other hand, there were not that many ryu that could actually
| > be
| > >considered Ninjutsu Ryu. Of the thousands of bugei ryu that used to
| > >exist, there are now only a relative handful that are now still in
| > >existence. Many of these schools have changed from Jutsu systems to
| > Do
| > >forms and have thus lost much of their combat emphasis and
technique.
| >
| > >
| > >Ironhawk: Interesting that this is only a one-way street in your
| > mind...
| > <snip>techniques back to the Samurai age in Japan (pre meiji era).
| > >
| > >Ironhawk: Like it or not - that's political, and more than slightly
| > >racist. I guess since we are presuming that a Caucasian is stating
| > this
| > >attitude - it's acceptable. Maybe the 'Uncle Tom' syndrome can
cross
| >
| > >national boundries...
| > What a cop out! Get a life! I don't see many Japanese claiming to
have
| >
| > reinvented Escrima! The fact remains that all ninpo ryu and infact
all
| >
| > koryu maintained strict lineage documentation specifically to prevent
| > dishonorable people claiming to be from their ryu and dishonoring
| > their
| > traditions.
|
| So what if ALL OF THE DOCUMENTATION AND LINEAGE IN THE WORLD was
| offered, but refused? [BTW, IT WAS] Hmmm... guess we're on our own...
| Always has been.. Always will be...
What documentation, from what lineage , by what soke? You can't OFFER
lineage , you come from a recognized koryu , or you do not. Remember ,
dan ranking in Bujinkan is not ninjutsu no menkyo. You have a sad case of
lack of research, my friend.
| > Even if one DID train in a specific ryu, in the case of
| > Hamon, one can never claim that ryu again. It is a Japanese art,
dude,
| >
| > get with it!
| >
| > >Actually as it turns out, none of the "other" ninjutsu groups such
as
| > the
| > >Nindo ryu, can even trace their art back to Japan. Personaly I
| > believe in giving others the benefit of the doubt, and am glad to
hear
| > about their
| > >arts and their lineage. It is just that no one has yet been able to
| > >answer the simplest of questions about their Ninjutsu history.
| > >
| > >Rodriguez, Higuchi, Tanemura (to a lesser extent)
| > SO , How does Nindo ryu claim Japanese lineage via Puerto Rico?
| > Tanemura
| > is of Takematsu's lineage.
|
| We don't claim lineage, just their influence. If we wanted lineage -
| Febres could have had it for $800 back in 1991.
You have to ACTUALLY TRAIN IN AN ART TO CLAIM LINEAGE IN THAT ART>
Again, read my text, stupid. Rank in gembukan, jinenkan , or bujinkan is
not menkyo in any art. It is rank in bujinkan,et al. assuming the doof
could pass the godan exam, which I doubt.
| > >Now as Bill pointed out, Ninjutsu is only a small part of the
| > training in
| > >the Bujinkan Dojo. Out of nine Koryu traditions that Masaaki
Hatsumi
| > is
| > >Soke of, only three are ninjutsu traditions. Of these three, the
| > most
| > >complete is the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. The other ryu are all old
| > Samurai
| > >Bugei traditions.
| > >
| > >Ironhawk: Bujinkan & Genbukan can do it, but a Puerto Rican can't -
| > >sounds like a double-standard to me...
| > Can do what, my race obsessed child? What a puerto rican, or swede,
or
| >
| > irishman, or african, or whatever CAN'T do is to claim to have
| > reinvented
| > a traditional Japanese ryu out of thin air.
|
| It's not a traditional ryu. It is our interpretation of experience
with
| various NinJutsu ryu.
THen by your own admission it is YOUR interpretation of a traditional
art, not a traditional art, and not one of you bozos in trained in
ninjutsu , or any traditional koryu. YOU DON"T HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO
NINJUTSU, ANY MORE THAN YOU DO TO BAKTRI NEGRA, SHANTUNG BLACK TIGER, OR
HOKKIEN CRANE. That is fact, jack.
| > >While we can say that there are no other proven Ninjutsu ryu outside
| > of
| > >the Bujinkan, there are several other Koryu traditions that are
still
| >
| > >found in Japan. We in the Bujinkan certainly respect these old
| > >traditions, and we welcome the chance to share ideas and training.
| > Most
| > >of the other Koryu Traditions that are taught now are what would be
| > >considered classical martial arts, in that they are really more of a
| > >historical collection of techniques and the emphasis is on
preserving
| >
| > >rather than training in these arts as a living tradition. There are
| > a
| > >few like the Bujinkan that still train in these old arts with an
| > emphasis
| > >on combat and defense reality.
| > >
| > >Ironhawk: Nindo Ryu was created to revive that empahasis, without
the
Precisely, it was created , and therefore it is NOT a Japanese art, it is
a Puerto Rican Art, or an American art, or whatever, it is not koryu
ninjutsu, just because a bunch of dudes decide they can get together an
MAKE a new Ninjutsu ryu. You have GOT to be kidding! I could create my
own series of arts, and make myself soke of a dozen arts that way. :-)
Again, what a load of crap!
If you trained with the Gracies, or a licenced student of theirs, than
you could claim to be GJJ. Do you understand the analogy?
| > >politics that plague Bujinkan/Bujinden, Genbukan/KJJF, and Jinenkan.
| > >Febres was around when all of that started, and stayed away. That
| > was
| > >why he refused rank under Higuchi, and a later rank test offered in
| > 1991
| > >- an offer in which it was stated that he could test to HachiDan for
| > $100
| > >per Dan in front of Hatsumi at a Tai Kai...
