Aikido plus what?

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Joshua Konstadt

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Mar 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/24/99
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I'm a beginner in Aikido. For a variety of reasons (let's assume they're
valid) I'd like to study another martial art. Since it's probably
relevant, I'll specify the following reason:

- simple curiosity
- desire to improve atemi since, although I like my dojo, we don't we
really focus on it
- a chance to practice against other attacks
- the chance to spar (or compete) with contact

Does anyone have any advice about which MA might complement Aikido well
and address these concerns.

------
Joshua Konstadt
jo...@konstadt.com
This message provided "as is" without respect to warranties implied or
expressed.

Mehran Habibi

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Mar 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/24/99
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Joshua Konstadt wrote:

> <snip>


> Does anyone have any advice about which MA might complement Aikido well
> and address these concerns.
>

In terms of 'compliment'(that is, offering comthing that aikido might not:),
why not boxing?.

Mehran


MrNiceJai

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Mar 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/24/99
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Tai Chi in my opinion is the art that compliments Aikido.. but what I sense
you wanting is more combat practicality so I suggest you trying either judo or
jujitsu.

Gizmo

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Mar 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/24/99
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There are some T;ai Chi instructors who focus on the martial aspects
including chin-na and swai-jow (sp?)

You still must spend a long period practicing the form and the basic
principles which underly the form.

Probably Chen style T;ai Chi would be the best.

Good luck,


--
Gizmo
(mr...@lvcm.com

MrNiceJai <mrni...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990324171445...@ng-fv1.aol.com...

Todd D. Ellner

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Mar 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/24/99
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Joshua Konstadt <jo...@konstadt.com> wrote:
>I'm a beginner in Aikido. For a variety of reasons (let's assume they're
>valid) I'd like to study another martial art. Since it's probably
>relevant, I'll specify the following reason:
[snip]

The reasons you gave were all excellent ones. But I would highly recommend
you stay away from cross-training for a while. Get a good foundation in
your Aikido first, and then branch out. It will save you a lot of problems
in the middle-to-long run.
--
Todd Ellner | Excess of sorrow laughs. Excess of joy weeps.
tel...@cs.pdx.edu | --William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
(503)493-4431 |

Boo SW

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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Personally, I think certain aspects of Judo would make an excellent "addition"
to Aikido training.


Jussi Häkkinen

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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(clip)

> Personally, I think certain aspects of Judo would make an excellent
"addition"
>to Aikido training.
(clip)

So does every other classical budo-style. I'd recommend Japanese Ju-Jutsu
(no BJJ hoax) or maybe some old style Taijutsu (no, Taijutsu is not a
Ninjutsu. Taijutsu is other name of "body combat" like Ju-Jutsu).
Those would apply the knowledge of roots for aikido-ka. They also would
serve as "combat" trainings for that very formal art (that REALLY works in
combat, yet takes at least a decade to be effective.)
Also, some newer budo - styles may interest you: Okinawan Karate and
Kano-style Ju-Jutsu (also known as Judo, lately). :-)
If aikido-ka wants to see where the technique comes from, I suggest him/her
Iaido. Aikido rises from the movements of that sword art, with a mixture to
Ju-Jutsu.

All those styles are Japanese. Why? Because I doubt that a true aikido-ka
would ever train anything else but an japanese art - except maybe some old,
chinese way of fighting.

-Jussi-
Finland

Bram C. Vogelaar

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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"Jussi Häkkinen" wrote:

>
> All those styles are Japanese. Why? Because I doubt that a true aikido-ka
> would ever train anything else but an japanese art - except maybe some old,
> chinese way of fighting.

Xcuse me?? Why wouldn't train a 'true' Aikidoka only Japanese arts.
In other words: you can't be a 'true' Aikidoka if you also a study art from
<Korea, Filipines, Indonesia, Thailand, England, Birma, India, etc> (pick any).

Very curious in your reply.....


