Fred Villari (info please)
Brian Kholdi
: I saw a few posts a while back about FV. I recently saw an ad
: for his school nearby, and was wondering exactly what it is he
: teaches. (or what his school teaches)
: I thought I had heard about most of the big-name instructors, but
: I really don't know much about FV. Can anyone fill me in, so I
: know whether or not I need to check it out or not.
Don't bother. Fred Villari got fat off of his studios during the 1980's
and stopped showing interest since then.
- Brian
Michael L. Weishaar
Mark Urbin
knowledge of.
Fred Villari has been teaching martial arts for over 25 years. He started
in New England, but since then has moved to Florida. His New England schools
are run by some of his senior black belts. There are about 130 schools
teaching Villari's Shaolin Kempo under his name and dozens of others who
teach his style, but have broken away from his organization. These include,
United Studios of Self Defense (headed by a man who was promoted to 7th Dan
by Villari and since then 8th by Nick Cerio, of Nick Cerio's Kenpo), Masters
of Self Defense Studios and several other smaller organizaions, some of which
have come and gone.
Fred Villari is still active, mostly teaching senior students and
conducting seminars.
If you are interested, check the school out. Shaolin Kempo, like many
kem/npo styles starts with hard linear techniques and then softens up as you
progress. As are most kem/npo styles in this country, it's a blend of linear
Japanese MA techniques and circular Chinese MA techniques.
Just where is the Villari Self-Defense Center you are asking about? Given
the location, somebody may be able to provide more information about the
instructor at that dojo and his/her teaching style.
--
Mark Urbin -- ecl...@world.std.com -- These opinions are mine.
"As women and as lawyers, we must never again shy from raising our
voices against sexual harassment." - Hillary Rodham Clinton, at a
1992 American Bar Association luncheon praising Anita Hill.
Brian Kholdi
Once again, Brian slams something he has repeatedly shown little or no
knowledge of.
Repeatedly shown little or no knowledge of? Why should I bore the readers
of this newsgroup with my experience in various arts that I talk about.
If anyone's interested, they can ask these questions via E-mail.
Just for the record, I took lessons at a FV studio when I was 16, for
a year. I know a lot about him & his accomplishments. Fred Villari
is one of the best fighters out there (He has to be, for promoting
himself to 10th dan from 2nd dan). However, he declines to
let others whithin his organization know that his extensive
background in wrestling has greatly helped him win street fights.
As for the quality of his studios and instructors.... well, let's just
say I left after a year, and so did most of his California Studios,
although I have a beef with United Studios as well; they are no
better.
- Brian
Mark Urbin
Brian Kholdi <kho...@csulb.edu> wrote:
>In article <Cu69L...@world.std.com> ecl...@world.std.com (Mark Urbin) writes:
> Once again, Brian slams something he has repeatedly shown little or no
> knowledge of.
>a year.
Which one did you study at? I do know that years ago Villari took on dojos
in other styles that would put his name up and pay the francise fees. A good
way to rapidly increase the size of your organization. Bad if you want to
keep control of what's being taught. That mess was cleared up years ago
though. This sort of thing still goes on though. Local United Studios of
Self Defense, which teach Villari's Shaolin Kempo, recently put up signs
saying "Nick Cerio's Kenpo".
>I know a lot about him & his accomplishments. Fred Villari
>is one of the best fighters out there (He has to be, for promoting
>himself to 10th dan from 2nd dan).
Gee, this sounds like the Hawaiian's on the MA mailing list talking
about Ed Parker. They however claim that Parker was only a Brown Belt
before he set up shop in California.
>However, he declines to
>let others whithin his organization know that his extensive
>background in wrestling has greatly helped him win street fights.
Since when? I've heard some great ones myself from people in the
Villari organizaion. So he uses grappling in his system? Isn't that good?
Kem/npo has had grappling as part of the system going back to Jame Mitose.
>As for the quality of his studios and instructors.... well, let's just
>say I left after a year,
Congraduations.
>and so did most of his California Studios,
The California studios left over money and problems with the way the
the business was run. That was quite a while ago. The California based
United Studios of Self-Defense have not been part of the Villari organizion
for all that time.
>although I have a beef with United Studios as well; they are no
>better.