RANK IN BUJINKAN IS RANK IN BUJINKAN< NOT MENKYO IN NINJUTSU, futhermore,
the doof didn't pass the godan test , did he? Your claims are truly
pitiful.
Co-optation is a good
| > >ninjutsu strategy, but it didn't work in this case. That fact is
| > >probably the real reason why everyone istrying to disprove the
| > legitimacy
| > >of our existance. Too late......
| > NO, you have it bass akwards again. We are trying to prove the
| > veracity
| > of your claim on a Japanese koryu with no Densho, no lineage , and
| > vague
| > claims on your part referring to Tanemura et al. It sounds like you
| > watched a GEmbukan video and said "Hey I can do that! " Taaaa daaa,
| > Nindo
| > ryu is born. Show us your documentation, your lineage, and how you
| > claim to be rooted in the ninja arts of the Iga region of Japan.
|
| Since Shimabara took place in the 16th century - any claim by an Iga
Ryu
| is pretty shaky by itself...
The lineages are accepted by the Japanese, are documented and there are
densho. They are documented and authenticated by a grueling process, and
have direct historical lineage through Takematsu. You went to a seminar
with Tanemura, and that is your claim to Japanese roots? Yeah, right!
| > Still waiting,
| > WIld Bill
| > <snip>
| > >Ironhawk: Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai fits all of your criteria,
No it does not. You lack lineage , historical connection and unbroken
teaching from soke to soke, and you have no teaching license from anyone
who has such teaching. You are full of crap.
<snip| > >up and take a look at us - hosting a stop on the Tour Of Force
IS
| > FREE -
Your Web page is pure rubbish IMHO, and it sure isn't ninjutsu.. Where
did you dig up that crap? You call that ninjutsu?? You better hope
Tanemura sensei doesn't find out what you are connecting his name to.
That is your claim to legitimacy???? Are you a bunch of teenagers playing
a prank?
<snip>
| Nice manners... [WARNING - CUTE COMMENT] Documentation usually isn't
| required to chop off the head of a charging samurai, or a break the arm
| of a mugger at an ATM machine. The paperwork comes later. |-]
It is obvious you folks don't have technique OR documentation. Why don't
you just join up with Ashida Kim, he teaches ninjutsu , too, just like
you guys.:-) (Warning -another cute comment)
|
| > You are beginning to sound like you watched too many mutant ninja
| > turtle
| > films.
|
| You're losing your cool. Not pretty.
I never claimed to be pretty, incredible handsome, yes, pretty , no:-)_
(Yet another cut comment)
WIld BIll
<snip>
Watch films, Play in hoods, pretend real hard, you can be a ninja, too:_)
in the Nindoo ryuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu:-)
Eric Weil
One word about Nindo ryu (fake!)
These guys are pure clowns, there are doing Goju ryu Karate dressed in black
gi, and carry straight AWMA Ninja swords, passing it off as NinJutsu (notice
the capital J in jutsu).
Fucking losers! Tour de fake!
And to answer the original question.
Which is REAL Ninjutsu?
Its simple! Real as in from Japan with a legitimate lineage, teacher to
student, densho, makimono, Iemoto, etc. Two words: Masaaki Hatsumi
(Togakure ryu, Kumogakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu)
Your other choices of Ninjutsu are simple again:
Genbukan (Tanemura, Menkyo Kaiden in Togakure ryu, 25 yrs. under Soke
Hatsumi)
Jinenkan (Manaka, Menkyo Kaiden in Togakure ryu, 35 yrs. under Soke Hatsumi)
People should put on there websites:
'Beware of Fake Ninjutsu'
Nindo ryu
Koga ryu
Koga ryu (South African)
Ashida Kim (a.k.a. Christopher Hunter)
and any other wannabe's
I think these Wannabe Nindo ryu clowns even have on there website
affiliation with the Black Dragon Society (Ashida Kim?). Give it up! Why
don't you invent some kind of Alien jutsu, with a lineage to Mars, cause
well believe you then too!
David Dow
>Wasn't the term "shidoshi" basically invented by Mr. Hatsumi for his
>Bujinkan?
No, It is a basic Japanese term for instructor. Shido to lead or instruct.
shi= teacher(same as the Chinese use in sifu)
But Hatsumi uses different kanji Shi= warrior/gentleman do=way or path and
the same shi as above. A slight tangent but I hate it when people assume
terms are exclusively Bujinkan. BTW Taijutsu isn't either
David Dow
Bujinkan Anko Dojo
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/4193
Kikeba Ii (Whatever Works)---Toshiro Nagato
John Lindsey
>the definition of ninjutsu is nin=nature and jutsu=study of, causing
>ninjutsu to be the study of nature.
What kanji dictionary did you use for this translation? Study of
Nature? I would like to see what kanji you are claiming to use for
ninjutsu, since it appears to be different than what most people use.
I got a degree in biology, so I guess I am a ninja too.........
>go to kagoshima, and ask for Shidoshi Sai-ja.
Wasn't the term "shidoshi" basically invented by Mr. Hatsumi for his
Bujinkan?
>Bushi Jeff Perry.
