K. Tragbar Knife?
Ed Humphries
in December of 1968 just before he shipped out to Vietnam. He carried
it while there and later used it for more mundane activities.
The knife is marked in medium size print:
"Original Bowie Knife"
on the blade starting near the brass fingerguard and extending about
1/3 the length of the blade running toward the point. Parallel to the
fingerguard on the same side of the blade printed in small letters are
three lines:
"K.TRAGBAR" "SOLINGEN" "GERMANY".
There are no markings on the other side of the blade.
The scales are apparently stag and the blade appears to be stainless.
Overall length is about 15 1/2 inches. The blade is 10 inches in
traditional bowie style.
If it matters I bought it in a U.S. Army "Rod & Gun Club" on a
military base in Germany. I have no idea of the value of the knife,
or any information about the maker. The knife came back to me after
my father's death and I therefore have a sentimental attachment to it.
Just curious to see if anyone could shed any light on this.
Cheers, Ed Humphries
Atlanta Georgia
Chas
> If it matters I bought it in a U.S. Army "Rod & Gun Club" on a
> military base in Germany. I have no idea of the value of the knife,
> or any information about the maker. The knife came back to me after
> my father's death and I therefore have a sentimental attachment to it.
Solingen has long been the home of individual makers/small factories and
'finishers'. A lot of them worked particular models of knives, so you can
see identical knives from the period with a variety of names on them. Those
knives showed up in the hunting and fishing mags, the men's mags, on
military bases particularly in Europe. Puma was the standard in the BX
(generally), but these were the 'other' knives in the case next to them.
It's more probably carbon steel rather than stainless, although not by
certain. The blades were gang forged in specialized factories and finished
in smaller home shops. They're good knives, although ground a bit thick in
the strongback for my tastes. That's what made the Puma so slick.
I'm just theorizing from your description, so I may be totally off base.
Those kinds of knives often command in excess of $125 if the stag is good
and the knife/sheath intact.
Chas
brian w edginton
wrote:
I know little about the brand but I think the "K" is for Klaus.
Seem to recall seeing the name in the 1960s. I believe the quality was
not, especially, high.
"Original Bowie " was used by several German makers (or, at least,
importers) in the 50s and 60s.
I seem to recall the brand name on something called the "Siberian
Skinner', too.
Couldn't find a listing in Bernard Levines Guide...nor in John Goins
book.
Makes me believe they wouldn't have any significant collector value.
brianWE
Please ignore any advice I offer...
if I was smart, I wouldn't be talking to you.
alv...@xx.com
> >"Original Bowie Knife"
> importers) in the 50s and 60s.
The one I had, I believe, was made in Japan, prob'ly a later, even
cheaper copy? I used it up. ;) It was used as a wedge and hammered
through stuff and at the same time as a pry bar etc. Did I tell you
it was "used up"? ;) I'm in the process of "using up" a (too small)
cheap carbon steel cleaver the same way. :)
Alvin in AZ
Mark South
news:Bf-dnbUyJKT...@comcast.com...
> "Ed Humphries" <edh...@bellsouth.net> wrote
> > If it matters I bought it in a U.S. Army "Rod & Gun Club" on a
> > military base in Germany. I have no idea of the value of the knife,
> > or any information about the maker. The knife came back to me after
> > my father's death and I therefore have a sentimental attachment to it.
So why do you want to know what it's worth?
....
> It's more probably carbon steel rather than stainless, although not by
> certain. The blades were gang forged in specialized factories and finished
> in smaller home shops. They're good knives, although ground a bit thick in
> the strongback for my tastes. That's what made the Puma so slick.
...And so staggeringly expensive these days.
--
Mark South
Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
<<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!>>
alv...@xx.com
> Chas
I have a piece of power hacksaw blade with holes drilled in it for a
handle. (i sat on it remember?:) It's 6" long so there is available-
~2" long and 1+1/8" wide by 1/16" thick piece of steel to make a
knife blade/scraper/whatever out of.
Is there anything you can think of off hand that you could use for
leather work, that could be ground from that to form a "useful
blade" to test HSS for edge taking+holding?
Alvin in AZ
brian w edginton
Had a Japanese "Original Bowie" in the 60s....carbon steel blade and
imitation stag handles.
Still have a "Boker's Bowie of the exact same pattern but with jigged
bone slabs. My guess is that the Japanese one was a direct copy.
BTW, did a Google search and came up with a few references to Tragbar
cutlery. Mostly kitchen stuff (including cleavers). It is possible
they are, or have been, recently, in production. The "K", it seems,
does stand for Klaus.
Actually, came across a forum where someone contacted a Dr Klaus
Tragbar and asked about the line.....he had never heard of it.
Chas
> Is there anything you can think of off hand that you could use for
> leather work, that could be ground from that to form a "useful
> blade" to test HSS for edge taking+holding?
the hardest blade to maintain and use is a 'French skiver'.
