Wusthof or Henckles?
Edward Gosfield III
knives, and paring knives. The construction of Henckels has been
changed in the last few years (discussed numerous times on this
group). Henckels knives are now using a sintering process to
join/create bolster and handle to tang. I don't know if this has any
practical functional significance. I had a 10" Henckels chef knife
which was crooked by 1/8 inch or so in the long axis. They replaced
it for free years after i bought it, no problem.
I have found that the Wusthoffs have a bit more rock to the blade,
although several i tried had 'catch' spots on the rocker geometry,
where perhaps they were a bit flatter. There are particular models of
Wusthoff available in extra wide blade width (8" and 10" chef) which
provide even more rock.
I like both H. and W.'standard' handle styles because they index
better in my hand. If you extend your first finger along the blade in
the French manner i think the standard handles are more comfortable.
On the other hand, the Henckels modern polyethylene handles are very
comfortable in configuration for standard grip. I don't like the
Wusthoff poly handles much -- to large a diameter and kind of clumsy
looking (well, aesthetics is what it's all about, once function is
taken care of).
I don't think there is a quality difference between them in terms of
function or longevity. You have to try them out and see what you
like. If you really want to go nuts over quality, there are many
custom makers who can make you whatever you want, for bigger bucks.
Also consider Sabatier Commercial (a French line comparable to H and W
in quality) (repped by the same folks who represent Forchner), and
Friedrich Dick, another German company with good forged kitchen
knives.
good luck. The hand is more important than the tool, but good tools
delight the hand.
ted
Scott Witte wrote:
>
> I want the best set of kitchen knives available.
>
> What is the best brand for cutting quality and reliability for years to
> come?
--
-----------------------------------
mailto:egos...@access1.net
Travis Morien
: I want the best set of kitchen knives available.
: What is the best brand for cutting quality and reliability for years to
: come?
The best brand in the world is CUTCO. They have the following features
better than either.
CUTCO use the same surgical grade steel as either WT or H, but they harden
it with an extra step (Freezing and holding the steel below zero for 24
hours)... the steel is harder.
The Handles of cutco have a special ergonomic design, and are made from a
very expensive material called thermoresin, which is not used by any other
manufacturer because of cost, cutco uses it because it is a superior
material to use.
The blade design is nifty as well, they have a special edge called the
"Double D" where the blades are actually between the teeth, instead of the
teeth cutting... so the blades don't hit your chopping board and since
food is too soft to blunt a knife, the double D knives will last 10 years
before needing a resharpening... and Cutco sharpens them for free.. for
ever. The edge cuts neatly like a straight edge knife but more
effectively than a serrated knife... in fact it is the most efficient
design possible, and Cutco has the patents.
the Warranty on WT and H is a limited "lifetime" warranty, which means
that materials and craftsmanship are warranteed such that the handles
shouldn't fall off or anything break, until such time as the blade is so
worn the knife is at the end of its lifetime... Cutco has a "Forever"
warranty, no time limit, free sharpening until hell freezes over, total
guarantee on performance *for ever*... your decendants will be able to
send the knife back and get a brand new one if the cutco knife is
defective 500 years from now! (That is what the guarantee says... black
and white)
And... Cutco is cheaper than WT and H. It is direct sold by university
students recruited as sales reps, it means even though if they would be
30% more expensive than WT and H in retail stores, actually Cutco is more
than 30% cheaper. Cutco is not sold in stores. The company is a member
of the DSA (Direct Selling Association), but unlike other direct marketers
they let the product speak for itself... the sales reps are given some
pretty intense training in sales and the use of knives, but it is company
policy not to be pushy. Pushy people don't make it through the
interviews, Cutco only takes the top 3% of applicants as reps, then trains
them hard.
The Direct Selling approach is probably why it isn't as famous as either
Wustof or Henkels, they are sold in the shops, where naturally they
receive wider exposure.
How do I know this? I am one of those student reps, recruited a couple of
weeks ago, I have just had my first promotion already! they are great
knives for sure, and worth every penny. I had a great weekend and I've
sold almost $2000 worth of knives to friends and relatives.. the one
downside of a sales job is all the driving around.. I have had to work
bloody hard.. but the product is good, and over half of all people who
book a demo with a Cutco Rep end up making a purchase... usually a couple
of knives, but occasionally a full set.
I am in Perth, Western Australia by the way, email me if you are a local
and I'll be more than happy to demo them for anyone interested, otherwise
you will be able to find a local rep through the Cutco site.
Travis (my real name!)
Eric
> The best brand in the world is CUTCO. They have the following features
> better than either.
Odd. A while ago there was a very large thread on these Cutco knives...
end consensus seemed to deem them to be far inferior to Wustof or Henckels.
And, the people in this group seem to know exactly what they are talking
about, and are not educated by the company whose product they are trying to
sell!!!
Neil Blam
the cat out of the bag. Tell you what. I live in New York, and I'm REALLY
interested, but I only want to deal with you. E-mail me when you get to
Kennedy airport, and I'll give you directions to my house.
Neil Blam, (My real name).
Travis Morien wrote: Snip
>
>
>
Mark Linden
>Scott Witte <sjw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>: I want the best set of kitchen knives available.
>
>: What is the best brand for cutting quality and reliability for years to
>: come?
>
>
>The best brand in the world is CUTCO. They have the following features
>better than either.
>
[large snip]
LOL. That was the funniest post I've seen all week. So deadpan ... it's
almost as if you actually believe it.
Travis Morien
:> The best brand in the world is CUTCO. They have the following features
:> better than either.
: Odd. A while ago there was a very large thread on these Cutco knives...
: end consensus seemed to deem them to be far inferior to Wustof or Henckels.
: And, the people in this group seem to know exactly what they are talking
: about, and are not educated by the company whose product they are trying to
: sell!!!
Well, I would seriously like to know what the Cutco deficiencies are
(Serious!), as I truly don't want to be running around flogging bad
knives, but on the face of it it seems Cutco are pretty good...
Cryogenic quenching means Cutco blades are harder (supposedly) than WT or
Henckels... longer time between sharpenings.
I sold some Cutco today to a lady who had a set of 35 year old Henckels,
and the handles had come completely off a couple of her knives, and were
hanging on by one rivet on the others... the Cutco guarantee would let her
get a new knife if that EVER happened to her... Henckels are more
expensive than Cutco anyway... where is the point in that?
The Double D edge cuts really well, unlike a serrated edge which makes a
messy cut...
Can someone help me find this particular Cutco thread in deja then great,
I can't find any definative study having been done over usenet,
gassbagging in the usenet tradition... sure... but nothing great.
Choice magazine (Australia, independent consumer magazine that tests
products) did an artical on knives, and found Cutco to be superior to WT
and Henckels... Maybe some of you should write a few letters.
Seriously, what is wrong with Cutco???
Anyway, I wasn't meaning to come in and spam the group[ with Cutco ads, I
was just surprised to see kitchen knives being discussed here, I would
have thought the emphasis would be more on collectible types of knives...
nothing so banal as kitchen wares.
Travis
Travis Morien
: Wow! You had me fooled. I had no idea you were I Cutco rep. until you let
yeah, gee whiz, I tried SOOO hard to cover it up.
