Mike's 2/97 Whittling tests

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justme

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Mar 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/2/97
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What follows are the results of another series of tests that I did for
my own amusement and edification, in an attempt to develop a very
simple "do-it-yourself" standardized test to "quantify" ordinary
knives.

For this test, I used 1" Oak dowels since they are commonly available
cheaply throughout most of the US. (In my area, they vary from
$1-$2.50 for each 3' dowel. I marked 1" Oak dowels every 2" and then
"whittled" a point onto the dowels as fast and efficiently as I could
with each knife and counted and recorded the number of strokes or cuts
and recorded the time it took using a stopwatch. I repeated this (3)
times with each knife and averaged the results. What you see below are
the averages of the (3) tests. It's important to point out to those
who want to try this, (and I encourage you all to test your blades),
that marking the wood and only whittling all area forward of the line
is necessary to prevent random taper lengths. It also gives you an
easy cutoff point for the next one. Also, revolving the rod is
important to create a concentric proper point. A proper point is
defined as causing minor pain when pressed with the thumb, and should
be able to put a 1/16" hole in taut newsprint when twirled lightly
with just contact pressure. It's also very important to average the
results of (3) or more tests, since, often the results from a single
test are very misleading.

To test for sharpness, before and after, I clothespinned a single
sheet of newsprint from a string, and tested the blades to see if they
would cut a smooth horizontal line between the fine text, while
applying just enough tension to the newpaper with my off hand to give
a slightly taut edge. In my experience, a blade that will cleanly cut
between lines of standard newstext without tearing or ripping into the
print, will definitely shave arm hair. All the blades tested would do
this at the start. The sharpest would cut free hanging newspaper!
(It's worth mentioning, that the cutability of np varies greatly with
humidity.) I'll post edge retention comments in an immediate followup
post.

I've categorized my results, and admit that the categories are
somewhat random. A good benchmark for future tests is the lowly
utility knife. Knives that can better a utility knife in this test are
indeed good performers. I would expect that some of you will get
vastly different results from mine, but would be surprised if any of
you get one of my "F's" to achieve "A" status. The value of this
exercise is more to separate the really good from the really bad, than
to quibble over intermediates. With the exception of the very good,
I've not put these in order, but have just sorta dumped them in
categories.

****************************************
"A" List = <75cuts/1.5min.:

A+++) Blackjack "Squad Leader" {A2 tool steel} 43 cuts/45sec

A+) Craftsman #95026, "folding hunter" (20+yo) 54cuts/64 sec

A+) Moki Elite serrated edge {AUS-8A} 67cuts/57 sec.

A+) Moki Elite plain edge {AUS-8A} 63cuts/68 sec

A+) Cold Steel 5" Voyager clip pt. {AUS-8A} 63cuts/80sec

A) Spyderco Endura all serrated {unmarked} 75cuts/79sec

A) Benchmade AFCK {ATS-34} 75cuts/81sec

*********************************************
inbetweeners;

B-A) Cold Steel 4" Voyager tanto plain {AUS-8A} 87cuts/81 sec

B-A) Gerber Original "Shorty" (not modern one) 83cuts/81sec

C-A) Spyderco Delica all serrated {G-2} 111cuts/82sec
************************************************
"B" List= <100cuts/2min

B) Utility Knife, plastic handled, standard blade 68cuts/93sec

B) US GI Mess Kit Knife, LF&C (1945) 87cuts/95sec

B) Orig. Leatherman plain blade 98cuts/112sec

************************************************
Inbetweeners:

B-C) Cold Steel Ready Edge {420J2} 95cuts/135sec

D-B) Gerber Multitool, serrated blade 153cuts/115sec
**********************************************
"C" List= <150cuts/2.5min

C+) Tramontina #2430/06 5.75" Kitchen Knife 127cuts/100sec

C) Spyderco Endura, plain edge {G-2} 110cuts/112sec

C) Old Hickory 7" Butcher Knife {1095} 143cuts/121sec

C) Cold Steel Bushman {SK-5} 126cuts/134sec

C) Buck #110 Folding Hunter, old, {440C} 141cuts/146sec

C) Normark Folding Filet {myst. s.s.} 120cuts/143sec

C-) Case XX Junior Stockman #3318HE 132cuts/150sec
**************************************************
"D" List= <200cuts/3min.