It's like a skew chisel; ground on one side only, across the face of the
bar. They've got to be ground thin and with a very wide bevel- say 3/8"+ on
a 1/8" stock.
The edge has to be a hair popper, or it won't grab very thin leather and
skive it in half.
That would be one I'd try.
I have a Stellite blade that came out of Gates Rubber Co.; made for trimming
auto belting material at high speed; it's about 3/4" on 3/16" thickness for
the bevel. Works for a while, but it's hard to sharpen; very gummy material.
Chas
Fraser Johnston
"brian w edginton" <ed...@REMOVETHISbigpond.com> wrote in message
news:u4p660di4hdv2k1p9...@4ax.com...
> Had a Japanese "Original Bowie" in the 60s....carbon steel blade and
> imitation stag handles.
My Ju-Jitsu club has a bunch of these that we use for training knives. I
have always meant to get a picture of one and post it here asking details.
Any idea on value?
Fraser
brian w edginton
Ten dollars. ? If you are lucky. Japanese knives of that era
were made in huge numbers and were of mediocre quality.
IMO, anyway. The companies that made them weren't, really, cutlery
companies. Just makers of whatever they thought the Western nations
would buy.
Fraser Johnston
"brian w edginton" <ed...@REMOVETHISbigpond.com> wrote in message
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:01:27 +0800, "Fraser Johnston"
> <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >"brian w edginton" <ed...@REMOVETHISbigpond.com> wrote in message
> >news:u4p660di4hdv2k1p9...@4ax.com...
> >> Had a Japanese "Original Bowie" in the 60s....carbon steel blade and
> >> imitation stag handles.
> >
> >My Ju-Jitsu club has a bunch of these that we use for training knives. I
> >have always meant to get a picture of one and post it here asking
details.
> >Any idea on value?
> >
> >Fraser
> >
>
> Ten dollars. ? If you are lucky. Japanese knives of that era
> were made in huge numbers and were of mediocre quality.
> IMO, anyway. The companies that made them weren't, really, cutlery
> companies. Just makers of whatever they thought the Western nations
> would buy.
Thought so. They are pretty cool knives though. Blunt as buggery which is
exactly what you want when you miss and get stabbed with one.
Fraser
alv...@xx.com
Got a picture? ...and better yet...
Will they have these at the Tandy Leather store to look at?
That would be cool we could make design changes yet keep the best
parts.
> It's like a skew chisel; ground on one side only, across the face
> of the bar. They've got to be ground thin and with a very wide
> bevel- say 3/8"+ on a 1/8" stock.
How wide?
The thickest I have is .090".
> The edge has to be a hair popper, or it won't grab very thin
> leather and skive it in half.
Have you ever had or sharpened a homemade high speed steel knife?
The sharp edge will be the easiest part of the project. :)
> That would be one I'd try.
Cool but, nothing to make worth anything for the small 2"x 1"x 1/6"
blade?
> I have a Stellite blade that came out of Gates Rubber Co.; made
> for trimming auto belting material at high speed; it's about 3/4"
> on 3/16" thickness for the bevel. Works for a while, but it's hard
> to sharpen; very gummy material.
> Chas
Never messed with that stuff. From what I've read soft-stuff isn't
the thing to use for a sharp edge... they go on about F2, F3 and O7
tool steels for edge taking and holding. HSS has taken over their
roles in edge taking and edge hoding and WC for wire drawing dies.
F2 1.2-1.4% C, 3.0-4.5% W, low Si and Mn
F3 <same as F2> plus .5-1.0% Cr
O7 1.1-1.3% C, .35-.85% Cr, .15-.30 V, 1-2% W, low Si and Mn
O7 is a Cr based oil hardening steel so it's like A2 only better for
knives than even A2, finer grained and stronger than A2 let alone
stronger than Mn based O1 (all the other O# steels are Mn based, so
cheaper)
I've got some pieces I want to scan edge-on to compare the grain
size of M2, 8670-M (L6) and O1 (still need to break a piece of O1;)
The fine grain of the M2 is exceptional at 9+1/2... F2 is 10 and
looks like glass/flint when broken. :) (i give up trying to find
the word in the dictionary "col?-something) "shell oil sign" is my
usual way of describing flint chips and F2 kinda does that too, it's
so fine and sound in structure.
I've read where O7 was used to make razors and razor blades. (1964)
Never could find any O7 for sale. :/
Alvin in AZ
alv...@xx.com
> > >> and imitation stag handles.
Mine had fine grained wood with deep "jigged" grooves, the blade was
ground with the bevel only on one side. It was a really good,
extra-thin "cold chisel". :) I think what happened to it is it went
with a load of scrap metal... it was used up.