Travis
Travis Morien
: Well,
: I've been looking into this issue for sometime. Alas, I have not found any
: one clear answer. I will report, however, that Zwilling and Wusthoft are
: head and shoulders above Cutco. Cutco are not made of the "same grade
: surgical steel as either WT or ZH" since ZH and WT make their own steel from
: a secret "recipe" they've been perfecting for hundreds of years.
: I think I'm going to go with the Henckles TwinStar Plus line.
I would have thought the thermal treatment would probably have more to do
with the properties of the blade than the steel composition, since the
steel in Cutco knives has been cryogenically quenched, as opposed to water
quenched the structure will be almost entirely martensitic, it wouldn't
matter what the hardenability of the steel, it is unlikely that the
conversion to martensite would be as complete, and any highly martensitic
steel with a high carbon content is going to be harder than a roughly
comparable steel with low martensitic conversion.
Cutco has a Catra machine, one of only 5 in the world, and unless they are
providing completely fraudulant data a cutco knife has 3 times the edge
retention ability of a WT knife. They have all this in the tech data
manual, since it is all in black and white I don't think any of you guys
should have much trouble getting Cutco in a lot of trouble for such
blatant fraud. Either the Cutco blade keeps its edge three times longer
in a Catra test... or it doesn't. I don't give much heed to secret
recipes developed over the centuries.
It is an easy enough test, how long does a WT knife edge stay sharp... the
Cutco manual says in excess of 6 months to 9 months with domestic use. If
you have to resharpen a Henckels knife more often than twice a year, then
it looks like your secret steel isn't up to scratch.
... anyway, I am not here to sell knives, I have looked though dejanews
and it seems all that ever comes up wrt Cutco in this group are dumb
flamewars, has anyone here actually tested the blades, on a Catra machine?
Travis
TXLAZER
<Has anyone here actually tested the blades, on a Catra machine?>
as a matter of FACT yes, I'm sorry to everyone that I've lied to over the past
two years here, BUT my real last name is CATRA,
and we (my family) own and operate the other four "Catra Machines"
i don't know what CUTCO is doing with this machine as we sold it years ago to
a company in NEW JERSEY to TEST the shear strength of salt water taffy. So
Travis unless this company you call CUTCO is using our machine to pull it's
blades APART they are using it wrong.
Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes!
I haven't failed! I just found ten thousand ways that don't work!
jham...@best.com
:> The best brand in the world is CUTCO. They have the following features
:> better than either.
: Odd. A while ago there was a very large thread on these Cutco knives...
: end consensus seemed to deem them to be far inferior to Wustof or Henckels.
: And, the people in this group seem to know exactly what they are talking
: about, and are not educated by the company whose product they are trying to
: sell!!!
Funny. My family has a set of Cutco knives that my mom bought from
some door to door guy about 30 years ago or more. I had no idea they
were still around. We still use the bread knife every day, though the
chefs knife is currently AWOL. We even have a hunting knife, which is
probably some kind of collector's item among Cutco aficionados :-) .
All of the knives still look as new, even with many years of
non-gentle dishwasher washing behind them.
That said, I have never been impressed with them as knives, and NO ONE
is gonna mistake them for Wusthof or Henkels (we have a set of the
Wusthof steak knives). I much prefer to use the Case XX bread knife I
inherited from my grandparents, which is superb even though it must be
40 years old, to the Cutco one.
-james
Neil Blam
bonus, some years back, when I purchased a Popiel's Pocket Fisherman.
Unfortunately for me, the machine included no instructions for use. I thought it
may be for enlarging a certain part of the male anatomy. Put me in the hospital
for eight months.
Neil Blam
Alan Z.
I have a couple of TwinStars (not the plus) knives sitting in one of my
blocks (I let my teenage son use them).
I thought I'd like them, but to be honest, I like a thinner kerfed blade
than the twinstars provide. While it's ok for general use, they are not so
great for delicate cutting, for example making horizontal cuts in an onion
during the dicing process.
They are fine for cutting up pieces of meat, etc, but they were one of the
reasons why I decided to revisit my entire knife collection, and I wound up
being very very happy with Global knives (mostly because of their thin kerf)
I don't see much reason for "never need sharpening" knives... sharpening is
a fairly simple thing to do with tools like the SpyderCo Triangle
Sharpmaker. That and a good honing steel is all that one really needs to
keep knives in fine shape.
Hope this helps.
"Scott Witte" <sjw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:80kk1e$174$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
Travis Morien
: Funny. My family has a set of Cutco knives that my mom bought from
: some door to door guy about 30 years ago or more. I had no idea they
: were still around. We still use the bread knife every day, though the
: chefs knife is currently AWOL. We even have a hunting knife, which is
: probably some kind of collector's item among Cutco aficionados :-) .
: All of the knives still look as new, even with many years of
: non-gentle dishwasher washing behind them.
Hey, whatever is wrong with your chefs knife, your guarantee is still
valid, call a local Cutco office and ask where to send it... any problem
with the knife is covered by the Forever Guarantee, read the text... if
your Chef's knife really is "AWOL" then you are entitled to a new one.
: That said, I have never been impressed with them as knives, and NO ONE
: is gonna mistake them for Wusthof or Henkels (we have a set of the
: Wusthof steak knives). I much prefer to use the Case XX bread knife I
: inherited from my grandparents, which is superb even though it must be
: 40 years old, to the Cutco one.
I have seen Whustof, a lady I did a demo with the other day had a set. I
have no idea what all these people are on about when they call the Cutco
steel inferior to Whustof, IMHO they are just bashing a brand they have
not actually used, I'll tell you what we do when someone has a Whustof
knife....
We sharpen the Whustof knife for them...
We get out a length of Manilla Hemp rope (Cutco reps are supplied with
ropes, coins and leather straps at their weekly sales meetings)...
We cut the rope with the Whustof knife... cuts very well.
We cut it again..
and again...
and again...
and again...
By the 5th or 6th cut the Whustof blade is starting to get very dull, and
it is hard to cut the rope.
Then we take out our chef's knife which hasn't been sharpened for ages,
and cut the rope... 10 times, and it still cuts well. In dejanews I have
been trying to find this fabled discussion rec.knives had where it was
well established that Cutco sucks, and find very little of consequence,
probably a whole bunch of hearsay and theorising about this special secret
formula steel Whustof uses... well I can tell you that whatever they put
in the whustof steel, it is the cryogenic heat treatment of the Cutco
blade that leads to a harder knife... you guys seem to be arguing that
Cutco is bad because supposedly the steel isn't as good as Whustof, but
cryogenic quenching makes a huuuuge difference, and whatever the 11 secret
herbs and spices Whustof puts into their steel are, cryogenically quenched
steel will ALWAYS beat water quenched steel.
Unlike most Cutco reps I am a materials chemistry student... I know more
about metallurgy than the majority of my fellow reps, I have read and
understood the technical data Cutco has if you ask for it, the heat
treatment used in Cutco blades is vastly superior to Whustof heat
treatment, regardless of what their secret recipe steel is composed of.
