"good" knives in the kitchen
the wharf rat
Ok, I used to cook for a living. It's damned hard work and I
don't have the talent to be the next Mario so I eventually went back to
college and ended up doing something else. When I was working at classy
joints ;-) the chefs - and especially the head chefs - all had their own
knives, and some of them were very nice. Ginny had a huge Wusthof that
looked like it had been forged in the Bronze Age and recovered from a Roman
burial site. Simon used a big cleaver for everything except peeling which he
made me do anyway. And so on.
A conversation with a local in the cutlery business led to his making
the comment "That's a very good knife for a kitchen. Kitchens are rough
on knives and I'd never use that in a kitchen." which I didn't understand
remembering Ginny and Simon.
So, is this an artifact of the NSF? Is it just that modern crappy
knives like Forschner are almost as good as an old German relic like
Ginny's so why bother? Or is it that my friend only services Subway and
Chili's so he doesn't really know??
Greg Wormald
IMO it goes something like this:
Most people don't know and don't really care (about anything in
particular). They are OK with the very basic--tools, knives, food,
opinions, and ...
If you are skilled, knowledgeable, and care, then you use the best you
can afford. It may not be the newest, but it is the best for you at the
time.
A commercial kitchen is hard on knives, both good and bad, because most
of the staff don't know a good knife, and don't care about good knives,
or take care of them.
Look at the difference between the basic tools used in the average
service station workshop, and those used by the mechanics working on
race cars.
Greg
Michael Koblic
"Greg Wormald" <gr...@not.myaddress.com> wrote in message
news:greg-1159FA.0...@astraweb.internode.on.net...
>> So, is this an artifact of the NSF? Is it just that modern crappy
>> knives like Forschner are almost as good as an old German relic like
>> Ginny's so why bother? Or is it that my friend only services Subway and
>> Chili's so he doesn't really know??
I have no experience with Forschner. However, the one cooking show I watch
and respect has consistently tested Forschners as "value for money".
> IMO it goes something like this:
<snip>
> A commercial kitchen is hard on knives, both good and bad, because most
> of the staff don't know a good knife, and don't care about good knives,
> or take care of them.
OTOH even cooks just starting out and learning tend to have their own
knives.
I think the reason professional kitchen is hard on knives is that they are
in use for much longer periods of time and process vastly greater quantities
of food than an average home kitchen. It just does not make sense for a
sensible cook to have something really cheap. You want something you are a)
comfortable with and can use for 10 hours a day, and b) something that holds
an edge without having to resharpen frequently (occasional steeling is done
and expected).
Having said that you do not always get what you pay for and sometimes you
are rewarded for minimum outlay. I have never been a professional cook but
occasionally go mad at home and cook something like 12 litres of soup - that
is a lot of vegetables to process. For that I have two cleavers - one cost
me about $70 and I prefer it because of its edge geometry. The other one,
however, is a $15 job and slightly lighter. Honestly, if I did not have the
former I would be completely happy with latter. Sharp as you like and holds
the edge through the whole session.
YMMV
--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC
Chilla
Michael Koblic wrote:
> OTOH even cooks just starting out and learning tend to have their own
> knives.
If the buggers knew how to look after a blade that would make my life a
little easier ;-)
I came across a Chef that didn't know how to put an edge on a blade, he
thought that using a steel would sharpen a blade.
When I got his pride and joy, I showed him how blunt it was by squeezing
the blade in my fist as hard as I could. Dented the skin, no cut.
I sharpened it with a 20 degree kitchen service edge, there was no way I
was going to do the grip test again ;-)
He was happy, I advised him to learn how to sharpen knives.
Regards Charles
deowll
"Chilla" <charles...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4b0a4436$0$1781$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
I tend to use a butcher steel on a couple of large knifes and nothing else
and if you tried that test on them you'd bleed. My parents used a small file
when I was growing up and you still would have been most ill advised to
squeeze.
The butcher's steel is great for putting a micro tooth slicing edge on a
blade. It is a great way to sharpen a large working knife used for meat
processing or cutting up veggies.
I prefer a ceramic rod for other knives. I gives a more polished edge.
Each method quickly gives me the preferred edge for the way I use that
blade.
Each to their own.
Chilla
> I tend to use a butcher steel on a couple of large knifes and nothing
> else and if you tried that test on them you'd bleed. My parents used a
> small file when I was growing up and you still would have been most ill
> advised to squeeze.
>
> The butcher's steel is great for putting a micro tooth slicing edge on a
> blade. It is a great way to sharpen a large working knife used for meat
> processing or cutting up veggies.