> Thought so. They are pretty cool knives though. Blunt as buggery
> which is exactly what you want when you miss and get stabbed with
> one.
> Fraser
You've already got 'em ;) ...but a guy could dull any knife for that
use.
Alvin in AZ
Mark South
> > > >> Had a Japanese "Original Bowie" in the 60s....carbon steel blade
> > > >> and imitation stag handles.
>
> Mine had fine grained wood with deep "jigged" grooves, the blade was
> ground with the bevel only on one side. It was a really good,
> extra-thin "cold chisel". :) I think what happened to it is it went
> with a load of scrap metal... it was used up.
Sounds better than a lot of expensive stuff sold now.
> > Thought so. They are pretty cool knives though. Blunt as buggery
> > which is exactly what you want when you miss and get stabbed with
> > one.
>
> You've already got 'em ;) ...but a guy could dull any knife for that
> use.
Now I'm waiting for one of the group braggarts to pop up and tell how they
ground the edge of their spare Sebenza dull for just this purpose.
alv...@xx.com
Just an ordinary piece of .8 to 1% carbon steel drawn at ~450F.
That's it.
It wasn't stainless steel with all that soft Cr diluting the steel.
It was brown colored, covered with thin rust.
Alvin in AZ
Chas
> > the hardest blade to maintain and use is a 'French skiver'.
> Got a picture? ...and better yet...
> Will they have these at the Tandy Leather store to look at?
> That would be cool we could make design changes yet keep the best
> parts.
Tandy will have them- under the name 'french skiver', I would think.
Mine is about 1 1/8" wide with an angle of about 45 deg.; the commercial one
about 1 3/4" wide with a far more acute angle.
I have an ole Tandy one, but the bevel is on the wrong side. It has to be
facing down with the long poin of the angle leading. You work with the bevel
down so that the edge is always trying to rise out, not further into the
leather. The purpose of the knife is to cut an angled feather to the edge of
a piece of leather- to allow the joining of two pieces to be thinner at the
edge.
> How wide?
> The thickest I have is .090".
That's cool- a hair narrow, but no matter. You push the blade to cut with
it, so there needs be a length of edge to lead into the cut- don't go less
than 45 degs., it's just too blunt. I have one made from an old rasp at
about 35 degs. and it's just too blunt to get a good slicing cut by the
action of a leading point that gives kind of a drawing cut even though
you're pushing it.
> Have you ever had or sharpened a homemade high speed steel knife?
> The sharp edge will be the easiest part of the project. :)
Oh yeah- my best knife is my first one; made out of a machine hacksaw blade
thirty-five years ago. Ground cold under water- it's got a damned old sugar
pine scrap on it, just glued up with white glue- I think it was even
interior use white glue.
Haven't moved the edge more than an eighth of an inch, keeping it razor
sharp and using it often, in thirty-five years.
> Cool but, nothing to make worth anything for the small 2"x 1"x 1/6"
> blade?
Hell; I always pay my way, buddy- I'd trade you something for a knife just
to make friends.
Chas
alv...@xx.com
> > Got a picture? ...and better yet...
> > Will they have these at the Tandy Leather store to look at?
> > That would be cool we could make design changes yet keep the
> > best parts.
> Tandy will have them- under the name 'french skiver', I would
> think. Mine is about 1 1/8" wide with an angle of about 45 deg.;
> the commercial one about 1 3/4" wide with a far more acute angle.
>
> I have an ole Tandy one, but the bevel is on the wrong side. It
> has to be facing down with the long poin of the angle leading. You
> work with the bevel down so that the edge is always trying to rise
> out, not further into the leather. The purpose of the knife is to
> cut an angled feather to the edge of a piece of leather- to allow
> the joining of two pieces to be thinner at the edge.
>
> edge to lead into the cut- don't go less than 45 degs., it's just
> too blunt. I have one made from an old rasp at about 35 degs. and
> it's just too blunt to get a good slicing cut by the action of a
> leading point that gives kind of a drawing cut even though you're
> pushing it.
After seeing one and re-reading, I figure I'll understand at least
some of that. ;)
> > How wide?
1+3/4"?
> > The thickest I have is .090".
> That's cool- a hair narrow, but no matter.
narrow = thin, there?
Power hacksaw blades are made in steps the .090" thick ones I have
are ~1+1/2" wide (size always minus teeth) I have a couple tungsten
HSS (T1?) ones at .075" that are ~1+5/16" and for the most part the
1" to 1+1/8" wide ones are .062" (1/16") thick.
The only huge .100" ones I happen to have are "flex back" and so no
good for this project.
> Oh yeah- my best knife is my first one; made out of a machine
> hacksaw blade thirty-five years ago. Ground cold under water- it's
> got a damned old sugar pine scrap on it, just glued up with white
> glue- I think it was even interior use white glue.
