Wing Chun / Praying Mantis Comparison
Mark Manness
I have found a sifu that teaches both Wing Chun and Praying Mantis. I
would like to start learning one or the other and would like some
input into the strengths and weaknesses of both.
I don't ever expect to be a black belt. I'm just looking for
something that has practical self defense applications. I have taken
six months of Wu Wei Gung Fu five years ago and that is the only MA
experience I have.
Thanks for any input.
Randy Schaub
Hi- are you studying with Steve Cottrell? Let me know, and I can give you
some info- if not, let me know what questions you have about the styles
and I'll try to answer them...
Randy
--
Randy Schaub
ra...@meitx.com
/\ /\
/ \_/ \ ____
\_ _/ / / El
/ * * \ /^^^]
\_\O/_/ [ ] ZORRO
/ \ [ /
\ \_ / / BLANCO
[ [ / \/ _/
_[ [ \ /_/
[[[ [[[ [[[
Rene Ritchie
Hi Mark,
All CMA are pretty much the same in the end, so the most important thing is to
find what you like, that way you're more likely to stick with it. If the same
teacher is instructing both, you'll likely receive the highlights anyway.
Mantis, especially Northern, has much more exciting forms. Southern has nice
forms too, but are very different. Wing Chun is quite simple, but it's my
favorite 8)
In article <32BD84...@onramp.net>, Mark Manness <bo...@onramp.net> wrote:
>I have found a sifu that teaches both Wing Chun and Praying Mantis. I
>would like to start learning one or the other and would like some
>input into the strengths and weaknesses of both.
>
>I don't ever expect to be a black belt. I'm just looking for
>something that has practical self defense applications. I have taken
>six months of Wu Wei Gung Fu five years ago and that is the only MA
>experience I have.
>
>Thanks for any input.
Rene Ritchie
mailto:wing...@total.net mailto:webm...@sandtechnology.com
http://www.total.net/~wingchun http://www.sandtechnology.com
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/wingchun
John DeVirgilio
Snip...snip...
> In article <32BD84...@onramp.net>, Mark Manness <bo...@onramp.net>wrote:
>I have found a sifu that teaches both Wing Chun and Praying Mantis. I
>would like to start learning one or the other and would like some
>input into the strengths and weaknesses of both.
>
>I don't ever expect to be a black belt. I'm just looking for
>something that has practical self defense applications. I have taken
>six months of Wu Wei Gung Fu five years ago and that is the only MA
>experience I have.
>
>Thanks for any input.
>
Mark,
Here is my two cents + thirty-six lines of chat....
The Southern Praying Mantis system has over the many decade (since the
late 1600's) been a diquised system for a streamlined version of the
classic southern (Fukien) Sil Lum Dragon & Tiger fighting system. I used
the phase "diquised system" because this particular system of fighting was
a very popular system with the Ming underground rebels. To escape the
brutal slaying of Sil Lum Buddhist monks and their many rebel followers by
the Ching army, many Dragon & Tiger fighters took on a fake names (and
sets) to hide their real fighting lineage. The Chow (Jow?) family were the
keepers of this fighting system and used the fake (disguised) Tong Long
name to throw off the pursing Ching forces.
Three centuries later, many Hakka families still practice a version of
this effective and practical fighting system. Being partially of Hakka
ancestory (and part Italian) myself, I could go on for hours elaborating
on family tradition. IMHO, the Chow (or Jow) family name and the Tong
Long Kuen should be raked with the other famous Sil Lum related families
from the same era...Choi, Mok, Lau, Lee, and Hung. Sorry to say, the Chow
Gar name, like the Fong family of the Fukien White Crane system, remains
relatively unknown to most westerners and many Chinese alike.
Now the nitty gritty....much that is said by contemporary Chinese martial
artists (myself included) is shrouded in myth and legend. However, there
is enough truth in many of the classic Chinese arts that modern day
Chinese martial art historians can trace certain lineages to the "Five
Elders" of the Fukien Sil Lum. The classic lore states that the five
elders named, Fung Do Kuk, Bai Mei, Gee Shin, Mew Hin, and the nun Ng Mui,
were resposible for the simplifying and dessemination of the many fighting
systems to the Chinese rebel underground in the late 1600's. In truth,
there were at least two dozen lesser known Sil Lum monks which were
aligned to least one of the elders and contributed to the teachings of
each elder.