And by the way, you say you like your Case Cutlery breadknife better,
guess what, Case Cutlery *IS* Cutco, the company that founded the Cutco
brand in 1948 is known as ALCAS, they are an alliance between Alcoa and
Case Cutlery... the Cutco brand is 50 years old this year, but it is just
a new face on an old and very highly respected company... and I really
doubt Alcoa, one of the biggest metal producers in the world, is going to
waste any time cranking out inferior products.
Anyone wanting to get into a technical discussion of the engineering
merits of various knives is welcome to, I have obtained the full technical
data of Cutco knives, it is very high tech stuff... I am impressed and I
am a materials chemist!
And don't get me started on the handle material, Celcon, it is FAR more
durable a material than the reinforced plastics used by Whustof and
Henckels. Celcon is used as high strength dishwasher parts, automotive
gears, pumps parts, door locks and motorcycle crash helmets... (oh, and
bowling balls too...mustn't forget those!).
Technically Cutco is a better brand than Whustof, so where is all this
hard data people keep telling me about that will prove once and for all
the inferiority of the product?
In Australia a full set of Cutco is a full $1000AUS cheaper than a Whustof
set too, purely because of the direct marketting, don't forget a reebok
costs $7.00 to make in an asian sweatshop, the rest goes on big
advertising budgets and hefty retailer markups, something Cutco has never
bothered with, they pour all their money into R&D instead.
Travis
Cliff Stamp
>I'll tell you what we do when someone has a Whustof
>knife....
>
>We sharpen the Whustof knife for them...
>We get out a length of Manilla Hemp rope (Cutco reps are supplied with
>ropes, coins and leather straps at their weekly sales meetings)...
>We cut the rope with the Whustof knife... cuts very well.
>We cut it again..
>and again...
>and again...
>and again...
>By the 5th or 6th cut the Whustof blade is starting to get very dull, and
>it is hard to cut the rope.
I have not used Whustof knives, but have Henckles, and in any case if you
sharpen a steel knife and it fails to cut 5 pieces of hemp rope you didn't
sharpen it properly or its not a steel knife.
I have I think 1" hard poly rope at hand home. If there is interest I could
cut some of it with the Henckles Chef's knife I have and determine the edge
degredation. I doubt it will be significant at that low of a stress.
>Then we take out our chef's knife which hasn't been sharpened for ages,
>and cut the rope... 10 times, and it still cuts well.
I would hope so. To be specific Phil Wilson does rope cutting on his blades
as reference checks. With his 420-J2 blades (kitchen knives) he gets around
18 - 25 cuts before the blade starts to slip during the slice. Note it is
still cutting the rope well you can just notice a little less bite, you have
to be looking for this to see it. It takes a long time before you will
notice any real difficulty.
>cryogenically quenched steel will ALWAYS beat water quenched steel.
No it won't. Make a blade out of 1010 with cryo and compare it to 1095
without it. While the tempering process is important, you can only stretch
the perforamance of the material to the base properties determined by its
makeup.
>I have obtained the full technical data of Cutco knives
Is this for public release?
>Technically Cutco is a better brand than Whustof, so where is all this
>hard data people keep telling me about that will prove once and for all
>the inferiority of the product?
Where is all the hard data proving that blades made out of steel outperform
ones made out of wood? Not finding evidence of something does not mean it is
not true.
--
Cliff Stamp
sst...@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Paul
did a little research on things before they flame others, we may not
have these problems. That catra machines are in fact related to knives
and their sharpness can be seen by examining the following web site:
http://www.gbits.com/catra/
Please do a little research before you make foolish statements like
the one below. It took me 15 seconds to find the reference above by
simply typing 'catra' into www.altavista.com.
Paul
TXLAZER
GET A LIFE!!!
signed GREGG CATA
Brian W Edginton
Paul
Tell us you were kidding......please.
Does the word "satire" mean nothing to you ?
Brian WE
Things will get better....when they finish getting worse.
ICQ #21525343
Paul
>have not found any one clear answer. I will report, however,
>that Zwilling and Wusthoft are head and shoulders above
>Cutco. Cutco are not made of the "same grade surgical steel
>as either WT or ZH" since ZH and WT make their own steel from
>a secret "recipe" they've been perfecting for hundreds of years.
It would be nice if you could back up your statements somehow,
rather than making vague blanket statements that sound more like
personal opinion than anything based on fact.
Paul
TXLAZER
let me see if i can guess what you do for a living!!!!
tic
tock
tic
tock
tic
tock
do you work for CUTCO,
Well, isn't that special, you sound to be managment material
Guy Smith
Paul wrote:
I have been working in professional kitchens for over 20 years and have
never even heard of cutco knives, . Over the years I have used many
knives but my favorites are henckels professional s series, because of
feel, durability and the lifetime no bullshit warranty. If this cutco
brand was as good as they claim why then has no chef I talked to ever
heard of them??? I talked to every cook in my kitchen with over 120
years of experience between them and not one had ever heard of this
brand, yet all were familiar with the wustov and henckles names and names
like Sabatier, Warther, Victorinox, Chicago Cutlery, Boker and Mundial
Henckels does infact have their own mix of steel and if you would look at
their web site you would find that out
http://www.j-a-henckels.com/e/frame_messer.html
regards
Travis Morien
: I think the fact that most kitchen professionals do not use Cutco and would
: not recommend them, says something more compelling than the brochure
: peddling door-to-door salesmen.
Most sporting professionals use brands like Nike and Reebok, does this
mean these are the highest quality shoes available? I hope not, I had a
pair of Reebok once, dreadful shoes.
Whustof is definitely the best *retail* brand, and if you ask any
*retailer* what is best you would hardly expect him to push a brand he
does not and can not stock would you?
The basic Cutco set isn't as comprehensive as Whustof anyway, Cutco has a
"homemaker" set that consists of 10 large knives, and a Gourmet set which
includes a few slicers and cleavers, even together they do not make up the
very wide variety of knives that comprise the entire Whustof catalogue,
knives frequently used by chefs perhaps but almost unknown in homes.
The best brand for chefs may not be the best brand for homes anyway. The
emphasis in Cutco is a product that will last you forever and save you a
lot of time otherwise spent constantly resharpening knives. The double D
edge on the carvers etc cuts more quickly and easily than a straight edge
because it crams more cutting area into a given length of blade, and will
remain sharper a far longer time. A chef has lots of time to resharpen
knives constantly, and won't mind terribly having to replace his
incredibly expensive german knives every few years. The Cutco is built so
that busy homemakers can be freed from the constant chore of sharpening,
or using dull knives, knowing that the handle will never EVER come off it,
or the knife be worn out in any way whatsoever. If a set of Cutco is worn
out after 50 years of domestic use, there is a serious problem, wheras no
set of Henckels or Whustof would EVER last so long.
Travis
Travis Morien
: Paul,
: let me see if i can guess what you do for a living!!!!
[snip]
Why is it that anyone not rabidly flaming Cutco has to be a sales rep?
How come noone endorsing the more expensive knives ever gets accused of
being an agent of Whustof, or a knife retailer who knows his foe?
I find this extraordinary, I doubt there are many people here who have
even SEEN a Cutco knife, and yet you are all so against it.
I can understand you being down on the knives, because of a stream of
clueless uni students coming in armed only with the sales lit for Cutco,
and soundling for all the world like ignorant kids regurgitating a
pamphlet trying to sound knowledgable, but since the Cutco Rep is paid a
presentation fee even if you don't buy, why don't a few of you call a
local Cutco office and have someone over for an hour... should be worth a
few laughs huh guys?