Then bitch about Charles Matterias. The United Studios is his
organization. Slam Nick Cerio while you're at it. He thinks
enough of Matterias to promote him to 8th dan.
Brian Kholdi
Fred Villari promoted himself from 2nd dan to 10th dan and called
Nick Cerio a "Stupid old man"?
If you don't beleive that I attended a genuine Fred Villari Studio,
I can get into a technical discussion with you over the Katas &
Pinans (sp?).
And quit with this grappling part of Kempo. The few Jiu Jitsu techniques
are practiced just like Jim Carey's farce on an "In Living Color" episode.
I'll never forget the time I took my blue belt test when one of
Fred's top instructors (8th dan at the time), a short man with a
ponytail showed up who displayed his pathetic skills over & over.
I think he came from another style and due to his extensive
ass kissing of Villari he was permitted to hold his former rank
of 8th dan.
In the years since, I've occasionally seen FV & United Studios students
get their butts kicked in open tournaments (Occasionally because that's
how often they show up at open tournaments).
And you don't have to be a grandmaster in a certain style to discover
the organization is full of shit.
You my friend, are bitter that all those years of FV training has
gone to waste. Be a man and admit it.
- Brian
Mark Urbin
My facts are correct. You are the one implying that Villari only trained
under Cerio. This is not the case and has been pointed out to you numerious
times by several different people. You make it sound as if he promoted himself
to 10th dan in Cerio's Kenpo. This is no more true than Chow claiming to be
a Master of Mitose's Kempo or Parker making the same claim of Chow's Kenpo.
>If you don't beleive that I attended a genuine Fred Villari Studio,
I never stated that you did not attend a Villari dojo. I asked because,
as I stated, some where substandard. Those dojos have been long since shut
down or removed from the Villari organization.
>And quit with this grappling part of Kempo.
Excuse me? You are the one stating that Villari uses grappling techniques
that allow him to win consistantly.
>I'll never forget the time I took my blue belt test when one of
>Fred's top instructors (8th dan at the time), a short man with a
>ponytail showed up who displayed his pathetic skills over & over.
>I think he came from another style and due to his extensive
>ass kissing of Villari he was permitted to hold his former rank
>of 8th dan.
Please remember the weeding out that occurred some years ago. Is that
person still a member of Villari's organization?
>You my friend, are bitter that all those years of FV training has
>gone to waste. Be a man and admit it.
Fraid not bud. Sounds more like your 16 year old ego got bruised and
hasn't healed yet.
Michael L. Weishaar
Kholdi says stay away because Villari is no longer involved.
Urbin says check it out.
I have a good couple of years in a
style based on RyuKyu Kempo, so there will be no big transition
in style for me.
I would like to know more about Fred Villari. Where did he get
his rank(from whom), what rank is he, etc. I realize that I
could ask the school I am visiting all of this, but would I really
get an objective opinion on the guy? And a little knowledge
beforehand is a good way to check the integrity of the instructor.
The school is in Palatine IL, near Chicago. This is a relatively
new school, with another being 15 miles away. I really don't plan
on meeting Mr.Villari, but any info on how he promotes students would
be great. The thing is, I hate salesmen, and I don't doubt that I
will get the full pitch when visiting this school.(especially since it
is a new school)
William Keane
>There are about 130 schools teaching Villari's Shaolin Kempo under
>his name and dozens of others who teach his style, but have broken
>away from his organization. These include United Studios of Self
>Defense (headed by a man who was promoted to 7th Dan by Villari and
>since then 8th by Nick Cerio, of Nick Cerio's Kenpo)
Could you do me a favor and name this person please? I know what I
think about Fred Villari's Kempo, having worked out with many former
students of that system that had reached brown and black belt ranks, and
I would just like to check on this out of curiosity?
TIA
Bill
Swartz
Charles Mattera was one of Fred Villari's top Black Belts in his
organization, earning a 7th Dan under Villari. Matera later left
the organization, and was later promoted to 8th Dan by Ciero.
Surely, Ciero has to recognize Villari's rank if he wants to
claim his promotion of Mattera from 7th to 8th Dan is legitamite.
John
--
JOHN A. SWARTZ - The MITRE Corp. Bedford, MA * John_...@iegate.mitre.org
"The Oyster Boys are swimming now. Hear them chatter on the tide.
Of the lost, in a language lost. Hear them chatter on the tide.