>
> I prefer a ceramic rod for other knives. I gives a more polished edge.
>
> Each method quickly gives me the preferred edge for the way I use that
> blade.
>
> Each to their own.
Howdy,
You sound like you look after your knives and don't hack away at bones ;-)
I always look at the edge and do a cross the blade test first, before I
do the squeeze test.
The misconception that a "proper" steel sharpens a blade is quite normal.
It's quite logical really, as the blade does feel sharper after using a
steel.
What actually happens to a fine edge is that it rolls over, either
through normal usage or abuse. All the steel does is straighten that
rolled edge. It doesn't actually sharpen the blade.
A diamond steel is actually a sharpening rod.
Ceramic rods are also sharpening devices.
The point where this "chef" had gotten his blade to, couldn't be fixed
with a steel, it almost had to be re-ground.
Regards Charles
the wharf rat
deowll <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I prefer a ceramic rod for other knives. I gives a more polished edge.
>
>Each method quickly gives me the preferred edge for the way I use that
>blade.
>
>Each to their own.
>
Yeah, I don't understand this at all :-) :-) :-)
The butchers I've known sharpened on a stone or wheel and used
a smooth steel or a chantry for the constant touch ups. I hate the edge
a coarse steel gives and spend a lot of time polishing the edges on my
cooking knives, especially the slicing and boning knives. But even my big
chef's knives have a fine edge. I find that a toothy edge tears up fine
work...
Not crticizing, understand.
the wharf rat
Chilla <charles...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
>The misconception that a "proper" steel sharpens a blade is quite normal.
>
Doesn't a coarse steel actually file the edge? It won't
grind a new bevel of course but it does remove metal...
deowll
Rubbing metal against anything hard will remove some of that metal. The
amount removed by a smooth steel is almost nothing. As such it isn't going
to do a lot fast other that realign the edge. A butcher steel is just a
round file. The part of the blade that comes in contact with the butcher
steel is soon nice and shiny while the blade is still darkly tarnished on
my carbon steel knives. When I put a clean sheet of white paper under the
knife while I sharpen it small particles fall on it. A butcher steel is all
I need to sharpen a large knife to the point I'm ready to stop on a slicing
cut knife or to move on to the ceramic rod if I'm going for a push cut
knife. Of course there is a limit on how dull I'll let a knife get before I
give it a touch up.
I do agree that years of such sharpening doesn't seem to do much visible
damage to the knife. I don't agree that no metal is removed or that the
blade is not sharpened.
One school cook I knew, Mrs. Marjie (I spelled it the way she said it.)
Littrel, used the back of her cast iron skillet to good effect. She kept
that butcher knife blade sharp through years of use. It was sharp. I started
to lecture her about the right way to sharpen a knife meaning my way then
shut up. I was smart enough to realize that she didn't have a problem and my
jawing wasn't going to change jack. She'd found a way to sharpen her blade
that worked and she didn't need any advice from me.
If a knife is so worn it needs reground then mere sharpening isn't the
issue.
The last new knife I got with no edge was first sharpened with a file then
a butcher steel. It worked.
deowll
"the wharf rat" <wr...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:hi4jjo$1p0$3...@reader1.panix.com...
Those ridges mean that a butcher steel is just a round file.
deowll
If I was slicing wood for wood carving and wanted an ultra smooth surface it
wouldn't suit me either. A mater, spud, pepper, cabbage or meat doesn't get
that much respect from me. ?8^)
You have fun and do it your way.
Chilla
deowll wrote:
>
> "the wharf rat" <wr...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:hi4jjo$1p0$3...@reader1.panix.com...
>
>>
>> Doesn't a coarse steel actually file the edge? It won't
>> grind a new bevel of course but it does remove metal...
>>
>>
>
> Those ridges mean that a butcher steel is just a round file.
Nah a steel is a lot softer than a knife edge. The ridges just help the
process of straightening the rolled edge.
We're talking very small things here.
I've got one of those steels too, and I use it to straighten the edge of
the that gets rolled in the sharpening process.
Read here, this is a good definition :-
<http://www.mrleonardknifesharpener.com/id9.html>
If the sharpening steel sharpened it would be able to sharpen a dull
knife, which it can't. I've tried it, because a long time ago I thought
they wouldn't name it a "sharpening steel" if it didn't sharpen. I know
better these days.
You can try it yourself, get a really dull knife and try to sharpen it
with a steel. I was at it off an on for 2 days, it doesn't work.