See ya,


Bram Vogelaar


SeiserL

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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In article <7dbnfc$p3t$1...@usenet40.supernews.com>, Joshua Konstadt
<jo...@konstadt.com> writes:

>- simple curiosity
>- desire to improve atemi since, although I like my dojo, we don't we
> really focus on it
>- a chance to practice against other attacks
>- the chance to spar (or compete) with contact

Since you request involves atemi, I would have to recommend a striking art. I
like Tae Kwoon Do because it is basic, linear, well organized, has
competitions, and is easily assessable.

Good luck.

Lynn
Tenshinkai Aikido/Lucaylucay Kali


"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our
training." Train well. KWATZ!
Lynn Seiser, PhD MFCC (Sei...@AOL.com)
Informative pages at http://members.aol.com/SeiserL/index.html
"Change is Natural & Inevitable"


Aikidopony

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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I totally agree with Todd's answer to Joshua, in that it is much better,
especially when just beginning in Aikido that you do not train any other arts.
It can be very confusing and causes one to actually fall behind in Aikido,
because of the nature of Aikido training.

I myself have been training in Aikido (Aikikai) for 5 years, and in the
beginning, I too tried to take American Kenpo at the same time along with Tai
Chi and the Aikido. Even though I learned what I needed from the Kenpo (kicks,
punches, etc.) I had to quit (both the Kenpo and Tai
Chi )after 6 months because I was falling behind in Aikido and sensei kept
telling me I was not relaxing. Although what I learned was helpful for atemi
it was very confusing, and physically taxing, taking those arts all at the same
time. Having said that however, the Tai Chi was the least confusing to me as
it was more compatible with Aikido. So if you must train another discipline,
try Tai Chi Chuan/Taijiquan (Yang or Chen style). But do wait until you have
had at least 6-9 months of Aikido training before you start the Tai Chi.

I am now beginning training in Pentjak Silat, but since I have had those 5
years of Aikido behind me, I no longer become confused between the arts due to
my strong foundation of Aikido training.

By the way, their IS one other art that would actually benefit your Aikido
training, and that is Iaido - as all Aikido movements are based on sword
movements, and learning Iaido would maybe even enhance your Aikido
techniques....discuss this option with your sensei first though, as he/she may
know where you might find Iaido classes.

Good Luck - From another Aikido-ka

Jussi Häkkinen

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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(klip)

>Xcuse me?? Why wouldn't train a 'true' Aikidoka only Japanese arts.
>In other words: you can't be a 'true' Aikidoka if you also a study art from
><Korea, Filipines, Indonesia, Thailand, England, Birma, India, etc> (pick
any).
>
>Very curious in your reply.....
(klip)

Many aikido-ka's are traditionalists. I suppose they want to get into
"roots" of their style. I know many of those countries have their own unique
systems, yet I think that those old japanese arts (from same culture) would
blend in and support their practice most.

I, by myself, have interest for towards chinese and indian arts and their
possible shared roots, yet I have yet to find a teacher that would know
enough. I want information, not necessarily training.
Also, classic english arts - like umbrella-fighting - rise interest in me!
Those old ways that gentlemen defended themselves and their party always are
great.

There's the answer. Open for many questions and debates, yet I'm an
traditionalist and try to stay on my roots.

Yours,

Jussi

Chas

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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Aikidopony wrote:
> I am now beginning training in Pentjak Silat, but since I have had those 5
> years of Aikido behind me, I no longer become confused between the arts due to
> my strong foundation of Aikido training.

We have had a number of aikidoka join with us for practice (pentjak
silat/kuntao) and have found the arts to be quite compatible. The
practitioners have been from a number of different styles of aikido- we
have representative schools from a number of lineages here in Denver-
all of them seem to do well as they come in.
I think that the 'relaxation' learned by aikidoka is one of the reasons,
the 'blending' with the opponent is another- sensitivity to his balance
and weight distribution is another (for throwing applications)-
Do you find the same? What style of PSilat are you studying, with whom?
Best wishes-

Chas

terrell gibbs

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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In article <7dbnfc$p3t$1...@usenet40.supernews.com>, Joshua Konstadt
<jo...@konstadt.com> wrote:

:I'm a beginner in Aikido. For a variety of reasons (let's assume they're
:valid) I'd like to study another martial art. Since it's probably
:relevant, I'll specify the following reason:

:
:- simple curiosity

:- desire to improve atemi since, although I like my dojo, we don't we
:really focus on it
:- a chance to practice against other attacks
:- the chance to spar (or compete) with contact

:
:Does anyone have any advice about which MA might complement Aikido well
:and address these concerns.
:

I'm not sure that it's a good idea to complicate things when you are a
beginner. You might want to get a little aikido under your belt before
you supplement with other arts. That being said, the ideal art to
supplement aikido is probably judo. In many ways, you can think of judo as
"what to do when aikido fails." Two situations in which aikido tends to
have difficulty (although it is not without options) are when an opponent
manages to close to body-to-body contact range, or when you and your
opponent end up rolling around on the ground together. Both are situations
in which judo excels. Judo also includes a form of free sparring
(randori), which many (although not all) aikido systems lack. Also, the
central judo principle of "force embraces force," while not quite the same
as the aikido principle of "force merges with force," is close enough that
the two do not conflict greatly, and can sometimes synergise. Another
crucial skill--falling--is common to both systems.

Chris Newton

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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Joshua Konstadt wrote...

>I'm a beginner in Aikido. For a variety of reasons (let's
>assume they're valid) I'd like to study another martial art
>Since it's probably relevant, I'll specify the following reason:
>
>- simple curiosity
>- desire to improve atemi since, although I like my dojo,
>we don't we really focus on it
>- a chance to practice against other attacks
>- the chance to spar (or compete) with contact
>
>Does anyone have any advice about which MA might
>complement Aikido well and address these concerns.


Hi Joshua,

I would like to start by echoing the caveat given by others: starting
a second style when you're still a beginner in your first can lead to
more confusion than it's worth. That said, I would suggest the
following as likely candidates.

You could try a Karate style. This would address all of your stated
reasons. I suspect Karate styles would work particularly well with
Aikido because of the common Japanese root - the overall "feel" will
be complementary to Aikido, the terminology will probably be the same
where it applies so you won't be confused unnecessarily, etc. If you
prefer a less formal striking style, go for something like boxing,
Muay Thai or kickboxing as is your preference. In addition to being
good styles themselves, the reality (training against attacks by an
opponent who *will* hit you if you don't move) will sharpen your
Aikido no end.

If you prefer a grappling style to a striking one, I can't suggest
better than Judo. Again, you have the common background, and the
skills in Aikido and Judo fit together beautifully. Jiu Jitsu would
be another possibility here, but classical Jiu Jitsu is a bit close to
Aikido to make it worthwhile studying both at once, IMHO. Of course,
you probably won't have a good striking art in your repertoire if you
combine Aikido with one of these arts, so this may not be quite what
you had in mind.

As a final suggestion, if your Aikido contains a lot of weapon work,
you might look at weapon arts. For stick and knife, the Filipino or
Indonesian martial arts are hard to beat, and they too would address
all of your reasons. Alternatively, if you want something with
classical weapons to complement your Aikido, learn about the sword -
study Iaido, or maybe Kendo. There's a surprising overlap in
principles there as well, but that's getting a bit further from what
you originally said.

Hopefully some idea in there will appeal. Again, though, I would
stress that you may be better off studying just Aikido for a couple of
years before adding a second art.

Regards,
Chris

--
Please reply to the newsgroup on which this text is posted.
If a private reply is appropriate, remove "spamfree." from my address.

Todd D. Ellner

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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In article <7dcv86$hus$1...@plaza.suomi.net>,

Jussi Häkkinen <unin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>(clip)
>> Personally, I think certain aspects of Judo would make an excellent
>>"addition" to Aikido training.

>So does every other classical budo-style.
Semantic thingy here. In a very real sense Judo and Aikido are the
paradigmatic modern budo (cf. Draeger for a lot more on this).
They had roots in the older traditions, but the training methods,
the focus, even the techniques were geared towards the new, post-
Perry Japan.

The older Japanese martial arts are a different kettle of udon entirely.

>I'd recommend Japanese Ju-Jutsu (no BJJ hoax)

BJJ is hardly a hoax. It is supreme at its particular area of emphasis,
and its roots are in old pre-WWII Judo. It diverged from them as is only
natural. So did today's Judo. Perhaps more so.

