Pfaff walking foot or old industrial - Beginners sewing Machine
Ben
I'm wanting to start making kites (Rowlands flowforms) and I need
help choosing a sewing machine.
Do I buy a Pfaff walking foot model 1524 (cheapest IDT (walking foot))
or do I buy an old industrial straight machine such as a Singer 291U? I
can pick up on of these for about half the price of new Pfaff.
It seems that people either love the walking foot or think it is a waste
of money that could be spent on something else.
I would appreciate your help.
Cheers
Ben
BillP
Ben, both machines have their good and lesser points, but the walking
foot is, by far, a great thing to have when sewing Rip Stop Nylon....
plus the Pfaff has the zig-zag stitching and possible the triple zig-
zag as well..... good stuff!!
NPWBill
Andrew Beattie
Real man use straight stitch. Only.
But a walking foot rocks.
Nothing beats my walking foot industrial :-)
Andrew
Ben
>
> .
> Ben, both machines have their good and lesser points, but the walking
> foot is, by far, a great thing to have when sewing Rip Stop Nylon....
> plus the Pfaff has the zig-zag stitching and possible the triple zig-
> zag as well..... good stuff!!
>
> NPWBill
Thanks Bill,
The only other question is will a domestic Pfaff go through double
thickness dacron for the bridle line attachments?
Ben
John
ease. The motor is quite powerful.
I can only assume the newer machines are at the least, superior.
John
BillP
My 1213 does just fine in "several" layers of material... 8+ and more.
Does a real man's job, too!
NPWBill
Ben
>
> .
> My 1213 does just fine in "several" layers of material... 8+ and more.
> Does a real man's job, too!
> NPWBill
Thanks Bill,
Now the thread question, DIN-40 polyester?
Ben
Larry Green
We have an 80's vintage Pfaff 1119 and it sews through two layers of
dacron, a layer of ripstop and four layers of bias binding tape like the
proverbial hot knife through butter (and no walking foot on that model
either!) The trick is to make sure you use a sharp needle...a new one
for every kite!
We also have an 80's vintage Viking that has the advantage of a 'low
gear' option. It has a reduction gear that is selectable by a pull out
knob and that will give full motor torque at roughly 1/4 of the normal
speed. We use that if we are sewing webbing to a kite as it will easily
cope with two layers of webbing and ripstop and it never falters at all.
--
Larry Green
EKF Newsletter Editor
EKF Co-webmaster
http://essexkites.studio1.net
Larry Green
Without doubt the best thread I have ever found for kite making is the
#33 nylon supplied by Kitebuilder.com.......
......it is super strong, rot proof, smooth as silk, lint free and now
available in a range of colours.
I have a cone of two strand polyester and I don't like it anywhere near
as much as the single strand #33 nylon. It only gets used when I need
white thread but the next cone of white thread will be #33!
Ben
>
> Without doubt the best thread I have ever found for kite making is the
> #33 nylon supplied by Kitebuilder.com.......
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cbwtz
>
> ......it is super strong, rot proof, smooth as silk, lint free and now
> available in a range of colours.
>
> I have a cone of two strand polyester and I don't like it anywhere near
> as much as the single strand #33 nylon. It only gets used when I need
> white thread but the next cone of white thread will be #33!
>
>
I am finding it very difficult to source anything related to kite
building locally. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Ben
kit...@hotmail.com
Ben wrote:
> Now, if only we had kitebuilder in Australia...
> I am finding it very difficult to source anything related to kite
> building locally. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Ben
Ben
Where in Australia are you? If in the Eastern states, I highly
recommend Mike Richards at Kite Site, Coogee, NSW
http://www.kitesite.com.au Actually Mike is good for people anywhere
in Australia.
In Perth, I'd recommend Neil Taylor at Hold the Line Kites
http://members.iinet.net.au/~htlk/
As for sewing machines...how long is a piece of string? I have a
bernina 950 industrial and love it. Mind you, I went the industrial
path because I was making kites in large quantities, and needed a good
robust workhorse. I've made approx 600 kites sport kites on the 950,
it has never missed a beat and the sewing finish is exceptional. BUT,
I know plenty of amateur kite makers who use good quality domestic
machines (Pfaff walking foot machines are a favourite) and they also
yield great work. Plus they have electronic motors (not clutch motors
like the industrials) and give really good sewing speed control. If I
was choosing to make kites as a hobby, I would buy a Pfaff domestic.
Hope this helps
Kevin
BillP
My buddy, Larry Green and seamstress wifey, Karen, are in my opinion, a
couple of he better kitemakers around today... I've seen the quality
work from them using good and BAD machines and it's better than anything
I ever HOPE to turn out. I own several made by them. But I digress...
ALL of Larry's kites are made using the #33 thread he mentions. Good,
tuff, and quality stuff...
Really hope ya can score some down there!!
Cheers!!! NPWBill
Ben
Thanks, this does help. I have been talking to second hand
sewing machine shops, without exception they all say that *NO* current
domestic machine will do the job.