Cool. :)
...and we now know "under water" isn't necassary for HSS. :)
> Haven't moved the edge more than an eighth of an inch, keeping it
> razor sharp and using it often, in thirty-five years.
Sounds like full hard HSS to me! :)
> > Cool but, nothing to make worth anything XforX [out of] the
> > small 2"x 1"x 1/6" blade?
> Hell; I always pay my way, buddy- I'd trade you something for a
> knife just to make friends.
> Chas
That's cool, but I meant "the small, odd sized blade is out?" there.
See, at first I was thinking a super-small bladed knife with a full
sized handle made from the scrap piece (it won't go to waste) but
something specially made that really helps you (your take on it) is
a much better idea IMO and I'd rather go with that. :)
That's what I did with the cowboys and the butcher and the carpet
layer... now the "leather worker?" too? :) That's cool. :)
You already have experience with an HSS edged tool the carpet layer
and the butcher could hardly friggin believe it after they used the
dangged ol' stuff! ;)
The coyboys had (still have) a few HSS knives but they were thick
edged and one was even a ~12" long wharncliff made from a bi-metal
blade. I made their thick edged ones worth using after we skinned
that ~650 lb pig with my "first" knife.
I shot that pig with .22 Stingers from a rifle and all it did was
squeel to beat hell even after 5-6? shots "in the right place and
the right angle".
The seventh? was a cheap junk .22 blazer (that was handed to me)
and laid the sucker down ...right now. ;) We were trying to herd
him toward "the tree with the hoist" and gave up and decided it'd be
easier to drag the sucker with the pickup (from where he decided to
go instead;) so... one quick shot and get the pickup... "best laid
plans of mice and men often go awry" ;)
Just before I shot him the first time it was mentioned they'd heard
those hot little "stingers" didn't work so good so it was time to
"find out for ourselves" was the decision. :)
You know you can mess around and make the meat taste like "run to
death cow" wounding them and having them run around crazy, so I
always used a 9mm after that. :)
Anyway that was my first knife doing its first job and we didn't
re-sharpen it until after it was skinned and quartered.
They went on about how great the knife was, so much, I wondered if
they weren't just blowing smoke up my butt. :/
Alvin in AZ
Mark South
> ..."best laid plans of mice and men often go awry" ;)
ITYM "...gang oft a-gley" :-)
Chas
> > > How wide?
> 1+3/4"?
1 3/4" is good; as narrow as an inch or so is ok.
> > > The thickest I have is .090".
> narrow = thin, there?
Yeah; that thickness will work well.
> That's cool, but I meant "the small, odd sized blade is out?" there.
Nothing's out <g>
A sharp-pointed lay-out knife would be good- just think the real pointy
X-Acto one. Warncliffe's are good if they have a good entering point.
HSS is some wonderful shit, so whatever kind of blade is bound to work out
well.
Chas
Steve Kramer
Mark South wrote:
>
> <alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:c479q7$g6u$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> > ..."best laid plans of mice and men often go awry" ;)
>
> ITYM "...gang oft a-gley" :-)
er... I think it's really 'gang AFT agley.' Don't you just hate
mis-quotes. LOL!
Steve Kramer
Chiang Mai, Thailand
http://www.photoenvisions.com
--
"The real voyage of discovery is not in seeking new lands,
but in seeing with new eyes!" Marcel Proust
Mark South
news:4067A0E6...@seatraveler.com...
>
>
> Mark South wrote:
> >
> > <alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:c479q7$g6u$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> > > ..."best laid plans of mice and men often go awry" ;)
> >
> > ITYM "...gang oft a-gley" :-)
>
> er... I think it's really 'gang AFT agley.' Don't you just hate
> mis-quotes. LOL!
Nah, I figured if I misquoted from memory one of the smart guys would feel
obliged to post the correct quote :-)
alv...@xx.com
> > mis-quotes. LOL!
So I've been quoting John Steinbeck wrong all these years? :/
I used to have a book "Quotes" but threw it away after I looked up
several libertarian sounding quotes from Ben Franklin and others and
they weren't in there but there were all kinds of obscure shit (to
me anyway) socialist sounding crap from people I never heard of. :/
Threw that sucker away. So I'm at your mercy on quotes.
Alvin
alv...@xx.com
> > > Got a picture?
> > think. Mine is about 1 1/8" wide with an angle of about 45 deg.;
> > the commercial one about 1 3/4" wide with a far more acute angle.
Ok, Tandy's basically out of the retail leather-store business. :/
The guy I talked to about "skivers" showed me a few different ones
next to imposible to describe them "cold" but you'd know them.
None looked like what I have pictured in my head.
He didn't know what I meant by "French" Skiver... neither did I. :)
But at least I wasn't pretending to know, the way he did. ;)
One was pretty cool looking, like it'd work good... its kind of a
cross between a draw knife and an old safety razor where the razor
(ejector?;) blade is held in a curved shape and the leather scraps
come up through a slot. His was chrome-plated zinc looked and felt
like, and no name or anything on it.