Both the Southern Praying Mantis and the Wing Chun systems can be linked
to the Fukien Sil Lum (Shaolin) Elders. The southern Praying Mantis has
over the years shed much (not all) of its Tiger-Dragon origins and has
taking a distingtive Praying Mantis (insect mimicry) look.
The primary feature that the southern Praying Mantis and Wing Chun
share is the Box System. The box system is an imaginary box with the top
line at the forehead level, the bottom line just below the belly button,
and the side edges being shoulder width. Although the Long arm systems
were thought to be of better benefit for building body fitness, it was the
short/meduim ranged techniques utilizing the box system which was best
suited for actual combat. With the exception of the elder Jee Shin (who
preferred the long arm tactics) the edlers all devised box combat systems.
There were three ways to defend the box and the body's centerline, depending
on the practictioners body frame (heavy, meduim, or light) and type of
expected combat.
The three box posture principles are:
A) Upright-Sunken Chest Tiger Posture: The torso of body in upright with
the chest slightly concave. Both forearms are held out at the box's side
edges. parallel to each other, and with the elbows downward. The posture
was used for the faster meduim framed practitioners. This posture is
widely practiced in the Fukien Bai Hok (White Crane) and Mui Fa (Wu Mei)
Kung Fu systems. The practioner can also choose to keep one or both
forearms close to the body's centerline in combat. The southern Praying
Mantis makes heavy use of both forarm positions and this posture.
B) The Forward Coiled Dragon (Tiger) Spitting Posture: The basic body
torso position is the same as posture "A" except the entire upper body is
leaning forward. This posture effectively shortened the exposed
body torso and closed the lower edge of box. The practioner can
concentrate on defending only the head and face areas. The forearms and
elbows are held either close into the centerline or out at the box's side
edges. This posture gave the body strong resistance to incoming blows
that penetrated through the forearm defences and was best utilized
when fighting multiple attackers or getting under-and-into an attacker
with a longer reach. Both posture A and posture B are the best postures
for offensive and standing your ground jamming techniques, This posture
is widely practiced by the Southern Praying Mantis, Mui Fa, Dragon, Bai
Mei, Yau Kun Moon, and Bai Fu (not in Wing Chun).
C) The Slant Body Crane Shadow: The practioner's body is slanted backward
or offset sideward to one side. The forearms are usually held close to
the centerline. This posture lacks the bases for strong offensive
techniques and is best utilized in defensive retreating, counter fighting,
and defending against knife wielding attackers. Female practitioners and
smaller males who's smaller (lighter) body frames rarely allowed for
absorbing heavy blows were often taught this posture. The Crane
Shadow posture was better suited for backward and side stepping standoff
defensive techniques. The pactioners of this posture prefer to trap their
over-extended attacker(s) before counter attacking.
The classic Wing Chun techniques center around both postures "A" and "C".
Some heavier body framed teachers preferring posture A, while the lighter
body framed teachers preferring posture B techniques. The classic White
Eyebrow and Southern Praying Mantis techniques tend to be more aggressive
and use postures "A" and "B". Which box system you eventually choose will
depend on your combat focus (artist or warrior attitude), and your body
frame.
Generally speaking, Wing Chun is easier to learn while the southern
Praying Mantis utilizes a better posture to absorb blows that sometimes
break through your defenses. The best of both worlds can still be found
in your original art of Wu Mei. I hope this helps you on your journey
into the world of Chinese martial arts.
I am falling asleep, time to sign off...Aloha from Hawaii,
John F. Di Virgilio
William Chang
> Snip...snip...
>
> > In article <32BD84...@onramp.net>, Mark Manness <bo...@onramp.net>wrote:
> >I have found a sifu that teaches both Wing Chun and Praying Mantis. I
> >would like to start learning one or the other and would like some
> >input into the strengths and weaknesses of both.
> >
> >I don't ever expect to be a black belt. I'm just looking for
> >something that has practical self defense applications. I have taken
> >six months of Wu Wei Gung Fu five years ago and that is the only MA
> >experience I have.
> >
> >Thanks for any input.