Hmm, when is "bushi" a title? BTW, it should go after your full name,
not before it if you are trying to use a title in the Japanese
fashion.
John
Richard Jones
>
>Konigun Ninjutsu was founded on July 28, 1196 by the american calender on
>the island of kyushu, in the town of kagoshima by shidoshi sai-ja.
>
>> and wazas of your style? What specifically makes your style a ninjutsu ryu?
>
>the definition of ninjutsu is nin=nature and jutsu=study of, causing
>ninjutsu to be the study of nature. the nature of everything, so a ninja
>sect(or ryu if you prefer) should work towards the goal of becoming one
>with mind, body, spirit, and nature. the nature of everything. as such,
>the curriculm teaches basic taijutsu, grappeling, acrobatics, 48 weapons,
>stealth and concealment, wilderness survival, and such.
>
>> What documentaion do you have to offer? What connection to Japan can you
>> offer? Is there anyone in Japan that can acknowledge your existence and
>
>go to kagoshima, and ask for Shidoshi Sai-ja. also, the japanese imperial
>council i believe is the name of the organization. you may also view one
>of our handbooks, which we have yet to have a black belt from another
>style even touch the amount of information supplied in it. any furthur
>questions may be reffered back to me, or you may call the central office
>in U.S. in Cookeville, TN at 1-888-URNINJA. a web page will be
>completed soon also.
>
ARGGGHHHhhhhhhhhhh
Why don't all you wankers out there making up ninja ryu because it is
trendy take a BIG LONG look at yourselves ... who really gives a shit, do
what you like, go play with your ninja stars but DON"T :
1) Attatch yourself in the same sentence to any traditional ryuha as it is
an insult
2) use the bujinkan or Genbukan to ride on the back off by slagging us etc
3) Think for a moment any one is sucked in
Mind you I look at it this way if you guys weren't about I would have even
more wankers turn up at my dojo asking if we train in masks and in the
woods with swords, or wanting to challenge me (wait a minute i quite like
that aspect :-))
Rich
Kendo guy9
>>Bushi Jeff Perry.
>
>Hmm, when is "bushi" a title? BTW, it should go after your full name,
>not before it if you are trying to use a title in the Japanese
>fashion.
>
>
>John
>
>
actually it is considered VERY bad form to place a title in your name when you
sign it, or if you refer to your self. its just not done (at least not in
Japan)
gambatte!!
Shidoshi Osensei Master Chris ;)
Kendo guy9
>These guys are pure clowns, there are doing Goju ryu Karate dressed in black
>gi,
hey... if i was asociated with Goju ryu i would be very insulted for being
mentioned in the same sentence as these fools ;)
gambatte!!
Chris :)
J.C. and Amiko Kelly
Is this a tongue in cheek parody of something? I really hope noone is
seriously this misinformed.
<snip>
>
>Konigun Ninjutsu was founded on July 28, 1196 by the american calender on
>the island of kyushu, in the town of kagoshima by shidoshi sai-ja.
1196AD? That would be a couple hundred years before other ninja groups
were established. (Oh and by the way there is no such thing as an
American calendar). In addition, it appears that ninjutsu has its
roots in middle-eastern Japan, not Okinawa.
>
>the definition of ninjutsu is nin=nature and jutsu=study of, causing
>ninjutsu to be the study of nature. the nature of everything, so a ninja
>sect(or ryu if you prefer) should work towards the goal of becoming one
>with mind, body, spirit, and nature. the nature of everything. as such,
>the curriculm teaches basic taijutsu, grappeling, acrobatics, 48 weapons,
>stealth and concealment, wilderness survival, and such.
Others have commented, but this is just plainly incorrect. There is no
Japanese word, or sound, or corresponding chinese character 'nin' that
means nature. You've been misled.
Further, jutsu does not mean 'study of'. Even assuming they did, how
could 'study of nature' then go on to mean becoming one with mind,
body, spirit, and nature?
>go to kagoshima, and ask for Shidoshi Sai-ja. also, the japanese imperial
Assuming he lived in 1196, I guess he'd be dead by now...
>council i believe is the name of the organization. you may also view one
The name of the organization *what*. Are you implying you are
sponsored or recognized by the Japanese imperial house?
<snip>
>>
>Bushi Jeff Perry.
>
=================================================
J.C. Kelly
j-a...@s054.aone.net.au
今年の抱負：修身斉家
Jose M. Ruiz
Hello.
I'm writing to ask if anyone know of a REAL ninjutsu school. I have
literally dreamed of training Ninjutsu, and I would greatly appreciate any
information you could provide. If you do not think the information is fit
to post, feel free to write me personally.
Thank you. Be well.
Jeff Perry
lets see if i can member everybody elses little replies and put it all in
one big ol post. i'll try my bestest.
On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, John Lindsey wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:07:51 -0600, Jeff Perry
> <jjp...@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> wrote:
>
> >the definition of ninjutsu is nin=nature and jutsu=study of, causing
> >ninjutsu to be the study of nature.
>
> What kanji dictionary did you use for this translation? Study of
> Nature? I would like to see what kanji you are claiming to use for
> ninjutsu, since it appears to be different than what most people use.