A steel is a maintenance tool, and it's good at maintaining an edge.
Regards Charles
Chilla
True, you will eventually break off that fine edge that gets rolled
through use. It's the same as if you bend a piece of sheet steel, after
you do it long enough it's going to split and break in half.
It's not a filing action it's a bending action. It's not a file for
knives as the steel is a lot softer than the edge of your knife. If you
want to damage a steel just run a knife over it edgeways. You will of
course flatten that micro edge on the knife too.
Those small particles are simply bits of the micro edge breaking off.
The diamond steels aren't steels at all, they're diamond impregnated
sharpening rods.
Lol, Mrs. Marjie, was using her skillet as a steel :-D She must have
treated her knives with great care and I bet they were quality knives also.
If a knife is made right, you only need to sharpen it once. By dumb
luck my first attempt at a "pretty" knife, actually it looks pretty ugly
(we've all got to start someplace), has worked out really well. It's
been sharpened once, it has a slightly convex edge, and it's used all
the time.
What happens when you do an initial sharpening is that when you abrade
that edge, the micro edge is getting bent in line with the sharpening
device. Not sure what happens with those ceramic "V" sticks. The steel
straightens that micro edge.
At the end of the day if you can get a knife to slice that's all that
matters.
Regards Charles
Chilla
the wharf rat wrote:
More on how a steel works :-
<http://www.chow.com/stories/11516>
<http://www.kniveskitchen.com/sharpening.html>
<http://www.ehow.com/how_4713480_use-sharpening-steel.html>
<http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/sharpen/instruct.html>
<http://www.mastersmith.com/SharpeningKnives.htm>
<http://www.chefschoice.com/tips_myth_all.html>
This is only a small selection of sites that tell you how a steel works.
Regards Charles
the wharf rat
Chilla <charles...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
>It's not a filing action it's a bending action. It's not a file for
>knives as the steel is a lot softer than the edge of your knife. If you
I think it depends on the steel. I've got some Dick and Dexter
steels that definitely will file a knife. You can actually bring up a
burr with them.
>Those small particles are simply bits of the micro edge breaking off.
They're not that small, though.
>
>If a knife is made right, you only need to sharpen it once. By dumb
But ALL knives eventually need to be reground, don't they??
the wharf rat
Chilla <charles...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
><http://www.chow.com/stories/11516>
IMHO this guy's wrong right off the bat. He says if you wear
the ridges off you need a new steel and that they only last 4 years.
I've seen ridged steels that've lasted decades - in constant use - and
the butchers love worn steels. They'll come to the kitchen looking for
them.
Quick experiment: I took a toolbox knife, a Camco workhorse
stockman with decent 440 blades, that was "sharp" but not really - it
had a good bevel but wouldn't catch on a nail (fingernail) or cleanly
slice paper. I started on a coarse Dick steel but did one edge at a time
rather than the traditional alternating. I raised a nice burr. I then
switched back to alternating and moved through my 4 kitchen steels, first
the coarse Dick then a Dexter that's what most consider fine then back to
a fine Dickoron and finishing on an old Dick that's been worn smooth enough
to barely feel any ridges.
That thing's genuinely sharp now and will shave arm hair :-)
The burr proves I removed metal, doesn't it? Also if you steel a knife
and wipe it unless the steel is magnetic you get the same gray dust as
with a stone...
Chilla
the wharf rat wrote:
> But ALL knives eventually need to be reground, don't they??
Well this one hasn't needed it yet, and it's going on 13 years... it's
hideous though :-(
Regards Charles
Chilla
> In article <4b4664ff$0$3075$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>,
> Chilla <charles...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
>><http://www.chow.com/stories/11516>
>
>
> IMHO this guy's wrong right off the bat. He says if you wear
> the ridges off you need a new steel and that they only last 4 years.
> I've seen ridged steels that've lasted decades - in constant use - and
> the butchers love worn steels. They'll come to the kitchen looking for
> them.
Hey not everyone can be 100% right all the time (even me) ;-)
Okay discounting that site, how about the others? Like I said it was
one of many.
I wonder if we're going to start international arguments over this? :-D
> Quick experiment: I took a toolbox knife, a Camco workhorse
> stockman with decent 440 blades, that was "sharp" but not really - it
> had a good bevel but wouldn't catch on a nail (fingernail) or cleanly
> slice paper. I started on a coarse Dick steel but did one edge at a time
> rather than the traditional alternating. I raised a nice burr. I then
> switched back to alternating and moved through my 4 kitchen steels, first
> the coarse Dick then a Dexter that's what most consider fine then back to
> a fine Dickoron and finishing on an old Dick that's been worn smooth enough
> to barely feel any ridges.