> > I have an ole Tandy one, but the bevel is on the wrong side. It
> > has to be facing down with the long poin of the angle leading. You
> > work with the bevel down so that the edge is always trying to rise
> > out, not further into the leather. The purpose of the knife is to
> > cut an angled feather to the edge of a piece of leather- to allow
> > the joining of two pieces to be thinner at the edge.
> >
> > You push the blade to cut with it, so there needs be a length of
> > edge to lead into the cut- don't go less than 45 degs., it's just
> > too blunt. I have one made from an old rasp at about 35 degs. and
> > it's just too blunt to get a good slicing cut by the action of a
> > leading point that gives kind of a drawing cut even though you're
> > pushing it.
> After seeing one and re-reading, I figure I'll understand at least
> some of that. ;)
So I guess I'm going to need a picture. :/
A website catalog picture might be the easiest way to go there?
Also there's one more leather store and I'll get by there the next
time I go to town. Still want to buy a new belt and dye it to match
my leather-soled "Mess-can" boots. :) The only leather they had was
8+1/2 and I want 7+1/2. They tried like hell to sell me something
(i knew and told them) I didn't want. BTDT and don't like the
thicker belts. At 1+5/8" wide I don't want it so thick. There was
three emplyees in there and one customer that ended up not buying
anything. They just kept repeating that 8+1/2 wasn't too thick. :(
Besides I like picking it out myself, sometimes you find scars etc
that are cool to have. Others prob'ly veiw them as defects. :/
The old Tandy store had a huge rack of them already cut in different
widths and I could pick through and get a thinner, softer one. Maybe
too much inventory settin'around doing nothing? :/
That dial gauge was pretty cool tho:) but all it's doing is
measureing thickness... do you have a chart that converts to decimal
inches so I could use a verneir caliper or micrometer? Just
guessing I figure the left overs from the half hide I bought in
the 80's is ~9+1/2 oz.
Alvin in AZ
Chas
> Ok, Tandy's basically out of the retail leather-store business. :/
No; 'Leather Factory' bought them; they're online.
> So I guess I'm going to need a picture. :/
http://www.hwebber.co.uk/leather_craft_tools.htm
In the first picture, there's a french skiving knife in the lower left hand
corner next the two arch punches.
http://www.hwebber.co.uk/leather_tools_2.htm
on the right hand low corner next the arch punches.
do you have a chart that converts to decimal
> inches so I could use a verneir caliper or micrometer?
1 ounce (per square foot) equals about 1/64" of thickness.
Chas
alv...@xx.com
> Chas
Crapola, that is one ugly knife handle! :(
Anyway... I believe (at this point) I bought a japanese one from the
second hand store. ($1.50 with wood blade cover) I'll scan a picture
of it and we can go from there ...also there's the other store in
town to go to yet.
Can't see how to copy that knife from that picture but what about
the obvious things like the handle... is a skinny round handle good?
Looks like a guy could make one of those from a file and not draw
the original temper. I want to make one from HSS more tho.
Alvin in AZ
Chas
> > http://www.hwebber.co.uk/leather_tools_2.htm
> Crapola, that is one ugly knife handle! :(
Yeah; I cut mine short; on another I removed the handle completely and sewed
a soft leather grip that forms to my hand and angle of incidence to the
leather. Another is just a slab with strips of leather glued to either side.
I also use the 'head' knife (the half moon one) and the 'half-head' sitting
next to it.
> Can't see how to copy that knife from that picture but what about
> the obvious things like the handle... is a skinny round handle good?
For paring very thin material like book covers, yes. It allows you to skive
past where your other hand is holding the material down- hard to explain,
better shown.
> Looks like a guy could make one of those from a file and not draw
> the original temper. I want to make one from HSS more tho.
Yeah; I've got one made from a wood rasp with a piece of broomstick as a
handle- the angle is half of what's needed, and it's bad for that reason- ya
can't use it enough to find out how it keeps an edge.
Chas
Ed Humphries
> I'm looking for general information on a knife I bought
> "K.TRAGBAR" "SOLINGEN" "GERMANY".
Well, time to summarize what I've learned and finalize this thread
(and make some comments as I go):
First, Thanks Chas. I do know about the general "home shop" nature of
the Solingen knife trade, but your details were worth the read. I
always thought Puma was strictly a factory shop. The knife in
question managed to not rust over (had a couple of small areas of
light rust pitting) before it came back to me - so I just was guessing
it might be SS, high quality carbon S may be just as likely. The
sheath is original and in good shape. The stag is likewise in good
shape. I could wish the blade had been kept oiled properly, but it
cleaned up pretty nicely (I am trying to gently remove some file
or grinder marks someone managed to put on the blade).