D) George Wostenholm I*XL, 'Barlow', antique 169cuts/167sec

D) Schrade Old Timer 80T, lg Stockman 154cuts/163sec
*****************************************************
Inbetween:
D-F) Wenger Mountaineer locking SAK 192cuts/196sec
****************************************************
"F" List= >200cuts/3min.

F) Victorinox Officer's SAK 224cuts/214sec

F) Spyderco Mariner, plain blade {G-2} 229cuts/ 205sec

F) USMC Kabar {1095} 237cuts/226sec

F) Gerber Multitool, plain blade 249cuts/222sec

F) Camillus AF Survival Knife 268cuts/261sec
*******************************************************
"Peanutbutter spreader class"= Testing stopped after just one test on
the knives below:

Henckels Professional "S" 4 star 6" Chef 202cuts/3.5min
Parker lg. lockback folding tanto hunter 247cuts/4.5min
Queen Steel #62 lg. spey pt. melon knife 302cuts/5.25min
Kershaw #2011 Upswept skinner 536cuts/8.5min
***********************************************************

I attest that the above results are accurate representations of actual
tests performed during Feb. 1997, by me, and I further attest that I
made every effort to insure that each and every blade came out a
winner, and played no favorites. When the stopwatch started, I did my
level best to force each blade to make a point as quickly and
efficiently as possible.

Mike Swaim mi...@cphl.mindspring.com

justme

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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jus...@home.com (justme) wrote:

I hardly even know where to begin commenting on all that I learned by
spending the time to do these tests. I guess I could start with some
misconceptions that I had, that were dashed, bashed and rehashed.

Mike's Misconceptions:
*1095 Carbon Steel beats Stainless. (Guess that depends on the
application, and the type of stainless.)

* The sharpest knife will be the best. (When I did these tests I
actually considered not even trying the Henckel and the Old Hickory
Butcher Knives, since I didn't think they'd have any problem beating
the crap out of everything else that I own. Wow, was I wrong! Imagine
my chagrin, when they not only lost badly, but lost, even to a cheap,
crappy Tramontina professional NSF Kitchen Knife, that _never_ can be
anywhere near as sharp.)

* Serrated blades are no good for wood. (I've actually argued that pt.
on this forum. They may not do pretty work, but they can be very
fast.)

* It makes little difference which serration pattern is used. (OK, I
never argued that one, but my tests show that it makes a huge
difference. Look at the Moki. It uses a pattern very similar to a
Syderco, but much tighter and shallower.)

*In non-serrated blades the harder ones will beat the softer ones.
(Look at the piss poor performance of the hardest blade tested, the
Henckel.)

* Spydercos are just as good as Cold Steels and Benchmades. (I was
just flat out shocked by how poorly the plain Endura fared, and was
mortified at the failing performance of the Mariner.)

* Old Case knives are superior performers. (Superior to what?) {That
line is for Alvin ;-) hee-hee}

* The Kabar may not chop, but is still a pretty good performer. (Good
for what?)

* The Camillus Air Force Survival Knive is superior to the Kabar in
most every practical aspect. ( This one also shocked me for how poorly
it fared. I've skinned deer with the damn thing and never had to
bother much with re-honing it inbetween cuts. What gives?)

* The antique razor sharp Geo. Wostenholm is vastly superior to most
modern slip joint pocket knives because of it's phenonmenal edge. (
This knife will get as sharp as a 1095 kitchen knife, but did poorly
anyway.)

I could go on and on, but basically, I've learned that there is no
substitute for hands on learning, and assumptions make me an ass.

Mike Swaim


Paul Rubin

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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In article <5fd554$f...@camel0.mindspring.com>, justme <this group> wrote:

>jus...@home.com (justme) wrote:
>Mike's Misconceptions:
>*1095 Carbon Steel beats Stainless. (Guess that depends on the
>application, and the type of stainless.)

Except when you've whittled enough to dull one edge but not the
other, given similar original sharpness, the wood probably can't
tell the difference.