> I got a degree in biology, so I guess I am a ninja too.........
no. nature is everything. that is how mind body soul nature.
everything. that is what ninjutsu means. how do these other "people"
translate it? where do they get shadow out of it? sheesh. anyway. i
would like anybody claiming our style to be fake to come to our dojo in
cookeville tn, or you could even come here to oxford, and i will be happy
to demonstrate whatever it is that would be fake. heh. if we made it
up(or my teacher did) then dang we are some dan smart cookies. anyway, as
far as bujinkan goes, i don't really understand why you attack other ninja
sects claiming to be the only ones, especially since you aren't even real
ninjutsu sects. and why hatsumi seems to be trying his best to distance
himself from you i woudln't know. anyway, that is my gossip on that
matter, i personally don't care for your various politics and how the
various style have so much infighting going on in them. i think that is
rather child like in itself. anyway.
>
>
> >go to kagoshima, and ask for Shidoshi Sai-ja.
>
> Wasn't the term "shidoshi" basically invented by Mr. Hatsumi for his
> Bujinkan?
shidoshi comes from the japanese word shidosha which means director which
is how we define it. kyushu does have a bit of a southern dialect which
is why the iga ninjas never could infiltrate our cities.:)
>
> >Bushi Jeff Perry.
yes, i probably should have signed it Bushi Jeffrey Jason Perry. i'm
untraditional and a horrible martial artist i guess. gomen nasai. i
apologize. we use a warrior system in our black sash rankings as opposed
to the kyu system. that is how it was done traditionally. if you would
like to look that up. also, i don't believe it is disgraceful to place
your title before your name anymore than it is for a doctor. and as far
as Shidoshi Sai-ja goes, no there is one alive as it has been passed from
father to son through the 37 generations in times when it wasn't a real
good thing to be known to be a practitioner of ninjutsu. lets see, any
other problems? questions? comments? bow out and go home.
>
> Hmm, when is "bushi" a title? BTW, it should go after your full name,
> not before it if you are trying to use a title in the Japanese
> fashion.
>
>
> John
>
>
sayonara
Bushi Jeffrey Jason Perry esquire with some initials at the end or
something. i guess. heh.
Eric Weil
David Bartle wrote in message <34D446...@scholar.nepean.uws.edu.au>...
forgot the Kevin Hawthorne idiots over here in Australia.
Hey is that the guy who was on Discovery channel like 6-7 yrs. ago. I
remember a clip from some show on Discovery about this guy in Australia with
a Red hood on, training on the beach and some parking garage segment. Didn't
look real at all!
Is Kevin Hawthorne still claiming to teach REAL Ninjutsu?
Eric
David Bartle
Eric Weil wrote:
>
> One word about Nindo ryu (fake!)
>
KataGatame
According to their web page, Nindo-ryu was founded by Carlos in 1979. Also
according to their web page, he began studying martial arts at age twelve, and
he has practiced martial arts for twenty-five years. Let's do the math. He's
thirty-seven, so let's see....he was how old in '79? My best guess is he voted
for the first time during the Carter/Reagan race.
You guys need to study this web page. It's a SCREAM! Especially all the
new stuff about survival training and physical fitness.
Hopefully, he'll knock out some books and videotapes soon. I'd like to
learn jin-nutsu from a real master.
BTW, the police tactics page is also a hoot. "Taiho" means "police". Or so
they say. ROFL
Everyone keep at it!
Ge...@Yetanotherfatguyinablackgi.com
John Lindsey
>lets see if i can member everybody elses little replies and put it all in
>one big ol post. i'll try my bestest.
>
>no. nature is everything. that is how mind body soul nature.
>everything. that is what ninjutsu means. how do these other "people"
>translate it?
Well, the Japanese translate it differently, and since it is their
phrase, I gotta go with how they do it.
> where do they get shadow out of it? sheesh.
There is none.......
Shibu West
Interesting. The main source of contention between the Nindo-ryu and others is
that they claim to be an interpretation of ninjutsu while everyone else points
out that they have no connection with historical arts.
My question is how can someone have an interpretation without training in the
art they claim to have produced an interpretation of? Allow me to rephrase an
argument that went on in the AOL boards a while back. If I were a Tae Kwon Do
teacher who was losing money and did not want to have to take a job as night
manager for a Taco Bell, opening up a Brazilian Jujutsu school would keep my
dojo open. As such, I watched a few videos and maybe attended a seminar by a
Gracie. Would this qualify me as an instructor in Gracie Jujutsu, let alone
give me the qualifications to start my own "Brazilian Jujutsu" style?
I may have been a very devoted TKD student, but would I have the grappling and
ground fighting skills that the Gracies are famous for? Wouldn't what I put
together basically be just high kicks and blocks done in a TKD style? Just
because I choose to call it an 'interpretation' of GJJ instead of the real
thing, does that make my style any more acceptable? I could also claim that I
was very effective, but if I was willing to misrepresent myself as to my
qualifications, should students trust that claim in the absence of outside
proof (I.E. a real fight for my life)?
Nindo ryu claims to be a school of ninjutsu, but they can't prove any link to
a traditional school. The Koga died a long time ago and the only schools that
seem to be accepted by sources in Japan are the ones in the Genbukan, Bujinkan
and Jinenkan. If they could produce a source in Japan that would back their
claims, that would be cause to notice them. They have not. They even seem to
think that requiring a Japanese art be known in Japan is racist. I do not see
the logic. (But then again, I am not making my living off of teaching
Nindo-ryu, or any other art for that matter.)