Mark South asks me: "So why do you want to know what it's worth?"
What I was looking for (since I couldn't find the information using
the normal internet search options) was some idea of the relative
value of the knife: is it considered a rarity? is it common as dirt?
did K. Tragbar produce them in the 100s or the 1,000s? Knowing the
"value" of the knife would allow me to make sound decisions about lots
of things. Should I stop trying to restore the knife because it is
rare and may therefore someday be worth more in near original
condition? Should I keep it out for display and showing off to
friends and family or lock it up with my collector knives? I might be
inclined to actually use a knife that has sentimental value to me
(carefully of course). But I wouldn't use a collector knife. In fact,
there might be any number of reasons for asking this group about the
value of a knife.
Brian, thank you for looking for the information. Our local
bookstores were "out of stock" on any knife book that might have
helped me (and the local library is useless). Your opinion concerning
the relative lack of collectability is probably sound.
Alvin, my knife is definately German. I don't think you can
interpolate between it and cheap Japanese (or other far eastern)
imports. I am sorry the remaining replies to the thread switched to
talking about dull practice knives!
Summary:
1. Almost no information is available about K. Tragbar knives of this
(or any other) pattern made over thirty years ago.
2. Solingen (Germany) knives of that timeframe are probably just
home-shop curiousities of no collector value.
Thanks to all who contributed information!
Ed Humphries
Atlanta Georgia
alv...@xx.com
> Yeah; I cut mine short; on another I removed the handle completely
> and sewed a soft leather grip that forms to my hand and angle of
> incidence to the leather. Another is just a slab with strips of
> leather glued to either side. I also use the 'head' knife (the
> half moon one) and the 'half-head' sitting next to it.
Starting with that picture...
The blade looks good to you?
Do you want any changes to it?
> > Can't see how to copy that knife from that picture but what about
> > the obvious things like the handle... is a skinny round handle good?
> For paring very thin material like book covers, yes. It allows you to
> skive past where your other hand is holding the material down- hard to
> explain, better shown.
Do you push it straight (with the sides of the blade) and the edge
is cutting/shearing at an angle like a road grader ("blade";)?
> > Looks like a guy could make one of those from a file and not draw
> > the original temper. I want to make one from HSS more tho.
> Yeah; I've got one made from a wood rasp with a piece of broomstick
> as a handle- the angle is half of what's needed, and it's bad for
> that reason- ya can't use it enough to find out how it keeps an edge.
> Chas
Wood rasp, not a wood file? Wood rasp looks like a tiny man put
(lineman's) hooks on and climbed it like a pole? ;) If so;) then
it ain't good. :/ Well, at least every one of those I've spark
tested looked like- cold-chisel/railroad-rail/~1080. (at that
level of carbon it's very easy to get the spark testing right)
Alvin in AZ
Chas
> Starting with that picture...
> The blade looks good to you?
> Do you want any changes to it?
Naw; it's fine.
> Do you push it straight (with the sides of the blade) and the edge
> is cutting/shearing at an angle like a road grader ("blade";)?
Yes; the point leads, the bevel is down so the edge wants to rise out rather
than dig in. You're cutting at kind of a 45 deg. angle, and the edge just
shears off the material. The heel of the edge rests on a glass surface; the
angle of the knife is the angle of the cut.
> Wood rasp, not a wood file?
An old Nicholson; rough cross-cut- too coarse for anything but soft metal or
wood.
Chas
Mark South
news:2fb35da6.04040...@posting.google.com...
> Mark South asks me: "So why do you want to know what it's worth?"
it's true I'm normally blunt :-)
I asked that because you already said its value to you was sentimental.
> What I was looking for (since I couldn't find the information using
> the normal internet search options) was some idea of the relative
> value of the knife: is it considered a rarity? is it common as dirt?
> did K. Tragbar produce them in the 100s or the 1,000s? Knowing the
> "value" of the knife would allow me to make sound decisions about lots
> of things. Should I stop trying to restore the knife because it is
> rare and may therefore someday be worth more in near original
> condition? Should I keep it out for display and showing off to
> friends and family or lock it up with my collector knives? I might be
> inclined to actually use a knife that has sentimental value to me
> (carefully of course). But I wouldn't use a collector knife. In fact,
> there might be any number of reasons for asking this group about the
> value of a knife.
I think it's simpler than that.
If it's a collector knife, and worth something serious, sell it and enjoy
the money.
If it's sentimental to you alone, use it carefully and remember who gave you
your inheritance.
If it's merely good-looking and interesting to you, hang it on a wall
somewhere.
> Brian, thank you for looking for the information. Our local
> bookstores were "out of stock" on any knife book that might have
> helped me (and the local library is useless). Your opinion concerning
> the relative lack of collectability is probably sound.