>* The sharpest knife will be the best. (When I did these tests I
>actually considered not even trying the Henckel and the Old Hickory
>Butcher Knives, since I didn't think they'd have any problem beating
>the crap out of everything else that I own. Wow, was I wrong! Imagine
>my chagrin, when they not only lost badly, but lost, even to a cheap,
>crappy Tramontina professional NSF Kitchen Knife, that _never_ can be
>anywhere near as sharp.)

Bevel and relief angles and blade thickness may also differ among
these knives.

>* Serrated blades are no good for wood. (I've actually argued that pt.
>on this forum. They may not do pretty work, but they can be very
>fast.)

Well yes, wood is normally cut with saws, which have teeth for a reason :)

>* It makes little difference which serration pattern is used. (OK, I
>never argued that one, but my tests show that it makes a huge
>difference. Look at the Moki. It uses a pattern very similar to a
>Syderco, but much tighter and shallower.)

Interesting.

>*In non-serrated blades the harder ones will beat the softer ones.
>(Look at the piss poor performance of the hardest blade tested, the
>Henckel.)

I'd think it depends on much more besides hardness.

>* Spydercos are just as good as Cold Steels and Benchmades. (I was
>just flat out shocked by how poorly the plain Endura fared, and was
>mortified at the failing performance of the Mariner.)

Again, I'd say check the edge geometry. Also, the Endura has
this weird blade shape that might not be so good for whittling.

>* The Kabar may not chop, but is still a pretty good performer. (Good
>for what?)

Hmm, I'll have to watch the GZK page for a repeat of this test with an ATAK :).

justme

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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jus...@home.com (justme) wrote:

Basically, every knife in the A & B classes held it's edge with
absolute minimal dulling. If anything, the only noticeable thing was
that afterwards they were a little harder to start on the edge of the
newsprint, or wouldn't freely slice freehanging newspaper as easily.
Not much change.

Surprising, in light of their performance, the Old Hickory Butcher
knife, the Geo. Wostenholm I*XL, the Henckel, and the CS Bushman, all
remained virtually razor sharp, but exhibited some 'burring' on the
edge of the blade. (Except Henckel.) I guess if you can alter a wire
burr edge with a leather strop, then it makes sense that oak wood
might also affect a similar change. I can't explain why they did so
poorly at whittling wood if they were still sharp. Truth is sometimes
stranger than fiction.

The "surgical steel" Parker and the Queen Steel melon knife dulled so
quickly that it was evident after less than a dozen slices.
Considering that many years ago, I carried a Queen steel knife next to
my wallet, as boyhood "protection" from dogs and miscreants, it's a
damn good thing that I never had to use it on anything much. What a
piece of crap!

Somebody recently posted that some varieties of stainless may not get
as sharp, but they may tend to stay sharp longer. I really don't know
about that, but can attest to the notion that some types may retain a
more useable degree of sharpness. That's hard to explain, but I'll
try. ALL of the best performers would "get under" the oak grain and
pop off 1/8"x 3/8" chunks. The vastly sharper Old Hickory Kitchen
knife never seemed to get into the wood for some strange reason. It
and some of the other carbon steels had a tendency to glide over the
wood rather than bite into it. Again, I can't explain that. I think
blade shape and grind geometry have a lot to do with it.

For whatever reason, the A2 Squad Leader, with it's weird convex
grind, made wood practically fly off. Maybe that's why wood chisels
are made of A2???

I guess I should state that in the middle of these tests 2 very
important things happened. One, Paul Rubin posted that the Cutlery
Shoppe was having a sale on Moki's and I subsquently ordered a plain
one. This proved to be such an outstanding, truly amazing performer
that I called back the day after I got the 1st one and tried to order
a bunch more. They were out of the plain, but had the serrated so I
got some of them and followed a hunch about drop point tool steel
sheath knives and ordered a Blackjack "Squad Leader", since I was
convinced that the problem with the Kabar and the AF knife was one of
controlability. (Having that thumb forward of the guard makes a big
difference, and I'll be doing a Kabar/Karbar test at some point in the
future!)