The recommendations I have had include the Pfaff 1222E (old classic but
difficult to find), Pfaff 1245 industrial or a Typical GC6-7 (1245
clone). These two machines have the a compound (needle & walking foot)
feed.
However, they none of the shops have any experience with sewing
ripstop / dacron. This is why I asked the question as I am getting a
lot of conflicting information as to what will & won't work. One shop
suggested that the recent domestic Pfaff's wouldn't take the punishment
due to the large number of plastic components. The reason he liked the
1222E was that it had an industrial hook & base.
Some of the replies have mentioned older domestics that work well, I'm
just wondering if the new ones are constructed to the same standard.
There's a large difference in price with the 1524 about $699, the
Typical (second hand) ~$1800 and the pfaff 1245 $++++.
Here's what's currently available new
Pfaff 1524 ---> http://www.pfaffmachines.co.uk/Pfaff/InStyle.htm
Typical GC6-7 ---> http://www.
typicalwpchina.com/eBusiness/EN/product_detail.asp?catalogid=2&productid=49
Pfaff 1245 ---> www.industrialsewmachine.com/webdoc1/pfaff/pfaff1245.htm
Does anyone have any experience with the newer domestic pfaffs? Are
they up to the job?
As it is only a hobby for me I'm reluctant to go to the industrial
unless it is necessary.
Yes I am on the east coast, Melbourne.
Ben
Larry Green
I understand your problems Ben. I am actually in Canada and it is very
difficult to source any kite making materials anywhere in Canada. I have
to import virtually all my materials from the USA.
I know Steve at kitebuilder is more than happy to ship internationally
and I can't imagine that the postage on a couple of spools of thread
would be that extortionate.
I wish you luck in your sourcing endeavours but have you Googled for
thread suppliers in OZ? I am sure there must be sources out there. I
also read and post to the 'alt.sewing' newsgroup and there are a few
Antipodean posters on there so sewing supplies must be available
somewhere down that way.
Larry Green
Snip
>
> Does anyone have any experience with the newer domestic pfaffs? Are
> they up to the job?
> As it is only a hobby for me I'm reluctant to go to the industrial
> unless it is necessary.
>
Ben, I am not sure if you are aware but 'new' Pfaffs are not Pfaffs at all!
Amongst Pfaff users around the world (of which I am one) there is a
feeling of despondency over the demise of this once wonderful brand. A
couple of years (or so) ago Pfaff was bought out by Husqvarna Viking who
then proceeded to dismiss the vast majority of the German workforce and
literally ordered whole warehouses full of spare parts around the world
scrapped. I have read posts on the 'old pfaff pforum' from a former
Canadian employee at the Toronto warehouse where he recounted tipping
box after box of spare parts into a dumpster to be melted down or
'land-filled' while a Viking 'manager' stood by and counted every box
that was dumped! This information is readily available online with a
Google search.
A new Pfaff is a Pfaff by badge only. They are built in the far east and
bear no resemblance to the pre-Viking Pfaffs of legend.
If you really want a *good* machine for hobby kite building I will offer
you the following advice. Check out your local sewing machine shops,
'yard sales', estate sales and thrift shops and check the for sale ads
in your local newspaper (you could even check Ebay but they go for
'silly' prices on there). What you are looking for is a pre-1990 sewing
machine with an all metal body and with metal 'innards' that is in good
condition and has been looked after. They are out there and at a
fraction of the cost of a new one. You do not need a bunch of fancy
stitches as you only need a straight stitch, a zig-zag and if possible a
'three stitch zig-zag' for kite building. I would suggest you also look
for a machine with a vertical, front or end mounted, bobbin as I have
found these to be far more reliable than the 'drop in' horizontal type.
As far as makes are concerned look for Pfaff, Viking, Bernina, Elna or
Singer (but only if it is a pre-1960 Singer!). These are all excellent
machines that built up a huge reputation based on the quality of their
products. A good machine from the above list will still outlast a new
Pfaff (or any current machine come to that). If you are new to sewing
machines I would suggest you get your 'find' serviced as soon as you get
it in order to return it to it's former glory. It may not be necessary
if the machine has been looked after and cared for but if it has been
standing unused for a couple of years it would pay to get it serviced as
sewing machine oil can 'gum up' over time and turn the lubricant into a
very effective glue!
When you 'find' a machine try to give it a 'test drive' before you buy
it. Take along a few pieces of ripstop and a spool of thread (any sort
will do for testing) and check that the machine handles the fabric
without slipping and that the stitches (all of them) are formed
correctly without missed steps or big loops. Now, bear in mind the
following while you are testing. Poor feeding of ripstop could be caused
by worn out 'feed dogs' (the 'teeth' that go up and down below the
presser foot) and in 'most' cases these are a replaceable item. Loops or
missed stitches could be a simple case of incorrect tension in the upper
thread route (an easy fix) or an incorrect tension in the bobbin race
(fixable but with caution for newbies.. see links below for more info)
or a bent needle (always check the needle and use a new one for each
kite you build). While testing listen to the machine while it sews. It
should 'purr' if everything is working as it should so be aware of any
repetitive 'clunks', 'squeaks' or 'knocks' as it could be a good
indication of something in need of 'attention'.