[snip]

>If aikido-ka wants to see where the technique comes from, I suggest him/her
>Iaido. Aikido rises from the movements of that sword art, with a mixture to
>Ju-Jutsu.

Daito Ryu still exists. If you want Aikido's roots look no further.

>All those styles are Japanese. Why? Because I doubt that a true aikido-ka
>would ever train anything else but an japanese art - except maybe some old,
>chinese way of fighting.

Why not? If someone wants to cross-train there are plenty of other things
out there. I'd say find a martial art which has a proven track record;
Billy Bob's American Kenpo-Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu[*] is probably still under
construction; with some other things quality assurance is a little easier.
Most of all (and this supersedes rule #1) find the best teacher you
can who can fight, teach, and show some understanding of the basic laws
and principles of his or her system.

It doesn't have to be Japanese to be good. We have a number of good Aikido
practitioners in Steve Plinck's Sera class. I don't know how if they qualify
as "true aikido-ka"; that's a theological question. But they had put in a
number of years of hard work with reputable Aikido teachers.
--
Todd Ellner | The most sublime act is to set another before you.

Todd D. Ellner

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Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
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walter kopitov <ro...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>You should train in Nihon Goshin Aikido. This system incorporatres the =
>strikes of Karate , the throw of Judo and the principles of evasion and =
>joint locks of Aikido. One System that is complete, if you want more =
>info chek this out http://www.bestweb.net/~ronin/

I knew it. Whenever anyone says "What should I train in?" there is
always some yahoo who will chime in "My style. It's the best one out
there."

Eric Berge

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Mar 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/26/99
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Joshua Konstadt wrote:
>
> I'm a beginner in Aikido. For a variety of reasons (let's assume they're

> valid) I'd like to study another martial art.

Don't. Wait until you get to be about a Nidan in Aikido, that is, to have
gotten to a level of skill at which you can demonstrate the principles of
the art against a skilled opponent who is trying to stop you. And BTW -
you're not a beginner until your teachers give you a Shodan (that's
what Shodan means - "first level").

> - desire to improve atemi since, although I like my dojo, we don't we
> really focus on it
> - a chance to practice against other attacks
> - the chance to spar (or compete) with contact

IMO, western Boxing is a much better striking complement to things like
Aikido and Judo; the light, upright footwork and flow integrate with
these arts much more easily than most Karate styles.

Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
-----------------------------------------
Clay lies still, but blood's a rover
Breath's a ware that will not keep
Up, lad! When the journey's over
There'll be time enough to sleep.
- A.E.Housman, "Reveille"
-----------------------------------------

BobSMan

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Mar 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/27/99
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Eric Berge <e_db...@ibm.net> writes:

>Wait until you get to be about a Nidan in Aikido, that is, to have
>gotten to a level of skill at which you can demonstrate the principles of
>the art against a skilled opponent who is trying to stop you. And BTW -
>you're not a beginner until your teachers give you a Shodan (that's
>what Shodan means - "first level").

Several people have made this comment. I'll just add my agreement to it.

>IMO, western Boxing is a much better striking complement to things like
>Aikido and Judo; the light, upright footwork and flow integrate with
>these arts much more easily than most Karate styles.

I'd suggest Baguazhang. The footwork and general strategy of the art are
probably the closest to those of Aikido you'll find in any of the arts. After
enough practice, you may even have trouble telling the difference.

Bob Sisselman


s

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Mar 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/27/99
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Fillipino martial arts (like modern arnis) can be a good complement to any other
martial arts. Arnis seems to teach no nonsense techniques and there is some
freedom in how certain things can be done. It is not much of a punching art
though, if that is what you are looking for....

mudv...@dravanet.hu

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Mar 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/28/99
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>
> IMO, western Boxing is a much better striking complement to things like
> Aikido and Judo; the light, upright footwork and flow integrate with
> these arts much more easily than most Karate styles.