Thanks to Paul and the fast service at the Cutlery Shoppe, I got (3)
of the most impressive performers, in time for this test. I'm truly
amazed at how well these things do. My only explanation for the
phenomenal performance of the Moki's is the control aspect and the
shape of the narrow grind. They act almost as razor claws in the hand,
and can be used as an extention of the thumb. I'd be very interested
to see if a similar shaped 1095 knife could do as well or better.

The Craftsman that did so well is somewhat of a mystery. I've always
called this thingee a Buck knife, due to what the Sears salesman said
20 yrs ago, and the fact that it has black plastic scales and an anvil
on the blade. This fact prompted me to do the public appology thing
re:Buck to this group. After doing some research on this knife, I find
that it may have actually been made by Schrade or even Camillus.
There's a picture of a very similar knife on pg 191 of Levine's 3rd
edition. It has 2 blades, that I've always called clip and filet.
Somewhere, I read that Camillus calls their version of the filet blade
a "Turkish clippoint". On the blade of mine it says "ACA (anvil) Edge"
"RUST RESISTANT", Craftsman USA 95026. I don't know what it is, but I
know that it stays sharp and does things to wood that are impressive.
Guess, I won't be giving this one away afterall. My guess is, that
it's lowly 440C.

One other note, is that during testing the most comfortable handle was
the Tramontina Professional Kitchen Knife, and the least comfortable
was the Spyderco Endura. (Sorry Spydie!) Ah, check that, the really
most uncomfortable was the CS Ready Edge. Why they made it like a mini
dagger, instead of like a claw is beyond me.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that I'd wanted to try machetes,
kukris and hatchets for comparison, but NONE of them would whittle and
I didn't think it fair to compare them chopping a point to the other
knives 'whittling' one. Haven't yet tried the CS Kukri. Maybe it will
do better. (I'd guess that a TrailMaster would whittle, but I'll not
be buying another one of those. Been there, done that.)

Mike Swaim mi...@cphl.mindspring.com

mel sorg

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
to this, group

justme wrote:
>
> jus...@home.com (justme) wrote:
>
> Basically, every knife in the A & B classes held it's edge with
> absolute minimal dulling. If anything, the only noticeable thing was
> that afterwards they were a little harder to start on the edge of the
> newsprint, or wouldn't freely slice freehanging newspaper as easily.
> Not much change.
>
> Surprising, in light of their performance, the Old Hickory Butcher
> knife, the Geo. Wostenholm I*XL, the Henckel, and the CS Bushman, all
> remained virtually razor sharp, but exhibited some 'burring' on the
> edge of the blade. (Except Henckel.) I guess if you can alter a wire
> burr edge with a leather strop, then it makes sense that oak wood
> might also affect a similar change. I can't explain why they did so
> poorly at whittling wood if they were still sharp. Truth is sometimes
> stranger than fiction.(snip)>
>I think you'll find that a lot of the difference between the cutting
ability of the knives you used will come down to such things as
controlability, blade and edge geometry, and type of edge those knives
have. Sure, some may feel dull quicker, but if they have a relatively
thin profile blade and angles at the edge it will dig in easier that a
thick, heavy angled edge blade that is razor sharp. If you can choke up
on the handle and apply pressure right up next to where you are cutting
too, the knife will work better than if you are trying to work either at
the tip, or on the edge of a wide, chef's style blade.
Types of steel and sharpness also play a role. Some of the tool
steels have a relatively course grain in the metal that some say act as
mini serrations to help an edge 'bite' into whatever you are cutting,
and you can also get that effect through using a coarser grit stone when
sharpening stainless steels. When working in a butcher shop, we rarely
tried to get a polished edge on the old Henckles and Forshner butcher
knives, instead sharpening them at a relatively shallow angle on a
medium bench stone and realligning the edge with a steel between uses.
One of the best cutting knives for general use and wood carving on
heavy black walnut I ever used was an old Henckels folding hunter with a
big, comfortable wood grip and an extremely thin, tapered blade of some
kind of forged tool steel. It was constantly being touched up on
800-1200 grit emory cloth, barely raising the spine of the knife above
the paper. Although thin as an x-acto knife, the edge never chipped, and
you could curl pieces off of a tough chunk of wood like gangbusters. A
good wood chisel also has a relatively thin edge geometry for a thick
blade, which translates into good cutting ability in wood as long as you
can dig the edge in and break loose chunks of wood to free the blade, or
use it as a kind of planer to shave off curls.
madpoet