> >
>
> I am falling asleep, time to sign off...Aloha from Hawaii,
> John F. Di Virgilio
and move around alot. But footwork is even more important than usual,
because a Praying Mantis stylist uses whole body power alot to
compensate for the relatively less powerful but faster strikes they
practice(for hard styles). Soft Preying mantis, relys on first
unbalancing an opponent and then striking when your off-balance, since
damage and injury is most fatal at that point. Parying Mantis in my
thoughts is an offensive art, whereas Wing Chun seems to me a more
passive art where you are better reacting. In my experience Wing Chun
has less forms to practice, therefore you can be more proficient in it
since you have less to practice. But in my opinion Praying mantis has a
wider range, but in result you have more to practice and a longer time
to become better at it.
In the end you should try both to see which you prefer, since your the
one practicing. Who knows which you'll like!
AC
William Chang
> Snip...snip...
>
> > In article <32BD84...@onramp.net>, Mark Manness <bo...@onramp.net>wrote:
> >I have found a sifu that teaches both Wing Chun and Praying Mantis. I
> >would like to start learning one or the other and would like some
> >input into the strengths and weaknesses of both.
> >
> >I don't ever expect to be a black belt. I'm just looking for
> >something that has practical self defense applications. I have taken
> >six months of Wu Wei Gung Fu five years ago and that is the only MA
> >experience I have.
> >
> >Thanks for any input.
> >
>
> John F. Di Virgilio
Norman Tom
In article <32C22A...@ms1.hinet.net>,
William Chang <wt...@ms1.hinet.net> wrote:
[snip]
>Northern style Preying mantis is like most northern styles. You dodge
>and move around alot. But footwork is even more important than usual,
>because a Praying Mantis stylist uses whole body power alot to
>compensate for the relatively less powerful but faster strikes they
>practice(for hard styles)...
[snip]
Speed and mobility are key elements in Northern Mantis. The idea of
power is interesting. If power is energy per unit time, and energy
is proportional to mass and the square of velocity - for a given
velocity, the greater the mass that can be accelerated, the greater
the power generated.
Faster strikes are not necessarily less powerful. The "bung chui" or
back fist variation is a classic power technique. The motion can be
streamlined for speed. Combined with an advancing footwork, waist
torquing, a drop of the center of gravity height, and a good follow
through, you get a pretty brutal power move. Here you have not just
the mass of the fist and arm generating power, but the entire mass
of the body applied to the target through the fist. Coordinating
all of these motions together to occur over the shortest possible
time gives explosive power.
Speed is not just your speed, but relative speed in this case of fist
and target - so the setup on your opponent is pretty important. As far
as striking speed, there are places to pick up speed aside from trying
to hit faster.
Randy Schaub
Alejandro Alexandra wrote:
> Oh wait! Almost forgot!, Mantis is cool. There is a drunken part that you might
> get to learn. And what else....er....that's it...huh...
>
> Regardo,
> Alejandro Alexandra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey- funny you should mention that drunken form. It turns out I know the
instructor Mark was referring to- and he IS learning the Drunken form
soon- from sifu Henry Chung in Michigan, I think... That would RULE!
Maybe if I train harder, he'll teach it to me one day, heh, heh...
Alejandro Alexandra
Mark Manness <bo...@onramp.net> wrote:
->I have found a sifu that teaches both Wing Chun and Praying Mantis. I
->would like to start learning one or the other and would like some
->input into the strengths and weaknesses of both.
->
->I don't ever expect to be a black belt. I'm just looking for
->something that has practical self defense applications. I have taken
->six months of Wu Wei Gung Fu five years ago and that is the only MA
->experience I have.
->
->Thanks for any input.
Hey Yo! What's up?!
Yeah That's funny that you should mention that cause I've been doing Seven
Stars
Mantis for 20 years and just a year or two ago, my brother, who also trained
with Seven Stars with me made a comment that my Mantis looked like Wing Chun.
Our Wing Chun's exposure comes mainly from limited interactions with it's
practitioners and instructional tapes. But there are clear distinctions that
you can draw between Mantis (Northern) and Wing Chun.
The basic ones is that our Mantis Stances are much lower, and there is greater
emphasis on stand up grabbing and releasing control with the hands. Wing Chun
relies on less effort in moving the opponent's positions and arms and seek the
openning to strike. Mantis, OTOH, seeks to control, pluck, jerk, push and pull
the opponent for either an oppening to strike or in seizures, locks and pins.