They have claimed association with the Bujinkan through Higuchi. But even they
have to admit that it was after they had announced they were a school of
ninjutsu and started publishing in Ninja Magazine. Higuchi, as I understand it,
was a cop in Japan who moved to America. He could not be a cop in America,
could barely speak English, and the arts he was skilled in (Iaido, Kendo,
Taihojutsu) were not ones that Americans had an interest in, so he could not
support himself teaching that. But once he added the name 'Bujinkan' to his
organizations name and started printing articles in Ninja magazine he was soon
well off financially. Despite the name he used, the fact that he did not have a
teaching license from Hatsumi, nor has Hatsumi ever signed a rank certificate
for one of his students, shows that what he taught was not what Hatsumi
considered to be Bujinkan. He is very good at some arts, but as a source of the
Bujinkan he is not qualified.
The whole '800 dollars for eight dan' supposably offered by an American
Bujinkan member in troubling. I see that Febres himself has not jumped in to
correct this, so I must assume that he stands by the claims of Ironhawk in
regards to this. The problem is that no American instructor can offer rank
above fourth dan. After that, Hatsumi is the only one that can give or offer
rank. And there is no test other than the fifth dan. No American could arrange
for a eight dan test, the most he could do is promote him to fourth and have
him stand up at a Tai Kai for fifth. After that, he could not arrange nor
recommend them for eight. And the lack of a name for this mysterious teacher is
also troubling. Could it possibly be no one would admit to making the offer?
Maybe, just maybe, Febres was lied to and thought he was getting what he said.
There are fakes out there using the Bujinkan name. That would leave him either
being a liar or a fool. If someone wishes to see what they are, please remember
that they have as much connection with real ninjutsu as my example of a TKD
student has with GJJ.
Don Prosser
It is with interest that I`ve seen the past few posts fly across the
Bujinkan newsgroup. What indeed IS real Ninpo? A hearty question to be
asked by many...
I wonder how many of us truly understand Ninpo and it`s "truth...." Is
it a "system," a "realized martial way," even a ryu-ha as established
here within Japan? I, for one, would argue not and in favor of Ninpo NOT
being judged as an established system. A few reasons...
We speak time and again of the ageless quality of Ninpo (stressing the
"po" here for a moment) and how it differs in so very ways from the
"jutsu" ryu-ha and the "do" styles prevailing across the world. If we
are to truly recognize that, see it for what it TRULY is, then we must
endure the "falsity" of styles that will in all esence crop up as a
matter of natural course.
For what are these "false" schools? Are they false in our eyes? Do they
lend credence to the truth, shileded in a bit of mysterious dissolusion?
Or are they pieces of the puzzle, the dark sand from which grows the
wondrous lotus?
It is my belief, merely a belief like any other, that what we fear, yes
fear, from these other "styles" is a definciency within our own
commitment toward whatever form of Ninjutsu we may be following. Yet,
were we truly, wonderfully-honestly committed to that "way, " well, these
other "false schools" would be no danger to us at all....
A matter of heart, one might say. I have heard the words of many upon
this point and shall not judge others by what they follow. Yet
committment remains focal. Are you committed to Bujinkan methods,
idealogy, training? Are you a follower of Ashida Kim`s mental sciences?
As the Japanese would say, "Where indeed is your heart?"
I give no answers, but rather raise one, additional question. Do not
ask, "what is REAL Ninjutsu?" Rather, ask, "what is my role within such
REALITY......"
May you strive,
jion
--
Don Prosser
Wild Bill
"Don Prosser" <dpro...@he.mirai.or.jp> wrote:
>It is with interest that I`ve seen the past few posts fly across the
>Bujinkan newsgroup. What indeed IS real Ninpo? A hearty question to be
>asked by many...
In the context of this discussion, ninpo/ ninjutsu (none of us are
skilled enough in Japanese to go into the nihon semantics) is the Koryu
arts of the Koga and Iga regions. Of these, only a few ryu remain, and
all of those are Iga. Real Ninpo requires training under a legitimate
instructor who is of the lineage of an historical ninjutsu ryu. As with
ANY Japanese koryu, this requires documentation as well as skill.
>I wonder how many of us truly understand Ninpo and it`s "truth...." Is
>it a "system," a "realized martial way," even a ryu-ha as established
>here within Japan? I, for one, would argue not and in favor of Ninpo NOT
>being judged as an established system. A few reasons...
>
>We speak time and again of the ageless quality of Ninpo (stressing the
>"po" here for a moment) and how it differs in so very ways from the
>"jutsu" ryu-ha and the "do" styles prevailing across the world. If we
>are to truly recognize that, see it for what it TRULY is, then we must
>endure the "falsity" of styles that will in all esence crop up as a
>matter of natural course.
>
>For what are these "false" schools? Are they false in our eyes? Do they
>lend credence to the truth, shileded in a bit of mysterious dissolusion?
>Or are they pieces of the puzzle, the dark sand from which grows the
>wondrous lotus?
THis is pure bullshit. If you tried to do this with kenjutsu, sojutsu, or
any other koryu art, you would be hounded for it. Ninjutsu, REAL
ninjutsu, is an historic piece of Japanese culture and an art with
historical value. Nobody can just decide to make it up and "create" a
ninjutsu ryu. That is both unethical and dishonorable at best, criminally
fraudulent at worst. You are trying to defend an indefensible action.