mel sorg

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
to mi...@cphl.mindspring.com

justme wrote:
>
> jus...@home.com (justme) wrote:
>
> Basically, every knife in the A & B classes held it's edge with
> absolute minimal dulling. If anything, the only noticeable thing was
> that afterwards they were a little harder to start on the edge of the
> newsprint, or wouldn't freely slice freehanging newspaper as easily.
> Not much change.
>
> Surprising, in light of their performance, the Old Hickory Butcher
> knife, the Geo. Wostenholm I*XL, the Henckel, and the CS Bushman, all
> remained virtually razor sharp, but exhibited some 'burring' on the
> edge of the blade. (Except Henckel.) I guess if you can alter a wire
> burr edge with a leather strop, then it makes sense that oak wood
> might also affect a similar change. I can't explain why they did so
> poorly at whittling wood if they were still sharp. Truth is sometimes

Jeffry Johnston

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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: For whatever reason, the A2 Squad Leader, with it's weird convex

: grind, made wood practically fly off.

Could this be from the blade just behind the edge not flexing under
pressure? Could this also be why some of the knives like the Old Hickory
stayed sharp but would "glide over the wood rather than bite into it".

I wouldn't expect a thin hollow ground blade to be worth a dang in this
test. Shoot, I guess that opens me up for coming up with a better test
huh? 8-\

Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian

David Kelleher

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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Jeffry Johnston wrote:
Shoot, I guess that opens me up for coming up with a better test
> huh? 8-\
>
> Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian

When you do Alvin
Think about the following variables.

Edge geometry
Edge length
Leverage between the grip and the active cutting edge.
Weight and balance of the knife
Angle of attack :-) no pun!
Identical sharpening. If that's even possible:-)

Many of these variables could be dealt with by
Putting the knife in a vice and drawing the dowel through a jig.
VT cuts cedar arrow shafts to test his edges, the smaller diameter would
be easier to control perhaps.
Single cuts across the dowel might be better than attempting to put a
point on it.

Thanks to Mike for great test and comments.
Very interesting and informative.
daithi

David Kelleher

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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Paul Rubin wrote:
> >* Serrated blades are no good for wood. (I've actually argued that pt.
> >on this forum. They may not do pretty work, but they can be very
> >fast.)
>
> Well yes, wood is normally cut with saws, which have teeth for a reason :)

I'm gonna put teeth on my axe, adze, chisel, plane and draw knife right
away.
daithi

Jerry Cupples

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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In article <5ffulh$r...@camel0.mindspring.com>, this group wrote:

snip a bunch here,

> The key is not to design some overly complex test that is designed for
> a specific type of knife, but rather to ask yourself, what do you want
> a knife to be able to do? What do you actually use a knife for? If you
> favor cutting meat/butchering/slaughtering or what have you, then just
> come up with a simple test that won't have the rest of us going broke
> buying sirloin strips or whatever. What can be had cheaply that would
> measure a knife's ability to butcher? (Personally, I'm gonna probably
> argue that meat cutting is probably the most documented of any of the
> possible things to cut, but hope not to discourage anyone that wants
> to test again.)
>
> Mike Swaim

That's just the last thing Mike said. He may be wrong on some of the
points, but I really like the way this man thinks!

Mike, please keep up the effort. It's intriguing that you are finding
these anomolies in what is "expected", and it will be even moreso to find
out just why.

If some of the questioners - and they are doing us a service here, too -
can help get to the explanations it will improve the value of this effort.
I hope the group will maintain the patience to help Mike find the answers.
This is an (all too rare) example of how great usenet can be every once in
a while...

cheers,


Jerry Cupples

justme

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
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David Kelleher <dai...@knives.com> wrote:

>Jeffry Johnston wrote:
> Shoot, I guess that opens me up for coming up with a better test
>> huh? 8-\
>>
>> Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian

I really hope you, and all the others DO come up with other tests. One
of my goals, is to come up with a small battery of standardized, cheap
easy to perform tests, that we can propose to the knife writers, to
try on the knives that they review. It does me little personal good to
read one article saying that knife A is good for cutting through
something obscure like Chinese waxwood, and another article saying
that knife B is good at cutting aluminum beer cans. Largely, I've
found that the few knife writers that even bother to test the stuff
they're reviewing rarely use anything even as useful as one of my
little backyard tests. If an ignorant redneck like me can do this
stuff, then anybody can. That's the point, anybody can repeat any test
that I'll likely ever post to this group. (I already have a couple
more in mind, and in keeping with these others, they involve cheap
material and no particular skill.)