>
> Alvin, my knife is definately German. I don't think you can
> interpolate between it and cheap Japanese (or other far eastern)
> imports. I am sorry the remaining replies to the thread switched to
> talking about dull practice knives!
>
> Summary:
> 1. Almost no information is available about K. Tragbar knives of this
> (or any other) pattern made over thirty years ago.
> 2. Solingen (Germany) knives of that timeframe are probably just
> home-shop curiousities of no collector value.
I don't believe I've seen someone take the trouble to summarise a thread for
years. You may well be a rare and valuable collector's item yourself sir!
alv...@xx.com
> > is cutting/shearing at an angle like a road grader ("blade";)?
> Yes; the point leads, the bevel is down so the edge wants to rise
> out rather than dig in. You're cutting at kind of a 45 deg. angle,
> and the edge just shears off the material.
Cool, got that one. :)
> The heel of the edge rests on a glass surface; the angle of the
> knife is the angle of the cut.
I sure as heck don't get that one. :/ The glass is -next to- the
leather? The glass has me messed up. :/
> > Wood rasp, not a wood file?
> An old Nicholson; rough cross-cut- too coarse for anything but
> soft metal or wood.
> Chas
Yep, ~1080 and not the best for this job. :/
Alvin in AZ
Chas
> > The heel of the edge rests on a glass surface; the angle of the
> > knife is the angle of the cut.
> I sure as heck don't get that one. :/ The glass is -next to- the
> leather? The glass has me messed up. :/
In order to provide an absolutely flat surface for skiving, it's done on a
big sheet of glass. The leather is flat on the glass, and the surface
provides the reference point for the heel of the knife to lay almost flat,
and cut off the wedge shape of scrap. The main body of the leather then has
a feather edge.
Chas
alv...@xx.com
Oh heck, you mean -thin-! ;) I should've got that one the first
time. :/
Ok, after studying up on "french skiver's" I found out they are the
ones with the "side boards", curved up, with a cutting edge in
between the "side boards". At least that's what the books are
calling them and manufaturers are packaging them as.
The skiver you want copied (i want to copy) they didn't have in
stock and isn't in their catalog (Tandy's new name is Leather
Factory, I guess) but the shop owner got a book out with a picture
and detailed description of use etc. The dangged picture was really
good but the ground bevel was down/hidden every time. :)
The book had a name for the sucker but dangged if I can remember it
now. :/ It was descriptive like "great skiver" or something useless
like that. :/ The complicated, razor blade using, one that looked so
good to me at the other shop, was called a "safety skiver" on the
package.
I don't know when I'll get it done but I'll name the files...
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/Jskiver1.jpg (jap skiver;)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/Jskiver2.jpg
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/Jskiver3.jpg
(etc.)
Don't know if I'll use that many, or more. ;)
That way you can critique the one I have at least... need all the
input I can get... want it to turn out right the first time. If
anything... might be best to grind at too acute of an angle and then
it'd be easier and better for you to hone it down to "just right".
Alvin in AZ
ps- in the leather shop talked to another customer for about an hour
about making knives, he was a retired machinst and had made a
bunch of knives and gave them away as a hobby too. :)
pps- one of them was "lost", along with his friend, when his friend's
plane went down in war
ppps- i'm not sure which war now, dumb of me huh? :/
Chas
> Ok, after studying up on "french skiver's" I found out they are the
> ones with the "side boards", curved up, with a cutting edge in
> between the "side boards". At least that's what the books are
> calling them and manufaturers are packaging them as.
Should be 'French Edger'; meant to take very heavy leather down in the same
way, by cutting a 45 deg. wedge strip off the edge, maybe even to do a box
corner or something. The 'ears' run along the thick edge of the leather and
guide on the top, but same principle. They used to make them in a dozen
sizes and four or five different configurations.
> ....The dangged picture was really
> good but the ground bevel was down/hidden every time. :)
Yup; with the point to the right, the bevel should be down. You don't want
the knife to dig in, but to always want to rise- that gives you control over
the cut.
> ......It was descriptive like "great skiver" or something useless
> like that. :/
They made big ones that were eight inches or more wide. Before there were
large splitting machines, thick hide was pared down to thin, and they used
really big face-bladed skivers for the purpose. On saddlery, for instance,
you want to remove a lot of thickness where the leathers meet the tree, that
sort of thing.
Americans used the big head knives for the same purpose- I have one that is
7" wide, and it's not even considered too awfully big, as it's cutting
stroke is about 3" wide or so.
> The complicated, razor blade using, one that looked so
> good to me at the other shop, was called a "safety skiver" on the
> package.
A skiving knife is dangerous because your hand is directly in front of the
razor sharp edge; you have to keep a tension on the material- it's a leaper,
because the knife can rise out of the material at a soft spot and cut the
shit out of you (first twenty years anyway, it's easier after that ;-))
Fit for children and the elderly.