Stances in Mantis are a little lower and we wish to uproot/off-balance the
opponent by interferring with their space with our foot structure.
In the noted, Chi-Sau exercises in Wing Chun, you learn to find an easy
openning within your opponent's defenses for you to strike. In Mantis, Pak-Sau
(in Seven Star) exercises, the emphasis is striking/off-balancing and
pinning/imobolizing your opponent's arms. This Seven Stars Mantis drill is not
much dissimilar to Tai-Chi's Pushhands but contact, in mantis, is preferred to
be made with your hands rather than the 'decentralized' forearms and hands in
Tai-Chi.
The Mantis that I know also emphasis numerous sweeps as soon as contact is made
with the hands.
So...um.. I don't know if I have really said what's needed to be said or if I
am even close to making a point... huh....huh.. :-P
My head feels kind of funny right now....huh....
So er.....like, that's what I think of Mantis and
Wing Chun....huh..yeah...huh...
Alejandro Alexandra
Randy Schaub <ra...@meitx.com> wrote:
->
->Hey- funny you should mention that drunken form. It turns out I know the
->instructor Mark was referring to- and he IS learning the Drunken form
->soon- from sifu Henry Chung in Michigan, I think... That would RULE!
->Maybe if I train harder, he'll teach it to me one day, heh, heh...
->
->Randy
Whoa that's cool!! You do Mantis dude? Mantis rulez!!!!!!!!! It's the kick ass
quick to pick up external with the bad ass internal stability power and soft
locks, throws and swipes!
Henry Chung? Do you know what lineage he came from? For some reason, half of
the planet right now seems to be filled with the Wong Hon Fun's students and
grand students. But it's my teacher, Kwok Cho Chiu in Kowloon, Hong Kong who is
the kick ass master!!!! The Ultimate Kung fu dude!
Drunken is hard man. God damn what zup wit dat funky flips and sweeps and all
that.
Cool,
Alejandro Alexandraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Randy Schaub
Alejandro Alexandra wrote:
> Whoa that's cool!! You do Mantis dude? Mantis rulez!!!!!!!!! It's the kick ass
> quick to pick up external with the bad ass internal stability power and soft
> locks, throws and swipes!
>
> Henry Chung? Do you know what lineage he came from? For some reason, half of
> the planet right now seems to be filled with the Wong Hon Fun's students and
> grand students. But it's my teacher, Kwok Cho Chiu in Kowloon, Hong Kong who is
> the kick ass master!!!! The Ultimate Kung fu dude!
>
> Drunken is hard man. God damn what zup wit dat funky flips and sweeps and all
> that.
>
> Cool,
> Alejandro Alexandraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Ja, Ich lerne Mantis! It rocks! Yeah, Chung is, according to my friend, a
wong Hon Fun descendant- Who's your sifu from? You actually live in Hong
Kong?
Yeah, but i think drunken will come easy to me as i have learned to live
so much of my stinkin' life that way :)!
Wong Fei Randy
Alejandro Alexandra
Randy Schaub <ra...@meitx.com> wrote:
->Alejandro Alexandra wrote:
->> Whoa that's cool!! You do Mantis dude? Mantis rulez!!!!!!!!! It's the kick
-ass
->> quick to pick up external with the bad ass internal stability power and
soft
->> locks, throws and swipes!
->>
->> Henry Chung? Do you know what lineage he came from? For some reason, half
of
->> the planet right now seems to be filled with the Wong Hon Fun's students
and
->> grand students. But it's my teacher, Kwok Cho Chiu in Kowloon, Hong Kong
who -is
->> the kick ass master!!!! The Ultimate Kung fu dude!
->>
->> Drunken is hard man. God damn what zup wit dat funky flips and sweeps and
-all
->> that.
->>
->> Cool,
->> Alejandro Alexandraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
->
->
->Ja, Ich lerne Mantis! It rocks! Yeah, Chung is, according to my friend, a
->wong Hon Fun descendant- Who's your sifu from? You actually live in Hong
->Kong?
->
->Yeah, but i think drunken will come easy to me as i have learned to live
->so much of my stinkin' life that way :)!