>It is my belief, merely a belief like any other, that what we fear, yes
>fear, from these other "styles" is a definciency within our own
>commitment toward whatever form of Ninjutsu we may be following. Yet,
>were we truly, wonderfully-honestly committed to that "way, " well, these
>other "false schools" would be no danger to us at all....
The reason for the Densho was to give objective and verifiable legitimacy
to arts that have an historical lineage. These ryu have extreme
importance to the Japanese culture and are unique to it. They are
separate from the Okinawan/ RYukyu arts, and are subject to an objective
measure of their heritage.
>A matter of heart, one might say. I have heard the words of many upon
>this point and shall not judge others by what they follow. Yet
>committment remains focal. Are you committed to Bujinkan methods,
>idealogy, training? Are you a follower of Ashida Kim`s mental sciences?
>As the Japanese would say, "Where indeed is your heart?"
Nobody in this modern age has put the time and life dedication into
learning the hiden of any koryu art, with the exception of men like
Hatsumi, and possibly Don Angier. The problem with men like Ashida Kim,
Mr ROdrigez,et al is that they did not dedicate their lives to training
with a master like Hatsumi soke did. Ronald Duncan, Ashida Kim, Mr
Rodrigez, and their ilk are trying to make money and get some personal
hero worship from misled young and impressionable people. It is more of a
cult thing than a martial art, and it goes against every tenant of the
very code they claim to represent. It stinks, period, and anyone who
supports such activities is just as guilty by associating with such pond
scum.;
>I give no answers, but rather raise one, additional question. Do not
>ask, "what is REAL Ninjutsu?" Rather, ask, "what is my role within such
>REALITY......"
>Have you considered running for the presidency? It seem you both have a problem with reality.
WIld Bill
Wild Bill
Jeff Perry <jjp...@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> wrote:
>lets see if i can member everybody elses little replies and put it all in
>one big ol post. i'll try my bestest.
>
>
>> <jjp...@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >the definition of ninjutsu is nin=nature and jutsu=study of, causing
>> >ninjutsu to be the study of nature.
>>
>> What kanji dictionary did you use for this translation? Study of
>> Nature? I would like to see what kanji you are claiming to use for
>> ninjutsu, since it appears to be different than what most people use.
>> I got a degree in biology, so I guess I am a ninja too.........
>
>everything. that is what ninjutsu means. how do these other "people"
>would like anybody claiming our style to be fake to come to our dojo in
>cookeville tn, or you could even come here to oxford, and i will be happy
>to demonstrate whatever it is that would be fake. heh. if we made it
>up(or my teacher did) then dang we are some dan smart cookies. anyway, as
There are some damn good jujutsuka in Brazil who don't claim to be
traditional lineage. Judoka are judoka, they don't claim anythign other
than that they study the art created by Kano sensei. It doesn't matter
how effective a fighter anyone is, a shantung black tiger stylist is not
a ninja. He is probably a damn good fighter ( I have met one or two and
they are damn tough) that does not make them students of ninjutsu.
Apples and oranges remain apples and oranges, no matter how good an orang
is, it in not an apple, and vice versa.
You need some training in logic, my friend.
>far as bujinkan goes, i don't really understand why you attack other ninja
>sects claiming to be the only ones, especially since you aren't even real
>ninjutsu sects. and why hatsumi seems to be trying his best to distance
>himself from you i woudln't know. anyway, that is my gossip on that
>matter, i personally don't care for your various politics and how the
>various style have so much infighting going on in them. i think that is
>rather child like in itself. anyway.
HAtsumi soke is distancing himself from any apparent association with
illicit and false organizations such as yours. Nobody is attacking,
rather they have all consistently demanded the same level of
documentation required of any art claiming to be a koryu. You don't have
it, and ninjutsu as such is a specific art from a specific region with
certain lines of historical descent. No matter how secrtetive any ninpo
group was, they ALWAYS kept track of their lineage and sokeship. The
common roots of their art was one aspect of the cohesion of the Iga
clans. It is no diferent than the strong affinity Okinawa te has had for
documentation of historical lineage. One of the traditional ways of
verifying the legitimacy of one's claim to be of "X" ryu was the ability
to name the exact lineage of youself, your instructor, and his
instructors for several generations.
>> >go to kagoshima, and ask for Shidoshi Sai-ja.
>>
>> Wasn't the term "shidoshi" basically invented by Mr. Hatsumi for his
>> Bujinkan?
>
>shidoshi comes from the japanese word shidosha which means director which
>is how we define it. kyushu does have a bit of a southern dialect which
>is why the iga ninjas never could infiltrate our cities.:)
>
>>
>> >Bushi Jeff Perry.
>
>yes, i probably should have signed it Bushi Jeffrey Jason Perry. i'm
>untraditional and a horrible martial artist i guess. gomen nasai. i
>apologize. we use a warrior system in our black sash rankings as opposed
>to the kyu system. that is how it was done traditionally.
it still is in ninjutsu, but only a handful of Hatsumisoke's students
have menkyo ( the real traditional method of grading) specifically in
ninjutsu.
if you would
>like to look that up. also, i don't believe it is disgraceful to place
>your title before your name anymore than it is for a doctor. and as far
>as Shidoshi Sai-ja goes, no there is one alive as it has been passed from
>father to son through the 37 generations in times when it wasn't a real
>good thing to be known to be a practitioner of ninjutsu. lets see, any
>other problems? questions? comments? bow out and go home.
for some reason, you seem to think that if you want somethign to be a
particular way , it must be that way. The Japanese koryu are the Japanese
koryu , and your adolescent fantasies simply do not change historical
fact or the way in which koryu is determined. As a matter of fact, it was
concisely documented and menkyo has always been formally given and
recieved. THe Japanese do things in certain ways, and those ways don't
change just because YOU want somthing to be different.