>
> That thing's genuinely sharp now and will shave arm hair :-)
>
> The burr proves I removed metal, doesn't it? Also if you steel a knife
> and wipe it unless the steel is magnetic you get the same gray dust as
> with a stone...
No it it means you've straightened that fine edge. The rolled over edge
has been straightened.
Those little bits are that fine edge breaking off. Breaking metal is
not filing it.
Here we are something that does a way better job of explaining than I
could. It covers a lot of the points you put forward.
<http://video.about.com/housewares/How-to-Use-a-Knife-Steel.htm>
<http://www.5min.com/Video/Quick-Tip-Knife-Sharpening-30438054>
Okay so you don't have to take these guys as knowing what they are
talking about.
How about these guys?
<http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=604308>
<http://www.knifeart.com/sharfaqbyjoe.html>
The general consensus is that the edge rolls on fine knives, through
use, on very fine knives. That using a steel before and after using the
knife will straighten that fine edge. That a steel doesn't sharpen a knife.
Regards Charles
deowll
Charles you can tell me anything you want. I've sharpened that old hickery 7
inch carbon steel butcher knife for about 20 years on the butcher steel. (In
fact I bought my first butcher steel in order to have some way to sharpen
it.) and it still slices tomatoes better than when it came from the factory
with nothing more than an occasional touch up with a butcher steel. I've
used to cut up corn stalks, potatoes, done a little trimming in the yard,
cut up chikens, sliced hog jowl, cut up a ham, a leg of lamb, and normal
kitchen tasks and after a little work with the steel before the next use it
was sharper than the day I bought it. That's all I need to know.
You and anybody you care to name can tell me it doesn't work as long as you
want. Personal experience tells me it does. I do agree if you want a
shaving sharp push cut kind of edge this isn't the best way to go but I can
put that blade against something and start drawing it back and forth and
it'll sink right in with only very modest pressure. It works for me. As for
as I'm concerned it is the perfect edge for a butcher knife.
You have fun now.
deowll
I do know what a diamond steel is. I have never used a diamond steel. I
most likely won't. Somehow the phrase diamond suggests knife damage.
What I do has worked for as long as I've had the knife and I expect it to
keep on working for as long as I need a knife.
>
> Lol, Mrs. Marjie, was using her skillet as a steel :-D She must have
> treated her knives with great care and I bet they were quality knives
> also.
>
Charles that knife was bought cheap most likely about 1950 for a few dollars
when the school building was built and the county bought what they needed
for a kitchen for as little as possible.
I'm guessing old hickory or something very similar as to quality. It had
wood scale handles.
> If a knife is made right, you only need to sharpen it once. By dumb luck
> my first attempt at a "pretty" knife, actually it looks pretty ugly (we've
> all got to start someplace), has worked out really well. It's been
> sharpened once, it has a slightly convex edge, and it's used all the time.
>
> What happens when you do an initial sharpening is that when you abrade
> that edge, the micro edge is getting bent in line with the sharpening
> device. Not sure what happens with those ceramic "V" sticks. The steel
> straightens that micro edge.
>
> At the end of the day if you can get a knife to slice that's all that
> matters.
>
Well steeling certainly works great for me and has ever since I started
using it for large knives of a certain kind.
What abrasion against ceramic rods does is obvious. You need to wash off
the fine particles of steel left on the ceramic occasionally. That is
abrasion happens but at a much finer level than against a butcher steel.
The only reason for the v is because some people can't hold a consistent
angle.
>
>
> Regards Charles
>
deowll
Your experience is more in line with mine.
deowll
If your blade needs regrinding even after 13 years you are using it a lot
more than I do or you are doing a lot more damage to the knife when you
resharpen. My parents largely wore their favorite of my early childhood out
but then they used a file. I'd say fourteen years tops to very badly worn
with the blade getting more or less constant use. Maybe a fourth of it was
gone? None of the old country butcher knives started out with a wasp waist
but the older ones that were used constantly all grew them.
deowll
Not sure why you listed some of them. I supect you didn't read them. ?8^)
None of these people seem to understand the difference between a smooth
traditional steel and one with ridges nor am I sure these nudniks understand
that rubbing steel against a ceramic is like using a fine stone on it though
of course they aren't all the same either. I have one such that is much
finer than another. I have reason to believe it produces a sharper edge well
suited to a push cut. After using it the knife will shave. I consider it to
be best suited to my pocket knives.