Of the sales reps i know in my city, I seem to be the only one that really
knows anything much about the metallurgy of steel hardening, probably it
is the same all over the world. Small wonder they sound like ignorant
twits, you are talking to some 18 year old doing a commerce degree.
Travis
Travis Morien
:> It would be nice if you could back up your statements somehow,
:> rather than making vague blanket statements that sound more like
:> personal opinion than anything based on fact.
:>
:> Paul
: I have been working in professional kitchens for over 20 years and have
: never even heard of cutco knives, . Over the years I have used many
: knives but my favorites are henckels professional s series, because of
: feel, durability and the lifetime no bullshit warranty. If this cutco
: brand was as good as they claim why then has no chef I talked to ever
: heard of them??? I talked to every cook in my kitchen with over 120
: years of experience between them and not one had ever heard of this
: brand, yet all were familiar with the wustov and henckles names and names
: like Sabatier, Warther, Victorinox, Chicago Cutlery, Boker and Mundial
As a rule, we don't bother with pro chefs anyway, the needs of a chef are
vastly different to those of a home cook. Chefs have time to nurture
their blades, sharpen them and oil them, and the money to replace a full
set of Whustof every couple of years. Cutco last many times longer than
Whustof, if your chef friends haven't heard of Cutco maybe it is time they
did a little research, or called a rep for a demo. I hardly see how it
would hurt anyone just to ask for a free demo, and the rep would still get
paid by the company anyway. You may get a few laughs from what you
perceive to be a pretty poor attempt at knife making, but OTOH, you may be
impressed that there is a brand out there, far cheaper than Whustof or
Henckels, that really is the equal of the more famous brands, and
undeniably superior in terms of durability... which is Cutco's main claim
to fame.
Travis
Travis Morien
: I have not used Whustof knives, but have Henckles, and in any case if you
: sharpen a steel knife and it fails to cut 5 pieces of hemp rope you didn't
: sharpen it properly or its not a steel knife.
This is a big thick hemp rope, very strong natural fibre. half the time
people can't even cut it at all if they don't have sharp knives. I am not
talking about a piece of string here, it is half inch thick manilla
hemp... pretty serious rope.
: I have I think 1" hard poly rope at hand home. If there is interest I could
: cut some of it with the Henckles Chef's knife I have and determine the edge
: degredation. I doubt it will be significant at that low of a stress.
I would be interested to hear about that, please do your test.
:>Then we take out our chef's knife which hasn't been sharpened for ages,
:>and cut the rope... 10 times, and it still cuts well.
: No it won't. Make a blade out of 1010 with cryo and compare it to 1095
: without it. While the tempering process is important, you can only stretch
: the perforamance of the material to the base properties determined by its
: makeup.
Oops, yeah, I was referring to two basically similar steels with only a
few differences in alloying metals of a couple of percent, I was not quite
meaning to say that cryoquenched mild steel would be harder than water
quenched spring steel.
:>I have obtained the full technical data of Cutco knives
: Is this for public release?
I suppose so, it doesn't go into the exact specific details of every
single step, but outlines the alloy makeup, the various heat treatment
steps, the differences between forged blades and stamped blades, the blade
profiles, the material and design of the handle... you want to start a
thread on this? I would really prefer this discussion to move into a
realm of data and engineering specifications, rather than smartass
comments made from people who know only what the read in the previous
flame letter. That idiot's reply about Catra testing is typical of this
"debate".
My motive for entering this discussion is clear, I want to know my product
inside and out, the company tells me all about the pros, but I think I'll
need you guys to fill me in on the cons. I mean, you do know of some cons
don't you? Surely you aren't all just basing your criticism on hearsay?
:>Technically Cutco is a better brand than Whustof, so where is all this
:>hard data people keep telling me about that will prove once and for all
:>the inferiority of the product?
: Where is all the hard data proving that blades made out of steel outperform
: ones made out of wood? Not finding evidence of something does not mean it is
: not true.
i was specifically wondering where everyone is getting their information
on the great inferiority of Cutco products. When I first posted I was
flamed in the group and in email and told the group had already had some
big comprehensive discussion where it was proven, once and for all that
Cutco sucks, all I want to know is... ok, where is this thread? I can't
find it in dejanews... flames and personal viewpoints don't count!
Everyone says Whustof is better... so what is so great about a product
that offers such a limited guarantee, compared to the Forever Guarantee
offered by Cutco?
Travis
Travis Morien
: In rec.knives, Travis Morien <pha...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
: # TXLAZER <txl...@aol.com> wrote:
: # : Paul,
: #
: # : let me see if i can guess what you do for a living!!!!
: #
: # [snip]
: #
: # Why is it that anyone not rabidly flaming Cutco has to be a sales rep?
: The funny thing is that you admit to being one. ;)
Aww jeeze, no shit?
Is paul one too? i don't know... he briefly criticised someone for
inserting a smartarse remark after my posting and immediately someone
followed up by saying he must be a Cutco rep...
Anyway, I am very curious to know about these other knives, what brands to
people reccommend that are available in Perth, Western Australia. I don't
know about America, but over here Cutco isn't all that much more expensive
than Mundial actually, and it is a fraction of the cost of Whustof. Why
does everyone call it overpriced?
Travis
Fred Whitlock
is a knife enthusiasts group. They are quite knowledgeable
about knives and knife steels and most of them have strong
opinions about one type of steel or another. Cutco knives
are good knives. They are well above average in performance
and fit and finish. Here's why you're getting so much flak:
Nobody has invented the perfect knife steel. All steels are
tradeoffs between toughness, hardness, corrosion resistance
and so forth. Different people prefer one characteristic
over another and, therefore, prefer one type of steel over
another. Some knife companies (and not just Cutco) make
claims about the performance of knives that goes beyond
these well known realities. Cold Steel, Mad Dog and Busse
are good examples of this in the specialty end of the knife
industry. While these companies (and Cutco) make good
products, they ascribe to those products performance claims
that are unreasonable and knife knowledgeable people aren't
fooled by it. They still buy Cold Steel, Mad Dog and Busse
knives because they are good products but they complain
about the marketing claims just like they do about the
claims of Cutco.
Reality is that once you get to the high end of the market
(Cutco and Wustoff included) most knives perform fairly
similarly. I know because I'm a knife dealer and have a
drawer full of kitchen knives of almost any brand you can
name (including Cutco and Wustoff.) Personally, I don't use
serrated edges so the Cutco aren't a good choice for me. I
hate sharpening serrated edges and, even though they will
cut when dull better than plain edges, I don't like dull
edges and find serrated edges too difficult to sharpen. The
one exception are the bread knives. I buy and use serrated
bread knives and then discard them when they become dull
(Cutco and Wustoff included.)
You don't need to be concerned about the quality of the
product you are selling. It's a good product. It's
overpriced from my perspective but that's probably necessary
to deal with the unlimited warranty. But to ascribe some
sort of performance "magic" to the knives when comparing
them to others, isn't real. It isn't real for Cutco and it
isn't real for Wustoff. They are made of one sort of high
carbon stainless steel or another like all good kitchen
knives and they perform well like all good kitchen knives.