With regard to walking feet, yes they are helpful in certain
circumstances but I do not have one on any of our four machines and both
myself and my wife can sew ripstop nylon without any problems (it just
takes a little practise). Walking feet are available for most of the
above makes as an 'extra' and they simply replace a standard foot but I
found them to be clumsy, large and they get in the way of seeing what
you are doing in my opinion (especially if you are doing the intricate
applique work which makes up most of our kites). The built in Pfaff foot
is a different beast altogether as you cannot even see it from the front
of the machine.
If you are new to sewing (especially kites) I would recommend you also
look at the following links.........
Hope all the above helps and shout up if you have any more questions.
Ben
Excellent post, this one should be bottled.
Thank you, this finally gets to the core of the problem! All the
information I have received now gels together. We are finally talking
about the same thing, that is 'old' machines. The new ones are
obviously to be avoided, and this is what the sewing machine mechanics
were telling me.
As it so happens, I have just managed to secure a Pfaff 1222E from a
lady who had just reconditioned it for her daughter but decided to sell.
Thank you all for your contributions, I look forward to building my
first flowform in the next few weeks. I'm sure that will generate some
more questions. I'll post a photo link when I get it flying.
Ben
>>fr333zin<<
If you can afford it, the Pfaff walking foot is a very good machine for
ripstop. I've had one for a while (replacement for reasonable quality
Janome) and wouldn't go back to a non walking foot. It pulls the material
through straight without slipping. (luxury)
Best way to decide is try them both out if you can. Any reasonable
shop/dealer will let you do this - take in some ripstop to play with and get
stuck in. I was lucky to get my Pfaff secondhand from a specialist shop.
If I read right, that Singer 291U is straight stitch only. For kites it
will help you to be able to use a zigzag stitch sometimes (zigzag on minimal
feed becomes a bar tack) and a 3 step zigzag can also be useful (eg, closing
rolled over seam on rear of Peter Lynn pilot).
Are you near any kite clubs where members may be able to help you/let you
try their machines?
enjoy choosing and be sure what features you need to have to build the kites
you want
fr333zin
"Ben" <debia...@blueturtles.com> wrote in message
news:4324c105$0$22119$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Larry Green
> Larry Green wrote:
>
>> On 9/13/05 4:21 AM, Ben wrote:
>>
>> Snip
>>
> Excellent post, this one should be bottled.
LOL...thanks for that.
> Thank you, this finally gets to the core of the problem! All the
> information I have received now gels together. We are finally talking
> about the same thing, that is 'old' machines. The new ones are
> obviously to be avoided, and this is what the sewing machine mechanics
> were telling me.
> As it so happens, I have just managed to secure a Pfaff 1222E from a
> lady who had just reconditioned it for her daughter but decided to sell.
Whoo Hoo.....good for you! That is the Rolls Royce of sewing machines as
far as kite makers are concerned. It was one of the later 'real' Pfaffs
with a solid metal frame and the built in dual feed (walking foot). The
1222E dates to about the time when sewing machine manufacturers
worldwide were switching over to 'plastic' parts instead of all metal
frames and internals. The only bad thing I have read about the 1222
series was a problem with the cam stacks (the things that change the
stitch shapes). The original was made from a nylon material but at some
point they changed to a plastic part that was prone to breaking and they
switched back to nylon again after that. From what I could gather 'most'
of the plastic parts were changed out under warranty so the chances are
you have one of the good ones with the nylon cam stack.
Your machine can only go up in value as the scarcity increases with time
so take good care of that baby and treat it well ;-).
> Thank you all for your contributions, I look forward to building my
> first flowform in the next few weeks. I'm sure that will generate some
> more questions. I'll post a photo link when I get it flying.
Feel free to ask whatever questions you may have. This newsgroup has
many knowledgeable kite builders from across the globe and seeing as it
is a non-binary group a link to a photo is perfect.
Andrew Beattie
> rolled over seam on rear of Peter Lynn pilot).
Odd that. Peter Lynn's own machine only does straight stitch.
Andrew
>>fr333zin<<
Please, as you are cleverer than me, provide a better example for a novice
of where 3step may be used :O)
Stuart
"Andrew Beattie" <Andrew....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126676942.6...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Andrew Beattie
Why would you sew it twice?
> Please, as you are cleverer than me, provide a better example for a novice
> of where 3step may be used :O)
Hmmm... Embroidery on the fliers shirt, perhaps?
I have had a machine which did 3-step zig zag, but I broke it.
My current machine does 9mm stitches, handles fat thread, can buzz
through 2000 stitches per minute, has auto-backtack and thread cutting.
When it arrived, the sample under the walking foot was 8 layers of
denim.
It is capable of doing all the stitches I require for kite making
listed below:
- Straight stitch
- Err...
- That's it.
Andrew
>>fr333zin<<
someone else out
"Andrew Beattie" <Andrew....@gmail.com> wrote in message
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