It is funny. In a sense I agree with you. Judo Randori has a flow. You get
sokmething similar in Western boxing. But in Judo's atemi wasa, what you get
on the one hand is a lot like the Strikes in shotokan Karate, in that they
start from a range that you actually have to close the range by taking a step
at least to connect. The second are also karate like (maybe more comparable
to Gojo or Uechi ryu?), but the Range is really close, and usually just
requires a turn of the hips, but the blows are delivered with power froma
rotation of the whole body. The longer range techniques you can see in the
Goshin Jutsu no Kata and the shorter range techniques are there in the Kime
no Kata and the Zenyo Kokumin Taiku. Most Judo Dojo don't get into this
much, but I think it is a really interesting area of study.

What is interesting is that when I finally got to a judo dojo that actually
trained in the atemi wasa, what I found was that my Judo throwing techniques
started to change. It was like the flow was there, but I began to throw much
more explosively (snappy) because I was really harnessing the hip turn and
body rotation, like you get in karate punches and kicks. This started to
made my standing (throwing) technique a lot stronger and more dynamic.

We still do a lot (much much) more randori wasa than self defense techniques,
but I can see now how the way the body dynamics work is really (or should
really be) the same.

As to what to combine Aikido with... depends on what you are looking for. If
you (the original poster) want(s) to punch and kick because that looks like
fun, then do that. If you like to grapple, then Judo, wrestling or BJJ or
something like that. If you don't do what appeals to you, then it is hard to
stick with anything, no matter how great it is. I don't believe that Aikido
is a great first choice for self defense, at least not the way it is taught
in about 90% of the dojos you might walk into. But then again, it is a great
movement culture, and there are some interesting principles that you can
learn from it that you can apply to other arts later on. And sometimes the
work outs can be fun, and you get to wear those groovy Hakama.

Jon

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Ellis Amdur

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Mar 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/28/99
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In article <7dlk1u$6j0$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, mudv...@dravanet.hu wrote:

> >
> > IMO, western Boxing is a much better striking complement to things like
> > Aikido and Judo; the light, upright footwork and flow integrate with
> > these arts much more easily than most Karate styles.
>

{snip}


>
> As to what to combine Aikido with... depends on what you are looking for.

I know of only a few people who have truly combined aikido with something
else - most people simply superimpose the second art on aikido creating a
mess. On the other hand:

Get any one of the videos of Nishio Shoji thru Aiki News (Aikido
Journal). Nishio, who started in appr. 1950, has seamlessly combined
aikido with judo, karate, and elements from several koryu (jo and iai),
all of which he is a very high ranking practitioner. He is brilliant
technically, as well as being a gentleman - and in regards to the
perennial question of aikido's effectiveness - there is no doubt about
Nishio's effectiveness.

Kuroiwa Yoshio, currently infirm, was a brilliant middleweight boxer in
1950's Japan (and streetfighter too). It's a long story but he got into
aikido, studying briefly with Ueshiba as an in-house disciple - but
circumstances required that he do most of his work on his own, and he
combined boxing and aikido in an amazing way. His boxing was primarily
hooks and upper cuts and very short "standing fist" jabs - all body weight
punches with never an extended arm. He "reversed" aikido which most
people effect by trying to have your opponent move around you at the
center - he, a boxer, moved around the immobilized opponent - immobilized
perhaps by atemi, and more by unbalancing, by footwork, etc. If you
imagine that he was dancing around on the balls of his feet, nothing
could be further than the truth. Almost looks like pa-kua, done very
efficiently (no big dramatic moves). No videos on the man - he teaches a
few people in Japan, and honestly, no one seems to have "got" it. His
strikes are largely implied - he doesn't do "boxing that ends in wrist
locks." Another gentleman. Jeez can he hit tho', despite being emaciated
by illness and half-blind.

Finally, Mochizuchi Minoru, whose Yoseikan budo is a syncretic mix of
aikido, judo, and karate. What I have seen in demos seems to be a martial
curriculum with sections - the aikido section, the atemi/karate section,
the judo section, etc. However, written accounts suggest that they all
come together at higher levels. There is, by reputation, an excellent
teacher, non-Japanese, 6th dan, in Canada. I've read some of his work
over the years and he seems like an impressive guy.

Best

--
Ellis Amdur
EdgeWork
eam...@halcyon.com
http://www.enso-company.com/edgework.html

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