Don't let it worry you. Relax, take a deep breath and go
get some orders. Take care.
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
Guy Smith
Travis Morien wrote:
> As a rule, we don't bother with pro chefs anyway, the needs of a chef are
> vastly different to those of a home cook.
Then your sightedness has cost you a huge market share, if you product is truly
as good as you claim, which I doubt by the use of your door to door salesman
technique.
> Chefs have time to nurture their blades, sharpen them and oil them, and the
> money to replace a full
> set of Whustof every couple of years.
That's funny. You obviously don't know the first thing about chefs, we are over
worked and under paid, with little time to fuss with our tools, that is why we
buy the best, so we don't have to screw them. We don't cook to get rich, we
cook because we love food, and enjoy making people happy with a fine meal.
> Cutco last many times longer than Whustof,
Really?? I have a Henckels bread knife that was made in the 1860's and still
going strong. I think your lying to me.
> if your chef friends haven't heard of Cutco maybe it is time they did a
> little research, or called a rep for a demo. I hardly see how it would hurt
> anyone just to ask for a free demo, and the rep would still get
> paid by the company anyway.
Send me a 10" french knife and i will demo it for 10 days in a professional
kitchen that cooks 500+ meals a day, and give you and everyone else here a full
Write up on it.
> You may get a few laughs from what you perceive to be a pretty poor attempt
> at knife making, but OTOH, you may be impressed that there is a brand out
> there, far cheaper than Whustof or
> Henckels, that really is the equal of the more famous brands, and
> undeniably superior in terms of durability...
That has yet to be proven. As of right now it is just a gratuitous assertion,
and may be just as easily gratuitously denied.
> which is Cutco's main claim to fame.
FAME would mean that they were known, which they are not.
Regards,
Guy Smith
Paul
>>Does the word "satire" mean nothing to you ?
Satire was not evident from the wording of the text.
Possibly satire could be deduced by someone who is
very experienced in the field. However, neither the
thread nor a majority of the readers here are experts.
As such, they deserve the benefit of the doubt. The
author does a disservice to the members of the group
with the unprofessional response he gave by attempting
to denigrate the character of the original poster.
Sorry if you don't see it the same way.
Paul
TXLAZER
butt butt, eye figured that everyone in that groop nose that i'm stupid and
nose nothing,
so sarre if i thruw you fer a loop, thats a 1st fer me
signed
GREGG CARTA
Neil Blam
Your statement that chefs have the available time to play with sharpening, and
replacing their inferior knives, is ignorant.
I'm not a chef, but consider myself a pro in my field. ANY pro will
quickly find out which tools will work the best for his craft, and which tools
will make his life easier. ANY pro will gladly spend the money to accomplish
the above.
If the line that you tout,( with religious fervor), was what you claim,
chefs would be beating a path to your door, instead of slamming them in your
face.
To suggest that a professional chef has more time to jerk around with
inferior tools then an average housewife is just dumb.
Neil Blam
Travis Morien wrote:
> TXLAZER <txl...@aol.com> wrote:
> : Paul,
>
> : let me see if i can guess what you do for a living!!!!
>
> [snip]
>
> Why is it that anyone not rabidly flaming Cutco has to be a sales rep?
Brian W Edginton
Paul
Well, American "English" is a second language to me. And ,even I,
could see that it was a joke. For God's sake.....anyone who was
posting that stuff for real wouldn't have the intelligence to connect
to the Internet.
mmmmm......might have to rethink that ......
Cliff Stamp
>Cliff Stamp <sst...@kelvin.physics.mun.ca> wrote:
>: I have not used Whustof knives, but have Henckles, and in any case if you
>: sharpen a steel knife and it fails to cut 5 pieces of hemp rope you didn't
>: sharpen it properly or its not a steel knife.
>This is a big thick hemp rope, very strong natural fibre. half the time
>people can't even cut it at all if they don't have sharp knives. I am not
>talking about a piece of string here, it is half inch thick manilla
>hemp... pretty serious rope.
Regardless, it is only rope and you knife is steel. It should not be much of
a strain on the blade to cut it. Of course the knife would have to be sharp
to cut it. I think it goes without saying that knives that are blunt do not
cut well regardless of how well they are made. If you demo a set of sharp
blades against a set of dull ones it is not going to be much of a contest.
Recently to examine how hard carbides effect long term edge retention I cut
up used carpet with a $400 custom blade. After awhile the edge was very dull
from impacts off of the dirt. If I compared the cutting ability of the blade
in that state to a similar $50 production blade the custom would very likely
not come out on top. However I don't think that would be a meaningful
comparison.
The issue of sharpening kitchen knives is overplayed in any case. To be
specific I plan to buy a couple of custom blades for my mother to use in the
kitchen. To this end I bought two Henckles blades (Chef's and paring) to use
so I could use them as references when getting the customs made. I gave them
to her two weeks ago and have periodically examined them to note the
degredation in cutting ability. To be specific here are the results :
Initial performance :
Chef's : 0.73 +/- 0.29
Paring : 2.28 +/- 0.06
After 1 week :
Chef's : 0.66 +/- 0.08
Paring : 2.10 +/- 0.07
After 2 weeks :
Chef's : 0.83 +/- 0.06
Paring : 10.10 +/- 1.40
After steeling :
Chef's : 0.40 +/- 0.05
Paring : 0.87 +/- 0.11
The numbers recorded reflect the number of slices necessary to cut through a
roll of burlap. What is interesting is that after the paring knife was
performing rather poorly after two weeks of use (the blunting was caused by
a rushed preperation of some steaks), and I steeled it its performance not
only recovered fully, it jumped far past the initial. Being surprised I
steeled the Chef's blade, even though it showed no edge degredation, and it
improved as well (to about the same extent, the ratio is constant). The
conclusion reached here is that the blades are not sold with a 100% edge, no
surprise there as any rarely are.
In any case, the central point of interest here is that the blunting was
restored with around 10 strokes per side on a smooth steel, a Raz-R-Steel
from Razor's edge to be specific. This takes about 30 seconds. Once that
stops being effective you simply proceed to a ceramic/diamond rod and wipe
it along the bevels for a couple of strokes. It takes awhile for actually
honing on a stone to be required and this is only a couple of minutes on a
decent benchstone.
>: I have I think 1" hard poly rope at hand home. If there is interest I could
>: cut some of it with the Henckles Chef's knife I have and determine the edge
>: degredation. I doubt it will be significant at that low of a stress.
>I would be interested to hear about that, please do your test.
If I have enough cord I'll cut it until it has blunted significantly, say
50% of max performance. If I don't then I'll just make the 10 cuts.
>Oops, yeah, I was referring to two basically similar steels with only a few
>differences in alloying metals of a couple of percent, I was not quite
>meaning to say that cryoquenched mild steel would be harder than water
>quenched spring steel.
Deep cryogenic treatements do not benefits steels by simply making them
harder. Two maing advantages are that it will both raise the percentage of
austenite transformation to martensite and cause the precipitation of fine
eta carbides that enhance the strength and toughness of the martensitic
matrix.
[technical data of Cutco knives]
>you want to start a thread on this?
By all means, post what you have and we can discuss it.