>
>>
>> Hmm, when is "bushi" a title? BTW, it should go after your full name,
>> not before it if you are trying to use a title in the Japanese
>> fashion.
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>sayonara
>
>Bushi Jeffrey Jason Perry esquire with some initials at the end or
>something. i guess. heh.
Bushi is not a title, not a rank, it is a descriptive. The ranks used in
warrior arts related to the level of menkyo (teaching license) received.
Get a life,
WIld Bill
Wild Bill
>Maybe, just maybe, Febres was lied to and thought he was getting what he said.
>There are fakes out there using the Bujinkan name. That would leave him either
>being a liar or a fool. If someone wishes to see what they are, please remember
>that they have as much connection with real ninjutsu as my example of a TKD
>student has with GJJ.
nicely done.
Wild Bill
Julian Frost
On 29 Jan 1998, Kendo guy9 wrote:
> i believe that the Katori shinto ryu and several other ryuha DID infact teach
> "ninjutsu" techniques.i believe what happened to many of them was need for the
> skills of "ninjutsu" died out and thus the schools either stopped teaching
> them, or stopped activly teaching them. but i don't know for sure.
I know that the TSKSR still has a ninjutsu curriculm, though it is, as has
been stated, rather secretive about who is taught those techniques.
Julian
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AK
I've seen the response to you on your comments and ideas.
While strong and perhaps a bit on the rough side, I find their reaction to
you appropriate. I have struggled against stiff competition in my city for
5 years now,
partially against rival ninpo schools, but mostly against the impressions
of the general public because people like you do not have the forbearance
to train and sweat and bleed under authentic instructorship. I hold a mid
level black belt in ninjutsu. I find when I'm teaching my students, I know
20,50,100 times more than them.Yet when I am exposed to a true licensed
teacher of the ninja arts, they know 100 fold more than I do.
I wonder at the staying power or effort you put in to your learning.I
believe that perhaps in 10 or 20 years I will understand enough of the
depth of this art to make a reasonable true teacher and pass on ALL the
aspects of this art.For now, my students are faithful, built in to them is
the capacity to understand that I am still studying this art.
Maybe if I'm really good, the fairy god ninja will grant me my OWN teaching
license and then I can embark on a quest to start my own ninja ryuha.
Iron...@NindoRyu.com wrote in article
<886099319....@dejanews.com>...
Kazamm
Tried to sign onto your site. It doesn't exist! File not found!
I have seen the video produced by Febres of Nindo Ryu. I watched it very
closely and did not find any training related to Ninjutsu that I have ever
seen. I haven't trained seriously in a couple of years, but unless the
Nindo Ryu practitioners I saw on the video have changed the way they do
things, someone's going to get hurt.
Tony Woodall
Iron...@NindoRyu.com wrote in message
<886099319....@dejanews.com>...
>
>>Just curious - I was under the impression that somewhere within the
>>Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, there was Ninjutsu taught, and had been
>>for a long time, but inaccessible to Westerners. I though I read about
>>this from Don Dreager (sp?) or something. I remember seeing pictures from
>>it a long time ago. Is this not true?
>
>Ironhawk: There are many Ryu that co-opted ninjutsu techniques, including
>Daito and Goshin Ryu.
>
>>
>>
>
>According to Don Draeger, who was a student of the Tenshin Shoden Katori
>Shinto Ryu, as well as being one of the foremost western researchers into
>traditional Japanese martial arts, the TSKSR did teach elements of
>ninjutsu. this is not relally that unusual, as ninjutsu was a part of
>many Bugei traditions. What a lot of people forget is that most of the
>people that we refer to as ninja today, were actually Samurai. There
>were many ryu that would have had Ninjutsu (stealth)methods as part of
>their training.
>
>Ironhawk: Thank you for proving once and for all that we have every
>right to exist as we are... You're work is much appreciated... We would
>also like to thank Shoto Tanemura, Higuchi Sensei, and Master Hector
>Rodriguez for contributing to our Bugei.
>
>On the other hand, there were not that many ryu that could actually be
>considered Ninjutsu Ryu. Of the thousands of bugei ryu that used to
>exist, there are now only a relative handful that are now still in
>existence. Many of these schools have changed from Jutsu systems to Do
>forms and have thus lost much of their combat emphasis and technique.
>
>Ironhawk: Interesting that this is only a one-way street in your mind...
>
>With this in mind, it is not suprising that the only ninjutsu ryu that
>are still in existence were the ones that were passed down by Soke
>Toshitsugu Takamatsu. If it were not for the work of Soke Masaaki
>Hatsumi, it is posssible that these ryu would have died out as well.
>
>It is considered true that the Koga Ryu did survive to the sixties, but
>as Bill Johnson already said, the last remaining Soke and all of his
>students died tragically in an accident and the ryu is officially
>considered dead.