(We understand. We understand.) And so do I." -- Blue Oyster Cult
Brian Kholdi
as his fighting skills go. Anyone who promotes himself to 10th dan
and stays there, deserves it. He has received numerous challenges
as a result of promoting himself which he has won. My beef is
with his money-hungry attitude and the substandard quality of his
chain of MA dojos. I wouldn't hesitate to become his student but would
decline to be a volunteer at one of his demonstrations. I've heard he
breaks noses and bones during those events.
- Brian
Brian Kholdi
But he's money hungry and his whole organization lacks fighting skill.
Two questions would answer it all. How often does the instructor have
his students spar? And is it always point sparring or free-for-all.
Those two questions should be asked of all punch & kick style dojos.
BTW, Villari is still involved with his organization.
- Brian
John A. Swartz
Villari system for over 9 years (I currently hold the rank of 3rd Degree
Black Belt), I think that I know something about the Fred Villari
organization. Furthermore, my instructor personally trained under
Grandmaster Villari for many years. I have personally met Fred
Villari, and most of the top-ranked Black Belts currently within his
organization (not to mention a few that have left), and for a while ran
one of his studios in the Boston area.
In article <KHOLDI.94...@lark.csulb.edu>, kho...@csulb.edu (Brian
Kholdi) wrote:
> Excuse me, why don't you check your facts: Are you doubting that
> Fred Villari promoted himself from 2nd dan to 10th dan and called
> Nick Cerio a "Stupid old man"?
As far as what Villari said about Cerio, I do not know -- if that is
his opinion, so be it, and that certainly does not discredit him (hell,
I just heard how Shaquile O'Neal thinks Dream Team II could beat Michael
Jordan and Company of Dream Team I -- does that discredit O'Neal's ability?
Hardly).
As far as Villari "promoting himself from 2nd dan to 10th dan", exactly
what do you claim to know of his martial arts training? Fred Villari
not only earned a Black Belt under Cerio's Kenpo, but also Black Belts in
other styles, including, I believe, Shotokan Karate and Jiu Jitsu. He
has studied other styles both in the U.S. and abroad, and began his
training
in the martial arts at age 7, learning Shaolin Kung-Fu under his father.
He has integrated all of these disciplines into his own style of Shaolin
Kempo Karate -- whether you (or anyone else) believes his rank
of 10th Dan in his system is invalid is immaterial.
>
> If you don't beleive that I attended a genuine Fred Villari Studio,
> I can get into a technical discussion with you over the Katas &
> Pinans (sp?).
I don't doubt that you attended -- my guess is that you attended one of
the few schools that was poorly run (and probably no longer with the
organization), or that you did let your own opinions cloud your judgement
as to the quality of your training. But perhaps you believe your
experience
in the martial arts at that time was superior to your instructors? What
would that be based on?
>
> And quit with this grappling part of Kempo. The few Jiu Jitsu techniques
> are practiced just like Jim Carey's farce on an "In Living Color" episode.
Don't know what you're referring to here. Fred Villari studied both Jiu
Jitsu and wrestling, and grappling is an integral part of the Villari
system.
>
> I'll never forget the time I took my blue belt test when one of
> Fred's top instructors (8th dan at the time), a short man with a
> ponytail showed up who displayed his pathetic skills over & over.
> I think he came from another style and due to his extensive
> ass kissing of Villari he was permitted to hold his former rank
> of 8th dan.
Don't know to whom you are referring -- while I hardly consider myself
qualified to judge the abilities of the 8th Dans in the system, we have
no short men with pathetic skills who hold such high rank. But again,
what experience or expertise of yours are you comparing to this man's
skill? Oh, I see -- you said, "I think . . ." Can you back this up with
more evidence than your own personal views?
>
> In the years since, I've occasionally seen FV & United Studios students
> get their butts kicked in open tournaments (Occasionally because that's
> how often they show up at open tournaments).
Gee, I've seen lots of FV students kick some serious butt in open
tournaments around here (in particular, one of the women Black Belts at
the school I go to happens to be doing quite well in several tournaments
here in the New England area). Perhaps you are generalizing again. Hey,
no one here is claiming that Villari's style is superior to some of the
others. As far as showing up at open tournaments, some do and some don't
(I competed in one open tournament, and did quite respectably, although I
didn't take home a trophy -- I certainly didn't "get my butt kicked". I
never competed in another one because I thought the one I attended was
very poorly organized -- and this was a large tournament) -- since the
Villari organization is so large, they can hold their own tournaments, and
for some of us, that's enough. For those that want more, they are free
to enter open tournaments.