>I mean, you do know of some cons don't you? Surely you aren't all just
>basing your criticism on hearsay?
No I generally don't do that.
>When I first posted I was flamed in the group and in email and told the
>group had already had some big comprehensive discussion where it was
>proven, once and for all that Cutco sucks, all I want to know is... ok,
>where is this thread?
I don't think you will find a comprehensive comparison between Cutco and a
decent brand of kitchen knives as few people here take Cutco seriously
because of the claims they make that are simply false "serrated knives
cannot be sharpened" etc..
Frank
Travis Morien wrote in message <823esv$n1l$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au>...
>Most sporting professionals use brands like Nike and Reebok, does this
>mean these are the highest quality shoes available? I hope not, I had a
>pair of Reebok once, dreadful shoes.
Now I'm not a professional athlete or professional chef but I've always
thought that a lot of professional athletes are under contract with shoe
companies and get paid to wear their shoes. Professional chefs must buy
their knives.
davi...@my-deja.com
$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
"Scott Witte" <sjw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I want the best set of kitchen knives available.
>
> What is the best brand for cutting quality and
reliability for years to
> come?
>
>
Scott,
Forget about other knives - get Spyderco plain
kitchen knife K04. And if you do not like it I
will buy it from you. Contact James Mattis at
www.chaicutlery.com and get one for about 20 USD
(shipping included). This one is medium size and
there are others available. After you try it I
guarantee you will not want other brands.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
davi...@my-deja.com
"Scott Witte" <sjw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I want the best set of kitchen knives available.
>
> What is the best brand for cutting quality and reliability for years
to
> come?
>
>
Scott,
Contact James mattis at chaicutlery.com and order one for about 20 USD
shipped. And if you do not like it I will buy it from you.
David
Travis Morien
: Travis and other Cutco reps, a question:
: Does your company claim that your knives will last sharper longer than a
: Henckles TwinStarPlus *without* sharpening?
As tested on a Catra machine, yes. In the testing the Cutco edge lasted
three times longer than the nearest competitor.
The Catra machine is essentially a device that cuts a big thick rope in
exactly the same way thousands of times, and tests how long it takes
before the blade is dulled to the point it will no longer cut the rope.
Cutco has a catra machine, there are 4 others in existence in the world.
: If so, I want the data.
I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to get that info, and a whole
lot more just by phoning a local Cutco office.
Travis
Chas
> Travis Morien wrote:
> >I mean, you do know of some cons don't you? Surely you aren't all just
> >basing your criticism on hearsay?
>
> No I generally don't do that.
ROTFLMAO!
You made me drop my cookie, ya'bastard! (old joke punchline)
Chas
Chas
> forget about other knives and get Spyderco plain kitchen knife K04.
I don't follow the model numbers, but Spyderco makes a kitchen knife
group second to none from a professional view. They about as expensive
as any other knives, maybe a little less than the premium brands; a
Japanese name starting with 'M'- memory fails.
Great knives. They got stolen faster than any other brand in a big
commercial kitchen until people stopped bringing them to work (so my
wife says). I traded for various ones over the years and they served
very well- smaller knives, their 'over six inches' knives are a bit
unbalanced for long term usage- very 'oriental' (thin, flat stock
flatground). My wife cuts more in a day than most homemakers do in six
months. She's in gardemanger; the preparation of cold veg, fruits and
meats- works in a cold room preparing premium banquet presentations
mostly; nine boxes of tomatoes, four crates of cabbage, prepare six
boxes of carrots to fingers; that sort of thing (at worst)- at best
she's preparing hors d'oeuvres, sashimi and whatever.
I've gotten her all of the brands over the years; I'm in the business of
knifestuff and I see them. Her faves are still the old distal tapered,
forged 'bolster, tapered tang, carbon steel knives- by far (Henckles.).
She works with an old smooth steel (also Henckles) and I don't have to
sharpen her knives every 90 days. When I do sharpen them, it is with
minimal steel removal and the geometry of the blade allows it to chop,
slice, ream, or whatever until the steel is abraded by the cutting
surface mostly (I would think). None of the stainless stuff has worked
well including ATS-34, 154CM, D2,- only the very thin ground blades from
Spyderco were worth the trouble.
Mostly I have had to replace her knives through theft- there have been
some rivet separation in the newer ones and some wood shrinkage in some
of the very old ones. I've taken some to sell that became attractive
even at silly prices <g> (you remember when those big tapered
sheepsplitters with the heavy swage at the top and the Ace of Spades
brass inlay became so popular? life was good).
Chas
Travis Morien
: I thought so. In other words, the answer is "NO".
I think you should take a literacy course or something, and then rereaed
the previous post where I said. "Sure, call a local Cutco office and they
will give you the info."
Sheeze...
Travis
: Travis Morien <pha...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
: news:82bae6$udd$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
Travis Morien
: # lot more just by phoning a local Cutco office.
: And then what? A sales rep arrives at my door? No, thanks.
Aww jeeze, don't send someone around to show you the knives, you wouldn't
want to actually see the product you are bashing would you? Oh no,
someone would come in and then you would have to actually look at the
product... it was much simpler to flame the product when you have never
seen it, the product itself is not easily bashed when you have actually
seen it. Ignorance is bliss for a flamer.
But no... no rep would come to your house. Cutco is a member of the
direct selling association, meaning they have a VERY strict code of
conduct.
Cutco reps may only see you after consulting you on the phone and booking
a mutually beneficial time. Noone is going to stick their foot in your
door. DSA members are REQUIRED to be honest, non pushy and accepting the
answer no.
There is a good reason why Cutco is kicking Whustof's ass in sales now
worldwide... it is a very high quality product that is the equal of
Whustof in every way, at a much cheaper price. We don't sell by tricking
people into paying deposits or anything like that. we go around at the
booked time, we give a demo that lasts less than an hour... you cut a lot
of food and compare the price of Cutco with the other elite brands,
Whustof and Henckels.
In my time as a rep I have now seen plenty of Whustof and Henckels knives,
up against Cutco they don't seem all that impressive really... just high
quality ordinary knives. I was given such high expectations of Whustof by
the comments in this group, but Cutco is definitely able to hold its own
against these brands.
: Has there been any independent testing done that was not comissioned
: by anyone that might benefit by its outcome. :)
CATRA is independent testing. Look at the Catra website.
Travis
Guy Smith
> There is a good reason why Cutco is kicking Whustof's ass in sales now
> worldwide...
The Geo-Metro has higher sales figures than the Rolls Royce but that does not
make it a better product.
> it is a very high quality product that is the equal of
> Whustof in every way, at a much cheaper price.
You are dead wrong. I went to Cutcos web site and saw for myself that they
sell a very limited selection of cheap stamped sheet metal hollow ground
knives many with Ginsu style serration's. For you to even suggest that Whustof
would produce such a poor quality knife is ludicrous. Even Whustof's low end
cold rolled blades have a superior convex grind, and come in many more blade
shapes and styles.
> In my time as a rep I have now seen plenty of Whustof and Henckels knives,
> up against Cutco they don't seem all that impressive really... just high
> quality ordinary knives.