>When you do Alvin
>Think about the following variables.

>Edge geometry
>Edge length
>Leverage between the grip and the active cutting edge.
>Weight and balance of the knife
>Angle of attack :-) no pun!
>Identical sharpening. If that's even possible:-)

>Many of these variables could be dealt with by
>Putting the knife in a vice and drawing the dowel through a jig.

That all depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to
know how your knives perform, while clamped in a vise, then, by all
means go ahead. Don't expect that the results will tell you which
knives cause your hand to cramp from bad handle design, or which
knives balance well, or which knives have useful spots for thumb
forward, index forward, or which knives simply are too awkward to
control well.

Prior to my starting this test, I had some interesting conversations
with a surgical instrument maker/machinist who has experience
designing prosthetics and is very interested in ergonomics in general.
He made the very useful observation, that no matter how good a
computer mockup is made of many products, there is absolutely nothing
that compares to testing in the evironment and manner that the product
will actually be used in. Keep your tests simple and realistic, and
you won't have as many disappointments.

>VT cuts cedar arrow shafts to test his edges, the smaller diameter would
>be easier to control perhaps.
>Single cuts across the dowel might be better than attempting to put a
>point on it.

For testing edges that might be one way to go. For testing knives, it
wouldn't tell much.

>Thanks to Mike for great test and comments.
>Very interesting and informative.
>daithi

Maybe we should take a quick peek at just some of the field notes that
I scribbled while doing the test, that illustrate some things that a
mechanical test might not have shown.

Util. Knife-- good control, but short blade meant lots of strokes

Spyderco Endura, plain-- became uncomfortable to hold after ~100 cuts
in area between large thumb muscle and index finger

Kershaw #2011-- Only used last 2" of cutting edge, hard to control,
very shallow cuts, often glancing off

USMC Kabar-- leather handle awkward to hold, twists in hand

US GI Mess Kit Knife-- seems to excel at slow shallow long cuts

Camillus AF Survival Knife-- only able to effectively use 1st 2" of
blade

Benchmade AFCK-- was very conscious of raised angle on front of handle
near medallion where handle rubbed against 2nd joint of little finger

Cold Steel 4" Voyager-- very conscious of handle area where it crossed
little finger

Buck 110- comfortable

Gerber Shorty- armorhide aluminum is shaped to fit hand nicely

Normark Folding Filet- got stuck in wood several x

Gerber Multitool blade-- blade tends to fold forward due to blade
hinge area not having proper shape

Schrade Stockman-- hard to work out once stuck

Tramontina Kitchen Knife- plush, comfortable

Henckels Chef Knife- hard to control, made thumb hurt, spine is too
square

Cold Steel Ready Edge-- too small, hard to hold on to
*******************************************

I was gonna comment on each knife in the orig post, but was tired and
sick of typing.

Mike Swaim mi...@cphl.mindspring.com


justme

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
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jef...@azstarnet.com (Jeffry Johnston) wrote:

>: For whatever reason, the A2 Squad Leader, with it's weird convex


>: grind, made wood practically fly off.

>Could this be from the blade just behind the edge not flexing under


>pressure? Could this also be why some of the knives like the Old Hickory

>stayed sharp but would "glide over the wood rather than bite into it".

NO. Take another look at the results. The Normark Folding Filet knife
is so wimpy that I call it the "Flexi Folder" and yet it handily beat
the Kabar, the Henkel and several others that don't flex at all.

>I wouldn't expect a thin hollow ground blade to be worth a dang in this
>test.

I wouldn't be so quick to presume that. The diminutive Moki's are very
thin and, for lack of a better term, I guess I might call them
semi-hollow ground. I don't know if that is an accuarate description
or not, but they're not really completely flat, and there is some
narrowing between the edge and the spine.