I'm not trying to convince you to sharpen your knives my way. Use what ever
works for you and makes you happy.
deowll
I'd just about go with you as long as you are talking about a smooth steel
like the originals. The amount of steel removed by rubbing against a smooth
steel should match up with a fine stone and it would do what you suggested.
The problem is my butcher steels don't act like that.
One more thing. None of my butcher steels (3) show much if any signs of real
wear. Maybe in a butcher shop? A file will wear smooth given enough use.
I'm also a little dubious of magnetic by intent rather than by accident.
Holding dust on the steel would not be a good thing but avoiding being
magnetic might be hard to do due to the manufacturing process or events that
occurred later. I seem to recall that a steel rod facing north or at least
what ever the correct direction is that gets hit on the end will become
magnetic. You could also do it by dragging a magnet across it.
Chilla
> If your blade needs regrinding even after 13 years you are using it a
> lot more than I do or you are doing a lot more damage to the knife when
> you resharpen. My parents largely wore their favorite of my early
> childhood out but then they used a file. I'd say fourteen years tops to
> very badly worn with the blade getting more or less constant use. Maybe
> a fourth of it was gone? None of the old country butcher knives started
> out with a wasp waist but the older ones that were used constantly all
> grew them.
The point is I've only "ever" sharpened the blade once, and I used a
steel at the same time.
I have not touched it with a steel since. The knife is used all the time.
Chilla
deowll wrote:
>
> "Chilla" <charles...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4b4661b8$0$6094$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> Lol, Mrs. Marjie, was using her skillet as a steel :-D She must have
>> treated her knives with great care and I bet they were quality knives
>> also.
>>
>
> Charles that knife was bought cheap most likely about 1950 for a few
> dollars when the school building was built and the county bought what
> they needed for a kitchen for as little as possible.
> I'm guessing old hickory or something very similar as to quality. It had
> wood scale handles.
Ah there you go, chances are that a cheap knife made in the 50's would
be better than a lot of knives today.
> Well steeling certainly works great for me and has ever since I started
> using it for large knives of a certain kind.
I actually like people like you, that know how to treat a knife well.
Makes my life a lot easier.
> What abrasion against ceramic rods does is obvious. You need to wash
> off the fine particles of steel left on the ceramic occasionally. That
> is abrasion happens but at a much finer level than against a butcher
> steel. The only reason for the v is because some people can't hold a
> consistent angle.
What I was wondering about was that micro edge, whether you've need to
use a steel after using a ceramic "V" setup.
When you sharpen normally you usually bend that micro edge one way or
another.
Anyone have a link to a microscopic edge after using a ceramic "V"?
Regards Charles
Chilla
deowll wrote:
> I'm also a little dubious of magnetic by intent rather than by accident.
> Holding dust on the steel would not be a good thing but avoiding being
> magnetic might be hard to do due to the manufacturing process or events
> that occurred later. I seem to recall that a steel rod facing north or
> at least what ever the correct direction is that gets hit on the end
> will become magnetic. You could also do it by dragging a magnet across it.
Yeah none of mine are magnetic, and I agree there would be a good chance
of scratching your nice blade.
Dragging a magnet across a piece of steel will magnetise it temporarily.
I only know how to demagnetise metal. I demagnetised a telescopic probe
when I touched a piece of cherry red steel... it was an accident.
The other way is to put the steel item into the earth and hit the other
end with a hammer.
Another "North" thing. I've seen a blade smith heat treating a blade
then pointing said blade North. He's the only person I've seen do this.
I've spoken to a number of my peers and the consensus is "why?".
Regards Charles
Chilla
deowll wrote:
> Not sure why you listed some of them. I supect you didn't read them. ?8^)
Mainly for supporting the micro edge bending, and or stating that a
steel straightens that micro edge.
> I'm not trying to convince you to sharpen your knives my way. Use what
> ever works for you and makes you happy.
You know it's a matter of sweating the small stuff. I sometimes get
carried away and forget more important things.
What I'll do in the future is is make a statement, back it up, and that
will be the end of my statements.
That way people can decide for themselves.
What I'm more concerned with is people treating their knives well, that
way if I do a sharpening job for them, I can charge them less (as I wont
have to spend as much time).
Some of the knives I get have been really abused.
Regards Charles
Del Cecchi
enough and slowly withdraw it. see "degaussing". CRT televisions had
them built in for the shadow mask.