You say it your self in your own backwards non admitting way that Henckels and
Whustof are of a higher quality. But yes they are ordinary, no digital
controlled, laser guided, artificial intelligence built in, just ordinary high
quality forged knifes, that in my 15+ years as a chef have noted, that many
cooking professionals prefer.
> I was given such high expectations of Whustof by
> the comments in this group, but Cutco is definitely able to hold its own
> against these brands.
ROTFLMAO
Just another completely wrong gratuitous assertion made by a common salesman
with little to no knowledge of knives. Next thing you know you'll be trying to
convince folk how much better Cutco's Bullwhip is compared to the Chris Reeve
Sabenza.
> : Has there been any independent testing done that was not comissioned
> : by anyone that might benefit by its outcome. :)
>
> CATRA is independent testing. Look at the Catra website.
>
CATRA sells sharpening and testing machines, they do not show any
independent testing data on their one page site, so the answer is still NO.
Regards,
Guy Smith
Travis Morien
: Travis Morien wrote:
:> it is a very high quality product that is the equal of
:> Whustof in every way, at a much cheaper price.
: You are dead wrong. I went to Cutcos web site and saw for myself that they
: sell a very limited selection of cheap stamped sheet metal hollow ground
: knives many with Ginsu style serration's. For you to even suggest that Whustof
: would produce such a poor quality knife is ludicrous. Even Whustof's low end
: cold rolled blades have a superior convex grind, and come in many more blade
: shapes and styles.
OIC, you have never seen them before and somehow just viewing a website
means you know the product. I guess you are a tad better qualified than
most of those who knock the product though, most have only *heard* of it
and pass themselves off as experts.
I note that you place a lot of stock in the fact that Whustof are fully
forged knives, this is another example of how ignorance of real facts
leads people to bash the product.
Forged knives *used* to be better, way back in the old days when the metal
producers were not able to produce high quality sheet metal, but knife
makers for decades have known that modern high grade sheet metal stamping
techniques are capable of producing a blade *at least* as good as a forged
blade, and frequently surpassing the quality of the forged product.
the reason is because modern steel making technology can put into steel
sheet metal a more desirable and consistent grain structure for cutlery
than the forging process can generate. With proper heat treatment rolled
sheet generated blades can have a far superior degree of hardness, edge
holding and corrosion resistance.
Many makers of "forged' cutlery now make blades from rolled sheet metal
and butt weld a forged tang assembly onto them, they lable the product as
forged and flog the knife at a premium price to an ignorant public who
care little for metallurgy and engineering and have their own peculiar
perceptions of "quality". Why do you think we have the words "fully
forged" applied to some knives? Forged tang knives are very common among
even the premium brands, they cater to a public who perceive forged to
mean quality, and pay for that. Whustof are "fully forged" knives, and
this is typical of the difference between Cutco and Whustof and other well
known brands.
Don't forget Alcoa part owns Cutco, they have more PhDs in metallurgy than
just about anywhere else, the Cutco product is right on the edge of
engineering technology, wheras Whustof and the others use hundred year old
technology, although no doubt they take great pride in their work and
under the circumstances still make great knives.
Also Cutco has a far more advanced cryogenic hardening process that is
literally 100 years more advanced than the Whustof technology. Whustof
knives are put together well but are quite simply old fasioned compared
to Cutco. The cryogenics hardens the steel and creates a much higher
content of martensite in the blade than the crude dip quenching processes
employed by Whustof, which are altogether unchanged for 100 years!
I can't figure out what your beef with the blade grind is all about, would
you explain that for me pls?
The recessed blade ("double D") is far better in every respect than the
Whustof serrations, what the hell are you talking about? For starters it
cuts very neatly, unlike the ripping and shredding that a serration does.
Although superficially it resembles a Ginsu profile actually it is nothing
like it...
Eye surgeons had double D scalpels before they had lasers, the Double D
recessed blade cuts 20% better than a straight edged knife because of the
greater length of cutting surface per length of blade, eye surgeons had
these because of the very low drag that this blade profile had on the
cornea. try doing eye surgery with a serrated knife... I don't think so.
Also the handle material, they use Celcon (look it up on the web!!) for
the handles, this stuff is practically invincible and is much tougher than
the thermoplastics used on Whustof. Celcon is extremely expensive too,
much more so than Whustof, "cheap" is a highly inappropriate word to use.
:> In my time as a rep I have now seen plenty of Whustof and Henckels knives,
:> up against Cutco they don't seem all that impressive really... just high
:> quality ordinary knives.
: You say it your self in your own backwards non admitting way that Henckels and
: Whustof are of a higher quality. But yes they are ordinary, no digital
: controlled, laser guided, artificial intelligence built in, just ordinary high
: quality forged knifes, that in my 15+ years as a chef have noted, that many
: cooking professionals prefer.
Er no, I never said that, and wouldn't believe it for a minute. I have
met three people in 5 days with Henckels and Whustof knives, the Henckels
knives handles were coming off after only 20 years or so. in fact she had
5 Henckels knives, two had no handle whatsoever, it had long ago fallen
off, she used the tang as a handle. The Second lady I saw had Whustof,
the handles were cracking around the first rivet, she had just had to
replace two of them because of this severe cracking problem. the third
lady also had Whustof, hers were new and hence not falling to bits, but
like all relatively soft steels such as the type 420A used by Whustof they
needed frequent sharpening, every few days. If you think knife sharpening
every couple of days is too much bother for the average person, and want
to save yourself the high maintenance, the Cutco blade remains sharper for
a much longer period than Whustof, many months under average home use. A
commercial chef chopping things all day long should be able to go at least
a week between resharpenings, Cutco steel *is* harder and more resilient
than Whustof because of the high technology used in the hardening.
The Cutco product is guaranteed FOREVER, no time limit, if rivets break
after 50 years or the handle cracks you get a new knife, WHustof does NOT
do that.
:> I was given such high expectations of Whustof by
:> the comments in this group, but Cutco is definitely able to hold its own
:> against these brands.
: ROTFLMAO
: Just another completely wrong gratuitous assertion made by a common salesman
: with little to no knowledge of knives. Next thing you know you'll be trying to
: convince folk how much better Cutco's Bullwhip is compared to the Chris Reeve
: Sabenza.
I am assuming you are just being a smartass there, given that Cutco
doesn't make Bullwhips...
I admit I am new to the field of knives as such, but I just finished a
degree in materials chemistry, I can call myself a physical metallurgist
if I want to and apply for those types of jobs. As a scientist I can tell
you that the materials used in Cutco are far more advanced than the 100
year old traditional methods used by Whustof, the steel is a better steel
and the handle is a tougher material that will take a lot more abuse than
any other material. You are very typical of those that attack Cutco Guy,
you have never even seen a Cutco knife in person, nor taken the time to
let someone show them to you, yet still you can call them cheap and nasty.
I am not surprised though, I have been told a lot of chefs are like you,
when you were starting out you were told Whustof is the best, and by God
you are going to stick with that brand, because no knife could ever be
better than the one you own.
:> : Has there been any independent testing done that was not comissioned
:> : by anyone that might benefit by its outcome. :)
:>
:> CATRA is independent testing. Look at the Catra website.
:>
: CATRA sells sharpening and testing machines, they do not show any
: independent testing data on their one page site, so the answer is still NO.