>
> And you don't have to be a grandmaster in a certain style to discover
> the organization is full of shit.
No, and it doesn't take my 3rd Dan to know that you have an axe to
grind, and are letting that come through in these "facts" that you
have presented. I'm sorry you've had a bad experience -- but there
are thousands of us who have had a wonderful experience within the Fred
Villari organization. Should people asking for information about Fred
Villari believe us, or you?
And as far as the organization being full of shit, as I said previously,
I have personally met most of the higher-ups in the organization (of which
included in that group is my instructor, who studied personally under
Fred Villari). I have also had a small hand in running one of Villari's
studios for a few years, and learned much of the business practices of
the organization. I assume that you are admitting to the fact that you
are not a grandmaster -- but, please tell us, what level of experience
or expertise in the martial arts do claim to have which should make me (or
anyone else) believe that you know what you are talking about?
> You my friend, are bitter that all those years of FV training has
> gone to waste. Be a man and admit it.
Well, sorry, but my 9 years of training has certainly not been a waste -
I'm in better shape, have more discipline, better peace of mind, and
have more coordination (just to name a few benefits off the top of my
head) than ever in my life. I have met some wonderful people, and shared
in some great experiences. And that experience will continue even today,
as I help instruct a children's class this afternoon, and attend a Black
Belt workout. If that doesn't fit in with what you consider "being a
man" is . . . I'm sorry but I can not help you.
John
--
"My heart is black, and my lips are cold.
Cities on flame with Rock and Roll.
3,000 guitars, they seem to cry.
My ears will melt, and then my eyes." -- Blue Oyster Cult
Brian Kholdi
: But seriously - can casual GJJ training make one a formidable fighter?
: Their ads certainly seem to imply they believe or want people to believe
: this. But I've yet to hear of someone not named R. Gracie that's
: achieved even close to the reputation they have, despite the continual
: "best art" insistance.
The reason why you haven't heard of someone other than R. Gracie winning
fights may be because you haven't watched the Gracies in Action tape:)s.
One R. Gracie is designated to carry the torch and defend the
family honor for a few years at a time. That person is currently
Royce. I really resent this idea. It sounds more logical to have
a different Gracie fighter participate in the UFCs if proving
the effectiveness of the style is the objective. That way 95% of
the posters to rec.ma won't continuously assert "It's the man
that makes the style and not the other way around".
- Brian
Philip John Stroffolino
>But he's money hungry and his whole organization lacks fighting skill.
>
>Two questions would answer it all. How often does the instructor have
>his students spar? And is it always point sparring or free-for-all.
>
>Those two questions should be asked of all punch & kick style dojos.
No offense, but one could easily twist your words around:
"The Gracies are some of the best fighters out there - few people
dispute that. But they are money hungry, and their naive American
student's egos are disproportionately sized with respects to their
fighting skills."
(joke! ^_^)
But seriously - can casual GJJ training make one a formidable fighter?
Their ads certainly seem to imply they believe or want people to believe
this. But I've yet to hear of someone not named R. Gracie that's
achieved even close to the reputation they have, despite the continual
"best art" insistance.
Are you guys encouraged to enter grappling tournaments or do you settle
for watching Royce & Rickson in action? If you guys don't, who is to
say you're instructors aren't holding back the most useful things and
laughing at you guys all behind your backs while picking your pockets
clean?
If the self-defense worthiness of an art is only to be judged by the
very best affiliated with it, than what is wrong with Fred Villari's
organization?
Craig
: Royce. I really resent this idea. It sounds more logical to have
: a different Gracie fighter participate in the UFCs if proving
: the effectiveness of the style is the objective. That way 95% of
: the posters to rec.ma won't continuously assert "It's the man
: that makes the style and not the other way around".
Why don't the Gracies' do this then. Why not keep Royce Gracie where he is,
the defending champion, and enter another GJJ person that's been in GJJ say
5 years or more and let them join Royce in defending the family system.
Why not let this other GJJ person earn their way to fighting Royce, and
whether he wins or looses he can still be the 2nd person defending GJJ.