> I don't know when I'll get it done but I'll name the files...
> http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/Jskiver1.jpg (jap skiver;)
Doesn't load for me, but I think we're probably on the same page.
> .....If
> anything... might be best to grind at too acute of an angle and then
> it'd be easier and better for you to hone it down to "just right".
It has to be snapping sharp, and never touches anything but the finest
leather- it can be as acute as care to. A lot of people have made do with
straight razor blades over the years, doing a pull stroke rather than
pushing- it can be a knife that one takes close care of.
Chas
alv...@xx.com
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/Jskiver1.jpg (jap skiver;)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/Jskiver2.jpg
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/Jskiver3.jpg
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/Jskiver4.jpg
Any complaints about that skiver?
#4 is an un-resampled scan at 345%
And the next one is the first time I ever scanned anything at the
full 3200%... the picture was so big I had to re-sampling it down.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/M2+L6.jpg
Ok, so that's a "preliminary fracture grain size picture" of a
broken power hacksaw blade and a broken circular saw blade...
M2 at the top and 8670-modified (like L6) on the bottom.
HSS is good stuff for knife edges! Believe it? ;)
> It has to be snapping sharp, and never touches anything but the finest
> leather- it can be as acute as care to. A lot of people have made do with
> straight razor blades over the years, doing a pull stroke rather than
> pushing- it can be a knife that one takes close care of.
> Chas
Cool. :) Acute is is good for me and HSS can handle 'em. ;)
Alvin in AZ
Chas
> Any complaints about that skiver?
Never seen anything like it before- it looks a lot like a scribing/marking
knife for wood working.
The angle is a bit acute- needs to be the angle on the French knife picture.
The length needs be like the French one too, you need the length in the
blade body; and in the handle- the handle needs be pretty slim, a stub tang
is usual.
Chas
alv...@xx.com
It's made in Japan for who know what. ;)
The handle can't take much side pressure, it's made for pushing
forward. You couldn't push it so hard with your hand that it'd
break.
> The angle is a bit acute- needs to be the angle on the French
> knife picture.
Ok, just to make sure... what about the "edge angle" in my forth
picture?
Guessing- "can't be too acute as long as it's flat on the top"?
> The length needs be like the French one too, you need the length
> in the blade body; and in the handle- the handle needs be pretty
> slim, a stub tang is usual.
> Chas
The one pictured in the leather shop's book had a similar handle
just slightly heavier duty looking... actually medium-duty looking
as opposed to the light-duty looking handle in your picture.
Do you have a handle to put on it?
What ideas have you got about the handle?
All I'm picturing is a file handle so far. :/
Alvin in AZ
Chas
> Ok, just to make sure... what about the "edge angle" in my forth
> picture?
> Guessing- "can't be too acute as long as it's flat on the top"?
Yup; your present bevel is about as obtuse as will work, seems good.
> Do you have a handle to put on it?
Sure; no sweat.
In fact, better for me to handle it anyway, I can adjust the size and such
as needed.
I'll do a cover/sheath immediately, and it'll never touch anything but
leather again <g>
Chas
alv...@xx.com
> Sure; no sweat.
> In fact, better for me to handle it anyway, I can adjust the size
> and such as needed.
Good point. :) So what about tang shape then?
I could put a round handle on it that's fixed. Just like a butcher
knife with a series of pins, glued down... only round. A little
big (or better yet, the best guess) and you could sand it down or
change the shape of if needed. It'd be a lot classier that way. :)
The way I put a handle on my HSS skinning knife was to mill two 3/4"
1/32" deep slots into two pieces of 3/8" thick micarta and ground
the 1/16" steel down to 3/4" wide and glued it together.
Since then I've been using a 3/4" wide roter bit and a "fence" I put
on the rotor "plate/table?" and use the rotor upside down. I also
have a 5/16" square goove roter bit but haven't used it yet. Could
get a 3/8", 7/16" or 1/2" whatever would fit best and do it that way
and hide the tang completely if you wanted.
Handle material is tricky tho needs to be wood or bone I guess?
Ordered but haven't got it yet from Texas Knifemaker's Supply some
3/8" thick black canvas micarta. Never worked with canvas micarta
before hoping for an improved handle but still like the one on my
HSS skinning knife.
An HSS skinning knife needs to be good it's pretty tough skinning
them HSS's. ;)
> I'll do a cover/sheath immediately, and it'll never touch
> anything but leather again <g>
> Chas
Cool. :)
Alvin in AZ
Chas
> Handle material is tricky tho needs to be wood or bone I guess?
Sure; great- I prefer either to much of anything else.
Flat, short stub tang is fine- give me an inch and a half by 3/8" or so, or
attach a handle.
Sounds great; life is good.
Chas