Are you lookking at "http://www.gbits.com/catra/"?
It says quite clearly there that they offer independent and confidential
testing, which part of independent or confidential didn't you understand
when you saw the site and wondered why Catra doesn't put all the results
of every test they have done on their homepage?
TXLAZER
I'll say this much for you, you have conviction in your writings, cutco does
a good job brain washing.however i dont believe your going to change anyones
thinking with your words!!!!
you have stuck it out 10 times longer than any other CUTCO rep has (congrats)
i'm sure you will do very well selling these knives, however if it doesnt work
out for you let me know!!
I maybe albe to get you into door to door KIRBY vacuum cleaner sales!
SIGNED
GREGG CATRA
(company motto- "WE PULL IT !! SO YOU DONT HAVE TO!!) taffy that is
Cliff Stamp
>modern steel making technology can put into steel sheet metal a more
>desirable and consistent grain structure for cutlery than the forging
>process can generate. With proper heat treatment rolled sheet generated
>blades can have a far superior degree of hardness, edge holding and
>corrosion resistance.
Forged blades can be heat treated after forging to whatever specs you want
thus making forging for knives a shaping process.
[cutco double D edge]
>it cuts very neatly, unlike the ripping and shredding that a serration
>does.
Statements like this is why cutco doesn't get taken seriously. Sharp
serration patterns with smooth transitions like Spyderco for example don't
rip and tear. They will make smooth cuts through foods (and lots of other
materials) quite nicely.
>Eye surgeons had double D scalpels before they had lasers, the Double D
>recessed blade cuts 20% better than a straight edged knife because of the
>greater length of cutting surface per length of blade
For most serration patterns the increase in cutting ability comes from the
angle the edge makes with the material not the increased pseudo edge length.
You get similar benefits with dropped and recurved edges. Of course the
benefits depends on the material being cut, on wood for example you get a
clearing action and increased penetration due to the points.
>eye surgeons had these because of the very low drag that this blade profile
>had on the cornea.
That is interesting. Do you have any references for that?
>like all relatively soft steels such as the type 420A used by Whustof they
>needed frequent sharpening, every few days.
This is a gross distortion unless you are banging the blades off of metal
and/or ceramics constantly, refer to the results of blade wear on two
Henckles blades I posted a few days ago.
Guy Smith
Travis Morien wrote:
> OIC, you have never seen them before and somehow just viewing a website
> means you know the product. I guess you are a tad better qualified than
> most of those who knock the product though, most have only *heard* of it
> and pass themselves off as experts.
I have used a knife every day for the last 18 years in my work. I began collecting
knives 15 years ago. I have seen many bad knives in my time and can spot a bad grind
on a cooking knife from high res picture. Cutco's are hollow ground are they not? a
hollow grind is a vastly inferior way to grind a knife edge. A convex grind such as
you find on a Scagel is much stronger and far superior edge. That is why Henckels
and Whustof do not hollow grind their blades.
But as i said before send me a 10" french knife and let me see for myself. while
your at it send me a 14" Scimitar, a 6" curved flex boner, a 14" Ham slicer, an 8"
Santoku, a 3" birds beak parer, a Chinese veggie cleaver and a 1 lb meat cleaver,
that is if cuto even makes any of these common kitchen knives.
> Many makers of "forged' cutlery now make blades from rolled sheet metal
> and butt weld a forged tang assembly onto them, they lable the product as
> forged and flog the knife at a premium price to an ignorant public who
> care little for metallurgy and engineering and have their own peculiar
> perceptions of "quality".
When I was in Solingen I took the Henckels factory tour. Their top end knives, the
Pro S, 4 star & 5 star knives are fully forged, their low end knives such as the
Gourmet series are cold rolled. And i will be the first to admit the international
line is so bad Henckels will not put their Twins Logo on them.
> I can't figure out what your beef with the blade grind is all about, would
> you explain that for me pls?
Hollow ground blades have a very weak edge that can easily chip and fracture. And
cutco's don't have the weight necessary for long term cutting of heavy root
vegetables. When your slicing a 50 pound bag of large carrots you want the help of a
little inertia.
> The recessed blade ("double D") is far better in every respect than the
> Whustof serrations, what the hell are you talking about?
The only use for a serrated knife is to cut crusty breads, and mushy tomatoes.
> Eye surgeons had double D scalpels before they had lasers,
A serrated scalpel?? I would love to see you documentation on this assertion.
> The Cutco product is guaranteed FOREVER, no time limit, if rivets break
> after 50 years or the handle cracks you get a new knife, WHustof does NOT
> do that.
Henckels and Whustof has a lifetime no bullshit replacement policy. I had a ten year
old 4 in paring knife that some lackey snapped in half prying apart frozen meat, the
knife rep swapped it out no questions asked, just like a Snap-On tool.
> : ROTFLMAO
> : Just another completely wrong gratuitous assertion made by a common salesman
> : with little to no knowledge of knives. Next thing you know you'll be trying to
> : convince folk how much better Cutco's Bullwhip is compared to the Chris Reeve
> : Sabenza.
>
> I am assuming you are just being a smartass there, given that Cutco
> doesn't make Bullwhips...
You should learn your product better, the Bullwhip is on the Cutoco site under
"hunting/sporting" http://www.cutco.com/main/bullwhip1.html
> I admit I am new to the field of knives as such, but I just finished a
> degree in materials chemistry, I can call myself a physical metallurgist
> if I want to and apply for those types of jobs.
So the bottom line is you have ZERO experience. Having book learning does not make
a metallurgist you need some real world experience, and you need to pay some dues.
Respect is not given it is earned. I've seen plenty of book learned rookies fresh
out of culinary school fall flat in the real world.
> As a scientist
A might presumptuous of you don't you think?
> I can tell you that the materials used in Cutco are far more advanced than the 100
>
> year old traditional methods used by Whustof,
The materials used in making a Reminton Nylon 66 are far more advanced than those
used in making a Steven's 44 1/2 that does not make the Reminton a better rifle.
> I have been told a lot of chefs are like you,
Chefs demand perfection, and cutco ain't it.
Fred Whitlock
and lacking in value to everyone on the newsgroup.
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
Travis Morien <pha...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
news:82i6gj$9vd$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
> :> lot more just by phoning a local Cutco office.
> :>
> :> Travis
>
>
Ted Martin
> The recessed blade ("double D") is far better in every respect than the
> Whustof serrations, what the hell are you talking about? For starters it
> cuts very neatly, unlike the ripping and shredding that a serration does.
> Although superficially it resembles a Ginsu profile actually it is nothing
> like it...
No one has mentioned using serrated knives, except for say, bread knives. In
fact, most people have attacked all serrations, including doble d, etc, for
making it harder to sharpen, etc. Anyway, a lot of eye surgeons used, or
still use, chipped obsidan blades that aleuts make. Incredibly sharp, very
little scarring, etc. They don't make good kitchen knives. The chipping
process does make a shape kind alike double d, but that's not the advantage,
the advantage is the blades are incredibly thin.
Christian Romanowski
<pha...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> schreibt:
>There is a good reason why Cutco is kicking Whustof's ass in sales now
>worldwide...
Where in Germany can I get this miracle knife?
I'd like to test it!
Christian Romanowski