The 2nd GJJ person that all future fighters have to go through before they
reach Royce. Or how about this GJJ person always keep reentering future
UFC's like Royce does to defend GJJ, even if he/she doesn't win against
Royce. Just some thoughts on this.
William Keane
>organization, earning a 7th Dan under Villari. Mattera later left
>the organization, and was later promoted to 8th Dan by Cerio.
>Surely, Cerio has to recognize Villari's rank if he wants to
>claim his promotion of Mattera from 7th to 8th Dan is legitamite.
No he doesn't. He didn't promote Mattera to 8th Dan in Fred Villari's
system. He gave Mattera a rank in Nick Cerio's system. Nothing at all
to do with recognizing Villari's rank.
Whenever a student comes into a dojo, kwoon, or whatever from another
school,they are usually tested after a period of time to see what rank
they will have within that particular system. This is based not only on
what they can physically do but, also on what they understand about
what they are doing, and other factors. They are also usually taught
about the new system that they have joined, it's beliefs, some techniques
and kata, before they are tested. They may not be tested for a couple or
few years either. They could also go down in rank, up in rank, or stay
the same rank. It's all down to that particular system/style and has
nothing to do with the rank of the students former instructor. Just the
student themselves.
So,IMO, Nick Cerio does NOT have to recognize Fred Villari at all. Just
Charles Mattera. Fred Villari will only ever be recognized as
shodan under Nick Cerio's system because that is the last rank he was
tested for by Nick Cerio back in the mid 60's.
And Cerio's system changed *dramatically* between the time he ranked
Villari, and 1974 when he fully founded his system. Based on my
experiences with students from Fred Villari's schools, and over 5 years
of studying Nick Cerio's Kenpo.
Bill
Mark Urbin
William Keane <wke...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>>Charles Mattera was one of Fred Villari's top black belts in his
>>organization, earning a 7th Dan under Villari. Mattera later left
>>the organization, and was later promoted to 8th Dan by Cerio.
>>Surely, Cerio has to recognize Villari's rank if he wants to
>>claim his promotion of Mattera from 7th to 8th Dan is legitamite.
>No he doesn't. He didn't promote Mattera to 8th Dan in Fred Villari's
>system. He gave Mattera a rank in Nick Cerio's system.
>Nothing at all to do with recognizing Villari's rank.
Nope, just recognizing the rank Villari gave Mattera.
>Whenever a student comes into a dojo, kwoon, or whatever from another
>school,they are usually tested after a period of time to see what rank
>they will have within that particular system. This is based not only on
>what they can physically do but, also on what they understand about
>what they are doing, and other factors.
Yup. If you ran somebody through this ringer and felt they were only
Shodan or Nidan level, you wouldn't hand them a 8th Dan ranking.
>They are also usually taught
>about the new system that they have joined, it's beliefs, some techniques
>and kata, before they are tested.
In a perfect world yes.
>They may not be tested for a couple or
>few years either. They could also go down in rank, up in rank, or stay
>the same rank. It's all down to that particular system/style and has
>nothing to do with the rank of the students former instructor. Just the
>student themselves.
It has to do with the student yes. It also has to do with what they
have been taught.
>So,IMO, Nick Cerio does NOT have to recognize Fred Villari at all. Just
>Charles Mattera.
I agree. What Cerio recognizes along with Mattera is his training.
My next question would be about Mattera's training. Was his training
entirely under Villari's Shaolin Kempo before he broke away?
>Fred Villari will only ever be recognized as
>shodan under Nick Cerio's system because that is the last rank he was
>tested for by Nick Cerio back in the mid 60's.
He was a Nidan actually. That is his rank in Cerio's system. Cerio
isn't a 10th dan in Chinese Kara-Ho Kenpo either. Betcha Cerio doesn't
claim that either.
>And Cerio's system changed *dramatically* between the time he ranked
>Villari, and 1974 when he fully founded his system.
Yup, Cerio has been evolving his Kenpo over the years.
--
Mark Urbin -- ecl...@world.std.com -- These opinions are mine.
"[Clinton's] Administration is easily the most reckless in interfering with
the integrity of Federal investigative agencies since that of Richard Nixon."
-- NY Times editorial, "White House Ethics Meltdown", 3/4/94