->
->Wong Fei Randy
Yeah man! Tong Long Kuen rocks!!!! (er. wait....huh..what's Ja Ich Lerne
Mantis?
My Sifu? He is from Canton dude!! He rocks!!! He was with the Ching Wu
Association with the Lo Gwon Yiu and the gang! Won Hon Fun was his Si-Dai,
dude!
Yeah man, hanged out with my Sifu in Tsim Sha Tsui in Kowloon man!!!!!
Word! Power to you brother! Drunken Power!!!!
Chen Sam Fungjandro
Randy Schaub
Alejandro Alexandra wrote:
> Yeah man, hanged out with my Sifu in Tsim Sha Tsui in Kowloon man!!!!!
Coooool- I've never even left the states, nless you count Nuevo Laredo...
> Word! Power to you brother! Drunken Power!!!!
>
> Chen Sam Fungjandro
I'll surely develop lots of drunken power at tomorrow nights party- Happy
New Year!
David A. Lyons
Alejandro Alexandra wrote:
>
>
> My Sifu? He is from Canton dude!! He rocks!!! He was with the Ching Wu
> Association with the Lo Gwon Yiu and the gang! Won Hon Fun was his Si-Dai,
Canton, Georgia? That's not too far from where I live.
--
David Lyons
http://g50mc.org/members/lyonsd
Alejandro Alexandra
->> My Sifu? He is from Canton dude!! He rocks!!! He was with the Ching Wu
->> Association with the Lo Gwon Yiu and the gang! Won Hon Fun was his Si-Dai,
->
->Canton, Georgia? That's not too far from where I live.
No way!!!! Canton in Southern China!!
Though he has been living in Hong Kong for several decades now.
->
->--
->David Lyons
->http://g50mc.org/members/lyonsd
正哥
Alejandro Alexandra wrote:
Sorry but I only saw this post now, so what Praying mantis are you
talking about?
AC
Randy Schaub
I believe we were discussing the merits and satisfying completeness of
chi sing tang lang, of which we were both humble students. :)
Norman Tom
In article <32D2A1...@meitx.com>, Randy Schaub <ra...@meitx.com> wrote:
[deleted]
>I believe we were discussing the merits and satisfying completeness of
>chi sing tang lang, of which we were both humble students. :)
>
>Randy
---
Re 7-stars and humble... My teacher would sometimes say, "If I think
that I am nothing, what does that make you? The student of nothing??"
Sometimes after seeing one of us realize some deep insight into a
technique he was teaching us, our teacher would smile and show us a
small variation that hinted to us that there was something even
more beyond what we thought we knew. Then he would see if we could
figure out what the next level would be.
Reminded us to practice instead of stopping to think too highly of
ourselves.
Norman.
to...@uclink.berkeley.edu
PSpier
I train in Ling Wood Chuan-Wing Chun Kung Fu Combat Style. I would have
to say that in my experience, praying mantis is southern style is very
similar to wing chun. Both in fact perform a similar version of the wing
chun chisao techniques, used for "sparring" of sorts. The praying mantis
style performs their chisao in a circular motion. Wing Chun is a vertical
approach to it. Praying Mantis offers its practicioners a "sneaky"
approach to fighting their opponent while wing chun is more of a head on
direct approach, requiring less effort. Ling Wood Chuan-Wing Chun differs
from traditional wing chun in that we heavily employ Chin Na, joint
locking techniques and look to disable the opponents possible counter
offensive before they are able to make it by treating the lead elbow and
the lead leg and then applyin lever, geometrics to the take down. For
more information check out our site at:
Randy Schaub
word.
William Chang
Randy Schaub wrote:
You do remember me saying that I practiced Liu He Tang Lang, don't you?
AC
William Chang
PSpier wrote:
>
> I train in Ling Wood Chuan-Wing Chun Kung Fu Combat Style. I would have
Oh okay I practice Northern Preying Mantis. We use footwork more and
full body blows.
AC
Randy Schaub
Actually- I have forgotten entirely the content of this thread- why do
you ask? Did I say something? I thought I was talking about seven stars
with someone... I'm confused now...
Randy Schaub
bill...@juno.com
Why isnt there being a comparison of WC and Sothern styles of praying
mantis?