The mystery Craftsman, that did so well is basically flat ground, as
opposed to the Buck 110, which has a very pronounced narrowing between
the edge and the spine. (I'd call that semi-hollow ground as well,
... What would you all call it??? I'm serious, I don't know.)

> Shoot, I guess that opens me up for coming up with a better test
>huh? 8-\

>Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian

The key is not to design some overly complex test that is designed for

Dave Shuman

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
to

In article <331B1B...@knives.com>,
None of those are particularly fast, are they? If you are looking for
speed, try a chainsaw! :-)
--
Dave S.

David Kelleher

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
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Dave Shuman wrote:
> >I'm gonna put teeth on my axe, adze, chisel, plane and draw knife right
> >away.
> >daithi
> None of those are particularly fast, are they? If you are looking for
> speed, try a chainsaw! :-)
> --
> Dave S.

I like hand power. Machine tools, unless they are firmly anchored to the
floor, make me jumpy. I have a 10" wet grinder that turns at 70 times a
minute. Its the only power tool I ever use. I have a small belt grinder
too but I never use the thing.
daithi

Jeffry Johnston

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
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: >: For whatever reason, the A2 Squad Leader, with it's weird convex

: >: grind, made wood practically fly off.
:
: >Could this be from the blade just behind the edge not flexing under
: >pressure?

I meant, flexible like a straight razor's edge not like a filet knife's
blade. The little bit of hickory handle whittlin I've done taught me
enough to know that the thin hollow ground blade in a Case stockman isn't
a very good choice for this. Kind of like make-do with whatcha got until
you get done or break your sheeps foot blade.

: The key is not to design some overly complex test that is designed for


: a specific type of knife, but rather to ask yourself, what do you want
: a knife to be able to do? What do you actually use a knife for?

Later I was thinking along the same lines... and now that it's clearer
in my mind I want to thank you for the "Whittlin Wood Off Like You Mean
Business" knife test.

Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian

Jeffry Johnston

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
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David Kelleher (dai...@knives.com) wrote:
: Think about the following variables.

Believe it or not, these are considered everytime I use a knife,
: Edge geometry


: Edge length
: Leverage between the grip and the active cutting edge.

: Angle of attack :-) no pun!

Hardly ever are these considered,

: Weight and balance of the knife [it was that way already :]
: Identical sharpening. If that's even possible:-)

I haven't even come close to coming up with a test that's worth trying!

I'm a lazy sucker how about a square edge retention test?

ASM's Metals Handbook desk edition 18.19 table 3

Typical punch and die materials for blanking 1.3mm (.050") sheet.
Tool material for the production quantity of:
1000 10,000 100,000 1,000,000 10,000,000
Stainless steel
austenitic....... O1,A2 O1,A2 A2,D2 D4 Carbide
[tungsten]
Paper, gaskets and
similar soft
materials........ W1 W1 W1,A2 W1,A2 D2

Plastic sheet,
not reinforced... O1 O1 O1,A2 D2 Carbide

There are pages and pages of this kind of stuff...

Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian

David Kelleher

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
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justme wrote:
> >VT cuts cedar arrow shafts to test his edges, the smaller diameter would
> >be easier to control perhaps.
> >Single cuts across the dowel might be better than attempting to put a
> >point on it.
>
> For testing edges that might be one way to go. For testing knives, it
> wouldn't tell much.

Testing edges is what interests me. Your knife tests were fascinating
and got me thinking.
daithi

David Kelleher

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
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Jeffry Johnston wrote:
> Typical punch and die materials for blanking 1.3mm (.050") sheet.
> Tool material for the production quantity of:
> 1000 10,000 100,000 1,000,000 10,000,000
> Stainless steel
> austenitic....... O1,A2 O1,A2 A2,D2 D4 Carbide
> [tungsten]
> Paper, gaskets and
> similar soft
> materials........ W1 W1 W1,A2 W1,A2 D2
>
> Plastic sheet,
> not reinforced... O1 O1 O1,A2 D2 Carbide
> Alvin

Why is O1 no good for paper?
And why is W1 no good for plastic?
Why why why?
daithi

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