>
>A lot of people are under the mistaken oppinion that those in the
>Bujinkan attack other ninjutsu groups for political reasons. This is not
>really true, as there are many of us that would be delighted to find any
>other legitimate ninjutsu ryu or Bugei ryu that claims to teach
>ninjutsu. By Legitimate, I mean any ryu that can trace it's training and
>techniques back to the Samurai age in Japan (pre meiji era).
>
>Ironhawk: Like it or not - that's political, and more than slightly
>racist. I guess since we are presuming that a Caucasian is stating this
>attitude - it's acceptable. Maybe the 'Uncle Tom' syndrome can cross
>national boundries...
>
>Actually as it turns out, none of the "other" ninjutsu groups such as the
>Nindo ryu, can even trace their art back to Japan. Personaly I believe in
>giving others the benefit of the doubt, and am glad to hear about their
>arts and their lineage. It is just that no one has yet been able to
>answer the simplest of questions about their Ninjutsu history.
>
>Rodriguez, Higuchi, Tanemura (to a lesser extent)
>
>Now as Bill pointed out, Ninjutsu is only a small part of the training in
>the Bujinkan Dojo. Out of nine Koryu traditions that Masaaki Hatsumi is
>Soke of, only three are ninjutsu traditions. Of these three, the most
>complete is the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. The other ryu are all old Samurai
>Bugei traditions.
>
>Ironhawk: Bujinkan & Genbukan can do it, but a Puerto Rican can't -
>sounds like a double-standard to me...
>
>While we can say that there are no other proven Ninjutsu ryu outside of
>the Bujinkan, there are several other Koryu traditions that are still
>found in Japan. We in the Bujinkan certainly respect these old
>traditions, and we welcome the chance to share ideas and training. Most
>of the other Koryu Traditions that are taught now are what would be
>considered classical martial arts, in that they are really more of a
>historical collection of techniques and the emphasis is on preserving
>rather than training in these arts as a living tradition. There are a
>few like the Bujinkan that still train in these old arts with an emphasis
>on combat and defense reality.
>
>Ironhawk: Nindo Ryu was created to revive that empahasis, without the
>politics that plague Bujinkan/Bujinden, Genbukan/KJJF, and Jinenkan.
>Febres was around when all of that started, and stayed away. That was
>why he refused rank under Higuchi, and a later rank test offered in 1991
>- an offer in which it was stated that he could test to HachiDan for $100
>per Dan in front of Hatsumi at a Tai Kai... Co-optation is a good
>ninjutsu strategy, but it didn't work in this case. That fact is
>probably the real reason why everyone istrying to disprove the legitimacy
>of our existance. Too late......
>
>The Bujinkan Dojo has had to go through quite a bit of inspection to
>verify it's claims.
>
>Ironhawk: We're opening ourselves to inspection in our Tour of Force. We
>aim to show that our Bugei is valid - not the same as anyone else - just
>another valid interpretation. Judge the techniques - NOT THE POLITICS.
>
>Soke Hatsumi is the considered to be the worlds leading authority on the
>art of Ninjutsu. He is listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten as Soke of
>Togakure Ryu and other Ryu ha, He recently appeared in the Koryu Hiden
>Magazine, He has lectured on Ninjutsu to the current Emperor of Japan, He
>has been the adviser on many Japanese Films, books and Telivision
>Programs. He has authored several books on Ninjutsu and other Bugei
>arts. He is acknowleged as an authority on ninjutsu by such reputable
>researchers as Don Draeger, Stephen Turnbull, Andrew Adams, and others.
>He is internationally acknowledged, and travels around the world each
>year to train his thousands of students in and outside of Japan.
>
>Just about every thing that is known about Ninjutsu in the west can be
>traced to the work of Hatsumi Soke. He was featured in the west as a
>master of Ninjutsu as far back as 1961, in an issue of Argossy magazine.
>Even in Ian Flemming's novel "You Only Live Twice" The Togakure ryu is
>featured. Incidently, Hatsumi Soke was also the technical advisor for the
>film version. Hatsumi Soke was also the advisor for the well respected
>film "Shinobi No Mono" Which in my oppinion, is easily the most accurate
>portrayal of Ninjutsu that has ever been put on film.
>
>The reason that I mention all of this is that none of the other so
>called ninjutsu ryu can even prove that their "tradition" dates back to
>even the sixties. Much less trace their lineage back to pre edo period.
>By contrast, the Togakure Ryu traces back for thirty four generations.
>These people, like the Nindo Ryu would not even know what Ninjutsu is,
>without the work of Hatsumi Soke.
>
>Ironhawk: Nindo Ryu Bujutsu Kai fits all of your criteria, except
>connection to you. So what? Although Hatsumi may be considered the
>world's expert, that doesn't mean that he is the ONLY one that can tell
>whether or not we practice ninjutsu tactics and strategy. Shoto Tanemura
>has proven that. He's even co-opted folks from Koga Ryu Ninjutsu into
>Genbukan Ninpo. Looks like your arguments are suffering in the light of
>fact.
>
>Ironhawk: Bujinkan people have this slippery trick of pointing out the
>broad strokes of the Bugei manifestation when it suits them, and then
>when we show ourselves to have that approach, you slip into the specifics
>of political connection to Bujinkan. What a bunch of malarky! Just open
>up and take a look at us - hosting a stop on the Tour Of Force IS FREE -
>something I'm sure that Bujinkan people are still getting used to...
>